What is the best way to cut a black walnut for gun stock blanks? What equipment will be needed? Is it better to have someone else do it? We have some trees on our farm that I would like to have gunstocks made from.

It's better to have someone else do it.

It will need to be sawed to 3" thick slabs, and then processed in to stock blank sizes

the ends will need to be sealed with Anchorseal or similar parrafin based alternative to keep the end grain from cracking.

They will need to be stacked out of direct sunlight, out of direct wind, but not in a cold damp area

They will need to be stacked on spacers or "stickers" so that air can flow freely around all sides.

They will need to be rotated from the inside out every 3 months or so to be sure that the ones in the middle don't stay too damp.

Next you'll need to figure 1 year per inch of thickness to dry + 6months each if you're in a relatively humid climate.

Most stock-makers hate touching a blank that is less than 10 years seasoned. Yes, it'll be dry in 3-4.5, but the wood then needs to be left for a few seasons to go through all the temperature and humidity changes. This relieves the internal stresses and prevents the stock from twisting or cracking when it is machined.

Yeah, you could have someone slab it, then kiln dry it, but you still have to season it, and Kiln drying kills all the colors in Walnut. It goes from purpled, browns, greens and reds to just a flat dull brown.

Who does this in the midwest?

Check your local woodworking outlets

Rockler
Woodcraft

they'll usually have bulletin boards filled to the brim with business cards and local services.

you might also try posting on www.woodnet.net/forums with where you are and what you want done. There is a pretty big network there too.

If you do have them sawn, just be sure to seal and stack correctly or they'll ruin quickly.

My understanding is that the gunstock blanks come right out of the very bottom of the tree--cut it off at standard logging height and all you have is shotgun blanks with the buttstocks still in the ground.

To start with the trees need to be bigger than most folks realize... Small trees do not make decent blanks. Further, trees grown in production-style "groves" tend to be tall and straight... and totally lacking in figure. It is what the furniture makers want for consistent color and grain to minimize matching while running large groups of identical furniture parts.

Savage gave lots of good advice, but there are a couple points to refine. Walnut is not made bland by kiln-drying, but rather by the steaming most mills run it through to relax tensions in the wood and make the colors uniform, again for production furniture making.

The whole concept of kiln-drying is not to speed up the drying process, but rather to slow it. Wood left in the open will lose too much surface water, too fast and the wet, full-size inner wood will prevent the outer wood from shrinking, setting up intense stresses.

Understanding where the good figure comes from help you assess what you actually have on your stumps. It is not always easy to visiualize...
art

utah708
That is mostly correct, but there is lots of highly figured stuff up in the tree. Almost all crotches are well above grade... Browning Gran Lightning Clitoris have wood boardsawn directly under a branch with "Vee" ripples of curl... a consistent, reliable pattern and source...

When you get into English walnut groves the marbling is often well up the tree where spalting started in on branches damaged during nut production and traveled to the bole.

A side note as a result of thinking about the branch comment... DO NOT cut stock wood from branches! It is juvenile reaction wood and will not produce stable wood.
art

It can be done though. A relative cut some blanks out of 'Birdseye' sugar maple in the U.P. of MI over 15 yrs ago. Just this last spring we got the matching rifles & stocks completed. We started with Remington 700s & went with a Shilen 24" barrel in 22-250. The smith/rifle maker sure did ask a lot of questions as to the age of the wood & how it was dried/cured. I had to assure him a few times that we would take responsibility for any cracking after the stocks were made. It turned out very well.

Do some looking around on simply marketing the trees. Part of the deal could be some stock blanks. Those in the wood business can realize a tree's full potential and possibly generate more dollars for you. A friend back east (WVa) sold about 25 large standing trees. Had that money been mine, I would have retired about 5 years earlier.

If it's truly fine wood, look at 6 to 9 years of air drying time before getting out the chisels.

Edited: I reinforce that one should seek out others with experience. Unless one has a wealth of trees, his first efforts are going to be research into the unknown, and it will be hit or miss on potentially generating good products. Given the potential value of fine walnut, mistakes can leave one with nothing but pile of nice smelling kindling.

I worked with a guy one time that sweared that they soaked hardwood in a pond for years, but he also used to speak of turning a house around on a bowling ball. I did stack hay up in a barn loft one time that had a big supply of walnut stored in it. The owner said that it was the best place to store it for years. I would think that the center would be important to prevent warpage in the finished stock. Fajen and Bishop stocks were made in Warsaw, MO. I think that Fajen is still in business somewhere. Good luck.

Wood does not rot if the moisture content is below about 20% or above about 35% (very rough range with lots of variation) and it is common practice to store logs underwater, long-term and it improves the wood.

I am sorry to report Fajen is defunct...

Look at the cost of the rock maple they're pulling out of shipwrecks in lake superior. Wood can be stored in water COLD water. Warm does nothing but speed the process

Not sure where that info comes from, but temperature is not an issue... pH and oxygen are issues. Much wood in log form is currently stored in very warm water.

Either way, it's best to call around.

Woodmeizer is a manufacturer of portable sawmills and they keep a list somewhere of registered owners. That and woodnet.net is a good start.

Post what you are looking for. You'll also need the dimensions of the trees. When sawn, I believe stock blanks are 3" thick x 32-34" long, 7" wide at the butt, tapering to 2" wide at the forearm tip.

I have a Mesquite Log 22" in Diameter, and 6' long, and may get 2-3 usable blanks out of it.

The pith must be avoided as it is the most unstable, and there can be some sapwood on the outside, as long as you're sure it will be machined away.

Listen to sitka about branch wood. It's barely suitable for pens, pencils, and bottle stoppers.

It is common to let the tree soak in a lake of a long period of time before you cut and dry it..

But IMO, when your finished what have you got? Black Walnut!!!, not a wood I would normally use except for collector Win. rifles perhaps..I have seen some pretty nice black walnut over the years but 98% of it was mostly Mo. cork wood raised under too mild of conditions...

IMO European walnut from Turkey, Tajikistan, Russia, is presently todays best wood and inasmuch as its a lot of work making a stock, might as well use the best of wood. Same thing with a gun barrel, use the best, that ain't the place to go cheap..

BTW, you can buy cured Black walnut cheaper than you can raise it! You would be better off selling the tree.

Sitka,
didn't know Browning made 'Clitoris'! is that a non-catalog item?

Best gunstock walnut comes from large, old trees, of English or French genetics, felled before they begin to die, lose production of nuts, and rot inside.

They usually are growing in the middle of a field, with thick trunks and spreading branches. Instead of cutting such a tree at the stump, it would be excavated, the limbs removed one by one (maybe by small crane), then pulled over with a chain and bulldozer, in order preserve the crotch at the limbs, and the burl figure at the roots.

A tree like that, bought by Dakota, Beretta or Purdey, would cost $20,000 or more, standing. It would yield $100,000 or more of blanks and pistol grip wood. Today, the cutting would be planned by computer after x-raying the log, and replanned as it was cut into, using saws with as narrow a kerf as possible.

Sorry, just a slip of the tongue.... er.... typing finger...

Lee
And I bet you learned all this on your family walnut farm with exquisite trees of new-to-the-World walnut species...

A clue... you haven't one...
art

Just have to bump this post to the top! TFF!

John

Hey that's the way they did it in Lee's Enchanted Forest.

You kids probably think your gunstocks were cut from a Tupperware tree.

No Lee, we think you are "Special"...

EDMHUNTER,

I know there is emotions (your farm and home grown) involved in this and hoping not to offend them. My advice is call a good woodcutter and sell the trees to him. Then take the money and buy the blank you want from a stockblank seller.

Your wish to do this yourself is admirable but save yourself a lot of time and grief.

You get to choose and what ever you do will be right for you. Above is what my experience says is prudent.

You are right but I also wanted to make other things with the wood. I was also thinking about cutting some of the big oaks for projects. I am not doing it for money just for the memory's. I will have to get one of those clit guns to put it on!

Hmm? I always thought black walnut smelled similar to the quashed Grand-daddy long-legs we played with as kids. Nice smelling? NOT to me!

Good advice, LRE. Sell that black walnut tree and use the money to buy finished stock, semi-inletted stock, or high grade blank of cured English or Claro walnut.

LRF
Practical is not an issue on many of these things but I understand exactly what you are saying. As he has other projects, other designs he will obviously go with them....
art

There is also something about quarter sawn and other types of sawing, if you take the logs to a sawmill.

I don't know what these methods of sawing are. I read about them and saw pictures of them in books.

Quartersawing rips the log lengthwise down the middle, then rips each half in half, so you have 4 quarter lengths.

Each of those is laid bark side down on the table with the point (center of the tree) facing up at 90 degrees. Then boards of increasing width are ripped off this quarter log.

This has almost no waste except the sawdust, an the kerf can be kept narrow because you can use a bandsaw. The different angles of grain produce interesting figure in the boards. And the wood is more stable than just ripping straight down the entire log.

Another classic hit from Lee!!!!!!!!! He must have Googled the 1940 version of "lumbering" in America! This after posting how the log would be X-rayed and cut "Best Board Next"... Though he had/has no clue what that actually means.

Newsflash for those interested... Quarter sawing is the most expensive standard form of sawing because it WASTES a LOT of wood. Seldom is it done as described.

"Through and through" is the most probable, reliable and now they find, most efficient way to cut most logs. The slices through the center of the tree are quartersawn... growth rings are perpendicular to the sides. Because wood moves more from side to side than from center out it reduces total wood movement in a board/blank.

Because stocks may be positioned at an angle in the blank (especially if cut a full 3" thick!!!) quartersawn stocks are easier to get through positioning than when locked into a thin blank...

In general, boardsawn works best for displaying marbling in great blanks and quartersawn works best for most all else, especially fiddleback which almost disappears on boardsawn surfaces.
art

For what it is worth, the following may be the most true statement in this thread:
IMHO

Indeed. Glad I read down to see you had once again handed Lee his ass. Quartersawn is indeed the most wasteful and most expensive way to cut a log. Pretty much any woodworker of any experience can tell you that.

I dearly love working with 1/4 sawn white oak but the price keeps me from building anything more than about once a year with it. Let's not get into ammonia fuming to bring out specks and rays or we'll be subject to more Lee "knowledge"

Pugs,
Try quartersawn Sycamore sometime.

I'll take a look at my couple local providers. Thanks for heads up, I've not used it before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUEsjXeFj4

amazing... dude just won't shut up about chit he doesn't know.

Quartersawn sycamore can be gorgeous and lacey, but tends to be quite unstable... If you use it I suggest going at it in stages when surfacing and giving it some time to stablize....

I would suggest skip-planing immediately when you get it and stickering, weighted, for as long as possible before use, as a minimum.
art

???????
Quartersawn Sycamore....wasn't difficult to work with at all!

had to laugh at Lee's treatise myself....


here's a great video showing the degree of waste in a quarter sawn log: (from the Taylor guitar wesite)

http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/features/woods/Videos/video.aspx?file=Spruce_2_High.wmx

couple videos here walking through various cuts of spruce,koa,maple, etc. (maple and grafted walnut may be most applicable)

http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/features/woods/Videos/

LRF
Very nice!

Treating wood properly while drying will allow unstable stuff to be used, as you clearly show, but get a little careless at any number of stages and your gorgeous sycamore becomes firewood.

But I do love the look!
art

Sitka, you have obviously have not time at the sawmill. I have to call you down for peddling our BS to the city boys here.

Plainsawn wood gets a little bit more wood out of the log, but much of it is going to cup when the wood dries. So what you gain in sawing, you lose more in planing.

Riftsawn wood, or radial cut to the center, wastes a lot more wood, because it requires a circular saw set to a depth of 1/2 the log, and produces a piece of waste wedge-shaped piece between every good square board out of the log.

I guess I'll have to take some photos at the sawmill so you will understand a little bit.

again with the photos..... (?)

Lee
Thank you ever so much! Nothing would please me more than learning more about wood from an obvious Master... Seeing as how I have an entirely different understanding of riftsawn as well... I was such a fool listening to all those other guys and reading all those books... Not to mention my own Damn Lying Eyes!

While you have you camera out how about snapping a couple photos of the SC 70, if it's not too much of a bother?
art

Sitka, you may have refinished a few rifles and done a good job, but I own 625 acres of saw timber, am a third generation farmer of that grove of trees, and have worked felling logs and hauling them out with mule teams, to designing robotic logging equipment and computer aided sawmills. I designed and built CNC wood carving machinery, and sold stock blanks to Beretta for their SO series shotguns. I bave been building gunstocks for myself since 1967, along with a few friends who are serious hobbyists, serious in that you can't buy one of the rifles for under $5,000 second hand.

Your "understanding" of riftsawn is wrong if it was different than I explained. I will find some diagrams from a forestry school and post them.

I wait with bated breath...

I am so excited!!!!!!!!

Pictures of plain sawn, rift sawn, and quarter sawn...

http://www.hoganhardwoods.com/hogan/pages/technical/Technical_01/lumbersawing_02.htm

interesting how you managed to provide a link that discredits your own previous statement on the subject.



so, you're officially admitting you are wrong then ??

UtahLefty,

You simply don't understand, and will not understand, until you spend some time cutting wood with a circular saw and a bandsaw.

You won't understand about the waste due to having to plane out the cupping of plain sawn lumber, until you cut a tree, plain saw it, and air dry the boards for a few years, then try to size them.

You don't understand the fact that a fine piece of walnut is almost entirely wasted if you plain saw it into boards with mediocre figure, when you could have gotten lots more fine blanks out of a quarter sawn log.

You aren't an expert until you have done it.
You haven't done it. I have.

I don't care if you waste your own time and effort not following my advice. Just don't mislead others.

you're nothing if not entertaining Lee! Luckily no one really takes you seriously enough to actually spend money based on your google-fu.

If you weren't so busy digging this latest hole, you might have noticed:

a) I haven't offered any advice on this thread. I merely pointed out your two completely contradictory statements.

b) I don't feel the need to try to convince everyone I know everything about every subject. All the time.

there's quite a bit of assumption in the above post about my experience. that may be, shall we say, imprudent.....

Utah, you don't know enough to understand what I wrote or what you read on that web page I gave you. You think you "caught" me, in a subject about which you have no direct knowledge. That's pretty amazing.

again with the assumptions about someone else's experience....

here is a fairly simple concept in social interactions that has proven to be maddeningly elusive to you:


a.) I don't spend all my time here screeching about my credibility on a given subject because I don't have to .
People know me well enough (many in person) to judge for themselves the value of an opinion I might render.

b.) on occasion it's been pointed out that something I said was off the mark, whereupon I said "Sure, I can see that". (see point "a" above)


carry on.

To bad he can't Google a clue

We're talking about cutting walnut stock blanks.

A few of you are talking about me, because you can't talk about woodworking. Why don't you mind your own business and keep your mouth shut in these topics where you know nothing?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

Damn, and here I was thinking I stepped in dogshit this morning............

Nope, just Liar24, back again.

Can't someone flush this turd, once and for all?

Would be refreshing if he took his own advise.

It'd be more refreshing if he were to take a healthy dose of cyanide................

I doubt it. He invented the antidote.

Now, if someone would just invent the antidope for Liar24.............

Would you guys please stop distracting the Master?!? I am trying to learn something here!



























NOT!

HA. Another assumption. How do you know who knows nothing? How do you know what we do, where we go, and what our hobbies are?

You don't, and even when you're clearly pointed wrong by multiple sources, you don't have the sack to say"Hey, you know, I can see where you're coming from", or "yeah, you're right".

As stated earlier. We don't sit around the internet bragging of our careers and accomplishments because we don't have too. We don't have to justify ourselves, especially to a liar.

I know that those who can't look at the pictures I provided and understand the different kinds of sawing don't know enough to be posting on this topic at all.

When one of those know-nothings starts questioning me, or anyone else who has direct knowledge of the subject, the first thing we usually do is politely inform them of our experience. That is not bragging. If they persist, then they are being rude and obnoxious, and I really no longer care about their embarrassment and feelings of shame.

Lee ,

I have a serious question for you about your statement that you sold wood to Beretta for their SO series shotguns...

I know quite a few folks that have worked for Beretta both in Italy and MD during the last 25 years.

I was not aware they EVER used any American grown walnut on their high grade sidelock shotguns...

I would LOVE to hear your explanation on this, unless your family farm is in France, the Balkans or Turkey..

That's a reasonable question, jim62.

I not only cut my own timber and sell it, but buy other wood that I do not grow, such as cherry and maple from Washington and claro walnut from California. They need white oak, red oak and yellow pine out there.

Sometimes a gun builder will find a wonderful tree which is more than he needs or can afford, because his money would be tied up in it for years. So he will put out the word to others in the wood business or gun builders, and sell off part of that tree. Don Allen, at Dakota, used to do this.

I also trade wood with all sorts of people. I have sold CNC machinery to yacht builders, so I buy or trade red oak and yellow pine with them for mahogany and teak. I trade with other gun builders for blanks of English and French walnut, and maple. People from Beretta and other companies get around; they see rifles people have built and the wood on them. When they need two pieces of matching wood for two matching shotguns, and they don't have it, they start calling.

And the pile of bullschit from Liar24 gets even deeper..........

See my post above about why I call down rude, obnoxious people who don't have anything to add to the topic, Nimrod.

Never mind, I know better.....

Didn't you know Beretta developed "just in time" manufacturing only to have the auto industry steal all the glory from the process? Beretta sends buyers around looking for wood for individual guns all the time.

But the truly funny part is "so I buy or trade red oak and yellow pine with them for mahogany and teak". NO BOAT BUILDER of any experience would consider red oak for a boat wood. Period! Ever!

A yacht? Special!

Red oak rots just looking at it and the tannins cause any fasteners to bleed black halos around them...

And the beat goes on!

Since Cole's Guns does a huge business in restocking and upgrading the wood on Beretta shotguns, there does seem to be demand for better wood than Beretta sometimes provides.

Turkish walnut is a bit soft for a double rifle, too. It's difficult to find the figure the customer wants in the butt stock and have the grain flow right through the grip so it doesn't split.

And actually, Beretta called a friend of mine who had a big stash of exhibition wood, and had what they wanted, but he had sold the matching blank to me, so I swapped it back to him, and he sold both blanks to Beretta.

"Turkish walnut is a bit soft for a double rifle, too."

Oh my!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing this absurd has ever been posted here before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The very best walnut anywhere just got called soft!!!!!!!!

There are meds available for your condition Lee... You need help!
art still rolling!

this thread just keeps on giving!

Truly no wood is as dense as Lee 24.

But I gotta wonder, with his head planted so far up his azz, how does he manage to pull it out and post on these forums?

I swear he must be BO's missing twin brother. Full of delusions of grandeur, but absolutely no substance.

Now I know why the wood on Beretta's generally sucks. I had to go to the Beretta Gallery in NYC just to find a nicely stocked 682 Gold E.

He doesn't always drink beer, but when he does it's Dos Equis.

Cole Gunsmithing wood upgrades for Beretta.

https://colegun.com/wood-sets-beretta-c-8_33.html?zenid=1db634985f3a8bf56723a74a5c91afb1

Beretta actually began implementing lean manufacturing, and just-in-time delivery in late 2006.

http://www.americanexecutive.com/in...&task=view&id=6375&Itemid=80

I have been consulting in lean manufacturing since 1981, before it was a buzzword, and designed my first entire just-in-time, zero inventory, fully robotic factory in 1985.

So that's another subject where you armchair Googlers need to not try to peddle your faux knowledge.

So, no comment on soft Turkish, rotting red oak and the rest?

Isn't it time for your meds? You do realize that anyone can Google something like Beretta for a buzzword, post it and sit back and watch you make an ass of yourself by going to the EXACT same page and claiming to consult on that very topic, don't you?

It has gone beyond humor and even well beyond pathetic...
art still laughing, but feeling a little guilty

anyone ever notice that Lee never has a "fluid" give-and-take about a subject? He averages almost exactly one hour between posts, no matter what time of day it is. (this leaves him, on average, about 5 posts behind the rest of us in the discussion)

I bet he's on dial-up. That, or his google-fu isn't nearly as strong as we give him credit for.....

Oh, to be a moderator for just one day............

I noticed that as well. When cornered, like recently on the Palma thread he started, he quickly changes the subject. Just as he did when he lied about working for FN and was embarrassed by Matt Williams.

I know what you mean about feeling a little guilty at laughing at Lee24, Art!

Showing Lee24 up feels like... well, I dunno! Perhaps like picking on the kid in the class who has Down's Syndrom must feel like -- you win the argument, but you would surely feel a little dirty!

John

I skimmed some of the comments, and some Sitka thought he had "caught" me on what I said about trading red oak and yellow pine for maple and cherry. I guess he knows so little about woods and furniture that he thinks they are using oak for gun stocks, or he just doesn't bother to read before shooting off his keyboard.

Agains, Sitka, I make furniture, too, as well as fine paneling for my house. And I designed a line of woodworking CNC machines used for building fine yachts and pianos. That is how I come to work with lots of woods. You should maybe go to the International Woodworking Show in Atlanta; you might enjoy it, and learn something.

Actually, I do have a Yugo SKS with an oak stock, and another SKS with a mahogany stock, which is much lighter in weight.

On average, both Red Oak and White Oak are harder on the Janka scale than Turkish Walnut, but so-called Turkish Walnut mostly does not come from Turkey, so its figure, grain, hardness and other factors of quality vary widely. Woodworkers like it because it is easier to work by hand.

RDFinn, to correct you - I never claimed to work for FN. I have been in their factory more than once. And Matt Williams never corrected me - you simply don't know enough to tell that.

I just stumbled onto this thread,

Did I understand properly? Did Lee24 just claim he invented just-in-time manufacturing AND robotics?

Wonder if he also consulted with Al Gore when HE invented the internet.

yeah, pretty much. oh, and ship building too. and pianos.

No, I didn't claim to invent JIT manufacturing, but I have been applying it since 1981 as a manufacturing consultant to a wide variety of industries.

I have designed and developed, as part of a team, a wide variety of CNC machines for wood, aluminum and composites, from one to 4 tool heads, and 3 to 6 axes.

A yacht is a boat. A ship is not a boat. Now you learned something new.

Back to the original poster, who was being told that American Black Walnut is unfit for gunstocks.... this is patently untrue.

Black Walnut can be highly desirable for furniture and gunstocks. It is harder than European walnuts (including so-called "Turkish" walnut), and it is about 8% stronger in other measurements, like shear strength, elasticity, and rupture strength.

You can confirm this by consulting the data published by the United States Dept. of Agriculture, Forest Products Laboratory.

Last year, I posted a some photos of a rifle I had recently built, in my own Black Walnut. It is a takedown Mauser in 6.5x55mm, if you care to search for it.

There is a lot more to grading walnut than just the figure, but that is all the amateur can see.

lee24, you're slippery and hard to keep on task, but as i've said & asked before:
that's nice, but as i asked before: you gonna shoot or what?



a simple yes or no will suffice, remember however you made the original offer to shoot against me, i'm just trying to facilitate your request.

But of course you are denying that you worked for FN because Matt Williams called you out on yet another lie. I asked you directly if you worked for FN back when folks were asking about the new mod 70 when it was about to be released. I asked you how you knew about the new mod 70 and it's pending release and you stated that you worked for FN as a consultant and that you also worked for "various other firearms manufacturers" as well. You stated that you had taken pictures inside the FN plant and that you had them on your PC and needed permission to post them. Turns out the picture you posted was pirated from a newspaper article that you had nothing to do with. I don't know who you think you are trying to impress with your life failures and fantasies but I can assure you it isn't me.

Lee
"On average, both Red Oak and White Oak are harder on the Janka scale than Turkish Walnut, but so-called Turkish Walnut mostly does not come from Turkey, so its figure, grain, hardness and other factors of quality vary widely. Woodworkers like it because it is easier to work by hand."

Please explain how this could be true. In your answer include exactly how the Janka test is run and what it actually tests.

Please explain how pore size affects the test and compare and contrast the three woods and their inherent pore size differences.

Also, please enlighten further on the soft Turkish and how much fun it is to work by hand...

Also, please explain how Turkish walnut can come from somewhere else and still be Turkish... My Turkish stash was hand-picked from stacks in Turkey, so I have a fair guess at its source.

That ringing sound when rapped with a knuckle... the one that lasts and lasts and lasts gives most people a pretty fair idea of its hardness...

Art, do you have any idea how long it will take to Google all that info?

especially with dial-up!

10-1 odds say he answers that it would be benieth him to try and explain it to such simpletons as ourselves.....

Now the trolls flip 180 degrees from claiming I know nothing, to admitting my information is correct, but,..but... I must have Googled it all.

LOL!
I actually typed it all. That's why you can't Google it up anywhere.

Next time, don't post about subjects that are someone else's career work, and you won't show yourselves as idiots.

RWE
Think I will skip the beer and popcorn and go straight to some Irish whiskey from Nebraska, or some TN whiskey from CO or maybe some Scotch from AK... because they are all harder than the stuff they claim to make at their namesake locations.
art

spoken by someone who tried to school me in how to run a newspaper and on libel laws......[bleep] dumbass wont take your own advise....

Lee
No flippydoo at all... You know nothing... not even enough to Google it right! You are so full of feces your eyes must be brown...

but are ya gonna come shoot???

rattler, this thread is about gunstocks. You have nothing to add, so shut up.

And I did try to educate you about libel law, but if you couldn't soak it up, that is your fault.

My Palma posts are on the Palma thread.

Sitka, you need to do more than refinish a few stocks before you start trying to bluff your way through the subject of sawmilling walnut gun stock blanks. If you start now, you might be able to post in five years.

not for quite awhile!!!

Lee
Somehow I suspected your answer would be along those lines. Every post you have ever made about walnut was riddled with errors. I have been getting emails and phone calls about this thread here today and everyone really appreciates the depth of your knowledge and willingness to provide one hell of a good laugh.

Keep it up as you bring great joy to so many.
art

lee24,

my bad, saw you just added something. course you were the one that wanted to 'shoot against' me, now i guess you really weren't serious, huh?

bummer!

You are so far out of your leaque it isn't even funny.

I've known Art for 10 years. While he may not know everything about wood, if you take the sum of his knowledge from the growth of trees at the celular level, by species, the processing of wood, both cutting and drying, and the actual application of building furniture, both rifle stocks and cabinetry, and the finishing of those wood products, you are unlikely to find anyone in the world that has such a breadth of knowledge on wood as Stinky Deer. I'm thinking he's got about 40 years in gaining and applying that knowledge.

You seriously must have some sort of mental condition to spew things you know absolutely nothing about, and then go about insulting people that have tremendous experience on the subject matter when they point out your lies. You may be able to delude yourself, but nobody out there is buying any of it.

Don't say that Lott. We're not allowed to question his knowledge, but he sure is allowed to question all of ours.

Watching Lee24 go toe to toe with Art on wood reminds me of the classic "Bambi meets Godzilla"

Introducing Lee24 as Bambi

That's his way of saying he didn't anticipate anyone having experience in shooting Palma matches on this forum nor did he anticipate running into a credible gentlemen like Matt Williams who actually did work for FN.

I'm glad Art, or Sitka, or whoever that is, has a few friends, but none of them said a thing about his experience. I can tell from what he and the rest of you post that you know nothing more than your read on the Internet this afternoon.

Never mind my being in the wood business from farming to manufacturing.

Never mind your admitting to having no experience other than rubbing on some Tru-oil.

For the 100th time, you can't dispute the facts about the subject when you look them up, but none of you are man enough to admit you were wrong about everything you posted... again.

Correction, I called you out for the Liar that you are, plain and simple.

Your mug and a camera wouldn't have made it through the guard station at FN and that's a fact.

Still waiting on that picture of of the 375............

Did you restock it in Red Oak?

I consider my accomplishments fairly decent for my time on the planet, but I swear you must be 150 years old to have done half of what you claim.

About what time would you suppose Winchester started implementing JIT?
Careful now, this is where you might get caught in a lie again. Before you get too carried away though, keep in mind I still have the original manual......(grin)

I think at this point Liar, you should make sure you post the bulletin out to all of those stockmakers heading for Reno that they're working with inferior wood. That way they don't waste their time and resources. Clock is ticking and you haven't a moment to spare.

Whoa Whoa Whoa......Stop right there....Perfect.

Williams, I was in FN 3 weeks ago, and will be going back as soon as I get time to buzz over there. I like that new FNP pistol.

Your claiming something about Winchester has nothing to do with wood, or Beretta, or anything but your bad attitude.

I don't know if Winchester ever implemented JIT, and I highly doubt it, having been in two of their feeder factories a year before they closed, and seeing the way they did shipping to New Haven. It wasn't anything near JIT, but people claim to have implemented Six Sigma, JIT and all kinds of things when they really haven't a clue.

How would you know if they had or hadn't implement JIT?

Ohh, I don't know.....Maybe because I produced parts for them since 1993.

That doesn't mean you know a thing about JIT. You make a few small parts, and they had lots of parts left over both times they went broke. That tells me they didn't have any JIT system.

Why don't you tell us when they allegedly implemented JIT, and who was in charge of the program, so I can check it out?

Did you make it into their "retail store" again Lee?

I hear they run some killer deals on those 375's with SC barrel stamps from time to time.

You'd best get up pretty early on this subject if you intend on keeping your head above water.

Since you have such a vast array of knowledge in CNC equipment, just what kind of controllers were you using and in what years? Careful now, I know something on this subject too.


I think a documentary with you, Maser, and JO at the same camp could fund my early retirement.

LOL.....You're killing me Liar.

40,000 trigger guards per year was a "few" I guess.

You can surely google the answer, rather than relying on my expertise to hold your hand can't you?

With you visiting within the last couple of weeks at FN, you surely have a good contact there. Who exactly would that be Liar?

I developed the controller, wrote all of it, including the realtime operating system, based originally on a Motorola 68000, then later on a Pentium, a new program running under OS/2. Now it is on Windows, with a subprocessor for the axis controllers.

The new one I am designing will run off STL files, G-code, and interfaced to toolpath programs like BobCAM, VisualMill, and Delcam.

Now... you still haven't answered my question. Tell me about JIT at Winchester.

thought you worked with trees.....from planting to manufacture.....

So you picked the 3 cheesiest CAM programs to integrate with ehh? Impressive.

That's a pretty good boasting for a walnut farmer. Reckon all this was linear guides too?

Well, gotsta get some dinner.....Can hardly wait to see what the morning brings on this subject.

lee24,

that's an appropriate quote, of which i will paraphrase:

now... you still haven't answered my question. which palma team(s) you been on, and are you gonna 'shoot against' me??????

i think he was on the coconut palma team because he surely is a nut

my favorite line from Pirates of the Caribbean:

"Do you think he plans it all out ahead of time, or just makes it up as he goes along?"



there has to be, like, 2 million posts on here by now. I can't remember one single thread where there failed to show up at least one poster with specific knowledge of the subject matter at hand.

how could one possibly expect to BS through those odds?

yet here we have the walnut farmer come furniture maker come boat yacht builder come Robotics designer come gun designer come wildlife biologist come piano maker come computer programmer come CIA agent come Navy Seal come US Olympic Biathlete come ............

he's a highlander (imortal) lee 24 McCload to have lived long enought to.........

just the tip of the iceberg on his long and distinguished resume....

someone really should be keeping a spreadsheet on his degrees (I remember Sean had started one it seems)

- I am a consulting engineer who develops, among other things, weapons systems, from hunting rifles to attack helicopters, as well as composite armor to defeat it, from the 9mm handgun to 155mm sabot round.

- I am a mechanical engineer, designing robotics, but also have engineered skyscrapers (mechanical, electrical, plumbing, site drainage, etc), ponds, dams, small bridges, as well as medical devices, computers, cell phones, firearms, tools, farm machinery, military aircraft and automobile components, chemical and polymer plants, and a wide array of other retail products and manufacturing process development. I have worked in 32 states, as well as overseas.
- As for my engineering degree, I have several, as well as PhD courses in specific areas related to projects, at Georgia Tech, Clemson, USC, and JPL. Since you are a pilot, I was a consultant on composites and airframes manufacturing of most of commercial and military jets, and few helicopters back in the early to mid 1980s. Current projects include development of the next generation of lightweight personnel, vehicle and aircraft armor. - my 45 years of hunting, competition shooting and firearms engineering.

- The 600,000 rounds I have fired in competition and practice

- I included the 45 years of hunting and 400,000 handgun rounds in there.

- I just renewed my hunting license for the 40th year.

- I grew up on a cattle ranch, and had spent 1,000 nights under the stars before I was 21.

- I grew up in the hardwood business, providing veneer grade walnut and oak to the furniture industry. I have been building furniture and gunstocks as a hobby for 35 years.
- I have a shop full of all sorts of walnut, some of it air drying for over 20 years. Having designed 3, 4 and 5-axis CNC machines for woodworking, I have had the opportunity to see and cut a lot of woods.

- BTY, the National Geographic Channel had a 3-part series on one of my projects just recently. We are still adding to it.

can you call a 625 acre walnut grove in the midwest a "cattle ranch" ?


"whelp, I expect we gotta bring 'em down outta the mountains before the snow flies. Hon, I'll be gone a month at the most. Ifen I'm not back, send Jed."

in a bizzaro world ........ya sure can

Lee, you really are a piece of work! Been a while since we've had a thread this entertaining. Keep up the good work.

Matt
"I think a documentary with you, Maser, and JO at the same camp could fund my early retirement."

Now that is funny! The possibilities are endless!
art

Every time one of this same little gang offers BS advice and someone straightens things out with the facts, the rest of the gang runs to tag up and drag him out of the ring, lay down a smokescreen of off-topic personal attacks, and form a circle to give each other a back rub.

triggerguard vanished after being caught in his bluff about JIT manufacturing at Winchester.

... or maybe it was the fact my knowledge of CNC frightened him. He is a user of CNC, while I am an architect and developer of it CNC. He forgot to mention what program he uses. He must be Googling or talking to someone who actually programs a CNC mill.

The facts Liar, are beyond your grasp.....

You are the only person I have ever known to turn down a free rifle in exchange for merely a picture substaniating the existence of your South Carolina 375.

I made a blanket offer to anyone who could show proof that they owned a Model 70 Super Grade in 375 H&H that had a South Carolina barrel roll stamp, just like the one you claim to own, that they could have my Super Express in 416 for free.



That sound we are all listening to now would be the crickets Liar.

How does he find the time to drink the Dos Equis?

Vanished?? Hardly...

If you built CNCs, I'm an astronaut.

In CAM programs I've used Mastercam, Gibbs, Solid Cam, Camworks, and now using Alibre, with cam integrated. I've been using Solidworks since 1997 and now have switched to Alibre exclusively. Prior to all that 3d, I was using generic and visual cadd, as well as by hand on paper.

It's 5:48 a.m......Like I said, you'd best get up early on this subject.

So were absolutely clear, you're claiming that Winchester never implemented the JIT system correct?

Sorry, Lee, but You are digging a HOLE TO CHINA for yourself from which you will never crawl out of..


Mr Williams is a BONAFIDE parts supplier with Fn/Winchester..And USRAC before that. It's common knowledge. It's not even debatable.

You sir, are just some 'net poster WHO CLAIMS to have ties to them.

Provide PROOF .

Be a MAN and put up or shut up!!!

Produce a name of anyone with FN/Browning /Winchester that we can contact verifiy YOU have any REAL ongoing relationship with them.

I know several people in the Browing offices in Utah well enough and THEY could tell me if your contact name was bogus.

Your imaginary South Carolina made .375 H&H sure as hell has not has not been much proof.

Have you noticed that for YEARS that NOBODY on this ENTIRE FORUM believes your BULLSCHIT??????

Ahh...don't push him too hard right now. He's busy googling and oogling for something witty.

you left out that he knows more bout how a newspaper is run and more bout libel laws than i do....he spent half a thread trying to explain to me how my newspaper ran and what we do bout libel and slander....though slander has minimal to do with a newspaper....apparently ive got access to huge chunk of cash to fight libel cases i wasnt aware off....

Maybe he should Google " M�nchhausen Syndrome"..

He definitely suffers from it..

I think we all should start calling him "the Barron" or
" Mr. M�nchhausen"..

It sure as hell fits..

Like I said, jim62 runs in to take up for "triggerguard", who keeps posting, but nothing about JIT at Winchester. He dropped his diversion of CNC like a hot potato, too. Oh, I see is is learning to use the CAD program, Alibre. Whoopee.

Now, jim62 is playing psychologist. How cute.

Making 40,000 metal parts doesn't make you an expert in anything but that - certainly not walnut for gunstocks, as we see.

You guys don't need to keep posting. Everyone understands that you have no knowledge to add to the topic of American Walnut for gun stocks.

I don't need to keep pointing that out, either. Good day!

Libel is the written form of slander, FYI.

Lee shouldnt you be in school right now?

I'm telling your mommy...........

Lee, you simply don't know JIT about JIT, nor whether or when Winchester implemented it either.

I was there, so spare us all your knowledge on the subject.


You really need to seek help with a shrink, if you're not already crosstrained in that field to self-diagnose yourself.

If you were there, why can't you tell me something about it?

Come on, I have done advanced manufacturing projects for most of the automobile, aerospace and computer companies. I understand any buzzwords you can Google up.

How about the name of the JIT project manager and some details, or some links to articles, like the one I posted about Beretta implementing its first JIT program in 2006?

Or, just admit you were bluffing to change the subject from walnut.

so you're the one that bankrupted the auto industry !

(Crap! , this is about the timeframe Winchester went under and the F-22 got cancelled too!)

you didn't install Sportsman's Warehouse's new inventory system, did you?

I just got an idea on how to short-sell stock based on Lee's career moves

As if you could comprehend a thing about my work.

Nobody can comprehend the insane..............

This is the proverbial train wreck.

We all know not to look, but we all still peek...

I admit to not knowing a lot of the background on the posts about Lee24 that I've seen around, but after reading this one, it all makes sense (well, sorta).

It's a strange combination of humor, sadness, patheticness, and almost sympathy, to watch what this joker writes....

When a train kills a bunch of drunks who were trying to derail it, that isn't a "train wreck".

Coldbore..

Lee24s stupid schit posted here is better than ANYTHING Marvel Comics sells..

What a pathetic liar.

No....but when an insane takes over the controls and doesnt have a clue to what hes doing theres always the inevitable train wreck......

I'm looking forward to new new topic he'll switch to when he runs out of keyboard.

Uuuuhhhh, yeah.....

That's the impression I was getting from here as well......

Uh huh........

Drive on, "engineer"........ You're in firm control here....

You guys sure do like to avoid discussing the thread topics.

It's nice the way you lay down cover so those who shot themselves can crawl off and die.

The way you give each other back rubs to keep up your spirits is creepy, though.

lee24,

i'll bring this over from the competition page just to share, maybe you'll respond here since you've become quiet on the comp page:

What a load of [bleep]!! I hope the original poster got his answer before Mr. Know-it-all [bleep] this thread up!

no chit sherlockand one doesnt apply to the paper.....since you said you were such an expert in libel and slander want to try and explain to the class again just how rulings in other countries apply to US libel and slander laws....was [bleep] hilarious the last go 'round....was also kinda funny watching you explain how i deal with such cases when it was pretty obvious you have ever worked at a newspaper let alone ran one where a libel lawsuit would directly affect whether or not food gets put on the table....

try it again, this time ill invite my wife to play so you can get your arse handed to you by a gal....

Sorry, but my involvement with USRAC was prior to Google and I'm simply talking over your head, just as Art did regarding stocks.

Any info provided to your pathological lying brain would be used on another site to fuel your fire.

At least this way, I'm saving you the time to increase the size of your resume.


Where's the PICTURE LIAR

....And Lee dissapears to gather more google knowledge..................

I have to admit I learned quite a bit from Lee this go around...
Turkish is too soft to build a quailty stock...
Turkish does not come from Turkey most of the time...
Turkish is fun to cut by hand...
Black walnut is a superior stock wood...
Black walnut runs 8% stronger than European walnuts in shear, bending and rupture tests...
Quartersawing saves wood...
Plainsawn lumber always cups...
Beretta shops around for wood, one blank at a time...

Just imagine how much more there is to learn from such a gifted mentor...
art

I had to fix your last word Art.

Naahh man, he's too busy redesigning the next space shuttle with his JPL degree or consulting on building the next unsinkable Titanic (boats, ships, yachts, yadda yadda yadda) to spend all his time explaining the intricacies of doing everything that he does to mere mortals like us.

I had hoped some honest, interested adult posters had decided to take a chance on resuming the conversation.

Well, I see none of the peanut gallery has posted anything about the topic. No surprise there.

Sitka is listing some facts about walnut which I posted, mixed in with some of his fabricatoins that I didn't say. Cheap, cowardly trick often used by cyber punks.

Triggerguard still blusters about all his secret knowledge about Winchester which he cannot share with us. I guess he shouldn't have brought up subjects like JIT if he couldn't talk about them.

Where you been? google boy.

and the quickest way to shut all of us up.....where the [bleep] is the pic of that 375?

Whatsamatter, boys, don't have anything to add about cutting walnut for gun stocks?
Sitka and triggerguard sure do appreciate your covering for them.

Reward each other with a back rub.

lee24,

you're one to talk - answer my queries over on the comp forum!!!
(or here, even tho' it aint about wood)

I gotta wonder Lee: when you post, do you pay any attention at all to who you're talking to ? (really, I'd like to know)

You apparently registered in 2005, that's more than ample time to figure out who is who and what individual members do both as a primary source of income and as a serious-enough hobby to generate supplemental income.

And yet.

I've watched you argue you know more about:

publishing with a newspaper publisher
camera design with a professional photographer
stockmaking with a professional stockmaker
seafaring with (several) professional charter captains
rifle manufacture with a professional parts maker
wildlife biology with a professional wildlife biologist
law with a (very) successful attorney
metallurgy with a metalurgist
computer programming with a full time computer programmer
competition shooting with several (very) well known shooters

and on and on..... A great many of us are known by our real names. I cannot put too much emphasis on that. Really.

stop for a minute. just stop for one full minute and think about that.

is it any wonder you're a laughingstock? I expect any day now to log on and find you arguing with Ken Howell that he's wrong about one of his books, because "you know Ken Howell".

It's baffling. And not really funny at this point. It's more sad than anything else.

He's been in between fry orders at BK....Better get him to show pics now, or else the lunch crowd is going to have him overwhelmed.

Thanks for the backrub guys. I was sweating it there for a minute that I'd have to finally confess that I'm not a manufacturer of gun parts, have never ran CNC machinery, and had never been to the Winchester factories, let alone complied with JIT manufacturing techniques as early as 1994.

The problem I'm having with my fantasies at this point, is the fact that I've got Purchase Orders, Quality Control Manuals, and said parts within arms reach of me. Make the voices stop Lee...I give.

No, I haven't, Lefty, and I don't accept your assertion that any of these people are such professionals. I disputed specific things which I knew to be correct. I explained why they were wrong, and backed it up with other experts. None of that is going to be enough for some of you, because your root problem is an inferiority complex.

It doesn't take much to send those people over the edge. They see anyone else who even corrects the most minute detail as a threat to their web persona as some expert. They have to try to build themselves up by attacking others.

You probably didn't understand the discussion between myself and any of those other wounded egos on subjects like libel or computer programming ( I don't recall such a discussion ). So I really don't worry about your being snowed by their smoke and disliking me for explaining why is is smoke.

triggerguard, everyone knows you make small gun parts. You tell us every day, several times a day.

Just don't try to BS this manufacturing expert with baloney about JIT at Winchester or anywhere else that you can't back up. Next time you are unable to discuss the topic, like walnut, don't choose as your diversion another topic you can't discuss, either.

I have to get back to work designing my 4th generation CNC machine, including all the software to run it. Do any of you comprehend that requires me to be a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, and a software engineer (and not just a mere "computer programmer")?

what about me, lee, what about me????? you challenged me to a shoot, i wanna shoot, now you're slinking off - what gives!!????

wmeek, you probably want to play Michael Jordan in basketball and Federer in tennis, too.

your the one that claimed to be 'superior', i just want to compete...

utah
I believe you left out arguing forestry with a Professor that has visited here as a consultant on the Kenai Peninsula spruce bettle problem... Among many other things.
art

details given to make clear it was another poster and to avoid identifying him... ha may want to do some leading...

nope, not at all. you challenged me to a shoot. if jordan or federer challenged me to play their game i would be honored as well - they didn't, you did!

so let's do it!

really want to know which palma team(s) you've been on, or did you misrepresent yourself when you claimed you shot palme?

there you go. that about sums it up, I think.

There Liar...I fixed it based on your recommendations from prior posts, so that we could all understand it.

lets see....my name is Sheridan Shumway....my wife is Darla Shumway....the two newspapers i own are in my sig(you will see three papers but we partnered with a buddy who has a paper to the north of us) and if yah look at the Montana Newspaper Assosiation site you will find that my wife is a board member there:

http://www.mtnewspapers.com/articles/2009/10/01/about/3mnaadvertising.txt

a couple members here know me personally and one is even very good friends with one of my uncles and a cousin of mine...one member here has stopped into the office to see me aswell unannounced....ive never tried to hide who in the hell i am and have had an open invention to any and all here who happen to be in my neck of the woods to stop in and see me, no notice required.....

just who in the [bleep] are you and whats your name?

I believe you, rattler. You simply don't understand the law of libel and slander, maybe because newspaper get such a free reign to commit it more than an ordinary citizen or business would. If you don't believe me, you need to hire a better lawyer than you have.

I offer that advice not only as someone who has studied the law in a major law school, but as one who founded and ran a small weekly newspaper for two years, until the others went off to jobs as editors at big city papers, and weekly news magazines. Two of my attorneys and close friends are recognized experts in the field of communications law, including libel by newspapers. Nothing I have told you would be disputed by them.

There Matt, fixed what you missed.

Lee, I have no doubt that you are well educated and know your way around computors and such. What I don't understand is why you lie about things such as owning a particular rifle and working for a company such as FN. Why don't you just accept your life experiences for what they are.

lee24,

you responded to rattler, but you didn't answer his question:



or mine:



'fess up!

Lee
"...free reign..."

Believe that would be "free rein" to a newspaper guy...
art

Sitka, unable to discuss the thread topic, desperately searches for typing errors of other posters who actually do have expertise in building gunstocks.

RDFinn, I don't understand why you keep repeating that accusation, when I have told you at least four times that I never worked for FN, and never claimed to work for FN. I have known people who worked there over the years, been in the facility several times since 1979, and discussed consulting to them, but never fit it in to my schedule. So you tell me, why do you persist in posting your same fabrications about me?

Because that's exactly what you told me right here. Why would I make that up. At the time, I had no reason in the world to doubt you.

I've been trying to keep this organized in my head, but it ain't working. thought I'd make a list regarding Lee24's lifetime accomplishments.

Studied law as noted above.
Walnut tree farmer
Rifle stock carver
Engineer
Consultant to firearms company's
Consultant to the weapons industry
Inventor
Owner of the rarest .375 in the history of .375's

What did I miss???

So what? I know many people with careers more varied than that.
I comes from working for 40 years, and accomplishing 3 times as much every day as the average do-nothing wage slave.

So now I've straightened you out, Finn.

No you haven't "straightened" me out, you are just backpedaling on a blatant lie. Of course and as usual, you provide no answer for the question asked. Why do you feel the need to pump yourself up with all these BS accomplishments? Is your sterile life really that pathetic and boring?

lee24,

straighten me out, answer my questions:
-gonna come shoot?
-which palma team?
-have you misrepresented yourself?

pretty simple, really

Certified Moron.

and yet yah have plenty of time to post on here.....i know plenty of individuals who have accomplished alot of stuff in their lives, sometimes hard to believe amounts if they hadnt offered proof but without exception i noticed two things....these individuals had no problem supplying proof and they didnt have time for this sorta bullchit....if posting on an internet forum was that important to them and they took the time you do to do it, they wouldnt have done the chit they did.....

as for as libel laws....as i said in the other thread.....i do not have the war chest that the NYT has, i have to pay close attention to the libel laws if i want to continue owning this paper...i get threatened with law suits all the time but there hasnt been a single lawyer thats taken up a case against us BECAUSE we know and understand libel laws you dumb [bleep], we dont print rumors, we print public record....and we have to explain these lawws to ppl all the time cause we live on an indian reservation and there is a tribal newspaper that DOES NOT have to pay attention to these laws so we get questioned all the time as to why they print something and we dont...

also the proof you posted in the other thread was of cases that took place in other countries and cases that had nothing to do with libel laws or at most it was a minor foot note in conjunction with more heinous crimes such as pedophilia...

you really are to stupid to even read the links you post....

I forgot the High Level Security Clearance and the fact that you consult in the Aerospace Industry (you did say that right?)



Lee,

It's very rare that one person can earn so many high level degrees and be an expert in such a broad spectrum of industry.....

Then you put posts up here which YOU claim are right, but you offer no validation of your claimed facts....

If you really are the person you say you are, this should be as elementary as wiping your Azz.

Are you a PhD? if so, post a pic of the certification. A patent, any degree at all, pictures of you with a kill, pics of you shooting, or the KING of all pictures.... the .375

you must love the constant beat downs.

Did you get your Troll costume for Halloween yet?

Lee
Here is a photo of a stock made from a stick by a kid of 14. It is his second stock cut by hand from the square blank. I am thinking he has two more stocks under his belt than you.
art

Unlike Lee's father, you must be one PROUD Dad!!!

CLB, the proof of my having done something is that I know all the intimate details of the projects. I can explain what I have done. Some reader's inability to understand technical subject at any level is not my fault, when I was talking with others who do understand.

Sitka, glad to know that kid would let you use a photo of his stock. Nice job. It looks like American Walnut, which you said was unsuitable for gun stocks. ROFLMAO!!

pssssssstttt, lee24, i'm waiting.........

Lee
ANYONE that knows walnut knows exactly what the wood is from the photo. I doubt you could get it in a hundred guesses... and every attempt would be a guess for you. And further I never once said American walnuts are unsuitable for making stocks.

You are getting more pathetic by the minute...
art

I see you're not going to hazard a guess. LOL!

You've been real careful not to post any assertions of fact, since your first posts where you didn't understand quarter sawing.

It is pathetic that I would waste my time playing jousting with you.

I would not stock a gun in any other than quarter sawn wood, It is the most stable wood to be had and any stock maker knows that. That is why it is so damned expensive.

Sounds like a lot of furniture makers are tossing around their expertise on this subject and they best had go on a furniture making sight as opposed to gunstock building.

..The ignorance of some on this subject is beyond imagination and the flaming is rude and without presidence...As a matter of fact the one that has made the most since on the subject, as to gun stock wood is Lee 24, I don't know him or from whence he came, but most of what he said in the begining of this thread is correct. I have not bothered with the rest of the dribble as it got out of hand IMO... I don't see why the attack on him...especially the reasoning behind those attacks, the replys are of no value and don't even make since to a gun stock maker.

I really don't give a damn how many stocks one can get out of tree by slab sawing it, the best stock money is quarter sawn wood, check your prices from some of the real wood dealers around,and not the simi inlet boys that sell the cheap stuff..Besides the best money is not in stocks it is in veneer, furniture, and flooring. end of story.

Slab sawed Marble Cake is pretty, warm and cozy stuff no doubt about that and suitable for two peice stocks I suppose, but in my opinnion it is better described as clown wood, it is prone to warpage, cracking, splitting, and crazeing a finish, it is subject to breakage from the recoil of heavy big bores..It is the fashion plate of the closet queen gunners...

As to the rest of the stuff posted here I have no dog in the fight, don't know the parties involved, just stating my views on the wood and the posts concering that wood, something I know a thing or three about at least when it comes to stocking a rifle, and many which I have sold on this forum, and from being a Turkish and European gunstock wood dealer from time to time, when the economy is right and will again when I think there is enough market for me to buy a few pallets of the stuff from my turkish buddies if they are still alive and have not been shot by the Russians for stealing wood out of Russia.

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on that point. Now, I'm not a stock maker but (just) a reasonably talented amateur woodworker and as I pointed out in my one post, 1/4 sawing is by far the most expensive and wasteful way to cut a log but the finished product is worth it. Lee seems to believe it is the most efficient way to cut a log. As you've pointed out as well, he is wrong.

Why do we continue to pile onto Lee for every stupid thing he says? It's because at some point here he will say something stupid and dangerous and when someone follows that advice they're going to get hurt. I personally would feel bad if I did not try and set the record straight before that happened.

Lee has continued to post drivel and not back it up with evidence that he knows what he's talking about and I will continue to peek in occasionally and when I have knowledge about a particular topic I will continue to correct him for the reasons above.

I stand by my post.

Allen

Plain sawing is "most efficient" for getting the most LUMBER from a log to sell. The lumber yard wants to produce board feet of lumber, usually for flooring, at best. If you plain saw a log for gunstocks, you only have the few boards in the middle with desirable grain and figure.

Quarter sawing gets the most amount of usable wood with the right grain and figure, and more of it will be of the same orientation.

Radial sawing cuts wood at a consistent radial orientation, but wastes the wedge piece of scrap between each board, and requires a circular saw, which cuts a wider kerf, turning more of your valuable wood into sawdust.

Go look at the pictures I posted again and try to understand. Better yet, go to a saw mill and see it in action. Best yet, try it yourself, then come back and talk about it AFTER you've done it.

While we're at it Pugs, what is your actual experience with:
* growing hardwoods?
* logging?
* sawing logs?
* seasoning and curing wood?
* laying out wood for furniture or gun stocks?
* building gun stocks?

I won't bother to ask about your experience in the other aspects of my career you claim to be capable of judging, like engineering, machine design and controls, advanced manufacturing, etc.

Photos of wood cut on my first generation CNC machine, installed 1985.

43/45
http://www.aldenyachts.com/new_sail/ay45/Gallery/AY45R2.htm

Deck
http://www.aldenyachts.com/new_sail/ay45/Gallery/AY45CP.htm
Interior photos
http://www.aldenyachts.com/new_sail/ay45/Gallery/AY45SL.htm

http://www.aldenyachts.com/new_sail/ay45/Gallery/AY45NV.htm

http://www.aldenyachts.com/new_sail/ay45/Gallery/AY45S2.htm

That machine tool company is under new ownership, and I am sure they have upgraded high volume customers like this to the current machines.

Nice pictures...unfortunately no provenance...just pretty pictures

Gee photo's from a website that Lee claims as his own. I never would have thought it



I'm sure you've seen pictures of our place in SE KY? Here's one. The property to the top of Chestnut Oak Mountain is ours.

Yea, we grow some timber there as you might suspect and yes we cut it. In fact I'll be down there taking down a couple hickories and one Oak this weekend. I'll take pictures (you do know about taking pictures of your own work don't you Lee?)

I've helped saw logs with a woodmizer owned by a family friend down there as well so I'm pretty familiar with the process although by no means an expert. But a significant chunk of wood has been stickered and stacked in the barn and my garage for a while. I've also helped my uncle build a solar kiln but have no experience with the end product, nor have I claimed to have them.

Laying out wood for furniture? Plenty of experience. Here's a picture of the 1/4 sawn White Oak rocker I built for my wife last year.(ignore the ball in the corner Finn never seems to uput her toys away) Plenty of campfire members have been to my home and seen my shop and work yet you seem to not have that. I wonder why (well, not really)


No experience at all with making gunstocks NOR HAVE I CLAIMED ANY (moron) But I do know wood and have worked with it for more than 25 years.

As far as my engineering credibility go ahead and google US Patent 7428754 how about you post one of your "patents" Lee? I have extensive experience engineering IT, antenna and signal processing. I have not claimed to have invented manufacturing machines or control systems. Again, my experience is verifiable by numerous people here.

Yours? Not so much. In fact, not at all. So, I'm going off to read a bit before bed and you go ahead and claim extensive experience in something else and be sure and post some more pictures from companies website or a museum and claim the stuff as your own. Also be sure your mom gives you your evening cocoa so you won't have bad dreams before she tucks you in.

By the way, time to change the subject again you wily bogey you.

Very good. So you've at least been around wood enough to know that I know more about it than you do. That's a lot more than some of my other critics, and you were almost polite.

My great grandfather used to build that Stickley style of furniture. It's a lot of work to just build one rocking chair like that.

Someday, in another thread, I might tell you about an automated system I developed for measuring various antenna signals in order for the engineers to relocate existing ones an locate new cellular, microwave and other radio/telephone antennas when upgrading a wide area or densely packed mixed signal environment. You might find that interesting.

Yes, LRF, you could have posted those pictures, too, if you knew what an Alden Yacht was, and that they cut all that interior wood on a 3-axis CNC machine. I knew that, because I sold them their first CNC machine. I could post a lot more pictures of machines I designed and installed, making all kinds of things, and tell you how it was programmed, etc. But if you are in denial, nothing will persuade you of the truth.

I could post a video of myself in a Campfire t-shirt with a CNC machine under construction and some of these folks would still claim it was some kind of trick or magic. Their kind used to burn astronomers and chemists at the stake back in the old days.

i doubt your capable of such a simple feat......you couldnt produce a simple pic of the 375 now could you?

but you can't answer my questions???

or won't?

Lee
You miss understand...I have formed no opinion about anything posted here or you, I just stated a fact, no provenance.
I would have interest in seeing your pictures of your work.
As for boats, I have no interest at all.

I stumbled upon this by accident a minute ago. It was too good not to share:

I'll save him some grief and say he just mis-spoke about working for Remington.

This is where you simply have to throw up your hands.........

This guy has done it all. No subject or profession left untouched.

Not one single picture of him in it with anything remotely resembling anything he claims to be a professional at, but that hasn't slown him down.

It's pretty sick to think that this guy could be living next to you, or be in the general vicinity of your kids.

A mind this warped has more on the plate than we'll ever know, and I'm thankful for not knowing the whole entree, truly thankful.

I'm thinking the plate is a few fries short of a happy meal.

I didn't "work for Remington". I worked as a consultant to a company which developed the machinery and process used by Remington, who simply purchased the machinery to coat the XCR rifles.

LRF, I was thinking of posting a photo of the interior restoration of a 53-foot Trumpy motor yacht, but you confirmed that would mean nothing to you.

wmeek, I answer you in the competition forum. If you are a consistent 97% shooter in some event, I might find it worthwhile to discuss it. Otherwise...

Matt, if I work for FedEx and deliver goods to you, which in turn, are used to make TG assemblies, can I tell folks that I helped make Williams Firearms the company that it is today?

Well think of posting something else. It sounds like you have many more experiences then just boats.

lee24,

yeah i am, in several events, but that's not the issue and needs no discussion. just answer the questions. here and now, or in the comp forum. speak up!

lee24,

no need to give you details as you've already shown that you don't believe anyone but yourself - but 97% is really pretty poor in some events. just answer the questions (and show the picture of the famous 375h&h while your at it).

While everyone has been viewing yet another "Lee Again", I note that 2 Leupold 3x were placed in the Free Classifieds...

This is a great diversion...

I snagged the K2.5 so it's all good....

lee 24, you just don't get it, probably never will. Keep up the good work! You're truly a legend in your own mind.

I have to apoligise to all of you.

This guy Lee 24 is obviously a nut case, he just doesn't know when to shut up and is an obvious troll..I don't know if he is what he says or not and I don't really care, but I know he is lacking in persona and edicate and is a braggard and certainly sold on himself..

I wish to remove my last post, at least the part wherein I did s stand up for him..apparantly some of you knew him better than I..

I also hate to see this kind of stuff on this forum. It is a place for polite discussion and has been that for the most part and I for one would prefer to ignore his antics even if all his remarkable claims are true, I can't stand anyone that is that much into themselves. I would think a man as intelligent as he claims to be would not bother with such poo unintelectuals as we'uns yet he continues to do so, very suspecious! Maybe I oughta check my spelling in case he reads this.:)

Art,

I believe that Ray learned the error of his ways...

See the post above yours.

Chris

Chris
I have spent time with Ray though I highly doubt he remembers it... I was not impressed then and I am not impressed now. Hubris is too small a word. I will delete a bit of my post though, as he did come around a bit...
art

Went ahead and nuked the post... It was pretty direct...

You all read Ray Atkinson's post saying everything I said about walnut and sawing it was right. That's good enough for me. I even saved a copy for the future.

A consistent 97% score in a 60-shot event like air pistol is 582.
Do you know anyone who consistently shoots a 582 in air pistol or any other pistol events, or offhand rifle? Then for wmeeks to claim it is a "pretty low score" shows him to be a non-competitor.

did you acknowledge his retraction, post #3368631. Just trying to be fair.

Knowing I helped develop the process machinery for Remington's XCR coating will probably keep some of you haters from buying a Remington. Your loss.

If you guys ever upgrade from plastic stocks, you may find yourself using a wood stock cut on a CNC machine I designed and built. Wouldn't that make you sick? LMAO!

I acknowledge that Mr. Atkinson is offended by the way I handle you punks. He still agrees with me 100% on gunstock wood and how to cut it, because he knows what he is talking about. The facts about wood are the facts. He just didn't want his post sandwiched in between the your punk posts. I understand that.

Better check the list here, sir.

You replied to me and called me a punk?

Yet all I did was point out a simple item, and had not posted before in this thread, (except for the popcorn eating smiley back on page 3 or so, because for some reason these threads always turn out to be a real show.)

And you call me a punk for this?

I realize your getting a little stressed, but if this were in person, I'd knock you out, and I really detest violence.

Your hubris is overwhelming. No wonder these threads are always a show.

RWE;

Liar24 is supposedly close enough to our neck of the woods to invite him up for a face-to-face. All he has to do is bring that Win. M70 .375H&H rollstamped "Made in Columbia, SC". Wonder why he won't accept?

Lee the only "punk" on this thread is YOUR lying ass...

You HAVE NO CREDIBILTY HERE. Period.

Ray A . re-read this thread and probably came to the same conclusion the rest of the folks on this forum have for a LONG time.

You are a delusional, egotistical ,LIAR.

You really should crawl back into the sewage manhole you came from along with the rest of your Bullschit..

Lee,

maybe someone has commented on this already, so I'll be brief.

These are very nice pictures of finished boats. But the lumber could have come from anywhere.

Post a picture of something that ties you to the machine. Patent? Documents? an original work you published? anything at all to "validate" the quantity of experience you "claim" to have. Because right now, it's just "chatter". Unvalidated internet noise. Lee, some people do want to believe the things you say. Problem is, you have painted your area of "expertise" with such a broad brush you now have to post credentials to be taken seriously by anyone here.

CLB

RWE, your posts were nowhere near Ray's, but I guess it makes you feel good to say I called you a punk, when I didn't. The punks know who they are.

You also know that Ray Atkinson didn't change his mind about what I said concerning walnut woods and sawing logs for gun stocks. There is a right way to do things, and all of us who know the right way will happen to be in agreement. So I happen to be in agreement with a lot of knowledgeable gun stock builders. Those who don't know the right way disagree with, or don't believe us. Some of them are rude about it.

My post:



Your reply:


since no one else gave you reason to notice Mr Atkinsons retraction, how could I not assume you called me a punk?



No it doesn't make me feel good. I got no dog in this fight. Just standing on the principle that you were holding Mr atkinson's reply in regard, and he retracted.

CLB, I can explain in detail how the machines I design actually work: the bearings, the motors, the routers, the embedded real-time software. Anyone with a brain can tell that I am not making it up, and you are smart enough to know that.

Why would I want to advertise who I am to some folks here who seem to be so hostile and mentally unstable? I can discuss the technical side with the sane adults without discussing my identity, or theirs.

This gem will make a great addition to this list of your accomplishments I created a few posts ago. Thanks!

Words without validation = NOISE

Lee, the reason is the "masses" here including myself have never reached the level of education and professionalism as you have claimed for yourself. You have painted yourself as "gods gift" to industry which you have included the shooting industry. You now have the moral obligation to post your credentials. And this is due to the fact that your areas of "expertise" need to be counted with use of a calculator. You have the opportunity to quench the thirst of many, but you fail to seize it.

RWE, since you are in High Point, you can run over to Baker Furniture, near Winston Salem. They were one of the first fine furniture manufacturers to adopt CNC. I designed a custom machine for them in 1984, in order to carve the posters on their Charleston Rice Bed. They could, of course, build any other part they want to on it. Haven't been back there in 20 years, and assume they wore the old machine out and upgraded to a new one. There are lots of choices on the market now for big production woodworking.

This link is to an interior design firm, because it has photos of the Baker furniture which permit you to zoom in on the details cut by the router, using programmed tool changes.

http://www.kohlerinteriors.com/bake...eds&subcategory=&coll_id=324050#

All that expertise and still can't operate a camera............

Actually, I sent photos of that Model 70 to someone who can afford to buy it.

What's the price tag on that M70?

How much am I worth Lee? Do you know? Maybe I want to buy it.

How about any of the other posters here? Any ideas?

Maybe somebody else could afford it. Heck, you might get a bidding war going and get a lot more for it.

How do you know that one select unnamed individual is actually able to afford it? Did you run a credit check on him before sending him the pictures? Or did you just take his word for it, like you expect us to take your word for all of your "accomplishments"?

Come on Lee, post a picture here, and embarass all of us who "can't" afford it. Rub our noses in it and gloat with pride that you have something that we can't write the check for.

In case you need it... www.photobucket.com . Surely a multi-pedigreed engineer such as yourself can figure it out, and apparently you DO have the pictures of it....

If I sell one of my Model 70s, it would not be to a troll, at any price. I don't sell any nice gun to someone unless I know thy appreciate what they are getting.

But a troll has a better chance of seeing my Model 70 than they have of seeing triggerguard back up his claims about "JIT manufacturing at Winchester", or seeing VAnimrod to reveal the names of his alleged sources which said they never made the rifles that I, and some of my friends, now own.

What's the asking price?

Fair question.

Money talks, bullschit walks.

What's the price?

what in the hell does ensuring that a gun goes to someone that appreciates it have to do with posting a picture of the [bleep] thing to even prove you have it. the ideas arent mutually exclusive.....dumbass.....

Spite. Surely you, of all people, are aware of that concept.

I've got a brand new Super Express 416 that says you don't have it.......

I've had that offer for over a year and you're the only one in the world that would turn down a free rifle, when all it requires is a picture of the one that never existed.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP PERMANENTLY

fully aware of the concept, but i aint the one claiming im something i aint than getting b!tchy when the boys here dont believe me....

you have yet to show real proof of just one thing you say you are.....the rest of us have no such issues....

Not sure which post I indicated I was in High Point, but yes I am there, right now in fact.

What reason would I have to do all of this?

Although I am in High Point, I am not a furniture expert. I do know, for economic reasons that Baker had plants in Mocksville, that moved to Hildebrand, but none that I know of in W-S. Although Kohler did have plants there before they bought Baker.

From the furniture nuts I know, Baker was and is renowned for their hand carving, which I'm sure does not apply to the bed posts of which you refer.

Anyway, I bow out of this fencing match, as I have no reason to either verify or condemn anyone's claims in this dispute which seems to predate my signing onto this board.

My only reason to speak up anymore than my popcorn post was a matter of forum formality and did not constitute any reasonable, real world representation of proof, discovery, evidence, or rules of order.

Lastly, I love computers. Enjoyed my own run with CNC's when I was a boy making ends meet in a machine shop as a floor sweeper (not a designer). Got to do some neat stuff after production hours.

But gun stocks really deserve hand tools.

My work in progress. Sorry no walnut, as it's still producing nuts.

Enjoy.

I didn't bother to look up where Baker has moved their manufacturing. All the furniture plants in NC have been in turmoil for years. Like guns, most people don't know quality or design, so they buy junk made in Asia or Mexico. Kohler is obsessive about quality in their core business, plumbing fixtures, too.

Baker is known for their hand carving. I am just telling you that I proved CNC capability to them by machine carving their most difficult signature piece, a fluted bed post with pineapple and rice head motifs. They said they would only use the machine to carve most of it and then finish it out by hand to preserve the individuality of each piece, and they seem to have done that.

I could provide a lot more links to other clients in furniture, boats, aerospace, firearms, cabinets, windows, doors, stair rails, pianos, guitars, etc, but you seem to get the point.

lee: you will be known by your unsung deeds not by your boosts. i would rather be hated for whom i am than loved for who i am not.

Liar24;

What's the price on the M70, .375H&H, rollstamped "Made in Columbia, SC"?

It's obviously for sale, given your quote above. So, what's the price?

lee24,

i diddn't say air pistol - i said some events. sure, you can cherry pick events and 97% is tough, however, i was thinking rifle, as that's where our (you & me) conversation began, and as your supposedly (in your mind) the big palma kahuna - 97% is only a 437.5/450. nra high power - 485/500. nra prone - 1552/1600 (now that's really tough!!!). i realise you're the great pistol shooter, and have made great claims:



while i only ask a couple simple questions, as i originally inquired in an effort to gain some of your knowledge to help some of my friends who are trying out for the palma team. i guess you're just to stuck on yourself to help.

I'd love to see a list of about 1/2 dozen matches Liar24 supposedly competed in, and scored at least 97%.

How 'bout Liar24? If you're that damned good, cough up the list. Asking price on the M70, too, while you're at it.

lee24,

i forgot about all the shotgun events, especially american trap......

sorry, guys. i guess i'll just drop it, as he aint gonna play.....

Atkinson's failure to read Lee's comments before responding, failure to rescind his comments after reading Lee's posts, affirmation of Lee's comments by adding his own absurd walnut comments, and extending his own condemnation of anything but quartersawn Turkish says far more about Ray than Lee.

They are in the same boat, IMO&E...
art

He's a pathological liar.......Plain and simple.

Lee24,

Did I miss the photos of your work? When will you be posting them. One of your CNC machining centers would be nice. With provenance.

Oh by the way how has Don Allen been?

Don Allen passed away some years ago, you rube.

Is there a reason you are now calling me names? How old are you? This childish response has no place on the web or anywhere else. I have a hardtime believing you would say such things in person so is it the distance thru the web that you feel safe? Children act the way you are.

I was supportive up to now just hoping you would see the wisdom in posting proof of your claims.

What name do you call people who joke about someone who has passed away, like you did? Maybe it is better than "rube".

I asked a question is all? Who was joking?

10 pages and still no picture from LIAR24........

Here's some documentation that lends to my credibility, which is leaps and bounds beyond anything you've ever published on this site or any other.









Here's the rifle up for free taken from its stock pictured below, along with a custom shop unfinished model straight from Italy.








That's how credibility is posted and confirmed..........

What about the "JIT at Winchester" which you are unable to explain?
That doesn't help your credibility.

You're still a Liar and Weasel in the highest order and every post confirms that exponentially.

Lee..your a LIAR and have zero credibility.
Matt on the other hand has credibility and unlike you have proven his credentials....though proof for him wasnt required as you can read between his lines in his posts.

Wanna prove us wrong.

Post the pic of your imaginary rifle.

Someone speculated about Beretta being into JIT and all that for 20 year, so I posted articles showing that they had only implemented it at the end of 2006.

triggerguard tries another bluff about his special knowledge of JIT at Winchester, then is unable to offer one shred of evidence, which I would really like to see, being a consultant in this area since the early 1980s.

So his inability to back up his claims makes me "a liar". Yeah, right.

No your actions make you a liar. The information you claim to have can be Googled through a business asset directory. Information anyone could get by never even leaving the safety of their computer bunker.

JIT was used and cancelled at USRAC before you were old enough to flip burgers Liar. Just because a newspaper-funded, pimple faced kid wasn't at their facility taking notes and writing articles on the subject, so you could sit naked in your bean bag chair eating cheetos, surfing the web, don't mean it didn't happen.


Why would they cancel it you ask? Because the system is terribly flawed for anyone, other than the general contractor of a job. Subcontractors must make lots of parts and then sit on them, or they spend all their money setting up and tearing down, requiring that they charge more per part to offset the downtime and lack of productivity.
If they make lots of parts, they're out raw materials, disposable tooling and labor, until they can recoup the costs down the line when the parts are allowed to ship.

Winchester figured this out, not early enough for me, that it was costing more money than inventory that they had to sit on for a few months.

Unlike you, I have 100% first-hand knowledge of JIT and how much it sucks and how it nearly bankrupted me in the process.

If in fact you had anything to do with the advent of JIT, which I completely doubt, you deserve repeated beatings to your nutsack with a cane. It is without a doubt one of the worst things to hit the manufacturing arena since OSHA.

One of these days, when I'm 90, I'll be able to say that I've forgotten more about the firearms industry than you will ever know, but I'm in my prime and unlike you, I'm not forced to guess, since the memory chip is working just fine.

So, now that I've proven that photobucket and this site work pretty well..........


WHERE'S THE PIC LIAR

And it turns into fertilizer and feeds his warped ego...........

Stephen King would get arthritis typing up his resume.

Nice little story you told about "Just-in-Time at Winchester", but no names, no dates, no details, no references, ..... no way to verify any of it. But let's assume your story is, at least from your external viewpoint, accurate.

I never had any problems implementing my parts of JIT at Honda, IBM, Toyota, or GM. If your story is true, it sounds like they just didn't know what they were doing, or had suppliers who couldn't live up to it, or both.

Lee....why not produce the rifle???

I saw Lee posted again and I thought to myself..."surely he has shown proof now"................but alas, he once again proved me wrong.

No proof from Liar24.

He would make quite a politician.

Spin, Spin, Spin................

Finn, you didn't name the exact detailed information I know which you claim, "anyone can Google". Let's see you do it.

Sitka, it really galls you that Ray Aktinson said, "everything Lee24 has posted about walnut is correct."

We had this argument several years ago. You've had plenty of time to study up and not make your boneheaded comments. I don't pity you. You crapped in your hat.

Kinda like another poster, who should change his handle to Muhammad Ali. Duck and dodge, keep moving, duck and dodge.... "I am the GREATEST!"

The point was that I've provided you with wayyyyyyy more than you'll ever deserve. The pictures alone are worth months of BS'ing the fans from another site I'm sure.

Unless you're working overtime at BK, there's no good reason why you can't post the picture of the infamous SC model 70. That is of course all of us taking you on your word that you do in fact own it, but we both know that's not the case.

Some of your lies are easily disproven with your own links, where others are just too rediculous to believe, but the SC Model 70 is without a doubt the subject you'll dodge for the rest of your life, simply because no matter how much babble you spew upon the innocent bystanders of this forum, you'll be known as a liar.

I've always figured that if a guy lies about one thing, he's bound to lie about more things. Maybe with all this great exposure your getting to your career, it will save someone else the misery of believing any of your BS on any subject.

See my post above about JIT at Beretta for the correct way to post factual information from personal knowledge, then back it up with links to credible news stories and press releases.

Never mind.

You get off on the attention. I'm done.

Lee, give it up...............you lost!

If I do, will you finally show the picture of the infamous mod 70 I've heard so much about?

Lee
You and Atkinson are one hell of a team! Neither of you are bright enough to light a match... Let alone dry a piece of lumber.
art

Lee,

I've run across a lot of losers in my life. You take the cake. You're nothing but a legend in your own mind.

Game, set, match............

Back to the original question:

If our log is wide enough to get a gunstock out of the middle, it will have to be at least 30 inches, and probably larger, to cut a 12 inch board from each side of the heart wood, and back from the bark wood. You should cut the tree before the core rots out at all.

If you don't want to quartersaw it, you can bring your saw blade 1.5 inches off dead center each side and cut the center board, which can then have the heartwood ripped out.

You may be able to plain saw another good board each side on even a log as small as 36 inches, while still retaining good grain, and picking up figure that is not too different each side of the board.

See if you can find a local lumber yard or cabinet shop with a kiln to help dry your wood more than you could do air drying in years. Best of luck.

I don't have the link to the rifle I posted made from black walnut grown on my farm. It is really blackish, too, but turned out well. If you cannot find it, a Mauser 6.5x55mm takedown, I can send more photos.

OK, do it.

Tom
He is getting desperate for attention. How about we do not give it to him?
art

Sounds good. How about none of you post any insults to anyone here again?

lee24,

i never insulted, only asked questions of you, yet you turn and insult me.

what up with that?????

now,now, boys

How about you post some proof of the bullschit claims you've made?

Starting with evidence of the Model 70 in .375H&H, roll stamped "Made in Columbia, SC", along with the asking price?

How about a list of about 5 or 6 competitions that you scored at least 97%?

That'll be a start.......... though I doubt you'll ever even enter the blocks.

Heck, you invited him to shoot at a competition with you (as your guest, IIRC), and he first ignored you like a leper, then started insulting you when you pushed him on that and his false claims. Go figure..............

If he qualifies for one of the same events I decide to shoot in, then he will get to shoot against me. Same for you, hotshot.

What's your next one?

What, where, when so I can witness this as well. Always wanted to meet a legend.

lee24,

how quickly we forget? you challenged me at long range high power (ie palma), you announced you were a superior rifle shooter (your exact words), i'm just trying to accomodate your challenge...... why are you now backpedaling and trying to change what you originally said??

lee24,

you also implied that you were a member of the usamu international rifle team when you told me that fort benning supplied you with an isu rifle and ammunition. so if you would rather a different rifle event i would understand, and gladly accomodate that challenge - maybe we could sell tickets!!

sorry, but just have to share (from the competition page):

You'll get nowhere with him.

Once reality sets in completely, he'll probably be suck-starting a Smith & Wesson.

One could only hope.

I would never advocate driving someone to that stage. Well, OK, maybe just this once.

We would not drive him there. Maybe just buy him a one way ticket . . . . . .

The only topic I've ever seen on the Campfire that I really knew something sbout. I grew up in the architectural millwork industry and either saw or made every mistake that can be made with selecting, machining, treating, and/or specifying wood.

Damn. Damn. Damn.

I get all ginned up to educate you guys and Savage2005 gets it exactly right, on the first page of the thread. Not fair. John Atkinson also gets it exactly right on the virtue of quartersawn...for any application involving very large, short-lived stress. Like, say, a 416 Rigby being fired. Sorry, but this stuff ain't rocket science. These things have been known and well-understood for well over a thousand years.

So, I kept reading, disappointed though I was.

I am a newcomer here, and thus without bias as to known azzhats. HERE'S THE TRUE RULE: Lee24 is jerking your chains. But, I sure would like to see a pic of that FN/Win70 .375...

Since this is still going on and I won't read the entire diatribe I figure adding the solution at this time will provide an end to this fracas.

With a hacksaw.

Good post...but as you said, you're new here...

Some of us won't understand it unless you rephrase it...

"...this stuff is not rocket surgery...."


Ingwe

good post and welcome to the 'fire !

you're welcome to play along with the rest of us:

the game is to guess both which diploma Lee will have next plus the google link he'll post to "verify" the previous PhD. Triple points for getting them both right on the same Lee reply.

I think he will have a PhD in Rocket Surgery...

Ingwe

I'm still trying to figure out why a guy would want to write his own RTOS for 68xxx when there have been so many good ones available almost from the start. And OS/2? Maybe with a gun to my head. But then I live in an 8 bit world, mostly.

The RTOS which exist today did not exist in the mid-1980s.
Neither did off-the-self servo and stepper motor axis controllers.
The PC was still 8-bit.

That is why real-time data acquisistion systems, machine control and avionics were developed in embedded real-time operating systems designed and developed from the ground up for 32-bit processors like the Z-8000, 68000, and NS-32000 series, usually on VME bus or Multibus.

By 1987, I was able to develop modular RTOS with a micro kernel and plug-and-play device drivers, for the Intel 80286, which is totally portable to the 80386 and Pentium chips. Once you have done that, why would you spend time and money using QNX, VRTX, Wind River - which are intended for programmers who don't know how and don't need to know how to create the OS, only the application. My RTOS has support for the PC console in all modes, as well as RS-232 terminals, a windowing system in text mode and a GUI, which most of those commercial systems lacked until recently, and still lack.

OS/2, being a genuine real-time operating systems which had a GUI interface, made a lot of sense for machine control, and was used for that. IBM mismanaged its development and application.

Over 98% of the software running in the word is embedded real-time, much of it still written from scratch, starting on the iron. Others have enough memory and board size to use 8, 16, and even 32-bit commercial operating systems. Many still use microcontrollers, like the ARM or PIC, with their own little RTOS tools.

Oh there were some around by the mid-'80s like OS-9, had a lot of fun playing with it. Beyond the kernel you only needed to load what you needed and in fact didn't have to load the whole kernel. It was easy to extend and it even had a GUI though it was painfully slow. Never liked Intel architecture with its bizarre (to me) page switching scheme and anything from MS-DOS which comes off as a kludge. Even now you have to reboot to do something as simple as dismount a driver. What little PC code I write is as far from the iron as I can get.

I play with PIC chips for fun and even on the low end people are abandoning assembler for C and licensing code libraries. If you look at the 18xxx instruction set you'll find it was written to favor C, never mind the 16 bit chips. I haven't found a need for a RTOS for my projects though interrupt handlers can get a little complex. Mostly it's just easier to let an ISR run to completion with one or two higher priority interrupts allowed. Context switching overhead can kill you.

OS-9 was around for the Motorola 6809 and its offspring.
OS-9 is still around for bigger chips today.
A former Mostek engineer and I even wrote a real-time, even-driven version of CP/M for the 8080 and Z-80, with an extended BASIC language centered around the event handlers, much like Visual Basic was 15 years later.

Vesta and other such companies had their real-time C compilers, which were really nice. You could write it over an RS-232 line to the main board, run it, and then ROM it right there, even remotely over the phone.

But when your ISR is complex or involves handshaking like a terminal session, TCP/IP, or has enough dead time between packets or characters, you can need to be able to switch tasks. Doing this, you can run 8 terminals, a parallel printer, console keyboard, and real-time DAC like multi-axis, coordinated motor control and vision systems, with all that slower stuff in background, on an 8-Mhz 80286.

The last one I developed from the low level was in C and mostly the DSP assembly, on a PC-104 bus, with dual DSP chips having their memory dumped DMA to the Pentium's RAM in one clock cycle. The setup interface and real time control in Watcom C++, ran on that Pentium under QNX. The operator interface was written in C++ for Windows.

C is too loose, and C++ is a cobbled fix. I'd rather have encapsulation over inheritance any day.

For C, I long ago wrote a wrapper for every bit of the Intel BIOS and direct calls, then a hierarchy of code modules. Same for C++ and an object hierarchy. Stub everything you think might warrant using someone else's code library.

Most complex RT application I ever worked on was from the ground up, on the PowerPC. I had rolled my own 64-bit system in 1987 and two of us had written our assembly language for it, but the PowerPC was way more complex, especially with the tight memory constraints.

I, Me, My, and Mine. They'll get you every time!

This is my first and last post about Lee. It is so obvious he is simply playing with you guys, trolling around just to get your goat. He must be giggling all the while he reads your responses.

Why don't you just ignore him?

Ted

This thread is still going? kwg

DMA in one cycle? Must be tiny or a ton of dual port.

All that time slice task switching is convenient if you have cycles and stack to spare, then you don't have to think much about timing. In 8 bit controllers there's rarely that luxury. And by the time you figure the preemptive part, and the blocking part, context switching overhead, and so on, you're usually better off making it interrupt driven. Which is sort of like a RTOS except interrupts rather than the system clock control task switching and priorities, blocking, etc. are in the ISR and/or interrupt handler (ISR for each task with a handler directing the flow) rather than at system level. Eliminates a lot of overhead and there's usually not so many tasks that it's too hard to manage. Dependencies can be a gotcha though, depending on how you structure your code. If it gets to be too much, usually it's easiest to add another processor - silicon is cheap. There is a trend to turn to 16 and even 32 bit parts where an 8 bitter will do just for the extra resources but it is inelegant!

For tiny stuff C being "loose" is a virtue. It allows you to get almost as close to the iron as assembler when you need to without adding inline assembler code which can cause its own set of problems. You can still do encapsulation but it's your responsibility rather than the language's. And it's low level enough that processor specific extensions are sensible. You'll have to take up C++ with Stroustrup, I don't use it much. I've fallen into Python for what little I need on the desktop.

I still don't like the old Intel architecture though compilers hide (most of) the warts.

Time to return to your regularly scheduled program.

The app with the DMA from DSP memory to program control (Pentium) memory was 50,000 words (32-bit) of a 3-D point cloud for a laser contour range and mapping system ( IOW, map a 3D surface in real time).

Golly. I thought this would be over by today. Not so fast.

Lee's posts remend me of a line in a very old, very funny Bill Cosby routine. The premise is sort of a Black Professor Irwin Corey. Cosby's line, designed to be inexplicable (read "bullshit"):

"Who 'de one dey say got the rebersober on the motorcycle? Hmmmm?"

Stand back. I'm gonna give it a try;

"The standard industry premise (as I learned while instructing at the Sorbonne) is to posit G = f/llk over n, where G is distance of the optical interface from the CADCAM b-reader, f is the inverse of the cube root of pi, k is the bit speed (as I determined while at Cal Tech), n is a 10th degree prime number, and 11 is a constant. How many times do I need to repeat this?"


So. How'd I do? Constructive criticism earnestly solicited.

That's kind of funny.
At least you admit you didn't comprehend our techno side conversation, without getting hostile about it.

Old hat. Obviously you've not kept up with research in the field since leaving the Sorbonne. If Cal Tech would collaborate with MIT then you'd know. Not to mention Cern's work interfacing sensors at the Large Hadron Collider (though it's a "quarky" system).

Well first yer gonna need a saw.

What are you trying to do???? Get this thread back on track?

Gotta go, large download is over.

Quarky? Quarky? As in Quarks? Mu mesons? Dark matter? String theory?

Wait, I get it. Jeff Cooper used to give names to his firearms. "Quarky" is Dave's FN/M70 .375.

Wpsuth: You explanation is mostly correct, but you forgot to include the cube root of torn underwear.

Edited to correct, The fingers tend get out of sync on the vowels. Thank you.

before Lee24 corrects you, 1minute... the word is spelled

UNDERWEAR...

LOL..

In a little known subnote, Lee24 was instrumental in designing the original sewing machines used by Haynes.

Hanes subcontracted the sewing of their underwear, mostly to Stone Manufacturing. As a matter of fact, a sewing machine mechanic at Stone held over 50 patents for improvements to their sewing machines, which were licensed back to the manufacturers, netting him some nice royalty checks over his career.

My apologies in advance for bringing this back to surface. There is a tremendous amount of disinformation in this thread and there are likely many confused by the whole thing.

To start, black walnut is a fine stock wood. The best of it is as good as it comes anywhere, from any tree. It is the nature of wood growing wild to be affected by growing conditions and vary greatly in the end due to that variability. In general, however, black walnuts are not as dense, fine-grained, stiff, strong, or hard as Juglans regia, the European or thin-shelled walnuts, but more than adequate for virtually any stock.

Many areas, notably the "Fertile Crescent" around Turkey, has amazing, extremely old walnuts being cut for stock blanks. The wood is hard, dense, beautiful and much has the difficult-to-describe depth when finished which puts prices into the stratisphere. Even the best black walnut will never have the depth.

Suggesting black walnut is 8% of anything compared to European walnuts is ridiculous as strengths of both vary hugely. However, if one were to use an average, European walnuts run harder, heavier, stronger, stiffer and far less inclined to split than black walnuts. Exactly opposite what Lee24 posted.

While Turkish walnut is structurally outstanding for stocks, Bastogne or paradox walnut is every bit as good on a blank by blank basis. It is not generally as pretty as the best Turkish and frequently has a greenish cast which many do not really like. It is 100% American in origin, a mule cross between claro (a native NA black walnut) and any European walnut. It is frequently planted as a shade tree because it does not make the nut mess of other walnuts.

Quarter-sawing is NOT all it has been made out to be here, in the best walnuts, especially. Wood shrinks and expands according to moisture content and it does so more in the tangential plane than the radial plane. Quartersawing orients the radial plane through the greatest dimension, the depth, of the stock. It orients the width on a tangential plane. The only structural advantage is the reduced movement in reaction to water is in the longest dimension. That leaves the most reactive dimension oriented in the narrowest direction.

If you are using oak for a stock wood that might make a difference... But with well-seasoned Turkish walnut? Give me a break! In poorly seasoned wood, finished with oil you might possibly see a problem with other woods, but never with Turkish, done well.

The next advantage to quartersawing is the way it enhances fiddleback figure. Wood fibers bend back and forth primarily in a tangential plane. When quartersawn the fibers are interrupted repeatedly and light is refracted most on the quartered faces. Top and bottom are virtually devoid of fiddle.

I apologize for the ugly stocks, unsuited for any firearm, but this an example of the figure as I tried to describe it above. The upper stock is quartersawn and the bottom is flat sawn. Both came from the same piece of wood and were side by edge in the slab. Boardsawn wood shows marbling (caused by fungus digesting sugars in wood) and burl better than quartersawn.





Burl is a function of erratic and unusual growth at the cellular level and is NOT related to the base or roots as Lee24 stated. The meristem tissue which replicates as a function of growth suddenly decides to change its job description from "stem meristem" to "apical meristem" and starts growing out as a point rather than a member of a flat layer. It can happen anywhere in trees.

Wood drying in mills is very controled and the goal is to produce the most wood with the least degrade at the best cost... Cheaper balancing degrade. But there are lots of variables. Considering bunks of lumber waiting to be kiln-dried will often force a mill to speed the drying of one lot, increasing degrade in that lot, to reduce the possibly worse degrade in waiting bunks.

None of which should have any affect on stock blanks, because stock wood should not be kilned. Air-drying is not inferior to kiln-drying, just slower. Done properly, kiln-dryied is not close to air-dried because it has been dried faster than it should be for the best wood. "Brash" is a term used to describe most kiln-dried walnut and refers to splintery, erratic cutting as fibers break off ahead of and below the cutting edge producing rough channels and flaked-out areas.

Now for the part that really chaps my azz... Ray Atkinson, after repeated claims as a stockmaker posted:

"As a matter of fact the one that has made the most since on the subject, as to gun stock wood is Lee 24, I don't know him or from whence he came, but most of what he said in the begining of this thread is correct."

Actually, virtually nothing posted by Lee24 was correct. For Lee24 Squared to step in and post such utter garbage is hard to believe. The source is his ego claiming only the very best is good enough for his "talents" and his guns.
art

You could have stopped at "the opposite of what Liar24 posted".

call me crazy.......but of the two pictured above, i like the board sawn one the best.....course some consider me not right in the head anyway

We had a roof like that when I was a boy too!

Who is that? I got questions!








And damn you SD for pointing me to this thread!

in Jersey?

rattler,
Neither is hard on the eyes and both are a tad handy, but the mauser is significantly heavier than Miss T's Seven.

I have the sole remaining blank from that slab waiting for inspiration... Considering a Win 69A, 22LR.
art

Mike
PM sent.
art

from a different thread yesterday.......



all i can say is he must not spend anytime fishing to think a fish finder is cheating.....

very cool

Reminds me of the Emo Phillips line, "My parents are afraid... They think I am going to reproduce!"

No more than I would consider 10 acres of land in Saddle River NJ a dairy farm.............................

What's the problem with having 625 acres of timber in the middle of pastures larger than that?

Uh, oh. I just used words you don't understand, like "timber", "acres", and "pasture". I apologize.

Nor do I understand words like dunce, liar, pompous, vainglorious, complaisant, deluder, prevaricator............

Mr Finn
I think you are trying to trick us... I bet you know what every one of those words means...
art

Stunning wood!

Innovative technique there Art, actually taking your own pics instead of ripping them off the internet like some do. (wink!)

Now, when he grows his own trees, logs them, saws them, cures the wood, lays out the stock, and works it from the blank, he can add the finishing method he likes.

Just in case the OP is still reading this thread.

You might want to talk to
http://www.swordswalnutshop.com/
or
http://www.crosswoodstimberproducts.com/

I purchased a blank from crosswods on ebay a couple years ago. I've also made a purchase or two from swords.

They may or may not be able to help you, but they are both in Illinois and might be able to point you in the right direction.

Yes, but on the second day Sitka Deer created trees.

Ingwe

ingwe, you seem to post a lot of gay-looking photos. What's up with that?

STFU you crack pot! That guy posts some really hot chicks here. Keep 'em coming.

Actually, I thought the guy that played Sulu was gay, and Shatner was just an egocentric ass.

I may be mistaken. Not an authority on either.

RWE, it's good you added that disclaimer on not being an authority of the gayness of photos posted by ingwe. Anyone who thinks Shatner is a "hot chick" is in the wrong web site here. But if inqwe is posting pictures of genuine "hot chicks", he is probably 15 years old, anyway.

Dumba$$, why don't you go play at Dem Underground or MoveOn. You have zero credibility here, you are the brunt of every joke, and are on most people's ignore list.

[bleep] off and die.

Not sure the posting of "hot chicks" is relegated to 15 year olds, nor more so than slants alluding to the acquisition of gay pictures would be.

Ingwe

Got that poster over your bed, ingwe, covering the cheesecake poster so you mama won't see it? Your dream job, and dream girl. You're living the dream.

hey lee24!

back out from hiding, huh? are you gonna come shoot long range high power or what? you tell us you have no palma rifle - you can use mine, and i'll provide the ammo! or i'm pretty confident that a number of the other competitors would let you use their rifles and ammo, all i would have to do is ask. the ball is in your court.

Lee;


Ingwe

I thought you were offended by "cheesecake" pictures Lee.

We need to get Steelhead to post up the Ding Fries are Done youtube clip. Lee was the first person that came to mind with that one. Fry Captain........

Some guys sure have BIG bladders Clint

And some don't abuse them.

Hey, Liar24....................

What shooting competition are your going to be entering next? Date, time, and location, please...............

That's [bleep]' HILARIOUS!

Numb-rod,
What shooting event are YOU going to enter this year?
What is the highest level you have achieved?
Master?
State championship?
National championship?
National record?
World championship?
World record?

Lee24?????

Huh?

Tom264, I see your "Huh?" is a link to some other shooting forum, where I have never been, much less created an account.

I assume one of the rubes here created some phony account in order to post something and smear me. I am not going to bother to even click on it. If you want to ask a question about it, go ahead.

How do you know if its some other shooting forum? you just said your not even going to click on it.

BTW how is that 16" barreled .410 going anyway?

Tom:

Even though you did not get your catch into the boat, I think we can all agree he did take your bait...

Better fishing next time!

John

Computer lesson of the day for you dolts:

If you right click on the html link, it will allow you to view what it is, or "copy link location" and paste it into the browser bar to see what it is.

I know. That is why I said what I did. Clearly you were curious enough to see what the link was, even if you did not click on it.

Now, read what I typed again and again until you see why I typed that you took the bait but were not lifted into the boat...

Guys, you were right... Lee24 is about as smart as a box of hair... and about as much fun to argue with. Sorry I doubted you.

John

lee24,

etiquette lesson of the day:

if you offer to "shoot against" somebody, and that somebody is in agreement, you should be obliged to make it happen, not deny or avoid the offer.

"etiquette" much like reality doesn't exist in Lee's cyber world. Maybe you can go on a hunt in Lee's Enchanted Forest.

Some of you might flatter yourselves that I "offered to shoot against you" or "challenged you" - you just feel challenged.

I have shot against the best in the world in several totally different disciplines. Why would I, or anyone else for that matter, fly across the country to shoot against some noname boaster on a web site, who probably won't be there?

If I want to compete again, I will show up and some event where my ranking lets we walk on and compete. If these campfire big mouths are any good, they'll be there. Otherwise, it was more of their hot air from momma's basement.

Is it going to take 10-15 pages of back and forth to find out you're lying about this too, like your FN employment?

Not the question at hand?

You keep talking about how well you can shoot, and how often, and that others are welcome to compete against you.

Well........... when and where, b!tch.

lee24,

you really haven't a clue, do you? to make things easier i could easily find a tournament closer to you - such as quantico, or camp butner (your in south carolina, right), those locations would be convenient for you. however, but contrary to your suggestion, you might stand me up!

as jeff (rost495) noted, shooting against the best says nothing about how well you did........ share some of your results, and i'll share some of mine.

just for curiosity, what tournaments allow 'walk-ons' regardless of ranking - other than YOUR OWN!!!

i've learned that pistol may be your stronger discipline, but it was you that professed to be a superior rifle shooter, and it was you that desired to shoot against me - i wasn't looking for it, but since you brought it up, i aim to please!

i am by choice and nature a very tolerant person and new to this forum and enjoy the peoples canter and expertise. but this type of communication with lee24 should stop it takes us nowhere. ignore his posts until he is civil.

THAT'S tellin' them Lee!!!


You GO Girl!!!!


Here, just post this next time you wanna tell them who's who...



Ingwe

If any of you clowns actually shot competitively, the matches of any consequence are posted on the Internet, so you could direct us all to your real name and your scores... if.

Don't forget to post photos of the unicorn you killed.

Man,
I have been away from this thread for a while. I figured after 40pages the black walnut was all trimmed into toothpicks by now.
Butch

lee24

why don't you start. like i said earlier: share some of your results and i'll share some of mine. but it ain't about me: i'm not making the claims, you are.

i'll give you that i may have misinterpreted your palma statement and were never on a team, so i will no longer pursue that question, but keep us in the dark no longer, just answer the other questions.

You first, Mr. shot-against-the-best-in-the-world; consistently-score-97%-or-better-in-competition.....

Let's see it......................

Not that we ever will.

Now, about your next competition: when and where?

EDMHUNTER,
Just wondering, did you ever get your question answered?

Now who didn't see that coming?

Nimrod, you are the one who claims to want to compete. So, where are you competing in the next year, and what events? If you have competed in the last 5 years at any worthwhile level, your scores would be on the NRA or some similar website. So where are they?

If you're directing that at me numbnuts, I've never competed, though I have little doubt your ass would be handed to you on round one.

Probably none, as I don't compete officially any longer, but...

I hold a Master Long Range card from the NRA, that was EARNED in competition, not internet bragging. And you don't get it for one lucky match. It's an average of many matches, requiring you to stay on top of your game.

Multiple state championships, in military (Guard) matches, in rifle (four times), pistol (twice), machine gun, and sniper rifle. In one particularly good year, I won ALL FOUR disciplines, in a single year. Never done by anyone else, before or since.

Three time winner of a regional military match, fired on a format resembling an NRA High Power match (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone). I shot against Air Force, Army, Navy, and Marine shooters from a four state region, and won individual three times and was on the winning team five teams.

Top three in national level competition, at the Wilson matches (National Guard Championships), with two Chief's 50 wins (awarded to top 20 rifle, top 20 pistol, top 10 MG, and top 10 sniper). I won it with the rifle, twice. The Wilson matches are a weeklong event, where you shoot probably 20 or so different matches. Everything from 25 yards out to 600 yards. Your cumulative score over the week determines the winner. Again, not a lucky day, but a strong sustained effort, against 200 (!) other competitors, puts you on the stage at the end.

Was selected to, and SHOT ON, the All-Guard International team. Actually went to, and competed in, Brisbane, Australia, against other militaries from around the world. I was there for almost a month competing daily. Came home with a pistol gold medal in the team event, along with a smattering of lesser stuff. That one, by the way Lee, was paid for with your tax dollars. You don't get to represent your country abroad, on their nickel, by being a poser...

EARNER of the Distinguished Rifleman Medal, along with having the silver version in pistol (I was never as good with a pistol, but still managed to amass 22 of the 30 points needed to go distinguished with that one as well....). Again, a long term effort. You earn 6, 8, or 10 points per match, depending on your placement. Only the top 10% of the whole match get ANY points, and that group is divided into thirds when awarding the points. So the top 3% (!) get 10 points, etc, on down. You can only shoot four matches per year, so again, you need to stay on top of your game over time. It is next to impossible to "leg out" in one year. It took me two.... And yes, I did have a 10 point match, which put me ahead of 97% of the other shooters.

These were all EARNED in regulated competitions, over time, against hundreds of other shooters, on many different ranges, under a wide variety of conditions, not some nonsense "walk on, at my own level" dreaming....

So, how about you Lee??

lee24,

your turn!!

(thanks coldbore)

We're waiting.......

or you can give it a little time and consolidate it with a pic posted of your Win.M70 in .375 from SC....


We are enthralled...

Ingwe

I see that inqwe, RWE, VAnimrod, and the other "challegers" have to shooting resume, or plans to shoot any matches.

Instead, they know there are real shooters, like ColdBore, who will show up and post, hoping they can slither off and hide.

Ingwe

lee24,

no, we're waiting for you to provide some proof. once again i'll repeat myself: share some of your results, and i'll share some of mine. you were the initiator by making claims, now show some proof and i will do the same.

wmeek, I left you out of that list who feel "challenged" but post no scores of your own. How will I know if your events interest me, or if I have the skills and gear to compete?

lee24,

good, reasonable response which idicates you have no desire to compete, and i will accept that. just remember though, that it was you that initiated all this when you stated that you were interested in 'shooting against' me in long range (palma) high power rifle.

lee24, you do provide some interesting discussions. thanks for the entertainment.

Personally, I wouldn't care if I won or lost.

I'd just like to see Liar24 try to do what he claims he can do.

So, when and where is your next competition, Liar24?

VAnimrod,

i agree, i would like to see him do what he claims. results are of no concern, as i have defeated, and been defeated by, most everyone who i've competed with at one time or another.... would like to see lee24 to stick to his word. that's all. he made the boast, i was just trying to make it convenient for him to be honorable and stand by it. i even offered different events from which to choose. i would even shoot pistol with him, just to get him on the range - i'm sure i could borrow an air, free, rapid fire, or sport (yeah, the ladies event, if that's what it takes) pistol - but since his scores exceed the winning score from the last olympics, i'd probably be getting in way too deep.



but it'd be a hoot!

Yes, a lot of the scores, like in free pistol and air pistol, were much lower than in years past. 20 years ago, 565 in air pistol wouldn't get you into the shoot off for the US Team. Same for free pistol. You needed to be a consistent 570 shooter to compete internationally.

And a lot of the traditional pistol events were dropped over the years - like Duel, politically incorrect, I suppose. Biathlon went from a centerfire longer range cross country ski event, to a closer range .22 LR event, with some run on bicycle. (Never tried that).

lee24,

a local radio show in tucson, when discussing a city council member with a tendency to avoid/ignore questions and change the subject plays the audio from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y


i just felt it so appropriate!

I don't think a radio talk show in Tuscon is to blame for the camp yahoos not posting the matches they plan to shoot in, and their typical scores in the events.

We're asking YOU (Liar24), you lying, low-life, worthless turd, where YOUR next match will be, and when.

Put the [bleep] up, or shut the [bleep] up, Liar24.

Remember that one boys. You're not likely to see it again.

wow the first time he didn't claim to be an expert at something

Nimrod, we get it already - you've never been a competitive shooter, don't plan to be, and want someone else to do your shooting for you.

How did I get pulled into the shooting dispute, junior?

Never once got off on your (in)ability to shoot competitively, nor criticized any of your accomplishments.

I never claimed that I shoot competitively, because I don't (except for that whole military badge thingy a number of years ago).

Anyway, is there a particular reason I'm on your list now?

You do seem to be quite presumptive.

My apologies, RWE. I must have skimmed that bunch of worthless insult posts too fast, and thought I saw your initials. I confess to not closely reading anything from Numbrod or some of the other habitual offenders here at the fire.

Why apologize?

I took a dig at you for attibuting Ingwe's "hot chick postability" to that of a 15 year, yet you alluded chicanery to his ability to find pics that you thought were gay.

Such allusion could also be attributed to a 15 year old just as easy.

Found it hypocritical.

If this whole debacle means so little to you that you are only skimming the posts, I don't know why you don't put up the proof, shut everyone up, take triggerguard's gun and chop shop it into some blasphemous Russian rimmed cartridge, and move on.

Otherwise, it's hard to take anything you profess too seriously.

Hell, even "trust and verify" had an inspection component.

I, never claimed to be a competition shooter. I, have nothing to prove in that regard, and have simply said I'd want to see your next competition (perhaps enter it).

You, Liar24, have made such claims and have MUCH to prove.

Put the [bleep] up, or shut the [bleep] up.

It like a train wreak you just have to LOOK!!!! Clint

LMAO!!!!

Got to hand it to the old boy, he plays y'all like an accomplished organist plays with his organ.....hehe