This comes up since I've been invited by an old friend to join him and a local hunter friend of his in Idaho (where they live currently) to do some elk hunting there, and he informs me that there are grizzly bear warnings for hunters up there recently, some having been attacked. He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting. Most powerful handgun I have is a .44 Magnum. Have three, in fact, but the lightest one is my S&W 329PD, which is what I'm thinking of packing. But I seem to recall reading an article about ten of fifteen years ago that suggested that there's never been a successful self-defense against a grizzly bear with a handgun, regardless of caliber or load, and that your best self-defense against one is whatever rifle you're hunting with. Thoughts?
PS I remember reading accounts of bear attacks, also, where the hunter attempted self-defense with his rifle, and had the rifle knocked from his hands, resulting in a long drawn out mauling because he had nothing else.
Stories in the lower 48 are yet to be tried on "Mythbusters". It seems that the general rule is to carry bear spray and leave the poor grizzlies alive. A dead bear mauls no one. A sprayed bear lives another day to maul, eat or chase anyone it chooses. Until they allow hunting in the lower 48, Grizzlies will continue to maul and eat humans as they have no fear of them.
Go to Alaska and the bear concentration is magnified 10 fold and they don't send you into bear country with a can of bear spray, they send you with a 375 H&H. I would err on the side of Alaska, and take a gun. Be aware, however, a wounded bear can still maul the crap out of you, so you do need to kill it. The caliber isn't as important as where you shoot it. One shot in the brain will work.
We just spent a week in grizzly country, elk hunting. One Grizzly was seen and thank goodness it turned and ran. The preponderance to have people carry bear spray is another environmental link to keep us unarmed and the bear safe. I will and always have carried a gun for self defense in bear country. I have lived in it all my life and have even killed one of these bears. Bear spray is just seasoning for the hungry bear...
There have been some successful cases of deterring bears with a handgun but why?......If you already have a 30-06 in your hands what are you going to do with it?.......don't add to the confusion with a handgun......be sure your rifle is clean and reliable and fits you well....Don't hang so many gadgets on your rifle that you can't readily use it....I carry a reliable rifle and find a sandwich to be far more comforting than a handgun.
I know old brown bear guides that don't allow handguns in their camps....too many inexperienced clients with bearanoia.
Take the 329pd with a good Buffalo Bore hard cast loading.
I believe you have to use jacketed bullets, or that would have been my first choice too. The concern is that it's so light that recoil will "inertia-pull" the bullets out from their cases and seize up the cylinder from turning. Major bad mojo during a bear attack. I suppose I could experiment with them to see if this is true.
I can think of two successful saves in just the last two years...
Two hunters dropped a moose in Alaska and went back to the boat to get the recovery items...and left their rifles behind. They did however bring a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum back with them. While they were dressing the moose out they looked up to find a big bear standing looking at them...right next to where the hunter had hung the gun on a tree.
The bear charged...one guy jumped in a deep stream bed, the other was caught by the bear. The one in the stream bed would yell at the bear until it would charge over to him leaving his friend for a few moments. The guy in the stream bed was able to get to the gun and when the bear charged one round of .44 Mag in the chest dropped the bear... They had a full story with all the pics....
Then there was the guy out for a walk who "felt" something behind him and when he turned there was GIANT bear coming for him. He had a Ruger Alaskan .454 "snubbie" and the second shot from the gun hit the bear in the mouth and out the back of the head...again a story with full pics. The bear was 900 pounds and was a very very old bear in bad shape...
I have head a lot more successful stories than that...and of course how many "untold" stories are there when a hiker drops a bear and doesn't report it as they don't want the hassle......
If you have a PD I would load it Federal 300 CastCore rounds... They are not as hot as BB and will be easier to control. I gave a 357PD .41 and would use the 250 CC if in BigBear area....
When I am in bear country I carry two types of bear spray. One is called Capsin mix and the other is called a .460 Rowland. If I'm going in deep backcountry I'll leave the Capsin behind in favor of a .458 SOCOM. Bring your .44. You will probably not need it but if you do you'll be awful glad you have it.
A couple of years back there was a guy in Clark, WY who was bounced by a grizzly sow while walking about the foothills of the Bearteeth. She beat him up, bit him about the arms, shoulders and throat, and left him only to turn and come back for a second go. Whereupon he got his .41 Magnum out and killed her with I think three shots to the head and neck. So yes, it can be done.
OK, you guys convinced me. I'll bring it, and I'll try the Federal Cast Core. I'll run a couple of cylinders full through it to make sure I don't get any bullet pulling. Otherwise I'll use some jacketed soft points instead.
I went to the S&W web site and the 329PD should do the job and it's light which means you'll carry it with you. Get rid of the stupid locking device if yours has one. Practice, practice, practice at close range, 10 yards and under, as that is the yardage you'll be most likely be defending your self from a bear at.
Most likely you'll be gutting an elk, deer, etc. when you'll have bear problems and that's when a handgun is most likely to be needed. If possible, have a second person with you when gutting to watch your back. It is amazing how fast a Griz can run or how quiet he can put on the sneak.
if i'm hunting in the back country, i usually carry bear spray and my primary hunting rifle.
i have used the bear spray and it works. i have used the rifle and it works. i don't care if a bear is scared of me or not, as long as i make it home at the end of the hunt. i'ts not my job to kill every bear that shows a little attitude, nor do i wish to.
i also have the S&W 329 and it stays home more often than not.
in the end, bring what you are comfey with, because it's pretty much just a security blanket. if it makes you feel better, it's doing it's job.
I'm with VernAK and would much prefer a rifle to a handgun...but I wouldn't mind having a handgun along as well especially if/when bent over gutting game if the rifle would be out of reach.
There will be times, when you are not carrying your rifle, that you will want the security of a sidearm. Your PD should be just fine shooting whatever you are accustomed to shooting, w/o adding needless risk and the task of testing new ammo to your pre-departure list.
Have you fired your PD with such heavy loads? Follow up shots are a bear (ha,ha�get it�bear!!) with heavy loads in a Scandium frame gun.
If you�re going to use the PD, I�d recommend using a 285 grain WFN bullet, but don�t go for rip snortin velocity. The bullet will carry the day, and ranges are going to be close, so you don�t need more than about 1,000fps; ESPECIALLY in that revolver.
Google Alaskan 454 vs Grizzley. This guy was lucky, I would still have some bear spray on my person. It works.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
This comes up since I've been invited by an old friend to join him and a local hunter friend of his in Idaho (where they live currently) to do some elk hunting there, and he informs me that there are grizzly bear warnings for hunters up there recently, some having been attacked. He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting. Most powerful handgun I have is a .44 Magnum. Have three, in fact, but the lightest one is my S&W 329PD, which is what I'm thinking of packing. But I seem to recall reading an article about ten of fifteen years ago that suggested that there's never been a successful self-defense against a grizzly bear with a handgun, regardless of caliber or load, and that your best self-defense against one is whatever rifle you're hunting with. Thoughts?
PS I remember reading accounts of bear attacks, also, where the hunter attempted self-defense with his rifle, and had the rifle knocked from his hands, resulting in a long drawn out mauling because he had nothing else.
Shrapnel said what I would have and probably better. I've seen much more powerful chemical sprays fail on humans. I have NO faith in them for bears. Sure, if the bear is being a pest, fine. But not if he is determined. E
You are already worried about what to carry and being in shape, carry a rifle and call it good....No need to carry more weight and a rifle is a better bear defence...
Damn sure wouldn't bother me to carry my 44..in a bear ambush you could have a rifle swatted outta your hands in a heart beat. I'll carry the extra weight any day if it'll keep me from becoming bear dung in the woods!!
Have you fired your PD with such heavy loads? Follow up shots are a bear (ha,ha�get it�bear!!) with heavy loads in a Scandium frame gun.
If you�re going to use the PD, I�d recommend using a 285 grain WFN bullet, but don�t go for rip snortin velocity. The bullet will carry the day, and ranges are going to be close, so you don�t need more than about 1,000fps; ESPECIALLY in that revolver.
I've got the 500 Magnum X Frame grips on it, which really absorb a lot of recoil.
These are the rifles I'm bringing. One's a pre-64 Winchester 70 Featherweight and the other is an FN Belgian Browning (Mauser Action), "pencil barrel, High Power, Safari Grade. Both are in .308 Winchester, and both sport a Leupold VXII 3-9 variable with Weaver bases and rings. Both are about the same weight (quite light, both having aluminum bottom metal and other lightening features), and both have very nice, crisp, and light trigger pulls.
Just kidding. As long as you don't go to high you will probably be alright. Hopefully, you are riding horses.
When I hunted elk in the Colorado Rockies we were on horseback, but not on this one. But the Rockies hunt typically took place at between eight and nine thousand feet above sea level. I felt it, too. Every ten or fifteen steps I had to stop and catch my breath.
Save the last round for yourself if you get et by a griz. Unless you are extremely lucky you aren't going to do anything but piss him or her off with your peashooter.
Load the 329pd with something reasonable - forget those fantasy bullets and loads - they won't do anything other than lighten your wallet. A can of bear spray is pretty cheap too.
But I seem to recall reading an article about ten of fifteen years ago that suggested that there's never been a successful self-defense against a grizzly bear with a handgun, regardless of caliber or load, and that your best self-defense against one is whatever rifle you're hunting with. Thoughts?
That's horseschitt. There have been plenty of successful SD shoots against bears with handguns. Those that disagree or deny the fact either hates handguns or don't know what they are talking about.
Are they ideal? No, but they're better than a sharp stick and may be the only thing you have on you when you have your encounter. My concern isn't so much about having it to defend myself while hunting as it is when I'm zipped and buttoned up for the night i my sleeping bag. With the handgun, I can have it in the bag with me and be able to shoot through the bag if needed and I can't get unbuttoned fast enough to reach and manipulate a rifle.
Load it up with a good 300gr hardcast load of your own recipe, or an offering from someone like Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly Cartridge or Double Tap. Penetration is the word of the day here.
This comes up since I've been invited by an old friend to join him and a local hunter friend of his in Idaho (where they live currently) to do some elk hunting there, and he informs me that there are grizzly bear warnings for hunters up there recently, some having been attacked. He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting. Most powerful handgun I have is a .44 Magnum. Have three, in fact, but the lightest one is my S&W 329PD, which is what I'm thinking of packing. But I seem to recall reading an article about ten of fifteen years ago that suggested that there's never been a successful self-defense against a grizzly bear with a handgun, regardless of caliber or load, and that your best self-defense against one is whatever rifle you're hunting with. Thoughts?
PS I remember reading accounts of bear attacks, also, where the hunter attempted self-defense with his rifle, and had the rifle knocked from his hands, resulting in a long drawn out mauling because he had nothing else.
Yep, a properly loaded and applied handgun will get the job done
I recommend a 300 WFN flat point hard cast of 300 or so grains at 1200 or more FPS. If the M-329 isn't reliable with that load then I'd take the M-29 or M-629
As to pepper spray, leave the condiments for the dinner table
Well said, jwp. Seems to me the naysayers are the ones who don't hunt with handguns and perhaps are unaware just how terminally effective they can be (loaded correctly -- same caveat applies to rifles) on big game animals -- even those that bite.
I recommend a 300 WFN flat point hard cast of 300 or so grains at 1200 or more FPS. If the M-329 isn't reliable with that load then I'd take the M-29 or M-629
That occurred to me too, i.e., going with the more traditional pattern four inch M29 if there was any bullet pulling going on with the 329. I took it (the all steel M29) on a boar hunt about ten years ago as a backup to my Winchester 94 and don't recall noticing the weight. Of course that was in Vermont, not Idaho (altitude difference, even though this was high country for Vermont), and I didn't have a day pack on.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchir wanna be's.
By all means, one needs to rely on the type of firearm they are most able to effectively use.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchir wanna be's.
By all means, one needs to rely on the type of firearm they are most able to effectively use.
Well, I cut my teeth on S&W K-Frame double action revolvers way back in the 1980s. They're like second nature to me by now, so switching to an N-Frame shouldn't be such a big deal for me.
In use against dangerous game in Africa, shotguns have been a disaster and have resulted in many mauled PH�s and clients. With the right slug, it becomes viable, but buckshot is soft and has piss poor sectional density resulting in very little penetration against something with big bones and very dense muscle. No, a good large bore bullet at a moderate velocity, whether it comes from a rifle or a handgun is the ticket. JWP has proven (as well as many others like him) that a powerful revolver will end the conflict just as well as a rifle. JWP used a .475 on the bears in his photo and the killing power of such revolvers is simply amazing; surpassing a lot of magnum rifles.
I wonder why South African game wardens favor a 9.3x62 mauser or better yet, an FN FAL to deal with renegade Cape Buffs, which are probably a lot harder to stop than most bears.
If I make it back to "big bear" country, I will ALWAYS be carrying a serious pistol (probably the magnaported 4in 629 I currently own), but it won't be plan A.
Yeah, you CAN kill a bear/griz (which could weigh 200# or 1200#) with a handgun. You CAN jump off of cliffs with a tiny parachute sans reserve, but I wouldn't reccommend that as a hobby either.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
i concour.
and i'll add this: the last two grizzly maulings that i'm aware of here in Montana happened BECAUSE someone shot the bear. the first one went something like this: guy shot bear, guy and his pard waited a while and then tracked bear into brush. wounded bear attacked and killed the pard.
second one went like this. guy shot bear. wounded bear attacked guys pard. guy fatally shot his pard in the chest while trying to kill bear.
in a similar incident near Cooke City two years ago, a guy shot his pard (not fatally) trying to repel a bear that was chewing on him.
and an incident JB posted here a while back. i don't know if this was griz or black bear, though. bear wandered too close. guy shot bear with his pistol. bear got pi$$ed and started chewing on the guy. the guys pard showed up and repelled the bear with bear spray.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
Bear protection ain't a quick draw shoot out affair IMHO&E. The handgun is more likely to be with you when you need a gun most. IF a bear gets on you when you are in a tent and in your sleeping bag, good luck trying to get a rifle into action. The handgun is easily kept on ones person while doing camp chores, etc. The handgun is very handy and if always carried will be ther with you when needed, that is the beauty of the handgun
That bear spray ain't going to do one much good whne in the tent and in the sleeping bag, good luck useing it with out getting a face full yourself. Try spraying it into the wind and let me know how well that works. Bear spray ain't going to deter a determined charge. I'll leave the pepper for my meal
That's what a friend of mine said, "Nothing beats a 12 gauge as a bear stopper."
Well, probably a good idea to have one in camp, as at close range it's easier to deploy a shotgun in self-defense than a scoped rifle, but other than camp what are you going to do? Carry a shotgun over one shoulder and your scoped rifle over the other? I guess that's what Wild Alaska had in mind, but it seems screwy to me.
I would carry my .44 Mag. Mountain Gun. The 329 PD sounds good to me. IIRC you have the hole already plugged.
Ruger used to use the testimony of some guy who killed one with a 44-40 Vaquero, as an advertisement. I don't recall whether it was a Black Bear or a Griz.
Carry your heaviest .44 in a chest holster. Carry the rifle in your hand. Carry a can of bear spray on your belt.
The bear might get you anyway, but at least you won't be fretting that you didn't take every precaution after weeks of obsessing over every possible bear-attack scenario.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
Bear protection ain't a quick draw shoot out affair IMHO&E. The handgun is more likely to be with you when you need a gun most. IF a bear gets on you when you are in a tent and in your sleeping bag, good luck trying to get a rifle into action. The handgun is easily kept on ones person while doing camp chores, etc. The handgun is very handy and if always carried will be ther with you when needed, that is the beauty of the handgun
That bear spray ain't going to do one much good whne in the tent and in the sleeping bag, good luck useing it with out getting a face full yourself. Try spraying it into the wind and let me know how well that works. Bear spray ain't going to deter a determined charge. I'll leave the pepper for my meal
JWP's comments pretty much sums up why you oughta have a handgun in bear country, as plan B.
As for a shotgun, I just weighed my 7-shot 18.5in 870. Eight pounds seven ounces. My 45/70 trapper weighs 6# 13oz. I don't have to think twice about which one to take.
Carry your heaviest .44 in a chest holster. Carry the rifle in your hand. Carry a can of bear spray on your belt.
The bear might get you anyway, but at least you won't be fretting that you didn't take every precaution after weeks of obsessing over every possible bear-attack scenario.
Who do you think you're fooling with that BS? What I've posted is available for anyone to read. No one needs your characterizations of it.
JWP's comments pretty much sums up why you oughta have a handgun in bear country, as plan B.
And why would that be? Have you shot any large game with a handgun? Not trying to be combative, just like to know where your perspective is coming from. You may be surprised by the terminal effects of a properly loaded big-bore revolver. True that not everyone can shoot them well, but not everyone can shoot a rifle, let alone a heavy kicker well either.
JWP's comments pretty much sums up why you oughta have a handgun in bear country, as plan B.
As for a shotgun, I just weighed my 7-shot 18.5in 870. Eight pounds seven ounces. My 45/70 trapper weighs 6# 13oz. I don't have to think twice about which one to take.
so, you'd hunt elk with your trapper, or carry two rifles?
JWP's comments pretty much sums up why you oughta have a handgun in bear country, as plan B.
As for a shotgun, I just weighed my 7-shot 18.5in 870. Eight pounds seven ounces. My 45/70 trapper weighs 6# 13oz. I don't have to think twice about which one to take.
so, you'd hunt elk with your trapper, or carry two rifles?
I'd have zero problem standing my ground against any interior griz armed with my Steyr Scout (308) with any 180gr mono bullet. Coastal AK? I'd pick a larger (338) rifle. Hiking or fishing in Brownieland? I'd have the little trapper stuffed with some potent hardcasts and slung african.
JWP's comments pretty much sums up why you oughta have a handgun in bear country, as plan B.
And why would that be? Have you shot any large game with a handgun? Not trying to be combative, just like to know where your perspective is coming from. You may be surprised by the terminal effects of a properly loaded big-bore revolver. True that not everyone can shoot them well, but not everyone can shoot a rifle, let alone a heavy kicker well either.
I'm a retired SF medic, former PSD contractor, and TCCC instructor. I might just have an inkling or two about terminal ballistics. I'm NOT a handgun hunter. I am Rogers Range qualified/certified with a handgun and I know I can hit [bleep] a lot better with a carbine than a single-action pistol. A man has gotta know his limitations, I have a pretty good handle on mine.
A 0.475 440grain slug is hardly a "little pistol". That is creeping up on 45/70 ballistics, which I agree is entirely adequate as a stopping round anywhere in the western hemisphere.
A 0.475 440grain slug is hardly a "little pistol". That is creeping up on 45/70 ballistics, which I agree is entirely adequate as a stopping round anywhere in the western hemisphere.
That's a 440 grain .50 caliber bullet at a scorching 950 fps at the muzzle. It's a pussycat to shoot.
I don't socialize with grizzly bears very often and have only been close to a few while fishing in Alaska. Some of the guides were armed, and some were not. I had a sow and cub come close to us while we were having a shore lunch several weeks ago a little south of Port Heiden. She eventually wandered off into the bushes. I did have a friend mauled in Denali back in the 1970's when he got between a sow and cubs when hiking. He lived through the experience.
Contact with dangerous animals can occur when least expected. I have black bears, venomous snakes, feral dogs, and other nasties on my farm that may need some persuasion to get them to leave me alone. I always have some type of handgun with me. I presently am carrying a .44 Mag SS Vaquero but have carried a 629, a 329, and a .45 Colt old Vaquero.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
It sort of reminds me of the old story about the LEO who wore his sidearm to his daughter's school for a PTA meeting. One parent saw his handgun and asked him if he was expecting trouble. He answered that if he was expecting trouble he would also be carrying his shotgun.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
Exactly.......
Makes perfect sense. Can't understand folks who disagree with that straightforward reasoning.
Don't know if semi's are allowed but a good 1911 45 acp hard ball comes to mine for bear medicine. I saw a show on TV with a hunter or guide carrying one but don't remember where they were.
Don't know if semi's are allowed but a good 1911 45 acp hard ball comes to mine for bear medicine. I saw a show on TV with a hunter or guide carrying one but don't remember where they were.
Tacksmacker
Not enough horse power for grizz IMO. In a revolver, loaded hot with 255 grain hard cast lead semi-wadcutters, maybe .45 ACP would be on the low end of adequate ... maybe, but not hardball out of an auto.
In fact, just this year there was a guy who, when walking through the woods with his girlfriend, had to shoot a bear (I believe it was a grizzly) to protect his girlfriend who was being attacked. He emptied his .45 ACP 1911 into it and drove it off, but certainly didn't "stop" it.
Don't know if semi's are allowed but a good 1911 45 acp hard ball comes to mine for bear medicine. I saw a show on TV with a hunter or guide carrying one but don't remember where they were.
Tacksmacker
Conventional round nose hard ball is out. I've hunted with a 1911 and hard ball doesn't work.
If I was going to use a 1911 for self defense work in bear country I would seriously consider one of these loads from Buffalo Bore.
Notice I say self defense against bears NOT hunting bears. Under no circumstance would I HUNT bears with a 1911. Self defense is up close and personal, hunting is not.
I have been casting these from a 7% tin, 93% lead mixture. The run around 235 gr. Feed and shoot well in my softer-than-chocolate-on-a-hot-day RIA. It is what I would use but then it is all I have.
OOPS It helps if I would remember to post the picture!
What part of Idaho, TRH, and when? When it comes to griz and carrying a heavy handgun in the hills, it makes a difference.
F'rinstance - I'd be much more inclined to pack the 4" steel 29 in the panhandle than in the south-central part of the state, since a griz encounter is much more likely up there and the altitude may be much lower. I never pack anything more potent than a heavy-loaded 4' 357 in the SW part of the state and never worry about being under-gunned (no griz here, AFAIK).
As for the snide "ranch in Idaho" comments of another poster....some of our ranches have lost cattle to griz and wolves.
Speaking of that - elk hunting in Idaho is a very different activity since the wolves have taken over. Expect a hard hunt.
It's the hardball ammo that gives me cause for pause.
Forgive my naivety but...why? If the hardball is a pretty salty load, it should penetrate better than most of the cast stuff, being FMJ in the first place. You have a wide frontal surface and are not counting on expansion. I would not want to hunt Grizzly with a 45 auto, but I would think it would be far from the worst choice for defense.
It's the hardball ammo that gives me cause for pause.
Forgive my naivety but...why? If the hardball is a pretty salty load, it should penetrate better than most of the cast stuff, being FMJ in the first place. You have a wide frontal surface and are not counting on expansion. I would not want to hunt Grizzly with a 45 auto, but I would think it would be far from the worst choice for defense.
The round-nose profile makes it tend to glance off anything hard - like a shoulder bone. I've seen .45 hardball fail to get the job done as a "finishing" round on deer more than once. Never seen it actually work well for killing game animals - which typically do not react to gunshot wounds the same as humans.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
That is utter and complete hogwash. Who were the guys that tested all those handgunners? I certainly wasn't invited to the trial. Where is the data on all those handgunners that tried and failed at the real thing?
It's the hardball ammo that gives me cause for pause.
Forgive my naivety but...why? If the hardball is a pretty salty load, it should penetrate better than most of the cast stuff, being FMJ in the first place. You have a wide frontal surface and are not counting on expansion. I would not want to hunt Grizzly with a 45 auto, but I would think it would be far from the worst choice for defense.
They actually don't necessarily penetrate all that well, are prone to veering off course (as are all round nosed non-expanding bullets), and as was pointed out, they can glance off of hard surfaces. If the cast bullet has a wide meplat, the hardball will not out penetrate it, nor will it create as large a wound channel. There are definitely worse ways to go, but hardball ammo is far from optimal.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
That is utter and complete hogwash. Who were the guys that tested all those handgunners? I certainly wasn't invited to the trial. Where is the data on all those handgunners that tried and failed at the real thing?
What part of Idaho, TRH, and when? When it comes to griz and carrying a heavy handgun in the hills, it makes a difference.
F'rinstance - I'd be much more inclined to pack the 4" steel 29 in the panhandle than in the south-central part of the state, since a griz encounter is much more likely up there and the altitude may be much lower. I never pack anything more potent than a heavy-loaded 4' 357 in the SW part of the state and never worry about being under-gunned (no griz here, AFAIK).
As for the snide "ranch in Idaho" comments of another poster....some of our ranches have lost cattle to griz and wolves.
Speaking of that - elk hunting in Idaho is a very different activity since the wolves have taken over. Expect a hard hunt.
No ranch. Public land. Unit 4. In the panhandle. Unit 4
You have to forgive Sean for being nasty. I think it's just his nature.
I've narrowed it down to the Belgian Browning Safari Grade High Power. It's actually the lighter of the two, at 7 pounds, 12 ounces scoped. The Winchester Featherweight is 8 pounds, .5 ounces scoped. That's a 4.5 ounce difference. It also feels better balanced in the hands than the Featherweight.
As soon at the CastCore .44 Magnum ammo arrives, I'll decide which of my S&W N-Frames to bring along.
They actually don't necessarily penetrate all that well, are prone to veering off course (as are all round nosed non-expanding bullets), and as was pointed out, they can glance off of hard surfaces. If the cast bullet has a wide meplat, the hardball will not out penetrate it, nor will it create as large a wound channel. There are definitely worse ways to go, but hardball ammo is far from optimal.
I treated a patient who was shot at near contact distance (powder burns on his face) with a .45 hardball and it failed to crack the guy's skull. I walked in to find a guy who looked like crap, wailing in pain, but consious and alert with an entrance wound above the right eye, and an exit wound behind the right ear, and an officer on scene unloading a 1911 with a magazine full of hardballs. I just couldn't believe my eyes and I told the guy we were going to buy him a lotery ticket on the way to the hospital. In the ER the X-Ray showed coning on the inside of the skull; one of the coolest things I have ever seen (cool, because it wasn't me).
To all the "eggspurts" here....a lot of difference in purposely hunting a griz with a handgun vs. protecting yourself in an attack...........apples and oranges so to speak.
IIRC a little old Indian woman in Canada killed a griz with a 22 Long....not Long Rifle either. It can be done but I wouldn't want to try it. It was all she had.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
Exactly.......
Makes perfect sense. Can't understand folks who disagree with that straightforward reasoning.
LOL... my entire elk/sheep/wolf hunting area is griz infested, and i bet i could count on one hand the number of locals i've seen packing a handgun AND rifle while hunting in the last 30 years.
It's the hardball ammo that gives me cause for pause.
Forgive my naivety but...why? If the hardball is a pretty salty load, it should penetrate better than most of the cast stuff, being FMJ in the first place. You have a wide frontal surface and are not counting on expansion. I would not want to hunt Grizzly with a 45 auto, but I would think it would be far from the worst choice for defense.
The hard ball will glance or ricochet of of anything hard. The hard ball was designed to feed in the 1911 and meet Geneva Rules of Engagement which means wounding instead of killing a human.
I used hard ball for target shooting but do not use them any more for hunting. BTW: In looking at steel plates for shooting hard ball is not recommended due to ricocheting. Once I get to reloading if I want to shoot plates I may have to load lead for safety.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
Exactly.......
Makes perfect sense. Can't understand folks who disagree with that straightforward reasoning.
LOL... my entire elk/sheep/wolf hunting area is griz infested, and i bet i could count on one hand the number of locals i've seen packing a handgun AND rifle while hunting in the last 30 years.
Toad, I have never carried both the several times I have hunted or fished in Grizzly country because I was never alone and was never the only person armed. I always carry on my place because there are quite a few nasties around here and because I am usually alone.
A recent fishing guide carried a LARS 1911 in .45 Win Mag. The other guides in camp carried .460, .454, and .500 Limbaugh revolvers.
I doubt I would carry the extra weight of a large revolver if I were doing serious climbing. A few extra pounds would make a big difference to an old fat man in the mountains but are not much of a problem here in the flat swamps of NC.
carrying a handgun without the rifle is a different situation. i see lotsa people that are not hunting so without rifle but with handgun or handgun/bear spray. the rifle/handgun combo is rare to see here. the most common exception is outfitters on horseback with their rifles in the saddle scabbard. (horse could likely dump the rider when spooked by whatever and run off with the rifle)
but when you are on foot and carrying rifle/pack/binos, the handgun becomes much more of a burden than the weight suggests it should be.
for instance, how do you carry it? waist belt will be in the way of your pack belt. if you put it on your pack belt, it will come off of you with the pack. shoulder holster? i've not seen one that works with pack.
I'm not going to bother reading through the 9+ pages of posts on this topic which has to be one of THE most popular topics on any hunting/outdoors forum, i.e. self defense against the griz, blah, blah, blah ad nauseum....
But, I can't help but wonder that any poster (i.e. the OP) who has in excess of 39,000 posts must surely have developed a great deal of this information for himself ALREADY way prior to having to START another such topic all over AGAIN!
I have a Lawrence shoulder holster and it works ok with a pack, though I don't use the pack chest straps when using it. I rarely carry a rifle anymore...might if I lived in MT, 'cause every time I get close to those darned g bears I wish I had a bigger gun. dvnv
but when you are on foot and carrying rifle/pack/binos, the handgun becomes much more of a burden than the weight suggests it should be.
for instance, how do you carry it? waist belt will be in the way of your pack belt. if you put it on your pack belt, it will come off of you with the pack. shoulder holster? i've not seen one that works with pack.
I'm not going to bother reading through the 9+ pages of posts on this topic which has to be one of THE most popular topics on any hunting/outdoors forum, i.e. self defense against the griz, blah, blah, blah ad nauseum....
But, I can't help but wonder that any poster (i.e. the OP) who has in excess of 39,000 posts must surely have developed a great deal of this information for himself ALREADY way prior to having to START another such topic all over AGAIN!
I'll never understand, if a topic doesn't appeal to a poster, why that poster feels compelled to not only open it up but then to comment that he thinks the topic is a waste of time. Don't see the logic. Ninety-nine plus percent of the topics I come across here don't interest me enough to open, let alone comment in that thread that it holds no interest for me.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
Exactly.......
Hard to have a rifle ready when you are in a place like this quartering a bull. There are Grizzly tracks in the snow just out of the frame. He ate the gut pile in the night and was around somewhere. My head was on a swivel. 329 PD in a MS 200 AW
The Ringler Wyoming Combination is a great way to carry when you are also carrying a pack. No need to remove when you take off the pack.
Funny how we are all victims of our experience but I thought it was pretty standard to carry a decently powerful pistol or revolver everywhere. Heck I have a pistol on in the supermarket; no way will I leave it home when on the mountain.
I use a drop leg so I can buckle my ruck's waist belt. Easy to get to with the added benefit of offending the green and PETA types met on the trails these days
I always carry a handgun while hunting, regardless of what I'm hunting. The Glock 20-10mm with 16 rounds in it, goes for the ride as I like the speed of a semi auto. Always in a hip holster.
The reason I always carry a handgun in the woods, even when hunting with a rifle, is that the handgun is always with me. I put my rifle down to field dress or load up a deer, but my handgun is always on my hip. It may not be the idea weapon for protection but it is always available.
Exactly.......
Hard to have a rifle ready when you are in a place like this quartering a bull. There are Grizzly tracks in the snow just out of the frame. He ate the gut pile in the night and was around somewhere. My head was on a swivel. 329 PD in a MS 200 AW
The Ringler Wyoming Combination is a great way to carry when you are also carrying a pack. No need to remove when you take off the pack.
Funny how we are all victims of our experience but I thought it was pretty standard to carry a decently powerful pistol or revolver everywhere. Heck I have a pistol on in the supermarket; no way will I leave it home when on the mountain.
SPot on. Could not agree more, perfect example with pictures
"Life Insurance" That is what I tell my CC students. If you had a One Million Dollar Life Insurance Policy but it was only in force at the time of death if a copy of the policy was on you, would you ever leave home without it knowing that your family would loose the house and your kids would never go to school...
A handgun carried for PP against two-legged or four-legged Kritters is a Life Insurance Policy that will do you no good if left at home regardless of the excuse...
There is a fine line between Preparedness and Paranoia. Paranoia is preparing for something that has never happened and probably never will. Preparing for events in the future that have happened in the past and will likely happen again in the future is just being prudent. To not do so is somewhere between foolish and negligent.
The "locals" who never carry a handgun in Griz territory because they have a rifle...maybe they are the same ones who don't have life insurance for their families either.... And yes one can go overboard preparing, but better "overboard" than "underground"....
The "locals" who never carry a handgun in Griz territory because they have a rifle...maybe they are the same ones who don't have life insurance for their families either.... And yes one can go overboard preparing, but better "overboard" than "underground".... Bob
Or the ones who see a griz 9 times out of 10 while hunting and over the years have become complacent because nothing happened the ast ten times they saw one so nothing ever will.
And to answer the original question, YES it is possible to defend yourself from a griz with a handgun, just like it's possible to fly a helicopter or to drive 250mph round a race track or ride a bucking bull, it's been proven that all those are possible BUT just because it's possible doesn't mean you can do it. Out of everyone here only you know your skill levels but remember just because you can stand on the range and put 10 shots in the ten ring doesn't mean you'll be able to hit that bears melon coming at you at 35mph from 15 yards at 10,000 feet altitude after walking five miles and while the adrenaline is pumping.
just because you can stand on the range and put 10 shots in the ten ring doesn't mean you'll be able to hit that bears melon coming at you at 35mph from 15 yards at 10,000 feet altitude after walking five miles and while the adrenaline is pumping.
Well said, RJM.
Maarty, couldn't the same be said for the person with a scoped rifle in their hands?
just because you can stand on the range and put 10 shots in the ten ring doesn't mean you'll be able to hit that bears melon coming at you at 35mph from 15 yards at 10,000 feet altitude after walking five miles and while the adrenaline is pumping.
Well said, RJM.
Maarty, couldn't the same be said for the person with a scoped rifle in their hands?
Yep, and for many other things in life. My point is that the OP needs to be aware of his own limitations, he's the only one who can honestly judge his abilities (the key word being honestly) I'm not suggesting he doesn't take a pistol on this hunt, I'm more inclined after reading his other comments related to this hunt to suggest he doesn't go at all, at least not this year. I personally think he needs to prepare more for the trip than he has been able to do. I'm reasonably fit and active, have been hunting solo for about 27 years and know I can hold up my end when it comes to hunting and traveling in the back country and I'm not sure I'd accept the invite he's been given considering the lack of planning and preparation time. The OP has admitted he has very limited hunting experience, very little time off the beaten track, is not in very good physical shape and is planning to fly into a high elevation area one day before the hunt. My opinion is that he'd be better off to stay home and go next year after doing some serious preparation, including fitness training.
just because you can stand on the range and put 10 shots in the ten ring doesn't mean you'll be able to hit that bears melon coming at you at 35mph from 15 yards at 10,000 feet altitude after walking five miles and while the adrenaline is pumping.
Well said, RJM.
Maarty, couldn't the same be said for the person with a scoped rifle in their hands?
Yep, and for many other things in life. My point is that the OP needs to be aware of his own limitations, he's the only one who can honestly judge his abilities
My question didn't involve personal ability differences, but simply asked about the physical capabilities of a handgun cartridge vs a close range charging grizzly. The ground you covered falls into the category of "needless to say."
Take the pistol if you are up to going in the 1st place & up to carrying the extra weight of pistol in the 2nd place.
It's strictly a backup/emergency piece as you have a rifle as your primary.
Grizzlies have also moved into our hunting area in SW Montana, as have LOTS of wolves & a fair amount of lions & black bears.........we hunt in pairs for the most part which is probably your best defense, but be very alert & careful if alone.
My BIL was charged by a big black last year while bow hunting.......fortunately it broke off & no damage was done.
I even have some concern for tying up & leaving horses alone.
Out of everyone here only you know your skill levels but remember just because you can stand on the range and put 10 shots in the ten ring doesn't mean you'll be able to hit that bears melon coming at you at 35mph from 15 yards at 10,000 feet altitude after walking five miles and while the adrenaline is pumping.
Boy, I can agree with that one. I was hunting with my 1911, took a shot head on on a standing Muley at around 20 yards maybe a little less and missed. How many times have I shoot off hand at a standing 25 yard target and hit the target and I missed the Muley? I still can't believe it today. A charging bear is another whole kettle of fish.
What part of Idaho, TRH, and when? When it comes to griz and carrying a heavy handgun in the hills, it makes a difference.
F'rinstance - I'd be much more inclined to pack the 4" steel 29 in the panhandle than in the south-central part of the state, since a griz encounter is much more likely up there and the altitude may be much lower. I never pack anything more potent than a heavy-loaded 4' 357 in the SW part of the state and never worry about being under-gunned (no griz here, AFAIK).
As for the snide "ranch in Idaho" comments of another poster....some of our ranches have lost cattle to griz and wolves.
Speaking of that - elk hunting in Idaho is a very different activity since the wolves have taken over. Expect a hard hunt.
No ranch. Public land. Unit 4. In the panhandle. Unit 4
You have to forgive Sean for being nasty. I think it's just his nature.
For everyone's edification - we're not talking about packing extra weight at alpine elevations here. I've hunted and taken elk around 8000', but this panhandle area tops out around 5000', I think, and is mostly in the 3000'-4000' range. Recognizing that TRH lives closer to sea level, it may be an issue. But I generally don't see any problem with altitude and hypoxia until crossing a gain of about 4000', and then it is mild until after about another couple thousand - and that from a starting point of 2500'. The shape your heart and lungs are in does make a difference, of course.
Given that - and the proximity of the noted area to known griz populations, and the fact that the area has some pretty dense vegetation that would hide an approaching predator until it was very close; I would opt for carrying the handgun - and I would want one in which I am capable of running with some pretty heavy loads.
TRH - bring some aspirin (assuming it's okay for you). Start taking one a day as soon as you get into higher elevation than you are acclimated to. We do this all the time to avoid the hypoxia headache (it works). For more extreme elevations, a day of rest also helps the body acclimate.
That's what a friend of mine said, "Nothing beats a 12 gauge as a bear stopper."
Thats correct. the 12g is the standard for ADFG, the Troopers, APD and rural PDs alnong with most of the alphabet agencies and contractors who do lots of work outside.
Some agencies issue .375 H&Hs.
One of my friends trains workers for bear encounters. Much of that training is with shotguns, although he himself uses one of our custom lever rifles.
It has been pretty much proven that about 90% of the guys who want to carry a handgun for bear protection do not have the expertise to draw and fire accurately enough to stop a bear during a charge,nor do they seldom have the time to do so.. The other 10% do and those are the ones we hear about. All test done by most credible wildlife biologist show that good bear spray is more effective.I'd belive them more so than internet armchair wanna be's.
You carry that bear spray in a holster? Do ya practice 'drawin' that can and accurately sending a stream where you want it? Curious here...
My luck, a Griz would find that stuff merely BBQ sauce on the main meal.. Pass.. Like those with the most experience have said - distance is likely to be a very few yards, or even a very few feet. A bear's a sizable target - and if close enough anyone with even a modicum of practice with a handgun should be able to put one in the head or face region.. Believe me, if I was goin' up there, I'd be practicing - a LOT..
And on the hunt I'd have my Ruger Alaskan .45C/.454C on my hip.. I'll take the weight when considering a possible alternative..
That's what a friend of mine said, "Nothing beats a 12 gauge as a bear stopper."
Thats correct. the 12g is the standard for ADFG, the Troopers, APD and rural PDs alnong with most of the alphabet agencies and contractors who do lots of work outside.
Some agencies issue .375 H&Hs.
One of my friends trains workers for bear encounters. Much of that training is with shotguns, although he himself uses one of our custom lever rifles.
WilditsmyopinionAlaska ��2002-2011
An aquaintance is a USFW employee in SE AK and has been for decades. They used to issue Win Model 70's (pre 64 of course) chambered in 338 Win Mag. They took them all away and issued shotguns 'cause the female employees bitched about the recoil. All those pre-64's got chunked into Captain Crunch also.
carrying a handgun without the rifle is a different situation. i see lotsa people that are not hunting so without rifle but with handgun or handgun/bear spray. the rifle/handgun combo is rare to see here. the most common exception is outfitters on horseback with their rifles in the saddle scabbard. (horse could likely dump the rider when spooked by whatever and run off with the rifle)
but when you are on foot and carrying rifle/pack/binos, the handgun becomes much more of a burden than the weight suggests it should be.
for instance, how do you carry it? waist belt will be in the way of your pack belt. if you put it on your pack belt, it will come off of you with the pack. shoulder holster? i've not seen one that works with pack.
I don't use a large pack where I hunt and frequently use no pack at all. My usual method is in a Simply Rugged holster worn cross draw on a dedicated belt. I can walk, sit, and ride (tractors, trucks, 4x4) without any problems.
My situation seems to be quite different from many who go frequently into Grizzly country and I would probably see things a little differently if I lived and hunted where they are found. My system gives me comfort when wandering around in my neck of the woods in which bears are black.
A good handgun will work as good as the operator can handle it, you have to do 2 things. Have the gun with you at all times & use a gun & load that you can shoot well.....& fast. Heavy loads it a light gun creates a lot of recoil, remember, you won't get many shots if things get "hairy". Most likely you will be shooting at the head so you'll need tough bullets. Keep whatever gun you choose handy & when you see a bear make sure you always pull the gun immediately, even if its 100 yds away. Get ready because they are extemely fast & you might not get a real good look at it. You could hunt Idaho 100 times & never have a problem but somebody has problems every year! I repeat, the gun must be with you at all times, rifle or handgun.
Speaking of "going there," are you in the process of moving?
Can't yet.. Too many little items to get handled first - besides, I wanna be out there when they're building the shop and that's just impossible in the fall seasons..
A good handgun will work as good as the operator can handle it, you have to do 2 things. Have the gun with you at all times & use a gun & load that you can shoot well.....& fast. Heavy loads it a light gun creates a lot of recoil, remember, you won't get many shots if things get "hairy". Most likely you will be shooting at the head so you'll need tough bullets. Keep whatever gun you choose handy & when you see a bear make sure you always pull the gun immediately, even if its 100 yds away. Get ready because they are extemely fast & you might not get a real good look at it. You could hunt Idaho 100 times & never have a problem but somebody has problems every year! I repeat, the gun must be with you at all times, rifle or handgun.
Not attempting to minimize a grizzly bear encounter, but we are not talking coastal brown bears in northern idaho.
"In the lower 48 States, the average weight of grizzly bears is generally 400 to 600 pounds for males and 250 to 350 pounds for females".
In Montana, two bears, estimated to be in the 800 lb range have been killed in the last several years (one by a truck, and the other shot illegally). Five or six years ago, a 450 pounder was mistakenly killed during archery season in the area we bow hunt elk in SW Montana.
FWIW, both my son and I carry S&W 329 .44 Mags while bow hunting elk in SW Montana. We never hunt alone, and are on high alert when calling and when field dressing a kill. When it comes to predator encounters, bow hunting elk is a somewhat higher risk activity than most other outdoor activities. I've never had an encounter, but personally know of others (including my son) who have been up close and personal with mountain lions, wolves and bears while bow hunting.
I've told this story before but its worth repeating when these "Bear Encounter" posts pop up every week or so. Several years ago my son's best friend was bowhunting north of Soda Springs & watched intently as a sow black bear & 2 cubs passed him as very close range. He was wearing camo & hunkered down next to a small quakie. As the bears passed the sow spotted Jason & was on him in a flash, he didn't even have time to stand. She continued to bite & claw him as he screamed for help. Most bear attacks end with the bear suddenly dashing off with their cubs, this sow was intent on killing him, he was bleeding very badly from the big artery in him thigh, she also bit him on the head, arms, hands & face. If he had been wearing a handgun he could have probably ended it with a lot less injuries. As he screamed his dad who was further up the ridge line came running down the mountain, Nolan was also only carrying a bow. As he came in sight of the attack the bear whirled & started for Nolan. As she closed the gap he released his arrow & made the shot of a lifetime, the arrow struck her above the head, severing the spine & killed her instantly. Jason was life flighted off the mountain where he spent several days in the hospital. His father had saved his life & they appeared on several TV shows including one of the national networks from back east. He now has that bear mounted in his family room! Again, you have to have bear protection on your body to fight off an attack, if its leaning against a tree or in the tent or behind the grub box you are in for a mauling. The sow that attacked Jason was less than 200 lbs but he said she was unbeliveably strong, he had to chance. If its a handgun it has to carry tough slugs, whether jacketed or cast, no hollowpoints. If its a rifle it has to be handy, within reach at all times. If its a shotgun it is best served with slugs, not shot. A handgun thats used expressley for bear protection would be best served if it had a lanyard on the butt, most likely a bear will knock you over if it makes contact, if that happens you've probably just dropped your gun, a landyard will keep you in the fight.
For up close and personal with a bear and a handgun, either a Contender in 45-70 or a BFR in 45-70. (And cover your butt with your ballistic vest, so the bear don't shove the pistol where the sun won't bleach it.) Then use a 200 grain partition in your 308 and fill the bear full of them.
Again, you have to have bear protection on your body to fight off an attack, if its leaning against a tree or in the tent or behind the grub box you are in for a mauling. The sow that attacked Jason was less than 200 lbs but he said she was unbeliveably strong, he had to chance.
A handgun thats used expressley for bear protection would be best served if it had a lanyard on the butt, most likely a bear will knock you over if it makes contact, if that happens you've probably just dropped your gun, a landyard will keep you in the fight.
Dick
Excellent points. I've only skinned out a couple of bears, a N GA blackie about #200 a few years ago and an average (8ft) Hinchinbrook Island brownie. The latter was an impressive critter but even that "cuddly" little black bear, once you get the hide off, looks like the Incredible Hulk, and the Hulk didn't have claws and teeth like the bear.
You can get a lanyard stud to replace the bottom Hogue grip screw directly from Hoque (or at least you could in the past). You have to call them, it's not on their web store.
I messed with a lanyard for a while. For general everyday carry and bow hunting, I found it to be more trouble than it was worth. Of course, your mileage may vary.
a sow black bear ... less than 200 lbs but he said she was unbeliveably strong
I once had a long conversation with a retired forest service guy who'd spent years doing field surveys in Montana.
He told me that back in the high country the black bears worried him more than the grizzlies. I didn't really understand at the time, and don't know enough about Montana blackies to say that I do, now, but...
He told me they were more likely to cause trouble than the grizzlies he and his crews occasionally ran into. Not fatal trouble, necessarily. But the kind of trouble that can leave you crippled pretty good when they're done messing you up.
I think some of you are missing the point. It's not that a handgun is the weaponb[/i] of choice[i] to kill a grizzly. About any rifle would be better. But nothing in the grizzly-attacking-the-surprised-elk-hunter scenario will be a "choice" matter. If it's in your hand when your rifle is ten feet away leaning against a tree for whatever reason, it becomes your weapon of choice. Same thing if you are imitating a burrito in your tent, or you think of the scenario. The main point is to never be separated from it which can happen with a rifle, always be with somebody else, and hunt smart.
As to capability, I've seen a heavily loaded 45 Colt shatter the thoracic spine of a 900 lb buffalo heifer at 50 yds dropping her like an elevator. Much more depends on the ability and coolheadedness of the operator than the inability of a large, properly loaded handgun to break down a bear. And that is why there is, I think, the generally accepted dogma to push bear spray.
It is my perception that the proponents of bear spray are not so purely on the efficacy of it but also on considering the capabilities and inclinations of the average urban dweller in Mendles and Marmot wear.
I had to laugh about the "going to a ranch comment."
I guess guys from the east may not understand some of our ranches. The ranch I'm on goes right up to the wilderness line and we have lots of grizz way down below it. Some ranches are many, many sq miles.
We had several grizz killing and attacking cattle this year miles below the wilderness line.
Most of the country on this ranch is wilder than anything east of the Rockies I suspect.
I had to laugh about the "going to a ranch comment."
I guess guys from the east may not understand some of our ranches. The ranch I'm on goes right up to the wilderness line and we have lots of grizz way down below it. Some ranches are many, many sq miles.
We had several grizz killing and attacking cattle this year miles below the wilderness line.
Most of the country on this ranch is wilder than anything east of the Rockies I suspect.
DITTOS.
A 1,000 acre farm back East is a monster farm. Most working farms back East are around a 160 acres, up to about 300 acres.
Seriously guys, if an additional 3-lbs is bothersome, y'all need to get in better shape. It really isn't a pain to carry a handgun around and I really can't imagine it being problematic. Plus, if you bust the scope on your rifle beacause of a fall or whatever, you are not out of the game.
I've hiked and hunted in many mountainous places both here and abroad, and I hunt with handguns and I know that they are not as limited terminally as you perhaps may think. And yes, scopes do break. This wasn't an attack on you, just a reaction to those who constantly cite the additional weight as a deal-breaker.
You don't need to pack a handgun on a hunt when you have a rifle. For over 40 years I have hunted the Rockies and Cascades, never needed one and never will.
Quote
I know that they are not as limited terminally as you perhaps may think.
I never mentioned their terminal performance.
Curious, where did you hunt with a handgun abroad?
I rifle hunted abroad. I hunt almost exclusively with a handgun nowadays. I took a cow moose in Maine last month with a revolver -- I just find it more challenging.
I'm usually the guy carrying a handgun when no one else is. It wouldn't be worth it to me to carry mine while rifle hunting --- but there's nothing wrong with it --- some people like belts AND suspenders.
I'd surely take it with you on the trip though. Great for around camp -- by your bedside, going to the john @ night, etc ... Don't know if you'll use horses, but that's another place where rifles are useless and handguns can help a lot. Also, you might get an Elk and then go fishing -- lots of handgun opportunities.
In the Bob Marshall I carry a 5" 629 (also a .44 mag) with 285 grain HardCasts at 1235 fps.
He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting.
Dumb, dumb, dumb, if not plain stupid.
What are going to do if you see a grizzly bear, drop your rifle or sling it and shoot him with a handgun? Dumb.
And if gutting or quartering, just have your rifle ready to go nearby, its all you need.
No need to carry the extra weight of a handgun when you already have a rifle.
The only time I can see packing a handgun is when you take an early morning dump outside of camp.
Ewwww! bear stories! scawey!
You ought to tell that to a firend of mine who packed a hand gun and a rifle as well as a 12 gauge in camp. He'll tell you bear stories that will make your hair crawl. He was a guide, outfitter, and trapper for over 20 years in the Bob Marshal Wilderness.
The Condiment will only make you taste better. The Bear on the left of the picture came in on me while working a Moose kill, my rifle was leaning against a tree. The revolver was in my shoulder holster and was instantly available. Pepper spray in that situation is not an option
This comes up since I've been invited by an old friend to join him and a local hunter friend of his in Idaho (where they live currently) to do some elk hunting there, and he informs me that there are grizzly bear warnings for hunters up there recently, some having been attacked. He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting. Most powerful handgun I have is a .44 Magnum. Have three, in fact, but the lightest one is my S&W 329PD, which is what I'm thinking of packing. But I seem to recall reading an article about ten of fifteen years ago that suggested that there's never been a successful self-defense against a grizzly bear with a handgun, regardless of caliber or load, and that your best self-defense against one is whatever rifle you're hunting with. Thoughts?
PS I remember reading accounts of bear attacks, also, where the hunter attempted self-defense with his rifle, and had the rifle knocked from his hands, resulting in a long drawn out mauling because he had nothing else.
This is the opening post, don't believe that he asked about "pepper spray". He asked about the viability of a handgun for bear protection
Ok...for those of you who do carry a gun for bear defense...
What do you carry;
How do you carry it;
What load do you carry?
Opinion please....my load is a 230 grain Leadhead Keith at 975 fps... Federal CastCore 250s from the same gun clock 1080 (4" barrel). Is that enough or should the velocity be upped?
Bullet placement is what really matters. Place the bullet right and a .22lr will kill the baddest bear out there. Poor bullet placement and a .460 Nitro Express won't kill a bear.
when I have elk hunted in griz country (Idaho and MT), I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life.
and anybody who doesn't think a big handgun becomes a drag at the end of a day working through blowdowns at ten K feet hasn't done it or is way younger than I am.
You would be too scared to do anything should a bear come running....They are A LOT scarier than a guy in a truck...
In that case, why even bother to carry a rifle ... or bear spray??
Just lay down and play dead, until you are dead... just like the two girls in Glacier Park in 1967, when they were mauled and killed by two separate Grizzlies in separate incidents, on the same night. They did as advised by "experts" and "played dead" until they were dead.
One of the dead girl's boy friend also "played dead" and was only badly mauled. "Glacier Park, Night Of The Grizzlies," www.montanapbs.org.
I'll just continue to depend on my handgun or rifle, and being careful. Works for me.
I can see bear spray working in certain instances and not being a viable choice in other instances, but again that was not the question the opening post asked. Just because you weren't the first to get off topic, doesn't mean you weren't off topic
A firearm isn't viable for every one either, but for some one that can use it it is the best IMHO&E
...I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life...
Wrong thinking--a griz can run about 5 times faster than a man. I'd rather have the pistol.
to shoot yourself? because if I'm going to shoot the bastid I'm doing it with 4500 ft. lbs. of .338, not with a pop gun. and I'm not wasting my shooting time laying down a rifle and drawing a a pistol.
the "running for my life" was obviously a joke, I'd be climbing for my life, once that .338 went dry.
...I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life...
Wrong thinking--a griz can run about 5 times faster than a man. I'd rather have the pistol.
to shoot yourself? because if I'm going to shoot the bastid I'm doing it with 4500 ft. lbs. of .338, not with a pop gun. and I'm not wasting my shooting time laying down a rifle and drawing a a pistol.
the "running for my life" was obviously a joke, I'd be climbing for my life, once that .338 went dry.
The point is that you don't always have your rifle in hand, while a holstered sidearm is always within easy reach.
...I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life...
Wrong thinking--a griz can run about 5 times faster than a man. I'd rather have the pistol.
to shoot yourself? because if I'm going to shoot the bastid I'm doing it with 4500 ft. lbs. of .338, not with a pop gun. and I'm not wasting my shooting time laying down a rifle and drawing a a pistol.
the "running for my life" was obviously a joke, I'd be climbing for my life, once that .338 went dry.
FPE is not conserved in an inelastic collision as this diagram clearly illustrates
I would carry my .44 Mag. Mountain Gun. The 329 PD sounds good to me. IIRC you have the hole already plugged.
Ruger used to use the testimony of some guy who killed one with a 44-40 Vaquero, as an advertisement. I don't recall whether it was a Black Bear or a Griz.
It was against a black bear in Arizona. I believe both guys in the tent got mauled to some extent before the bear was shot.
when I have elk hunted in griz country (Idaho and MT), I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life.
and anybody who doesn't think a big handgun becomes a drag at the end of a day working through blowdowns at ten K feet hasn't done it or is way younger than I am.
That's the job of the guide to carry a handgun AND a rifle to protect the client so the client doesn't have to protect himself, all the client have to do is hunt.
...I always kind of figured if that .338 wasn't enough to stop a grizzly, a pistola would just slow me down running for my life...
Wrong thinking--a griz can run about 5 times faster than a man. I'd rather have the pistol.
to shoot yourself? because if I'm going to shoot the bastid I'm doing it with 4500 ft. lbs. of .338, not with a pop gun. and I'm not wasting my shooting time laying down a rifle and drawing a a pistol.
the "running for my life" was obviously a joke, I'd be climbing for my life, once that .338 went dry.
I see you have the Eastern mentality when it comes to Grizzlies. Hopefully, you will always have a competent guide with you to protect you. And I'm not being a smart azz.
That's the job of the guide to carry a handgun AND a rifle to protect the client so the client doesn't have to protect himself, all the client have to do is hunt.
where do you get this stuff? the guide has to keep his dudes intact, but nobody sez they have to have a handgun. and, yea, i've guided a few hunters...carried a Ruger tang safety in .338 WM. only. and get this, my outfitter carried a .257 Roberts and no sidearm. we never lost a dude and not one suggested we were under armed.
and i don't recall ever seeing a pic of Phil Shoemaker wearin a pistol...
I see you have the Eastern mentality when it comes to Grizzlies. Hopefully, you will always have a competent guide with you to protect you. And I'm not being a smart azz.
one of the silliest things I've ever seen was way up the Pole Creek drainage in Idaho, two hombres elk hunting with big ass magnum rifles and tied down super blackhawks.
tell me the scenario where you fight the bear with a handgun instead of your rifle.....you drain the four rounds in your magazine and don't even slow the bear down enough to reload? Then with the bear on you, you quick draw and whack him and the .44 mag does what you couldn't do with a big rifle. I mean, I guess it could happen, but it's pretty far fetched.
of course, everybody should do exactly what blows up your skirt.
BTW, there was no outfitter or guide around on that trip.
and it has been my experience that the flatlander sports are far more obsessed with bears than the local boys.
Apparently you don't hunt with horses. Riding a horse your rifle in in a scabbard on the horse or some even put their scabbards with rifle on the pack horse. If your horse bolts and you find your self on the ground with your horse heading down the trail with your rifle you'll be dang glad you have a handgun with you. If you get off your horse to take a whiz or whatever and your bolts for whatever reason and there goes your rifle you'll be glad you have a handgun on you.
When doing camp chores it's nice to have a handgun with you just in case. It's not likely you will have your rifle strung across your back.
When taking a crap it's nice to have a handgun with you just in case.
When gutting out an animal it's nice to have a handgun with you just in case. It's a long reach for that rifle leaning up against a tree.
When climbing that tree and your rifle is on the ground as it will be it's nice to know you can shoot a Grizzly as he tries knocking you out of the tree.
The way I look at it the old timers carried handguns and rifles for a reason.
But hey, you Easterners can do whatever you want, no skin off my nose if you become bear poop for lack of a handgun.
I take a handgun with me when I feed my sheep. I carry a handgun with me when I watter the greenhouse. I carry a handgun when I deliver produce. I carry a handgun when I go the the refrigerator (that is out the door and into the basement next door, no refrigerator in our house) I take a handgun with me to the grocery store.
Why in the flying hell would I leave it at home when hunting? Ant I just live in black bear and cougar country.
In current CQB training the transition from the carbine/rifle to the pistol is a skill that is practiced intensively. I would venture you will be unable to find any recognized authority on rifle fighting that would recommend leaving your pistol at home because you are carrying a rifle and don't want to carry the extra weight.
With the unbelievable loads carried by our troops the pistol still is worth the extra weight to those who actually get into real fights. Believing that your rifle could never fail or you will always have it in your hands might not be the best plan.
Might be kinda funny to tell the next real deal warrior you meet that he is stupid for carrying a pistol when he has a rifle.
The point being that those who have been exposed to a lot of real fighting like and carry pistols even while carrying rifles.
The silver lining is that most hunters in bear country will never need either a rifle or a pistol and will never have to pay a price for taking the easy way out.
I would venture a wager that those who would skip the pistol would have second thoughts if they absolutely knew they were going to have a mortal conflict with a bear on their next hunt.
I also would love to see someone effectively shoot a hunting rifle while carrying an elk quarter in a pack. Video anyone?
As to the idea that you will simply lean your rifle on a tree and it will be immediately available to you in the event you need to defend yourself is also fraught with problems.
When the bear charges do you really think you will be able to travel to your rifle, pick it up, cycle the action, and kill the bear before he has his way with you? Maybe you are going to leave it leaning against a tree loaded to save time? The bear might be the least of your worries if you make it a habit of leaving a loaded rifle leaning on trees.
Add a few mules and horses that are not real happy about having elk quarters loaded on them to the rifles leaning against trees and hope you like buying new rifles and scopes. Oh were the rifles leaning on trees loaded? Hope you like buying new mules and horses.
I have 2 personal friend who live in my town of 300 that were attacked by grizzlies and were unable to use the handgun they carried to stop the attack. Both times the handgun was carried under clothing and the bear caught them before they could draw.
Both guys are now none the worse for wear but one required a life flight due to a puncture wound very close to the femoral artery and the other has a spotting scope with some pretty cool grizzly bear teeth marks in it. Both guys still carry a handgun just in better holsters.
Learning to draw effectively (you are not born with this skill) is most likely more important than the handgun being drawn.
"So there I was, thrown from my horse, the rest of the packstring run off, and the giant grizzly roaring toward me"
"And I had [bleep] my pants so much that I was squishin' when I ran to the tree that my rifle was leaning up against...I plumb forgot about the hogleg on my hip"!
In current CQB training ..... I would venture you will be unable to find any recognized authority on rifle fighting that would recommend leaving your pistol at home because you are carrying a rifle and don't want to carry the extra weight....
...worth the extra weight to those who actually get into real fights.....
Might be kinda funny to tell the next real deal warrior you meet that he is stupid for carrying a pistol when he has a rifle. ...those who have been exposed to a lot of real fighting like and carry pistols even while carrying rifles.
jaysus....now we go from Outdoor Life to freaking Soldier of Fortune.
uh, these are bears, not Taliban, Spetznaz or Narcos.
Oh, and just BTW, in CQB speak, in terms of weight for lethality, one more mag for an M-16 is a far better weight investment than any handgun.
John, friend, I think you're out of you element here...really!
Quoted by John Burns...
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Couple of points to ponder.
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In current CQB training the transition from the carbine/rifle to the pistol is a skill that is practiced intensively.
Dude, were talking about elk hunting here, not battle.
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I would venture a wager that those who would skip the pistol would have second thoughts if they absolutely knew they were going to have a mortal conflict with a bear on their next hunt.
Now I'm really laughing!! LOL!!!
I don't want a handgun in a bear fight. I want a rifle! period! Just a rifle!. A hundgun will just get in the way.
Do you see guys packing handguns in Africa to back themselves up? (if it was legal?)
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I have 2 personal friend who live in my town of 300 that were attacked by grizzlies and were unable to use the handgun they carried to stop the attack. Both times the handgun was carried under clothing and the bear caught them before they could draw.
To bad they weren't carrying a rifle. And if they were not carrying a rifle at least they could of had the common sense to have the proper holster otherwise why were they carrying in the first place? Dumb!
You "Dudes" struck with paranoia who want to carry the extra weight while hunting with a rifle have at it. I'll be laughing at you. In the mean time, I'll stoke the 300 WSM with a 220 NP at 2,700 mv.
An elk hunt is not CQB with azzholes shooting at you.
Nobody ever said it was. The question was about self defense and whether or not to carry a handgun in that context.
Many here feel that carrying both is stupid or silly yet the overwhelming consensus of armed professionals is that a smart guy always carries a handgun if there is a possibility of conflict. He may also pack a rifle if the possibility gets greater but no respectable trainer advocates leaving the handgun home because it is too hard to carry.
If you think a bear attack is not going to be at close quarters or that it will not be a battle then you are mistaken. Guys who have been in lots of Close Quarters Battle pack handguns, every one of them.
Originally Posted by Steve_NO
Oh, and just BTW, in CQB speak, in terms of weight for lethality, one more mag for an M-16 is a far better weight investment than any handgun.
Yet contrary to your uninformed opinion the handgun is a universal tool carried and recommended by essentially every single real world shooter. Strange, I wonder why they didn�t get the memo.
Originally Posted by SU35
Do you see guys packing handguns in Africa to back themselves up? (if it was legal?)
Yes I have seen it and know of it happening.
Ted Nugent killed a previously wounded cape buffalo with a 10MM Glock on video.
My friend and mentor Ross Seyfried killed a cape buffalo in full charge with his old original Linebaugh 45 Colt. That revolver killed an absolute truck load of previously rifle wounded game while Ross was a PH in Africa. It was always on his hip and he could shoot it with precision.
These days it would be almost impossible to legally carry a handgun but I thought it was pretty common knowledge that in the past these types of things were done.
Larry Kelly and JD Jones have also written extensively about dealing with dangerous critters with handguns. I don�t personally know either.
Look I understand some guys are looking for an excuse to lighten the load but at least be honest and admit you are placing your comfort ahead of security and not that those who are prudent are somehow stupid, silly, or paranoid.
Originally Posted by SU35
John, friend, I think you're out of you element here...really!
the task of the special operations soldier setting out to deliberately find, engage, and kill armed enemy soldiers, intelligent armed humans, and that of the elk hunter who may possibly, but very unlikely, have an encounter with a hostile bear, are so different that it is kind of ridiculous to try to incorporate the tools and tactics of the one into the other.
Just sayin'
BTW, nice bear....what's the snipery looking smokepole?
I am eminently qualified to comment on this thread. I once pointed a rifle at a bear. I lowered the rifle when I realized he was as tall as my knee
I think I'd vote for taking the revo, for the simple reason that if you are jumped by surprise by a bear (or lion, or woof) and are actually getting attacked, you can bring a revo into play with one hand. That's not necessarily possible with a rifle.
If I see the bear start to come my way from a 100 yards out, then hell yes take the rifle instead. But can you choose when you are going to get attacked? No. In that regard it's additional insurance. Insurance costs money in civilization, and weight on a hunt. Sucks if you need it, and don't have it.
Many here feel that carrying both is stupid or silly yet the overwhelming consensus of armed professionals is that a smart guy always carries a handgun if there is a possibility of conflict.
Does that include Phil Shoemaker? Does he pack a handgun while rifle hunting Brown Bear? (lets ask him)
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If you think a bear attack is not going to be at close quarters or that it will not be a battle then you are mistaken.
Nobody thinks that, but I'd still rather have my rifle in my hands than a handgun.
Question, if you have a bear in the bush would you, John, rather take your handgun in after him or your rifle?
If you were hunting griz with a handgun would you rather your guide back you up with a handgun or a rifle?
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Guys who have been in lots of Close Quarters Battle pack handguns, every one of them.
My son, a Marine, was in plenty of battle in CQB while in AFS. He and his fellow enlisted Marines never packed a handgun. NOT one of them.
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Ted Nugent killed a previously wounded cape buffalo with a 10MM Glock on video.
I would rate that as a stunt, not the norm and certainly not the norm for most hunters.
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My friend and mentor Ross Seyfried killed a cape buffalo in full charge with his old original Linebaugh 45 Colt. That revolver killed an absolute truck load of previously rifle wounded game while Ross was a PH in Africa. It was always on his hip and he could shoot it with precision.
And every hunter who packs a handgun along with the rifle is of "Ross Seyfried" ability? What percentage of hunter could handle accurately the recoil of a Linebaugh?
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Larry Kelly and JD Jones have also written extensively about dealing with dangerous critters with handguns.
Nobody here is saying it can't be done with a handgun. Let's keep the main thing the main thing here. We're talking about packing a rifle and a handgun. Not just a HAND-RIFLE.
And since you're citing examples of men who kill with handguns why didn't you kill that Griz with one? Not your element? Show us a pic of a griz you killed with a handgun. Then I'll yeah! he is.
And since you're citing examples of men who kill with handguns why didn't you kill that Griz with one? Not your element? Show us a pic of a griz you killed with a handgun. Then I'll yeah! he is.
Well I never have killed a grizzly with a handgun. I have knocked over a few critters with a revolver and I am not worried that a handgun will be ineffective on a bear.
Here is a video that a buddy of mine made while bowhunting in Alaska. Pretty hard to have a rifle in your hands while paddling a raft and momma grizzly comes callin.
[Here is a video that a buddy of mine made while bowhunting in Alaska. Pretty hard to have a rifle in your hands while paddling a raft and momma grizzly comes callin.
seen footage of a griz attack on a raft repelled with a shotgun recently, so it aint that hard.
you'd think having two friends roughed up by bears while packing handguns should be a clue.
if you are the kind of guy that leaves your rifle 'leaning on trees' or such, you are probably the kind of guy that puts too many clothes over the handgun.
but, seriously, if we really were really in a war with grizzly bears, we'd be wearing night vision goggles and carrying hand grenades, too, not just carrying hand guns. Hell, let's go belt-fed and make sure of this deal.
this boils down to a "do what winds your clock" and it's probably best to leave at the personal choice level, since nobody is going to convince anybody else.
John looks like he doesn't need to bother with the rifle anyways.
I always carried a 5" model 29 when hunting simply because you NEVER know, and chances are the bear will be on you before you know it is there!
So are you better off with rifle in hand or handgun in holster?
I can recall plenty of times while hunting where my rifle was leaning against a tree, or what have you.
PS The only times I've carried a sidearm while hunting have been while boar hunting, and I had a rifle each time too (which is what I shot my boar with). One time the handgun was a holstered S&W M57 (loaded with Federal CastCore) and the other time it was a holstered S&W M329 (loaded with jacketed soft points). Never had need of the sidearms, but like T Lee said, I didn't regret having them with me.
PPS I can remember another time, but that was whitetail deer hunting, and the handgun (a Kahr P9) was only carried out of habit, not with the intention of defending against critters, though I guess it would have been better than nothing if my rifle wasn't handy, and there were plenty of black bear in the area.
In reference to the original question; Load your 44mag with the toughest cast core loads you can get. A pistol on the hip isn't all that much more to carry and if you get jumped by a bear chances are it will stay put in the holster better than a rifle will in your hands. I wouldn't go hunting a grizz with any pistol but it's better to have and not need than need and not have. Best option is the rifle of course, but the question was if a pistol was DOABLE as grizz defense. Hopefully you will never find out. And as my buddy who hunts in bear country out in Wyoming says, "Keep one round for yourself." Good hunting.
Well I have learned a lot. Guess I am just a stupid fool and never need to carry anything but a stick in grizzly country so my fingernail file should be overkill here in black bear and cougar country.
I am about to do some salmon fishing. If a bear comes along a 1/4 oz Buzz Bomb should do the trick.
So far, that's the biggest load of bullshit on this thread.
Compared to most of the folks here at the Fire, I'm not a hunter, though I have hunted a bit here and there over the years. Got my first small game license before a hunter safety course/certification was a requirement. Was grandfathered in thereafter for big game licenses, and therefore didn't need that certificate, but since I worked at a hunting/fishing/camping/gun shop that offered the course and certification I eventually took it and got one anyway. That was about eighteen years ago.
He recommended that, in addition to my .30-06 bolt gun, I also bring a bear stopping handgun to wear while hunting.
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Guess I am just a stupid fool and never need to carry anything but a stick in grizzly country so my fingernail file should be overkill here in black bear and cougar country.
I know of two individuals that by carrying a handgun while hunting with a rifle were able to save themselves with the handgun.
Both individuals were attacked before they could bring their rifles to up in order to get off a shot. The first one was finally able to get his 357 Ruger in hand and shot the Bear in the mouth and at that point the bear lost interest, turned and walked away. He suffered severe injuries, but the handgun saved his life.
The second individual was Moose hunting when the bear attacked, again before he could get of off a shot with his rifle. Luckily he was carrying a 44 mag Desert Eagle and was able to kill the bear. I remember his quote when interviewed in the hospital that he would have loved to have shot his hunting partner that ran away when the attack occurred
I carry a handgun and I always have it with me in Grizzly country, always
I read the OP and understand exactly what he is saying.
I do not live in grizzly country but I have been there several times. Once took 22 high schoolers fishing in Alaska. I carried a handgun as did two other adults and they were from Alaska. Not a rifle in the bunch and there were bear signs all around us.
But the general expert consensus seems to be against carrying a handgun.
So is a #2 Lil' Corky with some green yarn big enough to fend off a bear? Is 15 pound test enough?
While working at Old Faithful lodge a couple of springs ago, Ricky Ranger had to get griz off a killed buff, as it was becoming a problem with it's proximity to our work.
They waded in there with 12 gauges. Their back up pistols were their standard issues, not .44 magnums.. take that for what it's worth.
As for getting the bear to boogie, cracker rounds and beanbags worked very well.
Bears are like people, they don't all act or re-act alike. Most bears that I have been around high-tailed it when they smelled or saw a person, but the one that came in on me cleaning the Moose didn't care that we were there and we were talking very loud trying to discourage bears. Works most of the time, but not that time
I forgot the smiley Steve. I am just poking a little fun. I will o fishing and I will carry just like I carry every day.I never expect a problem but I try to always be ready. If I had a 45 LC or such I would carry it while fishing ect and leave the 1911 at home.I do not so the 1911 will have to do.
Bears are like people, they don't all act or re-act alike. Most bears that I have been around high-tailed it when they smelled or saw a person, but the one that came in on me cleaning the Moose didn't care that we were there and we were talking very loud trying to discourage bears. Works most of the time, but not that time
I forgot the smiley Steve. I am just poking a little fun. I will o fishing and I will carry just like I carry every day.I never expect a problem but I try to always be ready. If I had a 45 LC or such I would carry it while fishing ect and leave the 1911 at home.I do not so the 1911 will have to do.
Here is the missing smiley.
I like your approach to these things, i.e., if you don't have the spare cash, that means you cannot get something. The banks have trained most folks to respond to that situation by just going ever deeper into debt.
I forgot the smiley Steve. I am just poking a little fun. I will o fishing and I will carry just like I carry every day.I never expect a problem but I try to always be ready. If I had a 45 LC or such I would carry it while fishing ect and leave the 1911 at home.I do not so the 1911 will have to do.
If you want more power you might check out Clark Custom's .460 Rowland conversion. Costs about $300, drops in with no fitting, brass available from Starline, can use .45 ACP dies to load. I'm getting 1500 fps+ with a 185 grain bullet out of this cartridge.
Hard to believe all the advice. Seems to me that you got your advice from the guys that you will be hunting with. Here's mine. Take your 329 and Fed CC on your hip and forget about it. Just like the guys recommended. And hope that you don't have to pull it except to unload.
I have Buffalo Bores in .41mag for my Black Hawk, but the cylinder of my little Taurus is too short for them. The 250gr Fed CastCores work great in the Taurus. They are a shorter cartridge in the .41mag, for sure. Good luck on your hunt.
If you want more power you might check out Clark Custom's .460 Rowland conversion. Costs about $300, drops in with no fitting, brass available from Starline, can use .45 ACP dies to load. I'm getting 1500 fps+ with a 185 grain bullet out of this cartridge.
I would love to try one but I am living on SS alone. Without some major life changing miracle What I have now will be it for the rest of the time I have. I will live with it and keep smiling.
It certainly is not a Grizzly. It is not even a bear. I am, however, glad I was wearing my .44 Vaquero while working on the tractor this afternoon. I also had a rifle and a shotgun in the cab but could never have gotten off a shot if I had not had a revolver.
It certainly is not a Grizzly. It is not even a bear. I am, however, glad I was wearing my .44 Vaquero while working on the tractor this afternoon. I also had a rifle and a shotgun in the cab but could never have gotten off a shot if I had not had a revolver.
Which is exactly the reason for carrying a pistol, for when you CAN'T get off a shot with a rifle, eg. close quarters, confined spaces, rifle out of reach, and quite a few other reasons.
So you guys who only carry a rifle please tell me what you will do when you spring a bear at close range and your rifle is knocked from your hands? Or you wake up to see a bear half inside your tent? Call time out till you get it back or reach for something else, even if it's just the knife on your belt, or just lay down and wait to die?
p.s. this is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone so please don't take offense.
You would be too scared to do anything should a bear come running....They are A LOT scarier than a guy in a truck...
In that case, why even bother to carry a rifle ... or bear spray??
Just lay down and play dead, until you are dead... just like the two girls in Glacier Park in 1967, when they were mauled and killed by two separate Grizzlies in separate incidents, on the same night. They did as advised by "experts" and "played dead" until they were dead.
One of the dead girl's boy friend also "played dead" and was only badly mauled. "Glacier Park, Night Of The Grizzlies," www.montanapbs.org.
I'll just continue to depend on my handgun or rifle, and being careful. Works for me.
L.W.
The comment is based on the original posters fear of guys in pickup trucks.....
It certainly is not a Grizzly. It is not even a bear. I am, however, glad I was wearing my .44 Vaquero while working on the tractor this afternoon. I also had a rifle and a shotgun in the cab but could never have gotten off a shot if I had not had a revolver.
Yep, without that revolver...you woulda been a goner!
OK so you all have convinced me to leave the handgun at home. What should I carry seeing as how there have been bear tracks and a rub less than 40 feet from my back door. A double rifle in 505 Gibbs?
OK so you all have convinced me to leave the handgun at home. What should I carry seeing as how there have been bear tracks and a rub less than 40 feet from my back door. A double rifle in 505 Gibbs?
Hey, now you are talking! I think a IWB would work just fine.
It is funny that this subject more or less has appeared on a 1911 forum, Can a Wilson Combat 1911 in .45 Auto be used for bear protection while fly fishing in Alaska? The Wilson factory rep says yes to the Wilson Combat as long as it's their Hunter model in .460 Rowland.
So get a .460 Rowland in a 1911 platform and you are good to go. I did watch some you tube videos on the .460 Rowland and I think it could put down the Thing for keeps.
OK so you all have convinced me to leave the handgun at home. What should I carry seeing as how there have been bear tracks and a rub less than 40 feet from my back door. A double rifle in 505 Gibbs?
Hey, now you are talking! I think a IWB would work just fine.
It would have to be a stainless with synthetic stock so when I go wading for salmon off the beach it will not rust.
I wonder if Milt Sparks will make a IWB holster for it.I already walk with a limp so the barrels hanging below my knee won't be a problem...
It is funny that this subject more or less has appeared on a 1911 forum, Can a Wilson Combat 1911 in .45 Auto be used for bear protection while fly fishing in Alaska? The Wilson factory rep says yes to the Wilson Combat as long as it's their Hunter model in .460 Rowland.
So get a .460 Rowland in a 1911 platform and you are good to go. I did watch some you tube videos on the .460 Rowland and I think it could put down the Thing for keeps.
The Buffalo Bore 255 grain flat point hard cast at 960 FPS would be a good load for the 45 ACP, also they load the same bullet in in 45 Super to 1090 FPS. As long as the Bears aren't too large theses loads should work well
OK so you all have convinced me to leave the handgun at home. What should I carry seeing as how there have been bear tracks and a rub less than 40 feet from my back door. A double rifle in 505 Gibbs?
Hey, now you are talking! I think a IWB would work just fine.
It would have to be a stainless with synthetic stock so when I go wading for salmon off the beach it will not rust.
I wonder if Milt Sparks will make a IWB holster for it.I already walk with a limp so the barrels hanging below my knee won't be a problem...
It is funny that this subject more or less has appeared on a 1911 forum, Can a Wilson Combat 1911 in .45 Auto be used for bear protection while fly fishing in Alaska? The Wilson factory rep says yes to the Wilson Combat as long as it's their Hunter model in .460 Rowland.
So get a .460 Rowland in a 1911 platform and you are good to go. I did watch some you tube videos on the .460 Rowland and I think it could put down the Thing for keeps.
The Buffalo Bore 255 grain flat point hard cast at 960 FPS would be a good load for the 45 ACP, also they load the same bullet in in 45 Super to 1090 FPS. As long as the Bears aren't too large theses loads should work well
That's what I kind of figure, here in Montana our Griz run around a 1/4 of ton. Now in Alaska.....
OK so you all have convinced me to leave the handgun at home. What should I carry seeing as how there have been bear tracks and a rub less than 40 feet from my back door. A double rifle in 505 Gibbs?
Hey, now you are talking! I think a IWB would work just fine.
It would have to be a stainless with synthetic stock so when I go wading for salmon off the beach it will not rust.
I wonder if Milt Sparks will make a IWB holster for it.I already walk with a limp so the barrels hanging below my knee won't be a problem...
A Stainless gun can rust also as the following photo of my Springfield illistrates
Hard chrome or electroless nickle has FAR more rust protection than stainless. Glock's Tenifer is pretty bad ass stuff also.
+1.........
+2....my daily carry Commander is HC and after daily carry for 4 years still looks like new.... Electroless-Nickel is the finish Colt put on some of their guns in the 1970s...not near as durable as HC and starts to look "grainy' after a while....it WILL also rust...been there, done that...
So, who makes a double rifle in 505 Gibbs? How do you carry one all day while working on a farm, fishing and such?
Typically double rifles are chambered in lower pressure and rimmed rounds like the .450s (No. 2 and 3 1/4-inch), the .470 NE and the .500 NE (on up). THe .505 Gibbs is a caliber for a bolt action rifle.
here is a good link on the .460 rowland clark conversion. I have done this to a norinco 1911a1. it has a lot of snort. pretty much a .44magnum in a pistol. With the springs and muzzle break, it is much nicer shooting than a .44magnum pistol however. and it does penetrate given some of the stuff i have put xtp bullets through. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm
here is a good link on the .460 rowland clark conversion. I have done this to a norinco 1911a1. it has a lot of snort. pretty much a .44magnum in a pistol. With the springs and muzzle break, it is much nicer shooting than a .44magnum pistol however. and it does penetrate given some of the stuff i have put xtp bullets through. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm
OK getting back to being serious for a moment. That would be a lot of fun and if I had the opportunity I would buy a good frame and have the work done. Unless the winning lottery ticket shows up it is not an option for me. So I will continue to cast my 235 gr truncated cone and just use what I have. It may not be the ideal grizzly gun and it may not even be adequate for black bear but it will do more than a Lil' Corky with a piece of green yarn on fifteen pound test.
I would also own a good single action like the Ruger Alaskan, and probably a 45-70 double rifle just because I have always wanted them.
Getting back to the original post Hawkeye asked a reasonable question. He is going into a land strange to him where there are big bears. I believe he is trying to use common sense. He asked those who might know more about the subject than he knows. Isn't that what this place is about?
I know he is experiences with handguns. I know from reading his posts he has a lot of practice time both drawing and shooting. I will go on record as supporting his carrying a handgun in grizzly country. If for no other reason it will give him a sense of security and allow him to have a great hunt. I for one wish him well.
here is a good link on the .460 rowland clark conversion. I have done this to a norinco 1911a1. it has a lot of snort. pretty much a .44magnum in a pistol. With the springs and muzzle break, it is much nicer shooting than a .44magnum pistol however. and it does penetrate given some of the stuff i have put xtp bullets through. http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm
Thanks Scott, and to all here who've made this an interesting thread with lots of good information.
Today I had my gunsmith neuter the frame-mounted key lock from my S&W 329PD. He just filed off the "tooth" from the inside, so it looks like the locking mechanism is still there, but turning it does nothing. The advantage to this is that it doesn't leave a hole for debris to get in, and of course I don't have to worry about the lock engaging under recoil, which apparently has been reported to have happened with the heavier hitting, lighter weight, S&W revolvers. The disadvantage only comes into play if I sell it in this condition and someone thinks they've made it "child proof" by turning the key on it, and then leaves it out where kids can get it. Before selling it, therefore, I'd have the key lock restored, but I have no intention of selling such a cool gun, so it's a moot point.
What makes people think a pistol can't be knocked from their hands?
No one ever said it couldn't, the point is that carrying a pistol as well as a rifle makes sense, there will be times when the rifle is not able to be deployed quickly or is not in your hands eg. you're slopping along fifty yards from the truck, it's cold and wet, you've been out all day and not seen a thing, your rifle's slung over your shoulder. You go to swing it up and it catches on some brush. Or, you're pumping up the raft about to float down river, head down pumping and a bear knocks you on your tail. I understand you don't want to carry a pistol for whatever reason and that's fine by me, I just wondered what you would do in a situation where your rifle is out of play for whatever reason and a bear is up close and personal, wanting to turn you into a happy meal or beat the snot out of you for being too close to its cubs etc
I am sure you have a lot more experience in grizzly country than I do but I am surprised who you think a handgun is such a bad idea. Not being a smart ass this time but just really want to know. I am willing to rethink my views.
My handgun is on my body or in reach 24/7. My rifles are not. A handgun could get knocked out of my hand but so could a rifle. Somewhere I am missing your point.
i wonder how many of these guys obcessing about bear protection yap on their cell phones while navigating rush hour traffic (probably 1000X more likely to kill people)
I am sure you have a lot more experience in grizzly country than I do but I am surprised who you think a handgun is such a bad idea. Not being a smart ass this time but just really want to know. I am willing to rethink my views.
My handgun is on my body or in reach 24/7. My rifles are not. A handgun could get knocked out of my hand but so could a rifle. Somewhere I am missing your point.
if you carry 24/7, there is no reason not to in the woods. we are talking about rifle hunting and carrying a handgun specifically for bear protection.
go read Mule Deer's post HERE in the griz thread on the AK forum about the bow hunter that shot a griz that got too close with his .45. the bear came over and mauled him, until another guy showed up with bear spray and ran it off. two maulings happened this year in MT BECAUSE the bear got shot. so if you are gonna shoot one, you gotta kill it, and knowing that the rifle i'm hunting with is my best friend.
I am sure you have a lot more experience in grizzly country than I do but I am surprised who you think a handgun is such a bad idea. Not being a smart ass this time but just really want to know. I am willing to rethink my views.
My handgun is on my body or in reach 24/7. My rifles are not. A handgun could get knocked out of my hand but so could a rifle. Somewhere I am missing your point.
I am sure you have a lot more experience in grizzly country than I do but I am surprised who you think a handgun is such a bad idea. Not being a smart ass this time but just really want to know. I am willing to rethink my views.
My handgun is on my body or in reach 24/7. My rifles are not. A handgun could get knocked out of my hand but so could a rifle. Somewhere I am missing your point.
if you carry 24/7, there is no reason not to in the woods. we are talking about rifle hunting and carrying a handgun specifically for bear protection.
go read Mule Deer's post HERE in the griz thread on the AK forum about the bow hunter that shot a griz that got too close with his .45. the bear came over and mauled him, until another guy showed up with bear spray and ran it off. two maulings happened this year in MT BECAUSE the bear got shot. so if you are gonna shoot one, you gotta kill it, and knowing that the rifle i'm hunting with is my best friend.
A properly powerful hundgun or rifle, with a proper bullet that is properly placed is what is required doesn't matter if it is a handgun or a rifle either will do the trick.
yes. true. and of course, EVERYBODY thinks THEY are capable of the CNS shot on a tiny moving target under stress with a suitably powerful handgun. the PHs and bear guides all seem to gravitate to rifles when they have to mop up. better hit probability with more horsepower maybe?
My handgun worked just fine without a CNS hit. If you had read Ross Seyfried you'd know that he moped up a lot of game in Africa with a handgun when he PH'd
A few years ago a couple of bowhunters after elk here in Montana ran into a sow grizzly with cubs that acted aggressive. One of the guys had a .45 ACP and started shooting, hitting the bear somewhere. She charged and got him down, and was tearing the hell out of him when his companion chased the bear away with pepper spray. Luckily the first guy lived.
Example of one, but you were asking about real-life examples of bears becoming more aggressive after being shot with handguns.
No mention of the load nor where the bear was hit. Most 45 ACP factory loads are definately not adequate for bears
i wonder how many of these guys obcessing about bear protection yap on their cell phones while navigating rush hour traffic (probably 1000X more likely to kill people)
That's actually a comforting thought, but something about the prospect of being eaten alive by a huge predator is even more terrifying. Probably millions of years of genetic programming.
I am sure you have a lot more experience in grizzly country than I do but I am surprised who you think a handgun is such a bad idea. Not being a smart ass this time but just really want to know. I am willing to rethink my views.
My handgun is on my body or in reach 24/7. My rifles are not. A handgun could get knocked out of my hand but so could a rifle. Somewhere I am missing your point.
if you carry 24/7, there is no reason not to in the woods. we are talking about rifle hunting and carrying a handgun specifically for bear protection.
go read Mule Deer's post HERE in the griz thread on the AK forum about the bow hunter that shot a griz that got too close with his .45. the bear came over and mauled him, until another guy showed up with bear spray and ran it off. two maulings happened this year in MT BECAUSE the bear got shot. so if you are gonna shoot one, you gotta kill it, and knowing that the rifle i'm hunting with is my best friend.
Absolutely you should prefer your rifle to your handgun. No one here is saying to drop your rifle and draw your revolver.
i wonder how many of these guys obcessing about bear protection yap on their cell phones while navigating rush hour traffic (probably 1000X more likely to kill people)
That's actually a comforting thought, but something about the prospect of being eaten alive by a huge predator is even more terrifying. Probably millions of years of genetic programming.
yes, and that is probably why these threads get so many hits.
They get so many hits because most people have little experience with bears especially bears that want to maul them. On the other hand people have lots of experience with automobiles
i wonder how many of these guys obcessing about bear protection yap on their cell phones while navigating rush hour traffic (probably 1000X more likely to kill people)
That's actually a comforting thought, but something about the prospect of being eaten alive by a huge predator is even more terrifying. Probably millions of years of genetic programming.
yes, and that is probably why these threads get so many hits.
What makes people think a pistol can't be knocked from their hands?
No one ever said it couldn't, the point is that carrying a pistol as well as a rifle makes sense, there will be times when the rifle is not able to be deployed quickly or is not in your hands eg. you're slopping along fifty yards from the truck, it's cold and wet, you've been out all day and not seen a thing, your rifle's slung over your shoulder. You go to swing it up and it catches on some brush. Or, you're pumping up the raft about to float down river, head down pumping and a bear knocks you on your tail. I understand you don't want to carry a pistol for whatever reason and that's fine by me, I just wondered what you would do in a situation where your rifle is out of play for whatever reason and a bear is up close and personal, wanting to turn you into a happy meal or beat the snot out of you for being too close to its cubs etc
you just somewhat described what happened to me on two separate occasions. One where is was in a verty thick bunch of oak and could not bring easily my rifle to shoulder when a black bear was very close. The other was on a hike with wife and the dogs when a bear was woofing at us buried in some thickets very close and all i had was a 9mm. Went on a quest to find something that made me feel better. I also have camped up a number of times in n.e. colorado where they "don't" have grizz, but i don't think grizz understand state boundaries. And wondered what i would do in the sleeping bag in the wall tent in a hurry.
by the way that clark conversion was a drop in and took only a couple of minutes to install in the norinco. I think at the time it was about 350 bucks from brownells, brass from starline. this is going back a few years, but from memory i fired a xtp through the steel top of a 50 gallon steel container into the air tank of a air compressor. It pentetrated the steel lid, the side of the compressor tank, and bulged the back side. And as the video pointed out as a semi automatic it was fast to fire unlike a hard kicking revolver.
I still think the common sense approach would be to carry an adequate rifle and have an adequate handgun on your person at all times. You would need to be well practiced and and proficient with both. Some say the handgun is unnecessary and I have no problem with anyone not carrying one but I would choose to carry an adequate handgun at all times I was out and about in Grizzly country. That is just me.
I'm thinking of holding off on my Wilson purchase for a while longer. I already have a standard 1911 in .45 Auto and I do live in bear country and as someone just said Griz don't know boundaries. That .460 Rowland is starting to look awfully good. I do have a .44 mag but recoil makes getting back on target difficult. A 1911 in .460 Rowland with compensator should get on target faster than a revolver. The big draw back I see it, is jamming. Pistols are notorious for jamming no matter how well made they are or how expensive they are.
Failing to cycle when subjected to body-to-body contact is a major drawback to an auto. Just read an article a few months ago about a female officer who got into a knock-down-drag-out fight with a larger male and when she was able to pull her Glock and fire it failed to cycle....not the guns fault, just the way it is...would have made no difference what kind of semi it was...
Give me a big bore DA revolver with a hardcast bullet of moderate velocity that I can control anytime...Bob
Failing to cycle when subjected to body-to-body contact is a major drawback to an auto. Just read an article a few months ago about a female officer who got into a knock-down-drag-out fight with a larger male and when she was able to pull her Glock and fire it failed to cycle....not the guns fault, just the way it is...would have made no difference what kind of semi it was...
Give me a big bore DA revolver with a hardcast bullet of moderate velocity that I can control anytime...Bob
I had a Model 742 in 30-06 that was over all a good rifle but every once in a while it would jam. The bolt would would go back and the empty would hang up coming out of the port. The nature of the beast.
Although I've seen problems with revolvers to. Sometimes your time is up.
"Fifth shot � the bullet went just below her chin and into the bear�s chest cavity. The sow crashed to the ground seven feet in front of him."
After reading the article this was about as close as it gets without getting chewed on. Six seconds from sighting to the last shot... No time to be digging under clothes for a handgun...
He only had 5 rounds in the gun...wonder if it was an Colt style SA or a could have had six beans in the wheel new style SA...or a DA with just 5 in... And had no reload with him either,
That Sow (with two cubs in tow) was charging downhill at the two bow hunters. The shooter missed her three times. And he stays put and gets it done. That takes some sand.
I would like to know why he only had 5 rounds, too.
Interesting to note, I think the bear was responding to the cow call they were using, I quess the grizz figured on some fast food that morning.
Could be Dad gave him a model 60 - hence the five rounds and maybe a factor in the difficulty in hitting if it was a 3" or less. I bet he carries at least one reload from now on. And I bet his partner checks his guns' function before leaving home from now on.
No mention of the load nor where the bear was hit. Most 45 ACP factory loads are definately not adequate for bears
Take it from someone who�s been in a fight with a bear, the .45 ACP isn�t proper bear medicine. .41 magnum is minimum in my book. I was in a fight with a black bear armed with a .357 and while it did the job, it didn�t impress me particularly. That year I changed to .44 magnum and the impact it had on a bear was almost identical to that of a .30-30.
I personally don't think there's a hill of beans difference between the .41 & .44 magnum, so .41 is my personal minimum. The .45 ACP with a 255gr. load is better than nothing, but I consider it extremely marginal.
Sometimes, there is an exception to the rule. Regarding Colt's 1911 and Grizzly bears ....
When I lived in Los Angeles, my wife and I owned a vacation cabin up in the southern Sierra on the western slope. Over the years, I became friends with an older man who lived there with his wife. He was retired.
There were a lot of Black bears and Mountain lions around our tiny community at 6,000 feet altitude. He always had a Smith & Wesson 29, 4" barrel, .44 Mag. with him. Once when we were having a beer at his home, talking about the bears that were around, he told me a story.
After WW II, he was living in Alaska, cruising timber for one of the big logging companies. He and his wife lived out in the boonies in a small cabin. One morning in 1949, he came out of the cabin to go to his wood pile to stoke his wood stove in the cabin.
As he walked near the wood pile, suddenly, without any warning, a large Grizzly charged from behind the wood pile. He immediately pulled a Colt's 1911 Govt. Model .45 ACP from his holster and began firing. At the eighth round, the bear dropped dead at his feet. At that time, it would have been standard for the cartridges to have been the regular 230 grains FMJ.
He showed me an old black and white Kodak picture of him kneeling beside the large but dead Grizzly, Govt. Model in hand. The wood pile was directly behind him.
I asked him, "Why'd you use a .45 ACP?"
He said, "'Cause that's all I had."
Simple enough, huh?
I will say, however, he had seen a little stress before. He'd been a paratrooper with the famous 101st Div. (Abn.) the "Screaming Eagles," and had jumped into Normandy, jumped into Holland, and had fought at the Battle of the Bulge.
As he said, sometimes you just gotta do with as you have.
Sometimes, there is an exception to the rule. Regarding Colt's 1911 and Grizzly bears ....
When I lived in Los Angeles, my wife and I owned a vacation cabin up in the southern Sierra on the western slope. Over the years, I became friends with an older man who lived there with his wife. He was retired.
There were a lot of Black bears and Mountain lions around our tiny community at 6,000 feet altitude. He always had a Smith & Wesson 29, 4" barrel, .44 Mag. with him. Once when we were having a beer at his home, talking about the bears that were around, he told me a story.
After WW II, he was living in Alaska, cruising timber for one of the big logging companies. He and his wife lived out in the boonies in a small cabin. One morning in 1949, he came out of the cabin to go to his wood pile to stoke his wood stove in the cabin.
As he walked near the wood pile, suddenly, without any warning, a large Grizzly charged from behind the wood pile. He immediately pulled a Colt's 1911 Govt. Model .45 ACP from his holster and began firing. At the eighth round, the bear dropped dead at his feet. At that time, it would have been standard for the cartridges to have been the regular 230 grains FMJ.
He showed me an old black and white Kodak picture of him kneeling beside the large but dead Grizzly, Govt. Model in hand. The wood pile was directly behind him.
I asked him, "Why'd you use a .45 ACP?"
He said, "'Cause that's all I had."
Simple enough, huh?
I will say, however, he had seen a little stress before. He'd been a paratrooper with the famous 101st Div. (Abn.) the "Screaming Eagles," and had jumped into Normandy, jumped into Holland, and had fought at the Battle of the Bulge.
As he said, sometimes you just gotta do with as you have.
L.W.
Great story, well told. I'd swear you could almost make a living writing stories like that.
It's beginning to look like Idaho is quite a wild place.
A lot of it is.
I made the poor decision to begin re-reading "White Fang" just before this summer's wilderness canoe trip in the Sawtooth Wilderness. First night out, I was surrounded by wolves that kept me awake all night with their howling and yipping. Sure made me wonder what it was they were all excited about, since I haven't seen much in the way of game there the last two years.
Wolf that was moaning around me in the morning went silent as soon as I made a little noise cleaning the mess kit. I guess they're still a bit shy there, at least.
I live in black bear country. I routinely fish in black bear country of the Eastern Sierra where they're as common as Alper Trout. My primary bear defense is avoidance. Griz is a horse of a different color.
My son and I are planning on a Yellowstone River fishing trip near the S/E corner of the park. We'll go with a guide. Hopefully s/he'll have a 12 gauge with slugs to protect my kid.
Handguns can reliably take griz, but they have severe limitations. Handguns that are powerful enough to use on griz are one-and-done guns, meaning that recoil prevents quick follow up shots. In contrast, a shoulder weapon such as an 870 will put many one-ounce slugs on a critter that intends to reveal your temporal loyalty to God.
To my way of looking at a griz handgun, I think a .41 Rem Mag is hard to beat. The sectional density of the bullets provides good penetration providing hard cast bullets are used. The recoil, while substantial, might provide for quicker follow-up shots. But then again, I can easily see the utility of a .454 Casull, a weapon that I have shot only once. For me, that is not a griz weapon because there is no why I could manage recoil sufficiently to reacquire sight picture in time for follow-up shots. I do respect men who have tamed full power .454 Casull loads.
The National Park Service should allow fisherman who fish in back country of national parks to carry 870 shotguns. I can think of nothing better than a magazine full of ounce slugs to tame a griz that's intent is to cause me to reside in a marble garden.
A common fallacy of hunters is to use an exception to prove a rule. I once read on a forum of a dude who advocated a 9MM for griz. Apparently some dude felled a griz with one shot of a 9MM. From that one-in-a-gazillion outcome he extrapolated that a 9MM is suitable for bear defense. As for me, I go with the rule & not the exception. Hence, for griz bigger is better and biggest is best. The fly in my ointment is my inability to shoot really big handguns reliably to be suitable for gizz defense. However, I can shoot an 870 very quickly and with complete reliability.
I live in black bear country. I routinely fish in black bear country of the Eastern Sierra where they're as common as Alper Trout. My primary bear defense is avoidance. Griz is a horse of a different color.
My son and I are planning on a Yellowstone River fishing trip near the S/E corner of the park. We'll go with a guide. Hopefully s/he'll have a 12 gauge with slugs to protect my kid.
Handguns can reliably take griz, but they have severe limitations. Handguns that are powerful enough to use on griz are one-and-done guns, meaning that recoil prevents quick follow up shots. In contrast, a shoulder weapon such as an 870 will put many one-ounce slugs on a critter that intends to reveal your temporal loyalty to God.
To my way of looking at a griz handgun, I think a .41 Rem Mag is hard to beat. The sectional density of the bullets provides good penetration providing hard cast bullets are used. The recoil, while substantial, might provide for quicker follow-up shots. But then again, I can easily see the utility of a .454 Casull, a weapon that I have shot only once. For me, that is not a griz weapon because there is no why I could manage recoil sufficiently to reacquire sight picture in time for follow-up shots. I do respect men who have tamed full power .454 Casull loads.
The National Park Service should allow fisherman who fish in back country of national parks to carry 870 shotguns. I can think of nothing better than a magazine full of ounce slugs to tame a griz that's intent is to cause me to reside in a marble garden.
Good luck,
R
I've settled on the S&W 329PD loaded with 300 grain Federal CastCore. I'd be able to manage quick follow up shots much better with a full weight Model 29 four inch, which I also have, but my concern is weight. I'm trying to keep everything light, other than the rifle, regarding which I've decided to err on the side of handling over reduced weight, and am going with a standard weight bolt action .30-06 (Dakota 76). Given a choice, in the case of a griz attack, I will use the bolt gun over the 329PD.
Good choice Hawk on both handgun and rifle. What bullet are you going to use for the 06? Good quality 165 grain works good for everything here in Montana and I'm sure for Idaho to.
Good choice Hawk on both handgun and rifle. What bullet are you going to use for the 06? Good quality 165 grain works good for everything here in Montana and I'm sure for Idaho to.
Federal Premium 180 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. The Dakota likes them. She puts them inside of 1.5" at 100 yards very consistently.
Sometimes, there is an exception to the rule. Regarding Colt's 1911 and Grizzly bears ....
When I lived in Los Angeles, my wife and I owned a vacation cabin up in the southern Sierra on the western slope. Over the years, I became friends with an older man who lived there with his wife. He was retired.
There were a lot of Black bears and Mountain lions around our tiny community at 6,000 feet altitude. He always had a Smith & Wesson 29, 4" barrel, .44 Mag. with him. Once when we were having a beer at his home, talking about the bears that were around, he told me a story.
After WW II, he was living in Alaska, cruising timber for one of the big logging companies. He and his wife lived out in the boonies in a small cabin. One morning in 1949, he came out of the cabin to go to his wood pile to stoke his wood stove in the cabin.
As he walked near the wood pile, suddenly, without any warning, a large Grizzly charged from behind the wood pile. He immediately pulled a Colt's 1911 Govt. Model .45 ACP from his holster and began firing. At the eighth round, the bear dropped dead at his feet. At that time, it would have been standard for the cartridges to have been the regular 230 grains FMJ.
He showed me an old black and white Kodak picture of him kneeling beside the large but dead Grizzly, Govt. Model in hand. The wood pile was directly behind him.
I asked him, "Why'd you use a .45 ACP?"
He said, "'Cause that's all I had."
Simple enough, huh?
I will say, however, he had seen a little stress before. He'd been a paratrooper with the famous 101st Div. (Abn.) the "Screaming Eagles," and had jumped into Normandy, jumped into Holland, and had fought at the Battle of the Bulge.
As he said, sometimes you just gotta do with as you have.
L.W.
Great story, well told. I'd swear you could almost make a living writing stories like that.
I have never seen a wild griz let alone shot one. However, I do know an adventurer who has. He told me that he'd rather chamber another round in his rifle (.300 WBY) than reach for a handgun were he have to defend himself from a charging griz. But then again, I can see where reaching for a suitable handgun would be the way to go if it I couldn't reload my rifle fast enough.
Raisuli, the compelling reason for carrying a handgun for bear defense is for the times when your rifle is no longer a viable option. As in, the bear's already hit you and you're being mauled.
For all other bear defense occasions, it's best to use a suitable long arm.
I used to own a 629. I tried becoming proficient with it. The recoil was just unmanageable for me. I shot one full-power .454 Casull. I never fired it again. I know my limitations. Were I to buy a big bore handgun, it would be a .41 Rem Mag. But before I forked out simoleons for one, I'd shoot one a lot to assure I could master it.
I'm looking at a Yellowstone trout trip next summer. If it's a drop camp, I'll take an 870 with slugs. If we go guide route, I hope to God s/he can protect my son and me.
FWIW, the caliber of the handgun you use under such circumstances is less important than having a handgun. If you haven't already done so, look at the Ruger GP100 or S&W M686 in 357 Magnum. These are very manageable handguns and, when stoked with full power .357 Mag loads, would be sufficient for deadly use purposes. A DA handgun is preferable to a SA, as you can use it more effectively one-handed. In a bear attack, one hand may be all you have available.
I know of at least one successful defense with a 357 Mag. I say "at least" because I have only comunicated personally with one of the men I speak of, the other two were second-hand stories. Brain shots killed all 3 bruins.
When I carry my 686 in the field, I load it with my handloaded 180 gr flatnose cast bullets over a moderate charge of H110. This is a much more manageable load, recoil-wise, than a heavier loaded 44 Mag or 45 Colt.
I have a life long friend who is a commercial Salmon fisherman in Homer. I showed him my shiny model 629 one day and asked about shooting a grizzly with one. He said all his guys, and all the guys he guides with carry Ruger Super Blackhawks. He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat. He called the Super Blackhawk the preferred berry picking gun of Alaska. He also told me that they keep Mossberg Mariner 12 gauge shotguns on board and take them ashore. A 12 gauge slug would seem mo better but I'm sure a nice stiff .44 mag or 6 would have to give you a chance.
Were I to buy a big bore handgun, it would be a .41 Rem Mag. But before I forked out simoleons for one, I'd shoot one a lot to assure I could master it.
R
44 = .429 41 = .411 diff = .018" bore Dia you really think that makes a difference?
FWIW, the caliber of the handgun you use under such circumstances is less important than having a handgun. If you haven't already done so, look at the Ruger GP100 or S&W M686 in 357 Magnum. These are very manageable handguns and, when stoked with full power .357 Mag loads, would be sufficient for deadly use purposes. A DA handgun is preferable to a SA, as you can use it more effectively one-handed. In a bear attack, one hand may be all you have available.
I know of at least one successful defense with a 357 Mag. I say "at least" because I have only comunicated personally with one of the men I speak of, the other two were second-hand stories. Brain shots killed all 3 bruins.
When I carry my 686 in the field, I load it with my handloaded 180 gr flatnose cast bullets over a moderate charge of H110. This is a much more manageable load, recoil-wise, than a heavier loaded 44 Mag or 45 Colt.
I remember our discussing this a long time ago, Doc, yet S&W still hasn't obliged us. I remain convinced that a five-shot .41 Rem Mag on a 4" L-Frame would be an excellent bear gun.
Just imagine a situation where a bear is on you and you are trying to get pepper spray in his face. Uh, okay.
Sure, pepper spray will work, there is enough evidence to prove it. But up close if all hell has broken loose and your last line of defense is pepper spray when a bear is on you, well, kiss your ass goodbye.
I work for a power company and routinely we are "charged" by dogs while out in the field; especially when working in the hood. Just the other day a buddy of mine sprayed a pitbull so much that his head was orange (the dog's face and head, that is). The dog was actually climbing a fence when he let him have it in the eyes, nose and mouth. I mean he hosed him down. It didn't affect him a bit. The dog made it over the fence and came at a clip. Luckily my friend made it to the truck in time (barely) and the dog circled the truck, sneezing and pissing on all four tires. Then the dog chased him for a quarter of a mile.
As an aside, I had a similar situation happen to me once though I did not have any pepper spray at the time. Some dogs are damn good fence climbers and when they are in that mode, believe me, they mean business. They're so pissed that you had better get on down the road.
Again, I'm not saying that pepper spray does not work. There are plenty of instances to prove that it does. However, it does not always work. And if you are surprised by a bear or it is on you before you have a chance to use your rifle or your pepper spray, the one and only thing that might save your ass is the revolver at which so many of you have scoffed. If you don't feel proficient enough to use one, don't do it. If you do, have at it.
After reading your post I guess I'll add my .02 on pepper spray. I doubt it's effectiveness as well on a pizzed off bear.
I remember back in the day (Vietnam Era) when tear gas was the weapon of choice for riot control and training in the field. The first time I was hosed with the stuff (I think it was CS gas IIRC) without a gas mask I was in agony. But as time went on, the more and more I was exposed to the gas the more the gas didn't bother me much. It was just like having a lite case of hay fever. After a while, in the field, I never bother to don a gas mask.
I noticed that the professional rioters weren't bother by it much either because they had been exposed to the gas so much they had built up a type of immunity to the gas.
I wonder if bears who have been sprayed by the pepper spray so much have built up an immunity as well? I wonder if the spray has much effect on a really pizzed off bear? Most of the studies I've seen on how wonderfull the spray is, the studies have been done with captured bears in cages.
He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat.
I'm sure that would be shocking news to the millions of police and military who have carried DA Smiths through all kinds of nasty chit and still had them go bang when the trigger was pulled.
I once carried an S&W 5906. It was one of the most reliable handguns I have ever carried. I trusted it more than any revolver I have ever carried. It's only negative was its caliber.
Before we were issued the 5906, the agency that employed me torture tested it. A copy was fired 10,000 times w/o cleaning. It never flinched.
I, too, was exposed to tear gas. Like you, I wasn't inconvenienced by it to any appreciable degree. In contrast, the most miserable training I have ever had to endure was pepper spray. It immediately incapacitated me, and I was totally helpless for at least a half-hour.
It becomes dicey when trying to extrapolate effects of pepper spray on humans to animals. I once pepper sprayed a threatening dog. It stopped its advance, but I can't tell you that it did so because of the pepper spray because it didn't seen to bother it. It could be argued that it stopped its advance because it was confused by the stream of fluid to its eyes. Either way, it gave me time to escape w/o being bitten.
Were I in wilderness and the threat were bear, I'd want a suitable gun.
One of the challenges with bear sprays is that wind or other circumstances can cause it to be redirected to the person spraying. That is what happened to a friend of mine that was mauled by a grizzly outside of Libby Montana.
He said all his guys, and all the guys he guides with carry Ruger Super Blackhawks. He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat. He called the Super Blackhawk the preferred berry picking gun of Alaska. He also told me that they keep Mossberg Mariner 12 gauge shotguns on board and take them ashore. A 12 gauge slug would seem mo better but I'm sure a nice stiff .44 mag or 6 would have to give you a chance.
That's rich. It's hard to beat the reliabilty of a DA revolver.
He said all his guys, and all the guys he guides with carry Ruger Super Blackhawks. He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat. He called the Super Blackhawk the preferred berry picking gun of Alaska. He also told me that they keep Mossberg Mariner 12 gauge shotguns on board and take them ashore. A 12 gauge slug would seem mo better but I'm sure a nice stiff .44 mag or 6 would have to give you a chance.
That's rich. It's hard to beat the reliabilty of a DA revolver.
I thought that was kind of rich too. I remember listening in one time to this kumquat teaching a CCW class go on and on how pistols(semiautos) were more reliable than double action revolvers. Now having fired both for about 50 years the only time i can remember a mallfunction with a revolver, very rare, was when the ejector rod loosened up, or something getting lodged under the ejector star, also very rare if you clean the gun once in a while. Let me count the ways guns can malfunction. and while i have never popped a bear with a shotgun slug, i think it would make a LOT of difference what kind of slug it is. Now i know a 12guage slug is moving about like a commercial loaded .45/70, but it ain't no .45/70 in bullet construction. And i was just rattling my tooth filings yesterday with my guide gun with 405 grainers at 1700fps
In severe conditions the auto is more reliable than the DA revolver. But for most things, the DA revolver tends to be more reliable. Get a DA revolver near sand and things stop happening pretty quick. But for just honest carry, with reasonable maintenance, the DA revolver will be much more reliable than the auto.
and come to think of it, i have always been fond of flap holsters, as in the german WWII pancake holster which i understand was developed to protect a P08 from debris.
I have had range malfunctions with two S&W revolvers both of which rendered my weapons inoperable. I have never had a single malfunction with a 5906 or a P-229. I'd much rather trust my life to a good-quality semiauto than a revolver. And when a semiauto malfunctions it's almost always the case that its easy to clear. However, when a revolver malfunctions and the cylinder won't revolve or won't unlatch, it's usually all over but the crying.
...He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat. He called the Super Blackhawk the preferred berry picking gun of Alaska.
Hmmm. I'm always curious as to where this backwoods wisdom comes from... experience, or just rural legend? I'm inclined to believe the latter.
Where, exactly, does that "speck of grit" have to be? I've been shooting DA and SA revolvers in hunting and competition for 15+ years, we're talking 70,000+ rounds of revolver ammo downrange. The only times I've had a revolver of any kind fail to fire is when one of two things have happened: 1) the cylinder was jammed by out-of-spec ammo (high primers or bullet creep) so it couldn't cycle, and that has happened only a handful of times with reloaded ammo from another; and 2) when the timing of the revolver was off due to excessive wear of the cylinder's "hand" (it's happened with only one revolver I own, and that after tens of thousands of rounds fired through it). I've fired DA revolvers without cleaning them for several thousands of rounds just to see how dirty I could get them, and they still fired. Every time. I had one revolver (S&W 686) get splashed with mud and gravel during an IDPA match in the rain and although the action was gritty, it functioned just fine and I was able to finish the match. My favorite revolversmith and one of the best S&W-certified smiths in the nation, a retired cop in Indiana, has carried and shot S&W DA revolvers thru his entire career and in plenty of competition and training. He's never had one of his guns choke up because they were dirty, either.
So I would ask your lifelong friend, if you get the chance: where exactly does that speck of grit have to be to lock up a DA revolver? Because I haven't found it yet and I'd sure like to have the benefit of his greater experience in this matter.
Think about it. The only things that will render a revolver inoperable (short of a breaking a mainspring, something that will pretty much kill ANY handgun) are: 1) binding up the cylinder so it can't rotate, and 2)breaking the trigger-hammer connection. As you may or may not be aware, the only difference in the way DA and SA cylinders rotate on the pin is... nonexistent. They both rotate on a pin. Period. So anything that can block rotation of a SA revolver cylinder can block rotation of a DA revolver cylinder. As for breaking the trigger mechanism, the delicacy of a SA trigger-sear-hammer connection is no better or worse than a DA trigger-hammer-sear connection.
Sorry, but I call bullshit on your Alaska buddy's "revolver wisdom".
Have to agree with Doc. The only times I've seen a DA revolver lock up have been either out-of-spec ammo, or out-of-spec clearances on the revolver - which were easily determined and corrected.
Even the model 60 that I bent the crane on in a motorcycle wreck still functioned well enough.
OTOH - if something is making the cylinder drag on a SA revolver (as I've seen with C&B replicas) you have only one source of leverage to hopefully apply enough force to overcome it with.
...there is one other problem that sometimes happens..ejector rod back out.... Cure is simple, but sometimes getting the cylinder out is not...especially if you don't have the experience of what is happening...
...there is one other problem that sometimes happens..ejector rod back out.... Cure is simple, but sometimes getting the cylinder out is not...especially if you don't have the experience of what is happening...
Bob
Yeah - thanks for reminding me. seen that once too. Right after a trip to the gunsmith. Fixed easily and didn't repeat itself.
...He said one speck of grit in my nice tight double action and I would be bear scat. He called the Super Blackhawk the preferred berry picking gun of Alaska.
Hmmm. I'm always curious as to where this backwoods wisdom comes from... experience, or just rural legend? I'm inclined to believe the latter.
Where, exactly, does that "speck of grit" have to be? I've been shooting DA and SA revolvers in hunting and competition for 15+ years, we're talking 70,000+ rounds of revolver ammo downrange. The only times I've had a revolver of any kind fail to fire is when one of two things have happened: 1) the cylinder was jammed by out-of-spec ammo (high primers or bullet creep) so it couldn't cycle, and that has happened only a handful of times with reloaded ammo from another; and 2) when the timing of the revolver was off due to excessive wear of the cylinder's "hand" (it's happened with only one revolver I own, and that after tens of thousands of rounds fired through it). I've fired DA revolvers without cleaning them for several thousands of rounds just to see how dirty I could get them, and they still fired. Every time. I had one revolver (S&W 686) get splashed with mud and gravel during an IDPA match in the rain and although the action was gritty, it functioned just fine and I was able to finish the match. My favorite revolversmith and one of the best S&W-certified smiths in the nation, a retired cop in Indiana, has carried and shot S&W DA revolvers thru his entire career and in plenty of competition and training. He's never had one of his guns choke up because they were dirty, either.
So I would ask your lifelong friend, if you get the chance: where exactly does that speck of grit have to be to lock up a DA revolver? Because I haven't found it yet and I'd sure like to have the benefit of his greater experience in this matter.
Think about it. The only things that will render a revolver inoperable (short of a breaking a mainspring, something that will pretty much kill ANY handgun) are: 1) binding up the cylinder so it can't rotate, and 2)breaking the trigger-hammer connection. As you may or may not be aware, the only difference in the way DA and SA cylinders rotate on the pin is... nonexistent. They both rotate on a pin. Period. So anything that can block rotation of a SA revolver cylinder can block rotation of a DA revolver cylinder. As for breaking the trigger mechanism, the delicacy of a SA trigger-sear-hammer connection is no better or worse than a DA trigger-hammer-sear connection.
Sorry, but I call bullshit on your Alaska buddy's "revolver wisdom".
Doc: That favorite gunsmith you mention, might he go by the name of WEDDLE? thx
...there is one other problem that sometimes happens..ejector rod back out.... Cure is simple, but sometimes getting the cylinder out is not...especially if you don't have the experience of what is happening...
Bob
Thanks, that's a good point. I had forgotten about that one. It's not a common problem, and easily prevented by judicious application of a bit of Loc-Tite. I've never actually had this one happen to me, but I've seen it happen to others here and there. Mostly attributable to inadequate maintenance.
Actually, SA revolvers fired with heavy loads (Garrett Hammerheads, Buffalo Bore, or loads along the lines recommended by John Linebaugh and Paco Kelly) are very prone to unpredictable cylinder lockup. This is due to the cylinder pin pulling out in recoil. Anyone who's used a Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk with Linebaugh-level loads will have experienced this, unless you've only fired a handful or so. The bad part is that once it starts to back out with recoil, it gets worse quickly. And you're unlikely to know it's happening until your revolver locks up tight.
The solution is a Belt Mountain cylinder pin, which has a set-screw you can lock it in with. Unfortunately, if you don't have a Belt Mountain cylinder pin in your BH or SBH, you won't know that the pin is going to back out on you until it does exactly that. If you're attempting to defend yourself against a bear at that point, you're gonna be SOL because when it locks up it will lock up the cylinder bad enough you'll need tools to get it loose again.
Most of the dilettantes who carry big SA handguns stoked with heavy loads won't tell you about this problem because they haven't shot enough heavy loads in their guns to know about it.
Years ago Wilson sold a spring kit that included a special heavy duty spring for the cylinder pin release or whatever it's called. I've never had a problem but I must admit I keep my loads in the 1200 FPS range. 1200 FPS is all I can handle in my 5 1/2" SBH. Maybe my spring wouldn't be strong enough to stop the cylinder pin from backing out if I was using the loads your talking about.
Tim, I learned about this problem about 8-10 years ago, when I caught a bad case of gottahaveititis... I just had to have a Freedom Arms revolver in 500 Linebaugh. Can't remember the model number, I never actually bought it.
What I did was follow Linebaugh's advice and bought a Ruger SA Bisley, and loaded it up to "magnum" 45 Colt levels as recommended by Linebaugh on his website. He said if I could learn to fire that gun and load accurately and reliably, I'd be able to manage his 500 Linebaugh, but if my wrist gave up, I wouldn't have invested a lot of money in a gun I couldn't shoot. So I bought the Bisley and proceeded to shoot the daylights out with it. I was shooting 325 gr bullets over a max load of H110 for velocities in the 1350 fps range (my chronographed velocities, not Linebaugh's published numbers). I shot the cylinder pin loose within two weeks and had to buy a Belt Mountain pin to keep the gun working. It's functioned fine ever since. In fact, it shoots so well I never got around to buying that 500 Linebaugh from Freedom Arms.
I had the same problem develop in a Ruger Vaquero 4" that I wanted to carry with Garrett Hammerheads in it. IIRC, they were 240 gr bullets at about 1300 fps out of that gun, too. Shot it loose inside of a month. Belt Mountain fixed that one, too.
My concern is some nimrod buying a SBH and loading it with Hammerheads and thinking he's got a Sherman tank on his hip. It'll work just fine until the day it locks up, then God help him.
For any of these heavy-breathers, if you plan to carry it to save your life in a crisis it's mandatory to install the Belt Mountain pin, IMHO.
Could be, jwp. I haven't looked seriously at FA revolvers in quite a long while.
And it was a long while ago, somewheres around 2001. Perhaps it was a 475 Linebaugh. But Freedom Arms made it, it was reviewed in Gun Tests Magazine, and I developed a serious jones for one.
The point I was making was that before laying out the coin to buy one or to have him make me a custom model in that caliber, John Linebaugh advised me to find out if I could handle that level of recoil and blast in a relatively inexpensive handgun. Hence the start of what turned into a 5-year experiment in heavy 45 Colt handgunning.
I agree with you advice about working into a heavy kicker, for sure and for certain. FA does make one in 475L. The rim is too large on the 500L for the FA platform. The 500 WE, 500 JRH and the 500AE work in the FA and are .500 instead of .510 as is the 500L
I agree with you advice about working into a heavy kicker, for sure and for certain. FA does make one in 475L. The rim is too large on the 500L for the FA platform. The 500 WE, 500 JRH and the 500AE work in the FA and are .500 instead of .510 as is the 500L
That's right, I remember reading that now. That's what made me ask John Linebaugh about his 500L guns; I figured if the 475 was great, the 500 would be greater, right? Thank goodness JL was/is such a nice guy, and sensible to boot. I really enjoyed my 5-year sojourn into heavy 45 Colt handgunning, but in the end realized I don't need that kind of power for what I hunt with handguns. I'm now much more comfortable with more modest loads in my much more packable revolvers. But I learned a lot of good stuff during those days.
John Burns posted over at the Fire about being at Ross Seyfried's ranch while Brian Enos was visiting. Ross invited Brian to shoot one of his new five-shooter Bisley cannon conversions. Benos shot a couple of rounds through it (he was one of the top 3-4 in the world at the time with a revolver). He handed it back to Ross and said, "That's a great way to [bleep] up 20yrs worth of trigger control".
John Burns posted over at the Fire about being at Ross Seyfried's ranch while Brian Enos was visiting. Ross invited Brian to shoot one of his new five-shooter Bisley cannon conversions. Benos shot a couple of rounds through it (he was one of the top 3-4 in the world at the time with a revolver). He handed it back to Ross and said, "That's a great way to [bleep] up 20yrs worth of trigger control".
Uh-huh. I resemble that remark!!! Enos was one of the best at that time, and IIRC he still shoots very well indeed in IPSC meets.
But seriously, learning trigger control on a hand-cannon is pretty much like on a magnum rifle, both of which will get fugged up every time you shoot trap or sporting clays, etc, etc.. You can't let it equate to your other firearms, and you've got to learn different touch for the different classes of firearms.
Thanks Doc. I just did a search, heck they are in my neck of the woods. Might have to get a hold of them. I don't run barn burners but extra protection is always good.
Cool, Tim. Belt Mountain makes a good product. You won't be sorry for switching out your stock Ruger cylinder pins for theirs.
Remember Keith's No. 5 revolver? He had it built to his specs based on his experiences in developing "heavy" 44 Special loads... now known as 44 Magnum loads. The cylinder pin on that one had a setscrew-type lock on it, which just goes to show that this problem is not new.
If you're going to use the set-screw feature on the Belt Mountain base pins you might want to file a small flat onto the underside of the barrel to give the set-screw more surface area to contact.
I've replaced the base pins on all my Ruger's with Belt Mountain units and, even when not using the set-screw, the fit is tighter than the factory part and noticeably reduces cylinder side-play.
Received this from a friend who hunts Alaska a lot... I could not attach the pics that came with it however...
Bob
Good Morning,
Let me tell you I am very happy to be here to tell this story.
My friend Steve Thompson and I were duck hunting on Saturday (10/08/11) in Portage Valley (Alaska) and we were attacked by a brown bear. We are both OK but we killed the brown bear within 10 feet of our duck boat blind. This is one of those stories where you are just glad to be alive to tell it. I have lived and worked in Alaska for over 25 years and been around bears but never thought I would encounter one in my blind while duck hunting. I have provided a brief description of what happened below.
We had a small bull moose run about 10 feet behind our duck boat blind. About 30 seconds later, we heard some grass rustling and thought it was another moose, but then we see a brown bear following the trail of the moose. When the bear gets about 20 feet from our blind he looks up and sees us and heads right toward the front of the blind where I am sitting. I fired 3 rounds (3" #4 steel shot) into the bear at point blank range. My friend says I fired my last round when the bear was 2 feet away. He goes on to say that my head and the bears head were 2 feet apart at one point. After firing my third round, I dove away from the bear and out of the blind and my friend Steve fires 3 rounds (3.5" #4 steel shot) into his head that sends the bear to the front of the boat on the ground about 10 feet away. Steve reloads as the bear is doing the death spin. He puts 3 more rounds into the bear. I get up, reload, and fire 3 more rounds into the bear. The bear isn't moving at this point in time.
Neither of us was hurt (not a scratch). We were just scared [bleep]. We had 2 dogs with us. The older dog (Mynx) was out of the blind with hackles up about 20 feet away from the bear. The young (5 months) dog (Lulu) was hidden under one of the chairs in the boat, She was shaking and wouldn't come out for awhile. On a side note, we got one duck (a gadwall).
I have attached a few photos. You will see our boat blind is destroyed. That was from me diving out one side of the blind and the bear coming in the other. There is also a picture of blood on the blind to show how close the bear was when he got shot. We think the bear was a 7+ foot brown bear.
As a department employee, I thought I should send this to some select staff and the staff I work with. I did complete a defense of life and property report and turned in the completed report and the skinned bear to ADF&G staff here in Anchorage.
Regards,
Tim __________ Tim Baker FIshery Research Biologist Bristol Bay Salmon Program ADF&G-Commercial Fisheries Phone: (907) 267-2240 Email: [email protected]
If you're going to use the set-screw feature on the Belt Mountain base pins you might want to file a small flat onto the underside of the barrel to give the set-screw more surface area to contact.
I've replaced the base pins on all my Ruger's with Belt Mountain units and, even when not using the set-screw, the fit is tighter than the factory part and noticeably reduces cylinder side-play.
Thanks for posting that, O45. IIRC, Belt Mountain suggests you fabricate a flat or detent on the bottom of the barrel for the setscrew to rest in. I used a metal punch and then a 1/8" drill to make a small indentation on the bottom of the barrels of my revolvers.
[quote=derby_dude] one of the silliest things I've ever seen was way up the Pole Creek drainage in Idaho, two hombres elk hunting with big ass magnum rifles and tied down super blackhawks.
The silly thing is that there are no Griz up Pole Cr. Idaho. Just Blacks, Mtn. Lion, and wolf. I have archery hunted in that general area numerous with no firearm.
[quote=derby_dude] one of the silliest things I've ever seen was way up the Pole Creek drainage in Idaho, two hombres elk hunting with big ass magnum rifles and tied down super blackhawks.
The silly thing is that there are no Griz up Pole Cr. Idaho. Just Blacks, Mtn. Lion, and wolf. I have archery hunted in that general area numerous with no firearm.
That's not my quote. I never said it. I've never been there. DD
I don't think i would ever underestimate a brown bear. A friend of mine was hunting in alaska a few years ago and tells a story about a guy with the shakes and blood covered at the bar at the base station he was at. The guy had been hunting bear and came accross a bunch of cane along the river where there were some carcasses. Bear came out standing up, and took a full back of .338winmags in the chest. one of the rounds blew off the bears nose squirting blood all over the guy who was backing up as he was firing. This was at point blank range. The guide stopped it with two rounds of .375 at point blank
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