OK, all things being equal, say a .44 mag with 240 grain bullets at the same velocity which do you find more important? Penetration from a Keith style bullet or expansion from a JHP (say an xtp. Disclaimer, this would be used on whitetails nothing bigger.

All things being equal, penetration allows leakage from 2 holes instead of one, which is always a good thing.

This is the outfit I would use for a .44 mag if you reload. Scroll down to the .44 mag bullet it's a 240 grain soft point. Should have good expansion and penetration. When I started loading my .44 mag I will use the 240 grain soft point.

I did order their 230 grain FMJ for my .45 Auto although I've not had a chance to use them yet.

I don't know what it is with hollow points and big chucks of lead for the .44 mag, the soft point worked for years now the soft point isn't good enough. Plenty of dead animals out there everything from deer to Grizzlies and everything in between.

I lean more to the two hole thought....

I have examples of hundreds of animals which have generated my very strong opinions on this. Almost all have been with black bears, but many have been deer, African antelopes, cow elk, oh yeah,..... probably 50 plus wild hogs too.

Using the 240 grain XTP, Garrett 310grain, or 240grain hard cast TC. from a 4" 44 mag Smith and Wesson Mountain gun for 90% of these animals.

All of these bullets killed every single animal shot regardless of size. All of them performed well, with more then acceptable lethal effects. There has been a significant difference between them however.

The hard cast bullets regardless of bullet weight or the animals shot with them all worked about the same. I would give the edge to the lighter truncated cone 240 because it was much higher velocity then the 310 grain load. If both penetrate through and exit the additional weight of the 310 adds nothing to the lethal force. it would work better on something a person might shoot that was bigger then a cow elk cow kudu, or ??? it would be a better choice on the extreme limits of the 44 mags potential on the biggest game. On game up to 400 lbs the additional weight did nothing as the bullets 310 or 240 Hard cast exited all nearly every time.

The XTP bullets did not exit all the time. On smaller game of 200 lbs or so they would get through very frequently, but there was the occasional under the hide, or near the opposite side. on the much bigger game they were nearly always on the opposite side of the animal in the muscle or skin, and to my recollection always at least to the ribs on the opposite side.

Because the hollow points would make it clear through the chest with a very large diameter damage path the damage was extensive. I like exits and blood trails as a very high priority. However the great majority of deer size game and almost all the bears would not go more then 100 yards with the XTPs. There were the odd animals shot that caused a stress to find in thick brush but by and large the XTP shot animals were staggered, and or simply crumpled at the shot and just dropped and kicked. I cannot recall any instance were there was a question to the animal being hit. The impacts were frequently obvious and devastating.

With the hard cast bullets, the typical reaction was much different most of the time. At the shot the animal would bolt away without knowing whether it was hit or not. I've had hunters with me that after the shot would whip their head around and say, "did I miss" and I would reply, no..... the blood was pumping out big time. The trail would be easy to follow and we could usually walk to the dead animal in under 100 yards.

Now, that explains the best of the hard cast situation with the problem of almost no impact reaction on a pure broadside chest shot. There were lots .... LOTS of animals shot that we could not tell if they were hit or not, and left minimal blood trails and no good way of tracking them. Many times those Hard cast bullets with a bore diameter entry and exit would not bleed right away, and they would run 75-100 yards easily before dropping any trackable blood. Then from there we could track them to where they were dead.

My opinions from hundreds of animals shot with both kinds of bullets within this target animal size range is very strong. The premium HPs kill and fold game faster. Maybe 30% faster, or put another way 30% closer to point of impact for a round educated "guess" at the distance.

Maybe 30% seems like its not enough to consider, but for me it could be the difference between walking up on the animal dead, or deciding to turn around and look in another area. Or worse walking away and giving up at that point.

There have been really devastating crumpling shots with Hard cast bullets and some animals that died within sight of us. but that was the exception. Where the HP bullets it was the norm. If I were to have only seen 20-30 of the best impacts and recoveries from the Hard cast bullets I would probably never shoot another HP again. I could say the same thing this way, If I only experienced the 20-30 worst HP recoveries I would probably never use them again.

The difference is that when you see 100's of animals shot the differences and more consistent performance and expectations start forming. Another example was shooting a bear in a foot snare at 30 feet. With a hard cast bullet that bear would charge you full on head down with everything it has until the cable ran out and jerked it off its feet. At that point it was done and within a few moments was dead. With a 240 grain Hollow point, at the shot the bear rolled and bit at the wound and could not care less that you were there, its priority was to focus on the lethal wound it now had.

This was a very impactful part of what formed my opinions. The available aggression and functional ability of a bear after a clean poke through the chest was memorable. I cannot tell you how many times walking in on a snared bear I checked and rechecked my cylinder to be 100% positive I have a HP bullet not a cast bullet. There were too many instances of having the bear launch at full speed right at us after the shot. There have been a few occasions that the snare was not as tight as possible and they would pull out under that full speed rage filled charge. Thankfully that only happened when they saw us walking in, before the shot and they were headed the other way.

Knowing that the snares could hold them but without being fully locked only happened a few times. It still left us with the very strong desire to crumple them with the shot. Had that snare pulled off on one of the bears that charged after the shot, I would likely have been injured by a bear dead on it's feet, but while it still had enough blood available to get to one of us.

For anything, you have to have ADEQUATE penetration, so penetration is always important. But when you�re talking most ANYTHING .44 mag, penetration shouldn�t really be an issue on Whitetail deer. I�ve seen Whitetails put down with great authority with a 210 grain Winchester Silvertip which is not what anyone would call a �tough� bullet. Any 240 grain JHP from a major manufacturer will be MORE than adequate on Whitetails. I don�t have any personal experience with the .44 magnum on deer, but I have quite a bit on Black Bear, and the .240 JHP was easily the most effective load I�ve ever used on Black Bear. Most times you get full penetration, but not always. But regardless of complete penetration or not, the effect on the bear was quite the same. Immediately on impact you could clearly see all the fight drain out of the bear, and only flight was on the bears mind. Muscle tone that had the bear�s fur standing nearly on end goes nearly flaccid, and the bear clearly registered a very significant, life threatening event; and EVERY TIME, turned to run. The trip was never over 100 yards, and only that far typically when running down hill.

When I used Keith (Lyman 429421) bullets on black bear, the effect was VERY unimpressive. They died, but they didn�t do so in a hurry, and I didn�t see that the Keith bullet in .44 magnum performed even as well as a 158 grain JHP out of a .357 magnum. That�s my observation.

Both maybe?

I'm with KG here. I've never hunted with a .44m but lord if my .357 shooting XTP's will go in and out of a deer I can't see why any reasonable load outta a .44 wouldn't.

Like JJ said, exit wound doesn't equal more blood loss or blood on the ground. Seen many of deer hit thru and thru with foster slugs (I know different but use your imagination) that took 30-50 yards to drop blood. But you take that same deer with a Sabot slug that doesn't exit and it will be blowing blood from the get go. I'll take one big wound over 2 small holes.

JJ... thanks for sharing your impressions over a significantly large number of animals shot with both bullet types. I haven't shot nearly as many animals with handguns as you have, roughly a dozen, or 18 if you include "finishing" shots on previously shot critters.

I have been a lot less impressed with the performance of solid "hard cast" bullets than I thought I would be, based on their press over the past 10-15 years.

I realize I sound like a broken record on this, but the definitions of "hard cast" are highly variable. Elmer Keith hunted with bullets he considered quite hard compared to other lead bullets of the day, but if you read his books you find that his bullets were alloys that would give a BHN of 12-14. Compare that to the "hard cast" bullets of today from Lasercast, CBP, etc, which typically have a BHN of 20-24.

In my early days with hard cast bullets found I could drive a 45 Colt 260 gr WFN bullet with a BHN of 20 thru a seasoned maple log 12-14" thick, and more than 5 feet through the carcass of a freshly slaughtered horse. But when I shot that bullet through the chest of a whitetail deer, that deer would typically run a couple hundred yards before collapsing, unless I spined the deer. A good JHP bullet, though, would typically pass right through, do a lot more damage internally, and drop the deer much quicker. Same thing appears to be true with soft lead muzzleloader bullets, and also with hollowpoint cast bullets, which I'm just starting to play with this year. That's an important factor to consider when you're hunting on a small piece of land and you can't cross fencelines to retrieve an animal you've shot.

I know jwp will argue against this, as he's had real good success with hard cast bullets on BIG game many times, but I'm convinced an expanding bullet with decent penetration is better than a non-expanding bullet with phenomenal penetration.

Doc - As long as we're not talking BIG game, you're right; JHP is the way to go. JWP contends that the WFN bullets will create much larger than caliber wounds, and I�ll have to take his word on that as I�ve never used a WFN on anything other than paper. The advantage of the WFN is that you can have a �one load� for everything from a forked horn deer, up to an overweight moose. And for those who hunt in areas where there truly are BIG critters, such a load makes a whole lot of sense. In the states that have big bears, you�re in their zone whether you�re hunting big critters or not, so a WFN load for everything makes a lot of sense. One other real advantage that shouldn�t be discounted with the WFN loads is cost. If you own the mold, then you can create hunting loads for about the same cost as your practice rounds; always using the same bullet. That�s nice!

For me, I live in Arkansas and the largest thing we have is Elk; but those tags are as tough to get as winning the lottery. So that leaves Whitetails and Black Bear as pretty much the biggest thing I�m ever likely to encounter. And for that, ANY 200 grain or heavier JHP from a major factory maker will do anything I ever need to get done in a .44 mag. Actually, I have a former neighbor who swears by the 180 grain XTP which he's used with success on both Black Bear and Whitetails.

If I was going to shoot a Bison or Moose I would absolutely use a Garrett 310 hardcast bullet. But not for smaller big game. I have visited with Randy on countless occasions and had this conversation in every detail. He agreed with my first hand observations, it's why I was using his ammo in the first place He knew my work and wanted data collected for his reference. There was never any question that this was accurate and repeatable performance. Randy himself knew this without question.

The .44 mag alone with just about anything that fits through the barrel will kill 100-400 pound big game animal. The heavy hardcast ammo was to get the .44 mag to the next level, which it does with flawless perfection. For those bison, bull elk, moose or elephant hunters it's the best game in town.

Heck, I have a Sig P220, If I were going to load this for some bigger then intended critter I would be using a Hardcast flat nose bullet not a HP. The entire philosophical view is that the Hardcast bullet can get you to the next level of performance when the penetration is insufficient with a HP.

However when the penetration is acceptable with a HP then it trumps a solid. The confusion over all this comes from a fella hearing or reading that the .44 mag is so powerful it can kill a bison with the 310grain hardcast bullet. It leaves the impression that it's the most powerful ammo possible.

It's a truthful statement that its the best penetrator, but maybe not the most disruptive internally. Put another way, and I have seen this 100 times.

Shoot a smaller antelope species through the chest with a 375HH mag which has nearly 5000 FPE with any good quality hunting bullet or a solid,

Then shoot one in the same way with a .270 or even a 25/06 using a Soft point bullet like a Nosler Ballistic tip, These two rifles have roughly half the ME. Whats the reaction when the animal is hit?

The antelope hit with the 375HH will in most cases vanish into the bush and be recovered maybe 50-80 meters away. The one shot with the 25/06 will in most cases fold stagger and fall within sight. Yet its only half the power!

Choose the proper projectile for the application, Hard cast is far and away better on the biggest game, or to increase the penetration capability of a less then optimal gun for the job. When the power potential is there for you, then the Premium HP bullets will bring you very satisfying results!

Kevin: I think we're in agreement here. Here's a photo of a couple of my own cast bullets:




The bullet on the left is a 300 gr WFN-type bullet, cast from a Lee mould. Cast out of "sweetened" alloy and dropped from the mould into cold water, this bullet has a BHN of about 22-24. Propelled out of a Bisley .45 at 1300 fps, it is a formidable load.

The bullet on the right started out looking exactly like the bullet on the left. It was recovered from a water tank after I shot it through a seasoned maple log 13-14" thick. Now, that is penetration. The only other bullet of this type I have ever recovered was shot into the front end of a smallish draft horse that had just been killed by my friend's grandfather, who ran a rendering yard in rural Wisconsin. The bullet looks pretty much like the one you see on the right, but in this case it had penetrated from the brisket through to the left haunch and was found under the offside hide.

I have shot 3 whitetail deer with this bullet, never recovered one of them. Exit wounds were roughly 2-3" in diameter, and the insides were jelly. All 3 deer ran over 100 yards despite having no lungs left in their chests, and one of them had only a single shoulder to run on.

Compare to this bullet:



This is a Corbon 115 gr JHP recovered under the skin of a whitetail shot at a distance of about 10 feet. The bullet traversed the chest, turned everything inside into jelly, and did not exit. The deer dropped DRT. In fact, every deer I've ever shot with a JHP pistol bullet, only about a dozen in total, dropped DRT.

Does this prove that JHP's are better? Well, on whitetails and other medium-sized game, I think it causes me to lean in that direction.

But I love my cast bullets, because they're cheap, and I have fun casting them. I'm currently working with a new mould/bullet which drops 270 gr WFN hollowpoint bullets out of an LBT mould. I'll try to take some pics later and post them. What I like about this bullet so far is that it gives me much of the best features of BOTH the WFN bullet and the JHP bullet. I'm still working on the penetration/expansion studies, and time is precious so the work is going slow... but suffice to say I think I'm close to the Holy Grail of 45 Colt bullets here, with a 270 gr bullet that will expand and absolutely destroy internal organs like a JHP, yet penetrate deeply like a WFN. I need to get the match between alloy hardness and impact velocity right, but I'm narrowing it down and should have it by Spring.

ok, so it appears for whitetails it is a JHP. Thanks guys this has been a fun read.

OK...

This is a pic of my new project bullet... an LBT WFN bullet adapted by Erik at hollowpointbullets.com with his unique design. Sorry for the lousy quality of the cellphone pic.



The HP cavity is conical, about 1/2" deep. The HP cavity displaces about 30 gr of lead, so the nominal 300 gr mould throws 270 gr HP bullets. Accuracy potential is, so far, very good. Which means that the HP cavities in Erik's design are concentric. At this point I'm working with two loads, one at about 920 fps, and the other at about 1150 fps, trying to find the right alloy for accuracy plus expansion potential at that velocity. I've got a [bleep] of gallon milk jugs saved up for the expansion tests. Probably won't get around to doing those tests until February, though... gotta lotta hunting to do right now, so ammo and load development is on a backburner for a bit yet.

Doc,

Looks like you�re having a lot of cast bullet fun. I�ve played with cast hollow points and they can be really great because you can control the metallurgy to match your velocity range and intended purposes. It�s kinda like making dual-metal �soft points� by using two grades of lead in the same mold. I�ve used almost pure lead Hollow Points out of a .357 on Coyotes and OMG were they spectacular. I love the look of your hollow point bullets. The only ones I have are made from Keith style bullets, but if you get the metallurgy right, they�re very impressive bullets indeed. I really wish there were more inexpensive factory hollow point molds. Fortunately I have a friend who makes custom bullet molds, and he always treats me right if I show up with an ice cold 6 pack of Avery�s IPA.

Yes, I too mourn the loss of Lee and Lyman factory HP moulds... even used, they're really expensive. I had a HP mould for Keith-style 357 SWC, and foolishly traded it off as part of a gun deal. Raccoons and chucks literally 'sploded when hit with those bullets! Never shot a yote with one, though...

Oh that's too funny, that's EXACTLY how I lost both of mine...ha,ha,ha. I'll never make that mistake again. Two things I never trade off anymore are hollow point bullet molds, and good gunleather.

Doc, those look sic! Where can I get some? Lol. I would also like something similar in a 180 or so for my .40 S&W.

check out this listing on hollowpointmold.com:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/forsale/sale-pictures/?item=188

That's a Lee 2-cavity mould using Erik's bar conversion, casts a 175 gr 10mm/40 cal bullet. Should meet your needs nicely.

Doc, please post your results when you get around to testing the new 10mm hard cast HP bullet. Looks to be a great 10mm hunting bullet! Should works great in my Glock 20 that I normally carry while bow hunting in NM & CO.
I know they claim you can't use cast bullets in Glocks, but I've been shooting "hard" cast LBT bullets in mine for over 15 years with no problems whatsoever.
But I normally pack it with 200gr XTP's going 1350 fps when bow hunting the Rockys

I too am a huge Elmer Keith fan, and have been using his style of cast bullets in my 44mags & 45colt's for years.
In my 44 mag revolvers, I'm now using a .44 cal .260gr LBT bullet with 10 grains of unique at around 1100 fps. It's very accurate & I've found it has plenty of Penatraition on deer, feral hogs, & Mesquite limbs, which I often use for Penatration testing.
I load the same type LBT 45 cal 260gr hard cast in all my revolvers that are chambered in 45 colt at similar velocitys. Again, providing great Penatration & big exit wounds.

Deer & feral hogs may run 50 to 100 yards after a solid hit with this type of loads, but I'll take the huge exit wound & two holes to leak blood out of any day!
Sure is nice if you have to track them down.

For a serious load, I use a 300gr LBT WFN in the .44mag at 1350fps using WW 296 in my Custom Rugers & a 325gr LBT WFN in my Rugers only also at about 1350fps. Both loads will Penatrate 25 to 30 inches of 2 X 4's

JJ, that's one of the most informative posts I've read here. Not many can match your experience when it comes to this topic, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I'm just getting into handgun hunting so I found what you had to say most interesting.

Of course I won't be surprised if one of the hard cast cult comes along and refutes everything you said by posting a photo of a deer with a big hole in it's heart.

Use a S&W 500 Magnum and get the best of both worlds whether it expands or not.

Been my experience with 45's, 50's, 20 gauges and 12 gauges.

Of course ranges and impact speed matters when we expect a grenade and get a semi-round nose....

I concur completely on range mattering, but I missed what you meant by expecting a grenade and get a semi-round nose.

Or a .480 Ruger, and have less recoil

The S&W 500 is waaaay overrated on felt recoil. There are tales of horror on the internet about the devastating recoil of the S&W 500, and we all know if it's on da innanet it's gotta be true.

In reality, a heavy bullet loaded hot in a .44 Magnum has a much sharper felt recoil than my 6.5" barreled S&W 500 Magnum. Heck, even factory 240 grain loads in the .44 Magnum have more felt recoil to me than 500 grain factory loads shot from my 500 Magnum.

Everybody feels recoil differently. I've owned 3 500 smiths, multiple 44 mags and a host of other large bore revolvers. I would take a hot 44 mag or 45 colt any day over the 500 smith in terms of felt recoil to me.

Well, it might be a while getting those results posted, as I'm working with a .45 caliber HP bullet, not a 10mm!!


But I have no doubt that the 10mm/40 cal bullet I posted the link to will be a devastating hunting bullet. I've had a notion to build a hunting pistol on an EAA/Tanfoglio Witness platform for years, but just haven't got around to it. I really, really like the ballistics of the 10mm, and if one had a big pistol like that with a good scope, you'd have possibly the ultimate hunting handgun for anything from up-close-pig-stickin' to cornfield-drive running deer shots.

Now that you've got me thinking about it again, I may have to see what I can do about reviving that project!

Magnum, my only issue with the .500 smith is that it's just huge. Some point after a super redhawk it just became something else. I guess if I was over 7' feet or so. Lol. I just think the whole X frame cylinder etc stopped being a handgun when a two point sling is added from the factory. You might as well have a carbine of some sort. In factory guns, if I "want" power, the Casull or stout .45lc is plenty while still being "handgun size".

Doc, I may have to get that mold. I don't even have a 10mm yet. But there's nothing wrong with getting ready. Lol. In the meantime the .40 could try some.

The "perfect" huntin bullet would always hit where you wanted it AND expend all of it's energy 1" outside the far side hide!
No matter what range!

Anything more is a waste of energy and meat.

That said it always comes back to one:
.22 long rifle
Critters take a step at most and fall dead.

Now you're talking.

It is big...no way of getting around that. But I don't have the short butt-stock rifle they call the 460 XVR with a 14" barrel and a two-point sling to match; that is a hand-rifle, on the same order that Thompson Contenders and Encores are hand-rifles and not handguns in the traditional sense. My revolver has no sling swivel attached to it and it only has a 6.5" barrel. Yeah, it's big, but it's still a handgun, not a hand-rifle. I'm 6'2", 240 lbs and I don't feel the handgun is too big for me to carry or shoot.

A JSP, on the left, at 1,000 fps impact speed on dry print. I did this since I finished off a critter at close range with the same bullet (not recovered) and noticed that magical expanding bullets don't always work like they do in the ads.

Or the wonderful Hornady XTP.


The bullet on the left is a 1/2 wheelweight, 1/2 pure lead softnose; both hit at 950 fps, or about the speed at 50 yards started out at 1,000-1,050 fps..

Hawk1... you do know that HP bullets expand primarily due to buildup of fluid pressure in the nose cavity, right? And as such firing them into non-fluid mediums like dry newsprint will result in failure to expand more often than not, right?

Penetration.


Travis

^, what doc said+1.

Speaking in terms of hunting whitetail deer with a 44 magnum handgun; grab a 50 round box of Black Hills 240 grain JHP, which are loaded with the XTP @ 1260fps, and you should see outstanding accuracy and dependable performance straight out the box. If you have any issue killing whitetail deer, it will be due to shot placement and not bullet performance. My two cents, save the big end cast bullets for larger game, unless you need one load to cover medium and large game at the same time. Nothing wrong with Keith loads, but they're not as stout as the big loads for big stuff, and I seriously doubt you'd kill deer any more reliably than with the XTP.

Best

Kind of, they primarily rely on impact (think FTX, the same essential bullet as the XTP with a "dry" soft plastic tip) and a soft alloy doesn't even need a hollow point or fluid pressure.

I agree though, that harder mediums like wood, bone and dry print isn't very good for expanders.

The same two bullets didn't appear to expand for me on deer as well, but not having recovered them, I didn't know for certain.

Note the JSP didn't seem to expand, either, where there is no place for fluid pressure.

Most hollow point handgun bullets are pure lead cores with skived, thinly jacketed compromised (pre-weakened) tips. They are designed as light as possible because even the thinnest gilding metal is a real bitch to make peel at handgun impact speeds. That metal is always harder than lead. The bonded/plated ones are a tad softer than gilding metal.

Even in non-forgiving mediums (mediums that supply enough force to give a jacket no place to go), a soft enough alloy doesn't care, where it matters to a jacketed bullet, be it JSP or hollow point.

Since handguns lack the advantages of high powered rifles (e.g., hydrostatic shock induced wound cavity and enough power for both expansion and penetration with the use of premium bullets), you really have to like the deep penetration philosophy for handguns, relying on sectional density and a destructive meplat for maximum tissue destruction and blood loss.

Here's a homemade softnosed sabot slug used on a deer, sans any fluid to make it open.


It would open easier, at a lower speed, if hollowpointed and skived, again, no fluid involved, just impact.

In your last picture are you saying that slug came out of a deer w/o liquid?
If so was it dry smoked deer jerky?

No, its a soft-nose, not a hollowpoint, which allegedly need liquid mediums to work right.

The point I'm trying to make is that expansion relies primarily on impact......but I appreciate your smart-assedness!

Ok. That's funny.

Here's another pic. Dry paper, no liquid. The front end of the one on the left is all pure lead with a measured BHN of 4.

Does this hollow point need fluid?

What's up with these? These need liquid too?

Seen velocity windows listed for expansion, never seen "medium liquid content" listed.....

Course, I do agree with DD, and some type of wedge initiating expansion at impact, though damned if it has to be some type of fluid...

I'd imagine you could impact a bone dry 550 steel plate to demonstrate maximum expansion, but neither that nor shooting through dry newsprint would duplicate terminal performance of shooting through a live whitetail deer.

There are metric tons of empirical data proving the effectiveness on a score of 44 magnum projectiles on whitetail deer, this includes jacketed bullets. The XTP has quite a stellar track record for such.

Best

As soon as they are fired into a human or animal the liquid will be there. Of course when you fire into a solid object like tightly stacked paper the bullets will expand some as the bullet gives way to the solid object. If you've ever seen bullets fired into a bullet resistant vest, (hollow points and some full metal jacket) act almost the same. Both flatten some but there is no expansion as was designed when built to shoot at people or animals.
The "liquid" is needed for the bullet to expand as designed with all else being equal. Such as velocity, bullet weight, foot pounds etc.

I agree, Gary. I don't want the idea of mediums to convolute the fact that bullets are designed to expand with impact windows.

That stellar track record didn't include the two deer I used them (XTP's) on, nor the Hornady SST slug that didn't open up on a deer, the Nosler PT Gold that only expanded two of its skived 6 petals, nor the 45cal. Sierra JSP's that didn't even leave bore diameter holes.
The deer certainly were not AR550 or dry newspaper or water jugs.

I'm not saying XYZ bullets suck, don't work and aren't great;

I'm saying poking something at 90 yards isn't the same as poking something at 20, as far as expanding bullets are concerned and starting bullets at 950 fps isn't the same as 1,400 fps..

YMMV

The hollow point has to have something to wedge into the cavity. Anything solid enough to deter entry obviously won't provide that, hence it becomes like the FMJ.

A PowerBall would go splat....without liquid.

None fired into wood, steel or bone (or hit with a hammer) are obviously going to look like they hit "meat"....

There are a lot variables in the real world that effect expanding bullet performance - far too often it's a crap shoot. These original Winchester Black Talons (230 gr .45 ACP) ALWAYS expand in ballistic gelatin but not so predictably on flesh and bone. This one got a lung, liver and plenty of guts on a little 5-pointer and penetrated well over 2 feet.

Reminds me of Solomon's quote: The mind of man plans his way but time & chance overtake them all.

Doesn't seem to be any set rules for bullet performance on game from a handgun. My preference is currently XTP's however.

I came into the Handgun forum to post a question about the 454 Casull, when I found this thread. It is relevant to the hunting I am planning to do with the Casull.
I used to shoot a Dan Wesson .44 mag, got bored and sold it. Wish I had that one back. Got the itch again a year or two ago, and finally had to scratch it with a FA 454. I am currently loading it down to .44 mag levels, and the full strength loads are more than I can shoot accurately at this point.
So when I bought the .44 I was planning to move to Alaska. After much research I decided on the 325 gr. WFN GC hard cast bullets. I ended up staying here in Colorado, and shot a bear with that load. He was 500 lbs+, and made B&C. I shot him at a distance of 10 paces as he was facing me. I placed two shots at the point of his right shoulder, and later found both bullets under the hide at the rear of the left hind quarter. Those bullets penetrated around 4' of bear.
I plan to hunt elk with the Casull next year, and am again debating an expanding bullet, 300 gr XTP Magnum, or the 335 gr WFN GC hardcast. Don't know if I am pistolero enough to master full house 454 loads, so may just be shooting .44 equivalent again.
I appreciate the input from you guys that have so much experience with big game and big handguns.

There you go, agreeing with me again. Stop it, willya?


The biggest problems I see with newbie handgun hunters is their desire to find a single bullet that will fit all possible applications. The closest you're likely to find to a one-bullet-for-all-applications solution is a JHP, provided you're launching it at speeds that will give you an impact velocity in the HP's expansion range.

The more I've shot and hunted with handguns, the more I've come to the conclusion that the best all-round bullet for any caliber/chambering is likely not a JHP, but a cast HP, or possibly a solid... but in either case, the alloy must be relatively soft. The commercial cast bullets out there with BHN's of 24 and higher are mostly garbage... they lead the bore of their guns terribly, and they perform poorly on game. I've gone to relatively soft alloys for 10+ years now and I'll never go back to "hardcast".

Thanks for posting pics of your bullets. Good to see real results now and again. One cannot presume a bullet performed as expected just because the animal died.

I think JJHack's post in the earlies of this thread is a very good and well-reasoned discussion of a real hunter's real findings over a series of a LOT of animals.

Yeah Doc. Another plus with using soft alloys is that you don't need to load the gun to the gills and be under 50 yard impact to get them to work every time.

What's a LOT of animals?

I've used solids for the majority of deer I've taken in my life, I confess none were up in a tree or in a trap/snare, quite a few running. Seen even more shot with them, two more less than a week ago.

The last decade has been using essentially expanding pistol bullets of various makes, mostly from shotguns, but I also poke a few deer and hogs with a handgun.

Ask most shotgun hunters what kills better, an expanding pistol bullet with speed or a larger frontal area solid at slower speeds and you might be surprised what they find kills quicker....something to think about (grins).

And this is precisely what keeps me away from jacketed expanding bullets. They work like gangbusters one day, and fail to open the next, thereby doing a poor imitation of a good flat-nosed non-expanding bullet. I demand reasonable consistency.

Right. I've killed a goodly number of deer with dead-soft Foster type 12 ga slugs, they kill VERY well. I've also killed and seen killed a goodly number with dead-soft 50 and 54 cal muzzleloader balls, and they kill VERY well. When I finally switched to an inline muzzleloader, I went with Powerbelt bullets, which are copper-clad dead-soft lead bullets, and guess what? They kill VERY well, too.

Hmmm. I wonder what the common denominator might be?

IM betting on punching large holes in vital organs and massive blood loss myself, and I doubt it matters all that much if the projectile started out at 3000fps or 1200 fps as long as it passed thru and destroyed those vital organs and left a big jagged hole in its path.

Ive used a 80 lb bow with 560 grain arrows and 3 blade broad heads, a 257 Roberts, a 257 wby,a 270 win,a 300 wby , a 375 H&H, a 45/70 and a 62 caliber muzzle loader,and a dozen other weapons the only thing that was in common was shot placement and the results, they all left a big bloody hole,along the projectiles path thru the games body, and destroyed internal organs

Sorry it took me so long to read this post... you are a sensible man, sir.

cobrad

Load the regular XTP in 454 brass with 2400 and get 44 mag velocities with one handed results..Very tame load in a 454..I think(don't quote me from memory) 23 grains of 2400 in Casull brass, gave me right at 1300 fps in my 6.5" 454 Casull.

The XTP mag is a tough bullet and needs velocity to work right.The regular XTP is a great bullet even in the 1500 fps range.

Jayco

A hard cast with a meplat of 78% of bullet diameter at 950 FPS made this exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull elk I am holding a loaded 300 win mag for size comparison




The meplat of a hard cast is the key to the wound channel. I fail to see how a JHP would have been more effective

Well jwp,probably because JJ has a zillion times the experience than either one of us do........Hard to ignore his experiences with both,especially Randy Garretts loads.....

I use both myself and I agree there is more of an immediate effect from jacketed but dead is dead.

Jayco

I am happy to get that type of performance every time and I will continue to use the wide meplat hard cast

Some don't get those results with cast bullets and that's why alot of people despise them.I have never had an exit like the one you posted with cast,even with a Meplat as large as you can get and stuff into a 45-70 from Beartooth bullets and the rifle still function and the BFR limits size do it tight chambers..Nothing over .460 they say although .460 works fine.

There usually a hole in and a hole out but nothing like the picture you posted.I am assuming yours are home grown,not commercial cast bullets like Beartooth or Cast Performance.

Jayco

It seems that you missed where I stated that the meplat size and shape is the key to getting large wound channels. I know what works and that is what I use and I always get large wound channels. The original "Keith" semi wadcutter had a relatively small meplat and produced a rather small wound channel. Today we have semi wadcutters that have very wide meplats and they are still being called a "Keith" which they are not and that is confusing too many. The same applies to the term "LBT". The nose profile is also very important as well

I consistently get large wound channels and the animals go down very quickly.


Many of Beartooth's bullets are made with true "LBT" molds and are excellent the WFN style leaves the largest wound channel. I also like the LFN's

Okay, so you are using them in a .45/70 rifle, which may explain why you aren't getting the results you could. How fast are you pushing them? Anything much over 1,400 fps and you are exceeding the material's ability to maintain integrity.

I don't expanding jacketed bullets because they are inconsistent from day to day. When they work, they work like gangbusters, when they don't, they really don't.

As jwp pointed out, there are good cast bullets and there are bad cast bullets. The problem starts when folks lump them all together and generalize.

I have friends who guide hog hunts, using .44 mag Ruger 77 bolt rifles with suppressors. They shoot 300gr XTP's at under 1100fps, and kill hundreds of hogs. Shots are under 75 yards, sometimes a lot under, and they usually get pass-throughs, even on shoulder shots. On bullets they've recovered, they even see some expansion. I prefer Hard Cast in my suppressed .44 - out of a 14" barrel. Loaded at just under 1100 fps, the Montana Bullet Works 335gr Hard Cast (with a copper gas check) has shot through two hogs for me. Even with no apparent expansion, both of those hogs fell dead on the spot - neck shot. Two weeks ago I shot a big sow with a 300gr Barnes "Buster". I KNOW that one didn't expand, but the hog dropped at the shot - shoulder and neck penetration - at 50 yards. Punching a nearly 1/2" hole clean through does a lot of damage, even at low velocities. I did not recover the bullet, but did find the Hard Cast that went through two hogs, and it did not expand much, more like deformed a little. It ripped the throat out of the second hog so dramatically it bled out on the spot. More than likely, the bullet "tumbled". I use the big Barnes when I am on a walk, as it is the most accurate bullet in my gun, but if sitting in a stand where I normally shoot at around 25 yards, I'll shoot the big Hard Cast (which is plenty accurate, itself), because it packs more of a wallop. With the Barnes I use H110 and magnum primers, because it seems to need that to shoot well. The Hard Cast I load ahead of Universal, with standard primers.

Just shot my two semi auto pistols, chronographing some loads - also fired a few into the dirt. A 230gr .45 ACP Hyroshock "expanded" to .8", chronoed under 900fps. A 10mm JHP at 1344 fps expanded to .68".

As to whether expansion or penetration is better, I suspect BOTH is best, when possible. I can't let hogs get under the fence on my property, or they are lost, so I like shoulder or neck shots.

With all do respect....

jwp gave just one example/picture and did not mention caliber/maker.Yes,I use the 45-70 in a Guide Gun and BFR with a Meplat of .375 from a .460 diameter bullet....I run the BFR at 1300 fps with a 525 grain bullet and the rifle at a higher velocity,of course.

There are tons of reports of the cast bullet just penciling through game and I have seen it many times.Randy Garrett makes some awsome/famous bullets that JJ Hack has used and compared to jacketed and I agree with his findings because that is what I have seen.

If you are going to post pictures like jwp did,one example is not the norm and adding caliber and bullet maker would help.....

I would like to see other pictures with the same results......

I use cast in my 454 casull and 45-70 BFR and rifle and have in the 44 mag and none of the results came even close to his posted picture.

Not everyone or even a bunch shoot the high dollar specials as you two do so when posting results,please include caliber and maker of the bullet.They look to me like a special mold made to expand because the normal Cast Performance/Beartooth and others,just don't leave that kind of exit.

Randy Garrett is a good friend of mine and I do not need any lessons on what cast bullets can do as we have talked our ears off about it versus jacketed......In my opinion,a good jacketed bullet trumps a cast in immediate effect and I have shot a couple or two with both.

Jayco

Jayco you haven't posted a single picture of a wound channel nor has anyone else. I know what they are capable of doing whether or not you know is another question

The bear and the moose on the left fell quickly to hard cast bullets



The leg is gone because it pulled off due to a hard cast bullet

What in God's name are you talking about? What high dollar specials do you speak of? I don't follow.

Penciling through?????? If they don't leave a big wound channel and exit, they probably aren't a good design.

The exit in the rib cage was cast by Cast Performance and the hogs leg was blown off by a bullet from Double Tap

You seem to not know nearly as much as you claim

Whoa dude.......I didn't say the cast don't kill,I said that in my experience and what I have seen,the jacketed kills quicker.

The last two I shot with cast,one did extensive damage internally because it hit a rib and blew bones all over inside,the other,penciled through missing all bone......The same or close to shot with an '06 and Core-Lokt did less damage not hitting bone than the cast hitting bone but went down quicker.

I don't take pictures of wound channels/exit holes or of most game I shoot.I have never owned a camera until I got a cell phone and rarely take the noisy little bastad out in the field.I did once and my son went through the roof and he is bigger than me.......

Jellied meat is not something I am proud of and it means..Bad shot.....

A .458 bullet pencilling through game not hitting bone does less damage than an expanding bullet cutting it's way through and expanding larger than the cast meaning more of an immediate effect.....

I agree with JJ and his numbers of game probably trump most everyone here.Jacketed have a more immediate effect..period.....That means something in steep country.

Cast kill/no doubt and I have about 1,000 of them I will continue to use but I have never ever seen an exit on commercial cast like your picture.....I know it's true,just a first for me to see that sized exit with a cast bullet made by a commercial caster.

Jayco

Missed that..Is it insult/nasty time?

Jayco

You said that all the hard cast do is "pencil through I have seen it many times" now that is what my reply is directed toward and your quote is completely incorrect if the proper meplat and nose profile hard cast bullet is used. I have also had bad experience with small meplat and or incorrect nose profile hard cast bullets. But I have had excellent success with bullets from Beartooth, Cast Performance and Double Tap I am sure other are up to the task but I have not used them

Simply stating an observation. You still haven't posted a picture of a wound channel of any sort much less the "pencil through" effect

Appears that you have never tried a flat point solid with at least 65% meplat or larger

Really..You post the same two pictures over and over and over again.....You also said you agree that it takes several dozen Elk down with a caliber (even if it is a proven caliber like the .338 Win Mag) to see if a cartridge/caliber is up to the task.

Really?

Have you killed 36 or more Bear/Elk or Moose with your combination you posted with cast bullets?

Just an observation.....

Jayco

Really you have posted pictures of what? what visual evidence do you present

Have you?

Well John,I have owned big bore handguns since I was 16 years old.I actually thought you and I could discuss cast versus jacketed like gentlemen without insults,but it seems I was wrong...I own two today....

That's the way it goes sometimes on the net.

In answer to your question-.I did not agree with that statement but you did.The .338 Win Mag,if you can shoot it,has already proven itself time after time and there is not a need to shoot 36 anything with it to prove it once again...........

Jayco

You are trying to discredit, not discuss. I have shot a lot of game with a handgun in my life with both jacketed and hard cast I have found that I prefer hard cast

I'm not discrediting anything.Good for you and your handgun kills.I have shot a few also,probably not as many as you but I would bet money,JJ has shot more than you/me and whit all put together or close to it and he,like me,prefers jacketed.

Owe well,life goes on,doesn't it?

Just because I or anyone else does not agree with you does not mean your choice is wrong or our choice is wrong and most importantly....NOT A REASON TO INSULT ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS..................

I prefer not to throw back today.

Jayco

You haven't been insulted, you accused me and Whitworth of shoot specialty bullets not available to everyone which isn't true you discredited my experience and knowledge, yet you claim that you were insulted. Amazing

I know jwp's handgun hunting bonafides, what are yours? You're discrediting the performance of hardcast bullets and you cite the experiences of others. What are yours? This is a legit question and not a reason to throw insults at me.

My gawd..Can either of you go pee without the other holding it?

I did not discredit cast bullets..I said I own like 1,000 of them.I have shot game with them and with jacketed...I simply said I prefer jacketed over cast for immediate effect.....

Where in the hell did you get I discredited cast bullets?

I have been hunting with a big bore pistol since I was about 16 years old off and on but I prefer a rifle ........I reloaded a 44 Mag in the 60's with a Lee Loader and 2400...Big Bores are not new to me and I have my opinion as you two twins have yours........

I have not payed a single cent/penny to hunt anything or anywhere..Just local hunting for me.......If I had half the bucks some put out to hunt elsewhere,I would be rich.....

I hunt for food only,not bragging rights rifle or handgun and I am not a pistol luny just a pistol user and I have the right just like you to give my "opinion"..

You ain't getting my lunch money.....

Jayco

Can you read? I said you tried to discredit my experience and knowledge

Any pictures, any at all?

And can you talk about handgun hunting experience without citing JJ?

By the way, I don't want your lunch money. So what are your bonafides?

Is turdcutter talking about tarp hunting again?

GFY John........I have posted pictures before and I sure as hell ain't going to tackle the new photobucket 30 pages back on an Android phone.If I started now and didn't quit,I might have them in the morning....

How much have you paid to hunt in your lifetime?How much was the Alaskan hunt?

You and Whit follow each other around to several forums posting and gang bang anyone who does not agree and Whit is a moderator on AR..

Are JJ's postn cast versus jacketed just ignored because he would wype you both off the map with his experience?You two are [bleep] up....Anyone who disagree's gets the gang bang and Whit is a moderator on AR......Your a follower on 24hr.......

Man..If you can't talk logic and except others opinions that don't agree with you/Don't post....

And show me where I tried to discredit anything you posted,I simply had a different opinion.....

I'm done with this little John.....Carry on....

Jayco

I lived in Alaska for seven years and how much I paid or didn't pay to hunt is not relevant to bullet performance. You continue to bring JJ into your argument are you basing your position on JJ's experience? Which by the way is different from mine.

I see that you have resorted to vulgar insults to bolster your position. Bravo

Strange debating tactic you have there, Jayco. What in God's name does my moderator status on AR (or any of the other websites I moderate on for that matter) have to do with your handgun hunting experience? I have actually used both types of bullets in revolvers and in fact have used both this year. Can't form a credible opinion about one or the other without actually using them.

Excuse me...GFY is a 24hr motto okayed by our leader and mentor, Travis and he would never say anything that was vulgar,thank you.....

I'm still on probation(No search-No ignore-No Sig line-No ask the gunwriter etc) so I choose not to carry this discussion on anymore for fear of raising the dead..

Your right/I am wrong....Long live Little John and the AR moderater posting on 24hr.Your both right all the time about anything posted.

Jayco out.

No, we're not right all of the time, but you have taken a position without actually having performed the necessary testing. Again, what does my moderator status have to do with anything here???????? Please enlighten me.

I was referring to this

[img:left]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee243/clm1956/leadbullet_zps27ff9eb3.jpg?t=1371345263[/img]

OK, back to the subject at hand. Today I did a little bullet test on two bullets fired into a box filled with soaked magazines from a .44 mag. The jacketed bullet is a 240 grn Sierra JHC and the lead bullet is a 240 grn Oregon LaserCast. They should have both impacted at about 1250 fps.

The cast bullet penetrated better - 10" vs. 6.75" and didn't appear to expand much, if any, less. The Sierra bullet did mushroom but it didn't hold together as I found little pieces of copper in its trail.

But my question for you cast lead guys, is that deformation you see at the front of the LaserCast bullet OK? Do you expect to see the meplate of your bullets retain their sharp edges? I don't think Oregon publishes the BH of their bullets, but they claim that they're hard enough to hunt with.

???

For me it would depend upon what I'm hunting. Smaller,thin-skinned game I'll opt for expansion, because with any decent hunting cal. penetration should be adequate. For larger, possibly dangerous game,penetration is a must!!! Many large dangerous animals in Africa were (and still are) taken with solids. memtb

I agree completely.

McInnis,

What was your load for that 240 JHC?

Thanks for the pics

DR

Many do not realize that a hard cast nose can and will deform. How much? that depends on several factors 1- bullet alloy and hardness, 2- the density of the target. Thoroughly soaked news print with a hard cast of 22 to 24 Brinell at 1400 FPS or less I do not see much if any change in the nose. If the media is merely wet but not soaked then some degradation will occur. A so called "hard cast" at least 1200 FPS or more muzzle velocity with a brinell of 12 to 14 will expand. If a hard cast is harder than the 22 to 24 brinel then it runs the risk of being too brittle and will break up.

ON game the size of buffalo, moose,etc if a 22 to 24 brinel goes through heavy bone then the nose will definable degrade. At 1575 FPS a 22 to 24 brinell hard cast in thoroughly soaked news print will compress thus getting shorter and wider. with the nose and meplat remaining sharp


I do not recommend driving hard cast bullet over 1400 FPS for best performance on larger game. On deer the destruction of the bullet will aid in the wound channel and the penetration will still be enough.

In over 40 years of taking game with a handgun I have found for me the best over all over the widest range of conditions is a wide me plat with proper nose profile works very well on all size game and is my go to load. I do still shoot a lot of jacketed bullets, but have little faith in the majority for use on all size of game. The Horandy XTP mag version is the best jacketed for really large game IMHO and experience.

THe 240 JHC Sierra has a 1 1/2 percent antimony core and a stiff jacket and is a good hunting bullet as well IMHO. Hard Cast means different things to different people to me it means a bullet for a hand gun with a brinel of 22 to 24. less than that it is not a hard cast. Some people consider 12 to 14 to be a hard cast.

I hope this helps

One more point, magazines tend to be tougher material than news print probably because they are more difficult to thoroughly soak

If I was hunting these large dog sized central Texas deer, the XTP would be in order. Hogs get cast bullets. If I had to I would use cast all the time, penetration is never a bad thing.

There are 2 big bore XTP's the standard version and the mag version the mag version is an excellent penetrator

Both bullets were loaded with 14.5 grns Blue Dot, close to max but not quite.

I forgot to mention something else I found interesting. The cast bullet turned completely sideways before it stopped.

This is due to the meplat or nose profile not being correct. All bullets are not created equal. I had a terrible experience 435 grain .510 bullet in the 500L turned very quickly and did not penetrate well at all. I almost abandoned the cartridge but a bit of digging revealed the problem an incorrect nose profile. The Cast Performance 525 grain WFN leaves large wound channels and at 1100 FPS out penetrates the 475L 420 at 1383 FPS

Proper meplat and nose profile are a key that is over looked far too often

By the looks of both bullets and the noses, I wouldn't be surprised if both didn't turn sideways.

Whatever the alloy in the cast bullet, its nose shape and impact speed surpassed the expansion threshold, just like the JHP.

McInnis recovered bullets from test posted for all to see




The hard cast doesn't appear to be what I would term to be "Hard Cast" looks more like a 12 to 14 brinel or the media was very abusive IMHO and experience

Once the flat point is this badly degraded straight line penetration is badly compromised in my experience

I'd say the cast bullet was about in that BHN range; coupled with the fact that slick magazine paper, even when wet, is like shooting dry print.

Its a very uncompromising medium as it makes hollow points fail to open (nothing gets into the cavity and the jacket holds up expansion) and can make moderately hard solids deform.

Dry print or slick magazines is a good way to test cast solid alloy hardness, if you don't have a tester. If it deforms on such, it will generally deform on some heavy bone.

I should note (I think I might have before) that a cast bullet can be made to expand with dry print or slick magazine paper just based on nose shape, impact speed and alloy hardness.
The hollow point and even a soft point jacketed bullet often will not, due to the jacket and the need for a predominantly liquid medium and the need to hit at a certain speed.

Think hard fat and hair...

You're speaking for yourself. I don't have a leader and mentor on the internet. The concept is somewhere between sad and disgusting.