Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Handgun hunting... penetration or expansion?

OK, all things being equal, say a .44 mag with 240 grain bullets at the same velocity which do you find more important? Penetration from a Keith style bullet or expansion from a JHP (say an xtp. Disclaimer, this would be used on whitetails nothing bigger.

All things being equal, penetration allows leakage from 2 holes instead of one, which is always a good thing.

This is the outfit I would use for a .44 mag if you reload. Scroll down to the .44 mag bullet it's a 240 grain soft point. Should have good expansion and penetration. When I started loading my .44 mag I will use the 240 grain soft point.

I did order their 230 grain FMJ for my .45 Auto although I've not had a chance to use them yet.

I don't know what it is with hollow points and big chucks of lead for the .44 mag, the soft point worked for years now the soft point isn't good enough. Plenty of dead animals out there everything from deer to Grizzlies and everything in between.

I lean more to the two hole thought....

I have examples of hundreds of animals which have generated my very strong opinions on this. Almost all have been with black bears, but many have been deer, African antelopes, cow elk, oh yeah,..... probably 50 plus wild hogs too.

Using the 240 grain XTP, Garrett 310grain, or 240grain hard cast TC. from a 4" 44 mag Smith and Wesson Mountain gun for 90% of these animals.

All of these bullets killed every single animal shot regardless of size. All of them performed well, with more then acceptable lethal effects. There has been a significant difference between them however.

The hard cast bullets regardless of bullet weight or the animals shot with them all worked about the same. I would give the edge to the lighter truncated cone 240 because it was much higher velocity then the 310 grain load. If both penetrate through and exit the additional weight of the 310 adds nothing to the lethal force. it would work better on something a person might shoot that was bigger then a cow elk cow kudu, or ??? it would be a better choice on the extreme limits of the 44 mags potential on the biggest game. On game up to 400 lbs the additional weight did nothing as the bullets 310 or 240 Hard cast exited all nearly every time.

The XTP bullets did not exit all the time. On smaller game of 200 lbs or so they would get through very frequently, but there was the occasional under the hide, or near the opposite side. on the much bigger game they were nearly always on the opposite side of the animal in the muscle or skin, and to my recollection always at least to the ribs on the opposite side.

Because the hollow points would make it clear through the chest with a very large diameter damage path the damage was extensive. I like exits and blood trails as a very high priority. However the great majority of deer size game and almost all the bears would not go more then 100 yards with the XTPs. There were the odd animals shot that caused a stress to find in thick brush but by and large the XTP shot animals were staggered, and or simply crumpled at the shot and just dropped and kicked. I cannot recall any instance were there was a question to the animal being hit. The impacts were frequently obvious and devastating.

With the hard cast bullets, the typical reaction was much different most of the time. At the shot the animal would bolt away without knowing whether it was hit or not. I've had hunters with me that after the shot would whip their head around and say, "did I miss" and I would reply, no..... the blood was pumping out big time. The trail would be easy to follow and we could usually walk to the dead animal in under 100 yards.

Now, that explains the best of the hard cast situation with the problem of almost no impact reaction on a pure broadside chest shot. There were lots .... LOTS of animals shot that we could not tell if they were hit or not, and left minimal blood trails and no good way of tracking them. Many times those Hard cast bullets with a bore diameter entry and exit would not bleed right away, and they would run 75-100 yards easily before dropping any trackable blood. Then from there we could track them to where they were dead.

My opinions from hundreds of animals shot with both kinds of bullets within this target animal size range is very strong. The premium HPs kill and fold game faster. Maybe 30% faster, or put another way 30% closer to point of impact for a round educated "guess" at the distance.

Maybe 30% seems like its not enough to consider, but for me it could be the difference between walking up on the animal dead, or deciding to turn around and look in another area. Or worse walking away and giving up at that point.

There have been really devastating crumpling shots with Hard cast bullets and some animals that died within sight of us. but that was the exception. Where the HP bullets it was the norm. If I were to have only seen 20-30 of the best impacts and recoveries from the Hard cast bullets I would probably never shoot another HP again. I could say the same thing this way, If I only experienced the 20-30 worst HP recoveries I would probably never use them again.

The difference is that when you see 100's of animals shot the differences and more consistent performance and expectations start forming. Another example was shooting a bear in a foot snare at 30 feet. With a hard cast bullet that bear would charge you full on head down with everything it has until the cable ran out and jerked it off its feet. At that point it was done and within a few moments was dead. With a 240 grain Hollow point, at the shot the bear rolled and bit at the wound and could not care less that you were there, its priority was to focus on the lethal wound it now had.

This was a very impactful part of what formed my opinions. The available aggression and functional ability of a bear after a clean poke through the chest was memorable. I cannot tell you how many times walking in on a snared bear I checked and rechecked my cylinder to be 100% positive I have a HP bullet not a cast bullet. There were too many instances of having the bear launch at full speed right at us after the shot. There have been a few occasions that the snare was not as tight as possible and they would pull out under that full speed rage filled charge. Thankfully that only happened when they saw us walking in, before the shot and they were headed the other way.

Knowing that the snares could hold them but without being fully locked only happened a few times. It still left us with the very strong desire to crumple them with the shot. Had that snare pulled off on one of the bears that charged after the shot, I would likely have been injured by a bear dead on it's feet, but while it still had enough blood available to get to one of us.

For anything, you have to have ADEQUATE penetration, so penetration is always important. But when you�re talking most ANYTHING .44 mag, penetration shouldn�t really be an issue on Whitetail deer. I�ve seen Whitetails put down with great authority with a 210 grain Winchester Silvertip which is not what anyone would call a �tough� bullet. Any 240 grain JHP from a major manufacturer will be MORE than adequate on Whitetails. I don�t have any personal experience with the .44 magnum on deer, but I have quite a bit on Black Bear, and the .240 JHP was easily the most effective load I�ve ever used on Black Bear. Most times you get full penetration, but not always. But regardless of complete penetration or not, the effect on the bear was quite the same. Immediately on impact you could clearly see all the fight drain out of the bear, and only flight was on the bears mind. Muscle tone that had the bear�s fur standing nearly on end goes nearly flaccid, and the bear clearly registered a very significant, life threatening event; and EVERY TIME, turned to run. The trip was never over 100 yards, and only that far typically when running down hill.

When I used Keith (Lyman 429421) bullets on black bear, the effect was VERY unimpressive. They died, but they didn�t do so in a hurry, and I didn�t see that the Keith bullet in .44 magnum performed even as well as a 158 grain JHP out of a .357 magnum. That�s my observation.

Both maybe?

I'm with KG here. I've never hunted with a .44m but lord if my .357 shooting XTP's will go in and out of a deer I can't see why any reasonable load outta a .44 wouldn't.

Like JJ said, exit wound doesn't equal more blood loss or blood on the ground. Seen many of deer hit thru and thru with foster slugs (I know different but use your imagination) that took 30-50 yards to drop blood. But you take that same deer with a Sabot slug that doesn't exit and it will be blowing blood from the get go. I'll take one big wound over 2 small holes.

JJ... thanks for sharing your impressions over a significantly large number of animals shot with both bullet types. I haven't shot nearly as many animals with handguns as you have, roughly a dozen, or 18 if you include "finishing" shots on previously shot critters.

I have been a lot less impressed with the performance of solid "hard cast" bullets than I thought I would be, based on their press over the past 10-15 years.

I realize I sound like a broken record on this, but the definitions of "hard cast" are highly variable. Elmer Keith hunted with bullets he considered quite hard compared to other lead bullets of the day, but if you read his books you find that his bullets were alloys that would give a BHN of 12-14. Compare that to the "hard cast" bullets of today from Lasercast, CBP, etc, which typically have a BHN of 20-24.

In my early days with hard cast bullets found I could drive a 45 Colt 260 gr WFN bullet with a BHN of 20 thru a seasoned maple log 12-14" thick, and more than 5 feet through the carcass of a freshly slaughtered horse. But when I shot that bullet through the chest of a whitetail deer, that deer would typically run a couple hundred yards before collapsing, unless I spined the deer. A good JHP bullet, though, would typically pass right through, do a lot more damage internally, and drop the deer much quicker. Same thing appears to be true with soft lead muzzleloader bullets, and also with hollowpoint cast bullets, which I'm just starting to play with this year. That's an important factor to consider when you're hunting on a small piece of land and you can't cross fencelines to retrieve an animal you've shot.

I know jwp will argue against this, as he's had real good success with hard cast bullets on BIG game many times, but I'm convinced an expanding bullet with decent penetration is better than a non-expanding bullet with phenomenal penetration.

Doc - As long as we're not talking BIG game, you're right; JHP is the way to go. JWP contends that the WFN bullets will create much larger than caliber wounds, and I�ll have to take his word on that as I�ve never used a WFN on anything other than paper. The advantage of the WFN is that you can have a �one load� for everything from a forked horn deer, up to an overweight moose. And for those who hunt in areas where there truly are BIG critters, such a load makes a whole lot of sense. In the states that have big bears, you�re in their zone whether you�re hunting big critters or not, so a WFN load for everything makes a lot of sense. One other real advantage that shouldn�t be discounted with the WFN loads is cost. If you own the mold, then you can create hunting loads for about the same cost as your practice rounds; always using the same bullet. That�s nice!

For me, I live in Arkansas and the largest thing we have is Elk; but those tags are as tough to get as winning the lottery. So that leaves Whitetails and Black Bear as pretty much the biggest thing I�m ever likely to encounter. And for that, ANY 200 grain or heavier JHP from a major factory maker will do anything I ever need to get done in a .44 mag. Actually, I have a former neighbor who swears by the 180 grain XTP which he's used with success on both Black Bear and Whitetails.

If I was going to shoot a Bison or Moose I would absolutely use a Garrett 310 hardcast bullet. But not for smaller big game. I have visited with Randy on countless occasions and had this conversation in every detail. He agreed with my first hand observations, it's why I was using his ammo in the first place He knew my work and wanted data collected for his reference. There was never any question that this was accurate and repeatable performance. Randy himself knew this without question.

The .44 mag alone with just about anything that fits through the barrel will kill 100-400 pound big game animal. The heavy hardcast ammo was to get the .44 mag to the next level, which it does with flawless perfection. For those bison, bull elk, moose or elephant hunters it's the best game in town.

Heck, I have a Sig P220, If I were going to load this for some bigger then intended critter I would be using a Hardcast flat nose bullet not a HP. The entire philosophical view is that the Hardcast bullet can get you to the next level of performance when the penetration is insufficient with a HP.

However when the penetration is acceptable with a HP then it trumps a solid. The confusion over all this comes from a fella hearing or reading that the .44 mag is so powerful it can kill a bison with the 310grain hardcast bullet. It leaves the impression that it's the most powerful ammo possible.

It's a truthful statement that its the best penetrator, but maybe not the most disruptive internally. Put another way, and I have seen this 100 times.

Shoot a smaller antelope species through the chest with a 375HH mag which has nearly 5000 FPE with any good quality hunting bullet or a solid,

Then shoot one in the same way with a .270 or even a 25/06 using a Soft point bullet like a Nosler Ballistic tip, These two rifles have roughly half the ME. Whats the reaction when the animal is hit?

The antelope hit with the 375HH will in most cases vanish into the bush and be recovered maybe 50-80 meters away. The one shot with the 25/06 will in most cases fold stagger and fall within sight. Yet its only half the power!

Choose the proper projectile for the application, Hard cast is far and away better on the biggest game, or to increase the penetration capability of a less then optimal gun for the job. When the power potential is there for you, then the Premium HP bullets will bring you very satisfying results!

Kevin: I think we're in agreement here. Here's a photo of a couple of my own cast bullets:




The bullet on the left is a 300 gr WFN-type bullet, cast from a Lee mould. Cast out of "sweetened" alloy and dropped from the mould into cold water, this bullet has a BHN of about 22-24. Propelled out of a Bisley .45 at 1300 fps, it is a formidable load.

The bullet on the right started out looking exactly like the bullet on the left. It was recovered from a water tank after I shot it through a seasoned maple log 13-14" thick. Now, that is penetration. The only other bullet of this type I have ever recovered was shot into the front end of a smallish draft horse that had just been killed by my friend's grandfather, who ran a rendering yard in rural Wisconsin. The bullet looks pretty much like the one you see on the right, but in this case it had penetrated from the brisket through to the left haunch and was found under the offside hide.

I have shot 3 whitetail deer with this bullet, never recovered one of them. Exit wounds were roughly 2-3" in diameter, and the insides were jelly. All 3 deer ran over 100 yards despite having no lungs left in their chests, and one of them had only a single shoulder to run on.

Compare to this bullet:



This is a Corbon 115 gr JHP recovered under the skin of a whitetail shot at a distance of about 10 feet. The bullet traversed the chest, turned everything inside into jelly, and did not exit. The deer dropped DRT. In fact, every deer I've ever shot with a JHP pistol bullet, only about a dozen in total, dropped DRT.

Does this prove that JHP's are better? Well, on whitetails and other medium-sized game, I think it causes me to lean in that direction.

But I love my cast bullets, because they're cheap, and I have fun casting them. I'm currently working with a new mould/bullet which drops 270 gr WFN hollowpoint bullets out of an LBT mould. I'll try to take some pics later and post them. What I like about this bullet so far is that it gives me much of the best features of BOTH the WFN bullet and the JHP bullet. I'm still working on the penetration/expansion studies, and time is precious so the work is going slow... but suffice to say I think I'm close to the Holy Grail of 45 Colt bullets here, with a 270 gr bullet that will expand and absolutely destroy internal organs like a JHP, yet penetrate deeply like a WFN. I need to get the match between alloy hardness and impact velocity right, but I'm narrowing it down and should have it by Spring.

ok, so it appears for whitetails it is a JHP. Thanks guys this has been a fun read.

OK...

This is a pic of my new project bullet... an LBT WFN bullet adapted by Erik at hollowpointbullets.com with his unique design. Sorry for the lousy quality of the cellphone pic.



The HP cavity is conical, about 1/2" deep. The HP cavity displaces about 30 gr of lead, so the nominal 300 gr mould throws 270 gr HP bullets. Accuracy potential is, so far, very good. Which means that the HP cavities in Erik's design are concentric. At this point I'm working with two loads, one at about 920 fps, and the other at about 1150 fps, trying to find the right alloy for accuracy plus expansion potential at that velocity. I've got a [bleep] of gallon milk jugs saved up for the expansion tests. Probably won't get around to doing those tests until February, though... gotta lotta hunting to do right now, so ammo and load development is on a backburner for a bit yet.

Doc,

Looks like you�re having a lot of cast bullet fun. I�ve played with cast hollow points and they can be really great because you can control the metallurgy to match your velocity range and intended purposes. It�s kinda like making dual-metal �soft points� by using two grades of lead in the same mold. I�ve used almost pure lead Hollow Points out of a .357 on Coyotes and OMG were they spectacular. I love the look of your hollow point bullets. The only ones I have are made from Keith style bullets, but if you get the metallurgy right, they�re very impressive bullets indeed. I really wish there were more inexpensive factory hollow point molds. Fortunately I have a friend who makes custom bullet molds, and he always treats me right if I show up with an ice cold 6 pack of Avery�s IPA.

Yes, I too mourn the loss of Lee and Lyman factory HP moulds... even used, they're really expensive. I had a HP mould for Keith-style 357 SWC, and foolishly traded it off as part of a gun deal. Raccoons and chucks literally 'sploded when hit with those bullets! Never shot a yote with one, though...

Oh that's too funny, that's EXACTLY how I lost both of mine...ha,ha,ha. I'll never make that mistake again. Two things I never trade off anymore are hollow point bullet molds, and good gunleather.

Doc, those look sic! Where can I get some? Lol. I would also like something similar in a 180 or so for my .40 S&W.

check out this listing on hollowpointmold.com:

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/forsale/sale-pictures/?item=188

That's a Lee 2-cavity mould using Erik's bar conversion, casts a 175 gr 10mm/40 cal bullet. Should meet your needs nicely.

Doc, please post your results when you get around to testing the new 10mm hard cast HP bullet. Looks to be a great 10mm hunting bullet! Should works great in my Glock 20 that I normally carry while bow hunting in NM & CO.
I know they claim you can't use cast bullets in Glocks, but I've been shooting "hard" cast LBT bullets in mine for over 15 years with no problems whatsoever.
But I normally pack it with 200gr XTP's going 1350 fps when bow hunting the Rockys

I too am a huge Elmer Keith fan, and have been using his style of cast bullets in my 44mags & 45colt's for years.
In my 44 mag revolvers, I'm now using a .44 cal .260gr LBT bullet with 10 grains of unique at around 1100 fps. It's very accurate & I've found it has plenty of Penatraition on deer, feral hogs, & Mesquite limbs, which I often use for Penatration testing.
I load the same type LBT 45 cal 260gr hard cast in all my revolvers that are chambered in 45 colt at similar velocitys. Again, providing great Penatration & big exit wounds.

Deer & feral hogs may run 50 to 100 yards after a solid hit with this type of loads, but I'll take the huge exit wound & two holes to leak blood out of any day!
Sure is nice if you have to track them down.

For a serious load, I use a 300gr LBT WFN in the .44mag at 1350fps using WW 296 in my Custom Rugers & a 325gr LBT WFN in my Rugers only also at about 1350fps. Both loads will Penatrate 25 to 30 inches of 2 X 4's

JJ, that's one of the most informative posts I've read here. Not many can match your experience when it comes to this topic, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I'm just getting into handgun hunting so I found what you had to say most interesting.

Of course I won't be surprised if one of the hard cast cult comes along and refutes everything you said by posting a photo of a deer with a big hole in it's heart.