Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Handgun hunting... penetration or expansion?

cobrad

Load the regular XTP in 454 brass with 2400 and get 44 mag velocities with one handed results..Very tame load in a 454..I think(don't quote me from memory) 23 grains of 2400 in Casull brass, gave me right at 1300 fps in my 6.5" 454 Casull.

The XTP mag is a tough bullet and needs velocity to work right.The regular XTP is a great bullet even in the 1500 fps range.

Jayco

A hard cast with a meplat of 78% of bullet diameter at 950 FPS made this exit in the rib cage of a 6X7 bull elk I am holding a loaded 300 win mag for size comparison




The meplat of a hard cast is the key to the wound channel. I fail to see how a JHP would have been more effective

Well jwp,probably because JJ has a zillion times the experience than either one of us do........Hard to ignore his experiences with both,especially Randy Garretts loads.....

I use both myself and I agree there is more of an immediate effect from jacketed but dead is dead.

Jayco

I am happy to get that type of performance every time and I will continue to use the wide meplat hard cast

Some don't get those results with cast bullets and that's why alot of people despise them.I have never had an exit like the one you posted with cast,even with a Meplat as large as you can get and stuff into a 45-70 from Beartooth bullets and the rifle still function and the BFR limits size do it tight chambers..Nothing over .460 they say although .460 works fine.

There usually a hole in and a hole out but nothing like the picture you posted.I am assuming yours are home grown,not commercial cast bullets like Beartooth or Cast Performance.

Jayco

It seems that you missed where I stated that the meplat size and shape is the key to getting large wound channels. I know what works and that is what I use and I always get large wound channels. The original "Keith" semi wadcutter had a relatively small meplat and produced a rather small wound channel. Today we have semi wadcutters that have very wide meplats and they are still being called a "Keith" which they are not and that is confusing too many. The same applies to the term "LBT". The nose profile is also very important as well

I consistently get large wound channels and the animals go down very quickly.


Many of Beartooth's bullets are made with true "LBT" molds and are excellent the WFN style leaves the largest wound channel. I also like the LFN's

Okay, so you are using them in a .45/70 rifle, which may explain why you aren't getting the results you could. How fast are you pushing them? Anything much over 1,400 fps and you are exceeding the material's ability to maintain integrity.

I don't expanding jacketed bullets because they are inconsistent from day to day. When they work, they work like gangbusters, when they don't, they really don't.

As jwp pointed out, there are good cast bullets and there are bad cast bullets. The problem starts when folks lump them all together and generalize.

I have friends who guide hog hunts, using .44 mag Ruger 77 bolt rifles with suppressors. They shoot 300gr XTP's at under 1100fps, and kill hundreds of hogs. Shots are under 75 yards, sometimes a lot under, and they usually get pass-throughs, even on shoulder shots. On bullets they've recovered, they even see some expansion. I prefer Hard Cast in my suppressed .44 - out of a 14" barrel. Loaded at just under 1100 fps, the Montana Bullet Works 335gr Hard Cast (with a copper gas check) has shot through two hogs for me. Even with no apparent expansion, both of those hogs fell dead on the spot - neck shot. Two weeks ago I shot a big sow with a 300gr Barnes "Buster". I KNOW that one didn't expand, but the hog dropped at the shot - shoulder and neck penetration - at 50 yards. Punching a nearly 1/2" hole clean through does a lot of damage, even at low velocities. I did not recover the bullet, but did find the Hard Cast that went through two hogs, and it did not expand much, more like deformed a little. It ripped the throat out of the second hog so dramatically it bled out on the spot. More than likely, the bullet "tumbled". I use the big Barnes when I am on a walk, as it is the most accurate bullet in my gun, but if sitting in a stand where I normally shoot at around 25 yards, I'll shoot the big Hard Cast (which is plenty accurate, itself), because it packs more of a wallop. With the Barnes I use H110 and magnum primers, because it seems to need that to shoot well. The Hard Cast I load ahead of Universal, with standard primers.

Just shot my two semi auto pistols, chronographing some loads - also fired a few into the dirt. A 230gr .45 ACP Hyroshock "expanded" to .8", chronoed under 900fps. A 10mm JHP at 1344 fps expanded to .68".

As to whether expansion or penetration is better, I suspect BOTH is best, when possible. I can't let hogs get under the fence on my property, or they are lost, so I like shoulder or neck shots.

With all do respect....

jwp gave just one example/picture and did not mention caliber/maker.Yes,I use the 45-70 in a Guide Gun and BFR with a Meplat of .375 from a .460 diameter bullet....I run the BFR at 1300 fps with a 525 grain bullet and the rifle at a higher velocity,of course.

There are tons of reports of the cast bullet just penciling through game and I have seen it many times.Randy Garrett makes some awsome/famous bullets that JJ Hack has used and compared to jacketed and I agree with his findings because that is what I have seen.

If you are going to post pictures like jwp did,one example is not the norm and adding caliber and bullet maker would help.....

I would like to see other pictures with the same results......

I use cast in my 454 casull and 45-70 BFR and rifle and have in the 44 mag and none of the results came even close to his posted picture.

Not everyone or even a bunch shoot the high dollar specials as you two do so when posting results,please include caliber and maker of the bullet.They look to me like a special mold made to expand because the normal Cast Performance/Beartooth and others,just don't leave that kind of exit.

Randy Garrett is a good friend of mine and I do not need any lessons on what cast bullets can do as we have talked our ears off about it versus jacketed......In my opinion,a good jacketed bullet trumps a cast in immediate effect and I have shot a couple or two with both.

Jayco

Jayco you haven't posted a single picture of a wound channel nor has anyone else. I know what they are capable of doing whether or not you know is another question

The bear and the moose on the left fell quickly to hard cast bullets



The leg is gone because it pulled off due to a hard cast bullet

What in God's name are you talking about? What high dollar specials do you speak of? I don't follow.

Penciling through?????? If they don't leave a big wound channel and exit, they probably aren't a good design.

The exit in the rib cage was cast by Cast Performance and the hogs leg was blown off by a bullet from Double Tap

You seem to not know nearly as much as you claim

Whoa dude.......I didn't say the cast don't kill,I said that in my experience and what I have seen,the jacketed kills quicker.

The last two I shot with cast,one did extensive damage internally because it hit a rib and blew bones all over inside,the other,penciled through missing all bone......The same or close to shot with an '06 and Core-Lokt did less damage not hitting bone than the cast hitting bone but went down quicker.

I don't take pictures of wound channels/exit holes or of most game I shoot.I have never owned a camera until I got a cell phone and rarely take the noisy little bastad out in the field.I did once and my son went through the roof and he is bigger than me.......

Jellied meat is not something I am proud of and it means..Bad shot.....

A .458 bullet pencilling through game not hitting bone does less damage than an expanding bullet cutting it's way through and expanding larger than the cast meaning more of an immediate effect.....

I agree with JJ and his numbers of game probably trump most everyone here.Jacketed have a more immediate effect..period.....That means something in steep country.

Cast kill/no doubt and I have about 1,000 of them I will continue to use but I have never ever seen an exit on commercial cast like your picture.....I know it's true,just a first for me to see that sized exit with a cast bullet made by a commercial caster.

Jayco

Missed that..Is it insult/nasty time?

Jayco

You said that all the hard cast do is "pencil through I have seen it many times" now that is what my reply is directed toward and your quote is completely incorrect if the proper meplat and nose profile hard cast bullet is used. I have also had bad experience with small meplat and or incorrect nose profile hard cast bullets. But I have had excellent success with bullets from Beartooth, Cast Performance and Double Tap I am sure other are up to the task but I have not used them

Simply stating an observation. You still haven't posted a picture of a wound channel of any sort much less the "pencil through" effect

Appears that you have never tried a flat point solid with at least 65% meplat or larger

Really..You post the same two pictures over and over and over again.....You also said you agree that it takes several dozen Elk down with a caliber (even if it is a proven caliber like the .338 Win Mag) to see if a cartridge/caliber is up to the task.

Really?

Have you killed 36 or more Bear/Elk or Moose with your combination you posted with cast bullets?

Just an observation.....

Jayco

Really you have posted pictures of what? what visual evidence do you present

Have you?