Iam thinking about trying the s&w 500 in a 4 inch barrel,
if I don't like the short barrel,how hard will it be to resale?
Also would it be big deal and expense to change the barrel ?

That's a lot in a 4" barrel. What is your intended purpose and have you shot one?

Not a huge X-frame fan, but have found that the 6 1/2-inch .500 Smith is my favorite configuration. The balance is pretty good and the barrel makes a bit more sense given the nature of the cartridge. JMHO.

Shop used and with some patience buying and selling, you should be out much at all. You'll lose more in the ammo cost.

I have a 500 with the 4 inch barrel. I've never been a fan of long-barreled handguns. I've killed deer and hogs at 100 yards with my longest shot 123 yards on a hog. This with open sights and rested firmly. I shoot at least each weekend (outside hunting season) and feel very confident in mine and the guns ability at that yardage. Hitting a paper plate is routine.

I sold all my 6"+ revolvers. If I want to hunt longer range, I enjoy my rifles.

Used 500s seem to sell pretty well. Unless you are able to replace the barrel yourself, paying for a barrel and the labor to switch it would be prohibitive in my experience.

I say wear ear protection and enjoy the convenience of the 4" barrel.

Just my opinion/experience. YMMV.

The 4" barreled 500 is perfect imo

Resale is very good, good market for that configuration. Tons of power in a much more manageable package. Very accurate as well. Mine shot a 700 gn bullet at 1050fps, 440 at damn near 1400! You wont be disappointed if thats what youre looking for. I like to play and have owned just about everything. I always come back to the good ole 45 colt, but love to play with em all

Try the 3" barreled one! It's actually not that bad! Of course, I handload them down a bit.

..another 4"/.500 Fan... Have had mine since shortly after they came out...just a great fun gun to shoot. Anyone who shoots it has a smile for several days...

I've settled on 350 grain bullets to be more than adequate for my needs. Recoil is modest and anyone can shoot it.

Also found a TC Encore 20" barrel cheap and it is a hoot to shoot....

If you don't like the comp, there is a poster over on the S&W Forums that makes a solid insert....

Bob

The .500 S&W can't burn the powder in a short barrel. The inclination is to use a lighter bullet and a pinch of Unique. Recoil is harsh too. I agree with Whitworth that it starts at 6-1/2" and gets better. Even the .500 JRH starts at 6".
All forget spin and the loss of velocity. It comes down to luck to hit long range with a short barrel.

To go even more I have the BFR .500 JRH with a 7-1/2" barrel. I set 5 shotgun shells on the side at 50 yds. Centered all but only found 3 in the weeds. 3/4" targets. Then a shell at 100 yards.

Sorry, but the fact is all of the powder, that is going to burns, burns within the first inch or so. Longer barrel gives the expanding gasses longer to accelerate the projectile.

A short barrel will not spin up a bullet enough for stability. Some guns have a gain twist like the .460 S&W so to cut it down approaches a smooth bore. I will never go too short. But I don't carry and stick a gun into a BG. I hunt deer. My best is a 10-1/2' Ruger SBH. My BFR's in .475 and JRH are 7-1/2" and the 45-70 is 10".

Twist rate is not affected by barrel length. All revolvers have enough twist for normal blunt bullets that are commonly used.

Not true at all. Seen unburned powder on the bench and in brass with barrels too short. You need to feed pressure. Even the lowly .22 needs a certain length, maybe 16" then the bullet will slow if the barrel is too long. A large bore does better with 26" or more. Powder is not gone in an inch. You can't burn 88 gr of 4831 in a .300 Weatherby in an inch. Any short barrel will have a huge nuzzle flash with powder that does not burn until out of the barrel.
7 gr of Unique in a .44 will run out of gas soon and works in a short barrel so why not 24 gr of 296? Most will be blown out the muzzle. Once powder is gone, gas stops expanding, it is volume like the cheap pancake air compressor that will not spin an impact gun. It is why I have a 60 gallon compressor for tools. Can you paint a car with a 3 gallon pancake?
I don't know where your facts come from. I have seen too much powder come out of the muzzle like a flare to burn in the grass. By your standards it should be gone. Once the powder is burned up, no more pressure is made. Magic fairy that increases gas.
Many military rifles reached 27" or more and long rifles are 42". Why in the world do you need 42"? maybe because powder is still burning. You can't get more velocity when the powder is gone. If you are correct a 1" barrel is as fast as a 10". Show us. A .44 with 24 gr of 296 from a 2" barrel should be as fast as from 7-1/2', Not hardly. You say gas expansion bit what makes gas?

Again you are assume and not knowing. I stated that all “the powder that is going to burn” is burnt in the first inch or so with proper ignition. Back in the 70’s when used a lot of 2400 I always found granules of unturned powder even with 10” barrel no more and no less than with shorter barrels.

When powder burns in what length has been covered adnasum on 24 Hour in other forums and is rather well proven

The rifles will burn “all the powder that’s going to burn in 3 or 4 inches. Believe it or not, but you are wrong.

I had the same discussion with a guy on another forum regarding short barrels and velocity, and his ability to grasp the concept was as elusive as bfr's. He couldn't grasp that bullet spin is a simple formula based on twist rate and velocity.

Yes, a shorter barrel will give up some velocity, typically 25-30 fps/inch. And consequently the bullet will be spinning slightly slower. But if a given bullet length and barrel twist requires say 1000 fps to stabilize, whether you have a 4" barrel and 1200 fps or a 6" barrel and 1250 fps, the bullet will stabilize.

Exactly.

Spin is dictated by velocity. Lose velocity and spin decreases.
Let me do this. Take a 240 gr .44 bullet with 24 gr of 296 at maybe 1400 fps. RPM's are 50,400. Lose 200 FPS with a shorter barrel and get 43,200 RPM's. STABLE? My 330 gr needs 1316 FPS to be 47,376 RPM's. You say a twist rate is the same RPM's at all velocities.
Sorry, spin goes down with velocity loss. How about 900 FPS at 32,400 RPM's. You think a 2" barrel with the same twist will do the same as a longer barrel with more velocity is the same. I don't know how to explain. You need to get a 2" barrel up to 1400 FPS. A pound of Bullseye?
43 gr of 296 will burn in an inch in the .500 S&W? Get real. You will blow the gun to shreds with the pressure. You are always wrong and have been for years.

You can’t explain because you know not what you are talking about. There are no handguns presently being manufactured that do not have enough twist for the bullets used in them no matter the barrel length. I chronographed r” barreled revolver that were faster than 6” revolvers. There are several factors that affect velocity othe4 than barrel length.

If a bullet is stabile at 600 fps leaving the barrel at X twist rate, it doesn’t matter the barrel length.

That is too close to argue about and I won't. But the big bores will lose a lot more velocity since more slow powder is used. Cases are larger and are not a .38. let us look at it, 1200 FPS has a spin of 16 " with a .357. It will be 54,000 RPM's. Now the same at 1250 FPS will be 56, 250 RPMS. Not that much.
It is the larger loss of velocity with the big bores and powders that you must look at. The .454 with a short barrel is no better then a .45 Colt. The .454 must burn powder. the 1 in 24" twist means all you can stuff in it.

No the big bores do not loose more velocity because of the powder used. The 454 Super Redhawk with a barrel of about 2” will produce about 1400 FPS velocity with 300 grain factory loads. That’s is still moving very well.

Unless one gets a revolver with a slow twist barrel or loads well under 1000 fps:

44's will stabilize up to 330 gr
45's will stabilize up to 360 gr
475's stabilize up to 450 gr
and 50's/500's stabilize up to 500 gr.

Doesn't matter if they have 4, 5, 6, 7 1/2" or 10" barrels. They will also produce identical accuracy given the mechanical limitations of the gun no matter the barrel length.

One may prefer varying barrel lengths due to how the gun balances or carries, but accuracy and terminal performance are moot for all intensive purposes.

Moving but stable? All loads for the .454 start at 7-1/2" with 300 gr running about 1750 max. Mostly less. so you have 42,000 RPM's. go longer to get 1750 and you have 52, 500 RPM's. A BFR revolver will spin a bullet from the .454 at 78,750 RPM's.
You do not understand twist and velocities. How can a short barrel spin a bullet if velocity is lower? Twist is fixed but speed is not. You will never get 1750 FPS from a 2" .454. I don't even see your 1400 FPS, more in the 1100 range. .45 Colt.
You have been banned as I have but it was debating you for the most part. I am not wrong and never was.

Not true, Weights are correct but velocity and spin is needed for each. Just try a .44 330 in the .44 at 1100 FPS. How much cardboard would you need at 50 Yards? The .44 with a 330 gr NEEDS to BE at 1300 FPS+. The .45 Colt with a 1 in 16" needs 1160 fps WITH A 335 GR. The .475 wants in the area of 1360 FPS with a 420 gr and the JRH wants 1350 FPS with a 440 gr. You will NOT shoot slower. You will NOT shoot faster either.
A drop of 50 to 100 FPS with a short barrel will remove you from accuracy. It really is spin rates with velocity. To make a 4" barrel shoot like a 6" means the exact same velocity or more. .44 mag at 200 yards.

458 LOTT, is correct, you are not.

My experience has been a 44 w/ a 4 5/8" barrel pushing a 330 gr 1200 fps will be as accurate as the gun is capable of, in the case of that gun 1 1/2" at 25 yds. 45's pushing 360's 1200 fps from a "too short" 5 1/2" barrel also shot as well as I and the gun were capable of. I've shot 100's of 460 gr @ 1050 fps from my 480, they group 1" at 50 yds.

That bullet was tested at the Linebaugh seminar ~15 years ago launched at 1100 fps from a friends 480.



As I recall the bullet on the left penetrated 38" of wet newsprint. The bullet on the right 12" of newsprint and 2+" of bone. As I recall it out penertated every 44 and 45 load tried that year, and was only bested be a few of the 475 and 500 linebaugh loads.

There are many factors that lead to accuracy problems, but a barrel that is a few inches shorter and giving up 50-100 fps is almost never the cause.

I guess it really “boils-down” to exactly how many rpm’s ( think gyroscope) are needed to stabilize the bullet. But, if the rpm numbers stated are “anywhere close”, stabilization should be a non-issue! memtb

You know nothing about powders . Stick powders have different lengths and holes through them. Ball powders have coatings to control burn too as for the stick powders. Flake powders are fast but also have a coating. Every powder is of the same composition but with a change in shape or coating. Fast means powder all ignites quick but coating buffers slow the burn to extend the distance to pressures.
BP was made in all grain sizes . FFFFG to cartridge and cannon. WHY? Burn rate is why. Seems that burn time was known long ago so BP was made with different sizes but JWP thinks all will go off in 1'. Oh my 80 GR OF FFFFG in an inch or 80 gr of FFG in 42"?
I have the burn rate charts but according to you every powder is gone in an inch. why not just one powder for every gun?
Using 24 gr of 296 in my .44 should mean I can use 24 gr of Bullseye. Holy stinking junk, are you for real?

Then again, some people are fully spun up and nowhere near stabilized

Why do you show .480 bullets? 1-1/2' at 25 yards with any revolver is sad. Twist is more important then anyone thinks. Why are revolvers not treated like rifles?

I've shot 100's of 460 gr @ 1050 fps from my 480, they group 1" at 50 yds. did you miss that?

You claimed, "The .475 wants in the area of 1360 FPS with a 420 gr and the JRH wants 1350 FPS with a 440 gr." I'd say my results and the results of another shooter with a heavier bullet going 300 fps slower than you boldly state as the minimum velocity prove the contrary.

Not all revolvers shoot better than 1 1/2" at 25 yds, and IMHO that's not shabby shooting offhand with irons. I have shot 1 1/2" at 100 yds, but the best I've done does not correlate to what every revolver is capable of or what I'm capable of every time I go shooting.

Yes, it can be a few foot per second but is not important. But 50 fps or more can change things. But we have thousands of guns and calibers and thousands of powders and primers. Yet one guy says all powder is gone in an inch. Twist is the same no matter the velocity so anything we shoot should be one hole at 1000 yards. A revolver does not matter but a rifle does. A 2" revolver will be as good as a 26" rifle. NOT and show us. Why not make a .300 mag rifle 1" long.

bfrshooter, uses a scope shooting of of a bench rest setup and acts like anyone that stands and shoots open sites are “sad”. A real piece of work he is.
Unstable bullets wobble and key hole if not stabilized. He harps on a subject that he has little knowledge of.

Revolvers should be handy, not bulkie in my opinion. Your analogy of rifle compared to revolvers is apples to peaches. Rifles shoot totally differently shaped projectiles that are very long for their diameter. Revolver bullets are blunt and do not require the same amount of twist. The 300 wisher can shoot a 30 caliber Sierra 240 grain SMK accurately to 1000 yards with a starting velocity below the speed of sounds. Speed of sound is about 1080 FPS.

Pistols and revolvers still need twist for stability. Have you ever shot a smooth bore? Take a bullet and work loads, sad at start, then groups will get better and then with too much powder, groups will open at the same rate they closed at. You go back to the best load. It is spin for that bullet. Why would a revolver be different then any other gun? Shorten the barrel so a velocity can't be reached for the spin needed and you call me stupid. Then you rant on me because I work loads from the bench as if you can do it off hand. Who do you kid? Not a person on earth can work loads off hand. Any gun must have the human failures removed. Snipers have bi pods and the best scopes. So my bags mean I am stupid. Accuracy is the gun and load but you never ever shot a 3/4" at 100 off hand.
I was always out of shape when Whitworth talked to you from my range after tests. But You have no idea as we put up little water bottles to 100 yards and blew them up off hand. We went neck to neck. You would fail. Whitworth is real and so am I. You are a blowhard that will never understand a revolver. Twist rates? You need to go to a special school. You must drool or poop on the floor.
My daughter is a custodian in school and they pee up the wall and on the floors. You will fit in.
Beware of her, she shot the highest score ever for a woman in the Marine's. Yes, she was a Marine, and could poke your eye at 500 yards. I taught her. I taught Whitworth a lot but he has removed me from his book. Now more books are in print so I need to see if my copyrights are infringed on. OH yes, I did copyright.

No revolver currently sold is marginally stabilized where a bit of slow down form barrel length is going to matter.

Hey John, think your in a peeing match with good old 44 man from cast boolets. Your not going to learn anything or outshoot him on the computer

yes the 500 S&W is a great cartridge ,here`s another thought or my 2 cents: I purchased the smith & Wesson 460 in a smith 6 inch barrel > my reason the 460 s&w is my cartridge but the 454 casull and 45 long colt also fits and can be used in a 460 s&w gun,kinda neat to be able to shoot all 3 cartridges plus Ruger makes no.1`s in a 460 sw,see the fun advantage ?

What on God’s green earth are you talking about? Removed you from my book? I have written three and once they are edited and printed that is it. There’s no going back and removing anything. Your information is incorrect, as I have removed nothing from anything. I cannot imagine what copyrighted material you are talking about. Stop dragging me into your rants.

See, not the same books:

Okay, I keep hearing theories related to twist rates, let's see if anyone can explain the following.

The test subject is a stock Ruger .454 Casull Bisley with the standard (for all production .454s as far as I know) 1:24 twist rate. I have shot fairly extensively the Garrett 405 grain .45 Colt +P load that clocks a verified velocity at right under 1,200 fps from my revolver. To date it has produced with boring regularity, groups such as these:

This one was five shots at 50 yards (bench with Ultradot 30 up top):



This one was a couple of shots (same load) at 25 yards and then the target was pushed out to 50 yards for a total of five-shots:



This group was shot at 25 yards. Four shots in the top hole, while I pulled the last one:



Lastly, this group was shot at 50 yards and featured Double Tap's 360 grain .45 Colt + P load. This one clocked right around 1,150 out of my .454 Bisley. The group measured under one inch. Again, with boring regularity:



Lastly, this 2,000 lb water buffalo fell to three shots of that Garrett 405 grain load out of my .454 Bisley. One exited and the other two were found poking through the offside hide (offside shoulder). You don't see this level of penetration with instability.

My friend Pete bought your book with my suggestion and I am not in it. I told him at pages 195 and 196 and he said nope. He can't find me. John went on Ebay to get an original and I am in it.
Explain why Pete can't find me? Big Bore Revolvers, not the latest books. I do not wish to rant on you and would love to have you back. My problem is JWP that does not understand the revolver at all and just causes trouble. It is funny that I don't hate him either but he called and blew my ears out so I hung up. He will dispute anything I say. Nobody has made a revolver shoot like I have so remember when you were loading here and I hollered at you about ramming the press handle at the speed of light. NO, you really don't. I made bullet molds for you that are never beaten. I still remember you asking where the other bullets hit.
You know at every thing we did you called John, on the range I was left out as a go fer. Do you ever know how much you hurt me?
I have never been wrong like when you took the lights out in the NRA range with A S&W 500. I told you what was wrong and S&W said "shooter error." I could fix it. Yes they have free and stronger cylinder stop springs now. I was correct again. I have changed about 20 now. You never told anyone you had a double with the .500 did you? I proved you wrong many times but you should accept it and learn. A good man should learn. Don't ever tell me I am wrong. Carol and me loved you and your wonderful wife but you took it away. Go hug JWP. A man full of hate. I can't hate you so will we ever be friends again? I did all I could and now listen to JWP hammer me. Then the .454 with the stupid SR primers. You never said a word when failures had to be punched out with a brass rod. Do you remember? What did I find? Was I wrong? How many things can I post?

Looks like BFR needs to give you shooting lessons

THERE HAS ONLY BEEN ONE PRINTING OF THAT BOOK. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUT THIS ANY MORE SIMPLY FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND. MAYBE PETE'S BOOK IS MISSING PAGES. WHY WOULD ANYONE GO THROUGH THE TROUBLE OF EDITING SOMETHING OUT THAT DOESN'T ADD OR DETRACT FROM THE BOOK? That is the height of paranoia as far as I can see.

What on earth do you keep prattling on about? I don't want to be dragged into any of this. If you have a beef with JWP, then you hash it out with him. Leave me out of it. Also, stop trying to rewrite history as your memory is clearly addled. Enough already.

Gentlemen, my apologies for the thread hijacking.

yeah a .45 colt 335 gr is stable at 1160 FPS in a Ruger. Then a Plus P in a .454? You still spun more. a 405 bullet needed the 3 shots.

360, not 335, at 1,150 in a 1:24 twist barrel. Get it? Are you now discounting twist rate? Doesn't the .45 Colt Vaquero have a 1:16 twist? So which one is it? Is twist important or not?

Since you have never shot anything larger than a whitetail, you cannot comment on the number of shots necessary to take out a really large animal, particularly a thick-skinned specimen. All three shots were lethal. I am not of the school where one shoots one time and admires their handiwork. I shoot until the animal is down, particularly if it is something that can hurt me.

Offside hide, poking through, tracked straight.

The load is a 45 Colt shot in a revolver chambered in 454, which has a 1 in 24 twist.

Get real.

Why argue at all? Twist is important for accuracy but but for just a kill. NO, A smooth bore is deadly in it's range. But hit a deer at 100 with a smooth bore leaves something out. 6" or 10" on a huge animal is nothing.
Sorry JWP, you can't make a 1 in 24" shoot slow. Bullet weight is what works. Whit and I shot too heavy at 50 yards to see sideways hits. Slam any animal with a bullet turned sideways and learn how to run.

1 in 24 is a slower twist than you claimed needed for a 360 grain and the velocity is less than claimed needed for a 360. Again you proved to not have a clue.

Tell us why you were kicked of off cast Bullets forum or single action forum or

Don't confuse him with numbers, facts or a broad level of experience gained by testing and field use.

I had the 8-3/8ths barreled version, the 440 gr cast performance WFNGC's at a full 1600 fps SUCKED ;] was hard to want to finish a cylinder full of those SOBS, the steel grip frame would squash the rubber grip to the point of feeling it in your hand and wrist bones, If someone's looking for a powerhouse revolver it certainly wont disappoint.

1 in 24 is a slower twist than you claimed needed for a 360 grain and the velocity is less than claimed needed for a 360. Again you proved to not have a clue.

Tell us why you were kicked of off cast Bullets forum or single action forum or

[/quote]
Kicked off when I said a process was stupid but it was taken as against personal to a man that I never did. If you use a LR primer in a revolver like a .44 or a LR primer in a .500 case made for a LP, it is stupid. You will get a slam fire out of battery.
I will not cuss you here so forget it, The mods should look at you and your attitude.
I will continue to post against anything dangerous, put 23 gr of 296 behind a 300 gr .44 bullet---NO, NO, NO so do you defend that.
Safety has hurt me most.
You do not understand spin stability at all but we used to talk and you agreed with me, then it fell apart. I said you were wrong and that will stand forever. You really are wrong about twist, velocity and stability. If you think spin is the same from a 2" barrel as it is from 7-1/2", I wonder who will listen to you.

Kicked off when I said a process was stupid but it was taken as against personal to a man that I never did. If you use a LR primer in a revolver like a .44 or a LR primer in a .500 case made for a LP, it is stupid. You will get a slam fire out of battery.
I will not cuss you here so forget it, The mods should look at you and your attitude.
I will continue to post against anything dangerous, put 23 gr of 296 behind a 300 gr .44 bullet---NO, NO, NO so do you defend that.
Safety has hurt me most.
You do not understand spin stability at all but we used to talk and you agreed with me, then it fell apart. I said you were wrong and that will stand forever. You really are wrong about twist, velocity and stability. If you think spin is the same from a 2" barrel as it is from 7-1/2", I wonder who will listen to you. [/quote]


Spin rate doesn’t change with barrel length, 1 in 24 is the same no matter the barrel length. THERE ARE NO MARGINALY SPIN BARRELS ON CURRENTLY MADE REVOLVERS. Therefore your claim is irrelevant.

If your vagina still hurts tak 2 midol

Wrong. Been down this road. Sure any short barrel can leave some velocity on the table as well as some unburnt powder, but what does it matter exactly? There isnt an animal walking this earth that wouldnt fall to the 4" 500 with the correct bullet and placement. You act as if a short barreled handguns are useless. Over the years I've had short barrel rifles and handguns be more accurate than ones with longer barrels. Not saying thats always the case, but point is they work. Choosing the proper powder will help. I have a 454 alaskan that will shoot handloaded 360 gr a little over 1100fps. Will shoot through just about anything and is accurate out as far as I can shoot. Please show me where I'm handicapped by using short barrels.

Absolutely correct JWP

This may be the most incorrect thing I've read in some time. So you are saying that a 335 gr bullet, fired from a colt needs to be run 1150 or faster for accuracy? Thats laughable

Spin is important so a loss of velocity will reduce spin. This is a 330 gr .44 at 50 yards at 1100 FPS. Would I shoot at a deer?

A .454 at 1800 FPS spins at 54,000 RPM's so the 2" barrel at 1100 is 33,000. twist does not matter? Just maybe it does.

No velocity loss does not reduce spin rate. 1 in 24 is always 1 in 24. Loss of velocity reduces RPM’s but, for that to have a meaningful effect the bullet would have to be on the ragged edge of stability to begin with and that is not the case.

Show your math.

Math is easy, RPM = MV X 720 divided by twist.A 405 gr at 1200 FPS will get you 36,000 RPM's. A 335 gr at 1160 FPS in a .45 Colt is 52,200 RPM's. I don't see Whitworth with a 2" barrel so let's look at a 200 FPS loss in the .45. 43,200 RPM's. Get to 800 FPS in a 2" 1 in 24" barrel and see 24,000. You say twist has no meaning in a revolver. Sorry, you are wrong.

So now you are claiming a bullet with 1160 FPS has more rpm’s than a bullet at 1200 fps, WOW JUST WOW!

Actually the bullet at 1160 fps has a rpm of 34,800. You are so wrong it’s ridiculous

What pressure does a .45 335 gr need to get to 1160 FPS in 2"? The .44 at 1316 FPS with a 330 gr in 2"? You can't do it. You can't reach spin without velocity. Even in the old days BP rifles would reach 48" to burn the powder. Not gone in an inch.

What the hell is your affection to 2” barrels? No one has claimed that barrel length can’t affect velocity, but it is not the only factor than affects velocity.

Why are you talking about black powder?

Powder burning in an inch or so doesn’t stop the expanding gases from continuing to excelerate the bullet down the barrel. The fact is pressure peaks near instantly and immediately begins to lower as the bullet moves down the barrel. None of this has anything to do with black powder.

It sure does because because the .45 Colt has a faster twist of 1 in 16". See the formula where you divide by twist?
Look at my BFR 45-70 at 1630 FPS with a 1 in 14" twist. WOW, 82,829 RPM's. You look worse and worse the more you post. The BFR .500 JRH with a 1 in 15" is 64,800. The .460 S&W has a gain twist so you will also say if cut to 2" it will spin the same. Even fairy land can't make up the stuff you do.

Geez you can’t stay on point. Whitworth shot the 45 Colt 405 grain load from Garret cartridge in a Ruger 454 with a 1 in 24 twist and the bullet was stabile under 1200 FPS.if You want to go to a 16 twist then it’s even more stabie. Thanks!. You aren’t doing yourself any favors.

I know I'm probably reaching to find a way to communicate, but I'll give it a go. Bullet acceleration is based on the area of the pressure/time curve, not the peak pressure. That's why a load with bullseye at 40 kpsi is going to be slower than a load with H-110 at 40 kpsi, assuming we're talking about a magnum cartridge because there is less area under the curve.

Here's a generic pressure/time curve I pulled off the net



The faster the powder, the quicker the peak pressure is generated. The shorter the barrel, the less time the bullet is being accelerated by the expanding gasses because there is less area under the time/pressure curve to accelerate the bullet.

But in the majority of cases, the peak pressure is achieved and the pressure starts dropping before the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe in the case of a short handgun barrel the bullet is in the barrel for 0.0006 seconds and in the case of a long barrel 0.0007 seconds.

As I stated before and 475 keeps beating on, current revolvers will stabilize heavy for caliber bullets at 1000 fps or less. Whether you choose a 2" snubby for ~1100 fps, a 5" for ~1200 fps or a 10" for ~1400 fps doesn't matter. In every case the bullet is rotated to sufficient rpm to be stable.

If you've had accuracy problems with short barreled revolvers or at lower velocities, bullet rotational stability was not the culprit. One magic load in one gun does not make one an expert on revolver accuracy. The more guns I Ioad for, the more I learn and the less inclined I am to make absolute statements.

Powder burns down the barrel and adds to pressure. After all the powder is consumed no more is added. It is why a load of Bullseye will never equal a load of 296. Why do we have all burn rates. NO when the powder is gone, gas will not expand more. It is GONE. Fill a large tire with a 3 gallon compressor and you must turn it on again. It runs out of air volume. Try to run an impact gun with 3 gallons but your gun is magic. When I need air I turn on the 60 gallon and when I need gas in a gun I shoot a slower powder. I put wood in the stove for heat and when it is gone, the stove gets cold. But I suppose you can run your truck on empty too. It is all the same, you need fuel.

You truly do not understand! Pressure trace show the lowering of pressure. Bullseyes pressure peaks with a much lower energy level so at the same pressure velocity is less because of Less volume of gas to excelerate the bullet. The powder with the most energy will peak its pressure with a greater volume of gas. But you can’t comprehend the reality of it.

I think everyone would like to hear about your 1” 500 groups with revolver. It’s about time don’t you think.

Sometimes someone will find you don't know a thing but you want to be the best with more knowledge but you fail. Nothing is better then experience and testing. Nobody has tested more then I have. 64 years with revolvers and you know more. NOT.

Tell us about you 1” groups at 500 yards, we all want to hear about those. Which revolver did you use? What scope? Inquiring minds want to know.

How many deer have you killed?

No, best was 2-1/2" sorry for your lies. I never claimed what I did not do. I don't think you ever shot more then 10 feet. I was shooting the .44 at near 600 yards in 1956 and breaking rocks on a RR berm off hand. My chuck gun was the Flat Top to 100 and the .222 to 300 and the .220 to farther. I hit 1" targets at 100 with my S&W 27 at 100 before you seen light and got spanked. 358156 HP with 2400. You have no idea.
Run out of gas and you can't push a bullet more.

There is a world of difference between 64 years of knowledge and 1 year of knowledge repeated for 64 years. You don't seem to have the most basic grasp of how the expanding gas from burning gunpowder accelerates a bullet, nor how a bullet is spin stabilized.

Around 560 with maybe 190 with revolvers. Got 5 this season but 2 with a cross bow since shoulder injuries came back. Rest with the .44 SBH. What did you do? I am not rich so can't shoot bigger. I would not kill what I won't eat and give deer away since I only keep 2. They must tag them too. Deer do not get moved without a tag and the properties I hunt, the owners do not need a license. I don't need one either because of age.
I hunted with unlimited tags on farms and orchards with deer damage. Go to an orchard and get a pile of tags but the best was all the apples and free cider we could bring home. At one we were woken up since the workers were gone. Help fill a trailer with apples. Woman driver with the tractor trailer, don't know how she backed into the dock. We got on the fork lifts and loaded the trailer. John, you have no idea the friends we had. All the way from Cleveland to the river. Never needed to ask to hunt, Pull the trailer into the farm and then we were allowed to sleep in the houses. Do you know what it is like to toss a sleeping bag in front of a fireplace at a farm? No, you sure don't. You are full of hate. I love my friends and you would be welcome at my home too. I refuse to hate you. We can get along but it is up to you. Why do you keep pounding on me? I would love to call you but I am afraid and will not call Whitworth for the same reason. It would not be well. People here see what you do and it is not good. Do you have a friend at all?

2 1/2” groups from a revolver at 500 yards! My mistake on the size. That is amazing .4 moa. Many rifles can’t shoot that at 500 yards. You are truly amazing! My hats off to you

Wow.

It's OK. I never made the 45-70 rifle shoot that good either. Can it be the twist rate?

Oh I do. a charge of powder has a finite amount of gas. it does not keep pushing when pressure decreases. Look at the small .22 with a barrel too long, the velocity will go down when the powder is gone and so will a BP rifle with too much powder..
Stability is the proper spin for each bullet so when they went to a longer bullet in the AR why did they increase the twist?
I worked revolver bullets to the right velocity and it is the same as any other gun.

Oh yes it does.

Consider two 44 magnum loads which produce the same peak pressure. One uses Bullseye and the other uses H110. Which will produce the higher velocity? H110 of course. Why? It is precisely because there is more gas at higher pressure to keep pushing even though the pressure has decreased below peak level.

Maybe you should just tell about shooting .4 MOA at 500 yards with a revolver, I think we all want to hear more.

I've been on DMAP programs for 20+ years, and helped with local authorities in areas requiring depredation to reduce deer populations. I have not killed half that many deer. I have a biologist friend with the state game department who has killed for the same reasons and for science and I doubt he has killed that many. The figure you claim would be over 11 deer per year for 50 years. This statement combined with your other BS spewed here leads me to believe that you are about as full of schit as any poster in the history of this forum.

Thank you for making my point. It's apparent you've read a few articles but really don't grasp the fundamentals.

The “right velocity” is this known throughout the industry? Did you patent this, so other can’t steal it?

This is the correct answer

Very good explanation!

bfrshooter, you should look at this pressure curve and notice the red line.

Testing various powders in the shorter barrels has resulted in unburned powder on the bench, snow and in the brass. The same powders in a rifle will all burn. Even seen it with 10" barrels but go to a single shot with a 15" and it will burn. Depending on the powder it indeed needs more length. Too much powder needs longer. Even BP will not all burn and Pyrodex is even a better example if compressed too much. Friend wanted more velocity so he added more and more with the result of the powder adding to the bullet weight, shooting slower and plugs came out of his 34" barrel to burn in the grass. Looked like a flare gun and we had to worry about a brush fire. Now they make pellets for inlines, had trouble at first so they put a hole through them and went to shotgun primers.
As for deer, back then some butchers cut the deer to donate to churches and food banks but now the hunter has to pay the processing. I have a friend that takes an average 17 deer a year to feed the poor. My brother in law still donates meat and will have an entire deer made into jerky on his dime to send to our troops overseas. No meat goes to waste and now my extra deer goes to the landowners. They come here and I skin, quarter and they sit and clean meat and wrap. I grind burger for them.
The average price to get a deer cut here is $70 so we do our own. I get the privilege to hunt all the properties here.
Long ago, there were few deer in Ohio and only one could be shot a season except in Ravena arsenal. Army ammunition depot. They wanted as many shot as you could but could only take one home. I gave away so many deer it was crazy. Then they trapped deer from the arsenal and from Plumbrook to spread them everywhere. The herd exploded. Driving past the fence at Plumbrook it was nothing to see herds of 40 bucks so they had a hunt. You were assigned and area that you did not leave and there were test deer with orange collars that were not to be shot. Secret squirrel place, NASA. Hunters did not follow rules and they stopped it. Trapped deer instead. Deer became a problem. When I shot a deer the farmer would tell me to come back and get more. In PA farmers shot any deer in the fields, gut shot so they ran into the woods to die and go to waste. Then in hunting season they never seen any. A non resident in PA never got a doe tag, Hunting camps bought them all and threw them in the fire. To see a buck was luck and it was nothing to count 80 does walk past. You don't know!

Why do you bring black powder and black powder substitutes into this, they are not realavent.

You truly need to seriously look at this post by 458LOTT and studying the graph and try to comprehend his post.




You are so far off on this that you are making yourself a laughing stock.

Twist in handguns is ignored, any bullet needs a certain spin. My heavy bullet in the .44 needs 47,376 rpm's at 1316 FPS. Slow it to 1100 FPS and get 39,600. You say 900 FPS is stable with 32,400 because barrel length does not matter because twist is the same.
Velocity determines spin. I want to see the magic 4" barrel reach the velocity needed. Case full of Bullseye? My favorite load was the 240 XTP with 24 gr of 296. 10-1/2" barrel or 8-3/8" S&W down to a 7-1/2". You know it is over 1430 FPS with a spin of 51,480. Yes I was 1/2 gr over max book. But it is where it shot. Will you burn 24 gr of 296 in a 2" barrel? Will you reach spin?
OH, I see, the twist is the same???? Spin must be the same at any speed. Do you see the huge muzzle flash as your powder burns out front? The net must be correct.
I was given Gun Digest books to see more perfect information ever. My hat is off to the writers that explain the way it is from muzzle energy and bullet construction to spin. Refreshing to see truth. I recommend them and Whitworth's books too. Best darn shooter and hunter I knew.
Sorry John, anyone that listens to you will be happy to shoot a .500 at 20 yards. You should read the new writers. Here is a quote from one, Weird thing is, I have seen rifles that won't print better the 1-1/2" at 100 yards but shoot better at 200 and 300 yards. What have I said? Over spin or under spin. Why do BFR's shoot better then any revolvers ever made. Seems to be spin.

You clearly do not understand the reigniting as the powder it is exposed to oxygen as it leaves the barrel.

You clearly have not studied the graph posted by 458LOTT and do not grasp the information it provides.

Let me simplify this for you. Take a portable air tank fill it with air to its maxb pressure, this is your “chamber pressure” disconnect the tank from the compressor (all the powder is burnt) now connect the portable tank to your tire and inflate it. The pressure immediately starts to drop yet as the pressure in the tank is dropping the tire continues to inflate (excellerating the bullet)

Is it more clear now?

A bullet that shots 1 1/2” at 100 yards can’t get on track to shoot better at longer range unless it has a guidance system, which it doesn’t. Brain Lietz has totally disapproved that myth.

Because powder is powder. All have a burn rate. Powder is coated to slow burn and yes even BP is coated. But how about no coating at all like some shotgun powders and all the shapes of powders to change burn time. Most powder has the same composition but shape and coatings change. Stick powders can be solid or have a hole through them.
Lil'gun has little, made for the 410 and can destroy a forcing cone with heat. If you think 3031 is a different powder then 4831, got news for you. It is shape and coatings that slow the burn so powder adds to push down the bore. If what you say is true why not use 4831 in the .44 or .357? Should get to pressure in an inch and reach velocity. Happy days are here with just one powder for anything. You can shoot 150 gr of FFFFG in your muzzle loader. Your hand and steel will say different.
You know nothing about powders at all. Had a jug of powder made for the .50 BMG I could not use, gave it back But you all say it will work in a .44 mag with a 4" barrel. What woodwork did you crawl out of? Why do we have thousands of powders when one will work? All goes off in an inch but some has more gas. So does a double load of Bullseye with you getting your hand put back on.
It is not peak pressure or where it is. It is more burn to push. Put 4831 in your .44 and show the rest of us. Stick the net charts where the sun does not shine.

This is the most convoluted nonsense I have ever read. Comparing black powder to smokeless powder is like comparing apples to spinach.

WOW just WOW. You get sillier with every post. You clearly have no clue and do not mind publishing that fact.

Nobody said what you're claiming they did. You're projecting your own erroneous interpretation of what they said onto the conversation.

Not true at all. Over spin will enlarge a group at close range and a bullet will "go to sleep" when spin and velocity matches. Have you really shot guns? My .220 would never do better then 3" at 100 yards but shot 1/4" at 350 yards. There is a dark spot where sun doesn't shine. Stop reading and do some work. I bet you follow Taffin too.

I'm pretty sure they make medication for your condition, but not being a psychiatrist nor having ever been under the care of one I have no clue as to what that would be.

If you can’t comprehend them, then by all means take the ostrich approach, bury your head in the sand.

Please explain how a bullet with a near 1 1/2 moa dispersion corrects that disposition as it goes down range? Does the bullet “going to sleep” add some type of guidance system to the bullet?

The sand makes more sense then you do.

What is the sand telling you?

It won't drown out the other voices.

It says you are deeper in the sand. Longer neck and can't find a shellfish.

Do you hear other voices?

You are too stupid to understand.

jwp, you are a bright man, why waste your time????

He hates me. Proved all he said wrong. BRIGHT? Shiny butt.

It is because you have not watched bullets go down range with a scope. It can be seen. Go read more internet junk. Some sit inside barrels to tell you what happens.

What do you smoke in Jefferson Co.. You post some silly crap, sorry, but that is the way it is..

I see that you have achieved where others have failed. Please share your knowledge of the type guidance system that you are use that can steer a bullet on a divergence of just under 3 MOA at 100 yards to where the angular divergence narrows to less than a tenth of a MOA?

Is it wire guided or laser?

Could you consolidate your proof into one post please. Can’t wait to read the proof. Thanks.

Silly? It is from real work. Actual work and not from bluffers that claim what they do with no proof. Smoke is in the air from keyboards punched hard. I tell all to come here and shoot what I give you and you will out shoot me. It is not me but what works.Will you show what you do? No pictures, strange if you are so good. Another internet troll.

Is this where you post pictures of cans with holes in them as proof? WOW, that is really credible! You really are a simpleton.

Oh I see the smoke, but where is the proof that you claim of proving me as well as others in this thread wrong?

Since smoke screen.

Is your proof a picture of a can with a hole in it?

You are wrong but to prove is not easy since you need to come here to shoot better and you will. You will shoot better then I can because of age. Do you think I care? I help and wan't you to shoot better. The most important thing is to make all of you better, NOT to be more important. The most worst thing is to not help others because you want to be best. What a rat can you be?
listen to internet bluffers and say I am wrong, PROVE IT, You never will. Every single thing I have ever said is to make you better and you can cuss me all you want but big heads have not liked it and got me tossed. See how some can't take it? I am the biggest burr in the saddle ever. JWP is a hole in the bucket and will never tell you how to make a gun shoot. Every thing he says is from somebody else and not a single thing he did.

You could not hit a can at 20 yards. Whitwrorth seen me shoot a can at 200 yards. Not bags but Creedmore. What do you want? how about 5 shots in a can at 100 yards. Top hole for 5 shots.

you will never make a revolver shoot unless you use my methods. I see some suck your behind. Not going to help. None of them will ever shoot.

I don’t “make” my revolvers shoot, I ask them to shoot. They respond to kindness.

Are you inviting me to read more of your internet posts?

I'm gonna be a dead man by the 6 o'clock news, this thread is killing me.

You use Whitworth like a battle armor shield.

What I want is more about the 2 1/2” revolver groups at 200 yards. I also want to know more about the guidance system on those bullets that shoot 3” groups at 100 yards that magically shrink to 1/4” at 350 yards. Those two are ground breaking.

I do not use Whitworth at all, He will make you sick. But he shot here. You are an ant in the shorts

How will Whitworth make me sick? Is he contagious?

This is a great thread

I was going to post something here about my .500 S&W, but I guess I've come to the wrong thread. Damn computer, got me screwed up again.

John is the furthest from an internet troll. All your spouting is just proving you dont know what in the hell you are talking about. You can fall back on your years of experience, but that doesnt make you right. ALOT of us on here have years of real life experience too. There comes a time when one should just listen instead of always running ones mouth. I've learned a ton from others, as well as my own experiences.

What I am saying is he is good and us old cronies can't do what he can anymore. Yes I need a rest now. I would say you do too.

, i'm stopping right here ;]

You must keep reading, the knowledge gained here could save your life one day.


If you are out in the wilds and you get lost, you're starving and freezing, basically clinging to life and then you remember this thread and you start laughing about all BS posted in this one. The laughter warms you up and the noise of your laughter allows the search party to find you.

Yes, but me living inside the barrel is gonna fugg the rest of it up.

Out of sheer curiosity I looked into some of this topic and found this:

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...at-long-range-than-it-is-at-short-range/

Granted this article concerns rifles but makes seems a bit inconclusive and in any case seems to require very specific circumstances.

Is BFR actually just Boxer/BS when he's sober? Just curious.

Scope parallax can result in what some have erroneously referred to as "bullets going to sleep" A rifle with a scope that doesn't have parallax issues will show a fairly linear dispersion of the group as the range increases.

Until someone shows me a target that was used as the aiming point and shot at at 100 yds, with backers at 200 and 300 yds that show tighter groups at 200 and 300 yds, I call utter bs on the going to sleep myth.

In gun lore there are many theories that get thrown about to describe phenomena people don't understand, and it gets repeated by those who don't understand but want to appear like they do.

What a goat rope...... I know a couple of folks that have four inch Smith 500s. They like them a lot. I'm tempted to buy one also just because of the fun factor. And I've already got a 5 inch 500 Linebaugh and am building a 4 5/8 on a bisley vaquero. To much fun these big guns, but I don't shoot from a rest and I enjoy my life in the Beartooths

Brian Lietz did that and found no rifle that shot smaller groups at distance than at 100. Groups are measure in minutes of angle angles doesn’t shrink with distance.

How many people have to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about before you start believing them? How many forums have you been banned from for arguing this stupidity about twist rate? You can shoot. You can cast. You can handload. Your observations are accurate. It's your analysis of what you observed that is retarded. Your logic is fatally flawed.

I got an article on just this from Precision Shooting. I'll go look.

Precision Shooting has always been my bible for any Shooting question.

This is just objectively false and relies on the wrong analogies. Moving or expanding gas (or other things) can continue moving or expanding after the energy source no longer is operative. For example, if you blow on a little sailboat, the air you blew at it will continue to exert force on it and move it for some brief period after your breath has ceased. If you ignite a stick of dynamite, there is a ripple effect, in which even after the initial explosion is silenced, the outward pressure continues. If you push a toy car uphill, it will continue to move uphill for a brief period even after you stopped touching it. If you have a long-enough barrel, after the powder has completely burned, the gas expanding from that ignition will continue to push outward for some time. After the powder burning itself is over, the expanding gas itself has energy that takes time to do its work--move something (the bullet).

What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that the bullet itself no longer pushes anything after the powder burns or it leaves the barrel. Nope, it keep on impacting the air or other matter (including game or wet newspaper) in front of its trajectory, just like the gases sent into motion by a burning powder push even after the burning is over.

Of course, what powder you use, the bullet weight and construction, and the barrel length, etc. ... matter, but the expanding/moving gas does not stop the instant the burning stops any more than the bullet itself stops moving,

Once powder is gone, there is no more pressure to be had. powder that is left after peak will just sustain pressure, not make it more. It flattens the curve. Gas is limited when powder is all gone. It will drop to zero but some more powder will add gas. But out in the air with a short barrel does not add push. A .44 mag with a 2" barrel is a loud .44 special with less velocity.
A .500 with a 4"barrel at 100 +. get real. Your keyboard smokes.

Wrong again. Not a friggin' clue.

Prove it. Please show 100 yard groups.I don't want to see 10' groups either but show 100+ yard deer shot. The keyboard smokes again.
You are a joke like JWP.

Nope. The burning powder results in gas particles (the molecules) exploding outward. It’s like millions of molecule-sized baseballs being blown toward the bullet. All of those particles have energy and momentum. They push on whatever they are forced up against (in this case the rear of the bullet). If the barrel is long enough relative to the charge, the gas molecules will no longer accelerate the bullet (push it faster than it already is going), and then it has no effect. But, up until that point, and after the energy source (the burning of the powder) is done, those particles continue to push outward against the base of the bullet.

Analogy: When you throw a baseball, the only energy source pushing the baseball outward is the contact with the throwing hand. But long after the ball has left the hand, it continues to expand outward. And if the baseball, after it has been released, hits the back of a bullet, it will push that bullet in the same direction. Gas molecules are just like very little and lightweight baseballs, by the millions or billions. They continue to push on whatever they hit even after they are “thrown” (the powder burning ends). The burning does not still need to be occurring in order for the exploding gas molecules thereafter to move something (a bullet base) in front of it. This is very basic physics.

If you run a truck while fueled at 90 mph, and then it runs out of gas, the truck briefly will be able to push something in front of it forward (e.g., slamming into Prius) even though the gas previously has been burned off. It's the moving truck that matters, not its engine that made it move in the first place.

I hope JB does not mind me posting this link. It is a great read, and a few here need a refresher....
Cut copy and paste....

https://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Bench%20Topics%20LR%20(2).pdf

BFR, you really are proving every time you post that you really are clueless. To post something like that proves you really are all hot air. Seriously, its sad

From the library of Princeton University. Go to Arms and the Man. I can't copy and paste it. It tells you exactly how powder burns. Google books.

Most of what is left of burning powder is Carbon monoxide and it burns but with a blue flame.
Maybe you should do some research. Powder companies tell me you are wrong.

What's the point? You either won't get it, will say I'm lying or you'll just ignore it, like you do with every other contrary piece of evidence. Just as you ignored Whit's test results with the 405gr .45Colt load in the 1-24" twist .454. Which to me, is the most compelling evidence to prove how wrong you are about all your twist rate nonsense.

The point is I am correct so let's go through Whitworth's new book. From the start we agree with everything from velocity, energy and on, might be only 3 small points I will Question, not important at all. But these are the same things I posted for years and years and every single one was disputed by JWP, leading to arguing. Now Withworth says the same as I did but JWP does not go after him.
Now both of you have some explaining to do. Go to page 212 and see a picture of Whitworth sighting his .500 JRH.
THAT IS MY BENCH AND I TOOK THE PICTURE WITH WHITS PHONE! Now who in the heck is V. Ricadel? I sure never seen him on my range and have no idea who he is. Hey Whit explain that lie to me. Some of the penetration tests we did are shown wrong, I have the full list right in front of me. But I don't care about a few inches. But who is that guy that sneaked on my range?

Actually Whit and I were testing loads on that day, not sighting in. We used the bullet I designed and made the mold for. Just working loads and I shot this at 50 yards.

What the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with your hair brained theory about twist rate? You said 405's in the .45 and 355's in the .44 won't work. We proved it did. Respond to that with something relevant and coherent or go back to the cheap whiskey.

Oh my! A picture of a target with a hole in. Wow! +P+.

, Gotdamn, where are my BC powders?!

Maybe you should shoot the guns without wearing out the keyboards. Twist is not my theory at all, it is proven.
Quote by Steelhead, I'd suck a dog's dick..., maybe the dog will teach you something. Steelhead must have experience too.
Ignorance was born with the net.
Will Whitworth explain who V. Ricadel is. He thought I would never see that so he made up a name to keep me out.
My invite is always open, bring your smooth bore rifles or 3" revolvers here and I will have a crew of cameras to to record you.
You proved nothing, you only quote what Whit said So show what a .405 gr .45 does at 50 yards or more and also the 355 in the .44. I care less about 10 yards.
Your lead crown is melting, really made out of Alox, lead is too good for you. I call you JWP JR. I have more choice words but not allowed unless you pay to keep your place.

LOL you cant make this chit up

I’d settle for him to explain who/what you are. LMAO

My groups get bigger the farther out i shoot, I gotta buy some new chit!

You’ll have to buy whatever it is that bfrshooter is drinking.

I've been doing it wrong all along, who knew?

Nothing that you've spewed about twist rate is proven anywhere but your own mind. I guess you think you're the only one that, "does the work". You operate in a vacuum and fabricate your own reality. Our experience and the Berger twist rate calculator prove you wrong. You have provided no evidence, only poorly formed opinions.

What is the nonsense about smoothbores and 3" guns???

Whit already posted pics of groups shot with the 405's.

I got three inch groups at 100yds with the 355gr. This is what it does at 50yds with a Hunter model that almost always shoots into two distinct clusters. I don't take pictures of every group I shoot so this will have to suffice. Of course, this is the internet, it could be anything. I also get straight line penetration and so far, the only thing that beats it is the 330gr LFN or the copper/bronze solids. I guess I need to order a box of the 405's to shoot out of my FA, with its 1-24" twist, just to shut you up but I suspect that would be a waste of good money.




Group shot with the 340gr out of the SRH.

Yeah Whit asked where the rest were until he seen all were touching. He has never, ever shown that group because he did not shoot it.
Now I will tell you something he never admitted to. He got a .500 S&W to test and could buy at cost. It doubled on him on the NRA range and he took out lights overhead. He was afraid he would be fired. I told him it was an easy fix but he sent the gun back and now S&W agrees and will send free cylinder stop springs. They found I was correct. They called it "shooter error", not true at all.
Sorry Whitworth, maybe you should tell the truth too. Just who knew what the problem was? You never told that story did you? How it is out there for all to see. You sure did not want me to tell the world either. Why don't you show all the pictures of S&W cylinder unlocking and turning backwards? Tell all about your 29 that would not open after heavy bullets peened the rod in the cylinder and I had to beat a chunk of wood and hammer to open the gun. When will truth come out? Why don't you tell the imposters what you learned from me? Mr. John Parker turned you into an enemy. But you have to held to account too. How much should I spill?
CraigC has a hole as does JWP that really fits if they bend far enough.
Who is V. Ricadel? I can go through the book, page by page if you wish but I lent it to a friend so he gets a good laugh. The truth is you push stuff like all gun writers to get free and hunt where all of us can not since you advertise. You dare not say bad about anything. A life of lies. It is when I refused to lie that we parted. I will never aid anyone by telling a lie. You really did use what I said but it was open from me. Just to help. Then you make believe it was your thoughts. I am still your GO FER. You still do not know how bad it was when you called JWP on my range and left me out. I was the stupid GO FER. Carol loved you and your wife but now she asks what happened to you.

JWP, why don't you go away or get tossed. Is it what you pay to the site?

Why bring whit into this you retard? You are seriously unhinged. I know its all a conspiracy against you and your massive book of knowledge that you have stored through all your years of testing. You really should stop. Have someone read your posts back to you. It may help you understand how far you have fallen off the deep end. Or it wont.

What the hell are you rambling on about? Same ole, same ole. Someone posts evidence that contradicts your nonsense and you ignore it while going on an unrelated rant.

Just to clarify, I was kicking your ass on SingleActions and WDIL before ever having any contact with Whit. Actually, it's because of what YOU posted, betraying the trust of your supposed friend, that I even contacted him. There's no collusion here, you have several people independently calling you out on your nonsense. No one is taking up for you. It's not personal but some folks feel compelled to respond when they see such misinformation posted as fact.

Why don't you start your own thread about your man-crush on Whit?

Whit was a good friend and was welcome all the the time. I proved him wrong but JWP stepped in. Where were you on the SA site? You never kicked my ass. My beef on the SA site was Taffin and the Freedom revolvers. You were not there.
I was invited to We Deal In Lead and was a moderator. and you were not allowed in. My friend Jay Gibson even made my own forum. He died and things changed to keep the site running. Went to Triggernometry but it is gone now. You were never on WDIL, That was Jay Gibson's site. JWP tried to sneak in and was tossed. You lie as much as JWP. If anyone believes you they shoot a cork gun.

Dumbass, we went round and round with you on SA.com, where I've been since the beginning. I was a moderator on WDIL and left because Jay was drinking your Kool Aid. I was even invited back after Jay threw his tantrum and left. Are you senile too???





All of which has NOTHING to do with this thread!!!!!!!!!

Are you still pissed that Craig's wife found black cock before your [bleep] of a wife?