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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12 |
Sometimes someone will find you don't know a thing but you want to be the best with more knowledge but you fail. Nothing is better then experience and testing. Nobody has tested more then I have. 64 years with revolvers and you know more. NOT. There is a world of difference between 64 years of knowledge and 1 year of knowledge repeated for 64 years. You don't seem to have the most basic grasp of how the expanding gas from burning gunpowder accelerates a bullet, nor how a bullet is spin stabilized. Oh I do. a charge of powder has a finite amount of gas. it does not keep pushing when pressure decreases. Look at the small .22 with a barrel too long, the velocity will go down when the powder is gone and so will a BP rifle with too much powder.. Stability is the proper spin for each bullet so when they went to a longer bullet in the AR why did they increase the twist? I worked revolver bullets to the right velocity and it is the same as any other gun. Oh yes it does. Consider two 44 magnum loads which produce the same peak pressure. One uses Bullseye and the other uses H110. Which will produce the higher velocity? H110 of course. Why? It is precisely because there is more gas at higher pressure to keep pushing even though the pressure has decreased below peak level.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Sometimes someone will find you don't know a thing but you want to be the best with more knowledge but you fail. Nothing is better then experience and testing. Nobody has tested more then I have. 64 years with revolvers and you know more. NOT. There is a world of difference between 64 years of knowledge and 1 year of knowledge repeated for 64 years. You don't seem to have the most basic grasp of how the expanding gas from burning gunpowder accelerates a bullet, nor how a bullet is spin stabilized. Oh I do. a charge of powder has a finite amount of gas. it does not keep pushing when pressure decreases. Look at the small .22 with a barrel too long, the velocity will go down when the powder is gone and so will a BP rifle with too much powder.. Stability is the proper spin for each bullet so when they went to a longer bullet in the AR why did they increase the twist? I worked revolver bullets to the right velocity and it is the same as any other gun. Maybe you should just tell about shooting .4 MOA at 500 yards with a revolver, I think we all want to hear more.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,601
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,601 |
How many deer have you killed?
Around 560 with maybe 190 with revolvers. I've been on DMAP programs for 20+ years, and helped with local authorities in areas requiring depredation to reduce deer populations. I have not killed half that many deer. I have a biologist friend with the state game department who has killed for the same reasons and for science and I doubt he has killed that many. The figure you claim would be over 11 deer per year for 50 years. This statement combined with your other BS spewed here leads me to believe that you are about as full of schit as any poster in the history of this forum.
Nut
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
Sometimes someone will find you don't know a thing but you want to be the best with more knowledge but you fail. Nothing is better then experience and testing. Nobody has tested more then I have. 64 years with revolvers and you know more. NOT. There is a world of difference between 64 years of knowledge and 1 year of knowledge repeated for 64 years. You don't seem to have the most basic grasp of how the expanding gas from burning gunpowder accelerates a bullet, nor how a bullet is spin stabilized. Oh I do. a charge of powder has a finite amount of gas. it does not keep pushing when pressure decreases. Look at the small .22 with a barrel too long, the velocity will go down when the powder is gone and so will a BP rifle with too much powder.. Stability is the proper spin for each bullet so when they went to a longer bullet in the AR why did they increase the twist? I worked revolver bullets to the right velocity and it is the same as any other gun. Thank you for making my point. It's apparent you've read a few articles but really don't grasp the fundamentals.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
I worked revolver bullets to the right velocity and it is the same as any other gun.
The “right velocity” is this known throughout the industry? Did you patent this, so other can’t steal it?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,050 Likes: 41
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,050 Likes: 41 |
Spin is important so a loss of velocity will reduce spin. This is a 330 gr .44 at 50 yards at 1100 FPS. Would I shoot at a deer? No velocity loss does not reduce spin rate. 1 in 24 is always 1 in 24. Loss of velocity reduces RPM’s but, for that to have a meaningful effect the bullet would have to be on the ragged edge of stability to begin with and that is not the case. This is the correct answer
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,050 Likes: 41
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 12,050 Likes: 41 |
What pressure does a .45 335 gr need to get to 1160 FPS in 2"? The .44 at 1316 FPS with a 330 gr in 2"? You can't do it. You can't reach spin without velocity. Even in the old days BP rifles would reach 48" to burn the powder. Not gone in an inch. I know I'm probably reaching to find a way to communicate, but I'll give it a go. Bullet acceleration is based on the area of the pressure/time curve, not the peak pressure. That's why a load with bullseye at 40 kpsi is going to be slower than a load with H-110 at 40 kpsi, assuming we're talking about a magnum cartridge because there is less area under the curve. Here's a generic pressure/time curve I pulled off the net ![[Linked Image]](http://www.varmintal.com/pressure-vs-time-57400.png) The faster the powder, the quicker the peak pressure is generated. The shorter the barrel, the less time the bullet is being accelerated by the expanding gasses because there is less area under the time/pressure curve to accelerate the bullet. But in the majority of cases, the peak pressure is achieved and the pressure starts dropping before the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe in the case of a short handgun barrel the bullet is in the barrel for 0.0006 seconds and in the case of a long barrel 0.0007 seconds. As I stated before and 475 keeps beating on, current revolvers will stabilize heavy for caliber bullets at 1000 fps or less. Whether you choose a 2" snubby for ~1100 fps, a 5" for ~1200 fps or a 10" for ~1400 fps doesn't matter. In every case the bullet is rotated to sufficient rpm to be stable. If you've had accuracy problems with short barreled revolvers or at lower velocities, bullet rotational stability was not the culprit. One magic load in one gun does not make one an expert on revolver accuracy. The more guns I Ioad for, the more I learn and the less inclined I am to make absolute statements. Very good explanation!
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
What pressure does a .45 335 gr need to get to 1160 FPS in 2"? The .44 at 1316 FPS with a 330 gr in 2"? You can't do it. You can't reach spin without velocity. Even in the old days BP rifles would reach 48" to burn the powder. Not gone in an inch. I know I'm probably reaching to find a way to communicate, but I'll give it a go. Bullet acceleration is based on the area of the pressure/time curve, not the peak pressure. That's why a load with bullseye at 40 kpsi is going to be slower than a load with H-110 at 40 kpsi, assuming we're talking about a magnum cartridge because there is less area under the curve. Here's a generic pressure/time curve I pulled off the net The faster the powder, the quicker the peak pressure is generated. The shorter the barrel, the less time the bullet is being accelerated by the expanding gasses because there is less area under the time/pressure curve to accelerate the bullet. But in the majority of cases, the peak pressure is achieved and the pressure starts dropping before the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe in the case of a short handgun barrel the bullet is in the barrel for 0.0006 seconds and in the case of a long barrel 0.0007 seconds. As I stated before and 475 keeps beating on, current revolvers will stabilize heavy for caliber bullets at 1000 fps or less. Whether you choose a 2" snubby for ~1100 fps, a 5" for ~1200 fps or a 10" for ~1400 fps doesn't matter. In every case the bullet is rotated to sufficient rpm to be stable. If you've had accuracy problems with short barreled revolvers or at lower velocities, bullet rotational stability was not the culprit. One magic load in one gun does not make one an expert on revolver accuracy. The more guns I Ioad for, the more I learn and the less inclined I am to make absolute statements. bfrshooter, you should look at this pressure curve and notice the red line.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676 |
Testing various powders in the shorter barrels has resulted in unburned powder on the bench, snow and in the brass. The same powders in a rifle will all burn. Even seen it with 10" barrels but go to a single shot with a 15" and it will burn. Depending on the powder it indeed needs more length. Too much powder needs longer. Even BP will not all burn and Pyrodex is even a better example if compressed too much. Friend wanted more velocity so he added more and more with the result of the powder adding to the bullet weight, shooting slower and plugs came out of his 34" barrel to burn in the grass. Looked like a flare gun and we had to worry about a brush fire. Now they make pellets for inlines, had trouble at first so they put a hole through them and went to shotgun primers.
As for deer, back then some butchers cut the deer to donate to churches and food banks but now the hunter has to pay the processing. I have a friend that takes an average 17 deer a year to feed the poor. My brother in law still donates meat and will have an entire deer made into jerky on his dime to send to our troops overseas. No meat goes to waste and now my extra deer goes to the landowners. They come here and I skin, quarter and they sit and clean meat and wrap. I grind burger for them.
The average price to get a deer cut here is $70 so we do our own. I get the privilege to hunt all the properties here.
Long ago, there were few deer in Ohio and only one could be shot a season except in Ravena arsenal. Army ammunition depot. They wanted as many shot as you could but could only take one home. I gave away so many deer it was crazy. Then they trapped deer from the arsenal and from Plumbrook to spread them everywhere. The herd exploded. Driving past the fence at Plumbrook it was nothing to see herds of 40 bucks so they had a hunt. You were assigned and area that you did not leave and there were test deer with orange collars that were not to be shot. Secret squirrel place, NASA. Hunters did not follow rules and they stopped it. Trapped deer instead. Deer became a problem. When I shot a deer the farmer would tell me to come back and get more. In PA farmers shot any deer in the fields, gut shot so they ran into the woods to die and go to waste. Then in hunting season they never seen any. A non resident in PA never got a doe tag, Hunting camps bought them all and threw them in the fire. To see a buck was luck and it was nothing to count 80 does walk past. You don't know!
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Why do you bring black powder and black powder substitutes into this, they are not realavent. You truly need to seriously look at this post by 458LOTT and studying the graph and try to comprehend his post. What pressure does a .45 335 gr need to get to 1160 FPS in 2"? The .44 at 1316 FPS with a 330 gr in 2"? You can't do it. You can't reach spin without velocity. Even in the old days BP rifles would reach 48" to burn the powder. Not gone in an inch. I know I'm probably reaching to find a way to communicate, but I'll give it a go. Bullet acceleration is based on the area of the pressure/time curve, not the peak pressure. That's why a load with bullseye at 40 kpsi is going to be slower than a load with H-110 at 40 kpsi, assuming we're talking about a magnum cartridge because there is less area under the curve. Here's a generic pressure/time curve I pulled off the net The faster the powder, the quicker the peak pressure is generated. The shorter the barrel, the less time the bullet is being accelerated by the expanding gasses because there is less area under the time/pressure curve to accelerate the bullet. But in the majority of cases, the peak pressure is achieved and the pressure starts dropping before the bullet leaves the barrel. Maybe in the case of a short handgun barrel the bullet is in the barrel for 0.0006 seconds and in the case of a long barrel 0.0007 seconds. As I stated before and 475 keeps beating on, current revolvers will stabilize heavy for caliber bullets at 1000 fps or less. Whether you choose a 2" snubby for ~1100 fps, a 5" for ~1200 fps or a 10" for ~1400 fps doesn't matter. In every case the bullet is rotated to sufficient rpm to be stable. If you've had accuracy problems with short barreled revolvers or at lower velocities, bullet rotational stability was not the culprit. One magic load in one gun does not make one an expert on revolver accuracy. The more guns I Ioad for, the more I learn and the less inclined I am to make absolute statements. You are so far off on this that you are making yourself a laughing stock.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676 |
Twist in handguns is ignored, any bullet needs a certain spin. My heavy bullet in the .44 needs 47,376 rpm's at 1316 FPS. Slow it to 1100 FPS and get 39,600. You say 900 FPS is stable with 32,400 because barrel length does not matter because twist is the same.
Velocity determines spin. I want to see the magic 4" barrel reach the velocity needed. Case full of Bullseye? My favorite load was the 240 XTP with 24 gr of 296. 10-1/2" barrel or 8-3/8" S&W down to a 7-1/2". You know it is over 1430 FPS with a spin of 51,480. Yes I was 1/2 gr over max book. But it is where it shot. Will you burn 24 gr of 296 in a 2" barrel? Will you reach spin?
OH, I see, the twist is the same???? Spin must be the same at any speed. Do you see the huge muzzle flash as your powder burns out front? The net must be correct.
I was given Gun Digest books to see more perfect information ever. My hat is off to the writers that explain the way it is from muzzle energy and bullet construction to spin. Refreshing to see truth. I recommend them and Whitworth's books too. Best darn shooter and hunter I knew.
Sorry John, anyone that listens to you will be happy to shoot a .500 at 20 yards. You should read the new writers. Here is a quote from one, Weird thing is, I have seen rifles that won't print better the 1-1/2" at 100 yards but shoot better at 200 and 300 yards. What have I said? Over spin or under spin. Why do BFR's shoot better then any revolvers ever made. Seems to be spin.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
You clearly do not understand the reigniting as the powder it is exposed to oxygen as it leaves the barrel.
You clearly have not studied the graph posted by 458LOTT and do not grasp the information it provides.
Let me simplify this for you. Take a portable air tank fill it with air to its maxb pressure, this is your “chamber pressure” disconnect the tank from the compressor (all the powder is burnt) now connect the portable tank to your tire and inflate it. The pressure immediately starts to drop yet as the pressure in the tank is dropping the tire continues to inflate (excellerating the bullet)
Is it more clear now?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
You should read the new writers. Here is a quote from one, Weird thing is, I have seen rifles that won't print better the 1-1/2" at 100 yards but shoot better at 200 and 300 yards. What have I said? Over spin or under spin. Why do BFR's shoot better then any revolvers ever made. Seems to be spin.
A bullet that shots 1 1/2” at 100 yards can’t get on track to shoot better at longer range unless it has a guidance system, which it doesn’t. Brain Lietz has totally disapproved that myth.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676 |
Because powder is powder. All have a burn rate. Powder is coated to slow burn and yes even BP is coated. But how about no coating at all like some shotgun powders and all the shapes of powders to change burn time. Most powder has the same composition but shape and coatings change. Stick powders can be solid or have a hole through them.
Lil'gun has little, made for the 410 and can destroy a forcing cone with heat. If you think 3031 is a different powder then 4831, got news for you. It is shape and coatings that slow the burn so powder adds to push down the bore. If what you say is true why not use 4831 in the .44 or .357? Should get to pressure in an inch and reach velocity. Happy days are here with just one powder for anything. You can shoot 150 gr of FFFFG in your muzzle loader. Your hand and steel will say different.
You know nothing about powders at all. Had a jug of powder made for the .50 BMG I could not use, gave it back But you all say it will work in a .44 mag with a 4" barrel. What woodwork did you crawl out of? Why do we have thousands of powders when one will work? All goes off in an inch but some has more gas. So does a double load of Bullseye with you getting your hand put back on.
It is not peak pressure or where it is. It is more burn to push. Put 4831 in your .44 and show the rest of us. Stick the net charts where the sun does not shine.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Because powder is powder. All have a burn rate. Powder is coated to slow burn and yes even BP is coated. But how about no coating at all like some shotgun powders and all the shapes of powders to change burn time. Most powder has the same composition but shape and coatings change. Stick powders can be solid or have a hole through them.
Lil'gun has little, made for the 410 and can destroy a forcing cone with heat. If you think 3031 is a different powder then 4831, got news for you. It is shape and coatings that slow the burn so powder adds to push down the bore. If what you say is true why not use 4831 in the .44 or .357? Should get to pressure in an inch and reach velocity. Happy days are here with just one powder for anything. You can shoot 150 gr of FFFFG in your muzzle loader. Your hand and steel will say different.
You know nothing about powders at all. Had a jug of powder made for the .50 BMG I could not use, gave it back But you all say it will work in a .44 mag with a 4" barrel. What woodwork did you crawl out of? Why do we have thousands of powders when one will work? All goes off in an inch but some has more gas. So does a double load of Bullseye with you getting your hand put back on.
It is not peak pressure or where it is. It is more burn to push. Put 4831 in your .44 and show the rest of us. Stick the net charts where the sun does not shine. This is the most convoluted nonsense I have ever read. Comparing black powder to smokeless powder is like comparing apples to spinach. WOW just WOW. You get sillier with every post. You clearly have no clue and do not mind publishing that fact.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,893 Likes: 12 |
Nobody said what you're claiming they did. You're projecting your own erroneous interpretation of what they said onto the conversation.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676 |
You should read the new writers. Here is a quote from one, Weird thing is, I have seen rifles that won't print better the 1-1/2" at 100 yards but shoot better at 200 and 300 yards. What have I said? Over spin or under spin. Why do BFR's shoot better then any revolvers ever made. Seems to be spin.
A bullet that shots 1 1/2” at 100 yards can’t get on track to shoot better at longer range unless it has a guidance system, which it doesn’t. Brain Lietz has totally disapproved that myth. Not true at all. Over spin will enlarge a group at close range and a bullet will "go to sleep" when spin and velocity matches. Have you really shot guns? My .220 would never do better then 3" at 100 yards but shot 1/4" at 350 yards. There is a dark spot where sun doesn't shine. Stop reading and do some work. I bet you follow Taffin too.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
Not true at all. Over spin will enlarge a group at close range and a bullet will "go to sleep" when spin and velocity matches. Have you really shot guns? My .220 would never do better then 3" at 100 yards but shot 1/4" at 350 yards. There is a dark spot where sun doesn't shine. Stop reading and do some work. I bet you follow Taffin too.
I'm pretty sure they make medication for your condition, but not being a psychiatrist nor having ever been under the care of one I have no clue as to what that would be.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
. Stick the net charts where the sun does not shine.
If you can’t comprehend them, then by all means take the ostrich approach, bury your head in the sand.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
You should read the new writers. Here is a quote from one, Weird thing is, I have seen rifles that won't print better the 1-1/2" at 100 yards but shoot better at 200 and 300 yards. What have I said? Over spin or under spin. Why do BFR's shoot better then any revolvers ever made. Seems to be spin.
A bullet that shots 1 1/2” at 100 yards can’t get on track to shoot better at longer range unless it has a guidance system, which it doesn’t. Brain Lietz has totally disapproved that myth. Not true at all. Over spin will enlarge a group at close range and a bullet will "go to sleep" when spin and velocity matches. Have you really shot guns? My .220 would never do better then 3" at 100 yards but shot 1/4" at 350 yards. There is a dark spot where sun doesn't shine. Stop reading and do some work. I bet you follow Taffin too. Please explain how a bullet with a near 1 1/2 moa dispersion corrects that disposition as it goes down range? Does the bullet “going to sleep” add some type of guidance system to the bullet?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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