Ok, so I was just looking at the new 2009 Remington catalog online.
I know they had a varmint rifle last year that has a barrel that is triangle shaped - looks kind of cool I guess since I'm big on fluted barrels why not. Well per the catalog they now offer one in a hunting rifle - the new model XHR rifle.
So, just wondering if there is any practical reason for making a triangle shaped barrel. Would it end up cooling better or? Or just the latest gimmick.
Just wondering, besides that they also have a pretty nice looking tactical rifle.

Maybe stiffer? I just wonder how vibration can be uniform. A friend of mine has a 700 VTR and shoots some pretty good groups with it.

Proof is in the pudding as they say.

If triangle barrels were better you would see the benchrest crowd using them.

As far as I know they are not. Now I do not follow the benchrest crowd so I may be wrong, but if there was ever a group of firearms people more willing to do anything to get the most accurate firearm, I sure do not know about them. I would find a benchrest forum and post your question to them.

...Barrels don't get stiffer when material is removed from them, no matter the final shape they are machined to. The stiffness of a barrel is a result of the "quantity" of steel used, not the finished shape. Unless the triangular barrel provides a dimension that incorporates more steel, it will not be stiffer than a barrel of round configuration incorporating a like quantity of steel.Many people seem to mistakenly believe that fluting a barrel, for example, causes increased stiffness. Not so! Removing steel decreases stiffness, but certainly, because it increases surface area,it will be an aid to more rapid cooling( and of course reduces weight).

....In my view, a trangle shaped barrel will yield no improvement in rifle performance. Wait and see...OMO..

But I suppose they will sell a bunch just because it looks kinda cool.

One new good one that is listed for 2009, their CDL stainless fluted in 257 Roberts - that is one on my hit list. It would be a fun black tail/antelope gun.

Hey Dan360 doesn't your fiance' maybe need one of those you said you needed a new gun...

Not true. For a given amount of steel the moment of inertia of the cross section, which changes with shape, influences the resistance to bending.

Note that I am not saying removing material from an already made barrel will make it stiffer.

Saw the same in the catalog this AM. Imagine it'll look neat, if nothing else. Noticed these will use mag contour barrels, but don't recall if they were ported or not. Suspect not.

Actually, it is not the amount of steel that is the primary determinant of stiffness but the distance from the centerline to the outer edge. The reason a fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of like weight is the fluted barrel is larger in diameter.

Since a triangular barrel can have a greater distance from the centerline to the extreme edges, it may well do a better job of providing greater stiffness for a given weight. Whether the difference is better than a round, fluted barrel remains to be seen.

Recall if you will high school geometry class. Or at least look at the trusses in your attic. The triangle is the stiffest geometric form. It would also follow that the triangle shaped barrel would trump a round barrel in the heat dissipation department.

I am of the opinion that the triangle shaped barrel would be vastly superior to a round barrel.. for a jack handle. I picked up one of them at the local firearms emporium. I do not remember which model it was. I was greatly impressed by the mass of the thing.

That would make sense if barrels were two dimensional and we were trying to crush them. But thank god, we're not, and they are three dimensional.

The triangular shaped barrel makes some sense from a weight reduction standpoint, and a lot of sense from a sales standpoint.

all I can say is as new as they are and as many has been sold, I sure do see alot of barely used ones for sale in the classifieds on the various boards. kinda makes you go ummmmmmm

just saw the catalog. They haven't dropped the 260 YET.

As far as the tri-barrel...hell, if it shoots go for it.

A friend of mine has a new triangle barrel 308 with the top ported muzzle brake section, I think it's a VTR. When he finally gets it scoped up I'll have him shoot it with a couple of reference loads. We'll know the story pretty quick. If a 308 won't shoot a 168 grain match bullet on top of 46 grains of Varget it's ailing somewhere.

Furthermore, the elastic modulus for plain carbon steel is about the same as that of any barrel alloy. No appreciable "stiffness" difference between a given contour in CM versus stainless.

Another gimmic me thinks.Remember the electronic primer and how far that went????

Would these barrels be cheaper to manufacture in the triangular shape?

if the blanks are triangles there is less waste as a square split diaganally in half, but I believe round blanks are extruded that way

Just scanned the back section of the new catalog. No 1-8" .22CF offerings, in spite of all this "long range" and "precision" talk that is found throughout the rifle section.

I've handled a couple. Odd ducks. That stock would be a throwaway if you rebarreled it in the future.

The .223 did have the fastest twist Remington offers in a .223, which is a 1-9" if I remember right. That, and the cost, was why I even picked it up to look at it.

If your a lefty and want a new SS Remington now would be the time to buy an XCR as no more LH SS guns appear anymore in 2009. I swear this company's marketing and sales strategy seem to be governed by using a Quija board!


270

I always thought they used a magic 8 ball, but the ouija board may be right.

Somebody here must already own one. It's inconceivable that amongst the 20,000 members here nobody has one.

Step out of the closet whoever you are and give us a report.

I own one (won it in a drawing, a .204) and have shot several others in various calibers. It is called the 700 VTR (Varmint-Target Rifle).

The first 100-yard group out of my .204, with factory ammo, had four shots touching and the 5th a little out. The other rifles I've shot have been very accurate too, and the reports I've gotten from other shooters have been favorable as well.

If the factory stock is a cull, I like culls. I find it very good for its purposes, and haven't modified the bedding at all, as I have done with almost all the dozens of Remington 700's I've owned.

They may have settled on the triangular barrel just because it's cool, but more likely for the same stiffness/weight advantages of a fluted barrel, but exaggerated. The VTR's shoot more like a heavy-barreled rifle, but weigh more like a sporter. My .204 weighs 8 pounds 9 ounces with a 2-12x Swarovski Z6 in Talley steel mounts.

Two hunting buddies have them. Both are extremely accurate. (And I know what accurate is.)

JB,

Your results have me excited about the prospects for my buddy's 308 VTR. I've put together some really straight reference cartridges to test it with.

mathman

If these have the X-mark trigger in them and don't sell well the 1 in 9 twisted 223 will be one I'll watch the auction sites for. Can't have too many small bolt faces/223's.

Would the triangular shape affect the oscillation of the barrel?

It would seem to me that a round barrel when fired, would oscillate in any number of directions and would be affected by various barrel-to-stock pressures from the 180 degrees of barrel channel. That's why changing pressure points, or allowing the barrel to free float entirely, or adding a Boss modifies the oscillation in a controllable manner.

With a triangular profile, I would guess that oscillation would only happen in one of three directions. If the barrel is bedded or laid in the stock in such a way that two of possible oscillations would be eliminated or reduced(side-to side), then the only probable oscillation would be vertical. Of course, this should show more vertical groupings I would think.

Or it could be just a marketing gimmic.

I'm holding out for Star shaped.

I'm hoping maybe next year.

I think this new rifle will sell because a lot of guy's including me will think it looks cool, whether it makes a stiffer more accurate platform I cant say ( but I do doubt seriously) I still predict that Remington has a good little gimmick going here and will sell an azz-load of this new design, hell I'll probably buy one Myself............547.

The triangular barrel will receive the same input force as a round barrel. The twist will impart a rotational twist to the barrel, modeling the response of a triangular barrel is no more difficult than a tapered cylinder.

Here's one way to look at it: start with a round barrel and cut three equally spaced flats to make your triangular barrel. Makes it clear to me which barrel is better.

I do agree they look cool.

The comparison should be with a round barrel of the same weight.

Mosin octagonal receivers are supposed to be stronger than round ones. I don't know about barrels. How does the triangle barrel lay in the stock? Point up or flat up? Mayhap a square barrel would work? It would fit better in a 2x4 stud stock. Sometimes I wonder and then I wander.

I'll repeat what's been said before, I have 2 friends that have the VTR. One ine 223 and the other in 308. Both rifles are above average accurate with factory ammo.

The 223 was purchased while he was on an antelope hunt. He ran into a prarie dog town that needed attention. He went to the nearest town and bought the only 223 available (VTR) and 10 boxes of green and yellow ammo. Pulled the scope and mounts off his other gun and sighted in the 223, in 4 shots he claims. Shot 200 rounds in 1 day never cleaned, didn't break in, nothing special. Came home and shot some .75" groups with some handloads. This guy is as much a nut as the rest of us here and loves the "plastic gun." He's old school to say the least. Now you know...............

Joseph

Have the VTR .308, added a Nikon Buckmaster 4x14 I had on the shelf, shoots 168gr in a .75" diameter three shot groups 100m. Had some handloads that were hollow point light loads I put together for my kids Tikka's, they were in a nice triangle that was covered by a quarter at 100m. That was the first time at the range. Recoil is very light for .308 with the muzzlebreak and I added a R3 pad.

VTR .223 sitting in the box while I get some optics.

I like them. The stocks are tupperware, functional, not free floated barrel, might be able to dremel engineer some more barrel clearance in the stock.

Out of the box, its a very good shooter (.308)

...That is more to the point! I was trying to point out in my first post in this thread that "Removing" steel from a round barrel, cutting it to a triangle, or whatever shape, is an exercise in futility since the loss of steel will reduce the barrels stiffness and resistance to harmonic vibrations... That is not to say that one profile cannot create a stiffer barrel, given an equal quantity of steel in it's construction.

...As I said in my earlier post, many people seem to believe that milling flutes into a barrel will increase it's stiffness. That is not true, since the steel removed in the process reduces the strength and stiffness of the barrel. Fluting a round barrel does however increase it's cooling ability since it produces a greater surface area to exchange BTUs. A fluted barrel using a like quantity of the same steel as the round barrel certainly should increase stiffness over the round barrel. A triangle barrel would be stiffer in certain vectors of travel, while being more easily bent in others vectors of movement. The point being, that triangle barrels might prove to have a tendency of harmonic vibration that would be different than the equidistant vibrations normally seen in a round barrel.
.... Whether the triangle form will prove itself to be an accuracy improvement will be shown in time. I doubt it will prove itself more accurate than the round barrel, unless comparing triangle barrels of greater mass to a lighter round barrel.

Are the going to produce a "TEXAS" shaped one next year?

It might be a BIG seller!

Looks like Remington is going after the Bubba market with all that goofy looking cammo, muzzle brakes and triangle barrels.

I am VERY traditional when it comes to rifles. I like wood, steel and always' think a control round feeding is a nice touch.

They had one of those triangle barreled rifles at Sportsmans Warehouse not long ago. I laughed when I saw it and told the salesman to hand it over the counter. I swung it and shouldered it a few times. I pointed it and shouldered it a few more. I wanted to hate this rifle because it looked so goofy. I handed it back to the salesman and had to admit, "I kinda like that." I still don't own one yet.

Terry

To quote the brilliant HL Mencken, "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."

Remington is living proof of the veracity of this statement... NASCAR AMERICA REJOICE

Triangles are more stiffer than round, given the same weight.

The one that I shot was very light weight and had very little recoil, and accurate ...was in 308.

That may be, but laser engraved stocks, cheesy "engraving", camo, blah, blah is more in line with what I was thinking of.

I wish Remington continued success however unappealing many of their products may be to me.

I'm gonna get me one of these badboys and flatout hone chit!





Daytona in 25 days!

just go tikka

i own the new remington rt-15 custom which has the 24 in stainless triangular barrel and custom gas block... have
not shot it yet..waiting on getting scope and ammo for it

Several factors have kept my buddy from getting going with his VTR in 308, but a couple of weeks ago I bought one for myself. It's looking to be a real shooter and I haven't even fine tuned any loads to it, I've just shot some standards any good 308 ought to like.

Here's an example. I have a bunch of Lake City Match M852 ammunition that came from one lot number, and I've been sorting it for runout. After sorting I take the good ones and run them through one of my seating dies to make the lengths more uniform and to pop the neck sealant.

Yesterday I was shooting a batch that had been marked as having 0.004" runout measured on the bullet ogive a tenth of an inch forward of the case mouth. So they were pretty good but not the best. With this ammo it was easy to shoot 3/4" five shot groups at 100 yards. Toward the end of the day I had ten (yes, ten) rounds remaining that I fired into one 0.88" group.

In this same brass I'm going to duplicate the military match load using all my minimal sizing and concentricity tricks. I'd like to see if I can get ten into 3/4" or less.

mathman

I seriously considered one of them in .223, because the twist was right and the cost was right... but one thing that threw me, is that my goal with the .223 is to shoot out the factory tube and re-barrel with a .223AI (probably) in the proper twist for really heavy bullets... and the stock on those VTR's looked to me like it would end up being a tosser if you went with a regular round barrel.

Yeah, that's a consideration. I picked mine up as a fun range plinking rifle to "run-in" new brass and keep the round count down for my hunting 308. With hearing protection the muzzle break isn't a bother. It seems to make less of a ruckus than an unbraked 300 mag as heard through the ear plugs. A little less pressure and 30 or 40 grains less powder go a long way in that regard. Besides I had already decided that if it was obnoxious I'd have it bobbed.

i held one of the triangle models this past saturday. i didn't see anything i liked about the barrel or the stock. just my opinion but i think it will go the way of the electronic ignition in a couple years.

If you sharpened the top edge, you'd have a last-ditch weapon if your gun jammed.

I'm telling you guys, star shaped. that's where it's at.

Northern Dave:

I wouldn't want anyone thinking I was a Dallas Cowboys fan.

true.

well maybe we could go with something like a 6 point star, or a square???

Or maybe something really out there like.... a triangle!!!

oop, my bad.

Let's see, my choices are: Cowboy fan; or I'm a square; or I shoot a box-stock Remmy. I'll take the Star of David, please.

How about a "scientific" test?
Duplicate the Rem barrel, and then machine another barrel of the same length with the same contour (ie dia. at muzzle and dia at receiver end) then do a stress / bend test on each under closely controlled and supervised conditions.
The triangular barrel will show superiority if I am correct. If not, I will gladly eat my words.

Wheen the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

Well, a friend of mine bought one in 308. I have to say that I am a "classic" style, wood, blue, kinda guy..But I have to admit that it looked "cool" in its own way. To me, it "felt" like a shooter..very solid, a little heft, and slightly muzzle heavy..I handed it back to him and said, "I bet it shoots"..He liked that! I might just break the mold and get one myself!

...Hey if a triangle works wonders, wouldn't a star of David be twice as good?......As an added benefit we might get more Jewish folks involved in hunting.

As usual, I read an article a while back about fluted vs non-fluted as regards to stiffness. The correspondent used a rifle with a nonfluted barrel, installed it in a fixture not touching the barrel and hung a weight on the end of the barrel and measured the bend or deflection in the barrel. He then had the barrel fluted the same as a production, or normally produced fluted barrel and reinstalled it in the same rifle. He hung the same weight on the end of the barrel and it had MORE deflection than when in the unfluted state. This proves that fluted barrels of the same outside diameter as nonfluted are not as stiff as nonfluted.

...I've said earlier on a similar thread,You don't increase stiffness by removing metal, cooling yes, stiffness no. However a barrel of like MASS, in like steel, can be more resistant to deflection using profiles other than round.

This only true up until the yield point is reached, then the stronger barrel will be stiffer- not applicable here but as a blanket statement- not quite true.

I think some people confuse fluting with corrugation. Culverts are corrugated (spiral grooves at right angles along its length)this makes them stiffer and stronger. Of course they are made of thinner material to start with.

another product that answers a question nobody asked