Am I the only one that feels this way? Do gun writers like Dave Petzal really believe that this is the best Model 70 ever? The new rifles may be capable of better accuracy than the pre-64's, but weren't those rifles back than more than accurate enough? I just don't get the feeling of craftsmanship from the new Model 70's that I get from the old. The pre-64's have a solid feel that you can notice throughout the weapon. The blueing is rich and deep, and the stocks have that hand rubbed oil finish. The rifles today are all satin, the barrel channels are all off, and to top it off, they have that ugly crossbolt going through them.
How much would you pay for a model 70 or a model 12 made brand new today, identical to those made 57 years ago, or older?

Get a Tikka........

I guess I'll get the popcorn.

Nahhh, if I want a new centerfire rifle, I usually get a 700.

I would rather own a new SC over a CT or pre 64.

Yeah, I think they are a better rifle.

The pre 64 stock is configured for irons not a scope.
It's metallurgy may be better than a SC but show me
a hunter who could tell the difference.

The SC 70 rifle QC is 100x better than the CT 70.
I owned 3 CT 70's including a SG that looked like a parts rifle.
I had to send it back to the factory twice to get things fixed like being able to see light between the recoil pad and wood stock.

Here here! I hate to bash the legend, but the pre 64 is not all its cracked up to be IMHO. I laugh every time i go to the gun library at cabelas and look at pristine examples. The stocks were horrible, matte receivers were inconsistent in finish, fixed sights on the barrel, no true short action, etc...

The new SC guns are far and away better put together. Nicer wood too, and more configurations. They also seem very consistent in their quality.

crazy talk^^^

Jeffrey

Sounds like you should be buying a Dakota! There you will get your handrubbed oil finished stock.

I have both and whilst I like my pre 64 its quite a plain rifle. I think the new M70 is good value for the money and in fact the bluing on the Supergrades I have seen has been very good.

You are just not going to get a hand finished rifle for that sort of money!

I think the op is trying to stir the pot with a big stick.

Raquel Welch and Hillary Clinton are both "women";they have the same anatomical parts, all located in the same places,so they are very much the "same" in that regard....but once Raquel Welch is "gone",they will not be making another....

Similarly, the problem we encounter is that the pre 64 M70 is gone;it is not made any more and never will be,becausethe world has changed.Only through the devious manipulations of marketing have we been led to believe that the M70 Classic and the new FN rifles,despite their virtues, should be compared to a pre 64 M70.....they shouldn't.Because they are not,in the true sense, a pre 64 M70.

They are different rifles,made very differently, and even though they may share certain characteristics like Raquel and Hillary,one cannot possibly be mistaken for the other.

So when someone like the OP says the new ones do not compare, I happen to agree with him.Because they are not the same rifle,and to manufacture a rifle today the same way the pre 64 was made would cost several thousand dollars;any one doubting this should get a copy of Robert Rule's book on the M70 and read it.....then he should use a pre 64 for awhile,or several over a lifetime....he will see and feel a difference alright.

Each M70 variation should be viewed to stand on its own two feet;for every person who says new ones are more accurate,I can produce a pre 64 that says it isn't so; I have owned enough of all to know....

The pre 64 was a semi-custom rifle;put a modern stock on the barreled action,and you have a rifle fully equal in quality to about anything out there today.

The Classic? Basically good, but lacking in consistency and QC.It can be great but it takes a thorough rebuild by someone like Mark Penrod, Gene Simillion, David Miller, etc to get it here.Once one of these guys get done with a full rework,it acts,looks, and feels "different"....more like e Dakota or pre 64.If you want to know how much it would cost to make a pre 64,have one of these guys give a Classic the full treatment that a pre 64 got.

The FN? MUCH better in terms of consistency, but they should never have changed te trigger....bad move IMHO.Otherwise a really nice rifle for the money .But it is not a pre 64;again, it is a very good rifle for the money.

Looking at a pre 64 at a store,and comparing it to a newer version and declaring the new version "better", is like doing a drive-by appraisal....utterly meaningless and unless a guy has spent considerable time with a pre 64, with all due respect, he does know what he's talking about in comparing them.

Don't know why folks rave over the Pre 64...Nice solid factory rifle, sure, but nothing special. Much rather have a Sako Forester of the same vintage or a Brno for that matter..

Not seen the latest version of the M70, but if you want a solid factory rifle built the old way and the new M70 doesn't fit the bill, get a Howa or CZ550.

If your willing to spend considerably more look at something like a Sauer 90 or 202, or a Blaser if you can live with the funky bolt design...

Trump them all and get a Kimber. In my opinion, for the money, they're hard to beat.

Excellent post and right on the money - ESPECIALLY the comments on the trigger..

As we used to say in the car biz - 'there's an azz for every seat'..

Yep. Popcorn + tons of beer.. Heheheheee

Why is it that the Mod 70-no matter which generation-is always the one being compared. Very few threads have much life where the poster compares M700s of any lineage to each other with any enthusiasm with regards to quality and past history. They work well, but instill little enthusiasm for their overall beauty, function or quality. Much the same as a Chevy Chevette. You can bling them up all you want, but you still have a Chevette. How many customs use the 700 as its foundation?

I think you should have someone like Winston Churchill engrave a gold feeder on your 700 floorplate. Coooool!!!!! Forgot. Have the Honda 4 wheeler off in the distance.

The early/mid 80s featherweights with push feed were the best....



Ingwe

Nothing quite compares to those 80s PFs and a Leopard thingy on the barrel. Racy rascals they were.

So... what should a person being willing to pay for a pre-64 that has shown honest wear, and will be a shooter, not a collection piece?

And about the CZ-550, I passed on one a few years back... and am wondering what makes it "a solid factory rifle built the old way"? I ain't being a smart aleck here, i truly want to know... so i can go kick myself for passing on that CZ-550 6.5x55... I bought a Ruger M77 MkII 7x57 instead...

Dogger,

As far as price goes, all I can tell you is once you have handled enough of them, eventually one will jump out at you and you will know now is the time.

However, the reality of it all is that for each of us a particular model eventually becomes our favorite. Ruger's are great rifles along with many others.

Most of this is just bs.

I didn't know that Hillary was a woman though

Buy 2 Tikkas.

battue, amen to that... i have numerous M700 and M77 and an M77 Mark II 6mm Remington with a Leupold 2x7 VX1 is my favorite for the deer woods... go figure!

I own one, and love it.
Took ONE range session to find two different loads that shoot 3 shots into 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
The craftsmanship on my M-70 is superb; no flaws whatsoever.

wow finally some members with some sensibility. the pre 64 big freaking whoop, when you are rubbing it and wanking off in your under wear, make sure to notice the stock design on most isn't well suited for scope use, the checkering while hand cut doesn't look all that precise, the stock is the plainest more boring piece of walnut ever produced. the machining on the outside of the action below the stock looks like someone from the soviet union did it that made SKS rifles. you have a big barrel donut that is not conducive to accuracy or looks.

the BACO 70's I have seen have been very well put together, the metal finish looks great, and often times the wood is very impressive. about the only bad thing one could say is the trigger might not be able to be adjusted as low as alot of people would like.

some people will just never get it and continue to be gun snobs no matter what.

The 700 never lost any of the great craftsmanship that made them what they were. A 700 built today is probably the best they have been in a lot of ways. They have always been a mass produced, cost cutting tool, like an 870. They are still very nice, functional, accurate tools. Some look good too.
Kimbers are nice, I bought a Montana 338 Fed. I sent it back to Kimber though cuz I have shotguns that grouped better. They sent it back with a few alterations and I have yet to shoot it. Feels like a great rifle, hopefuly it shoots now.
Bob, that was a good post. I feel you left out the most important part though. Raquel would be a pre-64, Hillary, well you know...
I'm not a big fan of the CZ's. I have heard they can shoot, much like a Savage. I just don't get that warm and fuzzy from them.
I'm asking my earlier question to myself. How much would I pay for a brand new Model 70 or 12 built exactly as they were before 1964? I would make the plastic sizzle more than likely though. Money aint nothing but a thing.

And then there are those who favor Dodge, but that's for another day.

Jeffrey.....intentionally omitted...some will get it real quickly...you know, the "gun snobs"...

The others will not comprehend......

..you're right about the cost thing,too.Much stuff made today which purports to be better falls into the same category with blister pack scopes and disposable diapers.We'll see what these jewels are worth in 20 years....I see the used rifle racks lined with them everywhere...they look like left over parts from beserk erector sets.

These are popular in Utah,or so I understand.....

Dogger,

Lets start with an action that it is machined from a forged billet of steel, rather than being machined from an investment casting. (Ruger, Sako 75 & 85's plus others)

The bottom metal of a CZ550 is still machined steel part, not synthetic/plastic as it the Tikka or pot metal as in other makes (including Howa) The Tikka also has a plastic/synthetic bolt shroud.

In fairness some CZ' now have a plastic magazine follower, but thats about the only plastic on them.

The bolt lacks any fancy security locks as beloved by the Nanny state...

In Europe at least, the CZ also offer certain "custom" options on the basic rifle, which is a nice touch for the buyer, but its not easy to sort out if you don't speak Czech.

So I'm not saying a CZ is in the same ball park as say a Dakota, just that at its price point, its a good, solid rifle of a more traditional build.

Regards,

Peter

We are up to 3 Tikkas now.

I think Bob's assessment here is of course biased at best.

The new SC FN 70 is not ugly like Hillary.

I see the pre 64 looking more like Grace Kelly and anatomically compared to the (FN)Catherine Zeta-Jones.

Both sophisticated, yet different.

My first Pre 64 was a 358 Winchester, my next, was a 30-06 that was found along with 10 other pre 64's by janitors opening up an old long forgotten room on the Northern Arizona University campus.My understanding is they were used by the college rifle team back in the 40's. They sat hidden in a crate for 50 years. The campus sold them to Shooters World in Phoenix, AZ.

No, nothing really compares to Grace Kelly but there sure isn't anything wrong with Zeta Jones either.

I don't know why anyone could be unhappy with either.



edited to add,

Speaking of Tikkas, the Sako A7 is the best buy going right now.

And what, exactly, is that supposed to mean?

SU35 - when all is said and done I would much prefer Racquel's slippers under my bed, rather then Hillary's. At that point, what's in the gun safe not worth mentioning. Racquel, be right there - LOL. Regards, Homesteader.

Oh, those marvelous pre-'64's!

Where is old-school workmanship like that anymore? Where else can I buy a rifle with shallow hand-checkering, complete with overruns? Then there's that slim, trim pistol grip, exactly suited for an 800-pound gorilla.

Oh, and then they heat-treated the action after all those zillions of machining cuts, so it would be sure to warp slightly. And that nifty several-piece bottom metal, requiring 3 screws, so handy when taking the rifle apart to do any maintenance. And the superb trigger, which can't be adjusted down below 4-1/2 pounds on most rifles, instead requiring complete dismantling and rebuilding, almost as complex as rebuilding a 327 from an old Chevy.

But they do tend to have pretty good barrels.

I have a pre-64 '06, circa 1960. Nice rifle, but like MD said, all that "workmanship" in no way compares to my Browning FN Safari, which IMO, is the finest factory sporting rifle ever made. I wonder what they'd charge to make that same rifle today?

A '67 Vette with a 427-or even the mundane 327-with side pipes is crude by today's standards, but that doesn't prevent them from being desired by many. Admittedly perhaps predominantly by those with a foot in the past. Also fairly easy to move if one is inclined.

A pre 64 is much like that '67Vette. Find a good daily driver and you have a lot of rifle for the money.

W



Too funny!

Just wish they'd make some left handed ones so I can be unimpressed, too.

Gotta admit there is a certain je ne sais quoi about the older stuff of all makes. Got a 1955 Marlin 336 and the wood is a beautiful red shade, the polishing is far above anything on today's rifles and it still shoots right alongside anything they make today.

If'n I was right handed the closet would probably have a predominance of Mauser sporters, the aforementioned Brownings and maybe even a Remington 722 or 2 instead of all those shiny LH Model 700's.

I too prefer many other rifles of the same era over the pre-64s.(Husqvarna, Sako,Brno, FN Browning to name a few) While I think the pre-64 Model 70s are solid well built rifles, I could never understand the cult like following?!?!?

Back then Winchester was a huge company, with a very good PR and advertising system. Plus, somebody wrote a book about the Model 70.

The same thing happened with Parker shotguns. Parkers are good guns, but not better than other American side-by-sides of their era, and not as good as some. But somebody wrote a book about the greatness of Parkers, and all of sudden they were THE shotgun. And the guy who wrote the book wasn't even a hunter....

I was throwing Cummins a dig..... not meant for all shooters in Utah.....

I believe that gun writers are to blame for the controversy between Winchester era's. The simple fact is that most hunters today were not even born when the pre 64 Winchester was the norm.

There were rumblings about the first generation of PF Model 70's just after the change but it had a lot to do with other changes like the pressed checkering and fence post grade stocks spray painted with hideous varnishes. The metal was poorly finsihed and tooling marks were free at no extra cost.

I never saw a prew 64 winchester in my life until I came to the US 8 years ago and I wondered what the hell the fuss was. They were rough, the stocks were "elcheapo" pantograph specials and as Matt Williams has pointed out several times here, the metal finishing was pathetic compared the the capabilities of modern CNC machinery and finishing methods.

Something else I learned over time is that old steel tends to de-stress naturally over time so many of these older rifles (no matter what model or brand) are real shooters. This coupled with the fact that bullets have gone through tremendous advances and contribute to accuracy levels never achieved 4 or 5 decades ago, means that all rifles shoot better whether new or old.

When the writers of the 70's were burned out on topics to write about, they reminisced and covered the obsolete and discontinued pre-64. I grew up esentially with PF versions and as Ingwe has highlighted, they were great. Slick feeders, extraction was "never" an issue discussed nor was reliability of feeding.

When Jack O'C wrote of model 70's he wrote about what was available in his era, though he restocked them all (no wonder). When Bob Hagel wrote about Model 70's he built his famed .340 on a PF Winchester action and never ever was there discontent about the functions and reliability of PF actions. You never see an article comparing the Remington 700 to the Pre '64 yet you will see Winchester compared to Winchester by late generation experts who never really hammered either version over time or in quantity.

I didn't, because I am 57 years old. Too young to really know the pre-64 that was never available to me. This means I test, observe, decipher and quote findings based on what it is, not what fabricated legend wants it to be.

In my opinion, the newer Model 70's (NH)were a good rifle, as was the PF before that and the Pre 64 before that. Good for their times, era's and intent. The criticism I would place on the NH versions and I particularly noted this with the Super Grades was the poor quality control. The amount of rifles I have seen where the checkering was done with a blunt tool tearing up the wood, and some of it terrific wood, is damn near criminal and worthy of sacking the incompetents who both did it and then signed off on it for release as good product.

The new NC rifles are only $699 in Cabela's, if that is not a cheap price for a great hunting rifle then I would ask what is expected for that price?

They are all good, You place your own value on your own whims.

I think we are spoiled if we can knit pick which is best, better or superior. Any rifle, is as individual as its owner, and that's quite ok.

At the moment, I have more PF actions that CRF action in my gun rack. Each rifle qualifies its existence and is there because it performs both in reliability (all functions) and accruacy. I can only recommend that you look at each sample and make your decisions based on what pleases "you".

John

Call Lee24 and have him explain to you the quantum physics and extraterrestrial engineering that went into the new M70.

Depends on what year the pre-64 was built. My late model, 1963, had horrific, almost sickening machining work as if a kid had it on a grinder and the stock was worse. The stock cracked as many featherweights did but it shot 1/2" at 200 yds. Find a pre-52 and you are talking quality. I love em and want another, any caliber.

Push feeds and leopard thingies... you're perilously close to defining the essence of Ingwe.

lmao....

That's why these are still around and selling for ten times what they cost new!! All pre/64's....

A fool and his money............

Yea, and I have retired at 55.....You got to be somewhere tomorrow?

No scars on those boys...

I hope the new S.C. made rifles are good ones. Just bought one in .270 WSM. If it shoots as good as it looks I will be in great shape.

Nope but I've done something wrong if I'm working at 55.

Agreed. I don't hear many complaints about pre 64's other than late 50's and later. A good late 40's early 50's gun is a thing of beauty IMO. Like everything they are not perfect but pretty close. Complaints about pre 64's I consider douchebaggery.

I sold a pre-war 270, please send help.

Amen....

I never was impressed with Model 70's.

She sure has a nice pair of "floaties"

As Toby Keith would say, "Ea-ea-easy now."

Agree about Raquel, not sure about the other...

When you pick up a pre-64 it feels as though it has a life of its own, each one is different. The new ones are nice, but they just feel like lifeless cookie cutter rifles to me.

SU not directed at you,just general response

I don't disagree with this.. ...posted many times about how good the new SC M70's have been after shooting a good deal with 4 of them,my only complaint being failure to retain the old trigger;the new one feels very nice,better out of the box than the pre 64's and Classics......but just prefer the open trigger on a hunting rifle.

As to the "prejudice", yeah, I'm prejudiced but it didn't come overnight...it only came after years of using other stuff as well;stuff that worked "well enough",at the range....and out hunting.Well before pre 64's became collection icons....had my first pre 64 in the late 60's,4-5 years after they were discontinued.I watched the battles rage...I used them extensively before there was a book.....

We're products of our experiences...and surroundings.The HP shooters at our club would talk of dropped scores due to jams during rapid fire with other more "modern" designs.....other rifles would not shoot too well.....in Northern Maine I watched two rifles of another make,one evening,after a snowstorm,freeze solid,refuse to work....and I mean neither one would fire.Mine,a pre war M70, similarly frozen,still functioned.

I watched tiny xtractors break,leave fired cases in the chamber;pull through the rims of cases....one guy getting ready for a Cape Buffalo with a post 64 M70 458 discovered his rifle extracted half the time.........enclosed trigger housings gathered dirt,grime, oil, moisture....and just quit.......Sliding safeties that would not go off on a vaunted Euro design caused a buddy to lose a deer........bolt handles that lifted with safeties engaged,rifle failed to fire.....bolt handle popped off another one November day in NH......bolts that overrode cartridges in the magazine, failing to feed,porpoising followers, etc etc....some of this sort of stuff happened to me, more so to others as I witnessed.I watched....

I could go on....and on....and on.A pattern emerged,I could not ignore...the most generally goof proof,trouble free,reliable production rifles I saw and used tended to be pre 64's and certain Mausers.

Which is why I can look past criticims like the stocks(well hell just replace the damn thigs;they were made when people used irons and tiny low mounted scopes!);differential blueing on the receiver(along with the wavy lines, done that way to cut glare off the receiver for iron sight shooters);crooked receivers from heat treat? Yup! and the bolts, too.....they straightened them.(If this is such a problem how come they shoot so well?). The receivers are also very tough.

Crude checkering?Sure!They were not designed to be refined things of beauty.If you want refinement and beauty,you gave it to Al Biesen, Tom Shelhammer,or Dale Goens,just like today..

They were designed to be "used",as hunting rifles.The design endures,and even today,they are copied in many other designs,Ruger and Kimber coming to mind.Through all the handicaps of old machinery,primitive methods of manufacture,a great rifle emerged,that gave reliable service when others would quit......Contrary to popular belief, not all rifles work exactly as they are supposed to as they come from the factory

I took delivery of a new custom recently;I had asked the maker...."what action?" he said for a magnum case,we will both be happier if you give me a M70 Classic....I did,and it turned out great.The old pre 64 is tougher to square up.

Is it the best? I dunno....and I really don't think anyone can really say what is "best"....and really don't care.....but I am not going to judge it by silly standards of cosmetics,nit-picking about final finish,or comparing its' manufacturing methods to those of today,(whichis hardly reasonable). I will judge it by how it "works", in the field,where I hunt. In that regard, it plays second fiddle to nothing I am aware of..

The original Model 70 was introduced in the 1930's. It's main competition was the Remington Model 30S and the Savage 40/45 Super Sporter.......hardly guns to make a hunter's knees go weak looking at them or using them. Most of the European rifles based on the Mauser actions (which are superior in every way to the Model 70) were rare and high priced.

After WWII there were quite a few Mausers that came into the country, but most were military rifles that were "sporterized" by home "gunsmiths" (as were quite a few Springfield 1903's). True custom rifles built on these actions were much better than the Model 70....but once again, cost prohibative for the "average" shooter. European rifles did become a bit more common, but still not plentiful and still a bit expensive.

THAT's when the pre-64 Model 70 made it's reputation. It was the best rifle available at a decent price for more than 25 years. Even with it's shortcomings as to fit, finish and metalwork......it had no competition.

By the 1960's the "worm had turned" as they say. Remington introduced the 721/722....followed shortly by the great Model 700 and savage introduced the ugly, but cheap and effective Model 110. Browning and Husqvarna offered Mauser action rifles that were as inexpensive and better made than anything in the USA.

Still, Winchester's Model 70....with a near 30 year running start.....could have held it's own. However, the management at Winchester chose the exact moment in time when the reputation (even if somewhat undeserved) and quality of the Model 70 were the only things keeping it afloat......to introduce the cheaply made, universally critisised Post-64 push feed Models. They may have said "Model 70" on the side, but no one believed that lie.

The Model 70 steadily lost market share as shooters discovered that the Remington (no beauty queeen) and the Savage (truely ugly) were just as well made and effective as the so-called Model 70 being produced by Winchester. A few years later the final blow was struck when Bill Ruger introduced the best of the lot in the beautiful and mauser-like Model 77. True Mauser's were aslo available from many manufactures and importers. The days of the Model 70 ruling the roost were over.

By the time Winchester wised up and introduced the CRF Model 70's...the damage was done. Rugers were bettr engineered and better looking, Remingtons were accepted as reliable and more accurate, and the Savage rifles, which had always been outstandingly accurate, began to produce rifles that weren't nearly as butt-ugly as in the past (in fact some of them are almost pretty). Winchester's Model 70 would never again be "The Rifleman's Rifle"....no matter how many times Winchester said it was.

Now we have the SC Model 70's. Never mind the fact that no one even knows who owns Winchester fron day-to-day, so they can't play on the "buy American" phrase anymore. There is much more competition today than there ever was when the original Model 70 built it's reputation. Even though the new Model 70's probably ARE the best Winchester has ever made.....they will NEVER have the reputation of those Pre-64 rifles.

Older shooters grew up when the Model 70 was without peer and many younger shooters grew up reading O'Connor and those of his time who wrote so often that the Model 70 was the best rifle made (and were actually telling mostly the truth in the 1940's and 50's when they started their careers). The pre-64 rifles are LEGENDS while the new rifles.....even though technically "better" will never achieve that status. They will be accepted as one of the best rifles of their time.....but never the "best". Those times are gone with the wind.

Tex-true enough. However, I believe the frequently maligned post 64 Model 70 is a little better rifle than folks will admit. I just purchased an entry level Model 670 manufactured in the 1970s, and I have been around a number of other Model 70s from this era. For a lack of a better analogy, they are an all steel Tikka with a wing safety that also shoots. And that is not all bad. For a push feed rifle, the engineering of the magazine box, rails, ramp and receiver dimensions provide some damn good cartridge control and very slick feeding. I would venture the total cartridge control with these guys would rival many of the current over the counter so-called CRF rifles. In other words, a lot of the new �CRF� rifles sold today, which have not been timed and tuned properly, provide the shooter with less positive cartridge control than the nasty post 64 Model 70. CP.

Laffin here... JB, you especially should know better..

But I'm outta popcorn so I'll find another amusing thread..

Shiiiiit,
My 722 will outshoot your warn out old Model 70 anyday...
Stir da pot baby, stir...

This is an undeniable element in pre 64 appeal...not only do they work and shoot well....they have "history" and soul...they have been places and done things by now that a new rifle lacks.You are free to buy them, and make your own memories with them(which of course you can do with any rifle).

But also,they dwell in odd places, occupy deep dark corners and crawl spaces....come out of hiding when wiows sell them...they all have a past and the fact that old riflemen died still owning them,says something of their value and worthiness.So discovery of there existence is a welcome surprise.

Like archaeologists seeking old bones,we look for them....

I cruised the darker corners of one of New Hampshires more cluttered little gunshops yesterday afternoon......among the "other stuff",on the floor,amidst miscellaneous gun shop stuff,was a barreled action,scope mounted,which I identified,from a distance,immediately. It was a pre 64 standard grade 30/06,(the stock out to be refinished because a Philisinte had used a bowling ball finish on it).

I cleaned the barrel(mint bright,lands sharp),washed old dried grease from the working parts, trigger,lubed everything....it all worked of course.....I am waiting for the stock.

For true rifle nuts,adrenalin junkies(me) the "find" is as important as the rifle.

Pretty much sums it up and the fact that it is still being compared to offerings of 2010 is evidence of that truth. As good as that made today? In someways yes and in others no. As functional as any made today? Yes. As dynamic or refined in their handling characteristics? No. The standards have been to heavy for my use for many years and the FWT are really the only ones that interest me. Absolutely not lightweight by today's standards, but certainly not cumbersome either.

The cost cutting methods used in many rifles today leave them coming up short in my opinion. The SC Mod 70s are slowly gaining a reputation as solid rifles, much the same as the pre 64 and most of the NH offerings.

It been a winding road since 1936, but the Legend is still with us and continues to generate debate on just how good it is. Not many others can say the same.

Definitions of legend (n)
leg�end [ l�jjənd ]
old story: a story that has been passed down for generations, especially one that is presented as history but is unlikely to be true
old stories: a group of stories presented as history but unlikely to be true
modern myth: a popular myth that has arisen in modern times

If you deal yourself a bad hand, it's best to fold.


Usage Note:
Legend comes from the Latin adjective legenda, "for reading, to be read," which referred only to written stories, not to traditional stories transmitted orally from generation to generation. This restriction also applied to the English word legend when it was first used in the late 14th century in reference to written accounts of saints' lives, but ever since the 15th century legend has been used to refer to traditional stories as well. Today a legend can also be a person or achievement worthy of inspiring such a storyanyone or anything whose fame promises to be enduring, even if the renown is created more by the media than by oral tradition. Thus we speak of the legendary accomplishments of a major-league baseball star or the legendary voice of a famous opera singer. This usage is common journalistic hyperbole, and 55 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it.

Defintion of
Delusion-

de�lu�sion (d-lzhn)
n.
1.
a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
4) Shooting Sports- misty eyed romantics who get sucked into collector hype and truly believe a pre 64 m70 is the high water mark of factory bolt rifles...

Definition of Dude (Dood) - a city dweller unfamiliar with life on the range

And to a Texan, that must involve buying over rated old rifles?

I'm betting you will be a legend around here shortly. I'll just play the cards in my hand.

about "Shooterdood"
I don't think he has one,or ever used one,maybe not even had one in hand....Good start on the campfire!

Actually done all those things with pre 64 m70s..

I feel, nostalgia for the "old days" and collector hype aside, they are over rated.

If you would read some of the other comments on this thread you would see other free thinking indivduals- one a very respected writer - feel the same way.

I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the beliefs of your little "cult".

I've I could not longer find Howa/Vanguard, Remington 700's, Ruger 77's or Husqvarna/98 Mausers I'd consider running a Pre64.

I wonder if any of those will ever make it to the Cody Museum?

The "Cult" is actually larger than some realize....

Can't say as if I've ever bought anything because it MIGHT make it in the Cody museum.

Just cuzz more people voted for Obama then not don't mean much to me about majority opinion either, and I'm pretty sure there WILL be an Obama Museum/library.

First of all, based on the size of the Cody collection alone. The odds of anything you'd ever own making the cut are pretty slim. Certainly no greater than if you owned aan NIB 1962 Remington m700.

And as to the size of your "cult" , no matter what it's size, it doesn't make your beliefs correct.

The Nazi party was pretty popular in Germany at one time. That sure did not make them right.

Cattle, Sheep, Lemmings, etc all find comfort in numbers. And are equally incapable of origional thought..

'Dood...spell check,please
I certainly hope YOU are not comparing Winchester 70 owners to the Nazi party.....pretty low rent there!

So now instead of discussing the "superior" qualities of the vaunted pre 64 m70 you want to play English teacher?? LOL.. funny stuff.

Steelhead's last two posts post's had a few spelling errors. Perhaps you should chastise him as well ?

This is a net forum not English class. But it is typical when one is losing a debate to deflect matters off topic..

As to comparing pre 64 m70 fans to the Nazi party- ONLY in the sense that being popular does not make a group correct in their beliefs....

Sort of like the Democrats in 2008.

At least when I buy a pre-64 it is an investment that could have positive monetary returns in the near future. Not that I would sell one.

From your list I could live with a Howa or Ruger 77 and not feel any strain. Just wouldn't be as comfortable as I do with a Mod. 70 of about any generation.

Currently using a Nula. Great little rifle that is certainly different than a Mod. 70. Shoots excellent, and a joy to carry, but I could nit pick and feel correct in doing so. That little extractor has already had brass get under it and cause a failure to extract. Have a M700 that has done the same. The bolt handle is to small and close to the stock for my big thick fingers. On a cold day it could be a problem. Do I bash it because of this. Certainly not. Could it be better in my opinion? Yes. Do I like the rifle? Immensely.

They all have their +/- and we all have our favorites.

A Kimber is so close to being perfect, but I have my doubts they will ever get there.

Actually, if you buy a gun right, you can make money on any of them.

Cabala's gun room does it every day.

Conversely, if you get into any gun upside down and pay too much, you may not find someone to pay more than you did.

Given the amount of fakes and tinkering done to many pre 64 Winchesters, it is probably easier to get screwed buying one of them as any other used hunting rifle.

Bravo TexasRick.

I wouldn't tinker with a pre-64 Dood. I put scopes on them, shoot them, and clean them. People like me pay money for guns like these. I can't compete with Cabelas either, obviously. I am not an FFL dealer, I don't have a gun shop, selling guns isn't my profession. The simple fact is, that older, more collectible rifles, such as a pre-64 Model 70 is very likely to increase in value over time, rather than fall, like an FN.

If you deny there are not a lot of refinished / unorigional condition pre 64 M 70 rifles out there(which increase the odds of getting screwed buying one) than you sure are not looking at them very critically...

BobinNH,
Comparing Raquel to Hillary is not the same as comparing a pre-64 to a post-64, it is like comparing a pre-64 to a Rossi single shot (and insulting the Rossi).

By the way, was it the white bowling ball finish?

Who IS this shooterdood anyway?????.......and how many accounts does Lee24 have???

You look at them critically when you buy them. It is a pretty simple task when you know what you're looking at.

The "Cult" of the pre-64's,use them,buy,sell and invest in a piece of Americana....Is that really going to be done with the current tribe of rifles??..I doubt it.
These guns are what they are and what they have always been.I also feel the same about my collection of Mannlichers,Brno's and Mauser 98's.I prefer rifles that are blue and wood and craftsmanship that make them work and do not share the same materials as a "Bic" lighter.I like the character that these rifles exemplify.

1936-or even 1950-was a long time ago. Pristine examples are getting harder to find. Like old vettes-think restored 63-67 going for $100,000 plus with $50,000 being common-restoration will eventually become more commonplace. When done correctly it will have little negative impact on price as long as the gun meets original standards for parts, accuracy and function.

Addition: Check the price for a Model 21 made by CSM, which is essentially a reproduction or the current price of the Parker Reproduction shotgun if you perhaps think I out in left field.

True to my word I had a pre-64 M70 given to me. I sold it as soon as I could. Didn't want no 30-06 taking up space in my house.

Losing a debate? Wasn't aware we were having one....what do you shoot?

BTW there are no "debates' on here...there are "free-for-alls"....where anybody gets to make bald-faced assertions they expect will be taken as fact,whether true or not.Also known as "opinions',which are not fact...unless of course you qualify as an expert,which you don't....at least not so far.

Debates have rules,objective third parties to judge who "won"....just because you come on, assert a position,you believe you have "won" what your own delusion construes to be a "debate"? You lost with the first post!

Funny stuff.....

I guess some guys just have a need to walk into a room of strangers and make an impression...not caring whether it's a good one or a bad one.

And to add to Bob's point although I don't speak for Bob, for those who can articulate a point, english does matter.

Amen. Frankly, the difference between our conversations here and a true moderated debate competition is the difference between night and day.

Thank you, my brothers... Sometimes a misspelled word will happen,some grammar will slip,but to continually do it while trying to make a point loses steam with me.
Looking at his 3 hour burst of posting('dood) has slipped back below the waves and disappeared....
I found this to be an an interesting thread.....rifle

The biggest squawk every one seems to have against the pre 64 M70 is the escaping gas issue,and this is certainly well founded,but I have been spared the experience through some several tens of thousands of rounds spanning over 30 years....I suppose this is because I watch what I am doing with this and any other action.So my experience with these issues is purely anectodotal.

That said I do recall O'Connor writing that the only time he got a face full of escaping gas and particles it was from an old batch of 7x57 Mauser ammo in a 98 Mauser, which is supposedly heralded for handling escaping gas......and the photo's i have seen of wrecked Reminton 700'sand Classic M70's don't leave one with a particular feeling of comfort either....bottom line being that escaping gas can be a bad thing in any action.

Excluding guys like JB and other experts who work with much stuff,and are in a position to "kmow" what theyartalking about as a result of their profession,many on here who profess they would use a half dozen other actions before reaching for a pre 64 are certainly entitled to their opinion, but it does not seem to be based on very much experience at all.....missing from the posts is a background of any experience with the pre 64's or Model 70's of any type....so the remarks can be largely ignored FWIW.

That said the "perfect" bolt action has yet to be developed and for every argument I see condemning a pre 64 I suspect one could come up with arguments for,and against, anything else which purports to be superior.

I have a friend back here, a National match shooter who has competed here and in canada, including Wimbledon and Quantico,and Canada.He is in his 70's,is an accomplished engineer by profession,knows firearms of all types as he frequently gives expert testimony in Court cases( Unlike on here,in a courtroom, you have to be "qualified" as an expert before being allowed to testify under oath.This little detail escapes many on here).In a courtroom, you REALLY have to know what you are talking about....

Two of his match rifles are built on pre 64 M70's.He has fired well in excess of 100,000 rounds through the two rifles and has other pre 64's as well that he uses.He replaced an extractor after 40,000 rounds in one, and got annoyed.I suspect the guy shoots more rounds in a year many who profess to know WTF they are talking about on here.

Given his background, the nature of his profession, his knowledge of firearms, etc, I'm certain he would laugh his azz off at some of the drivel that passes for knowledge on here about pre 64 M70's, or anything else involving rifle actions.Given a choice between his view and some of the half-baked,ignorant, and "fly by the seat of the pance" stuff I read on here, I know who I will listen to.JMHO and YMMV

Well said, Bob..
My take has been that YES,there are some flaws on P64's ,as I find can with every firearm I pick up. The only time I ever got "gassed" was from a split case in one of my Mannlichers.It was very old ammo and should have not been fired,my bad,lesson learned,but the rifle handled it well.
In 40 so years of buying and selling and learning,I have yet to lose any money on a P64,I can not say that for others,no matter how long I had it.
Someone brought up a 1962 Remington 700,which would still not be a comparison to a 1962 M70,someone would be buying that for a "doner"... cheap.
I also would not expect any of the firearms industry people to endorse a P64,it's out of production! There is no money in it,new is new and new must be sold.The NFL or MLB no longer endorse Spading or Wilson to the degree it was done in the 50's,60's and 70's,now you have the "check-mark" or whatever that is. The Sherman tank had flaws,but you tell a WWII vet that,when he may have had his azz saved by one.Tell an old time match shooter as Bob described and see what you will learn.
Y'all have a good day....rifle

i don't have "extensive experience" with the p64 because it diddn't take that long for me to realize that all it offers are "intangibles". like the Colt SAA. kinda cool to have and to handle, but i'd druther run a Ruger Blachawk when it really matters.

nothing is perfect, so in the end, we all have to just pick a rifle, exploit its strong suits and work with it's weaknesses

Bob, I always look forward to reading your commentary on rifles, but we are going down different trails when comes to the pre-64 Model 70s. I purchased new serial # 500020 Winchester Model 70 in a .300 H&H and a lot my buddies also ran pre-64s at the time. I also was running a 58 Chevy with a 283 vette engine dropped in it at the same time in my life. I got to tell you, I am delighted that someone else owns #500020 and the Chevy, and today I am running ss Model 70 Classics and a 4x4 Dodge one ton with a Cummings.

Yesterday I was at the gun show in Whitehall, and in part because this thread, I looked closely at several pre-64s. If I did not know better, I would tell you that the swing shift millwright at the mill put these rifles up. No thank you-there are better choices today. CP.

Yeah, and if you had both those today you'd have made a pile of money..

Won't happen with the current stable..



But I understand the decision.. I don't look on the pre-64 as the ultimate in rifles.. It's an investment..

The original Ace Cobra is surpassed in quality/features by many cars today.. Yet, have an original and you can go to the bank a wealthy man..

Finn Aagaard made some interesting observations about the pre 64 in his book "Aargaards Africa":

"With the publication of the 1958 decree regarding minimum legal calibers for large game, Shaw & Hunter, the famous Nairobi gun store, imported a batch of Winchester Model 70 bolt gun chambered for the .375 H&H.

They sold like hot cakes and soon most of my hunting companions had one. They were good guns too, though not as well finished as some pre-64 Model 70 aficionados would have us believe. In fact they were quite rough and mine had to have its feed ramp smoothed before it would function with round-nosed soft-points such as the 300gr Kynoch.

Nor was the stockbedding anything to boast about. The recoil lugs were seldom in proper contact with the wood and consequently every single one of the rifles with which I was familiar has split its stock sooner or later. When that happened, we glued them back together, cross-bolted them with stove bolts or whatever was handy, and bedded them in fiberglass from an auto body repair kit. They then held together rather well....."

Finn was a smart rifle guy.....Would love to have met him.
What he is describing is the same as we do today with every other cookie-cutter gun that is on the market.At the time-frame he did this,Winchester M70's were about $125 or so....and from I have seen anything/everything will break in Africa!
I have re-read this thread several times.No one has claimed it to the "BEST",however to the guys that USE them and know what they are,they are better than the current crop of mass-produced shooters of today. We have only touched on their "collectability"

I think the real crux of the matter is that their build quality was spotty to say the least and from observations on this thread, perhaps declined towards the end of its production run???

A guy I knew had an early pre 64 in .270win and it was a lovely rifle. The finish on the metal work was excellent, a deep blue that is almost black.

The stock apparently was not so good however. He ended up re shaping it, re cutting the checkering and finally giving it a traditional low luster oil finish. I never saw the "before" but the "after" was a thing of beauty...

Many seem to forget that in the day these rifles were working mens rifles, nothing fancy and no frills, just a good working, reliable and accurate firearm.

Yep...I now wish people would stop buying them and the prices will come down...I'll buy some more of that "junk"

I'm glad that a 24 year old could stir the brain works of so many. Thank you all. Oh yeah, pre-64s RULE!

Everybody has their opinion...

For me, there isnt a 270 or 308 bolt rifle out there that I would take over a nice mid 50s M70 fwt. Also, there isnt a lever out there that I would take over a pre 1960 Savage 99. Thats me. Whatever.

Note: Non salt FN Brownings come REAL, REAL close though. They are mega cool in my book. Just dont ask me if I think they are better made than pre 64 M70s.

All the best,
RAS

CP if you read my posts on them carefully,unless I screwed up somewhere ,I don't think I ever said they were the "best"....most of my comments are directed to what they do and have done,for me .Not that there are not other rifles that will do the same job equally as well.......I walk by a lot of them, too.

I bought them with an eye toward customizing them in some way;mostly all that was required was a trigger job,and a new stock. That was all;and then you had a solid performing rifle.

This is not much different from what many on here do repeatedly with any number of factory rifles, including Rem700's,Rugers or what-not. I mean, have you ever seen more after market parts for ANYTHING than the Rem700?Many think this makes them great...my thoughts are..."if the 700 is so great,why do you need so many after market parts?".....pre 64's needed a stock;that's it....and sometimes they don't need that either.

The Kimber that some love so much is nothing more than a M70 clone(but really not quite),just lighter;ditto the Ruger Hawkeye.

I dunno what issues Finn had with that batch of M70's; I do know that once he got his 375 properly bedded in a SG stock, it became his favorite and most trusted rifle,and IIRC one of very few he brought to the US with him after hunting stopped in Kenya.He wrote of this many times in articles.Hell they are still doing articles on the rifle long after he's dead.

Of course they were not fancy,and of course the maching methods used today are superior,and the stocks better,bedding better.Hell I have owned and shot enough with todays rifles to know that.

What I sorta rail against is the "wind shield" driveby set who have never owned them, used a sample of "one",look at them in gunstores and provide a half-assed opinion that "this or that" is "better"....based on looking at them . BS......don't tell me something else is better unless you know it to be true,have shot and hunted a lot with both.

If someone like Phil Shoemaker tells me his Mauser or a modern Ruger is a better rifle than a pre 64,I'll listen....if John B tells me his ULA 30/06 is better, I'll listen;also to Aussie Gunwriter on here or Tom Turpin,I'll listen......if a modern 1000 yard match shooter tells me a Barnard or some other match action is better, I'll listen.....but if someone like Cummins cowboy comes blasting outta Utah with half-baked opinions based on likely never having owned or shot one,or hunted with one the opinion is worthless,means utterly nothing to me.Because my first question is........"how do you know this or that is better?" Have you owned,shot,and hunted with several of both?If not,the opinion is worthless.That's my point.

On that 30/06 I mentioned,here is what I "know" to be true based on my experience with them....I will bolt in the stock and mount a scope,nothing more....it will feed,fire,extract,and eject,every time I work the bolt.It will not freeze up,get dirty,and quit...it will shoot MOA or better with my handloads and some factory stuff as well.I don't know what else can be expected of a factory rifle.

Maybe I missed something, but could someone tell me again what all this pissing at each other over 46+ year old rifles has to do with the quality of the new South Carolina Model 70's?

I could not disagree with you more.

My son's 30-06 Feather weight SS is very nice.

Accurate nice wood (not great) and very good fit and finish...

I am a Rem Guy but I would get a new Win in a hart beat.


But maybe the work is inconsistent... which would suck.

Because the new SC Model 70's, as good as they are (and that's quite good by the way) are Pre-64 Winchester want-to-be's.

I don't think anyone is saying that the new Model 70's aren't good rifles and in many ways maybe a bit "better" than the originals, but they are NOT and never will be the LEGENDS that the original rifles are. It doesn't matter how well made they are......no one in the year 2080 is going to be saying "Damn, I sure wish I had one a them South Carolina Model 70's". Nope, they are still going to want the original, legendary Pre-64's.

Probably a generational thing. I (like many here) can remember when the Remington 700 was introduced and the Savage 110 was "brand new". I remember the first Ruger 77 (bought one that first year of production) and I also remember the Post-64 Model 70's. Until that time the Model 70 WAS head and shoulders above any other American-made production rifle.......and we still remember those days.

The SC rifles, on the other hand are just another example of the "me too" attitude. Nothing revolutionary and nothing special or different (or "better") than a half a dozen other rifles available today.

It's the same thing in all "modern" machines.

A brand new "crotch rocket" is probably faster, better engineered and more reliable than anything made by Harley Davidson in the 1950's and 60's. But a "real" motorcycle shakes the windows on both sides of the street when you cruise through town......and when you accelerate.....WOW!!! It rumbles and shakes and ROARS.....it DOESN"T sound like an angry bumble bee.....and you don't have to lay on your belly across the gas tank to drive it. Maybe the new bikes are "better".....but which one does everyone want to see, own and ride? Some may "want" a Yama-honda-suki because it's cheaper......but very few "dream" of someday owning one.

I don't care if your rice-burner Car (and they are ALL Chinkonese even if they "say" Ford or Chevey or Dodge on the side)will go 0-60 in three heartbeats.

A "real" car engine is measured in cubic inches (preferably more than 400 of them), not liters. It RUMBLES when it idles and ROARS when it goes.

It DOESN"T "whine". It DOESN"T look like a bar of soap that was left in the shower (all the corners melted off) and it doesn't look like all the other cars on the road. A "real" car can be identified at 100 yards just from it's unique shape....which is all about power and macho. I don't care if your modern "super car" gets 30 MPG......a "real" car does just fine burning 8 MPG (of 65 cent gasoline) and looks good doing it.

My sister-in-law has a 2008 Camero that she is soooooo proud of, while my son-in-law drives a 1968 Camero. The newer car is better engineered, gets better gas milage and supposedly is faster (I'd sure like to see that proved on a 1/4 mile track).....but guess which one draws a crowd when they are parked side-by-side???

THAT is what the Pre-64 Model 70 is all about.

You mean the one with the glued on bolt handle, fail on fire safeties that looks like a Hurst Shifter and sheet metal extractor, that 700???

Jorge , you can lead them to water............

Just getting the popcorn ready...Oh and I forgot to add the bolt knob that looks like a throat lozenge...

Outstanding !! I still don't understand why we can't have a Winchester column for us guys that appreciate the old ones...Hell,I still think Marilyn Monroe is hotter than anything grown since...'cept for that JFK thing...well,yes some of my checkering is rough...so?

I agree but with a slight twist - if I was buying the Camaro (Winchester) as an investment, family heirloom, etc., I'd buy the '68 (pre-64). If I'm buying it as a "tool" to use, for comfort (fit), performance, etc., I'm buying the 2008 (NH/SC) model. EDIT - oh yeah, same with Marilyn Monroe vs. __________ (insert name of any hot 23-30yr old )

And I'm both a huge Winchester fan and Camaro fan!

I had a '68 Camaro....flipped it 4 times(they tell me)and stopped in a corn field...too funny...now!

Say what you want about 700's. If you deny the accuracy and repeatable reliability of a 700, yes the same 700 that is used by marines and soldier snipers in combat today, than you are lying to yourself. That same 700, still isn't a pre-64, but it beats the hell out of a FN Model 70.

Not that FN's aren't accurate. I just think that from the ones I have seen, the stockmaker was using a rock to carve the stock, and the follower seems to be made out of some plastic/tin silverware mix.

Comming from your viewpoint of "pre 64 or bust" how do you come up with that?

Be specific, in terms of build quality, function, styling how is ANY currently made factory Remington m700 sporter somehow "superior" to a currently built FN m70?

I would really love to see the specifics of that argument.

While I would like to try out an FN M70 the one thing all my pre 64s have is something akin to grace. They all feel good to me and they all shoot very well. The 30-06 FWT is the worst shooter and it will hold its own with modern rifles. The others will pile 3 shot groups under an inch all day. Sometimes 5 shots, but that mostly depends on me. Maybe it is my size, but I like the stocks. For the most part the triggers are 3-3.5 pounds. I have both low comb and high comb g pre64s and neither has been a hindrance in the field.

i'd guess that there's been a good bit more hot gas escaped in dismissal of the model 70 than ever could be by misuse of them, or failed brass...


and i've heard, a good many times, about how the winchester was a "working man's rifle"... but i do not believe that to be exactly true either...
if i recall correctly, my dad claimed that a model 70 was 3 weeks gross pay, and more than most working men would go, for a deer rifle...

the working man's bolt action rifle was a 1917 enfield, lovingly sporterized with a hand saw and a wood rasp...
like my uncles...
his son, my cousin, wanted a winchester when he graduated... he got a remington... he was grateful for it, and has done well with it over many years...
but he surely wanted that winchester...

or like my dad did... an 8mm 98 mauser with, over several years, a shortened stock, a properly bent bolt handle, an added receiver sight, then a new stock, then a new barrel in 30-06...

by my reckoning the 30-06 barrel occurred after my birth but before my memories begin...
i do remember when he had it drilled and tapped, and a lyman scope installed....
his buddy was putting a new trigger in it in 1977, when he passed away... it was a work in progress....
and a rifle for a working man to work with... and on....

those were working men's rifles, to my way of thinking...

the winchester was always a step above, or so it seemed to me... doctors, lawyers, and successful businessmen carried winchesters...

my dad acquired his mauser from a friend who'd brought it home from WWII/europe... the old man had spent his war in the pacific, and had evidently found no treasures worth bringing home...

my brother and i share that old mauser, and it's quite a rifle, really...
but we grew up in the full knowledge that it just wasn't a winchester...

besides the obvious differences in who shot what for rifles, there were all of the writers who's stuff we read and talked about at the barber shop... in the wisdom of 1970, the model 70 was pretty much a "had been"...
in late 1971, i saved money from my job pumping gas, and bought my first centerfire... a remington 700 .17 rem... it was followed a few years later by a ruger 77 .243... and, over the years, a whole slew of different action types, makes and chamberings...

i first used the model 70 while i was in the army... i hunted with a friend who had a push feed .270... another friend had a pre-64 30-06....
i found a pre-64 in a pawn shop, wearing a heavy barrel in .300 h&h... how easily we slip on the slope.... i had it rebarreled to .300wm and had it restocked... what an eye opener!!!

still, after my service days i got along fine with rugers, for the most part... then remingtons for a while...
after i got married, through the late 80s & 90s i worked in a steel mill, on a millwright crew...
i still had blinders on for the model 70, but a co worker talked about the reintroduction of the "pre 64" classic model 70...

my "curious" was up, but i had pretty much what i wanted, and i continued to shoot what i had... remingtons and rugers...

in 1998, the coincidence of a remington that let me down, and a guy that owed me money, resulted in my acquisition of a NIB model 70 classic featherweight in .243....
i caught the guy that owed me coming out the door of the gunshop with the winchester in his hands... he'd told me on the phone the day before that he was dead broke...
he was almost right about that....

but he'd paid about $490 for the rifle... i still have the receipt, and although $490 was a good bit less than what he owed, i called the debt settled years ago....
the little fwt .243 was and is a gem....
and it has become, by most lights, a "working man's rifle"...
that $490 was about a 12 hour sundays work, in 1998, and i got a lot of them in that steel mill...

a very old friend, and sometimes business partner keeps it now, and will til the day he dies...
my kids have a letter with very clear instructions, and they all love him like family, anyway...
as my dad died before any of them were born, he's kinda been a grandpa to them...

my principal rifle today is a classic fwt rebarreled to 25-06...
it's everything that i ever wanted in a rifle....

still, i see the fn rifles in the rack... on average, they look better, fit and finish, than the m70 new haven classic...
and, in my eyes, that's impressive....

JohnW,

EXCELLENT POST.

I agree with your assesments.

Given the topic ofthis thread, especially the last part.

I have never seen a factory stock on a M70 that I loved(pre 64,Classic, or FN for that matter) and any that I bought and intended to use for any serious hunting I planned on re stocking any way,which is why I mostly eliminate them from any consideration.They are functional enough,but there are damn few factory stocks made by anyone that I like.Most have too much wood,grips too tight,shnable forends and other silly stuff.To me the best of the pre 64's have been the mid-50's FW's.So if I intend to use a pre 64 for any amount of hunting, the stock is gonna go....ditto for a Classic or an FN. I don't really like any of them.

I concluded a long time ago that great stocks on factory rifles,while functional, are a pipe dream....factory synthetics(most of them) absolutely suck.

IMHO the best I have seen have been the Rem 700 MR,the KS MR,and the wood and synthetic stocks made by Kimber.The wood Kimber stocks are good looking to my eye,handle nicely.The newest Ruger Hawkeyes are pretty nice, too,for a factory rifle.

The rifle used by our armed forces and a stock 700 are two quite different animals. Everything I said about the 700 is true. Do a "google" search for 700 and safeties and see how many litigation hits you get. I never "denied" anything about the 700's accuracy. The Savage also has great accuracy but big deal, it's still a cheap rifle. As to reliability check the after market business for improved 700 extractors, safeties and ways to keep the handle from falling off. Oh and don't you just love the way that safety locks the bolt down.

Accuracy is a relative term and this is good enough for me and I don't have to worry about crap falling off my rifle:

Good shootin'..you could still eat off that plate and nothing fall through....rifle

the M40A1/M40A3 action IS a M700 action. right down to the Remington trigger/safety assy, bolt handle and extractor.

The only 700 I've really cared for and they quit making it, at least I have one. I have 2 SC Featherweights, both are finished and fit nicely and both are shooters.

jorg; That works!

Didn't the White Feather use a pre 64?

I would imagine that the new FN's are every bit as accurate as your Cerberus 700's rolling off the assembly line. What exactly is the follower and floorplate assembly on the 700's made of ? Inquiring minds want to know. I think the Supergrade and Featherweight stocks are as nice a stock as one can expect for 700-800 dollars. The handle wont' break off, the extractor will always work, the trigger(not as good as the old one but as serviceable if not more then what is on the 700) and the bolt(Shock) locks in place. Of course you can cold carry your 700 for safety reasons(probably a darn good idea)

YOu do know that Cerberus/Remington have a large investment in a powdered metal company ?

Damn now you throw Carlos into the mix

Carlos Hathcock went on public record in at least one interview during his lifetime stating the if he had to choose his favorite rifle from ihs active service- it would be the Remington m700 from his second tour.

He specifically mentioned that rifle along with the Redfield 3-9 with the "tombstone" reticle as being his favorite duty sniper rig .

When I was learning centerfire rifles, had a buddy that between us we had money, time, and obsession to try everything we could. We traded at every gun show for different rifles - levers, bolts, pumps, semi's and single shots. New, used, cherished and abused in every cartridge we could find in the Denver shows. Over two years and change we did this reloading along the way, but sadly it wasn't a scientific venture. Not to say we didn't learn a couple of things.

1- every rifle has something that could be better.
2- only a few shooters can actually out shoot their firearm.
3- 30-06 180 interlocks will kill anything in North America

and last -

If you load a 45-70 to have the power of a 458 WM and load it into a Ruger #1 for someone to shoot from prone without warning - you will graduate to the lifelong status of AS@@@@@.
My shoulder still hurts after 30 years.

I have yet to see a bolt handle fall off a 700. Maybe an overzealous cycling of the bolt handle is to blame. Or maybe a little less powder in those hot loads. I do know that I own 4 700's. I also don't care that the safety desn't hold the bolt handle down. All I want a safety to do is keep the firing pin from hitting the primer. I have never had a malfunction of any kind with them and they ALL shoot sub-MOA. They are equivelant to a FN model 70 in a lot of ways. But I, nor any gun writers, ever compared a new 700 to a fabled, pre-whatever year 700. The new FN mod 70's are fine guns I am sure. But they are not put together with as much care as a pre-64. I will agree that a pre-64 stock can be plain, but the ones I have exprerienced have had a good fit. Every one of the wood stocked FN model 70's I have seen in shops have had a gap so big on either side of the barrel in the barrel channel that you could shove a ruler under the barrel, and there is usually a visual difference in that gap from one side to the other. I'm sorry gents, but I still, am not impressed.

Jeffrey to each is own I won't own a remmington just like Winchesters better. If you like remingtons go forth but your not going to change a lot of minds.

Have any of you Shot the new M70? I would take a new M70 over a pre 64 any day. Here is why the new M70 is better than the pre64

Better Metallurgy. We have progressed way passed the Nickle Steel of the 1930's.

Unless gunsmithed the standard Pre64 receivers have a uneven matte/satin finish. and a different finish on the CR/Moly Barrel.

Tighter tolerances.

Hammer Forged Barrels.

New Safety geometry. Less prone to failure.

Anti-Bind Device. Say what you will about the Push feed guns but the post 64 contributed one very useful and far better designed Anti-Bind device.

Do you really want a stock from a pre64 that is set up for open sights?

What rifle has better wood for under $800?

I love the old M70 trigger, Simple, Easy to tune, and works all the time. However, how many have you buy a gun and immediately tinker with the trigger or have it gunsmithed? What factory trigger is better than the new Model 70 MOA trigger? It is user adjustable with a simple screw 3-5 pounds. It is entirely made of Coated Stainless. It is impossible for the three lever system have any creep, take up or over travel. And it is safe, with full SAAMI Spec sear engagement. For every pound you pull on the trigger it pulls 2 pounds down on the sear and for every thousandth of travel it moves the sear 2 thousands.

I am amazed at the number of people who comment about something and have not even seen one in person. I am even more amazed at the people who comment on accuracy that have not even shot one.

Please Stop! using the Military as a estimator of the value of a rifle. They don't buy the best they buy the cheapest they can get away with. Do you really think the Beretta M9 is the best pistol made? Remington is just the Cheapest bidder. Isn't that something to be proud of.

By a rifle because of an accuracy guarantee sounds like a bad idea to me. Are there rifle so bad they have to convince you they are good by offering a guarantee. When you by tires do you buy the best you can afford or do you by the Chinese no name brand that come with a guarantee never to go flat. When I worked in a gun shop we sent back more Tikkas for accuracy issues than any other rifle. Tikkas just charges you more so they can pay to replace the bads ones they take back.

My new M70's shoot better than .5 MOA. I just wish they made them in 264 Win Mag and 7x57.

best to put this one away now...dun kilt 52 Elk and it's junk...

I think its good for at least 52 more.

A rifle who got to fulfill its intended purpose, it wreaks of cool!

Yada yada yada.. I'll still take that '66 427 Ace Cobra over a new 'Vette any day and twice on Sunday..

She's married to Michael Douglas.




Personally, I love the Mod 70 regardless of vintage.

Old Martin and Gibson guitars, the acoustics, have woodworking and finish flaws that would be unacceptable on a current production guitar. I've seen Martins with saw marks still visible under the finish.

It was a different era; things were made by human beans on simple machinery. Hand-fitting was the norm, as opposed to holding such tight tolerances that fitting wasn't necessary.

In addition, the materials themselves were simply different. Aderondack spruce and Brazillian rosewood ruled the day; both are very scarce and expensive now.

If a person wants a guitar made by humans' hands, in a bygone era, from materials that don't really exist anymore, flaws and all, then they exist. They also tend to sound fantastic.

If a person wants a perfect guitar, built to insane tolerances, with a perfect finish then THEY exist, too. And some of them sound fantastic. They do lack ANY discernable evidence of being built by a human, though.

I like old guitars. I like the patina, the hand work, the materials and the sound.

But in rifles... I like M700's and Kimbers. Go figure. Guess I see a rifle as a tool more than a romanticized relic of a bygone age.

Now if I had Bob's kind of money I could see the appeal of embarking on a rodeo getting an old M70 up to snuff.

Apparently the Army is still taking chances with these 700's despite, bolt handles falling off, extractors breaking, poor trigger design..........

US Army Awards Remington Contract to Reconfigure M24 Sniper Weapon Systems�

Madison, NC - Remington Arms Company, Inc. ("Remington"), a member of the Freedom Group of Companies, is pleased to announce that the United States Army's Joint Munitions and Lethality Contracting Center has awarded Remington a Firm Fixed Price (FFP) Indefinite Delivery/ Indefinite Quantity (ID/IQ) contract (W15QKN-10-R-0403) for the upgrade of up to 3,600 M24 Sniper Weapon Systems (SWS) currently fielded to the Army pending type classification as the "M24E1". The major configuration change for this system is the caliber conversion from 7.62mm NATO (.308 Winchester) to .300 Winchester Magnum to provide soldier's with additional precision engagement capability and range. The contract is for a five (5) year period and has guaranteed minimum value of $192K with a potential value of up to $28.2 million. This award follows a full and open competitive evaluation lasting 9 months, which began with the release of the Army's Request for Proposal (RFP) on 13 January 2010. The program will be executed under the authority of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ, and managed by its subordinate unit, Product Manager Individual Weapons.
Remington has a 22-year tradition of manufacturing long-range precision sniper rifles for the U.S. military and this award demonstrates Remington's continued leadership in the art of producing sniper rifles for military applications. The M24 SWS was competitively selected by the Army as its first purpose-built sniper rifle on 27 July 1988, and the first 100 production systems were fielded on 25 October 1988. Thus far, Remington has produced nearly 15,000 M24 Sniper Weapon Systems, and the M24 is still produced today. Each rifle is tested to meet (and typically exceeds) the requirement to fire 1 minute-of-angle (less than 2-inch group at 200 yards) before being released for fielding. Remington is the military depot-level maintenance facility for the M24 and repairs and overhauls hundreds of fielded systems each year for the Army, other military services, agencies, and nations. .

"We are honored to be providing US soldiers with the M24E1 solution - an evolutionary leap in precision engagement capability and survivability," noted Jason Schauble, Vice President of Remington's Defense Division, "Remington has made significant investments in manufacturing modernization, end-user driven research and development, and complementary technologies to provide a wide range of reliable, durable, and maintainable small arms solutions, and the M24E1 award is a significant achievement for our company and its proud U.S. workforce. "
This long tradition of production and repair makes Remington the natural choice to upgrade this venerable system for the Government. Current operations in Southwest Asia exposed the need for a more powerful and longer-range sniper round. The baseline M24 was designed from inception to chamber a longer and more powerful round than the 7.62mm NATO, so an obvious solution to the capability gap was to finally exploit the M24's long bolt action and chamber it for .300 Winchester Magnum.

The M24E1's capabilities meet the initial requirement spelled out in the Operational Needs Statement (ONS) submitted by the 10th Mountain Division on 14 March 2006 while conducting operations in Afghanistan. Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Representative Michael Arcuri (D-NY) supported this operational need and led the effort in the Congress to ensure funding of the Army's M24 upgrade program in both FY09 and FY10. Senator Schumer and Representative Arcuri were also instrumental in supporting a revision of the New York State law on suppressors to allow the Remington facility in Ilion N.Y. to possess and test military weapons.

Remington's winning sniper rifle features the following enhancements above and beyond caliber conversion from 7.62mm NATO to .300 Winchester Magnum:
- A completely new chassis (stock) assembly, which maximizes the amount of physical adjustments for the sniper to provide a true customized fit. The chassis has a folding buttstock that radically shortens the system for easier transport and greater concealment during movement and accommodates the mounting of accessories via removable Mil Std 1913 Picatinny Rails.
- An improved 6.5-20x50 variable power Leupold� riflescope with an enhanced reticle within the first focal plane and a .300 Winchester Magnum bullet-drop compensator (BDC)
- A quick-attach/detach Advanced Armament Corp.� suppressor with muzzle brake
- A 5-round detachable box magazine
- Advanced corrosion resistant coatings throughout the system

While virtually every aspect of the M24E1 has been updated and improved, the U.S. Army specifically required that the M24E1 continue to be built around the same 700� series long action and that the fire control requirement continue to be met by the combat proven M24 SWS fire control. The M24E1's fire control is set to a pull weight requirement of 3 to 5 lbs pull +/- 8oz, and has been found to survive near constant use, in and out of theater, for well over 10 years of service without adjustment or replacement.
Remington Defense looks forward to working with PM Soldier Weapons to rapidly field this system to the Army and other American military services, agencies, and allies to improve the capability of our nation's highly trained and capable snipers.

I find this comment interesting because there were no internationally recognised formal Quality Maagement Systems used when Pre-64's were made. The NC FN plant is ISO 9001 certified which is recognized in 72 countries and over 1 million businesses. Of all the Quality Management Systems ever devised, ISO is the only system that has generated 90% + decreased in non conformances to SOP's in as little as 4 months. The entire concept is to generate "Planned" results. It is not a fix it process, it is a preventative process that works "if management supports it".

That simply means that there has never been a time of superior "managed" quality.

John

Good post on the guitars,Jeff!

As to the "rodeo"....here's what it takes....

I grabbed a late model pre 64 FW,270 Win,#500,000 a couple weeks ago;one of the "really bad ones" after quality went downhill.Been in the safe,unfired, out of a collection,in my ownership about 5 years.Mint.No drag marks on the race way...you get the picture.No trigger job.Completely stock....

Slapped DD's and a 4x28 Leupold on it;tightened the screws,took it to the range.In 5 shots it was 3" high with 130 Sierra's and 60.5 H4831....real rodeo so far with that old scope that won't adjust....huh? And a good barrel that follows the scope adjustments....a cut rifle barrel, not one made in three minutes by pounding it into shape.....

Took it to 300 yards......two 3 shot groups landed 2" low and stayed easily MOA with the Sierra and the Partition. It has done the same thing each time since.....Oh BTW function is flawless....never a bauble.Same thing with the SC rifles but that is only a sample of 3-4;not multiples of ten with the pre 64's.

So,that's the rodeo...one afternoon of sighting and load workup.It shoots,and it functions,no drama, no warranty,no 24CF advise needed, no returns to the factory,no firing pin fall to adjust, no misfires(can you imagine a rifle actually leaving a factory that does not feed, fire, extract and eject????Good grief!....

And I cannot recall owning one that did not behave exactly the same wayas that 270.....

No threads on here about "My Pre 64 Won't Shoot(or feed or extract)", or "My pre 64's Bolt Handle Came Off",or the funniest one of all......"What Kind of Warranty Do I get With My Pre 64"?????.LOL!

Talk about rodeos!!...........WHAT rodeo?

Rodeos, more like gong show Bob.

Like Redneck said I like AC Cobras too, but if I want to drive the thing it's gonna be a Z06 everytime.

RD..

Based on this part-

"An improved 6.5-20x50 variable power Leupold� riflescope with an enhanced reticle within the first focal plane "

I guess they are taking chAnces on those POS Leupold's again as well.

Bob,

I bought a pre-'64 .30-06 off the used rack of a local store a couple-three years ago. It was made in 1959, supposedly too late for the best quality, but in excellent condition.

I also put a 4x28 Leupold on it, after taking the stock off and making sure everything was OK, and adjusting the trigger pull as low as it would go. Per usual, this was a little over 4 pounds, but it was a crisp 4 pounds! When putting it back together I tightened all the screws firmly, except the middle action screw, which was turned barely tight.

I grabbed some yellow-box Winchester 150-grain Silvertip factory ammo off the shelf, since I couldn't think of a better use for it. After a couple of shots at close range, the first group at 100 had all three shots touching. I let the rifle cool down and it did pretty much the same thing again.

Handloads didn't really improve anything, but as I remember there wasn't any group fired with that rifle that didn't go under an inch. Then I put it in the back of the safe until somebody offered me about 1-1/2 times what I'd paid for it.

However, I did recently buy a "shooter-grade" pre-'64 in .300 H&H that will definitely get hunted this fall. So far it hasn't shot quite as well as the .30-06, but it will do--and for some dang reason is the lightest standard-weight pre-'64 I've ever owned, 8-1/2 pounds on the nose with a 6x36 Leupold in Talley lightweights.

Well it is the Army.......not the Marines...................

You know what my pre-64 has that the FNs will never have? A serial number etched by hand into the bolt. I have danced with the queen. The FN's are wanna-be's. Simple as that. I know the 700 isn't perfect, but they are tools to me. My pre-64, that's my baby. I wish I could find a new gun, or rifle, that made me drool the way old Winchesters do. I want one, brand new, that I can call my own. The fact is, gun making is no different than making a hammer or a seat belt now. You set your machines to produce a specific part, and you slap it together. I understand efficiency. But what if I don't want efficiency? What if I want a pre-64 model 70, made just for me, tomorrow?

I had a MINT 1949 Super Grade 30-06 for a while.

I had no problems sending it down the road.

With an ill-shaped stock, and weighing about as much as the two rifles that replaced it, I just couldn't see the allure.

To each his own.

_

Ummmmmmmm you don't say! Well, I have several of those Winchester model 70 bolt action hunting rifles and about a dozen or so do have rifle (Leupold & old Redfield) scopes sitting on top the barrels. A couple even have Weaver fixed scopes on them too. Big Whoop I guess some would say. They do have all the bells & whistles on them from the factory.

Now the newer model 70 Winchester's I have not made up my mind about as of yet, just don't really need another rifle at this stage in my life. I remember speaking to an Army Sgt. one day, on how accurate those model 70 Winchester "were not" and he told me, "Yes sir! I am hoping the Pentagone gets me one of those new Remington's, so I can shoot bulleyes passed 1000 yards more regularly". "I sometimes miss with my Winchester 06 on the first shot but not often".

After reading your posts on this thread, I think your Doctor should back off your medical marijuana prescription a bit. It is clouding your judgement and well as your vision...

Speaking of "slapping" things together- here is a pic of a the top of the wrist on a mint condtion 1954 Supergrade m70 in ,270 a dealer freind sent me.

Just FEAST your eyes on that superb checkering and wrist shaping.

Hell, a drunk 12 year old can checker better than that.

Ok my popcorn is way gone and redneck is probably passed out on his floor by now. I have to say, I love my 1951 made win model 70 standard weight 06. It shoots great everytime I take it out: Last time I took it out, it shot 3/4 inch groups @100 yards with great consistancy. It's hard to explain the feeling when one is in your hands. It may be nostalgia or just the fact that it functions flawlessly and effortlessly or that it pulls up to your shoulder and points like a shotgun. I can also say the same things about my BSA sporterized m1917 also made in 1951 (what a coincidence). With these rifles, you don't need to worry about anything going wrong with them in the field. No extractor problems, triggers are simple yet effective in all temps, come with factory sights incase something happens to your scope. There's enough to worry about when your out in the field and your gun should be one of the last things on the list. Nostalgia yes, or is it the confidence you have when that animal is in the sights and you know it's all up to you.

JB: Likely it's the stock weight that is lighter.THAT sounds like a keeper!I know you like the 300H&H

Sounds like you did a Marc and switched scopes

I REALLY don't know what to tell you. 1964 was the turning point for many rifles and the way they were produced. Mass production and price competition forced this. Personally, I think the model 70 was over rated. I honestly think the Remington 700 is and was always an egual. That said, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I just aquired this post 64 and I think I did great. Not only that, but it's a .338 Win. Mag. I got some goodies with it and I bought is from an internet friend and fellow Savage lover.

Here's the gun




And here's the goodies. Including the original stock, box, and paperwork. Gun dates to 1975

1975 Vintage P/F Model 70 chambered for 300 Win Mag.Minus the chitty pencil thin barrel.

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"~TW~

I really like the new Model 70.

Good post...

And no, not passed out yet.. Love this discussion..

If everybody felt like I did, there'd be no other manufacturers and certainly none with the new MOA WOWZA-TRIGGER..

That wouldn't be any fun now, would it??

I really like the new Mod 70s too

Just sayen... again

I'm sorry but I just can't warm up to any model 70. I've owned and shot model 700's all my adult life, own three currently, one since 1967. I've never once had so much as an inkling of trouble with the push feed or the extractor, or anything else on them for that matter. I even owned a pre '64 .270 for awhile once. I tried and tried but I just couldn't see what all the hoopla was about. It was'nt as good as my 700, even in looks. I finally sold the 70 for just what I gave for it and never looked back. I have no problem with anybody else that likes them and shoots them. I just don't get the craze over them.

I agree but I think the new Model 70s are the best Model 70s so far.

You know it's odd.....I could never warm up to the Model 70 either.

I LOVE the Mauser 98 rifle and sporters made on that action and to me at least, the Model 70 was a Mauser want-to-be that fell short. The Mauser was smoother to operate, more reliable and safer (gas handling) and , to me, looked a lot better.

The Model 70 safety was interesting, but I always felt it basically solved a problem that didn't exist (I somehow always managed to unload my rifles without shooting my foot off.....without a 3-position safety).

When the Ruger 77 was introduced it beat the Post-64 Model 70 in every way.....and when the MKII Rugers appeared, they beat the Pre-64 Model 70's. They were better looking and closer to a true Mauser action......and had the 3-position safety too (even if I didn't think it was "needed"....it was kind of neat).

Even today I prefer the Ruger Hawkeye (hate that name....a Ruger "Hawkeye" is a single shot pistol no longer made, not a rifle) and a good Mauser sporter to the new SC Model 70's.

However, even though I don't "love" the Model 70.....I DO accept that the Pre-64 Model 70's are legendary and in a class of their own (particularly if judged by their peers at the time of their production). No real Rifle Looney can call his collection complete without at least one Pre-64 Model 70.

That statement cannot be said of the new SC rifles.....even though they are very, very good.

TR,

I agree with you about the Rugers.

I have a similar background as yours with bolt action sporters, and agree with your overall frame of historical reference.

A far as "legend" status goes, the FN S.C. made m70s have only been out two years now. They are at a marked disadvantage to any pre 64 in terms of time alone- ot matter how good they may be.

They are off to a LOT better start in terms of price ,quality and performance than all their detractors beleived when first announced.

They already have a rep for shooting/working better out of the box than 90% of the post 64 New Haven guns given guns of the same weight and caliber- especially the later USRAC rifles. I sure as heck haven't heard of many malfunctions or feeding problems ,either.

Even the pre'64 m70 was a "new" design at one time. If the quality is kept up, the new m70s will be well thought of in their own right over time by folks who judge the rifles on their own merits rather than comparing them to guns made 50 to 75 years ago.

For me a rifle needs to be MOA out of the box. That's why I don't care much for the older Winchester, Rugers, or commerical Mausers.

The Model 700s & the New FN Winchesters make the cut.

you must love getting pounded....

It's always more important to be right, than to be popular.

you are neither. right now it looks like you have a better chance at "popular" no matter how silly that seems.

Gee, I never knew until reading Swampman's post that Rem. 700's were the only sporting rifle that will shoot MOA out of the box. Guess I'll just have to sell off all those Rugers, Winchesters and even commercial Mausers that have done it right away.

As a matter of fact just last week I bought one of the Ruger Hawkeyes in 6.5 Creedmoor and the very first 5-shot (not 3-shot) group with FACTORY ammo measured .63". And yes, that was right out of the box.

Don't forget the Weatherbys. Both of mine (Mark V and Vanguard) shot sub moa groups right out of the box.

I try not to think about Howa/Weatherby.

If you love to tinker the Rugers may be your cup of tea. The last one I owned took about 20 range trips but it finally shot ok. All of the inaccurate rifles I've ever owned have been Rugers.

It's not impossible to find an accurate off brand rifle but even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in awhile.

Oh, I was just specifically mentioned all the rifle makers that Swampman suggested won't shoot.

I own three Weaherby's (a Vanguard, a Mark V ULW and a regular MarkV) and all three started shooting sub-MOA out of the box. None of the three is even a "Sub-MOA" model....

Aside from those I've shot two Browning X-Bolts that were also sub-MOA with factory ammo with no modifications, and several Savages in chamberings from .204 to .338 Lapua.

Then there are the Ruger No. 1's that shot right out of the box. I'd say at least half of the new ones I've purchased in the past decade will do it as well.

Gee, maybe Remingtons aren't the only 1-inch factory rifles around!

My Tikkas will shoot inch groups, but I have to back off to 200 yards to get them to do it... Kind of a pain, really

Damn! I've seen the same problem with Tikkas. They must all be defective.

Same deal with most Sakos I've shot.

I don't buy foreign made rifles. My friends do though and I'm not impressed at all.

You do on scopes, what's the difference?

Ingwe

Dogger,

IMO, you made the right choice by a mile. I have own multiples of both and the CZ-550 doesn't even come close to the Ruger M77MkII in many ways. If you ever decide to get rid of that Ruger, contact me please. Thanks.

Big Redhead
You did right by purchasing the 7X57- There is much to be learned from owning a rifle where the bullet is slow enough to watch from muzzle to target about leading moving targets, drop and wind drift.

Royce

I do get to do a lot of free shooting trying to get the "off brands" my friends own to shoot.

Swampman reminds me of Lee24 but with brain damage.

LMAO.

You mean like this out of the box?


Or maybe one of these "out of the box" beauties...:

A Remington can be broken plenty of boneheads manage to do it. Frequently they try to hammer the bolt open with a rock after shooting a load that's too hot. The Model 70 bolt is constructed the same way a Mossberg bolt is ancan cause a dangerous situation if they aren't tack welded.

How do we know the target is valid? Maybe 10 yards. Maybe a Remington. Maybe shot last night.

If you know your rifle(s), than you don't care what other people say about them. I shoot Remmies, Pre-64's, you know, good stuff like that.

In an ever changing world its nice to see an occasional constant...like your IQ...

Your Vitriol level is up over the mark on the dipstick though....

Ingwe

I'm tickled with my FN Model 70!

I shot these two last night for you as well, the first one is a 1962 Vintage 338 at 10 yards and the second target is a pre-war (1941) 300 H&H and that one was at 20 yards just for you.




And just to piss you off even more, I'd rather hit a body appendage with a ball peen hammer than own one of those POS with the glued on bolt handle that looks like a throat lozenge, flimsy sheet metal extractor, fail on fire safety that can't even lock the bolt (just google 700 safety and law suits) and looks like a hurst shifter.

Valid? what is valid is you obviously swam at the shallow end of the gene pool....

You can't piss me off. Your opinions mean nothing.

I think the two of you should post pics of what you've DONE with rifles, so we can see what you're basing you're opinions on.

I bet I know who wins...

OK...lets try "reverse" psychology...





Ingwe

Can I get in on this..?

I'll take jorge and a seven point spread....


Ingwe

The pics mean nothing. Anyone can post bogus targets.

Did you go to school stupid or did you just come out that way?

Ingwe

Wanna see what swampy has done with a rifle?

http://www.realtree.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75679

I meant pics of you with a dead critter that you killed with your rifle of choice. Start hangin 'em.

"I don't think I've ever seen a Remington .30-06 with a 24" Barrel..."

Yep...Swampy really knows his Remingtons....


Ingwe

I think I'll trade this in for one of those...

[bleep], I can't hardly stand to be around a Winchester M70 but Swampy is making me like them...

The giant knife casually laying around let's you know he means business.

TFF.....

the "truly outstanding" X-mark trigger, the "vintage" Weaver rings... and the "Realtree Hardwoods" stock kinda let you know where he's coming from

Lets not forget this classic
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3233158/1

Since you asked, here's the last kill (at ten yards of course) with that inaccurate pre-War 70 300 H&H in Texas about this time last year...

And this one with that 375 H&H (you know the one with the bogus target at ten yards):



So Swampgas, show us something you took with that camo ADL or was that your boat paddle. lol.

PS: did you google Rem 700 safety yet or should I ask, do you know how to do that???

Not a big one but at least I didn't shoot him in a pen....Running shot 60 yards 165 grain Remington Core-Lokt

This one from the "pen" known as Dande North is Zimbabwe. Man, I wonder who payed for the fence to cover about fifty thousand square miles? Any idea Swampcrotch?



Oh and just to show you we all can't shoot big ones, this is my son's first deer from the swamps in SC.

Folks be warned about arguing with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with years of experience.

Guilty! of being an idiot???

....it gets crazier on here every night.....but it is entertaining.I am learning so much that I didn't know......

Bob, you have my permission to plant a 130 grains of friendliness behind my left ear if I ever get that far gone.

Make sure you give Bob an aimpoint about 3" below your ear. No turrets you know...

Swampman, I don't wanna say anything bad about your picture. But this is your chance to show us with one pic why we should listen to you. And a sixty yard shot at a dnk ain't gonna cut it for me.

Good point, he'll likely take my jaw off, bastid.....

Good thing it was a Remington, any other factory rifle would have missed at 60 yards!!

i doubt we'll see that pic on Scenarshooter's web site pluggin' his slings...

I hope I get to go to Texas or MO and shoot some of those pen raised animals like you guys. Are they retired circus animals or maybe from a zoo that's gone bankrupt?

I didn't like the sling and I traded it off.

Now I understand why he needs MOA out of the box. It's obviously to shoot off one of the antlers to save the meat.

I recognize that handwriting lol!!

Nice! What's your boy got there? I can see it's a nice FWT, can't tell if it's a short or long action?

MO is Missouri. MT is Montana.

They have lots of animal farms in Missouri. Was it fun?

No [bleep].........pun intended

hey stupid, do you know where Dande is?

This place do crack me up at times.

I'm sorry Bob but that... right there... is FUNNY!

This is me bringing my last buck out. Almost halfway to the truck, from the far side of the frame.

But it's cool that you were able to drive yours up to the front porch, too...

Some folks are smarter than others.

And your "poasts" make 99% of the folks here look pretty darned intelligent by comparison.

Good poast Swampy...


Ingwe

I'm starting to wonder if Swampy is the degree-free version of Lee24. He seems to be just as proud of his "accomplishments" and what he thinks are real cyberspace zingers.

Shot in the azz?

Running shot...........

exactly what I thought. Lee24 but with brain damage

Lee's PB account was pretty mundane; a lethargic, swollen tow truck driver with an internet ego.

Swampy's internet legacy might well be "one Swampy and a cup" or "Swampy and a glass of ballsnot" or "Two Mules for Sister Swampy".....

Let it go fellas, let it go.....

Fixt it for ya!

Ingwe

They say it is progressive.......

It would certainly seem so...

Ingwe

Yes and slightly more articulate than Bricktop.

Perhaps degenerative would have been a better word.

It was the far east scope...............................

I love it when a thread degenerates...


Ingwe

Speaking of which, did you know Framis called me a Thread Pirate this morning?

Pirates are so cool.

Which one are you from?

Love it when someone like Framis thinks the rest of the world is [bleep] up.

Maybe we should change your title from Grand Poobah to Degenerate in Chief.

But he posted this...hmmm

Nooo! I just made it to Turdlike....do you know how long it would take me to get to Degeneratlike?

Oh, wait, I am already there...as you were!

Don't worry. You can still be a turdlike degenerate.

Actually, that has a bit of a ring to it...

No, No.

You don't get gravy until you add hot water to the Gravy Train.

Here's one Slip Sinker will recognize. Swampman can look for a yellow tent in the bottom center. Aaaaaallllmost a game farm, but not quite.

Its denigrate folks, and it has been successful......

Ah, yes, that high fenced game ranch.

Scott it'll never get that far... like all of us you have opinions,but your intelligence and common sense will always prevail.

There are a few humans on this forum. The rest are on ignore.

But who took the picture? These can be lifted from anywhere on the net.

Yep, guessing you pulled this one off a Men for Boys forum? Where is your little tri-fold hat you use to wear...

I always thought it was traditional to hit them at the other end of the body...Unless behind the "rear shoulder" is considered good shot placement these days??

The bullet hit the spine and passed between the front legs. When they are running down a 60 degree incline that can happen. I don't hunt in pens or over piles of corn. This eight year old buck needed to go. The meat was excellent.

You guys should try fair chase hunting. It's fun but you can't alway's get a 100% kill ratio like pen hunting.

Swampman, You should really consider entering Ingwe's Dink-O-Thon this year.

Sounds like most of it was mullered by the shot placement..



And your the only one who hunts fair chase / free range?? TFF!

seems to me all rifle sales are "local", as in some brands are popular in a given geographic area while others are not. win rifles are not popular in my area! a local gun shop has had 2 m70 ew's (270 and 06') on the rack for almost a year. and they had a featherweight (7/08) for at least 6 months. i think the new sc m70 is as good as any mass produced rifle today, and less likely to be difficult than say a kimber (i've owned 2 cf's and one .22). the comparrison between the pre-64 and the sc m70 is nothing more than an exercise in futility. pre-64 were generally put together by hand because that was all there was back in the day. that point in history has passed! today, no one puts them together by hand unless it's truly a custom rifle (with the big price tag). one can't honestly compare a pre 64 to today's fn m70. i'm sure the fn target audience is one who wants a nice looking rifle that will go bang everytime. fn is targeting buyers wanting something a little more than a savage (not a slam just an observation) or a low end rem 700. in that regard, they have a fine offering in the new m70.

as for petzal and other writers, if they don't write (and more importantly get published), they don't get paid. we can all do the math ref: gun writers.

some find the crossbolt attractive, and it stregthens the stock at a critical point. a crossbolt adds to the cost of each unit, but clearly win designers thought this addition was either desired or required.

i suspect if win made the m70 and m12 today, using practices common in the 50's and 60s', they would sell some units, but not many as the price would equal a custom gun today. the vast majority of buyers (the target audience for almost every gun manufacturer today) can't afford a custom.

remember, the rem 700 and 870 have outsold the m70 and m12 by millions of units. they gave (and continue to give) the general buyer what he/she wants. personal preferences, nostalgia, etc. aside, it is what it is.

Swampy LOVES to play dress up!

Have you put me on ignore???


( please, please say it is so.....I have goals....)



Ingwe

If thats an eight year old buck in that pic, then I have killed some in their thirties...



Ingwe

How in the hell could you know it was exactly eight years old?

Unless you raised it in a pen?

Have you been pen hunting?

I thought the same thing, It probably looked huge through the blister pack scope/bino combo

Appears he executed a perfect ass shot on the dink.

That picture tells alot of stories.

Seen them on sale at Target...you know its a good Sporting Goods store if its named "Target"...



Ingwe

Mr. Fair Chase has his loop sling on backwards. LOL.

Why do need a sling to hunt out of a golf cart, just sayin...........

Dog years....

I actually use my Montana sling like that too, pop the rear swivel quick, thread your arm through the loop & you have a nice sling suport for stability. I didn't think it was going to work well for shoulder cary with the loop on the bottom but it actually works well, mine don't slip.

But I kept mine, I love the sling and I'll be buying more. swampy said he hated his and traded it off.

Dang Dave, you and Swampy must have some long ass arms.

The loop is supposed to be forward. You can still unhook the rear.

I don't think you understand what I was trying to explain.

forget that though, who's rifle is that?

He does that alot Dave...

Heres a pic of him all grown up...( that IS him as a child in his avatar...)




Ingwe

An image I found with a quick google search.



dig?


The loop in the rear just makes it handy for a "full sling" shooting suport. Which I am not sure I've ever used for hunting with this sling... yet.

But it is an available option to me while carying that rig.

You can take the man out of the Marines But you can't take the Marine training out of the man.

Oh dear, succinct, yet very turdlike....and funny

I shot 1907's, Turner slings in the military. They are designed for rear loop use.

The Montana ain't. That was me point Jethro.

As for the rifle, I thought it was yours...with the Montana sling on correctly.

My montana sling is on my 264

That's a nice 88 you posted, figured it was yours maybe. For a moment there I thought A-bolt man was going to move up a notch in my book.

Why fool with one of those when you can have a BLR?

I had a BLR, once.



Don't get me started on BLR's it'll ruin my whole day.

You probably put the bullets in the magazine backwards, (like the sling

This will cause feeding issues.

I always thought Marines were brave, just not very smart.

My problem was with a plastic bushing that the intermediate action gear rode on, the POS would hop out of time & jam up frequently. God I hated that BLR.

Was that a push feed ?

Pete , great pics

Dave, you gotta get the older steel receiver model 81's man.

No plastic.

The sling is on right. It was as stiff as a shoe sole because it was 1/4 inch thick.

That is a Montana if I am not mistaken. It has only one loop in it.

That loop attaches to the forearm of the rifle.

It bees backerds.

Wrong....but I ain't surprised

Mine was a straight grip short action steel receiver 81.

There is a twin gear wheel in there about the size of a quarter.

A small diameter gear face that's on one side which rides on the half moon lever gear & the OD of the overall wheel has a gear face that interfaces with the bolt rack.

This all rode on a receiver pin & the gear had a plastic bushing in it. The gear teeth were so tiny that there was little room for error & you would be hopping gear teeth. Which was very bad because those actions are timed so the bolt rack is in a particular position in relation to the lever. The POS would let the bolt rack over travel rearward and it would lock up on you in the open position.

My buddy had one in a long action that did this to him while hunting. 270

He shot at a deer and either hit poorly or missed I don't remember but he went for a quick follow up shot and it locked open on him. Adrenaline & despair set in as he watched his buck bounding out of range & he forced the lever hard. He stripped the fragile little gears in the action while doing so.

His hunt was over.

Broken rifle.

His was also a steel receiver 81.

yep, backerds.

Mine is on backerds in this photo but it's intentional.

I know the gear you are referring too. It's the cocking gear assembly. I have seen them made out of a hard nylon type material but mine is steel.

That plastic does suck though.

The gears were steel, my buddy Tommy's gear teeth busted off. But there was a black plastic button bushing that pressed into the center of the gear. I had heard most had brass and that you could get a brass one to replace the plastic but my affection for the BLR had expired so down the road it went.

That was mean and uncalled for. I've seen a few where the teeth on the bottom of the bolt was buggered up, might have been what was causing that.

BTW, You should get into the dink contest this year, that one would have been hard to beat.

I think I'm going to take the title though.

Come on Swampman. We're hanging pics of free range hunts. Surely you can do better than a 60 yard dink on the back of a golf cart.

Give it your best shot.

24 pages deep and I someone answers the post. Good post soup. I was playing with my Kimber yesterday and I think I will have to settle for them in regards of build and fit finish. I know Kimber's can have problems (mine did) but my experience with Kimber Customer Service has been good enough to keep me happy.
As for the rest of you guys going back and forth (Swampy, George with a J, ...) when are ya'll gonna get together for a date? You two could learn a lot from one another.

Hmmm......

http://www.montanagunslings.com/gun_sling_video.php

So Swampcrotch, I guess I must be on ignore as I asked you if you knew where Dande North was or even Zimbabwe but here a hint for you: It's in the north of Zimbabwe near the Zambesi river and there isn't a road, pen or corn for that matter within a thousand miles(if you put corn out about all you'd catch would be natives), but then again I could have just lifted those pictures of the internet. Oh and if that deer is eight years old you better call the Game Warden and have them check for CWD.

I'm tellin' ya, he's measuring in dog years.

That would make it a Wyomimg sling????

That's just the manufacturer's opinion of how its supposed to work.