Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Not impressed with the new Model 70's

Yeah, and if you had both those today you'd have made a pile of money..

Won't happen with the current stable..



But I understand the decision.. I don't look on the pre-64 as the ultimate in rifles.. It's an investment..

The original Ace Cobra is surpassed in quality/features by many cars today.. Yet, have an original and you can go to the bank a wealthy man..

Finn Aagaard made some interesting observations about the pre 64 in his book "Aargaards Africa":

"With the publication of the 1958 decree regarding minimum legal calibers for large game, Shaw & Hunter, the famous Nairobi gun store, imported a batch of Winchester Model 70 bolt gun chambered for the .375 H&H.

They sold like hot cakes and soon most of my hunting companions had one. They were good guns too, though not as well finished as some pre-64 Model 70 aficionados would have us believe. In fact they were quite rough and mine had to have its feed ramp smoothed before it would function with round-nosed soft-points such as the 300gr Kynoch.

Nor was the stockbedding anything to boast about. The recoil lugs were seldom in proper contact with the wood and consequently every single one of the rifles with which I was familiar has split its stock sooner or later. When that happened, we glued them back together, cross-bolted them with stove bolts or whatever was handy, and bedded them in fiberglass from an auto body repair kit. They then held together rather well....."

Finn was a smart rifle guy.....Would love to have met him.
What he is describing is the same as we do today with every other cookie-cutter gun that is on the market.At the time-frame he did this,Winchester M70's were about $125 or so....and from I have seen anything/everything will break in Africa!
I have re-read this thread several times.No one has claimed it to the "BEST",however to the guys that USE them and know what they are,they are better than the current crop of mass-produced shooters of today. We have only touched on their "collectability"

I think the real crux of the matter is that their build quality was spotty to say the least and from observations on this thread, perhaps declined towards the end of its production run???

A guy I knew had an early pre 64 in .270win and it was a lovely rifle. The finish on the metal work was excellent, a deep blue that is almost black.

The stock apparently was not so good however. He ended up re shaping it, re cutting the checkering and finally giving it a traditional low luster oil finish. I never saw the "before" but the "after" was a thing of beauty...

Many seem to forget that in the day these rifles were working mens rifles, nothing fancy and no frills, just a good working, reliable and accurate firearm.

Yep...I now wish people would stop buying them and the prices will come down...I'll buy some more of that "junk"

I'm glad that a 24 year old could stir the brain works of so many. Thank you all. Oh yeah, pre-64s RULE!

Everybody has their opinion...

For me, there isnt a 270 or 308 bolt rifle out there that I would take over a nice mid 50s M70 fwt. Also, there isnt a lever out there that I would take over a pre 1960 Savage 99. Thats me. Whatever.

Note: Non salt FN Brownings come REAL, REAL close though. They are mega cool in my book. Just dont ask me if I think they are better made than pre 64 M70s.

All the best,
RAS

CP if you read my posts on them carefully,unless I screwed up somewhere ,I don't think I ever said they were the "best"....most of my comments are directed to what they do and have done,for me .Not that there are not other rifles that will do the same job equally as well.......I walk by a lot of them, too.

I bought them with an eye toward customizing them in some way;mostly all that was required was a trigger job,and a new stock. That was all;and then you had a solid performing rifle.

This is not much different from what many on here do repeatedly with any number of factory rifles, including Rem700's,Rugers or what-not. I mean, have you ever seen more after market parts for ANYTHING than the Rem700?Many think this makes them great...my thoughts are..."if the 700 is so great,why do you need so many after market parts?".....pre 64's needed a stock;that's it....and sometimes they don't need that either.

The Kimber that some love so much is nothing more than a M70 clone(but really not quite),just lighter;ditto the Ruger Hawkeye.

I dunno what issues Finn had with that batch of M70's; I do know that once he got his 375 properly bedded in a SG stock, it became his favorite and most trusted rifle,and IIRC one of very few he brought to the US with him after hunting stopped in Kenya.He wrote of this many times in articles.Hell they are still doing articles on the rifle long after he's dead.

Of course they were not fancy,and of course the maching methods used today are superior,and the stocks better,bedding better.Hell I have owned and shot enough with todays rifles to know that.

What I sorta rail against is the "wind shield" driveby set who have never owned them, used a sample of "one",look at them in gunstores and provide a half-assed opinion that "this or that" is "better"....based on looking at them . BS......don't tell me something else is better unless you know it to be true,have shot and hunted a lot with both.

If someone like Phil Shoemaker tells me his Mauser or a modern Ruger is a better rifle than a pre 64,I'll listen....if John B tells me his ULA 30/06 is better, I'll listen;also to Aussie Gunwriter on here or Tom Turpin,I'll listen......if a modern 1000 yard match shooter tells me a Barnard or some other match action is better, I'll listen.....but if someone like Cummins cowboy comes blasting outta Utah with half-baked opinions based on likely never having owned or shot one,or hunted with one the opinion is worthless,means utterly nothing to me.Because my first question is........"how do you know this or that is better?" Have you owned,shot,and hunted with several of both?If not,the opinion is worthless.That's my point.

On that 30/06 I mentioned,here is what I "know" to be true based on my experience with them....I will bolt in the stock and mount a scope,nothing more....it will feed,fire,extract,and eject,every time I work the bolt.It will not freeze up,get dirty,and quit...it will shoot MOA or better with my handloads and some factory stuff as well.I don't know what else can be expected of a factory rifle.

Maybe I missed something, but could someone tell me again what all this pissing at each other over 46+ year old rifles has to do with the quality of the new South Carolina Model 70's?

I could not disagree with you more.

My son's 30-06 Feather weight SS is very nice.

Accurate nice wood (not great) and very good fit and finish...

I am a Rem Guy but I would get a new Win in a hart beat.


But maybe the work is inconsistent... which would suck.

Because the new SC Model 70's, as good as they are (and that's quite good by the way) are Pre-64 Winchester want-to-be's.

I don't think anyone is saying that the new Model 70's aren't good rifles and in many ways maybe a bit "better" than the originals, but they are NOT and never will be the LEGENDS that the original rifles are. It doesn't matter how well made they are......no one in the year 2080 is going to be saying "Damn, I sure wish I had one a them South Carolina Model 70's". Nope, they are still going to want the original, legendary Pre-64's.

Probably a generational thing. I (like many here) can remember when the Remington 700 was introduced and the Savage 110 was "brand new". I remember the first Ruger 77 (bought one that first year of production) and I also remember the Post-64 Model 70's. Until that time the Model 70 WAS head and shoulders above any other American-made production rifle.......and we still remember those days.

The SC rifles, on the other hand are just another example of the "me too" attitude. Nothing revolutionary and nothing special or different (or "better") than a half a dozen other rifles available today.

It's the same thing in all "modern" machines.

A brand new "crotch rocket" is probably faster, better engineered and more reliable than anything made by Harley Davidson in the 1950's and 60's. But a "real" motorcycle shakes the windows on both sides of the street when you cruise through town......and when you accelerate.....WOW!!! It rumbles and shakes and ROARS.....it DOESN"T sound like an angry bumble bee.....and you don't have to lay on your belly across the gas tank to drive it. Maybe the new bikes are "better".....but which one does everyone want to see, own and ride? Some may "want" a Yama-honda-suki because it's cheaper......but very few "dream" of someday owning one.

I don't care if your rice-burner Car (and they are ALL Chinkonese even if they "say" Ford or Chevey or Dodge on the side)will go 0-60 in three heartbeats.

A "real" car engine is measured in cubic inches (preferably more than 400 of them), not liters. It RUMBLES when it idles and ROARS when it goes.

It DOESN"T "whine". It DOESN"T look like a bar of soap that was left in the shower (all the corners melted off) and it doesn't look like all the other cars on the road. A "real" car can be identified at 100 yards just from it's unique shape....which is all about power and macho. I don't care if your modern "super car" gets 30 MPG......a "real" car does just fine burning 8 MPG (of 65 cent gasoline) and looks good doing it.

My sister-in-law has a 2008 Camero that she is soooooo proud of, while my son-in-law drives a 1968 Camero. The newer car is better engineered, gets better gas milage and supposedly is faster (I'd sure like to see that proved on a 1/4 mile track).....but guess which one draws a crowd when they are parked side-by-side???

THAT is what the Pre-64 Model 70 is all about.

You mean the one with the glued on bolt handle, fail on fire safeties that looks like a Hurst Shifter and sheet metal extractor, that 700???

Jorge , you can lead them to water............

Just getting the popcorn ready...Oh and I forgot to add the bolt knob that looks like a throat lozenge...

Outstanding !! I still don't understand why we can't have a Winchester column for us guys that appreciate the old ones...Hell,I still think Marilyn Monroe is hotter than anything grown since...'cept for that JFK thing...well,yes some of my checkering is rough...so?

I agree but with a slight twist - if I was buying the Camaro (Winchester) as an investment, family heirloom, etc., I'd buy the '68 (pre-64). If I'm buying it as a "tool" to use, for comfort (fit), performance, etc., I'm buying the 2008 (NH/SC) model. EDIT - oh yeah, same with Marilyn Monroe vs. __________ (insert name of any hot 23-30yr old )

And I'm both a huge Winchester fan and Camaro fan!

I had a '68 Camaro....flipped it 4 times(they tell me)and stopped in a corn field...too funny...now!

Say what you want about 700's. If you deny the accuracy and repeatable reliability of a 700, yes the same 700 that is used by marines and soldier snipers in combat today, than you are lying to yourself. That same 700, still isn't a pre-64, but it beats the hell out of a FN Model 70.

Not that FN's aren't accurate. I just think that from the ones I have seen, the stockmaker was using a rock to carve the stock, and the follower seems to be made out of some plastic/tin silverware mix.