In 2019 I shot 3 bears.
First was a spring black bear (350lb.)I shot 3 times from 80 yards. First shot was shoulder/lung, second was lung/lung, third was lung/heart. He still had about 45 seconds of fight in him after the third shot.
Second bear was a brown bear from 150 yards. Hit him twice. First shot was shoulder into chest. He ran uphill and I sent a quartering shot just behind his ribs into his chest cavity. I waited 45min and followed him. Blood everywhere, after 1/2 mile I found bone fragments from his shoulder. I followed him through a burned area of forest for 4.5 miles and lost him when he crossed a river.
Third was a brown bear a few weeks later in late fall. First shot was double lung from 100 yards. Watched him run across a creek and onto a hillside. Second shot was lung/gut from about 400 yards. 9 foot bear. I found one bullet. It had great expansion, penetrated about 2 feet and was intact.
Im shooting a Tikka T3 lite .338wm with my favorite reloads. 225 sp's (its what my rifle likes). Ive had problems not dropping caribou also. Its not a matter of accuracy. Im just tired of chasing [bleep]. Especially when its big game a long ways from the boat. Does anyone have moose/brown bear experience with .375 ultra mag .416 ruger, or .416 rem mag? Specifically have you had multiple well placed shots and watched them keep running?

What 225 bullet are you using?

Sierra 225 gr sbt

Well, there’s maybe the problem. I’ve found sierras softer than I like with deer, I’d never use them on a brown bear, especially on any sort of angle requiring much penetration. Use a good bullet for good results.

I'd change loads before I gave up on the .338 for Bear. More isn't necessarily better when you already have enough.

Ive never heard that about sierra. I went through 6-7 different bullets trying to get the best accuracy. Hornady, berger, sierra, nosler, ect. From 200-250 grain. Thats what I found for the best accuracy.

210 Or 225 Nosler Partition, or Barnes 210 TTSX. Whichever shoots better. I swore off Sierra billets for big game over 30 years ago. The .338 is a dandy bear cartridge.

Oh bears are really easy to kill...😂😂😂

Curious as to how you know the impacts and exits when you didn't recover the animals?
Doesn't nosler make a .338 partition?

I only lost one of the bears. He was wet and 100 yards away when shot. I could see where it hit him. I didnt say I could see exits.

I think, if I read right, he recovered 2 out of the 3? I've hesrd the same about Sierra bullets from the old timers in deer camp who also used to shoot black bears. Never used them firsthand, though.

I don’t have experience with 338 or bears. But my barnes ttsx slices through elk and haven’t recovered one bullet yet. Even through shoulder I haven’t recovered one.
Only bullet I recovered was shooting a bull behind the skull when he was still alive when I walked up to him. Dug it out and it lost a pedal on a rock. Other wise I think it would have stayed On.
Can’t say that about lot of bullets.

I predict you will catch hell before this thread is over... I will not add to that, I will say this is a lesson in choosing the proper bullet for the job.

After a poor performance with a Sierra 225gr. on whitetail I have gone to Hornady 200gr. Inter-lok for deer. If I were hunting larger game a 250gr. Inter-lok would be my choice. Game I've shot with Hornady Inter-lok bullets show massive amounts of hydrostatic shock, most have exited resulting in a bang flop. Only recovered one bullet from a raking shot, it was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of its original weight.

Marty, hello from interior AK. I've found with the Medium bores, they penetrate better when velocity is lower and the bullets be heavy for caliber. It's a life insurance policy for odd angles like quartering away. Light for caliber boat tails tumble occasionally and penetrate less than long, flat based bullets.

Accuracy would be the last of my concerns. I usually point at a single bullet type and powder. Reload it and sight it in.

Generally, medium bores aren't finnicky. Might have some fouling from all your different bullets, powders and testing.

I use a 375 bore snake through 338 bore to clear bad fouling. Using lots kg 2 bore polish. 20-30 passes. Confirm with bore scope. Might need more passes.

You have plenty of powder capacity for a 275 grain A-Frame. 1.4 inch long bullet. Break the front end out and you'll eat right up to the bullet hole. Clean kills:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101055835?pid=316680

It's your back, your knees your ankles. Packing meat over tussocks is hell on knees and back. This double lung bullsht is for guys handicapped by 3000 fps gopher bullets. It's a 338. Break bone.

I have had a Hornady 225gr interlock in a 338 mag. not penetrate a medium size mule deer broadside at 200yds... think Nosler partition, BarnesX etc.....

Im starting to see that... The thing is, I just started reloading last year. Ive been shooting that rifle in Alaska for 10+ years. 90% of that time its been with factory ammo in all varieties. Ive only droped (stone dead) two moose and a handful of caribou. Most animals run alot further than I would think. Now, 375 rum, 416 rug, 416 rem anyone?

More horsepower won't solve your problem.. hell it may make it worse.... again think bullets, use a better bullet

Get a good 45-70 and shoot 480 to 500 grain hardcast flatnosed bullets at 1350 fps and you will be happy. After one of those goes through and through from any angle and exits, they don't go very far.

250 accubonds, or 250 partition/A-frame would be my choice if I ever took my 338 after larger bears.

^^^^This^^^^^

Go to a Partition bullet or a tipped Bear Claw

Or a Swift A-Frame.

Matty99669, I know that many will argue with my response, but, I’m in full agreement with pabucktail. I had miserable experiences with the Sierra 300 SPBT’s in my .375 H&H. No matter what game animal I shot them with, the bullet totally fragmented. Yes, I got kills, but a 300 grain fired from .375 H&H should exit a deer or a sub 300 pound black bear. Granted this happened many years ago, and “supposedly” Sierra much improved the bullet.....but, fool me once! Sierra will never get the opportunity to fool me twice!

My wife and I have been using mono’s since the mid ‘90’s, with zero issues. If I were using the rifle for large and or dangerous game, a standard not lightweight mono would be the “only” bullet I would consider. There are other fine bullets available, Swift A-Frame, Nosler Partition, the Hammer mono’s, to name a few. memtb

If you shoot em on a beach in a kelp bed, or in a dry locale, ie; Idaho Montana Colorado Wyoming etc, it’s much easier, like everything else...

If I were hunting big bears with a 338, I’d reach for the 250 grain partition every time.

I would use a Swift A-Frame in 225gr or 250gr weight. Accuracy is second to tough bullet construction when hunting game that can hurt you.

"Accuracy is second to bullet construction"? We will have to agree to disagree...

How much accuracy do you need for a moose or brown bear at 100yds?

I shoot up to 600 yards for caribou. I wouldnt do it if I wasnt 1 moa at that distance.

You tried Partitions...right?? You said you tried 6 or 7. How did the Partitions group? Did you try different powders and charges to try to get them to group better?? Different seating depths? I can usually get any bullet I want to use to shoot good enough to hunt with by working with a few variables.

Was up the hill last night carving a curly maple stock in my buds gun shop. All you can do to stay sane in dark 30-40 below weather, is work on interesting guns. These guys put out rifles that sell between $75,000-$12,000.

I was handling three pre 64 model 70's that were all in various stages of the build with the most precise walnut stock inletting possible in the fine gun making trade. A 30-06, 300 h&h and a 458 win mag with drop box. None of them will group better than 2" from a rest at 100 yards. BUT, they will sell for 8-12 grand all day long.

Are you planning on shooting caribou at 600 yds with a 416 Rem?

Can you use a different bullet for shorter shots on bear versus possible longer shots on caribou? I would.

No

Accuracy is a distant second to bullet construction when talking dangerous game.

Shoot'm in the earhole....or the eyeball.

As you have indicated all shots are inside or at 150 yards. I believe the 338 Win Mag is at its best w/ 250 grain load just as the 375 H&H is with a 300 grain load. Using the A-Frame or Partition in the 338 Win Mag it has recorded kills on cape buffalo, big bears, moose and elk. Those bullets in that weight have always shown to be very effective on large game. I have used 250 grain Partition and Hawk bonded SP hand loaded at 2,650 fps on elk with great satisfaction.

Ok then, learn how to shoot , use a good bullet and quit whining on the internet..... if you can't do it with a 338 then you can't do it

Had a 200 grain interlock from a 338 federal stopped by a whitetail this fall. Shot was 220ish yards. Buck probably weighed around 175 pounds. Jacket separated from core. Bullet on offside hide.
I shoot a lot of Sierra Gamekings at deer. They are accurate, and some seem to be harder than others. I like to keep starting velocities under 3k. 27-2900 is usually the sweet spot.

What do folks think about the Speer .338 250 gr Grand Slam? Seems to get good reviews on MidwayUSA.

Speer Grand Slam .338 250 gr Bullets - MidwayUSA

I know that my wife’s rifle is sub-moa out to at least 300 yards with 225 TTSX’s.....around 2”, 3 shot groups on our 300 yard, backyard range! memtb

One review on Midway explains the Sierra. "Excellent for thin skinned to medium game".
There's the problem.

I'd trust a 185 grain Barnes way more than that 225

Yup

Of all the bullets I’ve tested, the only one to truly fail in my opinion is the .338 215 Sierra Gameking. Shot a couple with a 338-06 into magazines and none opened at all. .338 hole through a couple feet of magazines and far enough into ground I never found them.

Another thought in regards to the lost brown bear. A shoulder shot on a bear may not lead to chest cavity penetration, especially if the bear is quartering away, even slightly. Their anatomy is shaped differently than deer, more like a stocky human on all fours. With a soft bullet on a large bear, the second shot may not have achieved much penetration.

Seems to me I've heard someone on the forum opine "Bullets are more important than headstamps."

Hint

You are asking for MORE trouble.

I've read the whole thread. You have been given GOOD advice.
I have never recovered a Sierra bullet that had NOT separated. NEVER. I've used MANY test mediums.(media)

Good Luck in your search..... IF you are searching.


Jerry

They’re bears, shoot em, if they make it out of sight, go shoot another... hint

Umm no Jud, bears are game animals they deserve respect. I like having them around

I never whined nor am I a bad shot. I was asking opinions on bigger calibers hollywood.

Bigger caliber isn't what's needed, better and more robust bullets is.

That’s fine brother bri... I was raised where they are coyotes, I remember half cab scouts pullin up with right front paws for proof, = $, snares, and double bit axe for a killin weapon... nowadays they seem like a trophy...😂😂

I do like how (robust) is thrown around nowadays, especially scopes!! 😂😂

Hey Jud, why are bears considered a pest in W. Washington?

Both excellent bullets. Dial back accuracy if needed for bullet performance.

Not just here, but they girdle trees like a bastard... hence the hound hunt, feeding, and snare program approved every spring... most just lay em low and keep on keepin on..

You could club a bear to death with an SWFA or NightForce if you run out of boolits. A Leupold would just crumple up and piss him off. Just make sure the rings are Quick Detach and your pants aren't around your ankles or you in deep doo-doo ...

🤣🤣🤣

That's what I thought but wasn't sure. Didn't JJHack contract out killing bears for a timber co.?

Not sure I care about Wyerhausers interest over the bears interest......

I’m sure he did, known lotsa hired killers over the years, not in favor of Weyerhaeuser whatsoever, I do know there’s a lot around, they’re a predator so they get treated as such

You like bears huh Brian?

I do Jud, I like all animals. some taste better than others
Seriously though I have never lived where bears are considered varmints. They are game animals and I like having them around and even shoot one on occasion.
Now I dislike wolves , so I may have a little hypocrisy.....

.338 Winchester. Nosler. Barnes. Swift. 225-275grs. Accuracy will be found with any of those and stuff will die reliably.

Sierras are so buttery soft!

Ya I guess you could consider a bear a wolf or coyote around here....

My pet bear.....

don't think robust is thrown around when speaking of Leupolds

I should have read all replies before my comment above! This one's better.

I will say that back when I used Leupold scopes from several years ago the ones I used were tough and held zero just fine. I put them through hell the way I hunted and never had a problem with one.

One time I saw a Leupold video where they had a scope mounted to a device that slammed up and down thousands of times to check for robustness. I don't think they still test them that way now.

Jud, bears make the woods more interesting...... until they eat the plastic gas tank to your outboard in the Canadian wilderness... or break into your cabin and have a party.... like I said interesting..
Gotta love em..

If I see anyone using the word “hint” I’m going to think the worst of you.
There is your sign.

It scares me more when people love to eat em!!😂😂😂

Yep!!. Though a guide friend of mine had doubts about 210 NPT bullets, after watching the performance decided they were ok as well. Personally I prefer heavy for caliber bullets.

My wife is the daughter of an old houndsman that specialized in bears, it's her favorite game meat. Me.. not so much... bear sausage is ok

458Wing on here has some experience with Bears. Maybe you should get his opinion on that thought...

I would have to be pretty darn hungry to try bear meat.

That [bleep]'s for Steven Rinella.

Spring black bear is pretty good until the salmon run. Once they get on the fish im not interested. I actually had a roast last week. My wife did all the prep work so I will just say wasnt in a hurry to pack my lunch with it the next day.

Holy fu ck dude. You keep using the same bullet after multiple failures, now your asking about 416 rem, etc? This chit is never not funny. Ive never had an issue dropping any animal with the 338wm.

Its either a problem with the bullet, or where and how you place your shot. There is no problem with the 338wm. A 416 isnt going to fix your piss poor shooting habbits.

This chit is getting fu cking ridiculous. You alaskan fu cks need a website all your own. All of my pre 64's shoot consistent sub moa. Maybe i could sell them for more than "$75,000.00". Fu cking chit is hilarious..

Amen!!!

I'm pretty sure that was a typo, as in he meant to say $7,500-12,000

Still funny though.

Using Sierra Bt's on brown bears and then wondering why a bear ran off..........mmmmmmm...........

The fact is- both the bears I recovered last year were double lung shot. The blackie had one through the heart. Its just not a matter of shot placement, or expansion. the shots did what a .338 does. We just have some big pissed off bears full of adrenalin. Ive shot 8 brownies and countless black bears. Im not some dude shooting columbian blacktails. I dont like following them through the brush when they refuse to go down. I want more kenetic energy and knock it the [bleep] down. Im looking for a bigger rifle and asking opinions on calibers from guys that own and shoot them at dangerous game. Nuff said.

Smoking gun,

Was not a typo. Judd Brennan sold a flintlock rifle inlaid with precious metals and ivory, engraving that took over a year to finish. It sold for $75,000. If you pick up a few books or DVDs on American Kentucky rifles, you'll see pictures of the thing. His son does high end double rifles and bolt actions.

BSA,
All the barrels on those pre 64 model 70's are the originals. I'm unsure if you understood my intent. What I was alluding to, was that 2" accuracy from a fine vintage rifle is superb. Your's sound like real accurate shooters. Must be a thing of pride seeing that accuracy from an oldie.

Matty, if you want a measurable step up in power from the 338 Winchester magnum, I would recommend that you get the 416 Remington magnum. Sierra doesn't make any .416 caliber bullets, so I would probably load up some 350gr or 400gr Swift A-frames. That will definitely give you more stopping. Other bullets that I would consider would be the Barnes TSX, the Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and the Nosler Partition.

Finally! Thank you!

Jesus calm down buddy... you gone off the rails like really bad... you get ahold of some firewater or something?

OP,
Go here -
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/userposts/id/6930

Read through some of Phil’s posts over the last few years on this subject. Very few with more knowledge of big bears and bullet performance than he - Oregonians excepted, of course.

I don't doubt it at all. Sounds like a really nice rifle. I bought my first house in 2001 for $62,500 It was an old farmhouse fixer upper on 4.5 acres right up against the State Park with great deer hunting. Sometimes it's hard to wrap my mind around how collectable and expensive nice things can be.

So during your load work up what other bullets did you try?

Color me surprised, the guy says try 350gr or 400gr Swift aframes, or Barnes tsx.. You can do that with the 338 just run 250's.

Phil is the real deal. He killed a huge brown bear that he startled and was charging with a 9mm handgun! No BS at all.

If you want a bigger rifle then get one, and blame it on your other rifle being not big enough. Just don't expect everyone here to go along with it.

I'm all for having another reason to buy a new rifle. But try to use good bullet from the get go.. me I usually use a partition.. then followed by the poor man's partition the good ol hornady..

Sometimes indifference with a rifle is all in the mind, and that is ok.
I'd assume when Matty tracked through nasty brush, got swatted in the eye by an alder or had to pack meat or hide over exauhsting distance, he just plain didn't like the rifle afterwards.

When a guy or gal DRT's a pile of game with no fuss, you cling to the gun. It never gets sold. That ideal gun is different for everyone.

I read an outstanding article written by Tia Shoemaker. She had a jam in her 375 ruger during a bear charge. She claimed no fault of the gun, but rather, a flat point bullet loaded in the gun didn't feed right. She eventually gave up on the gun and went to a 416 rem mag built by darcy echols. Then hiked up in the mountains and took a sheep with it!

The new rifle bug is hard to shake......

In that case just skip the 375s and 416s, because CZ makes an affordable .505 Gibbs. The Gibbs can push a 600 gr Woodleigh PP at 2500+ fps.

If you want to put things in perspective: the Gibbs is to the little 416 Rigby, as the 308 is to the little 257 Roberts.

I absolutely agree with "accuracy being second..." and I can list a whole bunch of dead and recovered bears that would begrudgingly agree.

Please elucidate....

Bears are light boned and delicate compared to big herbivores so I am wondering where a bullet pointed in the right direction goes?

Okay, you asked a question hoping not for real insight, information or inspiration, but rather insight from someone equally clueless, guessing.

The 210gr TTSX in the 338WM is an incredible hammer.

Ah, somebody finally told him what he's been wanting to hear all along. The name of this thread should have been "Please tell me that I need a 416".

No matter the caliber/cartridge it's still shot placement and bullet performance.

79S, I agree, in an earlier post I suggested 225 gr or 250 gr Swift A-Frames, but the OP asked specifically for a larger caliber, so I suggested that a measurable increase over the 338 Win magnum would be a 416 Rem magnum.

Well I have zero experience with a 338 Winchester, I have shot a lot of Sierra 150s in a thirty-ought-six and I can tell you it is a very soft bullet.

I was going to rec the 225 TTSX and enough H-4350 to drive it 2900 fps, but seems the OP wants a big bore, that load from my old 338 was an ass stomper!

It's amazing at the number of men that seem to love being a jackass .

To the original post: a sampling of three (3) bears does not necessarily a conclusion make. Lots of people have alluded to proper bullets. Got to agree with that. Does the OP need a larger caliber? Can't say. Sounds like he shoots passably at game. Sometimes game does things we don't expect them to. Who knows, maybe the next one goes down on the spot and all will be right again. I'd start with a 250 NP loaded within its optimal velocity window for expected range and go from there.

I remember reading many articles in the 80s and 90s where people would ask gun-writers what bullet to use on brown bear. One of their choices was the Nosler BT. It was the most accurate so writer said to use that instead of a Partition or other tough bullet. This made no sense to me since I had trouble getting them (although in lighter calibers) to exit deer and antelope on broadside shots. Friends who use them on elk in bigger caliber said they lacked penetration their too at the time. The accuracy difference wasn't great either, something like 1/2 inch. But by God use the more accurate one. I have not used a Sierra on bears or in that caliber so take it for what little of what I say on the subject is worth, but again I found they lack penetration. They were very accurate though.

This was years ago before Nosler toughened the BT up.

Damned if I know why one would use bullets made for deer hunting on a brown bear hunt. What kinda closet you been living in? Seems like most people understand that while Sierra's are very accurate ,they sure come apart easy. No offense intended. MB

I know he wanted a larger caliber, but why not a 338 RUM, and some sort of ttsx, partition, a frame, etc ?

I've shot a train car load of big game with 338 WM and 225 gr Nosler Partitions it was the only gun I owned for 12 years....hunted all over North America with it....only remember a 1400 lb. moose and a bison that got a second shot but they were not really needed....

My uncle and his best friend there only rifles are Winchester 70 were shooting 225 gr. Nosler Partitions....

Now we all shoot Cutting Edge Bullets 200 gr. Raptor at 2850 fps.....just more internal damage than a Partition.....

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/338-200gr-esp-raptor

I've never killed bear, but I have owned many rifles in 338WM, RUM and 340Wby. The bigger ones were 375 H&H, 375 Wby, .404 Jeffery, 416 Taylor, 416 Remington , (shot a 416Wby, ouch, and Rigby, 458WM and Lott. Even rattled my teeth fillings with a hot loaded Marlin 45-70 430gr load! They were all accurate. Use what you have confidence in...and have a ball dude!

You don't need a bigger gun, you need to use a better bullet. Think NPt or TSX.

A 458WM with a soft bullet will net the same results as a 338WM with, well, a Sierra...........

I too had a 300 Sierra .375 make a mess of a medium sized cow elk. I'm too "spooked" to use them anymore, ha. But those big humped back bears have got to bite pretty dang hard...so be careful!

here is the answer you need to hear > you lost the bear for two reasons: poor shot placement and you used a poor bullet too. the 338 Win Mag is an excellent cartridge in the hands of a hunter on any bear ,but always use good bullets like Barnes, Nosler Partitions, or some others. sorry but sugar coating your shot placement mistake won`t bring that bear back,better luck next time. practice practice practice/ load better bullets in your bear hunting ammo,it might save your life. Pete53

Already been asked and not answered.

But he obviously wants to be done with the 338 Win Mag.

I'm currently using a 9.3x62 almost exclusively and think that would be a nifty bear hammer. Then, I only 286 NPs. No need for anything else.

first time i saw this i thought it said “lost a beer” ... that would indeed be a tragedy. bear, not as big a deal. keep on rockin

Good choice! I can tell you the 9.3 with that bullet wrecks big brown bears as well as any .375

Matty,
Just curious but what sort of accuracy are you getting with the Sierra bullets and what are your expectations?

Answer is simple, 250g partitions in the existing 338, AND buy a 416, shoot some bears with both. Report back to us this time next year!

I have read the whole thread, and honestly do not even know where to start.

My first thought:
1. Are you trolling?
2. Who has trouble killing bears with a 338 Win Mag?
3. Who has trouble getting a Tikka to shoot?

My first suggestion to you, is to not get a bigger cartridge as you are obviously having trouble with the current one. But if you want to go bigger, a 416 Ruger, Ruger, or Rigby would be a big step up. If you have failures with that diameter, move up to 458. If you can not handle those two, then you should drop down to a 375 H&H, or Ruger. If you are still having problems, you need to adjust the nut pulling the trigger.

If you are willing to give your 338 another try.

Pick a premium bullet. Monolithic, NPT, SAF, or bonded. Whatever YOU have confidence in, and can get to shoot satisfactorily. A 185gr mono through 275gr SAF will work.

Study the heck out of bear anatomy and shoot to break them down. Because no matter what cartridge you shoot, a double lung hit typically results in a critter running off a ways. If it keeps running, then you have less than ideal shot placement or bullet failure.

If you want more “thump” plus range get a 375 either H&H or Ruger. The bigger 375’s are very difficult to shoot well especially in a rifle of reasonable weight. For a long time I thought a 416 was much more effective but one of the 375’s is more than enough plus it has much more range, provided you use the Barnes 270 TSX.

I have used that combo to kill 5 Cape buffalo with a single shot on each. When using Partitions or AFrames the results were much less decisive. Bullets matter more than bore size.

I used a 338 Win enough to decide it wasn’t any more effective than a big 30. Actually I believe a 30/06 loaded with 168 TTSX bullets would consistently out perform your 338/Sierra load.

Again, the 375 Ultra, and all of the 416’s you mentioned are unmanageable in the kind of rifle you want to carry in brown bear country.

No need for a larger cartridge or cal. If you shoot out to 600y and still want a 'sturdy' bullet just get 185ttsx, 210ttsx, 225ttsx or 225 accubonds. However, some of the 'quickest' body shot deaths I have seen with my 338 were Hornady SSTs and bergers. They break up but I think with good speed and enough penetration they cause a lot of 'shock' leading to quick deaths. Nway, changed the rifle to a 300wsm and could not be happier.

Haven't heard from OP in a bit.

That's normal in these "my mind is made up so just tell me what I want to hear" threads.

Sierra bullets are way too soft, and I gave up on them for anything bigger than a groundhog or paper.

I don't understand why they don't make a premium bonded version.

Anyway, I killed my 8.5ft mountain grizz with 200 accubonds out of a 300rum.

They penetrated 3ft of grizz....1/4 away shots and we're found perfectly mushroomed under the hide behind the shoulder and chest.

He rolled down a ridge and died.

No way a 338 isn't enough gun for big bears.

It's the pos Sierra's you are using

Try the 338 accubond, problem solved

You didn't lose a bear because of the .338 Cartridge, you lost it because of the inadequately constructed bullet for the task you gave it.

Nosler and Swift make Partition bullets with the Swift bonded at the front and the Barnes X bullets are ideal from 225gn to 265 grains some in TSX and others in TTSX design, but all, any bear adequate.
Change your bullet and lose the problem forever.

A Sierra bullet would be about the last bullet I would use for bear. Deer and elk, yes.

Noslers and TSX’S or even Hornandy’s.

I like where your heads at! TTSX, Partition, Swift, etc in the 338 and probably the same mixture. Never taken a grizz, but enough elk with the 250 Partition to know it isn't easy to stop. Good luck with whatever you decide.

This^^............

A larger caliber is not the answer, IMO. But won't hurt if you can handle it. And if you want another rifle. But it still comes back to the bullet/load.

Tho I have not tried them myself, I've heard nothing but good about the TTSX performance - tho I don't recall anything about recovery distances. I use plain jane 225 and 250 in my .338, favoring the 250. No complaints. Critters shot with either have never gone far, if at all.

I don't hunt the big bears, and only take blacks for meat once in awhile as opportunity offers. .243, .270, 30-30, and .30-06 have proven adequate - bang flops all, in fact.

Let me offer a little more here.....
If you down load that 224gn Sierra to around 2550fps using 64gn of VARGET or around 2650fps using 67gn of H 4350, both with magnum primers you will not stress the bullet as much making it more suitable for deer hunting. That was you can use up your stock and get some value from it.

With the often recommended 250gn Nosler Partition, 69gn of IMR 4350 or 70gn of H 4350 will get you around 2680fps and I found the IMR version slightly more accurate in my rifle, though I would recommend the Hodgdon version for an Alaskan hunt if temperatures require heavy clothing.

My favorite post of the thread.

So far...

I used to shoot the 225g hornady interbond in my 338s. Not a very common choice but a good one. Opened fast to a nice wide mushroom but held together as it smashed stuff. BC ran higher than what it was rated too.

Bb

You need a tougher bullet and to change your shot placement.

You're shooting a relatively soft bullet at high velocities into the lungs. I'm going to hazard a guess that those bullets absolutely wrecked the lungs on the way through. However, you aren't going to generate "knockdown" with lung shots. You will drop an animal either by CNS hit, i.e. the proverbial light switch, or hitting a limb and disabling the mechanical support from the skeleton. A tougher bullet is better for these type of shots.

If you up your kinetic energy but double lung you're just wasting that extra energy.

The .338 was made for Alaska, and killing Bears. Your choice of bullet is the problem. I’ve shot 3 Grizzlies and when I go after an animal like that, I want the best bullets on the market. Accuracy isn’t the first consideration. The last Bear I shot was a B&C Grizzly. 210 grain Nosler Partition at 2916 FPS. 1 shot, dead bear. Choose a Premium bullet. If you can afford to hunt the big bears, you better be able to afford good bullets. Seems simple to me. If that’s not clear, you shouldn’t be hunting them. One of them may decide to come your way.

Truth

There is no way that bear was double lunged.
1. less than optimum shot placement
2. bullet failure
3. combination of both

I haven't read the entire thread but I agree the problem was identified early on as inadequate bullets. I use my .338 WM for moose and from the beginning hunted with 225 gr. Partitions. For practice I use 225 gr. Hornadys. On my very first hunt with this rifle I shot a moose at short range and at a single shot he went down so hard that two of us had trouble breaking one of his antler tines free of the ground. With the proper bullets this caliber is an absolute hammer IMO.

Jim

I've never shot a bear...let alone a big bear.


But, I used to hunt with a small group. The core group of us got things done. Weekends and such would bring out guys that had troubles killing deer. I've always been the group tracker. Archery or gun..if someone had a track job, my phone rang.


The ONLY time I have every found bone chunks in the blood trail has been leg hits.


And yes....one of those guys dinged a black bear one day...I wasn't with them...but they said the same thing. Bone chunks and a great blood trail for like 2 miles before another hunter put it down. Leg hit.


The OPs bear was NOT hit twice in the chest. Nothing takes 2 338mag hits to the chest and goes 4.5 miles. I'd venture to guess the first was in the leg... possibly the bullet blew apart on the shoulder and left a gaping hole with bone fragments. 2nd shot...who knows. 150+yds running...most guys would be lucky to hit it let alone send a perfect quartering away shot exactly where they wanted it to go...



I'd agree....a bigger gun won't help. Better bullets and shot placement absolutely will.


There are a number of fantastic bullets on the market. And as a handloader, there is no reason to shoot a bullet not built for the task at hand. I'm in Pennsylvania shooting little old whitetails and black bear...I load premium bullets because I don't want a failure. Millions of critters are killed every year with cup n core soft bullets...I know that. But again, back to hunting with a group of guys....I've seen various bullets perform. Various calibers and cartridges...various hits. I've noted that with many soft cup n core bullets that performance isnt consistent. Sometimes they seem to pencil through and not do much. Others they perform perfectly. Others they are like grenades.


I shot Sierra's one season. Broadside buck at 30yds. 165gr 3006 load. Shot in the ribs right behind the shoulder. I found it incredible to find the guts blown up as well as the chest. I found it more interesting to find a mangled jacket in the hind quarter. Ya...it killed him. But whew. That was a wild bullet performance. I saw enough.

YES!

Hopefully the OP is still reading and learning with an open mind.

You're better than me. I think he's closed-minded to better bullets and just wants a bigger caliber to take care of his problem.

too much of Elmer keith can do that to some minds.

re; .338, didnt Barnes Co. recommend 185x as sufficent for BBs?

OP could also reverse his thinking - trade .338 for a humble .30-06 200 AF and witness a miracle ..

Yep!

A 338 recoils significantly more than a 300win mag. I like the 338 caliber but it sits in favour of a 300wm or 30-06. They do the job with much less fuss. I’m a bit of a delicate flower and 338 just isn’t pleasant to practice with. Lol

The 225 Sierra is actually one of the hardest sierras I know of. Thick jacket and hard lead core. I think they may be poking smallish holes through the lungs. Not what you normally expect from sierras. I've shot them through rock chucks from full house 338 lapua loads and it looked like FMJs. The 225 hornady or partition in the same load sent chucks into orbit.

When I had several 338s I either shot the 225 interbond or the 210 partition. Hard to beat the partition for fast acting expansion with penetration. Shooters pro shop sometimes has seconds for not much more than sierras. Nosler seconds are as good as firsts for hunting. I've had poor accuracy or other issues with hornady seconds from midway but SPS noslers are good to go.

Bb

I remember reading years ago that Chub what’s his name said that the 210 Nosler was the best bullet Nosler ever made. I had 250’s and 225’s loaded up for my Bear hunts, but the 210’s had worked so well, and consistently on everything else I decided to roll with them. Bang, a few seconds of oh chit! And then flop.

That oh chit part will get your attention for sure! Makes you realize that first shot better be perfect.

I had 338WM back in 1997, used it on a couple elk, a few deer and an antelope. I did not like the recoil at all. I would much rather shoot my 300 H&H or 338-06. Even my 375 H&H is better than that 338WM I had.

Son and I are taking 338-06's to SE Alaska this spring for Black Bear. Premium bullets and shooting for the front shoulder structure will be priority. I have not settled on specific loads, but 185gr GMX or TTSX, 210gr T/TSX or Partition will be on the list to try.

A 185 at 2900 or 210's at 2800 will certainly do the job.

Lots of expert bear advice here. The bear I lost was 150 yards away. I was on the south shore if Tustemena lake about a mile east of Nicholai creek. Anybody whos been there can tell you the bluffs are almost vertical. My first shot was slightly into the bone on his right shoulder. It was a very obvious hit and we could clearly see it. The second was while he was trying to claw his way up the bluff at 2mph also a clearly seen impact. After that he was in the alders. The blood trail was marked at almost waist high on brush and grass. Neither were leg shots. Its possible the second shot never made it into lungs/heart. It was 6-10" further rear than I would have liked. This is the first bear I have ever lost. Im at a loss for while Im catching so much crap over bullet choice. Right on sierras website for this bullet its recommended for Alaskan brown bear. Ive shot two moose with this same load. No problems. Also, I believe I did mention this is my second season reloading. Im certainly no expert. I put my time in at the range and in the backyard. My accuracy and dedication cant be questioned.

If you're determined that the 338 was the problem, I much prefer my 416 Ruger Alaskan to the 338 I had. I've never used the 416 on anything but blowing up water jugs for the kids, but the 300 gr. TSXs make short work of them. The accuracy at the range is impressive, and the recoil is very manageable

That first bullet did not double lung that bear. You can chalk it up to bullet failure or shot placement. Take your pick. It is not the cartridge that caused the issue.

Did the bullet deflect off the bone? catch one lung? I do not know. Sometimes weird stuff happens.

I may not be a bear expect but have certainly seen enough critters put in the dirt to know that most rodeos are caused by shot placement issues.

Anytime someone says their accuracy can't be questioned I'd immediately question their accuracy. It sounds to me reading some of the posts that your ego is wrapped up in this. My suggestion would be to leave the ego behind. No one is perfect. And people are giving you feedback on your bullet choice based on their personal experiences. Just because a manufacturer puts a picture of an animal beside a bullet doesn't mean that bullet is a great choice.

Beat me to that comment, Tann. Hope the OP can check himself and learn a little bit.

As to 375 and 416's, I can only speak with limited experiences on moose. The specific cartridges are 375 and 416 Rugers with 20" barrels using 270 TSX and 350 TSX respectively.

One with the 375, about 25 yards, was a head shot that traveled through a lot of vertebrae bone, dropped at the shot. The other was about 175 yds, depending on where spruce tree was lazered. First shot behind the shoulder, lower mid-third of chest, very slight angle, shooting from a hillside about 10-15' above moose elevation. Shooting through a 1/2 a moose sized opening, 2nd and 3rd shots were through tall grass and other foliage, one was flank to chest, the other I am not sure other than a gash on mid-ham. Distance of travel guess, 3 to 3.5 moose lengths. He basically traveled around the spruce he was beside, and between it and another spruce that the limbs nearly intertwined.

The 416, 78-80 yds, frontal and slightly quartering through the chest, forkhorn looked as though he was going to sit down on his azz, trembled and tipped over to the side just before hams contacted the ground.

338, 225 TSX, about 150 yds, nearly perfect broadside, slightly downhill, tight behind the shoulder, lower 1/3 of chest, exit through a rib and scapula. Dropped so fast, that I did not see it during the recoil.

I luv the bigger medium bores, the 375's and 416's. My shooting distances are 200 and under. But, my 338 Winchester is likely my favorite all around rifle. Hell, may be my favorite rifle period.

One additional 375 Ruger, 270 TSX, I did not pull the trigger and did not see the impact. But, I was near enough to hear the moose fall like a ton of bricks. Slightly downhill, nearly broadside, behind to shoulder, through the heart, and totally busted the shoulder upon exit, distance about 60 yds. I did not see it but I heard him when he hit the ground Very shortly after the shot.

Somewhat related. This year I shot a Whtetail Buck with my 50cal Custom Hawken using 350gr Maxi Hunters. Range was about 100 yrds. Shot felt perfect and he ran off carrying the off side shoulder. Found very little blood and jumped him up after about 100 yrds tracking in the dark. My son was filming it. So we went home to watch the footage. He was clearly hit a little to far forward. I went back in the morning and found him after 4 hrs of searching. I would have sworn I made a better shot than that. If you Don't find them or have it on film. You can't blame the bullet. You can watch it on matt3006 you tube channel.

Never said I was perfect. I did say that two of us watched the impact from both bullets and they looked pretty good.

You sure have danced around what other bullets you tried in that .338 win mag....

Matty99669, You’ve been given a lot of good information as well as a little bit of crap about your choices. Just because Sierra says they’re “Bear Bullets” ....don’t make it so. You heard numerous examples of Sierra failures on large, heavy boned, thick skinned, heavily muscled animals....as well as stories of failures on small, relatively delicate big game animals. Most of are “not” trying to lead you wrong....just give you good info.

The .338 WM is well respected as a good bear cartridge in most arenas of thought. A bullet of proper construction, properly placed will take any Alaskan bear. It may not be the best “stopping cartridge”.....but that’s a different topic. memtb

Interesting thread. Did you kill the second bear on the same tag you shot the first one?

Maybe if he got Alaskan bear hunting tips from Ted Nugent.

The 338 Win with 250-300 solids could skull kill a bull elephant. Just like golf, not the club but user of the club.

Only applies to your part of Alaska.. not up here. Anyhow from the regs..

A person who has wounded game should make every legal effort to retrieve and sal- vage that game. Animals disturbed while hunting do not count against your bag limit; however, bears wounded in Units 1-5, and 8, and elk wounded in Unit 8 do count toward your bag limit for the regulatory year.

Crickets from Matty....

I found a great shooting load in my 375 H&H using 270gr hot-cor. Then I read muledeers thoughts on that particular bullet, he was not impressed, pretty sure he said he wouldn’t use that bullet for anything due to it just blowing up. But I’m sure Speer says otherwise.. Anyhow, I shot 300gr TSX out of my 375 and they shoot great and that’s the bullet I will use if I ever draw a Kodiak bear tag. But if all I had was a 338 I would be doing everything I could to get a 250gr tsx to shoot.

Haha, that's a loaded question....

Followed by a partition either 225 or 250.. then accubonds in the same weight

You should try what I used for black bear in my 338. I shoot the 225 gr swift A frame over RL19/ CCI 250. My bear wasn't much of test since it weighed 200 lbs or so.
The load was straight out of swift's manual. That load will easily shoot MOA. If it doesn't, then there's something wrong with the rifle, scope, or shooter. Good luck

I've never hunted AK brown bear and probably never will. But I gotta know - how many guys pile them up with bores 7mm or smaller?

Tyrone, I’m sure there’s been a few. But, my logic contends that if someone is dropping $15 to $20K on a guided “Brown” hunt, they will likely carry a little larger cartridge/caliber. I certainly know that I would prefer to kill the bear......rather than have the guide kill “my” bear! memtb

I’d be curious to hear what we’re the bullets that were tried during testing, and why were they discarded?

IMHO some guys get too focused on range accuracy in a hunting rifle/bullet choice.

If I had a rifle that would shoot “soft” bullets into consistent 0.5 MOA groups, but would shoot a tough, proven bullet into consistent 1.25 MOA groups, I know high one of be using on bear. “Sub MOA” isn’t the holy grail some folks think it is.,,,

I wouldn’t use a 7mm, I’m sure you could do it. I wouldn’t hesitate to use a 30-06. Especially with today’s bullets. Like all things regarding hunting, bullet placement is paramount. Things get dicey when holes are poked into animals that can and will kill you, that are not immediately terminal. The last bear I shot, with an excellent bullet placement that proved fatal for him, still covered about 60 yards straight towards me faster than you can imagine. Fortunately he died before he arrived at my location. Big Bears require serious attention to proper bullet placement. It’s really that simple.

And using bullets up to the task.

30-06 really more powerful than a 7mm mag?

Plenty of bears (the majority I believe) up here are killed by residents (like the op); many with medium bores and appropriate bullets.

I didn’t think about the resident aspect, which changes things considerably. Not knowing how many Brown Bears a resident can take in a lifetime, but assuming it’s more than one, the resident can take a few more risks than a non-resident...... that may have saved much of his life for this “once in a lifetime” hunt! memtb

Good info. Like I've said- I fairly new to reloading. I read about the bullets Im using (generally from manufacturers websites). I understand that .338wm is a well respected round for Alaska. About 70% of the guys I'm around hunt them. The question is why not use a bigger round if I can handle it? Bigger bore, more weight, more energy. What is the downside? Safer and a more humane kill. I will check into different bullets and loads combinations but not for coastal brown bears.

Not dancing around it. Just didnt feel like walking out to my shop at -15 to check. Im here now though. Hornady 225gr sst, berger 250 geh (second best accuracy out of those), nosler 225gr spitzer, barnes tsx 185 gr (for a caribou hunt but couldnt get the groups tighter than 10" at 300 yards), speer grandslam 250gr, and hornady 250gr interlock. Powders ive used in .338 are h4831sc, imr 4350, and h380.

Because it’s not needed. The 338 Win Mag is about the perfect Bear cartridge. If you can’t do it with that round, then you need to reconsider why your hunting. Bigger gun, more recoil, will lead to less accuracy. Which means more Bears running around with holes in them. And now there pissed.

No, but you can run heavier bullets and make bigger holes. You don’t need speed. You need penetration and good bullets.

Interesting you suggested this guy run a 30-06 rather than a 7mm mag for "heavier bullets and make bigger holes". Exactly the reason I want a bigger rifle. Im glad you came to your senses...

Didn't know Sierra made a 225 .338 bullet...

They make a 215 SBT, 225 pro hunter and 250 SBT plus 2 Matchkings.

Thanks.

Didn't know they came out with a 225.

He said sbt, so I was a bit confused!

Matty99669, Don’t give up yet on your .338 WM. We’re big fans of the Barnes Bullets. I ( just my opinion) think you are doing yourself an injustice by only trying the 185’s. If you are thinking long range shooting (caribou), I think that you may be better served with a heavier, higher BC bullet. We’re running 225 TTSX’s in my wife’s .338 WM @ 2950 (yes we’re pushing them pretty hard) and getting 2 to 2 1/2” three shoot groups @ 300 yards, from a “box stock” Win. Model 70.
I think these (provided you can make them group) will be a great bullet for your application. The heavier, higher BC bullets will give great penetration on the big animals, yet perform quite well at extended ranges. If you compare these to the 185’s I believe you’ll see higher energy, as flat or flatter trajectories at longer ranges, less wind drift, and because of the greater weight.....much better penetration on the big stuff. With quite a few elk, 1 bear, and 1 moose, all one shot kills.....we’ve yet to recover a bullet. I didn’t mention the deer and antelope.......they were pass through as well!

Good Luck, I hope you find something that works for you. memtb

First things first ditch the h4831, imr 4350 and h 380... go buy some h4350, fed 250 primers.. second go over to this website http://www.shootersproshop.com/loading-reloading-bullets.html order some 250 partitions, 250 accubonds and while you are at it order some 250/252 gr e-tips.. If you can't find h4350 try to find some RL19, but h4350 is the definite standard for the 338 win mag.

Interesting. There was an old timer at the range last year who was really pushing h4831sc because he said it wasnt as temperature sensitive. He said it is excelent for real cold weather. I have a buddy who keeps telling me to try RL19 also.

Try 67.0-67.5gr h4350.. but if you are still wanting another rifle find a 375 Ruger and shoot 270gr tsx or 300gr tsx out of it..

Matty99669, A couple of things pertaining to handloading for you .338 WM. We use a slower burning powder than is normally recommended by many load manuals and other handloaders, which will necessitate a compressed load. Compressed loads are just a “fact of life” for us. We’re running RL 22 in the wife’s .338WM, which many feel is not temperature stable....though we’ve not had issues. I would suggest that you attempt to find a powder of similar burn rate as the RL 22 , but regarded as “temperature stable”!

Also, going back to my post mentioning the Barnes 225 TTSX. This bullet would serve you well on Sitka deer to the biggest Browns, and would be good on your caribou from muzzle to excess of 500 yards. That’s versatility! We use one bullet, one load, one zero for all of our big game hunting.....it just makes things simple! memtb

Matty, you have received some good solid advice here and the only things I have to offer is that with most premium bullets ( TSX, Partitions, Swift, Northfork, Interbonds , etc) the 338 is about as good a bear rifle as you can buy.

I was stationed with a guy in Montana in the early 70's that couldn't kill an elk with his 7mm Rem Mag. He gave up on it as no good and got himself a 458 Win Mag. Nothing changed except the size and weight of the bullet and the recoil. He still couldn't kill them. Some time's you need to look beyond the rifle!

Thank goodness true experience has spoken. This thread could have ended pages ago and been fine with Phil's wisdom.

I was the bear control wildlife manager for the WFPA and Weyerhaeuser for over a decade based in the Snoqualmie Wa. region. However I travelled to where issues came up.

A consideration for folks that may be unaware. These areas were tree farms, not parks or wilderness areas. They were farms just like corn, or potatoes, onions, whatever. Its confusing because the crop looks like a park not a vegetable. Bears in this habitat struggle with the rain volume during the early spring warm up. This begins flooding dens and areas they would normally still be sleeping in late march or April. Bear in this habitat are a bit migratory. Not horizontally as most migration is seen but vertically due to temperature and snow pack. They get flooded out and go straight down in elevation to find something to eat. Not much available this early. The trees however have been sucking up water for a month now and that cambium layer is thick soft and functional as food. Unfortunately for the tens of thousands of trees the farm planted,.... every one of them is the same exact age. Unlike a natural forest with trees of every age. So when a bear gets into a 10-12" DBH forest ( Diameter Breast height) these are ripe for the peeling. One bear peeling 20-30 trees a day for nutrition might squeak by. Thats 900 trees a month. Now lets say its 8-12 bears in the same tree farm area. That is pushing 10,000 trees a month for one spring season. This 10-12" DBH size last 2-3 years. (springs) now what have we got? 30-50 thousand dead trees in a few square miles. This was a 55 year investment by the lumber company. Consider they also did commercial thinning at 8-10 years and this entire acreage is now a total loss.

Put this into perspective. If a farmer was losing this much of his crop he is bankrupt, now if he lost this much after a 12 -15 year long investment like an orchardist, that is well beyond bankrupt when you also consider the financial investment and taxes, fire prevention spraying fertilizer and the massive cost of road building and removal the countless appliances, tires rubbih and cars abandoned and dumped.

The bears in Aberdeen Wa. area were taken out in large numbers. I don't recall there being a reduction year over year. For 20 years hundreds were removed and then they replenished and we had the same amount the next year over and over. They were rather small on average usually 150lbs or so. Once in a while we took a big one out that was 300. In the cascades is was different. Sizes were much bigger. Average 225, plenty 300-400 and with a few that would push 500. One at 509 actually!

Skulls were small, not a single 21" skull in many hundreds of bears removed. Quite a lot in the 19" range but mostly 17-18.5" was about the biggest you could hope for. Many of my client hunters looked at me as a rather lucky guy with this job. They seemed to have a fun level of jealousy joking about it and that I had this job. It actually seemed cool to be viewed in this light as a professional bear hunter. However as with many things that you start out enjoying as exciting and fun. It became a bit of a stress to me over time. When I filled out log books and filed the info with F&G the WFPA and Weyerhaeuser it became grotesque. I was killing bears at a volume that was embarrassing and emotionally difficult for me to deal with at times. Make no mistake, I was very experienced at this by now. Nobody was better at finding and killing bears than I was. On the surface that sounds boastful. However in my heart it was not at all. Sure I could state numbers that nobody would believe and instantly lose my credibility in a conversation as fantasy or boastful, even "liar". That really hurt me. Not only was I already feeling this in my heart but other sportsman and the environmentally challenged people would say it to me, or with the advent of this internet forum format write the most hateful things about me. Either,.... That there was no way I was doing this at the volumes stated, or that I actually was doing it and I should be struck by lightening for that!

Either way, it was a no win for me in this field. So another fella ( Ralph for those that knew him) and I took it upon ourselves to try a program that would feed bears an alternate food source for the first month of spring. It was a booming success that went from a few tons of Land O Lakes Bear feed we developed with Wa. F&G biologists. That wa had manufactured in Oregon, to over 90,000 lbs the last year of the program. There was no middle ground with this. Either we killed bears as fast as we could or we fed them to the point the cub population had no more natural mortality, (too big a topic to cover here). This grew a population of bears nobody could have imagined. I was killing problem bears that had been on a feeding station that would be less than 8 years old an over 450-500 lbs. Nearly unheard of in nature, at least in the PNW. Food volume was increasing every year by 10-20% that cost was unmanageable and tree damage was starting back up where food was unavailable. We now had both problems.

So if you folks can open your minds to the challenges of a FARM not a forest and realize that this was not a boastful hero status event for me, but rather an exciting thing for a 30 year old guy to be offered at the time. I do understand the farm challenge and the business model, as well as the difficult ugly situation and the public view. It was a very difficult almost bipolar experience as the guy actually doing this work!

Yeah I know what kills bears, I know how they live, how to find them, I lived this life for a good portion of my adulthood. It is not something people would believe me about the stories, or if they do they condemn me for it. It was a job, it ended with investor challenges and property reallocation. There are some pockets of this going on in both USA and Canada. I still get calls to discuss solutions and options they have. I've not killed a bear in a damage control program for a long time. My last was a predatory bear on calves not trees. Its a huge topic with one of the most diverse animals in the world. Think about this one issue and there are many more. Its named after a colour, yet they are in more colours than any wild animal I can think of. Thanks for the time here to explain this better.

Pretty cool Jim, thanks for sharing

I have Ralph Flowers book so I understand the deal.

I have Ralph Flowers' book Education of a Bear Hunter. Good read, and like you said, lots and lots of dead bears.

I referenced Ralph in my post. He and I had a long successful and hard working time together. He mentored me in many ways during this period. Together he and I developed the supplemental bear feeding program. We both had the same feelings about the amount of bears killed and to try something different. Our partnered success was so much better than anticipated the problem got bigger with such a healthy plentiful new food source.

Big males monopolized the feed stations, and the other bears peeled trees all around them. The big bears stopped chasing down cubs to eat,... and just sat fat and happy on an endless food supply. All the cubs grew up knowing only that peeling trees was normal. It was proven to be a learned behaviour. Moving bears from the tree-farm with a live trap to remote areas or different locations caused tree peeling to begin in locations it was unheard of prior. That ended the option to move them.

Moving bears over 100 miles with collars and ear tags often had them back to the exact spot they were caught in a month so. Those we referred to as " double dippers" were removed for good at the next opportunity. The WFPA had me write an educational reference book called "Solving Washingtons bear problems" I have a single copy remaining. They owned the rights it was their book. I just authored it for them. It was while I was developing comments in that book that the realization of how many bears we took out began to impact me. Much of the book was based on the new feeding program.

WDFG was instrumental to help us develop that feed. We caught bears and drew blood the Vet would analyze it and our various recipes were used to match the blood draw of wild bears to be sure they had the right mix of nutrition and it was good enough to have them eat it. Originally the feed was refrigerated and would spoil if is was not eaten soon. It was also a soft pellet that would be damaged in a pickup bouncing on bad roads. That was about every road I used!

After a few years purina and our original land o lakes business created a harder non perishable pellet that we could use with equal success. However the development of the bigger feed stations was needed. I experimented with so many designs all of which the bears destroyed or cost so much to build that we could not afford them. Eventually I built a 55 gallon size drum with some tricky angles and baffle measurements and some interesting welding requirements.

They were easy to mass produce once the templates were made and we had about 100 of them built. I was running 60 of them myself the other two guys shared responsibility for 30 with 10 as spares. The bears still managed to destroy these once in a while too. This has been a good reflection for me actually. Part of this period of my life was at the time the highpoint of my life at 28-30 years old. The best was yet to come for me, but this was a formative part of my future!

I do feel that it better balanced my communication skills with anti hunters. I learned empathy for the first time in my life doing this. Maybe just a natural development of maturity too. I was on the cover of the Seattle Times News Paper with a reporter filling a station with feed. They had me doing all the media driven requirements. I was on at the time the biggest radio show in the the region. Bob Rivers and Spike Oneal had me on to share the program results and vision. Not exactly celebrity level stuff but for a kid growing up in the farm country feeding his family hunting with traps and a sheridan air rfile it was a big deal for me!

Moving to South Africa was like going to Hollywood for a young actor after that! Wow ..... That was where everything exploded for my hunting and wildlife management business future!

Finally some rational info. I’ve killed and been on many kills of bear, moose and caribou with a 338wm. If your shooting a 338 for what it’s inherently good at , skip the Hornady and Sierra’s and shoot well constructed bullets! It’s not like your gonna go plinking with a 338Wm (if you know what’s good for you) so cost isn’t even an excuse.