I sent JES a Ruger Hawkeye SS in 30-06 to be bored out to 9.3 caliber.

Here are some images of the work that was done.

Not sure what to think? Your thoughts?

https://imgur.com/cUzIc0h

https://imgur.com/l6PIhgQ

The 'pot holes' imaged are all up the bore of the rifle.

I have not looked at too many bore scope images, and am not a machinist/metallurgist, but that does not look so great. The first picture seems to be an inclusion in the metal that was surfaced in the machining. The two spots in the second photo are more troubling to me because it looks like the barrel material smeared and distorted during machining, rather than cut cleanly. (On closer inspection of the second photo, there may be an inclusion in the lower of the two smears.)

I am not at all surprised by the inclusion. I don't think that OEM barrels use the highest cost steel, so some inclusions are probably to be expected. I look forward to hearing what more knowledgeable people say about the "smears".

I'd wait to see how it shoots. Sometimes its just better not to know.

I have had great results of accuracy from JES rebores, but I have also had the same rifles pull copper and foul like crazy as well for quite a few rounds. I am honest with myself by saying I spent about a 1/3 or less of what it would have cost to rebarrel with a Krieger and have a smith chamber and fit.

What my process has been is to shoot the barrels from the get go, about 5 rounds at a pop, JB bore paste the crap right out of the barrel, getting it back to steel and shooting the next 5, and so on. I usually get about 30-35 rounds through it doing that method and see a significant lessening of copper fouling. At that point, I will DBC the bore and live with the imperfections I am sure the barrel has, but typically I have gotten great accuracy from his rebores. I have ran Tubbs Final Finish bullets through them as well which helped a touch, but it does legthen the throat some as well.

Those are interesting pictures though, thank you for posting them up.

I am not qualified to comment intelligently, but I have given up on condemning barrels on appearance. Make him aware of what you found. But if I were in your shoes, I'd lap and /or fire lap and just shoot the darn thing. I am convinced that barrels are like women, just 'cause they look nice, doesn't mean they work well. Even without bore scopes, we all have rifles that shouldn't shoot..using bore condition as a judging criteria. I have a well traveled 9.3 mfd in 1928 with a freckled bore that puts 8 shots into 1 1/4 inches with 58 gr Varget and the Hornady 286 gr.

I had initially cleaned the bore with Montana Copper Killer then did the Dyna-Tek thing. Shot it 8 x then while cleaning bore again I took these pics. Lot of effort to clean this bore, more than normal, but that was somewhat expected.

Don't want to judge the work till I really put some holes on paper.

See how it shoots, blah blah blah. Yep, see how it shoots but I would not want my barrel coming back with that damage. It may be hell on a bullet jacket. Contact JES and see if they want to do something. I wouldn't lap it before speaking with them.

I am not an expert by any means but do have machining experiences.Those are more than just tool marks . I would at least send him the photos and ask about them. It will probably shoot OK, but I think it is going to foul quicker and they for sure won't polish out

Looks to me like clean machine work with flaws in the steel. Shouldn’t affect shooting, IMO.

See what he says and report back.

DF

My thoughts as well.

Does a .30-06 bored to 9.3mm give you a rifle capable of safely chambering and firing 9.3x62mm Ammo or is it a wildcat?

Interesting pics. That’s why I don’t have a borescope; ignorance is bliss!

Absolute.

Looks like voids in the barrel metal.

My thoughts exactly.

Looks like his cutting tool encountered some sort of inclusion present in the original steel barrel blank. If that’s the case, then entirely to blame on the original barrel.

The Hawkeye had CHF barrels so if direct something in the machining did that.
What do they say?

And shouldn't affect anything.

I have a 1910 vintage Win 1892 in 38-40 with shiny bore, but pitted. It out shoots my new Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy, shoots tighter groups.

The pits don't affect anything. JES machine work looks very good. Those small inclusions in the original steel are just there and unavoidable when you cut into them.

I have a Hawkeye, but it's just a tool, not meant to rule. The final exam is at the range.

I feel sure that's what JES is gonna tell you. Load some rounds and give us a performance report. I have a feeling you're gonna be pleased.

DF

How would the fact the original barrel was hammer forged affect the quality of the steel itself, which could have had inclusions?

I understand that Ruger barrels are hammer forged. That may be part of the problem. I have never understood why anyone uses reboring on anything other than a vintage rifle. Buy the best the first time. In the long run it saves money and frustration.

I agree on performance. I’ve seen mistreated muzzleloaders with lots of putting that shot better than I could. Proof is found at the range.

I can understand your thought on this.

I do have a Ruger African but wanted a SS with 22" barrel and I like the Ruger lines.

Other brands that sell the 9.3 don't interest me for various reasons.

As far as saving money, that's to been seen after I shoot it on paper which will be in the next week or so.

Looks like pre-exisiting inclusions in the steel that were exposed by the re-boring process. In the second photo, looks like those inclusions were dragged along the bore surface, as well.

From the cut rifles.com Site

Barrels that often do not cut cleanly:
• Sako uses a type of steel for their button barrels that is unsulpherized, it cuts to a rough finish.
• Old Winchester barrels seem to have hard and soft spots the entire length of the barrel.
They often will have small tears in the bottom of the groove.
• Old Flaig barrels have a high vanadium content and do not cut cleanly.
• Hammer forged barrels occasionally have microscopic air voids created during the forging process.
• Ruger Stainless Steel button barrels.
• Mauser military barrels about a 50/50 chance of cutting cleanly.

As long as it shoots good don't worry about it.Mine didn't look all that great,but it's one of the best shooting rifles I own.

Looks like the cutter hit those then chattered for a little ways.
At first I was thinking galling, but the way it's laid out (at least the 2nd pic) makes me think the cutter traveled left to right. The chatter started after hitting each spot.

Husqvarna also doesn't cut cleanly because of how hard their steel is.

It's not just an '06 rebored to 9.3, JES rechambers to 9.3x62 after the rebore. 9.3x62 completely "cleans up" a 30-06 chamber, moving the shoulder slightly forward, so it's a good choice even if the headspace is excessive in the '06 - it gets corrected without having to set the barrel back.
I have one with him now and this has me wanting to borrow my friend's borescope when I get it back.
OP, please keep us posted not only on its range performance but on any comms you have with Jesse.
Cheers,
Rex

I can see why you might think that way, that reboring is a second rate option, but the available data do not support that conclusion. I did a fair bit of polling before sending my two rifles off to JES for rebore and the overwhelming majority of his customers have saved a ton of money, had no frustration at all, and gotten excellent accuracy. I have also heard from some who mentioned the barrels being actually quite slow to foul. I should have my rifles back in a few days and look forward to both eyeballing the bores and shooting them. I'll report back.
Cheers,
Rex

Instead of having us all guess, I would have first contacted Jesse and see what the expert says. I do know that most that do rebores say that some barrels do not “cut” clean depending on the virgin steel. My Marlin 30 AS rebore shoots great and although I never scoped the bore, looks and fouls just like a factory barrel.

Will do, what rifle is Jesse going to do for you?


Check these out

https://imgur.com/W6biY4b

https://imgur.com/NlzNWXH

I had those same gouges in mine when I received it back. It is a very old FN Mauser 98 and the bore was pitted pretty badly. Had him bore it from 30-06 to 338-06. I assumed the gouges to the lands were caused by deep pits that the cutter hit, but maybe not after seeing your pictures. The neck area was also a bit oversized. The bore doesn't seem to foul any worse than it did and the accuracy is around 1 MOA with handloads, which is better than it was before which was 3-4 MOA.

Two 1903 Springfields. One from 1934 with the full sized hefty original barrel that will become a 9.3x62, and an earlier one from just after the "low number" period. It was previously bobbed off to a 19" carbine and it's going to become a .338-06.

What's the SU35 significance? Does it refer to the FLANKER variant?
Cheers,
Rex

JES rebore usually shoots about as good as a new barrel and at half the cost. And the outward looks of the gun doesn’t change; the stock is unaffected.

Less work, less money and a good result.

DF

My only question is, what type of borescope and how did you capture those images?
I want one.

Teslong Rigid Rifle Bore Scope, 0.2inch Gun Barrel Borescope Camera with 21inch Rod and 45° Side-View Mirror, for Windows, MacBook and Android Smartphone

And only $50 at Amazon.. Love mine.

Any borescope images before it was rebored? What did it look like?

J

No comfort to SU35 I'm sure, but I will still chime in with my "two bits". Sometimes what we don't know doesn't hurt us, AND the enemy of good is better! Kind of why I also despise mass social media and the "in your face" 24 hr/day news cycle... too much information that cuts down on the quality of my own personal finite life!!! No borescope for me... I suspect I would be "disappointed" with barrels much of the time.

As others have mentioned, go shoot the rifle and then make your judgement. If you are not satisfied with the performance, sell it and go buy a factory chambered 9.3X62 or spend the coin to build a custom.

I have had similar experiences with fishing/boating/camping gear, excursions, etc. "Less" is many times "more" when it comes to duplicating the joy I originally experienced with some of these pastimes. Gadgetry and` expecting perfection usually leads to let-downs IME. Everyone is different though!

Lundtroller, you have a lot of good thoughts there, but I have to disagree with the suggestion to sell SU35's new rebore if it does not shoot well. JES' rebores typically shoot well. This particular bore has some very demonstrable problems that may or may not be JES' fault. If it shoots well, then "pretty is as pretty does." If not, I'd bet money that Jesse will find a way to make it right. Because he has very, very, few post-rebore problems to deal with so I bet SU35's rare issue will get full attention. Still anxious to hear how the comms with Jesse go, and how she shoots.

And still standing by to hear the back story on SU35's "handle." Wondering if maybe we crossed swords some time in the past.
Cheers,
Rex

Don't obviously have all the information. Most likely not JES's fault... he has a good reputation. Not SU35's fault either. Just saying that if one's expectations are not met, realistic or not, just move on to greener pastures! Life is short.

When I had a conversation with Jesse, I remember him mentionioning several situations , ie. IIRC stainless barrels and those with the high vanadium content possibly making for difficulty.

I know I would JB it good and see what happens. I have never seen a bore that clean.....😎😎

I don't see JB cleaning up those potholes. They are a big deal. Unless they are not and the rifle shoots great. The answer to which, we await, along with the provenance of SU35's handle.
Check 6,
Rex

FLANKER-E My son's idea when he sat on my lap when I joined the club here some years ago.

Best answer so far, I think.

I have no doubts about JES work unless he tells me different.

This was a brand new bore and had no seen glitches in it when inspected before being sent to JES.

First bullet down the bore for accuracy testing will be a 250 AB.

I also think it's more of problem with the Ruger steel than his work. He's done three 9.3s for us so far, two stainless Model 70s and one Ruger No. 3.. I got a teslong recently and so far I've checked out one of the Model 70s. It doesn't have anything like the OP's Ruger barrel. Nonetheless, I suspect it will shoot just fine. Both the Model 70s I have shoot great. The most used one will put 10 286 partitions into an inch at 100. The other is my son's and hasn't been totally evaluated yet. I have yet to examine or shoot the Ruger No. 3. Anyway, I suspect things will be just fine.

Currently I have another Model 70 with Dan Pederson being re-educated from 7mm mag to .416 Taylor. I'll let the tribe here know how that goes when the time comes, but after much research and a fair bit of experience with various and sundry jobs from JES I've reached the conclusion that reboring is a sound choice for a new barrel.

I've got relatively modern barrels that have seen hard extended use in wet weather that look 100x worse than that, mild pits everywhere, and they still shoot MOA. Not what you'd want if you'd dropped $800 on a new barrel and rechambering, but for $250, I wouldn't sweat it. Machine work to me looks good. Better than lots of Remington factory barrels. The fact that there was an inclusion seems like luck of the draw.

The best thing is to buy a borescope and use it to look at guns you've used hard for 20-30 years. A lot of the time they look terrible under a borescope and meanwhile the reason you've kept them so long is they shoot great!

My conclusion and I would send JES another rifle for work no problem.

He cut rifles his barrels by the way.

Looks pretty clean as is.

JB won't affect those inclusions, those voids in the steel.

Sometimes a bore scope provides too much info. If it shoots like I think it will and if you'd never seen those voids, you'd think it was great.

Need a range report.

DF

Buy a borescope and look at other peoples guns. Leave it out of yours!

g

Hopefully by next Thursday at latest.

Good point. A borescope is to solve problems, not create them...

It provides info, isn't the ultimate end all. That info has to be calculated into the over all picture, does not represent the total picture.

A new borescope owner needs to be aware.

The final exam is at the range.

DF

10-4 on that

That ah spirit. Good words for our man, Jesse. Like i said before, a little bit of bore polish will go a long way. I'm betting as is, that rifle will shoot better than you'd imagine. I take a bore snake 3-4 calibers larger, coat with 320 grit lapping compound and pull through rebore. It'll tone down tooling or steel imperfections. Usually 10-20 passes. It'll cut down on fouling.

or maybe you sent him a piece sheet gun azzwipe

Thanks guys for the info.

https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Borescope-Side-View-Semi-Rigid-Smartphone/dp/B07TTQF24F

Just bought one...

Yes a bore scope can open your eyes so to speak. Can also cause heartburn.. Overall to me worth the money for the Teslong. It will let you know where your cleaning regime is at and condition. Looked at several of mine, an old Mauser 98K with the original barrel. Looks like a sewer pipe.. Still shoots as good as I can with irons. Winchester Model 70 finally saw why it did not shoot well. Tool marks from hell. Was going to buy a Schultz and Larsen in 7X61, looked at the throat with the Teslong. Alligator skin.. Saved an issue later there. To the OP looks like the issues were in the barrel steel. Shoot it and see.

Looks good.

If I didn't already have an $800 Hawkeye, I'd get one.

I'm thinking you really can't clean a gun if you can't see what you're doing. Watching blue patches doesn't reveal enough to suit me.

If you don't have a bore scope, get this one.

DF

Maybe a group buy discount on that bore scope?

Call the manufacture: tell them them youre trying to get the "24 hour campfire dick-move bore scope discount".

That you'll post the jess rebore images on a national public forum, before you've even shot the rifle.

I have that same bore scope but it doesn't provide a view as sharp as yours. I've been wondering if the semi-rigid cable model would work better.

In 41 years in the engineering field I learned one lesson. "Don't fully trust a photo" A photo is only a start to an investigation. The mark in the photo looks like a common chip relief from the cutting tool. The chip gets progressively hotter towards the end of its length. The hotter material will be harder and lift the cutter. I would bet that the deviation is within the dimension tolerance band.


I have several old Russian military guns that have barrels with thousands of flaws like the one in the photo. All they cared about was would it kill a Bolshevik

SU,

I could see the initial alarm with this. I once got a steal of a deal on a brand new stainless shilen barrel. The smith bore scoped the barrel after it was installed and ready, and we were appalled by the condition, pits etc similar to the pictures above.

Long story real short, it shot flawless. Cleaned slightly harder, but groups were around 1/2 minute with little work when I did my job.

MK

Get a NECO Fire Lap Kit, use the cheapest 9.3 bullets and fire lap the devil out of that thing. Then shoot a box of factory loads ( PPU or something) Just use a Bore snake and EezOx after that fr cleaning. If you get 2" and under, you will kill everything you point at in range! Have a ball pard!

Did you take any pics before it was sent to JES? It looks like the inclusions may have been there and the rifling tool caught on them as it passed. Not sure reboring could cause these inclusions 90 degrees from the bore.

My 38.25" scabbard scout rifle was rebored to my 41 O&M wildcat cartridgeby Jesse. I use this all winter for caribou and spring grizz by dog team

Firing 350 grain copper jacketed swift A-Frames at 2400 fps, copper fouling developed quickly.

It was easily removed with 10-15 passes of kg2 on a 45 caliber bore snake.

It is too fine to tone-down tooling marks. It only removes copper.

320 grit compound(Wheeler enginering kit) on the 45 caliber bore snake worked perfect. No change in accuracy, the thing stacks 41 caliber bullets like robin Hood with arrows. It just cleans up quicker.

In the picture, you can see my 41 wildcat next to a 30-06 cartridge, what the browning 1895 was originally chambered in.

Love the pics and info

My two new rebores from JES arrived this afternoon. I'm going to borrow my buddy's borescope tomorrow and look 'em over. I'll try to capture pics and post them. Squinting down the bore looks OK.

Cheers,
Rex

This is the image found via the first link that concerns me the most.

No pics taken before being sent to JES as the Ruger bore was normal looking.

That certainly is disconcerting!

And disconboobalated.

I just finished looking all through the two new JES rebores that arrived yesterday with my friend's Teslong borescope. There is nothing like the issues SU35 posted in his OP. The short barreled rifle that went from 30-06 to 338-06 was a real sewer pipe pitting wise before the rebore. There are some places where I can see the .015" taken off in the rebore did not clean up the pits entirely, but there are no apparent mistakes. The 9.3x62 having had twice the amount of steel taken off, is very clean and shows no evidence of pitting, but I found three small boo boos all of which were along the same side of one groove. They are all pretty similar and look as if the cutter slipped the same way three times in one pass. Everything else looks just fine.
Hopefully the pics tell the story. Three pics of the three gouges found in the 9.3, one pic of what both bores typically look like, and one pic of the only short section of the .338 I found where it looks like the rebore did not get all the pitting cleaned up.
I remain of the opinion that there was something like inclusions in the steel itself that led to SU35's issue.
Cheers,
Rex

Actually I am not surprised by your results.

Ruger metal tells the story here.

Reminds me of the day Ruger supplied Badger barrels for the Palma team rifles.

That was a disaster for the U.S. team.

Looks like gauling

Dull broach or double cutting chips and or poor lube during the cut

Firelap and shoot, shoot, shoot. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

Well we're still all looking forward to hearing how your rifle shoots, SU35. It wont surprise me if it does just fine, especially after having been shot a little bit. I've got high hopes for mine. I have a bit more to do to the 9.3 before I'm ready to shoot it, but I have the .338-06 is ready to shoot. Maybe I'll get to the range tomorrow!

tedhorn, are you talking about the images I just posted on the ones SU35 posted back on page one?

Cheers,
Rex

My thoughts as well considering the spots are right next to the groove, and all on the same side. Dull tool that is tearing instead of cutting.

Haven't cleaned my 9.3 barrel yet, but removed the copper from the .338-06 with WipeOut and gave it a few passes with KG2. Now there is no sign of what earlier looked like pitting that failed to "clean up", nor that small section on the edge of one land that looked a little "crumbly", which I had also attributed to vestigial pitting. Everything I can find anywhere in this bore now looks like this. Going to clean up the 9.3 now and see how it comes out.
Cheers.
Rex

Too much information can be as bad (or worse) than too little information... the whole borescope thing falls right in the middle of this reality.

Take it out, shoot it, move on.

I sent them a Savage 99F in 308, it returned as a 358, shoots better as a 358 than it ever did as a 308. I can complain with their work and they will be getting some more when I find another deal.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me or SU35 (or both of us) but I agree 100% and have every intent of doing just that. I just got back from the shop where I free floated the .338 barrel, and mounted a good old Leupold 4x scope. I'll get a new red Old English Decelerator pad on it this week, replacing the old thin White Line pad, which will bring it right up to my proper length of pull, and ease the kick a bit on this light 19" carbine.
Once it's proven itself on the range, I'll finish cleaning up the outside of the barrel (it was pitted worse than the inside), bead blast and blue it, and refinish the very nice walnut stock some long gone 'smith made for it back in the day.
I sure hope I did not give the impression I am unhappy with this rifle. On the contrary! It's been sitting in my closet for 15 or 20 years waiting to become something new and go hunting again, and I'm glad to finally be doing it, not just for this rifle but for 6-9 others waiting in the queue. It's ironic that I spent my adulthood building up a backlog of projects to complete "one day" and it's not until I got retired that I can finally get to it. But that leaves me with more potential projects than I can ever hunt with until I'm no longer able.
I'll post how this .338-06 does and look forward to hearing how SU35's shoots.
Cheers,
Rex

A few comments, coming from somebody who has owned a high-quality borescope for over 15 years, and looked through at least 100 barrels a year with it since:

1) Nobody can tell whether a barrel will shoot well from a borescope--even if it's pitted all the way through.

2) Tiny little "defects" are REALLY common in many great-shooting barrels.

3) "Fire-lapping" will not take out tiny defects like those shown in the photos, unless they're pretty close to the chamber. And even if it does, there's no reason the barrel will shoot better. In fact it may shoot worse.

4) Same deal as (3) with so-called "breaking-in" a barrel by shooting/cleaning repeatedly.

5) ALL rebored barrels are cut-rifled. Nobody has found any other way to do it.

6) Sounds like a lot of folks here want to start another schidt-storm over something they have VERY little experience with.

I absolutely disagree with #6.

Just observations, curiosity and very civil comments from people who want learn.
.

Yep, me too. I REALLY appreciate Mule Deer's comments (at least 1-5) because I was very leery of the recommendations to fire lap. I didn't think it was indicated at all here. I have no reason to suspect my two new barrels are not going to shoot great, and I'll post the results here, when I get them, to provide more data.
To recap this thread, SU35 had some seemingly non-typical "potholes" in his newly rebored barrel. So when my two new (and first ever) JES rebores arrived, I borrowed my buddy's borescope to do my (first ever) bore inspection. And based on my big sample size of TWO (OK, maybe I don't TOTALLY disagree with comment #6) it does look like SU35's bore might be a bit aberrant. I did this not to start a "schidt-storm", but to provide SU35 with something with which to compare his new barrel. When I saw a dramatic improvement in the appearance of my .338 barrel after nothing but a thorough cleaning, I posted that too, again as kind of a "it ain't so bad" encouragement.
I have not noted any particular pontificating here but maybe I'm not as discerning as some. Seems like a nice civil thread.

Cheers.
Rex

Not to argue but conventional lapping would improve the looks of those inclusions and subsequent fubar cuts. It may or may not improve how it shoots or reduce fouling, but it could. If done properly it is not likely to reduce accuracy but could make it necessary to re-cut the throat lead and crown. Typically you shorten a barrel by at least an inch and then re-crown after lapping. I wouldn't do this unless it shot really badly and then I would see if Jes could bore it out to .375 or larger.

Just shoot the damn thing and if it fouls use Dyna Bore Coat and shoot it some more.

As I've said to other respondents, PLEASE be clear on to whom you are replying, the original pictures posted by SU35, or the "for reference" pictures I posted in response. I'm not a bit worried about my barrels, so I don't need any more suggestions on how I should proceed.. I'll leave it to SU35 to chime in if he feels the need for any further guidance. Nor could I imagine any way one would set a barrel back at least an inch as a component of a lap job. That sounds really excessive. But what do I know?

Cheers to all,
Rex

I'm on the learning curve with bore scopes and have a no harm no foul outlook on all this.

I had a great conversation with Jesse about the above photos and this has been a learning experience for me.

No storm here.

This was a call out thread basicly

I KNOW countless shooters can post similar pics from rifles Jesse rebored. I haven't even worked a load yet. Pretty excited to see what she'll do!

No, it was not. Sorry it was taken that way.

I'm not 100% sure I know what a "call out thread" is but if you mean you think it was an attempt by a customer to disparage the work of his "vendor", I disagree. SU35 saw some weird stuff in his rebore. He posted pics so that other customers could compare what they had experienced. ONE other customer (me) responded with some pics that suggested (with no statistical validity) that maybe SU35's barrel might actually be kind of unusual. SU35 has subsequently talked to Jesse about it and it seems they are handling it just fine. We are standing by in rapt anticipation for the actual range results which will be the ultimate arbiter of [bleep] vs. shinola.
I think SU35 has been a total gentleman in this whole thread and has never disparaged JES' work.

That's about it,
Rex

A call out thread.....

What did he tell you?

UNCLE
thank you for your contribution.

I was just commenting in general that while a borescope can be an interesting tool, its role has to be kept in perspective. Certainly one of its roles is to diagnose a barrel that is acting wonky after a high quantity of quality attempts to make it shoot, not as a predictor of a yet un-tested barrel.

And just who got called out?

Certainly not Jesse (JES) as he doesn't frequent this site that I know of.

This thread really has been revealing! (Not directed at Rex, just in case).

SU35,

I should not have said "a lot of folks," but a few definitely made comments that were pretty negative. None were you. Sorry for the inadvertent confusion.

I’m not trying to start anything here, but there are posts suggesting using a bore snake. Many esteemed gunsmiths advise against using them in a rifle barrel. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Redneck respond to that effect. The problem is that if they get stuck, they are totally stuck.

Just sayin.

I've got a barrel that *looked* great, but never shot very well.
WTF?!

Will repeat my previous comments:

1) Nobody can tell whether a barrel will shoot well from a borescope--even if it's pitted all the way through.

2) Tiny little "defects" are REALLY common in many great-shooting barrels.

3) "Fire-lapping" will not take out tiny defects like those shown in the photos, unless they're pretty close to the chamber. And even if it does, there's no reason the barrel will shoot better. In fact it may shoot worse.

4) Same deal as (3) with so-called "breaking-in" a barrel by shooting/cleaning repeatedly.

5) ALL rebored barrels are cut-rifled. Nobody has found any other way to do it.

....and add that I've come to these conclusions after at least 20 years of experimenting with factory barrels, most with the aid of a bore-scope. Fire-lapping is only a real solution for a FEW specific barrel problems, primarily worn throats--and then should be done just enough to solve the problem--which is one great use of a bore-scope.

Hand-lapping an already chambered and crowned bore is more often harmful, due to possible damage to the throat and, especially, the crown and bore close to the muzzle. A correctly made barrel is not just pretty smooth inside, it's correctly dimensioned. Lapping it will probably change those dimensions--which is exactly why barrelmakers who lap bores do it BEFORE the chamber and crown are cut--and then cut off some of the muzzle section.

Thanks for the clarification John.

Tejano,
Reading back over this today I see I misunderstood you. I think you meant the MUZZLE would need to be cut back an inch or more. I get that and it makes sense. When you mentioned recutting the throat and shortening an inch in the same stream my mind read setting back the barrel at the breech. Sorry for my confusion and implying you did not know your stuff.

And JB, thanks for the input on lapping in general and its limited utility.

Cheers,
Rex

JES barrel business was cast doubt upon before you had a clue as to the job done.

Hell. you still haven't fired the rifle.

Would it have not been fair to shoot the rifle before posting barrel pics or at least cleaned it for that matter?

g

"Can't we all just get along?" RJ

Exactly.

Just think how pleased the OP would have been if he'd have shot it and it grouped like I think it will.

Sometimes a bore scope is best left in it's case.

And I've used one for several years, not as long as JB, but long enough.

Other than a few inclusions and some tool chatter marks, the bore looks really good. JB Bore Cleaner scrubbing won't change any of that, IMO.

If it fouls, use DBC and just shoot it. Go kill stuff; fill the freezer.

DF

Exactly and as often as not {probably more than often} a borescope may/will not show what the problem is. It is often the result of uneven dimensions of the bore which are unreadable with a borescope or stress somewhere within that barreled action also not visible.

JB is not a lapping compound

That's about as wrong as it gets. Here is SU35's second post on this thread on page one:
"I had initially cleaned the bore with Montana Copper Killer then did the Dyna-Tek thing. Shot it 8 x then while cleaning bore again I took these pics. Lot of effort to clean this bore, more than normal, but that was somewhat expected.

Don't want to judge the work till I really put some holes on paper."
So, not only had he shot it, he specifically said he "did not want to judge the work" (i.e. cast doubt on Jesse's work) without a lot more shooting on paper.

Cheers,
Rex

Just like I wrote to the last poster. please read the thread before posting. Here's SU35's second post on page one:
"I had initially cleaned the bore with Montana Copper Killer then did the Dyna-Tek thing. Shot it 8 x then while cleaning bore again I took these pics. Lot of effort to clean this bore, more than normal, but that was somewhat expected.

Don't want to judge the work till I really put some holes on paper."

So, he HAS DBC'ed it. And he's planning to shoot it a bunch more, and we'll see how it groups.

Cheers,
Rex

Just bought one also. Every thing in my safe shoots very well so ugly will make no difference.

Sorry Chief. Did I really need to spell out "fired the rifle for accuracy testing" before trashing JES?

This guy won't be wrong.

I have hand lapped (using a lead lap and Clover compound) a lot of barrels after chambering and crowning and it has never failed to improve providing the problem was something which could be improved by lapping (finish or dimensional shortcomings). If there was no apparently correctable flaw, the barrel didn't get lapped. Inclusions in the steel cannot be fixed by lapping. Minor toolmarks can and so can tight spots (with considerable effort, mind you). It IS possible to screw a barrel up with a lap; just as with any other operation which cuts metal. GD

For the peanut gallery

https://imgur.com/czD2zLY

After getting on paper at 25 I sent the next 6 shots into this group.

https://imgur.com/jw5AbAl
Nosler 250 AB's
N-540 63.5 grains for 2,700 mv

https://imgur.com/zHaKy7c
Nosler Partitions 286 grain
MR-2000 63.0 grains for 2,400 mv
First two shots were walked to the top 3 for a nice group

Ruger 77 Hawkeye, 8lbs 3oz 1-10 twist 4 groove
Mods include Ernie trigger spring 2lbs and Wolf Speed Lock Striker, 24 lbs.
These really help with accuracy.

Scope is a Meopta 6x42 German #4

https://imgur.com/MspAMjK

I’d say you’ve got a winner. That 250 AB load sounds darned deadly.

I'd say so too....my mountain elk rifle.

Looks like I need me some o' that N-540!
Nice shootin'!

Hey, congrats! It appears to shoot like a 9.3. Those are amazing velocities. Where did that data come from? Is it a temp stable powder?

Veeta-voo-ree's (or however you say it) data shows a max load of 61.4 gr for N-540 getting 2605fps from a 22.75" barrel.

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/?cartridge=92

"Holy phucqk look what Jess did to my barrel!" was how I first read the header. Anyone can see, in totality, no harm no foul. Cumbaya....

I've been wanting one of those bore scopes, but after reading this entire thread, I'm now thinking it could be better NOT to know sometimes!

In any event, clearly one could use the KISS principle here with this load and that barrel: Go forth to slay heaps of critters at any half-way reasonable range!

John

Quote from Mule Deer




My experience as well.

Nice shooting rifle.

SU35,

Those bullets touching groups is impressive. No medium bore hunter ever needed a match grade barrel. They are not finicky. To the guy who said back in the thread: rebored with "dull tools". Quite a theory there. Has it ever occurred to you that certain steels are cleaner/easier to rebore than others?

Again, superb accuracy SU35. Best $225 you could've spent.

Yes, it has, and also makes me wonder about the steel Ruger uses after seeing these the photos I posted.

Mind you, I have no crises of confidence in any of this but I do find all this stuff interesting.


$275.00 but whose really counting.....:D Well spent, and just shows here that Jesse did a great job.

That power ain’t cheap
$300 for 8lbs or $40/1 lb

I'm not saying anyone is unsafe, just using their data as a reference. Maybe I'll see about how temp stable they are and contact them and find out what pressure they're loading to.

Mule Deer...

If it shoots that good, I might have Jess put some "flaws" like that in my next barrel!

I just did a quick check for the wholesale price at Graf & Sons - $36/pound for the N540 compared to $23/pound for PP 2000-MR. Based on 2000-MR's performance in the 35 Whelen AI (almost identical capacity to the 9.3x62) I bet it's going to be a touchdown with 250 and 286 bullets in the 9.3. Our member, mainer_in_ak has had great luck with it.

13 Years Hunting Alaska with the 9.3x62
Sorry if this is taking the rifling subject too far off topic...
I was hoping to take the 338-06 that Jesse just rebored for me (I posted borescope pics of its barrel earlier in the thread) to the range this morning but it's looking a little too rainy. Hopefully either tomorrow or Sunday. It's loaded up with some 225 and 250 grain Hornadys and 2000-MR and Varget.
Cheers,
Rex

I've read that Pw Pro 2000-MR is very close to CFE-223. I'm not sure if 2000-MR has the same anti fouling formula of CFE-223.

DF

A good informative thread.

Some things I learned:

1) Some steels/barrels don't take to recutting/machining very well, and could be the result of several factors.

2) As MD has stated many times, what a borescope reveals may mean nothing as to how a barrel shoots.

3) JES is GTG.

Speer's recent data indicate they are pretty close in the Whelen (they're the top 2 powders), with 2000-MR slightly edging our CFE-223. I have not used the CFE-223.
Speer 35 Whelen 250 HotCor data
And while copying that link I found they have run it in the 9.3x62 with their 270 HotCor as well:
Speer 9.3x62 270 HotCor data
It's less of a standout in Speer's 9.3 data than I'd have expected.
Cheers,
Rex

Sorry I posted before reading the entire thread. Glad it turned out to be a winner. I think it is interesting that Chrome Moly is likely to have more impurities or occlusions than stainless. And what I am gathering is that hammer forging can push these occlusions away from the immediate surface of the lands and grooves but not by much. A re-bore can uncover them again. Is this correct?

I am in the camp where I might be better off with out a bore scope so I don't obsess about minutia anymore than I already do.

I actually don't think it looks that bad.

Oh, I should have realized - Speer loaded the Whelen to its SAAMI spec of 62K PSI and then did the same for the Nine-Three with its CIP spec of 57K PSI. I think I will take Mule Deer's advice and start near Speer's 9.3 max and work up to 2500 FPS or so - shouldn't take too much [EDIT: that's with the 270 HotCor which are pretty cheap for initial load playing in my as yet unfired JES rebore.]. If my experience with the 35 Whelen AI (almost identical case capacity to the 9.3x62) 2000-MR ought to produce an extra 100 FPS or so over what has been traditionally achieved with max loads - but as MD says - no real need to push this round beyond his guidance below:
Quote from Mule Deer

Quote
All published 9,3x62 loading data is based on old, low-pressure standards. I have NEVER run into any sort of "pressure sign" by starting with published maximums and working up to around 2450-2500 fps with 286s and 2650-2700 fps with 250s, of whatever brand. That's with three different 9.3x62s that had 21-24 inch barrels.

No doubt it could be pushed even harder, but have generally found 250s and 286s at those velocities kill big game VERY well.
Cheers,

Rex

I finally got to shoot my JES re-bored 9.3x62 1903 Springfield today. I just found out today is the last day our county range is open. They close tomorrow UFN because of the staff being limited by Coronavirus sequestration. I spent the last week or so getting it very neutrally bedded, free floated, and a Leupold M8 4X Compact mounted in NOS Buehler rings & base. I set the windage on the scope to the center value and then used the rear base screws to get it boresighted on my 100 yard target. Then I fired three rounds of Lapua factory 285 gr Megas. I got lucky with the boresight as the elevation was right on POI and the azimuth was less than 2 inches left. I was thrilled to see the second round land just over a half inch from the first, and the third just cut the second on the inside edge, for a 0.59" group. Not just the first group fired with this rifle since its rebore, but the first three shots ever fired with it!
I made some scope adjustments and then started working with my handloads, working up to JB's 250 AB / Varget combo. Today I had 58, 59, and 60 grains loaded up, and the three groups I shot with these went 0.65", 0.65", and 0.70" respectively, and that is with making a scope adjustment with the old M8 friction dials between each group. I am really happy with this rig so far and will do my best to really finish it out (stock and metal) nicely.
Recall I posted borescope pictures back on page 3 or 4 of this thread with a line of 3 little gouges I found along the same edge of one groove. In subsequent looks with the scope I found three more little boo boos along the same edge. They certainly don't hurt a thing so I really wanted to post these results to support the "revealing" aspect of the OP's experience of getting great performance from his pretty bad looking barrel.
I just hope I can get my 338-06 rebore (which has no visible flaws) shooting anywhere close to this one. Today's session with it made some progress but I have a ways to go with that one.

Cheers, and y'all stay healthy out there!
Rex

couple more pics.

Another point: I imagine everyone with a JES 9.3x62 rebore has the same long throat as me, since it is integral to his reamer. Even loaded out to the max on my Springfield's 3.4 inch magazine, these 250 NABs (SPS blems) have almost a quarter inch "jump" to the lands. Clearly, that doesn't hurt a thing!
My SPS blem 286 partitions (kindly sent to me by SU35, the OP) have the same jump. Speer 270 HotCors have about the shortest jump, but it's still pushing .070".
Hornadys (286 SP Interlock and 250 GMX), and the Lapua 285 Mega are in the middle. I have not shot any of these except the Mega, but have measured them. I just toss this out in case it is of use to anyone.
There, I have run my pie hole enough for tonight.
Cheers,
Rex

Excellent!
Thanks for the update!

Looks like a great shooting 9.3!

Yep, so far so good! Hats off to JES.
I missed out on the 286 Partition blems when SPS had them for cheap, but went back to their site last night and ordered another 150 of the 250 Accubonds. I think I have a lifetime supply of those now. Hope to see the 286 Partition blems become available again. Not many outfits have those in stock now so maybe we're about due for a run from Nosler. I hope they "blem" some of 'em!
SU35 grabbed a ton of them when they were last available and kindly sent me a bag to try out with this rifle. I think I will try JB's 286 Partition / Big Game recipe when I next get to go to the range (whenever the heck that'll be - closed for virus now).
And of course I have to give PP 2000-MR a try - should be fabulous in the Nine-Three.

Y'all stay healthy out there,
Rex