Recently put together a .358 Norma with parts from a few rifles. The barrel is an unknown maker but was originally a .35 Whelen on a MRC 1999 action in a fully floated HS precision stock. In that configuration it shot very well for my buddy that I bought it off of. I was present during load development with the 225 TSX and it was easily MOA or better.

I robbed the barrel and put it on a Model 70 Classic action and used a wood stock from another model 70 Classic. The stock has been pillar and glass bedded to this barreled action. It was also free floated but does not have much clearance. If I grab the end of the stock it easily makes contact with the barrel.

Initial load work up showed lots of vertical stringing with very little horizontal dispersion. A business card jammed between the barrel and the stock settled it right down to between 1 and 1.5 MOA but the card would shift positions between shots. 2 Cards would really send the POI high and groups opened up to about 2 MOA.

I tried several thickness and positions of electrical tape wrapped on the barrel. Like the two cards, heavy layers of tape changed POI significantly (as much as 4-5"). The vertical stringing pretty well disappeared but still had plenty of 2+ MOA groups.

I decided to work more methodically and used just enough tape (three wraps) to almost make full contact with the end of the stock but there was still some play when I grabbed the end of the stock. Dispersion was about 2"+ horizontal and a little over 1" vertical.

Two more wraps gave me solid contact with the stock. It was like turning on an accuracy light switch...

The next four went into .877", the next three with a full cool went .751", the next three with a full cool went 1.045". Average of ten shots was .891" with pretty even dispersion. If I were to overlay all three groups I estimate it would be around 1.25 - 1.5 MOA with 9 of the ten MOA or better. Plenty accurate for anything I plan to point it at.

All shooting was prone off the same bipod and rear bag for consistency.

Between the business card and the tape experiment it is obvious to me this gun will shoot with a little forend pressure. My only concern with adding pressue is potential POI shifts, particularly with a wood stock. I also know the barrel used to shoot well in a stiff composite that was fully free-floated.

My questions are:

Keep the tape and shoot as is?

Have my stock guy permanently bed a "speed bump"?

Get aggressive with the stock and hog it out enough to where it won't make contact even if it flexes?

I am open to all three options just curious what the campfire consensus is.

Thanks

“Free floating” a barrel wasn’t always a “thing”, I’ve been told.

Close to 40 years ago, First rifle I bedded was a model 700 in 22-250 and the gunsmith where I worked instructed me to bed the full length of the stock

Shot great

Recently I had a lightweight rifle built and had a tough time getting it to shoot as well as I liked. Even re-barreled it twice with not any better luck. Barrel was floated

Decided to do something similar to what you did by jamming some cardboard between the barrel and channel. Helped a lot.

Took it back to the shop and they bedded the last 4” of the fore end and it solved the problem. Gunsmith said free floating a barrel is just something people want because they’ve been told its the only way to do it.

If it shoots, just bed it like that

#3, more barrel clearance. This can be hard to accomplish if you have a plastic tip on the stock. The tip on a Rem CDL is hollow, so you can only take so much off!

I like a lot of clearance with wooden stock tips, especially those with tapered fore ends. Those have a lot of flex. If you can't get the clearance you want by sanding the channel, try a skim bed on top of what is already bedded and lift the barrel with tape to give the extra clearance while the epoxy sets up.

You can always go with the speed bump (#2) later. #1 (tape) is a temporary solution that might end up failing at the worst time.

20 thousands of barrel clearance is a thing… PROVIDED you bedded the rifle that is…

Each rifle is different! I don’t know if I’d do a “full length bedding” on a wood stocked rifle…..but, do like my “full length bedded” synthetic stocked rifle! If it will shoot, I think that full length offers a couple of pluses for the hunter….especially if inclement weather includes rain, snow and below freezing temperatures!


Whether you “full length bed” or go with a “pressure point”……you can always “hog it out” later if you’re dissatisfied! 😉

Imagine that……I didn’t answer your question! 😁 memtb

You had a barrel that shot fine when fully free floated. Now it doesn't because it's not fully floated. Hmmmm...
There is a real gun scribe who lurks on here who says if you can pinch the forend tip and the barrel together with your hand, it's not really floated.
Same guy has also used the old bread tab trick to check if more float helps. You take the plastic tab from a loaf of bread and put it under your action near the recoil lug and torque it down. This puts your action at a slight upward slant in the stock and gives you added barrel clearance. If the rifle shoots better you know that more barrel float is beneficial to your rifle and can now decide how to accomplish same.
Apologies to Mule Deer.

That's the route I'd take, since the barrel shot real well when it was freefloated before. Optimal clearance is key there too. Since It's already been glass bedded, I probably wouldn't use the bread bag trick, however that works well with a factory stock where you don't want to depreciate the value of the collectible rifle with glass bedding. That's why my smith favored the bread bag clip on some of his pre 64 model 70's and he had been doing it for longer than most. This is all under the assumption the OP's rifle is actually "properly" glass bedded.. Some aren't, I've had to fix a few done by "gunsmiths"..

Rifles are like women, each unto their own.

Excellent input everyone. I really appreciate it.

One more note:

Putting a pressure-tip in a wooden stock may result in smaller groups than free-floating, but unless the stock is extremely well sealed point-of-impact may change with atmospheric moisture. Which is one reason many prefer sufficient free-floating, enough to prevent contact between barrel and forend channel during firing. And a .358 Norma's barrel can flex considerably, partly because of the cartridge but also because the .35-caliber hole results in the barrel not being as stiff as a smaller caliber barrel.

While I have heard of it, I personally have never experienced a rifle that shot better with forend pressure. In my experience ample clearance and a fully floating barrel is the way to go.

On wood stocks I also like to hog out a channel running the length of the forend and sink a steel or carbon rod in there, filled with epoxy for stiffness. You can also straighten a warped or twisted forend this way too.

Interesting thought.

Not just a thought. Have had difficulties with getting more than one lighter-contour .35 caliber barrel to group consistently, including some well-regarded custom barrels.

Thanks for the input!

It is a fairly heavy contour barrel and is bedded properly by a competent 'smith. Kinda purty to boot!



I think my plan at the moment is to shoot it and hunt it local as-is for a year or so and see if I get much POI shifting. This gun is the backup to a backup to a backup so not really critical for any immediate hunting trips out of state.

If I trim the tape close to the stockline nobody will ever notice it.



In the meantime, if I pick up a decent synthetic that I like (wouldn't mind having one should this rifle find itself heading to Alaska in the next few years) I may just see how it shoots in a stiff synthetic fully floated with lots of clearance. If that works, it will be time to remove some wood and seal the barrel channel on the wood stock.

Interesting. What's the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle?

Also might mention that despite what some believe, fluting a barrel does not make it stiffer.

I am not an expert, but in my experience a gun with a fair amount of recoil, a flimsy fore end and off a bipod is a hard combo to get to shoot consistently. The barrel has shot good in the past , but has been rechambered. I believe you need to either address the fore end and shoot off a good rest , to work out the other variables. Then integrate the bipod back into the setup. Bipods tend to magnify an issue such as yours, and the recoil of a .358 Norma working against the bipod also does.

Have an old pencil Bbl'ed M700/270 Win that I bedded the action on long ago.

Was still unhappy with it, so I started adding layers of 1" masking tape across the fore-end channel, a little behind the fore-end cap, until grabbing the fore-end from the bottom and pushing up on the barrel with my index finger took maybe 5# to get it to flex apart.

Took it to the range and it shot great.

Used an Exacto-knife and cut two 1/2" squares out of the piled tape, from ~ 45° from BDC of the Bbl. back down to ~ 30°, and dug into the wood of the stock a little as well.

Then greased the Bbl. lightly with Vaseline, slightly overfilled the pockets with bedding compound, and then mounted the action tight.

After the bedding cured, removed the tape forms and chamfered the edges of the bedding blocks with a little sand-paper to clean them up.


It has shot lights out ever since.




GR

If I want contact/pressure between a forearm and barrel, I use neoprene O-rings. Neoprene is soft enough to contour itself to any irregularities and provide constant pressure. It works for me, particularly so with mannlicher-style stocks where the barrel and forearm cap may come into contact with each other.

Harold Vaughn was a bit of an expert on the physics of rifle accuracy, and he wrote about this issue. To summarize, it is surprisingly hard to make a really rigid threaded joint. Just 2-3 threads end up taking all the load.

There is a way to make the barrel-receiver joint rigid, by cutting threads with a special profile.

The symptom of a non-rigid joint is fliers.

If I understand his writings correctly, forestock pressure will only help of the problem is fliers.

If you can't do the special threads, then forestock pressure will pre-load the receiver-barrel joint. Sometimes that works. The lore I've heard says that you want about 8 pounds of upward force on the barrel. Vaughn recommends that this be accomplished with two nylon screws in the forestock, at about 90 degrees. The screws are tightened to provide balanced force and the right amount of force. I've personally never seen that done, but that's what he recommends for those who feel an overwhelming urge to apply forestock force.

And to comment on MD's correct statement that fluting does not increase stiffness: That's right, but it does increase the Q of the barrel. That is undesirable. More Q contributes more barrel whip.

denton,

Thanks for mentioning Harold Vaughan, as both you and I have before. There have been a lot of gun writers who've performed experiments involving barrel and action bedding, but I cannot recall any others who were actual rocket scientists--and wrote a book detailing their experiments....

I had a Remington 40X-BR that had nylon bedding screws like those described that I think were factory installed. The rifle is long gone, but the memories remain.

Exactly can't remove metal and make it stiffer

Great discussion and info. Much appreciated.

I will get a measurement later tonight.

Agreed on the fluting not making it stiffer. I always heard the main benefits were weight and possibly a little more surface area to aid cooling. I don’t care about either (if they even make any REAL difference), I just think they look nice

I'm mainly a synthetic stock, majority lighter contours, so my input on this may be limited.

I've had success full length bedding, free floating, 2/3 +/- length bedding, and bedding only the shank/part of barrel forward of recoil lug. Of course all of these are with the action bedded.

One more option...to muddy the water.... If the forend is easily making contact, consider bedding the shank/couple of inchest just forward of the recoil lug. This can help to reduce barrel/stock contact further up the barrel. It's an easy route to take if the action/lug are already bedded as mentioned. Just mask off the stock, release agent, build a wall where you want the bedding to end, and tighten it up like you're going to normally shoot it. Again, it may not be the answer, but it can help reduce forend contact.

Muzzle diameter is 0.66"

If I can "easily" touch the barrel to the fore-end by squeezing them together, I don't consider it free floated. I have gotten a lot of guns to shoot better (or start shooting well again if the stock moved with humidity) by giving the barrel a little more float.

You can always add the pressure back, but I think there is a good chance you can give the barrel more clearance, seal the stock, and forget about it.

Factory rifles would not have a "pressure point" if it did not work.
Guys would not have bedded the barrel to the stock if it did not work.

But I cannot get barrel touching stock to work.
I have rebarrelled and restocked and shot a group ~~ 5 rifles per year for 20 years = 100 free floated rifles.

Clark,

I have a similar amount of experience in shooting and bedding rifles, and perhaps even a little more. I have encountered a number that shot most accurately with some forend contact of the barrel, mostly notably New Ultra Light Arms rifles--which use full "neutral" contact with the barrel. But they use a very stiff synthetic stock, and forend stiffness seems to be a key--as it has in some other rifles.

But I don't usually prefer forend contact with wood-stocked rifles, because of what I alluded to in one of my previous posts. Unless they're very well-sealed, and the wood very well-seasoned, they may shoot the smallest groups with barrel contact, but point-of-impact can also change with weather.

+2

When you tried the tape did you wrap it around the barrel or just make a pad of it on the bottom of the barrel? If it’s wrapped all the way around it, the stock could be making contact or grabbing the taped barrel at its 3:00 and 9:00. If you did wrap it, try a smaller pad that only makes contact for about a 1/2”.

I would glass bed the first couple of inches of the fore end. That's what it appears to be telling you.

Most of my rifles have free-floated barrels. One wouldn't shoot that way. I used two layers of silicone tape as a barrel bump, and that fixed the accuracy problem. That was in 2014. It is still shooting as it did when I first fixed it.

I had a couple of rifles I was about ready to give up on.They had factory floated barrels,but those rifles just did not shoot that well.They both averaged about 1.5"-2".I had bedded the lug and tang,but it still didn't help.After several different test loads on those rifles one morning,I was about to go home and I decided to try something different.I folded some sheets of paper and slid them under the barrel from the lug all the way to the end of the barrel channel of the stock,making sure all the folded sheets of paper had about the same tension under the barrel as if it was full length bedded.Instantly loads that shot poorly shot really well and were not too picky about different loads either.Everything I tried shot much better than before.Those two rifles are the only ones out of my collection that I ended up full length bedding,everything else is floated,no pressure points.I blame it on the quality of the stock since both rifles had the same type of stock.Anyway I'm happy with my results.

I really appreciate everyone’s input. Has been a great discussion. Thanks!

If not floated, then proper torquing after a disassembly will be needed to get things back to the same POI.

Yep, between tests I used a sharpie to make a mark on the action screws so I could change tape configurations at the range without packing a torque wrench.

I placed a 3"x3/4"strip of soft weatherstip foam in a free-float barrel channel one time and it worked wonders.

At the range tinkering with a rifle, realized I forgot the cardboard shims I was going to use to play with forend pressure. Looked in my range box, hmm... foam earplugs, 8 or 10 of them under the barrel seemed to get rid of those occasional annoying flyers. That led me to full length bed the barrel with windshield urethane, it shot very well for a few years until It got a new barrel.

A little update...

I couldn't stand it so I went ahead and took some sandpaper to it and opened up the channel quite a bit this weekend. If I grab the end of the stock I can still make it touch the barrel but with significantly more force then previously. The results were mixed but I think progress is being made.

The first three-shot 100 yard group had two within an inch and a wide left flier. Group size was well over 2".....CRAP





I let the rifle cool and sent another three. These were just over 1/2"....Nice





I let the rifle cool and sent another three. First two were in the same hole, the third out. Still under 1.25"....Not bad





I let the rifle cool and sent another three. First two were ok but the third went wild, similar to the first group...CRAP






I studied the targets for a bit then decided to plot all the first round impacts from each group. Then the second. Then the third. Here is the results.

First round impacts from all 4 groups



Second round impacts from all 4 groups



Third round impacts from all 4 Groups





It looks to me like if I did nothing else I would have a very consistent 2 shot rifle. Unfortunately leaving well enough alone is not in the cards so I think the next move is to take a little more material out to make sure I have zero contact when the barrel and stock are flexing.

Swap the scope out with one that has a proven track record and see what you get. Easy check off.

This one is one of the "proven" ones

I would say you still need to REALLY float the barrel--which you apparently still haven't done.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Agreed. That is on tonight’s agenda

And forget 3 shot groups, they are telling you nothing

When you shoot 3 shots and you are getting "well over 2" groups", that says a lot. If you can't figure that out you are a fu cking idiot. That is when you stop what you are doing and re-evaluate schidt. 3 shots are fine for a lot of things. POI check at long range and quick checks during load development and also conserving expensive components. I shoot that size groups at 600 yards with many different rifles, so something is not right. The OP's rifle needs help big time.. I'm totally assuming he knows how to shoot. Again, with threads like these we have to assume the shooter knows what he's doing and he's shooting off of a solid rest and good rear bag with excellent discipline. The rifle is what needs to be evaluated here, the shoooter should be doing his part and that should be assumed. If not, the shooter should say he shoots like my buddy Troy:


With that being pointed out, 5 and 10 shot groups are really the only way to go when confirming a new load. Something a lot of you guys don't get, but you better be fu cking shooting like my buddy Mark, not my buddy Troy:


That's the same rifle, but way different group size. 5 shots to confirm and maybe even a different shooter on that trigger. Like my buddy Mark did to check out the load I worked up for this rifle. It wasn't needed, but a point that should be taken and considered:


After load work is done and confirmed, shoot your 3 shot groups at distance. You know it's a load that is proven and something you can count on. That's what a lot of you guys don't get. It's not just about shooting 3, 5 or 10 shot groups, it's validating and confirming your schidt..

I got the barrel channel opened way up.






Yesterday I shot it and 4 3-shot groups averaged 1.1 MOA with individual groups from .55 to 1.7. Good…but not great. The good news is the wild third shots went away and overall dispersion was pretty even. If I transposed all 12 shots onto one target the vast majority of the hits were clustered in about 1.25-1.5 MOA with a few hits opening things up to just over 2 MOA.

I am far from a great shooter so I acknowledge I may be the weak link here.

I took a hair more material off early this morning and re-shot.

Only had time for one group before I had to get on the road for work.

This is 4 shots. I am very happy with the dispersion.




I appreciate all the input on this thread and for the encouragement to REALLY open up the barrel channel. Seems to be the right path. Accuracy was actually better with the pressure but not having to worry about POI shifts will be the better route long term.

I think the functional problem with the stock has been resolved enough that I can work on a bullet powder combo to try to get down closer to a repeatable 1-1.5 MOA with a consistent POI which is all I would ever need/want this rifle to do.

I have partitions, Accubonds, Hornadys, Sierras and TSX on hand in addition to the Speer 250s I have been shooting. In its past life this barrel shot the 225 TSX very well. I shot a few 225s before messing with the stock at all and they followed the same patterns as the 250 Speer (vertical stringing) but groups were noticeable smaller.

Will see.

I know this stock had another barrel on it, maybe check to see that it's not getting weird pressure right under the shank? That picture might be tricky but looks like the bottom might still be able to touch?

Anyway...probably time to work up a load!

MD added the last point needed.

Barrels are female. Period. None are the same although many are "alike."

I would go ahead and open the channel to be dead certain everything floats all the time, .358 Norma is pretty sporty and there's a lot of force there that might have your metal AND wood flexing and vibrating in ways you never imagined. I've put dimes on top of the barrel near the muzzle and shot them off. Sometimes they orbit, sometimes they just fall off. So get clear first. You can do it "just right" without too much trouble, especially if the ACTION is properly placed.

If you like the "for sure" floating groups then follow that through with a nice thin liquid coat of epoxy to seal the barrel channel.

If you don't like those, go ahead and make a speed bump about where your experimental items were placed. Might work, might not. If it does, then do what John says and seal that wood after the speed bump is zeroed in, make it stable in weather.

I did a pre64 action with a Shilen SS match grade #2 barrel with a little upward pressure in a Brown Pounder, many, many years ago. Worked great for me. YMMV. I think I remember reading how to do this in a Rifle magazine article. This had to be 25+ years ago. The article described hanging the rifle upside down from tie points at the front and rear rifle sling studs. Then hanging x amount of weight from the end of the barrel as the bedding compound set up. It was a detailed article. My how things have changed.

It it possible the heavy barrel doesn't have enough support under the chamber area and is torquing the action in the stock? Is the magazine binding the action? Just two thoughts.

I have a 7x57 Remington 700 mountain rifle, one of the ones from the 1990's with the thin barrel. It shot in a general way, but not enough to satisfy me, sort of everything around 1.5 inch three shot groups. I thought it should do better. The barrel was free floated.

Just for the hell of it I tested it with a shim under the front foreend, about 1.5 inches back from the foretip: I put a rectangle of inner tube under the barrel there. Tightened the stock up again, and shot it. I got a half inch group, and have done ever since. I superglued that rubber where it was and left it. I only shoot three shot groups, but I have several in a row at half an inch, so I am satisfied.

I have tried this before, because I read about it in a Jack O'Connor book, but this is the only rifle to which it has made a significant difference.

I appreciate the additional thoughts.

I actually have been working on a 225 TSX load and things look very promising. Allowing for the human factor, I am pretty comfortable that the main functional issue with the rifle was the flex in the stock. I do have a B&C Extreme Weather take-off stock showing up soon with an aluminum bedding block I may throw this rifle in. If it is much stiffer and well floated it will be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes.

I’d free float the barrel.

Another thing you might check is your scope bases.Sometimes those heavy recoiling rifles can loosen things up,especially if they are aluminum.

Have you tried changing your bullet seating depth? I like to start with in 015 inch of touching the lands if my magazine will allow and then if my groups are still large, I will seat it another 0.10 and shoot another group. I also like to float my barrels.

A quick update for those that have been following along. After hogging out the stock it settled down quite a bit with the 250 Speers...not varmint type accuracy but all the crazy stuff went away.

As a Whelen, that barrel shot the 225 TSX very well and I had some on hand. Did some velocity work and settled on a load of H4350 that produced around 2,860 FPS. I played with the seating depth starting at mag length and shot several groups. The first time I shot, the rounds with the shortest OAL (2.668" CBTO) produced the best group at .948 MOA.



With groups getting better as I got shorter, I loaded up another 4 at 2.668" CBTO and then two more progressively shorter 4 round groups at 2.659" and 2.642".

They went .828 MOA, 1.09 MOA, .981 MOA.









Adding in the previous .948 MOA group at 2.668" CBTO, I have 16 consecutive shots that averaged .962 MOA. Considering the POI of all four groups is very consistent with three different seating depths and my worst group is 1.096 MOA (which included the cold bore), I am thinking...






Still need to verify drops but feel comfortable enough now that it is time to seal the barrel channel and move on to something else. Thanks again to everyone that contributed.