Looking through the Savage website, and saw this. Intruging in that it sounds about perfect for my 9 year old's first deer rifle, BUT, am thinking this will be a flash in the pan like the 6.8 was. Had one of the 6.8's in the 700 LTR that was a dog as far as accuracy goes. Imagine I would be better served getting him a 7-08, developing a reduced load and calling it good.....Any one messed with this cartridge?

It's a Whisper by another name... AR platform selling point.... Consider it a reduced 308 load...

Would vote a mild 243 for 9 year old and rock on....... Unless of course your looking for an excuse

W

My 6 year old is looking to grow into a 260 Rem.

Though it's not the most common berry on the bush (like the 243 is) it's a sweet pickin' and teamed with a 100 gr. Nosler Partition at a starting level of around 3000 fps the recoil will be pretty mild.

The the 6.8 spc and 300 AAC (whisper), it's a fad just waiting to fade I'm afraid.

Yep, they are just a flash in the pan.

Get the boy a .250-3000 or .257 Roberts. They are cool cartridges and not like every other kids' on the block.

Nothing wrong with either the .250-3000 or .257 Roberts, but the .260 Rem is as readily available, if not more so, and has more upside potential than either of the quarter bores - bullets with better BCs available with the 6.5mm bore for long range if he goes in that direction and heavier bullets like the 140 gr Partition are available if he wants to go after elk with his .260 Rem. Again, the .250 and .257 Roberts are great, but if you're getting someone a rifle that they can grow into, the .260 Rem is an obvious choice.

Get him a 7-08. However, the 6.8 is not a flash in the pan in the AR platform. Ballistics in a 16" barrel are virtually identical to the 250-3000 in rifle length.

Not thinking that any of the AR platform rounds are "flashes in the pan."

The changing of the guard is already happening (happened already among younger shooters) from old-school military (bolt action) to new-school (AR).

The Blackout looks like it will be a fun round with definite usefulness in the hunting fields.

Considering who was behind development of the 6.8, I'm not sure it's a fad, nor will it disappear quite so easily. While a niche round, it performs its job exceptionally well within that niche.

There is a key point here - AR rounds go with the AR platform. Other than the .223/5.56 NATO round, for what reason would an AR-based round be considered better in a bolt action than the non-AR-based rounds chambered for bolt actions? If you want to start someone with an AR (e.g., for adjustable length of pull with an adjustable stock), then one of the AR-based rounds would make sense. However, if you're going the bolt action route, I think a .260 Rem or a 7mm-08 (or .243) would be a better choice for a first deer rifle.

When people figure out that 300 Blackout will actually chamber in some situations in a 5.56 or .223 chamber it will fade fast. A few more kabooms and it will indeed lose its luster.
6.8 on the other hand rocks.

The Blackout's primary purpose is a subsonic round that will reliably cycle the AR15 platform and provide better downrange ballistics than a 9mm. It's supposed to be as easy to suppress as a 9mm.

The hunting round (non subsonic) is the ballistic twin of the 7.62x39 with a 125 grain bullet. It's very weak for hunting since most 30 calibers are built for 308 to 300 win mag speeds. Sending a 150 grain bullet at 2000 fps doesn't give you much range if you consider a minimum impact speed of 1800 to reliably expand a bullet.

I mean let's not forget we are talking about a .223 case modified to throw 30 caliber bullets. It's not going to be a barn burner. I think the 6.8 SPC is a much more effective hunting round. Just my opinion.

I have a 6.8 in an AR and I like it very much. Mine is accurate and deadly. Not sure that I'd want a 6.8 in a bolt gun but each to his own

I wonder if its over gassed when shooting supersonic ammo?

Because your rifle wasn't accurate, the round sucked?

"Flash in the pan". Name another round in the past decade that has had as many bullet manufacturers develop more specific bullets for it than the 6.8spc has?

Barnes, Nosler, Hornady, Remington all have multiple bullets specifically designed for the 6.8, in fact they use "6.8" instead of ".277" purposefully to target that market.

I'd be willing to bet 6.8spc rifles, uppers/barrels sales the past 4 years would shock some here that think the world revolves around bolt actions only.

I bought a .300 Blackout upper for my AR, from CMMG. The possible uses to me were:

1. home defense with the heavy bullet subsonic loads, and maybe small game with the same

2. subsonic suppressed loads, if you have a can

3. supersonic loads 110gr to 125 gr that approach the .30-30 in power.

It has so far proven perfectly reliable, using standard AR magazines. I did learn that the recommended OAL of 2.09" is dead wrong in my rifle. Group sizes were cut in half, and it ran just fine running a 2.23 OAL with 220gr Sierra Matchkings. It is around 1.5 to 1.75" MOA, with the first handload I tried, which was much improved over the factory loads, so I am hoping I can make it even better.

Wilson's 7.62x40 gets a little more velocity. In a fast twist barrel it might do everything the .300 Blackout does with more umph on the top end.

It is a niche cartridge for an AR with a suppressor. It also can double as a kids deer rifle supersonic as there is no recoil to speak of. It is designed to use surplus 5.56 brass as the parent case without complicated neck turning and it is SAAMI approved so no trademark issues. I built one up because I bought a can and really it does not silence the 223 very much. Still playing with it...

Yup, really like my 300 BLK. 125-130 grain super sonic are fun to shoot and out to 150 or so will be effective on coyotes.
Just a barrel from CMMG at $200.00 and Lee dies and I was ready to go.
130 grain Speer at about 2100 fps into water at 100:


I like colored tips:

You can buy factory loaded 85 grain TSX in the 6.8SPC which is very similar to the 250 Savage, i.e. 85-87 grains at about 3000 FPS, so did not some folks used to shoot elk with the 250 savage once upon a time??? To me the BO is a cool little cartridge focused on silencer use, a 1-8 twist for long bullets running slow, big gas port and carbine gas tube in a 16 inch gun and pistol gas tube in SBR's for subsonic powder loads, its set up to run those big bullets nice and slow. One big advantage is that it uses true 308 caliber bullets, uses a standard 5.56 bolt, and fits into a standard AR magazine, and it does shoot supersonic so why not unless the 1-8 twist scares you! IF the 300 BO catches on in a big way with police departments and military for special applications maybe the bean counters at Rem will stay the course, who knows for sure?? OTOH Bill Wilsons 30 cal has to use special magazines from what he says on his website. If you have to change to special magazines and/or the bolt head and if you are primarily a hunter the 6.x cartridges, or maybe Bills x40 or an AR set up for the 7.62x39 are all out there. Silver State Armory makes some really hot 6.8 (and 5.56) ammunition, for those that do not reload, ammunition is not going away. Most people that walk into a store to buy an AR15 do not have hunting in mind when they buy one, that's why the 223 outsells the 6.8 by 10-1, then most people don't want to hunt with one because the one they buy is set up to do something else (catch-22). Who knows what Remington will do in the end, but lots of folks still shoot the 6.8, lots of new rifles are chambered for it, even Ruger chambers their little Mini 14 in 6.8. I bet the 5.56, 6.X or 7.62 x 39 cartridges would surprise many regards what they are able to accomplish.

I guess I am just not an AR guy (yet). They just hold no appeal to me. Never said the 6.8 sucked, but the LTR in that caliber did. the 6.8 in a bolt gun is probably equivelant to dropping Toyota Prius motor in a Tundra......yeah, it will work, but it will not meet its full ptotential. I guess if you are a black rifle guy, then you keep up with this stuff. 6.8 was the talk all around the gun world for a while, now it seems to have fell into the 'niche' market, probably much like the 6.5 Grendel and the 50 Beauwolf.
I did a ton of research on the 6.8 before I picked up the one I had. I reloaded for it, and while there was hardly any recoil with that gun, I just could never get it to shoot worth a flip. I tried numerous powder and bullet combos. Messed with it for several months, and finally decided to move on. I really thought it would be the ideal round to get my son started deer hunting, but I was disappointed in the accuracy out of the rifle I had.

My best friend sends me about 4 emails a day with links to the Blackout. His tactical weenie is going crazy over it. The "operators" use it so it's the biggest thing in the tactical community right now especially with "AAC" name on it. He wants to build a short barreled AR15 with a suppressor for it. He has several full auto lowers and suppressors already so this new round is making his pants go crazy.

I really don't see the point unless you are going to suppress it and shoot subsonic. Otherwise, it's pretty much a 7.62x39.

I'd personally choose a 7.62X39 upper for the AR. The practice ammo is much cheaper and more readily available. If you reload, you can do anything the blackout can do.

And what magazines do you intend to use? You tried 'em yet?

The x39 does not feed well with high-capacity AR magazines. The Blackout does. No modifications are required to the AR lower or bolt in any fashion--that is the genius of the Blackout.

With 125 grain pointed bullets, the Blackout is a 30-30 at 100 yards and further. I think it'll kill plenty well!

fwiw,
I wound up with one because I had a spare sucks. Dunno what they will prove useful for beyond a suppressed ditch panther rifle. SDN-6 can should be approved by early February...

Should it prove useless, I am going to pull the barrel off, and build a fast twist 5.56mm for the 70-87 grain fodder that turns up....




Regards, Matt.

Btw, This is the Medium Heavy AAC Barrel. Very much impressed with quality control. Barrel is nitrided CM. Makes for an interesting combination with a SS action.

AR Performance and Model 1 sales use the new C-Product 7.62 x 39 magazines. The 10 round ones work fine, I don't need 30 rounds to shoot a deer.

A couple thoughts,

Modest muzzle blast from 16" bbl.

1/8 twist will aid in opening up bullets at low velocity.

Runs in standard AR magazines.

Exceeds 30 Carbine ballistics by a big margin.

Fun factor.

I don't think it will take the shooting world by storm, but it looks like a fun little round for civvies. I kind of want one since I shoot .308" bore a lot anyway.

Crunching some data through QuickLoad looks like a 150gr Ballistic Tip at 2100 fps is possible from a 16" bbl at about 55K psi.

I've been interested in a pistol round upper (9mm/45ACP) for fun. In comparison this looks like a lot more ballistics, while still being fairly modest in the muzzle blast department, and using standard magazines.

Very, very true.

I've owned four different rifles chambered for the 6.8 SPC. One AR, two Rem 700 Tacticals and a Ruger Compact. They were all super accurate and well mannered. The cartridge has several web sites dedicated to it.

16" barrel

I'm with you on the fun part nothing like a pistol round carbine for fun and when the SHTF...



Ruger PC40, the trigger pull was so bad it took two good men to pull it....

I wonder if the decibels would be lower from a 16 inch supersonic 300 blackout vs a 16 inch 5.56?

Quickload predicts muzzle pressure roughly in the 5K psi range for the supersonic 300BO, and 11K psi range for 5.56.

Subsonic 300BO in the 1K psi range.

If you are going to get an AR platform rifle, the 6.8, 7.62x39 or AAC Blackout would be great. If you are going to get a bolt gun, there are far better and more versatile choices.

My "kids" gun is a 250 Savage. Low recoil, quite accurate and kills awesome. This rifle has killed a half dozen elk and that many deer as well as the various smaller stuff thrown in.

IF I had to do it again, in the current setting, I would choose a 260 Remington. For small shooters, I would load it down and shoot 100 grain Partitions- just like I do in the Savage. Factory ammo abounds and it can be souped up a little for longer shots when they grow a little. There is a lot to be liked about the 260 Remington.

My thoughts exactly.

+1

Terry

300 BLK is not 6.8 all over again, for a few reasons:

1. The military will actually adopt 300 BLK.
2. The brass is only 10-25 cents each while 6.8 is 50 to 75 each.
3. The ammo is $12.50 a box rather than $16 a box. Ammo will likely go to $9 a box.
4. 30 cal is more popular.
5. It uses normal magazines.
6. It uses a normal bolt.
7. ~75 companies have jumped on in 1 year. 6.8 is about 8 years old and had much less rapid growth.
8. Many optimal loads are out or coming out in 2012.
9. Works really well out of 16 inch barrels, while 6.8 and 5.56mm favor longer barrels.

A suppressor is not required for it any more than one is for 30-30 or 7.62x39mm. Just because it also has good subsonic ammo does not mean that is what it is all about.

7 year old with AAC Micro-7:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...6.203519439694519&type=1&theater

FAQ:

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=73274


http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=63922


20 shot group from a 300 BLK AR at 100 yards with iron sights. Not shot by me. Shot prone, not from a rest.



Aimpoint Micro with no magnification at 100 yards. 5 shots, 9 inch barrel:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRw-ypBgrKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ALp8-d3dQ

I'd be very interested in the military adopting the BO, but I doubt that it will happen. The first time I shot the Whisper was in 1995 at Fort Bragg. Like the BO, the Whisper does what it claims to do, but it has a very limited military application. And just because there's a handful of platforms at SWC or "behind the fence" doesn't mean it's been "adopted".

I have an SSK .300 Whisper, the original by J. D. Jones and company. It has a suppressor can, also by SSK. I've worked up some loads but haven't shot anything with it. A friend has a similar, non-SSK version. He is disappointed in his, stating that it doesn't have enough power, subsonic. But, this guy deer hunts with a .30-378. It should produce .45 ACP power at a hundred yds. or so. I would think that would kill a hog or similar with well placed shots. Going supersonic is an option, but defeats the purpose of a quiet, suppressed subsonic round.

DF

Back when the .300/.221 first came out, I read several claims that the long subsonic bullets were actually quite lethal, because they almost always tumbled when they hit something. I am curious if there has been any documentation of this behavior in gelatin tests, or otherwise?

Beg to disagree on the mil adoption thing; been there, done that with the 6.8 SPC. You can puff up your chest and be really proud of what you personally did with .300 BO but until you can come up with the multi BILLION dollars it would cost to change the SCAMP lines at Lake City to .300 BO, you are pissing in the wind. Yes, several units have taken 6.8 overseas and put bad guys in the dirt with them as I have no doubt that they are also doing with .300 BO but that is a long way from general adoption.

In addition,a HUGE military draw down is gonna happen in the next 5 years when we pull out of AFG. Like it or not, someone in power is going to grow some balls and brains and decide that supporting a bunch of towel headed goat shaggers is simply not worth the cost in lives or treasure. When that happens, the military is coming home and budgets will shrink.

I'm going to guess you've talked to the same people at PM soldier systems and USMC Warfighting lab as I used to and while they make polite noises to your face, the reality is a different story. Don't get me wrong, I think the .300 BO is a great round in it's niche but just like 6.8 and 6.5G, it suffers from the 'not invented here' syndrome at Picatinny.

Their 'next big thing' is case less ammo and despite it having been in development for several decades, the permanent bureaucrats at ARDEC et al will not give up on their pet project in favor of 6.8, .300 BO or anything else conventional. Even if big daddy warbucks Freedom Group is pushing it cuz let's face it, FG is nothing compared to ATK, GD, Lockheed or BAE and those guys are your opposition in this race.


There are a few other flaws in your arguments: 8 years ago, there were about a million less AR users out there and much less mainstream interest in black rifles and calibers, hence much less interest in new cool stuff for AR's.

.300 Black Out sounds cool and trendy and is appealing to the younger demographic so kudos on finding a name that works to bring attention to the round. Don't kid yourself that the uptake on .300 BO is due entirely to the ballistic performance because the round has been out there as the Whisper for well over 20 years. Sure, you massaged the design slightly and took it out of the propriety realm of JD Jones (which, IMHO, like the 6.5G, was killing it) and made it mainstream. But please, don't pee down my back and try to tell me that the sudden interest in the round is due entirely to the performance. That BS won't fly with those of us with a grasp of history.

The traveling salesman for AAC makes his bi-annual drive by BS.

Time and time again you make outrageous claims that never pan out then disappear for a few months, only to appear again when a .300 AAC thread appears and you throw out more outrageous claims and claim the check's in the mail... rinse, repeat.

Too funny and TRUE!

aww c'mon, tell us what you guys really think.

I've always thought the round was interesting, even long before I thought about owning an AR. The commercialization of the round, making it readily supported by guns, ammo, and components, is appreciated.

Never underestimate the bureaucracy of the Army Procurement System... it rushes forward at the speed of a glacier...

I think it's a great round. One that I have been seriously considering for some time, whether it be in the flavor of Blackout, Fireball or Whisper.

But it is a niche round and I think a salesman for AAC would be better served promoting honest virtues of the round, instead of going from shooting site to shooting site constantly trying to denigrate the competition, with wild claims.

I am also considering the 300 BO instead of a used-new lever 30-30. RSilvers is one of the creators of the round I believe so he is really more than a salesman. The 6.8 is a fine round but I just don't want to have a separate collection of magazines that look similar to my other magazines. The other question that I have had was will a round fire if you drop the hammer on a blackout round accidentally chambered in a 5.56 gun. For sure the hammer will drop, don't know if the pin will reach the primer.

I would hesitate to call someone a 'creator' of a round that was already in existence. That would be like calling whomever came up with the 6.8 Spec II chamber the creator of the round. Silvers may have massaged the specs slightly and been a driving force to push it thru SAAMI but that's about it. Let's give credit where it's due to JD Jones for creating the round.

In addition, it is my contention that if you come to a website to push a product, you should be open and upfront about who you are and what your relationship is to the product/company whenever you post. That way, everyone knows your agenda and there can be no doubt that your position is tainted by your employment status. No one can then mistake your information as independent, personal experience when you post.

Sadly, I do not know if the .300 BO will chamber and fire in a 5.56 chamber. I know the 5.56 can be loaded in the 6.8 chamber and in certain cases I have seen, the extractor will hold the round tight enough that it can be fired. Usually only happens once though......

Within the parameters of the AR design, the .300 BO/Whisper is a fine round.

you should hone your reading skills as I said "one of the creators of the round"...further the BO was not in existence, I presume you are talking about the whisper, very similar but not identical.

He said "a creator" which has the same exact meaning as "one of the creators", so his reading skills appear fine.

It's pretty obvious they Whisper/Fireball was copied and tweaked just barely enough. It would be highly disingenuous to pretend AAC had never seen the .300 Fireball/Whisper before and created this from blank canvas.

Its a matter of interpretation, the round was not in existence, the whisper was in existence. Your arguing as you usually do just to be arguing. I don't deny that Rsilvers was influenced by the whisper, but that has nothing to do with the round being in existence. It was not "in existence" its a new creation, but very similar to the whisper.

Says the guy that was arguing the meaning of "a".

What claim was outrageous and did not pan out?

The credit JD is due is for building interest in the 300-221 concept of shooting subsonic. JD did not create the 300-221 - he trademarked his version of it as the Whisper(R). People have been shortening 5.56mm cases and opening them to 30 cal since at least 1969. Also, most of the dimensions were exactly copied from a Remington design - the 221 Fireball.

The interest is due mostly to SAAMI standardization and making several types of ammo available.

300 BLK was picking final dimensions for a standardized 300-221 Fireball and submitting them to SAAMI.

Are there SAAMI specs for the .300 Whisper and clones?

How is your round different?

DF

No, there are no SAAMI specs for those. 300 BLK is the only SAAMI standard.

I am not sure how it is different, as I don't know what those other rounds use for dimensions - as they are not a standard, so each drawing I have run across is different. I can say what we did...

We took a 221 Fireball and opened it to 30 cal. We set the headspace datum to not be on a radius. We picked the radii to something reasonable. We picked a neck diameter which would be compatible with brass formed from 223 or 5.56mm without neck turning. We picked a throat diameter 0.0005 smaller than 308. We picked a throat length that would allow a 220 Sierra to be loaded to AR mag length and have 0.010 jump.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/300%20AAC%20Blackout.pdf

https://danieldefense.com/files/dd_news/ddnews-dec30-hardcode.html

Plenty of misstatements and examples of questionable claims in this thread, the last time we hashed this out.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5650653/1

I can't read 11 pages. If you have a specific example, please let me know.

rsilvers will the blackout chamber and fire in a 5.56 chamber?

when is Colt going to release a rifle in the Blackout?

Ask Colt - the Shot Show is a good time to ask them.

Already pointed out most of them in that thread. I don't have time to revisit them bi-annually.

Here's one from your post in this thread that is a perfect example:



Rather dishonest to compare USED once fired, modified brass for the .300 Blackout to brand new 6.8spc brass and then to claim the high side of 6.8spc prices.

A quick google search showed SSA 6.8spc brass selling for 46 cents a piece and Remington 6.8spc brass selling for 45 cents a piece. I generally pay 42 cents a piece direct from SSA as they usually have it on sale a few times a year.

I gave a range of prices. You are welcome to show the lowest price for 6.8 spec brass - even if it is reprocessed. I can't find any, but 300 BLK shooters have that as an option.

I see SSA for 52 cents each and it does appear like it is sometimes 46 cents each.

In 300 BLK, new Remington primed brass - 27 cents each even in small quantities of 100 pieces:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/29...c-brass-300-aac-blackout-762x35mm-primed

Once-fired but reprocessed brass - 10 cents each:

http://www.allweatherarms.com/1000-...rass-1000-Pcs-Processed-300-Blackout.htm

Looks like the Blackout might be cheaper to reload, brass is cheaper. I don't think it will be quite as flat shooting as the 6.8 but for close range its probably OK. Again will a blackout round fire in a 5.56 chamber or is this something you have not tried.

I like sighting in my rifles for "max point blank range" with a tolerance of +- 3.5 inches.

300 AAC Blackout UMC would be about 236 yards - where you could shoot with no sight adjustment.

6.8 has a longer range - let's pick an example - say SSA with Nosler 100 grain AccuBond:

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo-Nosler_accubond.aspx

That has a max point blank range of 286 yards.

So that is the reality - 50 yards more range of not having to adjust your sights.

On your other question - you should only shoot 300 AAC Blackout ammo in barrels that are marked as 300 AAC Blackout or 300 BLK. Doing otherwise is potentially dangerous, and can lead to injury or death to you, bystanders, and damage or destroy firearms.

you answered both questions. I would zero the 123 at 200 yards (3 inch sight height from bore) and call it good at 2200 FPS starting velocity and a .325 or so BC.

By the way, you can also zero elevation at 32 yards as that is the near-zero for 200 yards. And maybe fine-tune windage at 100 yards.

thank you I looked at an AAC upper at Bullseye, I liked it because it was so light. I like that Knights flip up sight.

Sorted by energy at 300 yards:

The traveling salesman for AAC makes his bi-annual drive by BS.

Time and time again you make outrageous claims that never pan out then disappear for a few months, only to appear again when a .300 AAC thread appears and you throw out more outrageous claims and claim the check's in the mail... rinse, repeat.


Actually I PM'd Robert about this thread because I am an AAC customer and care quite a bit about them and their continued success.

Mike

I don't see the problem if any any with the thread? Its a typical my cartridge is great, yours sucks thread exacerbated because there is some hostility surrounding the way Remington kind of dumped the 6.8SPC. In the end both the 300 blackout, and 6.8SPC will survive our dissection. The 6.8 with the 85 grain bullet is nothing more than the old 250 savage and this cartridge killed a lot of deer. The 300BO is so close to the 7.62 x39 that with a blindfold on you could not tell the difference, of course the 7.62 x 39 has killed a lot of things including people for a long time. So if you want a 10 pound semi auto buy a 308, or a LW Bolt gun in what ever cartridge you choose etc etc. In a reasonably sized semi auto AR type the choices are limited and the choices are more similar than different.

I have a handful of C product magazines that work great. Now that they are defunct, I'd try the ASC mags.

Now the breaking bolt issue may be another story. I have an AR Precision bolt that has not yet had a problem, but time will tell.

300 AAC Blackout UMC is the #1 most popular rifle cartridge at MidwayUSA - there is no 223/5.56mm load - or any cartridge for that matter, that is higher ranked.

300lbs, 100 yards, Barnes T-TSX 300 AAC Blackout Black Tip ammo, AAC 16" upper - dropped right there.

And to think I had thought the .30-06 was the most popular.

All 30-06 load combined - yes. Just not any individual load.

This Blackout stuff is great! It's almost like you've convinced yourself you've come up with something ground-breaking.

I played with the 300 Whisper about 8 years ago in a 16" AR. It was very accurate and hell on deer with 150 grain Ballistic Tips. Mine was not 100% reliable on cycling the bolt with subsonic loads though. I used the factory 220 grain Cor Bon loads and handloads both would not cycle reliably. That may have just been my rifle though.Ejection with with the 150's powered by H-110 was brisk however LOL.

Simply because there are only 4 ammo options available at Midwayusa for the .300 blackout, while the .223 has 20x that and even 6.8spc has nearly 8x that.

I think it's funny that you don't realize how transparent your smoke and mirror show is to most people.

28lx: Did you have an adjustable gas tube on your Whisper? In my experience with the AR Whispers, you can't count on reliable functioning throughout the entire range of intended bullet weights without the adjustable tube. Makes sense, and I'd bet that the BO is the same.

No, that was true in the past with Whisper(R) or 300-221. That is one of the things that 300 BLK AAC uppers and Remington ammo solved.

Of course. That goes without saying. No one would think that 300 BLK all loads combined outsells 223 all loads combined.



Not sure what you mean.

Because it's just silly to keep cherry picking anecdotal information that is either purposefully biased or has no meaning whatsoever.

Why show a Midwayusa item search sorted by "popularity" unless you're claiming it means something?

I doubt "popularity" equates to sales at Midwayusa.com, as right now the 2nd most popular "brass" on Midway's site is:

"Speer Empty Shot Capsules 38 Special Box of 50 Speer Empty Shot Capsules 38 Special Box of 50"

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?&sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&newcategorydimensionid=5758

I'm willing to bet .38spl shot shells aren't the 2nd best selling type of brass at Midwayusa, so I don't think their search engine means what you think it means.

Another example was this chart you put up a few days ago.

Now if I, or most people, looking for a true comparison were to compare selected cartridges for 300 yd energy, I would attempt to compare apples to apples as much as possible.

Unless of course I was trying to sell a product and lead the viewer a certain direction.

At 300 yards, bullet BC is going to be a major factor. So it's curious that you would choose a relatively high BC bullet (and a match bullet to boot) for the .300BO and then compare it to a small for caliber (and correspondingly low BC) bullet for the 6.8spc. Then add a note that the 6.8spc round shown may exceed SAAMI max for the 6.8.

This gives the impression that not only is the .300BO and 6.8spc kissing cousins at 300 yards in the energy department, but that the 6.8 is straining to get there. Nothing biased there, no sir....

Of course a fair comparison would take a known SAAMI standard 6.8spc round like the Hornady 120gr SST, with a comparable BC to the .300BO match ammo shown and get a little more apples to apples comparison. But if we do that, suddenly they're not kissing cousins anymore, the 6.8spc round then becomes a 300 yard round with an energy of 923lbs compared to the .300BO round having 690lbs of energy.

In fact, no Hornady factory ammo for the 6.8spc goes below 860lbs at 300 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-120-GR-SST/
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-110-gr-V-MAX/
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.8mm-SPC-110-gr-BTHP-with-Cannelure/

I see the BO as a sub 200 yard 30 caliber "deer getter" when using supersonic loads and good bullets. Some reports on average (Poor) accuracy have got me scratching my head however. I am not sure the formula for making this cartridge shoot well has been worked out by a lot of manufacturers. Its pretty new, I like the idea from the standpoint that it uses standard magazines and bolt heads as well as that the upper/barrel would last forever.

I was looking on Ruger's web site last night, catching up on their new "American Rifle"...which is interesting.. although my jury is still out on all of these new rifle made mainly out of recycled 2 litre pop bottles...

what did catch my eye on their sight tho, for kids starting out, was their little compact model with the 16.5 inch barrel and shortened stock... was it is chambered in the 7.62 x 39...

for those that don't handload, that would be a pretty darn well balanced rifle for kids and deer hunting...ammo would be cheap for a lot of range time and practice...

if one hand loads, its available in 223, and 243 which could be good enough for deer hunting..

kid gets bigger, the stock can always be replaced with a regular one easily..

It does mean something - that there are a lot of people looking up the 300 BLK UMC ammo on Minday - more people than look up any other load of any caliber.

I used the 85-TSX for 6.8 because in the past when I have used the more common 110-115 grain bullets, 6.8 people accused me of not using the hottest load. They liked the 85 the best, so I put that in specifically to use their hot load.

The pressure of that 6.8 load does exceed SAAMI specs and the 55,000 psi of the 300 BLK loads.

The 125 grain 300 BLK load I used - it does not even have an especially high BC for a 30 caliber bullet. If I wanted to bias 300 BLK, I could have used a 30 caliber bullet that was a boat-tail and higher BC.

While the BC data for the 300 BLK was actually measured while at 300 BLK velocities, I think 6.8 BC values come from a 270 or faster rifle.

So there is probably a greater energy difference than shown, in favor of 300 BLK.

Not sure what you are referring to, but the results have been overwhelmingly excellent accuracy. Daniel Defense reported more accuracy than their 5.56mm rifles.

I even shot it at 600 yards and hit the 1/2 MOA X-ring.

My CMMG upper was pretty mediocre (3.5MOA) with Rem factory 220 gr loads, although I have not tried Supersonic in it, yet. It did better (~1.75MOA) with 220 gr MK handloads, although I'd still like to see under 1 MOA. I still need to tinker a bit more with the handloads. Or maybe I just need to get a Wilson or Noveske barrel

What primer and powder do you think is best for accurate subsonic loads? I have 1680 and Lil'Gun powder on hand.

Since Hornady and SSA listed those energy and BC ratings specific to those 6.8spc loads, and the Barnes 85 gr TSX is designed and marketed specific to the 6.8spc, I would bet you're wrong.

Think of the 300 AAC as a 30/30 on a modern platform, i.e. a nice 200yd deer rifle for a kid. Nothing wrong with that, but where it really shines is as a supressed rig shooting the heavies.

I don't see how the 300 aac gains anything over the .223 for a youth rifle, and really it is less flexible in that roll.

Most 30 cal bullets are made for 308-300 mag velocities. Shooting a 30 cal bullet at 2000 FPS muzzle doesn't give you much range for reliable expansion. 100 yards or under, OK. Bullet manufacturers will have to "buy in" to the BO and come out with super soft BO bullets for the round to effective IMO. I really don't see this as a viable hunting round but for shooting targets with your suppressor, I'm sure it's a blast.

I think the 6.8 SPC has much better hunting potential with bullets designed specifically for it's velocity parameters.

Barnes is releasing a bullet this spring for the BO. It has its pluses but for a man that likes to keep it simple there is really nothing that the BO can do that the 5.56 cannot do. Same with the 6.8 there is nothing you can kill with a 6.8 that I would not shoot in complete confidence with a 5.56 and the right bullet. On the other hand "who cares" as gun loonies are going to buy what they like and then argue until the last breath that your cartridge sucks and mine is great. Again "who cares" Foxbat's 6.8, RSilvers BO, the 7.62 x 39 or the ubiquitous 5.56 are about the same, except that the 6.8 is awful because its a .277 caliber and everyone knows that .277 calibers suck...

Could be. But it needs to be checked.

the 6.8 crowd doth protest to much me thinks...



To "protest too much" is to insist so strongly about something not being true that people begin to suspect maybe it is true.

Nice. Is that the same bullet as the TTSX sold as a component?

I thought that they did something different too it and made it expand at a lower velocity.

SB 301 would allow Georgians to use lawfully-possessed silencers (also referred to as suppressors) on firearms for hunting.

While silencers/suppressors do not eliminate the sound of a firearm, they do reduce the muzzle report of a firearm much in the same way that a muffler reduces exhaust noise from a car or truck. There are many benefits to silencers/suppressors: (1) they increase accuracy, (2) make shooting more enjoyable by lessening felt recoil and reducing muzzle blast, (3) protect shooters� hearing and (4) help reduce noise pollution.

Noise complaints are causing closures of shooting ranges, informal shooting areas and hunting lands throughout the country. Increased use of suppressors on shooting ranges and hunting lands will decrease these detrimental complaints.

While a committee hearing has not yet been scheduled for SB 301, please call AND e-mail members of the state Senate Natural Resources and the Environment Committee and respectfully urge them to support SB 301. Contact information can be found below.

I guess I will call on Monday. Its probably too late for my hearing but maybe others can benefit.

Hard to argue with that. That is exactly what the BO needs, bullets designed specifically for it's velocity parameters. I sure the 125 Ballistic tip would also be a winner at a reduced cost.

300 BLK ammo prices are coming down - $10.36 a box:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html

That 110 grain Barnes, along with the availability of reasonably priced factory ammo and brass is what pushed me over the edge on the 300 Blackout.

I have only had one AR before. It was a 25WSSM from DTech. With its relatively long heavy fluted barrel, I just didn't like the feel of it. Just too heavy. And of course, the magazines and bolt were unique to the round.

And though I'd love an AR10 in a 308-based round, they are REALLY too heavy for my liking.

I always liked the feel of the AR carbines, and for hunting deer in the thickets a semi-auto offers a definite advantage. But for hunting deer in the thick woods where I often hunt them, I just can't like the 5.56 round. With ballistics similar to the 30-30 and 7.62x39, the 300BLK should handle shots in this terrain easily (10-100 yard shots are far more common than 100-200 yard shots).

I remember when Ruger announced the Mini-30. I figured it might be near-perfect for deer in the thickets. Maybe it is, but when the reports of poor accuracy surfaced, I just never jumped on-board. I am sure some of the accuracy issues were due to running .308 bullets in the obligatory .311 bore of the 7.62x39. I am not aware that anybody has a workaround for this yet, but it seems to me that if you have a 7.62x39 that is accurate with .308 bullets, you are a very lucky SOB.

So, I jumped onboard and bought a 16" Noveske Rogue Hunter in 300BLK. I like the SAAMI approval, the reasonably priced factory ammo and brass, and the Barnes 110 bullet. And after my experience with the 25WSSM the fact that only the barrel changes (the BLK uses standard magazines and standard bolt) is a big deal to me.

This AR feels right to me now, and I feel comfortable hunting deer with this round at 200 yards and under. I think I am going to like it a lot.

I shot some 125 gr in my CMMG a couple weeks ago. It seemed to do well, at least at 50 yards.

Can someone suggest a load for the 110 gr Barnes?

hogdon online has data for the BLK

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

we load a lot of H110/296 for 110 to 130 gr.

Here you go:

Barnes 110gr TAC-TX 300BLK loads

Every time some new 300 BLK product comes out, or something is back in stock, I list it here: https://www.facebook.com/300aacblackout - so if you join the page you will be in the first group of people to know about it.

where can I buy 1000 rounds of ammo for the BO?

jimmyp

If the 5.56 is so good, why has the whole AR world been working so hard for so long to replace it?

Have you lot worked out who has the biggest d!ck yet...?

No, but we are sure it isn't you

Heck, I know that...your wife told me.

You should be sleeping!!!

It is only 8.44 pm, and I only have to do 3 hours at work tomorrow.
Besides, my pocket knife arrived from the States and I am busily fondling it.

[quote=WhelenAway]



Mostly out of pure ignorance. Grand pappy's M14 was soooooo much better.

Agree.

I have a .300 Whisper from SSK with J.D.'s suppressor can. I was amazed how heavy it is, much heavier than I had anticipated. Nevertheless, it's pretty cool suppressed. This one has the switchable piston for sub and supersonic. It can get tricky, staying subsonic. If a load steps over the threshold, the gun cracks and isn't that quiet. That can vary with hot weather, etc.

I wouldn't want a .300 Whisper or an ACC Blackout in other than a suppressed AR platform. Just too many other options out there for a bolt gun.

IMHO.

DF

I'll take the 7.62x51

The platform may be a compromise, but the cartridge performance clearly isn't.

To clarify, I don't measure a cartridge or a platform based on the ability to kill people. I never plan on doing that. It seems the 5.56 is up to the task (but a lot of guys would rather be toting a 7.62x39).

And for big game hunting, there are just so many (much) better options.

I can't see the point of this .30BO.

A .243 is a far better youth rifle. The recoil should not be a problem and you can even use it as an adult. Or at long range.

For short range deer in the brush there are far better choices.

As for using a suppressor, what reasonable application would there be that would justify the extra weight of the thing and pay for it with a lousy trajectory?

That leaves the same old quest for a higher power round in an AR platform. But why? The AR platform is a lousy one for hunting because you can't carry it in one hand at the point of balance (magazine sticks out) unless you keep the handle on the top. And if you do keep the handle on the top, you can't shoot it with a scope very well. The scope becomes too high for a good cheek weld on the stock.

I can see only two places where the AR platform might be the best choice: (a) personal defense and (b) CMP High Power matches. For the first, the .223 round is perfectly adequate and for the second it is required. For hunting it might be the best choice for open country shots on running varmints, or for carrying in your pickup because there is no walnut stock to get dinged up.

That pretty much leaves us with rifle looneys wanting to try something new. No problem with that, but unless there is some compelling reason, interest in the cartridge will soon fade, and it will go the way of all the other .30 caliber cartridges introduced in the last 10 years.

The 7.62x39 and the 5.56 are not popular because they are the best for anything. They are popular because they are needed for some popular rifles. the .30BO has no such advantage.

I have never heard this. Can you explain it to me.

A faster twist produces more centrifugal force on the bullet, which helps expanding bullets open up, even at slower velocities.

Last year I was shooting prairie dogs with a buddy. We were both shooting the same plastic-tipped 55-grain .224 bullet, but he was shooting a .223 with a 1-8 twist and I was shooting a .220 Swift with a 1-14 twist. Despite the much higher muzzle velocity of the Swift, the .223's bullets did a LOT more damage to the dogs.

Interesting. Thanks for the lesson.

It wasn't brought out for hunting. It's purpose is to offer better terminal ballistics, longer range, and and increased barrier penetration, and suppression compared to short barreled 5.56 guns and and 9mm subguns.

That's just my point. What good is it?

Better terminal ballistics? If it's subsonic, it's trajectory is like a baseball. If not subsonic, there's no point in suppression.

What good is suppression anyway, by the time you pay for the class III license and hang a heavy can on the muzzle? Does that make it muzzle heavy?

If you want "better terminal ballistics, longer range, and and increased barrier penetration," there's a thing called a .308. Or a 30-40 Krag, for that matter.

There are some things best left out of an AR platform.

IndyCA35, why do you opine about stuff you obviously haven't the first clue about? Your last two posts are fraught with ignorance.

You don't need a class III license to own a suppressor. It's only an NFA stamp.

Yes, AR-15's are quite easy to hold with one hand. Ask any soldier carrying an M4 or A4 the past decade or any hunter that uses an A4/M4 style AR.

Yes, suppressors have a place in hunting. That is why dozens of states have legalized it. In the East where woodlots may be close to houses, people prefer to not wake up the neighbors with a .270 Win going off at 7 am on a Sunday.

Yes, AR's are practical for hunting. They have become the weapon of choice for Coyote and especially hog hunters.

Not everyone hunts like you, hunts the same thing as you or is restricted by draconian laws, like you may be.

Yes, the .300BO has a niche, it's called suppressor hunting. It fills that niche admirably, though I disagree with the marketing rep who resuscitated this thread after half a year, in that it is not a very good all around cartridge. But that's the beauty of the AR. I can have .300BO, 6.8spc and 5.56 uppers for a single receiver if I so choose.

Foxbat,

I'll concede your point about silencers. I admit I've never had one or checked the laws closely. I'd heard trhey were "illegal." Guess I was wrong.

But who cares? A "big game" (or small game) cartridge with an MV less than 1100 fps is pretty pathetic. What good is it? The table you posted said the maximum PB range is only 108 yards. You'd probably have to use a rangefinder to hit something at 125 or 150 yards.

And how many people care about sound suppressed hunting anyway? For the last 118 years it has been easy to load a 30-30 to subsonic speeds. For the past 120 years 220 grain bullets have been available (though they might not stabilize in a 30-30). If you really needed a 220 grain subsonic bullet, though, what's wrong with putting a suppressor on an 1873 Winchester lever action (use a replica, please)? I think 1873 Winchesters have been around for about 139 years.

So why didn't someone do this--a sound suppressed hunting rifle--before? Answer: No need.

And I don't think you CAN carry an AR15 with one hand at the point of balance unless it has the carrying handle on it, per the original M16 style. Otherwise the protruding magazine gets in the way. That makes it an iron sight only proposition because the scope must be mounted atop the carrying handle, making it at least 1.5" too high to get a decent cheek position.

The nice thing about an AR, as you noted, is you can change uppers. If you get a .223 upper with a 7.7 inch twist you can shoot 75 grain Hornadys and 77 grain Sierras. Either way, their sectional density and ballistic coefficient is a lot better than the .30BO's 125 grain bullet, let alone a Barnes 110 grain bullet. In fact it's comparable to a 150 grain .30 bullet. And you can launch it at 2700 fps instead of a puny 2200 fps.

That means that the .223 (or 5.56x45mm) is a better long range proposition, bucks the wind better, and, with superior sectional density, penetrates barriers better if the bullets are well constructed.

I cannot see the slightest advantage to the .30BO for anything. I think it's one of those "planned obsolescence" attempts on the part of the industry to compensate for their problem that a firearm will last 100 years or so.

I think of the .30BO as sort of a fad, like Mossberg putting green "zombie" decals on their faux-"tacticool" rifles.

In the AR platform, the .223 caliber beats the .30BO in all categories except subsonic squib loads.

And if anyone is really concerned about noise, they can get a .22 Long Rifle upper for an AR15. Ammo's cheaper too.

Pretty good article in American Rifleman a couple of months back for people who aren't sure whether the Whisper and Blackout are the same cartridge. They laid out some facts, shot some guns, and quoted both makers.

Regardless of who invented it, I am pretty close to ordering a 10-12" Contender barrel in that round. With a threaded muzzle. The .300 whatever will outshoot a .30-30 in a pistol, with a lot less felt recoil, and the suppressor will only improve accuracy by making it muzzle heavy and quiet. It looks like a really good hunting pistol round to me.

I see no reason for a bolt action rifle in any pistol round, but that doesn't keep Ruger from selling .357 Magnum bolt actions. So, buy it if you like it and if you don't, buy something else. And go shooting.

I hunt with an AR, I'm not guessing. I own a suppressor(legally), I'm not guessing.

I own Sako 85's, a Nosler 48, Remington Ti's and a Cooper. I can hunt with some of the finest production rifles there are, and do, but guess what I use for hog and coyote hunting? one of my 6.8spc AR's. The 6.8 in the AR platform is absolutely the finest hog rifle ever invented.

Wrap your fingers around an AR magwell, palm over the ejection port and thumb over the receiver top/handguard. Depending on barrel/stock weight just like any bolt action, they balance just fine. I carry them that way all the time hog hunting.

No one using a .300BO for suppressor hunting, is shooting long range. The average deer shot in the Eastern U.S. is shot inside 70 yards. Most areas where a suppressor is going to be used, inside 50 yards.

I won't argue the .300BO has great ballistics, it doesn't, which I already pointed out. It is strictly a niche round for suppressor hunting IMO. It just happens to be (along with it's brother, the .300 Whisper) the easiest AR round to set up for subsonic hunting. There is only one way to make up for low velocity... heavy bullets. You can make any AR round south of the 6.8 subsonic, but at that velocity, they just don't have the asz to take down most game at 50 yards.



It's just become legal in many states to hunt, in the past decade.

It's not just hunting that is the draw for suppressors, I can walk out in my back yard and shoot suppressed .22LR's or even subsonic 5.56's all day. My neighbors would be annoyed with I did that with unsuppressed 5.56, but it's completely legal and I'm not disturbing anyone.

And just to counter the heavy barrel issue. My Gemtech weighs 13 oz. My 6.8spc Wilson bbl weighs 25oz.

My hog hunting rig, suppressed, weighs less barrel forward than a 24" sporter barrel for a bolt action.

I have been hunting deer with a 300 whisper for 12 years and my Noveske AR in 300 Blackout for a year. I am a farmer and have damage permits to shoot deer year round. I have shot many many deer during the last 12 years. Seven this fall, all with the Blackout suppressed. Range has been from 20-185 yards. Every last one has been shot using the suppressor. I have so far never recovered a bullet. Everyone has been a pass through. I have also never lost a deer. Tell me they don't have enough whump yet the bullet goes clean through at 185 yds. Geez Louise, how much killing does a deer need? As far as carrying. Ever heard of a two point sling? Muzzle is down nice and safe and comes right up to the shoulder for snap shooting. I think a lot of the negative posts are from folks that don't hunt a lot. Hundreds of deer later, I know what my blackout will do.

Very cool, Matineta. That 185 yard shot must have been a sight. Must have resembled the old eephus pitch.

Too bad we can't hunt deer in my state with a suppressor, only yotes and hogs.

Lot's of inaccuracies in the posts by IndyCA35, and I won't even bother to refute them. The test results are all available on the AAC website. If he's too lazy to look, or too stupid to understand them, I cannot fix it.

Besides suppressed hunting, a lot of deer and hog hunting is done at close range, where fast follow-up shots are sometimes needed. The Blackout with supersonic loads fits the bill well.

Think of the Blackout AR15 as a semi-auto Winchester M94

Or a 7.62x39 AR15 that doesn't break bolts or fail to feed

Or as an accurate Ruger Mini-30

With supersonics, 2.5" high at 100 is 2.5" low at 200.

Not flat, but I can live with it for short range hunting.

I care about suppressed hunting rifles for a couple of reasons.

1. I hunt some locations that are suburban. Reducing and changing the sound signature helps keep Mrs. Kravitz from across the street from complaining.

2. I like my hearing and want to be able to hear my grandchildren.

3. By reducing the muzzleblast the deer are "confused" as to which way the sound came from, which allows for follow up shots on deer #2 & #3.

Thanks for your interest in the topic though.

Martin said all those shots were suppressed, so I was assuming subsonic. Just an assumption on my part.

Well sir, I looked on the AAC web site and it does not seem to mention the .300 BO or whatever it's called. I was looking for a set of ballistic tables out to 300 yards. The data I posted was from Foxbat's post and from the Hornady reloading handbook.

So call someone else stupid and lazy, please. Or cite the inaccuracies if you can find any.

A couple of comments. If you're surrounded by subdivisions, you don't want a big bullet going several hundred feet per second because it will ricochet. Mrs. Kravitz will be a lot more upset when a bullet smashes through her window than by hearing the crack of a high velocity bullet that explodes on impact.

I'm a trophy hunter, not a cull hunter. Usually I don't have the opportunity or inclination to shoot does in the head at 185 yards because I don't like to wound game. Almost any pistol caliber would probably work as well for that shot.

Often deer and hogs are at short range. But sometimes they're not. Why not shoot something you can use for all game encountered?

The comment about the suppressor confusing the deer is true. South Africans use suppressors on high velocity rifles for just this reason.

The AR with a .300 supersonic bullet is sort of like a semiautomatic Winchester 94 in 30-30, you said. True but I'm not sure it's much of an improvement--or any faster when push comes to shove.

It's STILL hard to carry an AR15 with one hand at the point of balance. If that were not true, why did Mr. Stoner put a carrying handle on the M16 in the first place?

Yes. I understood that too. I just wanted to interject that the supersonic trajectory was not all that bad, for some applications.

Well my experience has been positive with Whisper.

Some information to study.

300 Blackout Technical Data




For me, that leaves ANY AR15 platform cartridge off the radar. I'd want a lot more juice than any of them offer.

Thank you for the link, WhelenAway. For some reason, if you google "AAC," it doesn't find this web page but only another one with their suppressors on it.

I wanted to compare the .300 Blackout with the .223 using 75 grain Hornady HPBT bullets, which are probably the most popular bullets currently used in NRA High Power competition at 200, 300, and 600 yards.

Guess what? The Hornady 75 grain .223 bullets, loaded (according to Hornady) to 2700 fps, beats out the .300 Blackout supersonic loads. Briefly, the .223 starts out at a much higher velocity with a bullet that has a better ballistic coefficient than the 110 grain Barnes or 125 grain Match. At 300 yards--sighted in at 200 yards--it is 8.9 inches low vs. 14 inches or more for the two 300 bullets. It has 707 foot pounds of energy at this distance vs. 606 and 681 respectively for the two 30 caliber bullets.

The .223 data is from an AR15 with a 20" barrel while the .300 data is from a 16 inch barrel. However, I don't think it would make much of a difference. There just isn't enough difference, in my opinion, between a .223 with good ammo and a 300 blackout to justify the latter.

Much of the .300 information seems to be aimed at military applications with short (9 inch) barrels etc. There are advantages to it there, but that is not my application.

As for calling the .300 a semi-automatic 30-30, I think the 30-30 is in an entirely different class. A 30-30 can fire much heavier bullets at higher velocities. The .300 seems midway between the old M1 Carbine round, which can shoot 110 grain bullets at 2000fps. and the 30-30, which can shoot 110 grain bullets at 2600 fps, says Hornady.

I am still unimpressed with the .300 as a hunting cartridge and will also add that I would not hunt deer with a .223 either.

You miss the point Indy. Its not supersonic that makes the Blackout so much fun, Its shooting quietly with a round that will cycle in an AR and drop deer and pigs like a stone. I am not aware of another round in AR15 format that will do that. I am saving my nickles for a sig AR in 308. I can use my same suppressor on it and the sig will cycle subsonic .308 win.

This. Quiet heavy bullets. Although I prefer mine in a bolt gun.

I drop deer with a 5.56 just fine. I kill with 62 grain TSX bullets, pass thru no problemo. Just 4 hours ago I killed a 200 pound pig with a 75 grain Scirocco 2, 1 bullet into the shoulder pig dropped on the spot, it did not exit. To each his own, but no one should have the slightest doubt that a 5.56 will not drop a deer in its tracks with a decent bullet.

Yep, and we have been killing hogs on the farm with 22 rifles for close to 100 years.

Elmer you must be a good shot with the barrel against their heads. I am sure they "drop like a stone" that way.

Maybe but look at what you give up.

According to AAC, the subsonic 200 grain SMK load, sighted at 100 yards, is 33 inches low at only 200, and over 100 inches low at 300!!. The 200 yard drop is worse than a .22 LR equally sighted.

Many varmint hunters (woodchuck in these parts) like to have a rise of only an inch. Applying that standard would give you 1" above LOS at 50 yards and 4 inches low at 100!! That's not even useful for varmints.

And what's with this 400 foot pounds of energy? The lowly .30 Carbine has 986 foot pounds at the muzzle, and doesn't drop below the .300 BO until you get out around 200 yards--if you can even hit anything with a 33 inch drop.

Penetration? It correlates with bullet momentum. The momentum is the same as a .30 carbine (half the velocity times twice the weight). That's not very much. I have seen .30 carbine bullets lodge in the target frames at 200 yards.

Here are the .300 BO objectives, according to AAC's web site. I have put my comments in capitals below each of their objectives.

Create a reliable compact 30-.‐cal solution for AR platform

I'M INTERESTED IN PERFORMANCE AND RESULTS. WHO CARES IF IT'S .30 CALIBER OR IN AN AR PLATFORM?

Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity

UNLESS YOU'RE THE ARMY, WHO CARES? MAGS ARE CHEAP.

Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire

THERE'S NO SOUND SUPPRESSION UNLESS YOU LIMIT THE RANGE TO LESS THAN AN 1873 SPRINGFIELD.

Create compatible full power ammunition that matches 7.62x39 ballistics

WHY? 7.62X39 IS PRETTY CRUMMY BALLISTICS, AND I THINK "FULL POWER" MEANS 7.62X51 AT LEAST.

Work with subsonic and full power ammunition without requiring adjustable gas.

AGAIN, WHO CARES? YOUR ZEROS ARE GOING TO BE GROSSLY OFF AND HAVE TO BE ADJUSTED.

Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-.‐mass projectiles

EQUALS A .30 CARBINE FROM WWII.

Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

RECOIL, BY NEWTON'S SECOND LAW, IS ALSO IDENTICAL TO A .30 CARBINE (if the weight is the same).

Add to this the fact that heavy bullets and low velocities are frankly dangerous around populated areas because they have a much higher propensity to ricochet if fired at low angles.

You are wise to get a SIG in .308. If I were you, I'd dispense with the suppressed .308 loads and use lighter supersonic bullets. Explain to the neighbors why they're safer. If you only shoot seven deer a year, it shouldn't be any problem.

In the interest of results I submit the following

300 Whisper 40 yards


300 whisper 12 yards


44 mag 35 yards


44 mag 28 yards


Big heavy subsonic suppressed bullets work great by me and to think I never dialed 300 yard dope into the turrets.

Obviously, it works just fine . . . in the hands of a good hunter.

You mean placement matters?!?!

Obviously. But the point is---you can't always get perfect shot placement. And at least in Ohio, you can get shots on white tails at 100 yards of more. I'd much rather take the shot with a .308 or with your .44 magnum. Both of these are far superior to the .300 BO with 220 grain bullets.

Also why screw around with trying to cram everything into an AR15 platform. The .44 magnum rifle in the photo obviously didn't need a 20-shot magazine.

That's a nice chart, but too bad you left out the 6.5 Grendel (aka 264 LBC). It would show a 6.5mm 123gr Scenar started at 2400 FPS still with over 1000 ft-lb of energy at 300 yards.

I think it's a much superior round to either the 300 BO or the 6.8 Rem.

Oh and the 44 mag was loaded to subsonic velocities also. Comparable to 44 special. Again big slow bullets with no straw man worries about ricochet.

Please don't take ricochets lightly. A .22 Long Rifle bullet will ricochet where a high velocity varmint bullet from a .223 will not. It's all about bullet construction and velocity.

One of my former clubs found that bullets were ricocheting down range when fired into a backstop. We didn't think this was possible, but one of our members, who lived a good distance down range, reported bullets were hitting his property. We consulted the NRA who told us how to shore up the backstop with a lot of construction (and member assessments).

Neither the 22 LR nor a high velocity varmint bullet are under discussion here. Please cite (other than anecdotal) your assertion that a slow bullet is any more prone to ricochet than a fast bullet.

That's why if you close your eyes, you can hear the death rattle of the Grendel.

But I would take anything provided by Mr. Silvers and AAC with a grain of salt. They believe marketing and honesty are contradictions in terms. Not just in regard to the .300BO, where I've had words with Mr. Silvers on stretching the truth on several occasions, but even their suppressors.

I was considering one of their suppressors recently and was amazed that their specs showed that it only added 4 inches to the rifle.

Then I went and looked at one in person and laughed when I realized that in the world of AAC, a suppressor that requires a proprietary adapter made by them, that adds almost 4 inches to the rifle barrel, doesn't count when they claim the suppressor only adds 4 inches.

To AAC, 4+4=4.

As to the above chart. It's amazing how they chose one of the lowest BC bullets available for the 6.8spc, to compare in a 300 yard comparison.

spot on. when madness subsides I will get a 6.8SPC

I've never understood all of the "haters" whenever a "new" cartridge comes out, particularly one designed for the AR platform. The 223 is a "niche" cartridge in many areas, and minds. The 300Blk seems like an interesting cartridge for a lot of applications, the 6.8 is probably the best all around option for an AR, but if you don't like it don't buy the frikking thing and leave it at that! Unless you have some real world experience with it...

6.8spc, .300BO and the Grendel are all fun/useful cartridges and the beauty of the AR platform is you can own all 3, use one lower and spend about as much as two decent bolt actions.

AAC does not intentionally mislead anyone on anything. We certainly never made a flash suppressor that adds almost four inches to a barrel. So let us start with that - show me what adapter we made which adds almost four inches to the barrel.



I happen to like the 85 TSX in 6.8. I could have also picked a higher-BC 300 BLK bullet, such as the 155 grain or the 175 grain - but did not pick the highest in either cartridge.

I like the 85 TSX as well, but it's a misleading example of 6.8spc 300 yard performance.

The 110-120 gr 6.8 bullets are much better choices, if one is comparing retained energy at 300 yards.

Using very conservative load data from Hornady and Nosler for the 120 sst and 110 Accubond, both show a 20%-25% increase in retained energy at 300 yards over the 85 TSX. And I should highlight, that's with load pressures well under SAAMI specs.

As to the AAC suppressor, to be fair, I should correct myself after doing a little more research. The 4" SPR M4 adapter does appear to have a setback past the threads and over a portion of the non threaded barrel, so it does not appear that the adapter itself adds 4" to the barrel.

However, I don't see how that set back comes anywhere close to reducing the 8.65" SPR M4, to only 4.9" beyond the rifle.

Mr. Silvers, I have studied the 300AAC considerably wanting to buy one for deer hunting. I agree that its probably the most useful suppressed sub sonic round on the planet, however it is just "OK" regards supersonic work. Yes people have shot and killed animals with the round, but so have I the same type animals with a 5.56. For a pure deer or pig hunting gun the 6.8 with 100 or 110 grain accubonds to my mind is a much better choice, and if the current madness had not occurred I was ready to buy a 6.8SPC. No matter how you "spin" it, a 1-7 or 1-8 twisted 30 cal says in bold capital neon letters "I am primarily designed for subsonic bullets".

This is obvious to anyone with a degree in physics or mechanical engineering (one of mine is in the former--what's yours?). Faster bullets simply break up more readily when striking something hard. There were articles about this in the 1950s when suburbia was expanding and people mistakenly thought that less-loud bullets were safer than louder ones.

At the risk of being accused of anecdotes, I once saw a 255 grain .45 Colt factory load ricochet almost 90 degrees backward after striking a bowling pin. I even recovered the bullet--deformed but in one piece. Try that with any lighter weight rifle bullet at 2000 fps or so.

Building Science. I would think an engineer would understand that there are far too many factors (Bullet construction, incident angle, substrate etc.) to make a blanket statement. I do however note that you don't cite any sources. Most glaringly I note that you assume a low angle of incidence which is at odds with shooting from an elevated position.

Enjoy shooting your loud, fast bullets.

If a lead bullet will ricochet upon hitting a hard surface at 90 degree angle of incidence then a jacketed lead bullet (which is better constructed) has a greater probability of ricocheting at this or any lesser angle. The only variables would then be (a) velocity and (b) hardness/elasticity of the object it hits. I have seen many SMKs ricochet off the butts at Camp; Perry if the shots are low. Their velocity is low subsonic (about 1300) at 1000 yards from a 30-06.

I have also seen rifle bullets ricochet at about a 45 degree angle of incidence upon hitting the backstop at a range I belonged to (Ashland Lake Gun Club, West Salem, Ohio), causing us to rebuild the range at great expense.

While working the pits at our local 200 yard range, you can see about one out of twenty ricochet upon hitting the impact area, but the hill behind it is so steep that they stay in the range.

So I will cite myself as an expert.

If you think you can shoot your baseball trajectory 220 grain bullets in populated areas and it's safe because you can't hear the shot, you are fooling yourself and endangering your neighbors. If you are shooting it in unpopulated areas, I cannot think of a single advantage to anything that drops 33" from 100 to 200 yards, let alone a wannabe pistol bullet.

If you want an education on ricochets, shoot tracers some time. It will open your eyes!

Shot a nice 8 pointer yesterday from a tree stand 100 yds from my back door. Subsonic 220 gr Outlaw State bullet. Killed the deer and didn't kill anybody. Think I will keep using them.

Oh no - this is very far from common knowledge, but the latest ballistic research is that the future of 308 for supersonic use is 1/7 or 1/8 twist. You will see that as a trend in a few years after it trickles down from the govt.

I will wait till I see it "spin" out from the government. I killed a nice sasquatch yesterday with my 223 but forgot my camera.

I find this hard to believe because there is no useful reason for such a twist rate with ordinary .308 bullets at supersonic velocities. If there were, the bench rest and/or Palma guys would have done it years ago.

Twist rates of 1:8 or faster are very common with .223 barrels but that's because long range target shooters want to shoot 80 grain .223 bullets. There are even some 1:6.5 twist barrels designed for shooting 90 grain .223 bullets.

Why would Palma guys and bench rest guys care about the terminal performance improvements of fast twist barrels? They only care about accuracy.

and are often limited to 155gr bullets!

Mike

I hazard to guess that accuracy is most important to those guys, so they don't use fast twist barrels? Or perhaps I am mistaken??

I am indeed befuddled why a faster twist rate then 1:12 would have any effect on terminal performance of .308 bullets of 155--168 grains. If it does, why didn't the Army use a faster twist rate with the M14 in 1957? Perhaps you could enlighten us.

The single and ONLY advantage and it is a huge one depending... is suppressed noise. Either you need/want it or you don't.

As to richochets, as Barry notes, want an education, shoot a bunch of tracers. COuld almost make one not want to ever fire another shot ever again...