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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60 |
But I would take anything provided by Mr. Silvers and AAC with a grain of salt. They believe marketing and honesty are contradictions in terms. Not just in regard to the .300BO, where I've had words with Mr. Silvers on stretching the truth on several occasions, but even their suppressors.
I was considering one of their suppressors recently and was amazed that their specs showed that it only added 4 inches to the rifle.
Then I went and looked at one in person and laughed when I realized that in the world of AAC, a suppressor that requires a proprietary adapter made by them, that adds almost 4 inches to the rifle barrel, doesn't count when they claim the suppressor only adds 4 inches.
To AAC, 4+4=4. AAC does not intentionally mislead anyone on anything. We certainly never made a flash suppressor that adds almost four inches to a barrel. So let us start with that - show me what adapter we made which adds almost four inches to the barrel. As to the above chart. It's amazing how they chose one of the lowest BC bullets available for the 6.8spc, to compare in a 300 yard comparison. I happen to like the 85 TSX in 6.8. I could have also picked a higher-BC 300 BLK bullet, such as the 155 grain or the 175 grain - but did not pick the highest in either cartridge.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
I like the 85 TSX as well, but it's a misleading example of 6.8spc 300 yard performance.
The 110-120 gr 6.8 bullets are much better choices, if one is comparing retained energy at 300 yards.
Using very conservative load data from Hornady and Nosler for the 120 sst and 110 Accubond, both show a 20%-25% increase in retained energy at 300 yards over the 85 TSX. And I should highlight, that's with load pressures well under SAAMI specs.
As to the AAC suppressor, to be fair, I should correct myself after doing a little more research. The 4" SPR M4 adapter does appear to have a setback past the threads and over a portion of the non threaded barrel, so it does not appear that the adapter itself adds 4" to the barrel.
However, I don't see how that set back comes anywhere close to reducing the 8.65" SPR M4, to only 4.9" beyond the rifle.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1 |
Mr. Silvers, I have studied the 300AAC considerably wanting to buy one for deer hunting. I agree that its probably the most useful suppressed sub sonic round on the planet, however it is just "OK" regards supersonic work. Yes people have shot and killed animals with the round, but so have I the same type animals with a 5.56. For a pure deer or pig hunting gun the 6.8 with 100 or 110 grain accubonds to my mind is a much better choice, and if the current madness had not occurred I was ready to buy a 6.8SPC. No matter how you "spin" it, a 1-7 or 1-8 twisted 30 cal says in bold capital neon letters "I am primarily designed for subsonic bullets".
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
Neither the 22 LR nor a high velocity varmint bullet are under discussion here. Please cite (other than anecdotal) your assertion that a slow bullet is any more prone to ricochet than a fast bullet. This is obvious to anyone with a degree in physics or mechanical engineering (one of mine is in the former--what's yours?). Faster bullets simply break up more readily when striking something hard. There were articles about this in the 1950s when suburbia was expanding and people mistakenly thought that less-loud bullets were safer than louder ones. At the risk of being accused of anecdotes, I once saw a 255 grain .45 Colt factory load ricochet almost 90 degrees backward after striking a bowling pin. I even recovered the bullet--deformed but in one piece. Try that with any lighter weight rifle bullet at 2000 fps or so.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 837
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 837 |
Building Science. I would think an engineer would understand that there are far too many factors (Bullet construction, incident angle, substrate etc.) to make a blanket statement. I do however note that you don't cite any sources. Most glaringly I note that you assume a low angle of incidence which is at odds with shooting from an elevated position.
Enjoy shooting your loud, fast bullets.
shhh. be vewy vewy quiet. i'm hunting deer. uhhh uhhh uhhhh.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
If a lead bullet will ricochet upon hitting a hard surface at 90 degree angle of incidence then a jacketed lead bullet (which is better constructed) has a greater probability of ricocheting at this or any lesser angle. The only variables would then be (a) velocity and (b) hardness/elasticity of the object it hits. I have seen many SMKs ricochet off the butts at Camp; Perry if the shots are low. Their velocity is low subsonic (about 1300) at 1000 yards from a 30-06.
I have also seen rifle bullets ricochet at about a 45 degree angle of incidence upon hitting the backstop at a range I belonged to (Ashland Lake Gun Club, West Salem, Ohio), causing us to rebuild the range at great expense.
While working the pits at our local 200 yard range, you can see about one out of twenty ricochet upon hitting the impact area, but the hill behind it is so steep that they stay in the range.
So I will cite myself as an expert.
If you think you can shoot your baseball trajectory 220 grain bullets in populated areas and it's safe because you can't hear the shot, you are fooling yourself and endangering your neighbors. If you are shooting it in unpopulated areas, I cannot think of a single advantage to anything that drops 33" from 100 to 200 yards, let alone a wannabe pistol bullet.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,806 |
If you want an education on ricochets, shoot tracers some time. It will open your eyes!
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 142
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 142 |
Shot a nice 8 pointer yesterday from a tree stand 100 yds from my back door. Subsonic 220 gr Outlaw State bullet. Killed the deer and didn't kill anybody. Think I will keep using them.
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60 |
No matter how you "spin" it, a 1-7 or 1-8 twisted 30 cal says in bold capital neon letters "I am primarily designed for subsonic bullets". Oh no - this is very far from common knowledge, but the latest ballistic research is that the future of 308 for supersonic use is 1/7 or 1/8 twist. You will see that as a trend in a few years after it trickles down from the govt.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1 |
I will wait till I see it "spin" out from the government. I killed a nice sasquatch yesterday with my 223 but forgot my camera. 
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
I find this hard to believe because there is no useful reason for such a twist rate with ordinary .308 bullets at supersonic velocities. If there were, the bench rest and/or Palma guys would have done it years ago.
Twist rates of 1:8 or faster are very common with .223 barrels but that's because long range target shooters want to shoot 80 grain .223 bullets. There are even some 1:6.5 twist barrels designed for shooting 90 grain .223 bullets.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 60 |
I find this hard to believe because there is no useful reason for such a twist rate with ordinary .308 bullets at supersonic velocities. If there were, the bench rest and/or Palma guys would have done it years ago. Why would Palma guys and bench rest guys care about the terminal performance improvements of fast twist barrels? They only care about accuracy.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075 |
and are often limited to 155gr bullets!
Mike
God, Family, and Country.
NRA Endowment Member
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,312 Likes: 1 |
I hazard to guess that accuracy is most important to those guys, so they don't use fast twist barrels? Or perhaps I am mistaken??
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,504 |
I find this hard to believe because there is no useful reason for such a twist rate with ordinary .308 bullets at supersonic velocities. If there were, the bench rest and/or Palma guys would have done it years ago. Why would Palma guys and bench rest guys care about the terminal performance improvements of fast twist barrels? They only care about accuracy. I am indeed befuddled why a faster twist rate then 1:12 would have any effect on terminal performance of .308 bullets of 155--168 grains. If it does, why didn't the Army use a faster twist rate with the M14 in 1957? Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,485 |
If a lead bullet will ricochet upon hitting a hard surface at 90 degree angle of incidence then a jacketed lead bullet (which is better constructed) has a greater probability of ricocheting at this or any lesser angle. The only variables would then be (a) velocity and (b) hardness/elasticity of the object it hits. I have seen many SMKs ricochet off the butts at Camp; Perry if the shots are low. Their velocity is low subsonic (about 1300) at 1000 yards from a 30-06.
I have also seen rifle bullets ricochet at about a 45 degree angle of incidence upon hitting the backstop at a range I belonged to (Ashland Lake Gun Club, West Salem, Ohio), causing us to rebuild the range at great expense.
While working the pits at our local 200 yard range, you can see about one out of twenty ricochet upon hitting the impact area, but the hill behind it is so steep that they stay in the range.
So I will cite myself as an expert.
If you think you can shoot your baseball trajectory 220 grain bullets in populated areas and it's safe because you can't hear the shot, you are fooling yourself and endangering your neighbors. If you are shooting it in unpopulated areas, I cannot think of a single advantage to anything that drops 33" from 100 to 200 yards, let alone a wannabe pistol bullet. The single and ONLY advantage and it is a huge one depending... is suppressed noise. Either you need/want it or you don't. As to richochets, as Barry notes, want an education, shoot a bunch of tracers. COuld almost make one not want to ever fire another shot ever again...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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