Just 2 simple questions.



(1) How many actually have lost a Quality Scope (Leupold or better) due to shooting from a Lead Sled.?

(2) How many have actually broken a Weather Stable Stock (Not Wood) due to shooting from a Lead Sled.?



Answers only need to pertain to the 2 above questions and not turn into comments about your manly ability to shoot 1000 full house rounds out of an Elephant Gun in your Tee Shirt while leisurely passing time on a sunny afternoon

Just the facts, thanks

never..either one..not a problem!

This.

My .243 broke the lead sled....

Actually, I've never used one.

My questions are obviously inspired by responses given to gahuntertom's post about these Lead Sled things


It's a direct question and I'd like to get a feel for the actual scope and stock destruction anyone has experienced due to the use of the Lead Sled.

I'm not talking about the Walmart blister pack scopes or the foolishness of plopping a wood stock in there. Heck,I've broke the wrist on a Winchester 1897 12 gauge by shooting from my shoulder (Wood ain't hard to break). No I am talking about an all weather type of stable stock (either laminated, fiberglass, carbon, etc).

I find it interesting that a few thousand 22 pound F-Class rifles, shooting a couple thousand rounds, don't seem to have the ill effects upon scopes that a similarly weighted Lead Sled is said to have.


So, let's have it guys...

Again...

Who here has actually blown out a "Quality Scope" (Leupold or better) or broke a "Weather Stable" stock (Laminate/Fiberglass/Carbon/Tupperwear) due to shooting in a Lead Sled.?

Just the facts..

Nope and nope.

I have repaired 3 or 4 laminated stocks that were damaged in a Lead Sled. The first had the rear swivel stud completely torn out. The butt support extension on the bottom came close to contacting the stud. When the recoil pad compressed from recoil the stud was torn right out of the stock. Two others developed tang splits, trigger web splits and recoil shoulder splits. These wre heavy recoiling rifles and were not partciularly well bedded before they were brought to me for repair. Two were Lapuas and one 378 WBY. I think there was a fourth but can't recall the specifics. No synthetics that have come to my attention. I have no idea how the users had the sleds weighted. I quit doing public stock work about 3 years ago so that`s the extent of my exposure to their effects.

Stocker,

Thank you for sharing these details.

Pretty obvious that this sloppy handling within the cradle (Butt Extension) of the Sled by the shooter in order to tear a sling stud out.


Okay, still waiting on those reports where synthetic stocks have been broken in the Sled... I've "heard" it's hell on stocks but now I can't get one single testimony where a quality synthetic stock has been broken. Anyone..?

Pics would be awesome


And where are all those guys that have had their good quality scopes broken by this destroyer of scopes..?

Let's hear about it.

I have seen 2 stocks broken on lead sleds. One a Ruger walnut stock and another a Tikka. Ruger was a 338WM and the Tikka a 30/06.

Thank you Scott..!

I have 400 plus rounds through my 500 Jeffery, 100 or so using a lead sled. My standard load is a 570g TSX or A-Frame at 2300 fps, but have gone as low as 2150 and as high as 2510 fps. I've been lucky, my Leupold 1.5-5x scope is still fine as is my pretty wooden stock. I only use the lead sled for load development or initial sight in, but am too wimpy to do those things without it. I started without and got an Epic bruise! If the scope breaks I'll send it back to Leupold. If the stock breaks I'll put in a synthetic and CeraKote the metal. In every cloud there's a silver lining or a lightning bolt waiting to hit you!

Repaired a Weatherby stock damaged by a Lead Sled. I hate the fuggin things.

A synthetic "Weatherby" Swampy..?

Like I said earlier. "wood ain't hard to break... I've broken it shooting from my shoulder.."

[/quote]


I'm a little off topic here but.... THAT is a beauty.!

FWIW,

I use a lead sled with 40 lbs of shot. A conservative estimate, I've probably shot 25 rifles chambered from 17 hebee to 458 lott off this rest, both wood and synthetic in the last two years with nary' a problem.


I usually remove the rear stud before I shoot. Easy and saves problems.

The front support is adujstable front to rear.

Mauser 98, 35 Whelen





A little pipe insulation that you can buy at Lowes, Home Depot or most hardware stores works fine for absorbing recoil.



Another tool, used judiciously, works fine.

Best

GWB

geedubya,

What about the Redfield.. how do you keep the cross-hairs and glass in that optic.?

I hear that the "tool" destroys scopes.

Don't know why splitting wood stocks "doesn't count" in your poll.

Being that most rifles are still stocked using the stuff.

For the record, I've seen a Sako 75 in 300WSM that split at the wrist whilst being shot on one.

Was shown a 700 stock in .300 WM that was split right behind the slot for the recoil lug. They took the rifle apart and discovered this after the groups started opening up.

Pretty much destroyed the laminated stock on a RMC 50 caliber flintlock. 6 pound rifle, 410 grain conical over 100 grains of Swiss FFFg in a lead sled with 2 bags on board. Should have known better, but I really wanted to shoot a bison with that rifle.

John Moses,

I eliminated wood stocks simply because I have split, cracked, and completely broken them while shooting them against my shoulder. (Wood ain't hard to break)
I have not split, cracked, or completely broken synthetic stocks by shooting them against my shoulder.

So, to keep all things equal, I want to see if those things (synth stocks) which have NOT broken against my shoulder are breaking when shot from the Lead Sled.

Hope that helps in the understanding as to why

This rifle was built by a fellow named Wayne Barnett. He was a long time gunsmith in the Pasadena, Texas area. I do believe this rifle was built in the eighties. I've owned it close to 10 years.

It has made at least a dozen trips to the range. Before I started using a lead sled, I used a similar rest and strapped it down to the bench with ratchet straps. I usually take 5 or 6 rifles to the range when I go and make at least a 1/2 day of it.

The old redfield seems to work fine in the field





I took it to the range last Sunday, two groups out of a clean barrel. First is with 225 gr Spitzers


The second is with 225 gr Nosler Accubonds



I'm using the Accubonds.

And a couple of adjustments to get ready for pokin' porkers this weekend.

Shot one, too far left, so back right a touch (no clicks on this scope)
Shot two, good, but up a touch just for grins.

Shot 3 is where I left off



I'm off to the lease tomorrow. See if I can't poke a hill country hoglet or two with it this weekend.

Best

GWB

I have been a regular shooter for well over 60 years and have never even SEEN a lead sled.

So then, It's safe to say that you've never broken a synthetic stock or blown a scope due to using one...

GWB,

Thanks for posting more pics, Great Hog.

Best to you on your hunt tomorrow..!

I hope you have success with that awesome 35, I too love my Whelen..!!!

358wsm,
Thanks for the kind words.
Had hoped to get away today but that didn't work out. Will stay through Monday though. Dove Season opens the 9/1 so I'm taking a shotgun, some bacon and some jalepenos. Hard to beat bacon wrapped, jalapeno stuffed dove breasts grilled over mesquite coals. Do a little varmint calling, maybe bust a hog or two. We also trap and snare hogs and that can be fun also. All and all, hoping to cure the symptoms of SDD (Shooting Deficit Disorder).

Best

GWB

If I said I didn't envy every aspect of that, more than just a little, I'd be lying.

We all should be so lucky.

How so Swampy, and why..?

Seriously, I've conducted a little Campfire poll here to gain honest information based upon experiences of members, and guess what.

Here's the facts that have come in so far..

(1) Not one report of any solid stock (other than wood which is often broken, split, or cracked when simply shot from the shoulder) being damaged.

(2) Not one report of a quality scope being damaged due to the Sled.

............Answer to #1...........No scopes lost!

Answer to #2..........Never damaged a stock.

Why?.........Because I have never used nor will I ever use any lead (pussy) sled.

If anyone needs a lead sled to enjoy bench shooting and/or to tighten up the groupings because of flinching, then that cartridge really isn`t for that individual.

Bigsqueeze,

That philosophy would also suggest to include that,

".... if anyone needs a recoil pad, a PAST pad, and even hearing protection to enjoy bench shooting and/or to tighten up the groups because of flinching, then that cartridge really isn't for that individual..."

............Well I`ll disagree with your analogy comparison.

Recoil pads are usually built in to the stock butt and come with the rifle. Slip on recoil pads and padded shooting vests are additional options for those who wish to own a heavier recoiling cartridge, which as aids will help with any recoil or flinching issues.

Compared to the simpler and far more convenient aids I mention above, lead sleds are bulky, inconvenient, a PIA to tote around, and do diminish imo the development of better shooting skills (eliminating bad habits) either with shooting positions or to correct flinching.

And regardless of whatever centerfire round is being fired, hearing protection should always be worn anyway.

Using a slip on pad, a shooting vest or both to correct flinching and to reduce felt recoil is all well and good. But if one has to use a lead sled to better enjoy bench shooting his particular cartridge, to reduce flinching and/or to achieve better groups, then that cartridge imo isn`t for that person.

I guess sand bags and shooting bags are for puzzies too? Only way to shoot is free handed or from the hip like the "dead man"
The sled is merely a rest if you choose to load it up with weight and use it as a recoil suppressor then take what ya get

And no to broken scope or stock but I don't load her up with weight

................Hey Georgie! I never mentioned anything about not using shooting bags, sand bags or a tripod. I use them.

Those are shooting rests which shouldn`t be equated entirely to a lead sled. A lead sled is not only a rest, but it is also a complete recoil nullifier for the most part.

And to suggest from my posts that I meant any type free hand shooting from the bench is idiocy on your part.

But anyway, getting back to the OP....

Put 20 rounds downrange from a bench with my 500 Jeffery without a sissy pad or other aid, and I guarantee you'll have either an epic bruise or flinch or both ...

............That`s why just about all of us including me don`t own and would not own a a 500 Jeffy.

For the heaviest recoiling bigs, then I suppose the puzzy sleds would have their place.

No, they are for people who actually want to touch their rifle when shooting it.

Sooooooooo Swampy, when it comes to "touching," what part of the firearm do the sand bags contact, that the sled doesn't..?

this this

I can scarcely touch the rifle in one of those Rube Goldberg contraptions.

Oh... I see. Thanks for the response.

I shoot mostly offhand, haven't used the sled since I settled on a load. I can still hit soda cans almost every time at 100 yards with my Jeff (used to be able to hit them at 200 offhand with my 270 before I got old and shaky lol). I practice offhand because I don't usually have a benchrest where I hunt and it hurts less. As far as sissy pads go, I think some of you aren't putting them on your shoulder!

And I think this is exactly how it needs to be done for those who are going to be hunting those rifles whether from a Sled, sand bags, or the jacket wadded up on the hood of the truck. That is, to find the load, get dialed in, get off the bench, get into field positions, and practice.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In keeping with the OP...

I've tried to get an accurate accounting of damages caused from use of the Sled.

The findings so far over the course of 3 days now, from our small sampling of 'fire members, are as follows;

(1) Number of stocks damaged (other than wood) = None.
(2) Number of Scopes damaged (Quality Glass) = None.

You cannot eliminate wood stocks.

He can do what he wants it's HIS poll...now go play with your own pole

Mostly 7-8 lb Wingmasters with 3 inch 12 gauge slugs.......but never a hitch using my buddies Sled for more than a decade.

2 cents

[/quote]............Well I`ll disagree with your analogy

Using a slip on pad, a shooting vest or both to correct flinching and to reduce felt recoil is all well and good. But if one has to use a lead sled to better enjoy bench shooting his particular cartridge, to reduce flinching and/or to achieve better groups, then that cartridge imo isn`t for that person. [/quote]

Sorry Sir, but I beg to differ....

My Dr. Recommended I buy a Lead Sled several year ago. Had a bad accident & cracked two vertebra in my lower back, & two in my neck.

Was heading to Colorado Elk hunting a couple of months later & the Lead Sled was my ONLY option on working up new loads for my 300 RUM. With 180 Partitions instead of my usual 200gr load.

Definately saved my old ass another trip to my neurosurgeon, & saved my Elk hunt that year.
Just goes to show the Lead Sled can & does have practical applications.

And as far as using it as a tool to un-learn your flinch, are you suggesting just keep shooting until your shoulder is black & blue and your flinch will somehow disappear ???

Everyone has a flinch from time to time no matter what caliber they are shooting.
A Flinch is your body's instinctive reaction to noise & recoil. We all have it, but we must teach ourself mentally to overcome our natural reaction to noise & pain.

Anyone with a flinch could possibly benefit from using a lead sled to re-train themselves mentally. Especially younger shooters, whom don't get to spend enough time shooting & training because of their urban environment they now grow up in.

Not everyone grew up ranching & shooting every day like I did. And I still catch myself flInching occasionally no matter how many thousands of rounds I've put down range.

............Well I`ll disagree with your analogy

Using a slip on pad, a shooting vest or both to correct flinching and to reduce felt recoil is all well and good. But if one has to use a lead sled to better enjoy bench shooting his particular cartridge, to reduce flinching and/or to achieve better groups, then that cartridge imo isn`t for that person. [/quote]

Sorry Sir, but I beg to differ....

My Dr. Recommended I buy a Lead Sled several year ago. Had a bad accident & cracked two vertebra in my lower back, & two in my neck.

Was heading to Colorado Elk hunting a couple of months later & the Lead Sled was my ONLY option on working up new loads for my 300 RUM. With 180 Partitions instead of my usual 200gr load.

Definately saved my old ass another trip to my neurosurgeon, & saved my Elk hunt that year.
Just goes to show the Lead Sled can & does have practical applications.

And as far as using it as a tool to un-learn your flinch, are you suggesting just keep shooting until your shoulder is black & blue and your flinch will somehow disappear ???

Everyone has a flinch from time to time no matter what caliber they are shooting.
A Flinch is your body's instinctive reaction to noise & recoil. We all have it, but we must teach ourself mentally to overcome our natural reaction to noise & pain.

Anyone with a flinch could possibly benefit from using a lead sled to re-train themselves mentally. Especially younger shooters, whom don't get to spend enough time shooting & training because of their urban environment they now grow up in.

Not everyone grew up ranching & shooting every day like I did. And I still catch myself flInching occasionally no matter how many thousands of rounds I've put down range. [/quote].........I didn`t mention or include any medical conditions where a lead sled would certainly be more beneficial. In your case and for medical reasons, then a lead sled is needed to fire the round you wish for big game.

But for those who are in good medical condition, I will still stand by my opinions. I believe that bench flinching can be solved without using a lead sled. I`ve done it and know other who have done so as well. And we aren`t exactly shootin pea shooters.

So let's just ignore the fact that the wrist of these rifles was shattered by a Lead Sled. Only a democrat could think like that.

I'm not saying that lead sleds aren't hard on stocks and scopes, they are. We don't use a sled for the 375 Weatherby except for sight in, because we don't need it, same goes for my older son's LH M70 in 416 Rem. I started out shooting the 500 Jeff "like a man", no sissy pad, no sled, no slip on recoil pad for initial sight in and load development. I quit at 18 rounds (all I had loaded). When my buddy and went to lunch, I suggested somewhere that had beer, because I could already feel the swelling. Here's a lovely pic to go with your breakfast or lunch, and don't tell me I was holding the rifle wrong, I've been shooting rifles for 40 years. It got significantly worse over the next three days. The bruise you see was the morning after, the blood migrated up and over eventually the bruise covered the entire right side of my chest and my right arm below the elbow. That's why I bought a lead sled Swampy. Feel free to come visit and put 20 downrange with my 500 Jeff from a bench wearing a T-shirt like I did with no sissy pads or slip on recoil pad and tell me how tough you are. I shoot the 500 Jeff that way offhand now, but not from a bench (just a T-shirt or a light jacket) because I practice like I hunt. It's my favorite rifle to shoot offhand, which I do everytime I go to the range, but I won't shoot it from a bench without the sled.

You see Swampy, when you are trying to conduct a scientific experiment using comparisons, you MUST keep all the variables the same.

THAT is elementary, and no matter how ignorant of this fact you might want to appear, you know it is true.

Not only can I eliminate wood stocks, for the sake of real science, I must eliminate them.


I know that I have explained the reasoning behind this to you (and others) before, but I am happy to do it again.

Here goes; "Wood stocks break, split, and crack when fired from the shoulder - Synthetic stocks do not break, split, or crack when fired from the shoulder."

You cannot use a variable that is known to fail outside of the test medium as a viable variable within the test medium, if wooden stocks did not break, split, and crack when fired out of the sled, we could then include them.

See, so simple that even (you) a Swampman can get it

Sorry Sir, but I beg to differ....

My Dr. Recommended I buy a Lead Sled several year ago. Had a bad accident & cracked two vertebra in my lower back, & two in my neck.

Was heading to Colorado Elk hunting a couple of months later & the Lead Sled was my ONLY option on working up new loads for my 300 RUM. With 180 Partitions instead of my usual 200gr load.

Definately saved my old ass another trip to my neurosurgeon, & saved my Elk hunt that year.
Just goes to show the Lead Sled can & does have practical applications.

And as far as using it as a tool to un-learn your flinch, are you suggesting just keep shooting until your shoulder is black & blue and your flinch will somehow disappear ???

Everyone has a flinch from time to time no matter what caliber they are shooting.
A Flinch is your body's instinctive reaction to noise & recoil. We all have it, but we must teach ourself mentally to overcome our natural reaction to noise & pain.

Anyone with a flinch could possibly benefit from using a lead sled to re-train themselves mentally. Especially younger shooters, whom don't get to spend enough time shooting & training because of their urban environment they now grow up in.

Not everyone grew up ranching & shooting every day like I did. And I still catch myself flInching occasionally no matter how many thousands of rounds I've put down range. [/quote].........I didn`t mention or include any medical conditions where a lead sled would certainly be more beneficial. In your case and for medical reasons, then a lead sled is needed to fire the round you wish for big game.

But for those who are in good medical condition, I will still stand by my opinions. I believe that bench flinching can be solved without using a lead sled. I`ve done it and know other who have done so as well. And we aren`t exactly shootin pea shooters. [/quote]

Okay, we can agree to disagree. I know it can be done, I'm just saying it might not be the best option for everyone. Flinching can be solved without a lead sled. I'm merely saying it could be used as a viable option.
And I value the opinions of most others here on 24CF, as I do yours. I read the Forum daily, & if I can't learn something new every week from other members, I'm doing something wrong.

Put many rounds through 378, 338-378, 338 Lapua IM, on my lead sled and no problems. If your breaking stocks and scopes it's probably due to having too much weights on the system.If it's good enough for the Marines shooting 50's in Muzzy land it's all the proof I need.

The damage I've seen was done without weights. It's just too much stress on the wrist of the stock. A rifle has to move freely. Plus what's the point if you aren't even touching the rifle. You may as well rig up something to pull the trigger too. Maybe you could sit in the truck and pull the trigger with your laptop.

You have seen these I hope....

http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/past/

You can't eliminate broken wood stocks....

Simple google search turned up a McMillian and a Remington Mountain Rifle (not wood) that were broken on Lead Sleds. Hey they are your guns......I wouldn't risk one of mine.

WTF do you care? The man asked us to answer a question based on personal experience according to his particulars flawed or not


I did a google search and ten people saw the Boogie man last night too...

Just trying the help those who might consider using one not to ruin their rifles. Their use should void any warranty.

The rifle does move freely and is against your shoulder. Obviously you've never used or seen one. Set up your long range heavy hitter from 100 yds -- all the way to 1000 yds with 250-300 grain bullets, should take you most of the day and probably 80-100 rounds then come back and tell us how your flinch was at the end of the day and how sore your shoulder was. They aren't meant to be used all the time Sherlock, they're meant to set up a new rig, new scope, new bullets, different loads,for rifles that kick hard and shoot long ranges. Of course if you shoot a 30-30 you don't need one.

The Lead Sled will end civilization.

That's funny right there, Thanks JM

--------------------------------------------------------------


I've got no dog in the fight concerning the Sled.

I'm simply trying to get to the facts as best as I can based upon experiences had here by those who have/do use one.


So far, based on the experiences shared here at the Campfire, Quality Scopes and Synthetic Stocks simply are NOT being damaged due to the use of the Sled.

Man, that ole Jeffery really did kick your azz...

DF

Yup, because I didn't respect her... "Baby" and I know each other better now. Took her to the range today and hit the 10 ring with each of five shots at 100 yards offhand. Didn't shoot it once from the bench lol ...

1)Nope
2)Nope

An RSM stock split with one rifle and a nice Diavari went south on another. Stock was replaced and the Diavari was repaired. Quite frankly though, I don't see lead sleds in use too often outside of maybe some accuracy testing or load development. Most I know would not use the lead sled for zeroing or practice because odds are holding the rifle down into the device would effect your resulting POI compared to other techniques and it is not realistic for trigger time. I don't think the device itself is the issue, but I do think its misuse can be a problem when too much weight is added to quell recoil. It becomes pure physics if you lock down and restrict the rifle too much as the forces are dumped back into the rifle. If you don't think this can damage a stock, scope or mounts, try shooting your rifle with the butt rested against a tree and report back on the results after a few hundred rounds.

As for the 500 Jeffery, I don't see any elephants in my future but I do see a Cape Buffalo or two left in me before its done. For those, recoil from the Jeffery makes me feel good about my choice to use a 9.3x62

Gary, Thanks for the video..!

I agree with you Gary, anything that bears against the stock as it recoils will increase, (by way of physics) stress/compression to the materials...

....much like a short stocky shooter laying prone behind a bi-pod laden rifle would add more stress/compression than a tall lanky shooter would while standing and firing off hand.
....................................................................

Very good to finally hear of a scope failing, whether the Diavari's failure was due to the Sled is questionable though, isn't it.?

I'd like to hear about how the physics of a Sled vs a Shoulder would be more stressful upon a Scope... curious about this dynamic.
---------------------------------------------------------------



As for the RSM (a wooden stock), I remember you sharing with us earlier that;

"...keep in mind that most will crack in the thin webbing between the mag box and trigger inlets. This thin webbing is the only material holding together the stock sidewalls between the front and rear action screws. You may consider adding either a hidden internal cross pin reinforcement, or a through and through external cross pin reinforcement at this location. I've yet to see an RSM without this added reinforcement survive long before this webbing area split from the forces of recoil pushing the sidewalls out."

Based upon your experiences, it seems that stock was bound to fail without any help from a Sled

I read this entire thread. Swampman and bigsqueeze seem very anti-lead sled and I'm not sure why even after reading their posts which to me are based on their perceptions more so than their experiences. I'll base my words on my experiences. I have used a lead sled extensively for initial sight in of slug guns. They kick like a mule and the sleds help alot when you're sighting in several. You may have to fine tune the scope slightly when shooting from the shoulder after but that is very infrequent. I have a DFT version and it is overkill. The original lead sled would be fine for most folks application. It saves a person from the bruises shown in the photos in this thread. How that cannot be beneficial is beyond me. I have heard or more distinctly, read, of scopes breaking and stocks cracking from a sled. Very possible. Neither has ever happened to me and I have had some guys use some pretty cheap scopes on slug guns that you would think may be a good candidate for breakage. Not all gun stocks are well laid out and many are anaemic in the grip area. Had a gun stock maker call that to my attention recently on a rifle the folks are asking $4500 for. He said if it were ever dropped it'd be a custom "two piece stock". I was looking at the beauty of the wood and his experienced eye went directly to the weak spot. If it can happen to be laid out that way on a rifle of that stature, I'm sure it happens with every big name manufacturer. My experience with lead sleds have been positive, they are a tool that when used as intended, is an asset not a liablility.