I want my bolt locked down when I put my bolt action rifle on safe. Why is it manufactures make rifles that do not lock the bolt down when the safety is on? Is it really a lawyer thing? It keeps me from buying rifles that won't lock the bolt down.

Ok

Three-position is my preference, but doesn't drive my choice in rifles, just another raisin in the cookie.

Be glad when hunting season gets here and stops all the introspection.

Why? As long as the trigger is safe I couldn’t care less whether the bolt is locked. That feature doesn’t even rate a consideration to me.

I've had brush flip a bolt open, and others have supposedly lost bolts that way. I also prefer being able to unload the chamber with the trigger or striker blocked. Lastly, I prefer the Mauser-like safeties that lift the striker off the trigger rather than just block it.

It is so you can unload an unfired round with the rifle in a safe condition. Some mfgs lock the trigger, some the firing pin, and some the bolt as well as one of the others. Sounds like you found the solution.

I prefer the bolt locked <because> I was used to it before it became an issue.

I've never had anything to raise the handle ***MUCH LESS*** drag the bolt OUT. I'm not sure that's possible. I don't think I've ever handled a rifle that did not have 'some' bolt release to prevent the bolt coming out of the action.

I have both kinds of rifles today and it's not that big of a deal to me but I prefer the bolt to lock on safe.


Jerry

I bought a NULA two p[osition three funtion safety from Brownell's for my Rem 660. It works great.

www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/safety-parts/safeties/remington-600-700-3-function-safety-prod13788.aspx?avs%7cMake_3=Remington

I'm exactly opposite and HATE the lock down feature.

I forgot one time and stripped the locking pin part way off of a Savage 340.

Like someone said, not locking the bolt allows you to unload the chamber while the safety is on, rather than doing it with a live round in a cocked chamber with the safety set on fire.

Okanagan,

Unloading the chamber is the reason so many companies use 2-position safeties that don't lock down the bolt: They can get sued if the safety has to be off to cycle the bolt, and somebody inadvertently pulls the trigger while they're running rounds through the chamber during unloading. (I've never understood why so many shooters feel they need to chamber every round, all the way, when unloading a rifle, but many do.)

The other factor is that 3-position safeties are more expensive than 2-position safeties,

To me, the issue of whether or not a safety incorporates a bolt lock feature and the issue of failure of the bolt stop (resulting in a lost bolt) arerelated but separate (mostly). Ilike safeties which directly lock the striker back and don't really care whether or not they lock the bolt down. Bolt stops which have to be pulled out to release the bolt are less likely to be tripped accidently than are stops which are pushed to release. One of the best but somewhat intricate safety mechanisms is the one on the Lee Enfield. The P14 safety is even better. Rugged, with a super-strong bolt lock.
Bolt stops like the Mauser, P14, and Springfield are ulikely to ever drop a bolt. Again, the Lee Enfield system is pretty foolproof. In the end, I've never lost a bolt and never had the safety disengaged by accident. Kind of a non-issue, I guess. GD

Hence Weatherby Mark V rifles are my first choice. Bolt locked on safe, sear disengaged, easy to manipulate with gloves, quiet, very hard to inadvertently knock off safe to fire. Happy Trails

It is a lawyer thing. They don’t want to get sued when some mental giant flips the safety off and touches off a round when unloading the rifle. I’ve had the bolt come open multiple times on rifles that don’t lock the bolt. I’ve never lost a bolt but can see how it could happen on a rifle with a cheesy bolt stop like Remingtons.

I like it locked closed too. I guess my rifles are about half and half

I had one of the early Remingtons which locked the bolt when the safety was on. I then modified the safety so it no longer locked the bolt. Have never dropped a bolt out of a rifle with this system. There are different systems out there, you will just have to buy one that works the way you like.

Jim

As I suspected some want a locked bolt and many don't care. I only know one guy who lost a bolt and he did it going up a mountain side in one of Alaska's legendary alder patches. He discovered it was missing after about 4 hours of fighting through the alders. He had slung his rifle to keep both hands free. Fortunately his buddy still had a functioning rifle.

I know I have locked my bolt down on and empty chamber when pushing through the alders after having a bolt come open, but it stayed in the rifle.

Put me down for locked.
Have had bolt get lifted enough to prevent firing twice.
There are two here that don't lock,
really don't plan to ever make it three.

Matter of fact, been thinking of making a Model 7 243 into a 308.
If I find a good take-off it's getting a 3-position put on at the same time.

The perfect whitetail rifle then,

for awhile anyway.

I want the bolt locked when the safe is on, like others here, and for the same reasons. It is what I am used to, and it prevents the bolt being knocked enough that the rifle won't fire when I want it to, or worse still, dropping open and losing a round.

I see no good reason for having a safety that allows you to open the action to unload, while still on safe. If you can't open the breech without inadvertently pulling the trigger you have no business with a firearm. I'm not much of a fan of typical three-position safeties either.

Dan,
I always hated the need to off safe to unload.
Until I got a 700 that didn't lock the bolt, now
I know better.

Interesting how different people's ideas on this are.
Often, where and how one hunts plays into these things.
People only think of their experiences, and then transfer that
knowledge to places where it may not fit.

When I look at feeders and tripod blinds, I assume certain things about that kind of hunting.
I bet if I did it, I would find I was wrong more than right

POS 700s, AFTER the lawyers figured it was easier and cheaper than to fix the fail on fire safety. Like you, I simply won't even consider a rifle whose safety does not lock the bolt.

Contrary to your opinion there seems to be millions who like the POS (sic) m700s.

Jim

There's just no telling why millions of people do what they do, like voted for Trudeau perhaps?

Another thought.
I started reading about people hunting with an empty chamber years ago.
I thought, "WTF". I had never even considered such a thing.
Then I thought "okay, these guides have to hunt with people they don't know, everyday."
It's a safety thing in those circumstances.

Then I come here, and find people who empty chamber by choice, when alone.
I don't care what they do, it's definitely safe, so go for it.
My deer kill would have been much smaller if I hunted that way,
but, they don't hunt where, and how, I hunt.64

It's a balance thing, everything has risks, we try to balance them as we see fit.

So how many got away from you when you hunted with an empty chamber?

If I'm moving, climbing through alder patches, the hammer is dropped on an empty chamber.

I almost always hunt with an empty chamber, IF I'm transiting from or to a stand. There are situations however that do call for a loaded chamber and in Africa, that is the rule for the most part.

I will admit the campfire has changed my behavior about carrying hot in the chamber. Even alone, but especially now that I have kids involved.

This is my least favorite feature about my favorite rifle: Cooper. It freaks me out when the rifle is on pack or sling in rough country and the bolt slips wide open. It has happened more than once.

Yeah ----------- because they work! I am ONLY 1 but I've had a BUNCH of 700s and still have several.

NOT ONE PROBLEM!

IF - IF you know what you're doing, the triggers are easy to adjust to preference. AFTER I learned how, I adjusted every trigger for travel and weight of pull. Not NARY a problem.

Jerry

None, because I have never 'intentionally' hunted an 'empty' chamber.

All I can say is that on many occasions IF I'd had to chamber a round --- the deer would be gone. There isn't enuff time - sometimes.


I said, "intentionally" because I remember ONCE when I was thru hunting, I opened the bolt - W T H ? no round loaded.
I AND others have had deer to move off immediately when they 'heard' some small click or metallic noise. I've never had any B A, Lever, or Pump that you can load a cartridge W/O making noise.

Each to Their Own.

Jerry

I usually walk in and out in the dark so I keep the chamber empty then. I also keep the chamber empty with safety on when climbing up or down from a stand or crossing a fence or other obstacles. Inadvertent discharges are a result of lack of training and familiarity with the weapon usually coupled with irresponsible behavior. Bolt locked or not, personal choice. Happy Trails

Missed shots when deer appeared near a vehicle or the house. That really doesn't count.


I really don't have an empty chamber during shooting hours.
If I am crossing a fence or some obstacle that causes increased concern it will be.
But even for fences, I lay the gun down under the fence, unloading it is not really a big deal.
If my daughter is with me, we unload, and hold the others gun.

The places where I might most like a chamber empty, are the places I am most likely to use it quick.
Unload it, and I may as well just carry my revolver.
It's loaded too.

Like someone else said Happy Trails.
The empty chambered hunting gun is a good thing in my book.
It just doesn't work for me, mostly.

I like to run through the woods with a round in the chamber and my finger on the trigger while carrying scissors in the other hand.

I hope you have insect repellent on,
the ticks have been bad.

Just because you do something different than the majority doesn't necessarily make you right.

Jim

I don't have nor will I ever have a bolt action action rifle that does not have the capability to lock down the bolt. CP.

Sorry, but why be two-faced in front of your daughter? If it is safer and you want her doing that, what will you say when she asks why?

For emphasis, I have never seen anyone claiming "perfect muzzle control" exhibit anything better than "woefully inadequate muzzle control."

DEPENDS ?? in Northern Minnesota where the timber wolf population is out of control ,I believe its only a matter of time when someone gets attack by a wolf and if its me my rifle will be loaded,i have had them follow me to my stand in the dark at a distance and that is kinda creepy,when you flash the light and see those beady eyes move`n thru the trees. if its a warm fall bears are still active too so ya my rifle is loaded move`n thru the tamarack swamp. hunting deer I use a Ruger #1 so its easy to load and unload for safety,even when I am out west for deer season I still just use my Ruger # 1. but if I hunt with a bolt action rifle I prefer a lock downed bolt by the safety, in the past if safety did not lock bolt down I have had it open up and the cartridge did fall out,mostly when I have a pack on which I always wear in the mountains,when I walk sometimes many miles.

Wolf attacks are incredibly rare... incredibly...

Damn it, man, not while chewing gum I hope...

Or voted for Trump?

Tom

yes wolf attacks are very rare but I knew a guy who never reported it but he did get attack by a wolf but did not get hurt bad.the other thing is here in Minnesota these liberals have protected these wolves so well, wolves here in Minnesota no longer fear man and are coming into yards more eating pets,killing cows wounding other farm animals including cows,some animals disappear nobody knows what has happened to them ? its very out of control now and I don`t plan on being on the list. here in the upper 1/3 of Minnesota we have now between 3,000 - 4,000 wolves even the famous David Mech says Minnesota has way to many wolves. hopefully with President Trumps new supreme court pick will help with this liberal foolishness !

I tried empty chamber for a couple years when hunting with family. I never got a single shot off. Heavy brush, short range, split second shots or no shots at all. Hunting alone, figure about 3 chances for aimed shots out of 10 buck sightings. It's pretty close to jump shooting quail with an empty gun, shells in your vest, not in your hand. Might as well stay home and watch the NFL, whatever that is.

Tom

Okay I have a Tikka and if I leave it cocked I can lock the bolt down with the safety but the spring in the bolt is compressed . If I leave it uncocked the safety doesn't work and the bolt can cycled. I always leave it uncocked to so the spring won't be compressed. What do you all do ?

So in short, you are guessing. Compelling argument, really.

Jwall I expect nothing different from, because he's a fugging idiot.

I used to hunt all the time with one in the chamber but no more. In the last few years we've had three fatalities in CO in situations where people lost muzzle control with a round in the chamber. One was a son who shot his father when the sling on his elk rifle came loose, the rifle fell from his shoulder and he grabbed for it. One was a client who shot a guide while crossing a shale slide. One was a grandson who shot himself while duck hunting with his father and grandfather. He was outside the blind, retrieving a downed duck in thick brush.

So my rule of thumb is, any time I might lose muzzle control like crossing a shale slide, I unload the chamber. What it comes down to for me is these two questions: What have I lost by not having one in the chamber, and what have I gained?

What I've gained is absolute safety. What I've lost is maybe the 1.5 seconds it takes to chamber a round. And if I'm on a shale slide for example, I'm not taking a shot until I get to more stable footing anyway.

Like you said, You are civil.

And a LIAR to boot.

Jerry

Yep, can't give exact stats on what never happened.
Do know that I have had many deer appear, and I didn't manage to get the sights on them before they spooked.
Stands to reason that some number of those I shot real close would not have taken the noise and movement.
I have shot several that were literally jump shot. Under 50 yards, jumped up and ran.

It's like I have said. I hunt from the ground, mixed cover. Against a tree, standing where I stopped walking, or walking.
I don't have shooting lanes, feeders, or any gun rest. Shots are usually offhand, resting on a tree if possible.
Mostly, a shot is taken in seconds, or not at all.

I have, on the couple occasions that I used someone's stand, opened the bolt so all I had to do was close it.
Have heard too many stories of guns falling out of stands and shooting someone.

Yes, Jorge, Remington rifles.

I have never thot about keeping count. I've had many close encounters w/deer over the yrs. and I'd never have gotten off a shot.

That's not all by any means but I never know when I'll encounter a deer I want to shoot.

When I HUNT.......the rifle is HOT.

Jerry

Everywhere, across recorded time, total number of wolf attacks fit on a single hand. Pretty amazing you would bump into one unrecorded victim...

You are being an argumentative idiot.

Guns are dangerous, so are chainsaws.
There are those who refuse to own or use either due to risks.
I enjoy using and benefitting from the abilities of both.
The risk is managed to access the benefit.

And I assume you are posting about fences.
When alone, I don't have the concern of another person,
and I can't possibly hand my rifle across the fence to myself.

Go argue wood finish, you appear knowledgeable there.

I much prefer a lockdown bolt.

Wow!

But as a former guide and someone with more than a bit of experience in the field I feel my opinion is better than a guess.

I see no viable point in your sidestepping, but that is certainly your option... was only trying to make a point that a number of other fathers have had their eyes opened with.

We must be on different pages somehow.
I mentioned my daughter because she is pretty much the only person I hunt with anymore.
If you and I were hunting together, I would assume we would cross a short obstacle that way.
It's just that alone, I am comfortable laying a loaded rifle under a fence, parallel to it, crossing,
then picking it up. If I had to carry it, unload the chamber.

No doubt there are circumstances where you could hunt with no round in the chamber, such as where you are using binos or a scope to find game, and not expecting that you might walk into it. There are other times when having the chamber empty makes good sense, such as when you have the rifle on a sling, or you put it down to cross a fence or something like that. When I am not actively hunting, such as when I sling the rifle for whatever reason, or go to put it down to cross a fence, I clear the chamber.

However when I am actively hunting I have the chamber loaded, rifle on safe. I hunt a range of animals from rabbits, foxes, pigs, goats, to deer and bigger animals, and in a range of locations, but almost invariably by walking them up. There are any number of times where I have bounced critters at close range, and would not have had a chance if the chamber was empty, either because chambering a round would have spooked them or because they were already spooked and I had a narrow window to drop a critter intent on getting away.

I have carried that way for decades, and also carried cocked and locked in my years of military service. It doesn't bother me a bit if people want to hunt with chamber empty, but it doesn't work for me.

There are worse habits than carrying a rifle cocked and locked though, or chamber empty for that matter. For example, I have seen people ease springs on a loaded chamber, and carry that way, which gives me the horrors, especially since I have witnessed NDs occurring that way. There are also those who have a round up the spout and the bolt closed but bolt handle partly raised, just enough to stay in place. This seems particularly popular in NZ. The problem is that a touch on the bolt knob - bump it against your gear or a branch as you push through brush - and it drops and is ready to fire, and with some rifles if you pull the trigger (or snag it) the bolt will snap closed and the rifle will fire too.

Thanks Dan - you have exactly described the situation/s I have encountered.

I NO longer hunt from Tree Stands or "shooting houses" we called them QUAD pods. I hunt ON my feet and either Still Hunting or Stalking.

When I'm HUNTING the rifle is HOT. Since 1972, when I began deer hunting, I have NOT had a single Accidental Discharge of a firearm.


Jerry

I like the three position safety with bolt lock down and of course safety on unloading. I have missed shots due to an empty chamber, bolt partially open, and bolt falling out.

The latter was caused by a bad spring on the bolt stop on a 700 but the bolt dropped out several times always seeming to land in sugar sand. The sand got into the safety of the Jewel trigger and it may need to go back to the manufacturer to fix now. Just polished it up and will mount on another rifle soon to see.

Is there a formula for pizzing matches based on how long the hunting seasons have been closed? Seem like JB's one quarter rule could apply in that the pizzing increases 25% for each month between seasons.

Tejano

Thnx for explaining how your bolt ‘fell out’. I have been skeptical to say the least about claims of that happening.

As you know there is ‘some’ type of latch/catch to prevent bolts from coming out of actions. Thnx for your explanation.


Jerry

Hot vs cold chamber? It depends. The International Hunter Education Association does not recommend cold chambers except when traversing rugged terrain, crossing fences, ditches, or climbing into elevated stands. And obviously when in vehicles or structures. I've been teaching hunters ed classes since 1986. That is the method I teach and practice. As a rule the chamber is hot, but when conditions change I go cold.

I prefer the 3 position safeties that will allow me to lock the bolt down and still work as a trigger block when loading/unloading. But most of my rifles have 2 position safeties that do not lock the bolt. It isn't a deal killer either way. I've had the bolt come open once and I lost 1 round of ammo while walking with my rifle slug on an easy trail. I have no idea how it happened, but it wasn't that big of a deal.

MR.SITKA from Alaska what makes you think you know what`s true ? well you don`t the old guy I know,he did get knock down by wolf but wolf not bite thru his thick coat,wolf just ran away.also I had another friend while coyote hunting had 3 wolves attack his dog and he was close enough he ended up braking a rifle stock on the head of a wolf to save his dog ! yes here in Northern Minnesota we have plenty wolves ,just because you live in Alaska doesn`t mean you know what happens here in Northern Minnesota !

What tribe are you from?

This requires multiple FUG Ups but it did happen. Also have had quirky results with saddle scabbards but didn't involve loaded chambers.

So did the outfitter I guided for in the 80's. We rented horses to intrepid nimrods. One of which, DID have a loaded chamber in a scabbard. Rifle went off and shot the horse in the right hock. Horse had enuff presence of mind to dump the azzhat when it happened. Had to be put down. Real expensive lesson for our live-chambered/safety-off dimwad.

Guys I’ve never made a horse back - pack in - hunt BUT

Any hunter w/ONE brain cell should know — Empty Chamber ! !

I coined this phrase some years back.

Stupidity is a Bottomless Pit. — Feel Free to use it.


Jerry

Ya think?

Never said anything was true or untrue, simply pointed out how incredibly rare such events are... and they are. And that would be the only known wolf attack on a human in Minnesota.

When it comes to safety I personally prefer yes:no answers to safety questions and tend to choose the safer routes when there is no clear reason to not do it.

Painting with shades of gray makes it easier for an obvious idiot to fail to see the obvious issue with a hot chamber in a scabbard. But I have seen dumber get away with far worse...

Not true. My plumber's uncle's doctor's wife's cousin was also attacked.

actually when my good friend`s dog was in trouble with these 3 wolves and friend rushed in on of those wolves,one wolf did grab his arm and shaken it and then his dog called big dog jumped that wolf , his female dang near died that day from wounds from those 3 wolves but when big dog got there and my friend there was one heck of a fight,so maybe that could be considered a attack, those wolves did not run. now days when bear hunters in Wisconsin dog hunt for bears some have lost dogs to wolves,wolves hear dogs barking come running in and eat the dogs,the lineman I worked with for 10 years his son and friend lost 4 dogs in one day found the collars and one dog head,radio collars were left all over in that woods while on a bear dog hunt ,it has happened in Minnesota too. like I said it won`t be long and some one will probably be killed by a wolf,just ask the sheriff in Kitson county,Mn., these wolves follow to many people in the bigger woods here in Minnesota now days,Minnesota wolves have lost there fear of man.

Again, what tribe are you from?

Sitka deer can't even top this one........

That’s some funny [bleep] !

This spring I was watching these critters mow their lawn


When the big bad woof appeared and et all three. He was hunting for dogs but had griz for supper.Women and children will be next if we don’t do something!believe me I know a guy.


Moral to the story, keep yer bolt locked down!

A few years ago I was hunting black tail deer on Afognak Island, Alaska. My wie and guide were with me. The island is rife with brown bears, but our chambers were empty. Jumped a black tail , snapped the rifle up and fired when it hit my shoulder...dead deer. My wife said I worked the bolt so fast and fired that the deer only went about 20 yards before I shot him. Years of practice and you get pretty good at it.


If I am sitting in a ambush situation I do like to keep one up the spout as it is a bit noisy trying to slip one in, especially in a close range situation.


lefty C

Well, he's just got to be an Injun, don't he?. Who else could talk in 60's cowboy/injun movie slang like that? Huh?
Him heap big talk with forked-tongue. Name should be changed from pete to Big Chief Walking Eagle. Because he's too full of chit to fly......

Lmao . Walking eagle!!

But yes Pete , if you unload hounds in the middle of a wolf pack you’re gonna have a bad day, m’kay?

You sound like the guy in the commercial looking for a lawyer........"but he didn't call me back".




Jerry

Yes, but he was walking naked with a backpack full of rotting fish he had dynamited out of a lake a week previous. And the Wolf only took the back pack. I hate it when these threads turn to bullschitt and the whole of it isn't included.

Huntsman22, are you asking what tribe I am from?

I am by almost all standards, descended from Norwegian and German ancestry, unless deceased relatives lied. So I believe that makes me a Caucasian. For the last 43 years I have been married to a wonderful gal who is an Alaskan native born in Tanana on the Yukon River. My family came to Alaska in 1965 and built a home in the Slana River country near the Wrangell mountains, a beautiful and remote place at the time.

Back to safeties. In 53 years of Alaskan hunting I seldom carry a round in the chamber, unless by myself, sitting on a water hole late at night waiting for a moose or creeping a good trail early in the morning. I also don't want any one walking behind me with a chambered rifle. A friend of mines brother was shot in the back of his head by his hunting buddy on a brown bear hunt.

I grew up hunting with a scoped Springfield 03A3 and the military safety could not be engaged because of the scope, never bothered me or cost me an animal.. Following up or closing in on a bear is a good time to chamber around and top of the magazine on a bolt gun, in my opinion.

I almost always hunt with a Model 70 and never lost and opportunity at any Alaskan critter because I had to chamber a round. Maybe close cover deer hunting in the "states" is different.

I have had a bit of exposure to guns in my life time and all of my holstered handguns are carried in "Condition one". Glocks, 1911's, Browning Hi Power, revolvers. etc. They are carried hot when holstered.
My bolt action magazine rifles are left unchambered almost all of the time.

Every time I look at a rifle I always look at the bolt shroud to see if the rifle is cocked, no matter who is carrying it.

Muzzle control and finger off of the trigger is the best safety and when properly done work better then any mechanical safety ever made. So, I am of the opinion and belief an empty chamber on a bolt gun is ok when hunting big game, there is no animal ever created by God that is worth risking any ones life over, if they get away then ok and I will hunt another day.

He’s using quick reply...

I've never met a single hunter in New York that doesn't hunt with a hot chamber. Last I knew we had around 700,000 deer hunters taking to the woods annually yet we have VERY FEW hunting accidents. In fact, we have one of the top hunter safety records of any state in the Country. Seems accidents involving hunting with a hot chamber are pretty rare. You're undoubtedly FAR more likely to be killed or injured in a car accident on the way to hunt or by taking a header out of your deer stand.

BH,

I guess there good safety record is because the only walk 50 yards into the woods and spend the day sitting on their azzes waiting for something to come by...……………

LC

Obviously if anyone is really worried about hunting with a hot chamber they damn well better be walking to where they hunt and not climbing into a treestand when they get there. I guess a cold chamber is fine for all the Western hunters who just "hunt" with their azzes plunked in a saddle all day and only dismount to take a potshot at an animal 900 yards away once in awhile.

Everyone gets all worked up over hot vs cold.

JFC if you’re jump shooting big game, go for it I guess. I certainly don’t pack around an empty shotgun when bird hunting.

I was going to bring up the shotgun toting bird hunter issue too. I wonder how many of these jackwagons who won't hunt with a hot chamber when toting a rifle still carry cold when toting a shotgun after grouse, pheasant, woodcock etc..

Apples and oranges. Or if you prefer, bird hunting with a shotgun vs. big game hunting with a rifle. There is a difference.

One will kill you as quick and as dead as the other.

Under some conditions. What if you're 50 yards away? Which would be your preference, a 180 grain bullet out of a .30-06, or a load of #7s?

But the main difference is, if you're bird hunting with an unloaded shotgun and a bird flushes, you're not getting a shot. So if you bird hunt with an empty chamber you may as well stay home.

Not true with big game and a rifle. Not all big game hunters are deer hunters in the woods of New York, jumping deer and taking shots at running deer.

By far most hunting accients, take place at ranges measured in feet, not yards. I haven't shot at a running deer in many years. If you're a "stillhunter" and you're jumping deer and taking running shots with any regularity, you're doing it wrong, plain and simple.

Everything you said is true. And 100% irrelevant to the main point I was making which seems to have gone undetected. So I'll repeat it:

Trying to chamber a round when you're 30 -50 feet from a deer ain't the best thing to insure success either. Einstein.

I heard about that one!

I said "big game with a rifle." Not "still hunting in thick timber with a rifle."

Oppenheimer.

I once hunted big game wih a rifle where I didn't chamber a round for the first 8 days of the hunt, and I was never in danger of missing a shot opportunity. Sheep hunting in AK, above timberline. we saw sheep every day, just didn't get within range until day 9.

Not everyone still hunts in thick timber.

Nitpicking. Einstein.

Hardly, Forrest.

And you know it cannot be done regularly because you have never tried?

Having shot a number of deer in NY. I happen to know it can be done easily.

We call stillhunting in thick timber big game hunting here in the East. In fact, most "big game" hunting takes place in thick timber around here and since there are far more hunters in the East than the West it's certainly relevant. Jackwagon.

Certainly not always it can't and you'd know that and admit it if you tried it very often and were not a liar {yeah right}. I've had them spook instantly at the snick of a safety. Any unnecesary noise or movement is likely to get you busted when they're really close. If that weren't the case, bowhunters wouldn't expend nearly as much energy making sure their equipment is as close to dead silent on the draw and release as possible. And BTW, the number of deer you've shot in NY is but a fraction of what I have, I guarantee it.

You're talking to someone who grew up hunting back east in thick woods with a .30-30. I've done plenty of still hunting with a round in the chamber. And I never said you or anyone else shouldn't do it.

Yet you continue to state the obvious with a sense of discovery, and talk about your particular style of hunting in your particular locale as if it's the be-all end-all. Stillhunting in thick timber is one style of big game hunting among many. There are lots of other ways to hunt where a round in the chamber buys you nothing but the chance for an accidental discharge. It's a shame your point of view is so narrow as to not recognize that.

I'm sure there are many circumstaces where it's perfectly viable. Never said there wasn't. My point was that it's not nearly as viable for many, maybe even the majority in the East, which is a substantial percentage of hunters overall.

And again you know this because you have never tried it... got it.

Oh but I have and more than once. Mr fuggin "I'm never wrong" genius. Sitka dummy, a fitting name for sure.

There we go! You admitted you cannot do it! Congratulations!

I admitted no such thing retard. Your reading comprehension and deductive reasoning skills are severely lacking.

Fair enough when you put it that way, but that's not how I read your earlier post:.



So, we're all not "Jackwagons eh?

Very weak, but expected.

The only thing that's weak is your mind. And your character of course.

if you want a chance at a decent whitetail buck or even a whitetail doe you better be ready and your chamber better have a shell in it ! whitetail deer are dang smart here in the east. I hunt out west a lot and sure you don`t need a cartridge in the chamber of your rifle , most of the time but sometimes you still should have one in chamber. I am glad so many don`t want a shell in the chamber of their rifle, that gives me a better chance at shooting that trophy animal you didn`t get a shot at, because my rifle chamber will have a fast magnum cartridge and i will be locked and loaded ! yes you guys hunt with a empty chamber real smart ideal ! he-ha and funny !

I used to hunt with an empty chamber, but no more. What with all the wolf attacks and all.

Good to hear eastern whitetails are different from western whitetails.

Have hunted whitetails in around 25 states and provinces in North America, from Pennsylvania and West Virginia in the east to Montana, Wyoming and Colorado in the west, and north-south from Sonora, Mexico to three Canadian provinces. Have found the "spookiness" of whitetails to depend on hunting pressure, not where they're born.

Ah yes, one with so much room... and show me an actual lie... I mean like the one you told openly.

Ahh yes, more deflection. I guess you'd like us to forget that you're a thief. Don't blame you there but it ain't happening.

Yes and we have literally shyttons of hunting pressure here, particularly on easily accessible public land.. Far different than on lightly hunted private ground or more remote/wilderness lands.

So does Montana, including the public hunting area just north of our small town. Most whitetails in Montana live on private land, but some parts of the state have whitetails on public land--some very much resembling parts of New York.

I've hunted public land in many states and provinces, including Michigan, New York and West Virginia. Heavy hunting hunting pressure is heavy hunting pressure, no matter where it occurs.

Whereabouts have you hunted in NY ? It makes a huge difference, even as far as public land. I've hunted most of it here, from the Catskills to several Counties in central NY, the finger lakes region and the Adirondacks. The only exceptions being the capital district and Western NY. I've been all over Montana and seen deer on both public and private ground. I have not hunted there so don't know what the hunting pressure is like but given the human population and the amount of land there vs here I find it diffucult to fathom hunting pressure could be equal. I've hunted places here where it was damned difficult to get out of sight of another hunter all day. And that in an area that is all wooded so visibility limited to 100 yards or so max..

You've never hunted on public land out west and you find it hard to fathom what it's like out here. Do you see a correlation?

One thing that always amazes me is how some have difficulty taking a safety off without spooking Deer, yet I have little problem doing it. I've taken it off with them looking at me and close. Taken it off when they were bedded and once 2-3 big steps close. He was looking away and just slumped at the shot. Walking by, again close and inside 30 yards so many times I wouldn't try to guess. Taken it off, stood there, got down on one knee, leaned against a tree and then shot them or decided not to. When they get bounced it makes no difference. I really don't understand how it is that difficult.

Blackheart,

Since "have not hunted there so don't know what the hunting pressure is like but given the human population and the amount of land there vs here I find it diffucult to fathom hunting pressure could be equal."

I just explained it in my previous post. MOST whitetails in Montana live on private ground, along the rivers and streams of the state. where most white people settled during the frontier days. Even before then Indians lived near streams, because they had to: Unlike New York, and any other state east of Mississippi, Montana doesn't have nearly as many permanent streams, due to an average precipitation of about a foot.

Since whitetails are cover-loving animals, Western whitetails mostly live along the thicker cover alongside the relatively few permanent streams, because unlike New York (and other Eastern states), there isn't nearly as much cover or even surface water very far away from major streams. Since most ground along major streams ir privately owned, very few of our whitetails live on public land. Those that do are either widely scattered in a few National Forest areas, where severe winter weather periodically kills off many of the deer, or on the little publis land along permanent streams.

The public hunting ground I mentioned in my earlier post is a prime example. It consists of six square miles of land alongside the Missouri River, just north of our town, but perhaps only a third of that is prime whitetail habitat. It's the only substantial chunk public whitetail country for a radius or maybe 100 miles, aside from a very few deer in the foothills of the mountains--which naturally move to the private land below after the hunting season starts.

This chunk of public land is right in the middle of an area around 100 miles across with a population of around 200,000 people. This doesn't sound like much, but most Montana hunters have no problem driving 150 miles round-trip just to hunt for the day. Consequently this little area gets a LOT of hunting pressure, even though hunters are restricted to shotgun, muzzleloaders and handguns chambered for "traditional" handgun rounds. I have hunted down there many times where I've rarely been out of sight of another hunter, even during the middle of the week. So yes, there is plenty of hunting pressure.

You're obviously a good hunter, but always assume your knowledge applies to everywhere else, even if you've never hunted there. One of the reasons I hunted (and fished) a lot of different places over the decades (including your part of the world) was to learn what hunting's like in other places. One of the many things I learned was that just traveling through some other state (or country) isn't anything like actually hunting there.

Just thought I’d pee on the fire with my two cents worth. Hunting whitetails in Northeastern Washington is not like hunting whitetails in Alabama. Mule deer behavior is a bit different in Eastern Washington than it is in the high plains of Montana or west slope in Colorado. Got no clue about NY/PA hunting and hunters. I do have a somewhat biased clue about northeastern hunters based on encounters in Colorado. LOL!

you want to see real whitetail deer hunting pressure try bowhunting in a area with lots of wolves, rifle hunting is a breeze compared to bowhunting.

Of course you had to hand pick a partial phrase to make it say all you wanted to hear and not what I actually meant. You are a genuine jackwagon without doubt.

Yep, sometimes what a person says reveals more than they'd like, in a way they didn't intend.

I'll take your word for it as far as the deer hunting situation in Montana. I was looking at it from the viewpoint that the entire human population of Montana is roughly equal to the number of licensed deer hunters in NY. Given the fact that Montana has nearly twice the land area it seems hard to believe there could be as many hunters per square mile. Wasn't considering that deer are more widely distributed here or the distances hunters would be routinely willing to travel to hunt them.

I reckon I explained what I was thinking in my post above to Mule Deer. You can think whatever you wish and it won't bother me a bit.

Yes sir it will bother you.

smokespoles opinion matters about as much to me as yours. Which is to say just about zilch. And why would it ? I'm not looking to kiss anybody's azz, nor do I expect to mooch any goods or services or solicit business. In short, I couldn't care less.

Eastern traditions, Western traditions, stalking, spotting, tracking, Deer drive, alone, with another, thick cover, open cover, guided, sitting, walking, easy ground, slippery ground, personal safety, others safety. They all can change how one feels comfortable. However, for sure this will come around again.

I prefer the 3 position Model 70 safety and when moving more and more have the safety in the bolt unlocked middle, with the bolt up. Come up upon another and the bolt goes completely rearward and exposes the magazine.

Would be interesting to hear the Benoits opinions. They also shot more than a few running Deer they bounced. They must have screwed up a lot???? Were they right? Were they safe? Were the Deer they hunted semi-tame because they hunted where they were few? Both Deer and hunters. I suspect they knew when to have or not have one in the chamber. I also am sure they would have handled themselves just fine out West.

Blackheart,

Yeah, it's hard for eastern hunters to grasp hunting in the West--just as it's hard for western hunters to grasp hunting in the East.

Have hunted in New York in the Adirondacks, Catskills and one isolated state-owned "mountain" in between. As you said, hunting varies in New York--as it does in Montana from one end of the state to other, a distance of around 700 miles, with the whitetail habitat varying from prairie with hardwood draws to big-riverbottom cottonwoods to steep, thick conifer country in the northwestern part of the state.

But it's all whitetail hunting, and as I noted, my experience is that whitetails are whitetails no matter where you hunt them. The terrain and hunting pressure make a difference, but they're still whitetails, no matter where they live.

Disagree. Have been out West on guided hunts. None of us had a problem grasping their traditions or guided rules. They made sense. But it seems when they consider coming here they are the ones who think because they do it the way they do, we are wrong. At least on here, if that means anything.

The Benoits tried hard not to "bounce" deer and in fact shot many unaware out of their beds. They called their final approach when the signs told them a buck was looking to bed the "death creep". When they did bounce one though, they would shoot at them on the run. They made no bones about the fact that it often took multiple shots to score a hit and hence their proclivity for the quick repeat firepower of their beloved 760's. They also didn't try to hide the fact that they wounded some but being good trackers in remote country, didn't worry too much about it, as they'd simply stay on the track until they were able to finish it off. The same tactics wouldn't work nearly so well in areas more heavily hunted with more closely spaced property lines and without snow. Skillful stillhunting is not just bumbling aimlessly about bumping deer and taking hasty potshots. If you aren't seeing most of your deer before they see or become aware of you, you are moving too fast, not paying enough attention to wind currents, stopping in the wrong places to glass and not using your bino's as much, as often and as thoroughly as you should.

You are so right! I have never met an easterner who thought that he knew how to things better than the hick provincials out west. That is especially true of people from New York City. I've never met an easterner who extrapolated his experience to everywhere else in the world.

I can agree with a lot of that. Not all, but a lot. I always said the Benoits would have hard time playing their game in most parts of Pa.

Dame right I'm right. I'm from the East and you would be wise not to forget it. Now how do I get up onto and off this animal?

I've also ran into some from the West who started off with an attitude only because of where I came from. Works both ways.

Addition again: And the funny thing is most of us in the East don't give a hoot where you are from if you happen to wander in. Like where you came from, you either fit in or you don't.

Yep.

battue,

Okanagan already commented on this quite appropriately, but perhaps I should have defined my terms: I have yet to meet an Easterner who hasn't hunted in the West who can really grasp the difference, or a Westerner who hasn't hunted in the East who can grasp the difference.

That said, I have guided off-and-on the West since the late 1980's, and yes, I have run into many Easterners who think they know everything there is about Western hunting, because they live and hunt in one of those "high pressure" Eastern states. In fact the first outfitter I worked for warned me that many Easterners would start telling me how to hunt after a day or two, and I found he was right, not just when guiding but on various hunts across the country. A good example was a whitetail hunt on the prairies of eastern Colorado, where a guy from New England was absolutely certain the local guide didn't have a clue how to hunt whitetails.

The problem with hunting prairie whitetails is the limited "whitetail cover" is so scarce and obvious everybody hunts it, and mature bucks soon learn to avoid it. Yet this "expert" insisted on hunting from a treestand along a minor stream with a cottonwood stand along the banks, because obviously that's where whitetails would be.

The outfitter said fine, go ahead--while he and his guides took the rest of the hunters out onto even more open prairie, where they could glass for bucks, just like they do for mule deer. The biggest whitetail buck taken during the hunt was glassed, bedded down, on an almost open hillside, and after a long stalk shot in its bed by the then-editor of a major Midwestern whitetail magazine, who'd never seen anything like that before. Meanwhile the New England expert sat in his treestand (the location personally selected by him) for three days without seeing a buck, though he did see a few does.

That night a blizzard blew through, and by the next morning many deer from the open prairie had migrated to bigger riverbottoms, due to their heavy cover. I killed a very good buck while still-hunting through such cover, and my hunting partner (a much more widely experienced whitetail hunter than the New England expert) killed another good buck half an hour later.

That evening the New England expert that the big rivertbottoms OBVIOUSLY where whitetails lived. But the bucks hadn't been there before the blizzard.

The weather cleared the next day, and on the last day of the hunt the outfitter took the New England expert out hims,and glassed up what may have been a B&C buck bedded in an overgrown hayfield, far from any typical whitetail cover. The expert didn't believe him--until the buck jumped and ran, whereupon the expert missed it.

That is just ONE example of how Eastern hunters who've never been West know more than the locals. I could cite a bunch of others, including a group of hunters from Minnesota trying to perform pronghorn drives on the sagebrush prairie--which failed miserably.

In fact the first outfitter I worked for pinpointed certain states where hunters tended to be know-it-alls, despite never hunting outside their own state before. The leading state, by the way, was not Texas, though both we guided more than one Texan who couldn't comprehend "hunting" without sitting near a corn feeder.

If you want to discuss this some more, I'd be happy to provide more examples.

MuleDeer,

Because of your occupation at the time it is obvious you can site and discuss many more examples. Not disputing that. I personally didn't have any problem grasping the the difference immediately. Well, it most certainly looks different being the first. Then there was the fact I was paying someone for their knowledge and experience. Hmmm, again it would probably be wise to learn and pay attention. There was this one time when we were moving thru some thicker cover on an Elk hunt. There were fresh tracks and you could smell Elk. The guide looked at me and said you may want to put one in the chamber. I thought it was a wise suggestion. Even to this Easterner it made sense.

Outfitters and guides see it all and then some. They see it from those from all over this country. They normally will not see it from the locals and again there would be an obvious reason.

That sounds awesome in so many respects.

Addition again for discussion.

On a Wyoming hunt every morning the outfitter would tell the guides where he wanted them to go and off we went. The other guides used it as a general suggestion and they would run and gun with the hunters. Mine took it as an absolute and he would pick a spot and we would sit and sit and sit. Finally he said, you stay here I'm going to take a walk. As soon as he was out of sight, I was gone because I had had it. I was back at the spot come late evening and he was pissed. We had a discussion of the why of it and being and Easterner, I guess it just didn't matter.

Addition: That night the outfitter gave me a look, but never said a word.

Then two things happened on the last day. One was in the last hour we ran into some Cows. I had a Cow tag and he said shoot that one. I told him I didn't come to shoot a Cow and he said, "Shoot that Elk." I being an arrogant Easterner, unloaded the rifle and walked away. (As the story comes back-he catches up and says; "I have to admit, you know what you want." "Ya, thanks".) Next came the guides campfire on the last night of the hunt. Only guides and they drank beer and raised a little hell. Well one came over and asked me to join them. The guide I had wasn't there and I was told he wasn't invited, but they wanted me to know that I got screwed.


Damn Easterners never get it....

That happens too. I have encountered lousy western guides, and even lousy African PH's, who get a lot more training than the average western guide--though that also varies from country to country.

But my point is that just because somebody has hunted a lot locally, and learned to be successful on (say) whitetails, doesn't mean they know all about every kind of hunting everywhere.

And New Yorkers epitomize this. Always humble and open-minded, like blackhart.

Agree completely.

And I'm another. I'm always humble when you tell me about all that snatch that wants to grab onto you. I'm even open-minded when I think about it....

** (ref. Western hunters/wannaB writers)** --NO reference to JB at all!!!

I joined the 'fire' in 2010 and I encountered the same attitude "on here".

I have a close, long time friend and have gone hunting W/him many Xs.
I've told him -- You are the guide, To which he replied, No way. 1 year we couldn't find the deer moving any where any time. I went stalking/scouting and found the deer were coming out EARLY, LATE, & at night so very CLOSE to their thickets. I marked a few places and showed him. Later we both killed reasonable bucks.

I agree w/ MD that whitetail are whitetail wherever they are. ATST I've found that deer LEARN the activities, smells, & sounds of their particular area and respond accordingly.

When my younger son was beginning to deer hunt, I took him and we found a small area that NO ONE had hunted in a long time. I showed him how to get in and where to SIT (on the ground with his back to a tree) in a fairly close situation. Before 8: AM I heard his MZL go off.
He killed his second deer & FIRST deer w/a mzld.

Later I went back and looked close and found a small oak sapling with a SKINT place on it about knee high. I looked closer and found his Buffalo Bullet AFTER it went thru the deer and hit the sapling. The mushroomed bullet was laying on the ground at the base of the tree.
That's one of his and my FAV hunting stories.

The point in that is 'sometimes' when you do what the deer are NOT expecting---- they are surprised.

Just because something NORMALLY works wherever you hunt--- that's NOT the only way to hunt. East or West.


Jerry

ps: keep your Bolt Locked Down on Safe with a muzzleloader. GRIN

Ain't many people on here that are "humble". I've been on alot of different hunting/shooting websites for the past 20 years and there is nowhere else with so much arrogance displayed on a consistent basis. You're as good or better at that than most.

Well, at least with me it's justified.

Never have so many shared so much BS with so little redeeming value. .... except maybe on Optics Talk

Well, on behalf of all the others I'd like to thank you for your contributions.

I've been lurking here awhile but this thread pulled me into the muck.

Another NY'er who also still hunts with a loaded chamber. Thing is I don't take snap shots at running deer like I'm grouse hunting. Most times the deer gets caught flat footed staring back at you trying to see what's up or else it gives itself away moving when I'm stationary. It's about covering ground thoroughly not quickly. But you can bet when I head west I'll be following directions from my guide.
I can tell you that the majority of self induced hunting incidents here from a hot chamber are caused by fools climbing in or out of treestands.

To the op;; Only once in 34 years have I had a bolt open on me, and that was walking down the old tractor path headed back to the house. 80's vintage Rem 700. Felt it happen and lost one cartridge in the snow, which I found a couple days later when it warmed up. I can understand the risks of losing a bolt but it's probably a wash compared to unloading with the safety off. I always open the bolt then dump the floorplate. With an ADL style I would just run the bolt enough to pop the round up, much like when I unload my pump shotgun. I prefer the simplicity of a two position safety, just because it's what I'm used to.

LOL, I've hauled every M-700 I've ever had to my 'Smith to have that tab? ground down so I "can" leave the rifle on safe while loading and chambering a live round for hunting and unloading.

I put no more attention to sweeping my bolt open while hunting than I do sweeping the hammer of a holstered revolver back to the fire position, I keep an eye on my chit.

Welcome to the muck Bry.


This spawned an image of Fudds trying to herd cats in my mind. Thanks for the chuckle.

So to sum it up: Yankee deer are smarter than Yankee hunters. Earth shattering.

This argument / whole thread is pretty weak.



As for bolts, I think the two position bolt handle and three position safety on the Steyr is pretty cool, I really like. How much would it influence me buying / not buying a rifle? Between hardly any and not at all.

I think we have this argument about every six months and nobody changes their mind on the subject.

Me, I try to hunt the west every year and when I'm out there it's an empty chamber until it's time to shoot. You do a lot more walking and climbing than back home and the shots are usually taken after a stalk.

At home (mississippi) a round goes in the chamber as soon as I start walking to my stand, the rifle is unloaded to climb into the stand, and it's loaded again as soon as I'm in the stand. I've killed multiple deer where the first time I saw them they were staring straight at me inside 50 yards.

I get that safety is important, but if you can't manage to not shoot yourself sitting in a shooting house overlooking a food plot then you probably shouldn't be hunting.

Generally true.




So far I haven't seen anyone recommend hunting with an empty chamber while you're sitting in a stand. Maybe I missed it?

Go back and read the last twenty or so threads where this horse has been flogged & you’ll see plenty saying just that.

I often have the bolt open in a ground blind. Sometimes Merlot is in there also and he could knock it over. Probably another dumb ass way we hunt up or over here. However, even tho he came here from Georgia he seems to enjoy it.

Duffy and Abby were the best at it. If they raised their head and started flaring their nose, it would be wise to take a line off it. Yankee thing, most wouldn’t understand.

How can a single human being be so completely FOS?

Given the sheer volume of said human being, it would take a lot, but no doubt he can git 'er done.

I have them both ways. I like the safety on when emptying the chamber or magazine if the magazine doesn’t have another way to empty it.

I prefer the bolt not to be locked down generally.

I'm pretty simple. But I can control a loaded rifle while hunting. I can even eject a live round out of the chamber with no fear or history of deployment with the safety off. Whether carrying round chambered or not chambered I'll keep the safety on. And I want it to lock the bolt. Have several times had thick brush pull a bolt open. Don't like that even with an empty chamber. So to summarize, even if you don't carry unloaded chamber do you really want the bolt opened unintentionally?? Course, many hunt thick woods that ain't really even thin so brush is no problem. Is for me. FWIW