So I always here all the LR hunting haters talking about all the crippled big game animals walking around and how every year so many have to be put down because of bad shots from LR guys yadda yadda . And many times they say there's like charts or something you can look up and see the proof.
Has anyone ever seen one of these or fish and game analytics or something? Like I'm legit curious because everytime I've asked these people for proof, no link, no whatever to look up ,just "O WHY IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME" .
So. Any actual numbers like they say or ?

Can someone please interpret?

Sock puppets have a diverse language, but let me give you the cliff notes just based on the thread title

If you can't get close enough, you are a bad hunter

In 1990 I believe, the Arizona game and fish commission was only one vote shy of cancelling Archery Elk hunting in Arizona due to the number of elk wounded by bow hunters.
I don't remember the exact figures but it was like 3 elk wounded for every elk recovered. They just could stomach that statistic and i can't really say i blame them.
I suspect there are a fair number of cripples due to guys buying " package" hunting rifles that suddenly make them long range hunters.

" I just spent $10 k at Gunwurks, i can automatically make 1000 yard shots"...

Wrong

This^

Don’t have any field data on live animals - but can point directly to the results of Ridgway, PA long range varmint benchrest silhouette matches - where a winning score is in the low to mid 30s (out of 40) and the average score is in the low 20s. So 2-3 out of four shots are hitting a stationary target between 850-1000 yards (that would be the approximately size of vitals) - from the better shooters. I personally can’t imagine taking a shot at a living animal (that is moving or has the potential to move) at these ranges just so I could brag about how far I killed one. I have way more respect for the animals than I do a “hunter” that would take such a shot. Damn sad really that some need attention so bad that this is something they have to brag about.

The other things is how many of these shooters ever walk out to the distance they shoot to follow up a shot?

PennDog

If you need to be up close to game in order to hit what you're shooting at, you are incapable of properly handling a rifle and you have no business tramping through the woods with a loaded rifle

You are a loose cannon and I don't trust you

I'm not exactly sure what he's asking/saying. Except that there are probably more hunters that get buck fever and wound animals, than the "longrange" hunters do. I'm sure there is no chart showing this as proof, but I've seen it many times. A lot of guys get pretty worked up, when confronted with making a shot on live game animals.

Or if you're too lazy to get close, you shouldn't be in the woods with a loaded rfle.

I remember there was a thing about L.R. hunting about five years back maybe little longer where couple of guys wounded Elk, total of four I believe and a Outfitters guide turned them in and believe it was documented on film as well but edit out of the film that they put up on the Net. Kind of funny in Africa you wound and lose your game that tag is considered used and hunter [bleep] out of luck. Oh well L.R. away.

People who hate LR hunting like trying to talk about how many animals are crippled because of LR hunters

They always talk about proof that you can find

I've never seen anything from fish and game or similar ,in the form charts , studies or some form of analytics that shows numbers of animals crippled by LR hunters or other hunters in general.

Where is this mystical proof LR hunters keep talking about but can never actually provide. If there even is any

This is just another example of numbers without statistics.

A friend of mine put it into a more realistic realm when he said “a million deer is 20 and a billion is 40”


It’s not new to stretch the truth to make a point…

Numbers and statistics can be misleading. My son tracked 2 wounded deer that were shot at less than 200yds with a 6.5 CM. Didn't find either one, does that mean a 6.5 CM sucks for killing deer?

That particular one sounds cursed...

Just how the heck would there be any "charts" to look up when no one is contacting any game biologists to report wounded animals. Just dumb to assume that's there's any solid proof recorded any where.

^This sums it up.

I actually believe that it's caliber/bullet selection and failure of that bullet at long range, loss of energy, velocity falls below minimum FPS to cause upset and sheer apart or expand that causes more issues with wounding than the numbskull behind the trigger. The numbskull actually goes and shoots at long range, practices reading wind/conditions because they can come and brag/post pictures online or be king asshat at the local long distance range. Ballistic apps, Labradars and Xeros further add to the problem, no more math, no more developing your physical dope, punch it in and the device spits out the drop/drift chart. Any bullet can ring steel, punch paper or go thru the imaginary "vitals" at any distance the numbskull chooses if they practice alot. It's when those imaginary "vitals" become flesh and blood where the problem is exacerbated.

Read all of the "bullet failure" threads across the WWW and it soon becomes apparent that the numbskull is actually responsible because they developed their load based on accuracy criteria versus bullet performance criteria and not because they weren't able to actually hit their target, problem is they actually hit what they were aiming at.

How many threads about Berger/Nosler/Hornady/Barnes with malformed bullets, reports of penciling, or expending energy to soon creating craters in the onside shoulders do we read versus success stories where the caliber/bullet performed as it should? The word of mouth phenomenon at its core.

The problem is on this forum and others like it, we hear/read about alot of the failure of this or that stories, but we only read a few of the actual success stories. Facebook is even more of a bad experience collecting disaster.

People don't like to always report the success, not because they are not proud, but because of the internet scouters. Kinda like boom scouters back in the pre-internet days of duck or dove hunting. People to lazy to put in the work mine the data of those who do. Well, that same laziness transfers over to load development, they chose the bullet that they can develop the quickest accurate load with, versus choosing a bullet that is going to give them the best performance over the ranges they may actually have to use that bullet. Then those same people read all the threads or actually ask questions related to this zone or this area and figure where their best chance of seeing the species they are after and apply for that area.

I read it all the time, I consume a lot of information, problem is my health does not allow me to capitalize on all that information.

I can think of three podcasts where the "expert" talks about what they have personally witnessed using Berger hunting bullets and they perform exactly as they were designed when used within the design parameters, but then hearing reports from other hunters about the failures, then when quizzed, it becomes apparent that the bullet was not able to perform because the caliber was too small and didn't carry enough energy or velocity at the extended range.

For every actual posting member here, there are 10+ non-members reading and accumulating the information about their chosen caliber, their chosen rifle platform, their optics, their clothing and their bullet and load selection and the areas they plan to hunt. It is based on choice, not on performance. It's cool to have this or that because all of the other kids are doing it, hell, I have done it.

How many times have you stumbled across information(pins dropped) on Google maps, On-X or any other "hunting" app that are not private. Before the days of apps for hunting, I remember reading about "hunters" using Google maps to search for pins left that were not private and the day of the big duck hunt the pin dropper arrives to several boats being in their honey hole. I was guilty of dropping non private pins all over a lake of the worst areas to setup because of the internet scouters. I even had a boat built to run a particular river channel that a fullsize boat couldn't navigate. Killed alot of ducks before the college kids found a new way to access that pocket. I no longer hunt public for that reason.

This discussion isn't about the actual distance, it's about how lazy the slob is in choosing their equipment, developing their load, fully developing their condition reading skills and picking an area where their chances for seeing game are high, but well beyond the performance of their caliber/bullet and not their actual ability to hit at that distance.

Wounded game is because a lot of the chosen bullet didn't perform, a lot of not reading the conditions properly and maybe a little of "buck fever". Technology and equipment has led us backwards as hunters, the good old days of Kentucky windage and soft mushrooming bullets are gone. It's more about bragging than hunting or feeding your family.

It’s my job to make good shots within the capabilities of my skill and equipment, not to police others. Someone who takes risky shots and doesn’t follow up is a callous, selfish bum, no matter what they shoot or how far. Every shot, unless there’s clear evidence of a clean miss, should be checked out, even if it means a long hard hike.

Have only seen one lost wounded deer on my WMA in years of hunting there, and that hunter worked very hard to recover it. I was dragging out one of my own, so after helping him look for more blood for a bit, I left him to it. Have never found one there dead by bullet or arrow.

For myself I am totally against this thing called long range hunting. Amazing thing about it is I have never read of a bad shot. Seems long range hunter's? always kill with one well placed shot! If they would make a serious attempt to learn to hunt they probably would not have to shoot long range but, what fun is that?

Bottom line is people not accepting responsibility for shots , regardless of distance.
Once the trigger is tripped we own the shot. And many don't accept that, they don't care if they hit the animal , killed it or wounded it.

Many people I meet at the range figure they are long rangers because they have the gear, yet they never get off the bench or take random distance shots, rather they go to each distance progressively.
It does not lead to good shooting practices when it comes to hunting , regardless of distance.
Cat

I have a habit of asking this when " long range" is brought up

At what distance is long range defined and who defines it? One man's long range is another's mid range
Long distance with my stick bow is a lot shorter than my .58 Plains rifle, and neither are anywhere near my. Scoped rifles. - with me behind them .
Time of flight is something that needs to be taken into account and many do not, not to mention shooter ability which is rarely taken into account.
Cat

Good Lord you are one of the biggest d bags on this board.

Bluefish, I think you missed that both Darryle and Swamplord's posts were both DRIPPING with a heavy dose of sarcasm.

My late Brother started as a wrangler for some bigger outfitters in Wyoming then became a guide between Idaho and Wyoming. He would not tolerate high risk shots and longer ranges. I don’t think he ever told me what he considered extreme range cause a lot depended on the hunter’s ability and his rifle’s acceptable range. One of his beefs were clients that started to feel the pressure when only a day or two are left to hunt. They wanted to stalk and hunt at reasonable ranges in the beginning then wanted to take almost any shot toward the end. He would allow some of this early in the day but couldn’t stand to see some guy shoot across a deep canyon late in the day knowing the animal would likely roll to the bottom or fall on the other side. To try and recover the game would mean going back for the horses and ride for hours in order to cross over or try to get into the bottom all in the dark. Often the animal was never found until next day sometimes never.

Clients bitching the guide couldn’t or wouldn’t retrieve their prize. After a while he got fed up with this crap and passed the client off to the outfitters kids or anybody who’d take them. He had one client who filed a formal complaint so he had to go to the Wyoming Board of Outfitters to explain his decision to drop a client who wanted to shoot at an elk in late day low light across a steep draw that was impassable with horses without riding ten or so miles around in the dark. The shot was guesstimated at around 600 yards. He felt his actions were well within the Board’s rules of ethics and they agreed. So it’s up to the guide really if you try what he thinks is a high risk long range shot that could end in crippled or wasted game. Of course the outfitter can see this as lost future income and a nick on his record so some awfully good guides have to look for outfitters who understand. Not all outfitters are guides so some see this as business only.

Rick

Reason why I made a recommendation long ago that it should be LONG RANGE SHOOTING!

To take the 'load' off of hunters for reasons of this posting!

Long range shooting (for me anyway)
Means targets .
If you are shooting at an animal, I consider it a hunting shot, regardless of distance .
Cat

The guy who just spent 10K at Gunwerks needs to shoot at Ridgway or Williamsport & get his eyes opened.

We take out 150 to 165 big game hunters every year, we learned long ago to keep a couple of good tracking dogs, 99% of wounded critters here are shot inside 250 yards and 95% of them are gut shot. and we find 99.9% of them, if a wounded critter stays out over night we are lucky to retrieve the head. it does not have to be a long range shot to be a lousy shot. Rio7

never experienced it but I've read about before and I don't know if it's still current but some countries have been known to actually give shooting tests of shooting off hand on steel animal targets somewhat similar to our silhouette targets and even moving steel targets to see if they would even issue a hunting license.

Yeah got some friends in the EU that told me about it. Honestly, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to a degree

Most of the injured big game animals that I've encountered over the years had injuries that were more consistent with being hit by a car. I've seen a few whitetails that had broadheads in them but they were doing fine when taken. Animals walking around crippled from a poor hit with a rifle seems like fairly rare occurrence to me.

During offhand matches - with .22s - AT 100 FEET people have difficulty keeping “groups” under 5-6”……after a while, if they stick with it, they can shrink those groups in half. Too many people think that if I have the equipment and put the reticle/sights on the target it’ll be an automatic hit - it’s just exaggerated as the distance increases (I see plenty of wounded animals under 300 yards - even under 100). I firmly believe that a competency shooting “test” should be implemented by every state before issuing a license - nothing that is too difficult but at least get people to use their equipment and “make” them somewhat aware of what it takes. This wouldn’t eliminate wounded animals but it would hopefully reduce the numbers?!

PennDog

I would be willing to bet the farm that a way higher % of animals have been crippled and lost by average hunters/shooters, than animals that have been crippled and lost by excellent hunters/shooters at long range.

That’s not a very good comparison - let’s looks at EXCELLENT hunters/shooters that do not take extend range shots on game.

PennDog

how many folks bitching about long range hunting have ever shot a deer beyond 600 yards? how many folks have witnessed what happens on a bad hit at long range? how do deer respond to it? If you can't answer that question, your arguement is bullshit, that is a fact!

I guess you are not factoring in the terrain or situations, sometimes you can't get closer.

For example, when bow hunting my average shot on deer, moose, and bears is <20 yards. I have killed deer at the 100-yard mark.

How about the stick and string? Talk about lost game.

Whoa buddy - nobody was bitching but you sure are riled up. Please look at my first post - these are fact observed from shooters at 850-1000 yards. Slightly over 1/2 of all shots, on average, would miss the vitals of an animal - this is from hundreds of competitive shooters. Plus don’t get me wrong I know there are people that can do it - but they aren’t many. My biggest point is I think that if it’s done to brag then that is as you say “bullshit”.

PennDog

BTW - I never intend to shoot at an animal beyond the distance that I’m comfortable with.

not singling anyone out, but if you do not know what goes on on a long range deer shot than you have no idea, I have myself taken 57 deer and a bear beyond 450 yards, a couple dozen beyond 600, more than a handful over a grand. why do I do it? because I spent over 25 years learning the how, and what, then after relentless practice I felt confidant enough to do it, have taught dozens of other shooters young and old the method that I have found that works.

I can say never have I shot one at long range that was not a perfect hit that ran out of sight unless it was a lung hit, then they just smell/taste blood panic and sprint to their death just like a bow kill, a 50 yard rifle kill or whatever. The poorly hit ones cannot relate a rifle report that far away with danger, all they know is they are hurt and lay up sometimes within feet of where they were standing when hit, they rarely go more than 40 yards before they lay down.

People love telling other people what to do.

Whether it's purchasing a set of tires or shooting an animal, everyone else has an opinion of how you should do it.

This is good and I’m glad that you never had anything but a perfect hit on a long range shot….. seeing your from WV the trail to Ridgway or Williamsport, PA is a relatively short one and I for one would love to see someone shoot a 40 - sounds like it would be extremely easy for you! The matches start in April.

PennDog

Ridge Runner - With your imagination you should be writing fiction not hunting. You would make a million.

What about goose and duck hunting with shotguns, talk about lost game!!!

read what I typed again, what it says, not what you think it says, if you still don't understand it I will try to explain it. I did change a couple words to clear it up a bit, sorry am a redneck hunter not a rhodes scholar

If I misread/understood what you wrote then I apologize. I wasn’t trying to be difficult and I was sincere in inviting you to these matches. Please also reread my post where I stated that I know people that are capable of hunting/shooting at longer ranges and I have no beef with these folks - my issue as I stated (maybe not clearly) is that there are A LOT of folks that do it simply to brag about how far they killed something - this I do not respect - and these people typically do not follow up their shots (sounds like you do).

I’m done - but you are more than welcome to come up and shoot - would like to meet you and am always willing to learn from people that are capable.

PennDog

Rednecks are invited to my home 365 days a year, especially for NFL and beer-drinking events

……well I do like beer and football and I grew up on a dairy farm🤔😊

PennDog

Well, you are invited as well!

Farmers, Ranchers and Rednecks are the best people out there

deleted

I deal in facts and experience, nothing else, been doing this since 1986.no need to be an ass just because you don't know enough to know that you just don't know

See ...... you do have a way with words. Bet you can type with a straight finger too!

I would hazard a guess: There are far more deer wounded and lost by "hunters" taking snap shots at running game in heavy cover than are lost to serious long range marksmen.

Isn't this the truth. I have never heard or read of a long range marksman they made a bad shot!

Selective outrage ... pretty much a liberal fktard trait

Hundreds if not thousands of deer, wounded and lost every year by Fuddsy, fat old fkrs who can't shoot beyond 100 yards with shiitty guns, cartridges & bullets ... no complaints

But, in their mind, based on their own uselessness with a rifle... they imagine the possibility of a wounded animal at long range .... OUTRAGE

Get the proper equipment & learn how to shoot !

but if you're unwilling or too stupid to learn, then stay in your lane and quit bitching about what people can do far better than you ever will

Bad mojo on that one, or the hunter. If just one hunter did that.

I was at the range right before deer season opened up over here. A guy staples his cute deer target up on the backer board, fires off 5 shots, and calls it "good":

Just to be clear, that deer target was shot from a "hunter", from the bench, and using sand bags.

After he left, I walked down and took a picture of his target. To a lot of "hunters", this is "good enough". It's pretty revolting, if you ask me. The guys that are making solid hits, are the guys out there practicing.

Shoot from field positions, off your pack, or even in the prone with a bi-pod, if you live in a place like I do, and can do that in some areas. Any and all practicing is better than no practice at all.

I think each person needs to know their limits. Based on what they have practice at. After 400 yds I am not comfortable. If I was going to be taking longer shots I would need to practice.Some one that has practice longer shots will be able to shoot farther that I should be shooting.

Hay good to see you here bud.

hey wolfie, a bit different atmosphere than T-man eh?

I think that the guy does not appreciate the taste of BACKSTRAPS!

As I said the average hunter cripples more big game at short range, than excellent shooters do at long range.

How many yards was that target set out at?

I shoot deer at what I consider long range, 500+yds on a regular basis. The fact is, very few people if any can out shoot me when I'm shooting at 100yds and their shooting at 500yds. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story, range matters.

It's their tag, let em do as they wish. Around the house on our own farms when I'm shooting does and coyotes, I'll stretch my rifles legs a bit. I tend to hold shoulder. Never center mass on deer. Don't blink an eye to shoot at a doe at 500 or so. 600 is an absolute bomb, I don't care what anybody says. Now if it's an out of state deal or an outfitted hunt, I want to be inside 300. 200 is better. I run around with the magnums here in western oklahoma but when I'm out of state, I usually take a simple 06, 280, 284, whatever. Hate to save up 10 years of points to shoot a critter in the azz and lose it. I got the rifle, scope, shoot all the time out to 6, but you don't have a bench or sand bags in the field. Most of the time, those shots are "right now" too. But hey, each to their own.

And what Shrap said about a million is 20 and a billion is 40. Lot of truth to that.

that`s a very good statement and true , i have seen these things mostly by residents with poor shooting who live in their own state , most non-residents who go hunt in other states are very prepared and have practiced with their firearm , muzzle loader or archery equipment .

Me shooting that target at 300 yards with my M1917, all heart lol

Putting marks on someone else's target and saying you shot the heart is pretty lame.
Cat

It was A joke Kittycat, get a life will ya! lol

Crap like that never comes off as a joke when people know who you really are
Cat

Says the biggest know-it-all blowhard on AO!

Here comes the Posse!

I thought things were bad and then here comes Coyote 10. Can't wait to see who can top him?

The only posse after you is in your mind.
Cat

could be he is sighted in for max. point blank range on aa 6" target, all my mid range rifles that I don't dial are sighted in 2.75" high at 100, its the easy way to hit a deer's shoulder out to 400

That target was on our 100 yard range. The guy was shooting from the bench, off of sand bags.

I was shooting my girlfriends new to her 243 win that day.


Then I went over to the 400 yard range. Why not just get a scope wtih the appropriate reticle, when shooting the distance?? This set it high and hope you are in the vitals is just as bad as guessing.


If you are planning on shooting 400 yards, you might as well shoot at 400 yards and confirm your equipment.

Shooting a 6-7" group off of a bench qualifies a guy to shoot out to 400 yards because he has his sights adjusted high for MPBR? I guess that is the mentality of some hunters these days and days way past us.

I for damn sure would not want to be responsible for the kind of carnage that guy does in the field.

Ya sure Kittycat, you know exactly who I am talking about. I can even post threads of your posse stalking me here as was done on CGN until they got me banned, but I will not waste my time.

You're an idiot, a cowardly internet bully, and a liar, so GFY.

Happy New Year

Sometimes you hunt areas where you could be shooting 50 yards or 450 and never know where the game will show up, if your not shooting 500+ not much use to dial. Oh BTW while your showing targets.
3 shots at 750 yards, shot prone off a bipod
https://imgur.com/x7as2zg
It ain't hard
And also it's not guessing, +3" at 100 with most modern cartridges =
100 yards, hold lower shoulder,
200 yards hold mid shoulder,
300 yards hold upper shoulder
400 yards hold on hairline

Run the numbers and prove me wrong

Scotty;
Good morning or perhaps afternoon already where you're out on a raid, regardless I trust that Christmas was a good one for you and you're well.

Thanks for your reply sir, I agree with your thoughts on the subject completely.

As many know, I've been involved in teaching the BC Hunter Safety course at our gun club for 30+ years and the subject of "how far can I shoot and/or how far is it ethical to shoot" comes up pretty much every year.

The answer I've come up with is that if the shooter can hit a standard paper plate at that distance each time and every time, that's how far they're able to shoot at game. I'll stipulate too that they need to hit the plate from the chosen shooting position if it's a firearm.

The theory being paper plates are reasonably inexpensive and available targets and don't wreck arrows that badly either, so whether the new hunter is going out with a bow, in a shotgun zone, a muzzle loader, great grandpa's ancient .303 LE or something newer, they have a way to measure their ability.

That said, when a buddy and I used to run the center fire rifle shoot at the same club's annual Turkey Shoot, when we put up archery targets such as bsa1917 showed and had offhand matches, the results were both educational and somewhat dreadful at the same time. This was folks who had enough confidence in their abilities to come and compete, some reasonably serious competitors at that.

My friend and I still talk about how abysmal most folks were shooting from standing, unsupported positions.

Some respondents have mentioned shots at game that was spooked or at least aware of the hunter and I believe that's definitely a factor as well or surely can often be.

Usually if we stretch the distance to the target, there's a better chance of it being relaxed and unaware of us which should be a plus I'd think.

Of course other than getting the distance ranged correctly, the wind will become more of a factor out there too, so it's a mixed blessing.

Thanks again for your reply and all the best in the New Year.

Dwayne

What do folks think about coyotes being gunned at beyond admitted abilities, simply because they're coyotes?

I've come across several people over the years who seemingly have a conscious limit to shots they'll take on deer or elk, but wail away at coyotes without any regard to their shooting ability, simply because it is 'just a coyote'.

Taking a 1000 yard shot by just aiming 10 feet high is a surefire way to educate a coyote, but that is a different discussion.

T Inman;
Good afternoon my cyber friend, I trust you had a good Christmas wherever you spent it and that you're well.

While I'm loath and somewhat ashamed to admit it T, I would have been in the camp of folks shooting too far at coyotes, simply because they were coyotes and I wanted them gone.

In the late '80's when we started hunting coyotes to sell the hides to a local trapper, I amended my ways because I wanted to retrieve it and emphatically didn't want to educate them.

As you mention, we could have another discussion on educating coyotes for sure.

Nowadays I might stretch my shots a wee bit further with a coyote, but part of the rationale there is that a peripheral hit with a .223" varmint bullet - 60gr HP in a .223 and 55gr Ballistic Tip in an old school 1:14 .22-.250AI - will be fatal, usually instantly fatal from what we've seen.

We can sometimes give away coyote hides here, depending on condition, but both because I've changed my perspective as I've aged and no, I do not want to educate them, personally I don't shoot at a dog unless I'm sure I can kill it.

Happy New Year to you, I hope that next year is better and all ways for you and as always, the coffee is on for you if you ever wander past.

Dwayne

It's always better to dial or use a good reticle. If you feel comfortable guessing your imaginary hold overs, more power to you. People like you are probably part of the reason this thread exists. Just a thought. I always like to be sure of the shot I'm going to take. You also shouldn't be aiming at the "deer shoulder" at 400 yards. You are just digging yourself deeper, with stupid remarks. Again, if you are the guy shooting 6-7" groups at 100 yards, you have no business at all trying to poke them further out.

I can relate Dwayne....on most every one of those accounts.

I'm sorry about your stroke.

I suspect there are as many cripples by people that shouldn't be hunting in the first place as there are by LR shooters. Shooting at long range is never required unless your a military snipper and even then instructions are to get close as you can. The farther away the target is the more things that can go wrong. But even worse for me is the close range people that simply can't shoot and make no effort to improve. I remember a guy I met in Montana years ago at a rifle range. He said shooting at 100 yds little groups ain't my thing but run a piece of meat by me. I simply walked away disgusted with him! Yet I still frown on this thing called long range hunting which is nothing more than long range shooting. Big difference between shooting and actually hunting. I do shoot target's at longer range than I'll hunt but believe shooting at long range for practice makes me better at reasonable range. Not practicing at all cramps my style!

I'm STILL not seeing any of these high brow holier than thou LR haters define what "long range" is. A few have said in vague terms it's further than they're comfortable shooting. The ONLY thing they can agree equally on, and are loudest about, is that "it's not hunting it's just shooting". So define what you hate, or shut the f-uck up about it already.

I am the same Don. I am a TR shooter, but hunt with both irons and low power scopes at less than half the longest distance I shoot my match rifles at . :>)
Cat

for one thing ballistics is just simple math, the holdovers are not imaginary, if you are convinced they are show me the numbers, prove your bullshit or STFU! its that simple

This pretty much proves you can't fix stupid, where do you aim?
" You also shouldn't be aiming at the "deer shoulder" at 400 yards."

Egh about the same , honestly I feel this is like t-man after dark ,buncha old guys having online dick measuring competitions , repeating the same [bleep] day in and day out few good folks who have actual info,at least I don't have mod responsibilities here and don't have to be polite like I usually have to lol. Gotta say though most of the insults and what no on here are weaker then Bidens mental state
Still better then Greybeards or predator masters tho I guess
Might make a post about why 6.5 creed is better then .270 or something and see what happens

BTW folks here is 4 shots at 1004 yards from an AR-10 chambered 6.5 creed with a 9 mph crosswind
[Linked Image]

I suspect a guy that just bought a gunwerks rifle with no knowledge couldn't even come close to an animal much less wound one at 1000. Probably even 500 to be honest.

You have PLENTY of time to range and dial at 400 yards.

If you don't, then you haven't done your job staying concealed...and you have no business whatsoever attempting a shot. Let it walk.

It's that simple.

why will idiots stretch their max shot distance on a buck of a lifetime but not on a doe. That always made zero sense. Lots of does. If I was going to stretch it would be on them and not on a needle in a haystack. on that one I"d get even closer if I could than my comfortable range.

I can and will shoot a long ways given the right conditions. 1000 plus does not bother me at all. there aren't that many days I feel comfortable that far out though.

I will say this. I've hunted since I can recall grandpa holding a 22 up for me to shoot. I've done most any way. Lots and lots of archery. Compound, crossbow, recurve, long bow. Wood arrows stone heads. Etc... handguns, shot deer with 380 acp. Shotguns. Rifles. 50 bmg. Longest shot on a game animal was shy of 1000 just a bit. One shot one kill. Its a lot more work to be able to take the long shot, than it is to learn to get closer and take and easier shot. Was easy to get 100-200 or less of most deer we shot when I was younger. We did not hunt out west so there is that. But it took many many years of shooting to be confident to 500 or 600. Even more beyond that. If I am not confident that I can hit a clay target or really close then I refuse the shot. With whatever I have at whatever distance I am at. And FWIW We have wounded more deer at less than 300 yards than beyond 300 yards.

Concealed at 400 yards, the thought that game would see you at 400 yards is idiotic, pronghorn maybe, whitetails never

Your circle is pretty small.

I'm a short range meat hunter by definition, but could care less whether someone shoots close up, or to the horizon. I'm much more interested/judgemental in how I do it than how you do it.

I would imagine, considering how many folk hunt game in total vs. how many hunt long range, the the number of critters wounded by long range shooter would be exponentially less than what are taken as a whole.

YMMV

ya!

GWB

I'm actually on your side, but it's easy to tell you don't hunt much. At least not in terms of fu cking knowing your game animals and how exponentially better their eyes are than yours. If you've seen them, there's very heavy odds they could see you first. If you're moving your fat ass without an effort to conceal your movement you'll instantly change their presentation from unaware to alert and that will make your shot that much harder....IF they give you the time to make it.

I'll repeat, because you didn't hear it the first fu cking time. You have plenty of time to range and dial at 400 yards.

If you don't, you suck at what you're doing.

Speaking out West.

Because they didn’t burn 20 points for the hunt. Drew a hunt they may only get once in their life. A 190/200” mule deer is almost a unicorn these days. As tags get harder to draw and trophy class animals become even more scarce, it will continue and get worse.

You can’t get “Insta Famous” with a 150” mule deer.

Not defending any of it, but it is the reality.

I heard you the first time, a deer walking on a timbered ridge at 400 yards may or may not give you time to do much, you spot them with binocs, then you range, check your chart, dial then shoot, why not just range, hold, and shoot. faster than a moa or mil reticle. where I hunt have saw many deer that just walk behind a tree and never come out and you never see them again.
here is an example of where I hunt. Its 307 yards to the cedars at the lower part of the pic at the field edge. have killed dozens of deer here

Yeah right. As imgur.com says, "The Magic of the Internet"

your choice not to believe it, not iike me to call a vet out, have to much respect for that, it is what it is,, thank you for serving

You're welcome, and thank you for the thank you. We don't hear it all that often.

Probably fewer than bow hunters.

Probably means he's not a good tracker.

No, you didn't hear me the first time.

If that deer is walking, there's no shot.

Plenty of time to range and dial though, and WAIT for a shot.

You act like you don't see many deer, and have to "hurry". Around here there's always another deer, and another opportunity. Let the sketchy shots walk.

You're defending haphazard holdovers and I'm saying buy an optic appropriate for the job and learn how to use it. Just the simple body size of the deer changes your point of impact because your references are different from one body size to the next, and can lead to an effed up shot. Learn something about ranging with a reticle and subtending target size, and you'll understand what you're being told.

Seen the same. I think all animals deserve a quick death.

Minus kiddie fiddlers…. Wing em and make em suffer

Are you really that stupid? deer do not just stand all day waiting to get shot, I am sure I have as good of optics as anyone and make use of them, this is not my first rodeo.
How many deer have you shot at a distance, your telling me to do what I do except for some reason you think dialing a turret is nessacary at less than 500 yards, do you wannna see my drop chart? zeroed at 300 yards my 6.5 gibbs will hit somewhere in a 9" circle from 100 to 400 yards. so dumbass you hold lower third of the shoulder to 200, dead on at 300, just under hair at 400. its not that hard for most folks, impossible for idiots. Remember, I use my ability not yours.
just so you know I use a Leica geo-pro, a kestrel 5700, teamed up with a loopy mark 4, have taken deer to 1350 yards, thats .77 miles and your saying I have to dial at 400 yards, man you gotta quit smokin that [bleep].

That no doubt struck a nerve.......

You keep on hitting "somewhere", and I'll keep on hitting where I paste crosshairs.

You're the arrogant know-it-all poster child for why people bitch about LR.

Congrats.

Another lame azz thread, with all the division in this country, you would think a bunch of hunters could get together and just talk hunting.


But...... fook no, hate and hunters disbarging each other, whatta a sorry azz pitiful lot of keyboard beating dipsticks....


Jeezus, give it a fughing break already

I totally agree with you.
I wonder if these people behave like that in person or is it just here that they lose all their modesty and empathy.

Lets consider most first shots on deer are cold bore shots how many here put a heavy en fesses on your first shot? no matter the range?
in the field first shots are more important than shooting a group on the range. Rio7

The majority of shooters don't have a 600+ yd range outside the back door. I find that my oil shot is the most unpredictable, besides the velocity it'll always slower.

This thread topic always informs far more about human psychology than it ever does about hunting. Sadly.
In my current part of the world, wounded game generally don’t last long. The coyotes eat them alive or dead. Doesn’t matter to the coyotes.

A funny story to hopefully add some joy: many years ago my FFA Chapter started a big game shooting match to raise money. We shot targets of course but we did it before the deer/elk seasons opened and ranges were set around those goals.
We built a running deer on a cable, roller and pulley system. The deer was life sized wood with a paper target over the vitals. Gravity and a push downhill from a risk adverse FFA kid started it running. Match’s were 5 shooters a flight. Rarely did we have more than one shooter on paper. My cousins obnoxious husband was up and the FFA kid pushed a little too violently causing the deer to bounce a bit a one roller jumped the track stopping the deer. He laughed and aimed at the still deer a while, touched off his shot and knocked the near side antler clean off. 100 yards off hand. We all got a good laugh at that.
We made a lot of money with those events funding our trip to the national Western Stock-show each year.
F01

That's a great test, but even more realistic would be to have the target start/stop at random intervals.

Any time I go after critters with a rifle that I have not hunted, I check for zero at the range I expect to employ said firearm.



If first shot cold bore is acceptable I do not fire a group.



Before I hunted the rifles above, I would check again for zero.

My idea, when you know you know and you know you know, confidence replaces hope/fear.

ya!

GWB

True Grit, Having a gun range on the ranch is handy, but it's 6 miles from my house I do everything everyone else does when going to the range, I just don't drive as far as some.

Did you ever think of putting up a target just for your cold bore shot, in addition to you other targets?

Once I have a hunting rifle shooting groups where I want it to, I start trying to get my cold bore shot located where I know it will go 99% of the time.

here's an example of what i'm talking about 10 shots at 1000 yards 8 hits 2 misses.



Cold Bore at 1000 yards





Cold bore again 1000 yards

I'm not a big fan of follow up shots at any distance I want to know where my first shot is going at any distance. Rio7

geedubya, Knowing where that first shot is going makes for happier results. Rio7

Same old bulls hit trod over again!

Didn’t read all the post , but people who do these long range shots are sometimes people who don’t do and realize the time and effort it takes to become efficient at this game
Myself ? Not a long range shooter , but know of lots of people who think they’re a crack shot cause they got lucky and killed a deer or bear at several hundred yds off handed
Then set down on a bench and shoot with them and they’re shooting 3-4” groups off a bench and you see how much of crack shot they really are
These same people go around continually taking these shots and do indeed Fugg up some game and billy bob sees this and puts them in a LR shooter class and gets an I’ll gotten opinion of it

Hell I went to a match a couple years ago and couldn’t even see the bulls eye at three hundred yards
Centered on paper and shot a good group , but score sucked
But the guys who had actually invested in upper level glass shot some fantastic scores
And this was just 300 yds
So I do get it that there are skilled shooters out there that are capable of getting it done .
Kenneth

......
Don’t have any field data on live animals - but can point directly to the results of Ridgway, PA long range varmint benchrest silhouette matches - where a winning score is in the low to mid 30s (out of 40) and the average score is in the low 20s. So 2-3 out of four shots are hitting a stationary target between 850-1000 yards (that would be the approximately size of vitals) - from the better shooters. I personally can’t imagine taking a shot at a living animal (that is moving or has the potential to move) at these ranges just so I could brag about how far I killed one. I have way more respect for the animals than I do a “hunter” that would take such a shot. Damn sad really that some need attention so bad that this is something they have to brag about.
....,.
PennDog

I'm going to respectfully disagree with the point you're trying to make here.
I've been shooting VBR at Ridgway since September of 2011.
I've missed one match since then .. I hit a deer with my truck in 2021. That makes 78 matches .
I'm currently in AAA class 17 pound gun, one match away....
One score of 31 or higher from getting into master class
Several year's ago I shot a match where I missed all 10 crows at 850 yards. It happens.
From what I was seeing spotting my own shots and the feed back of my spotter.
My misses were so close to the actual crow target I could actually say I don't think I missed any of those 10 crows by more than a inch.I was so close it was unreal.
Still 10 missed crows.
Pretty frustrating.
But my misses on the crows at 850. By the amount I missed them by. Would still put a bullet into the vitals of 10 deer.
Based of the size of a crow there is no doubt I'd have 10 dead deer laying out there.
Something for you to ponder.

dave

Agreed, but ya know the reality of this bs ?

It's always the short range, limp dick ED dikkhedds who start it, Lol !

You mean the Can't Do f-uckers who are SO happily wrapped up in their pitiful Can't-Do-Anything life that they unequivocally believe everyone else should do nothing just like them?

Yeah, they need to f-uck off, and stay there.....

ya, these Campfire cun ts

Great Summation Swamplord!

Exactly....

Q,

IIRC this Aoudad ewe was taken @ +/- 400 yds.



If I shoot critters @ 406 yds. or less, can an exception be made so that I might peruse the LR Forum?

Quien Sabe,

GWB

Geedubya - just proved what everyone is saying....missed by a good three feet. Or supershot was aiming for it's eye. Thats it!!!!

It’s a good thing for me that this dink antelope didn’t know he wasnt able to get killed at 650 yds with an 88 gr ELD-M… maybe then he’d not have flopped over..

This is always an interesting topic.

Should there be any limitations on any weapon type/ hunt?

No wasted meat with eyeball shots, may readjust the horns a tad though lol.

Beautiful rifle geedubya

The kids grow up so fast these days.

Good job.

Great question, and since this was a trolling thread to begin with, I see no reason to not derail it even further with social ponderings....

How about the operation a while back with a rifle set at a waterhole hooked up to some sort of computer and camera? If I remember correctly, a guy could sit on his couch drinking beer and wait for a critter to come to the water hole and the rifle could then be remote aimed and fired...Then you go retrieve your critter the old fashioned way or pay someone to, I guess.

Not by jam, but if someone else prefers to do it that way, who am I to complain? I won't, even though it was yet another piece of ammo for the antis.

Hunting by Remote

There's even a WikiPage
Internet Hunting

Never said I didn't or couldn't, have done so, but some people are just bent on trying to convince everyone else how great it is and how everyone should be doing it.

None of the so called "long distance shooters" on here will ever admit they missed or wounded one that got away.

It's a simple fact that the most casual observer would agree that long distance hunting is more likely to injure and not kill a game animal. Given the same shooter is pulling the trigger.

4" off of POA on a moose at 200 yards is still well within the kill zone, at 800 yards that's 16" and the moose limps away.

Just stating facts.

I have learned in life that the biggest braggers are usally the least competent at what they claim to be

Sounds like you just need to go cuddle up with Xspurt and pat each other on the back about being "real hunters".

Haha, why did you edit and delete?
Looked a bit like bragging to me, but good on ya for thinking.

Me saying show me where I bragged....is bragging?

That seems to be a common theme (piss & moan) for you, you're obsessed with someone "bragging". So, point out where all this bragging is on this long range forum. There must be a LOT of it, somewhere, to justify all your complaining about it.

I don't have the land to hunt at "long range" and likely never will. That said, I've seen enough deer wounded by slob hunters at close range with bows, shotguns and rifles to realize that most hunters should STFU and focus on how THEY hunt at the ranges THEY hunt and not worry about what OTHER hunters are doing.

Agreed. And when someone sees a “wounded” animal how the hell do they at what range it was shot. How about all the wounded that get taken out by coyotes and wolves that no one sees. Who logs those? Ridiculous

Long range hunting for me is 300-500 yards. I can do it, If conditions are right, and I can't get closer. It's still hunting, but beyond that it's pretty much just shooting - not hunting, in my (biased?) perception. I do shoot beyond that, at times - just not at animals. At least not since I bought a range finder.

There are those who can reliably place shots beyond that. At least some of the time. But they mostly aren't telling about their f'ups, either. Many others are not, either. The question is - what is the wind and/or animal doing in the elapsed time, trigger to bullet strike.

JJHack posted something like, " At long range about 100 things can happen. Only one is good". A mild exaggeration, probably. Still- why are elephants tried to be killed at less than 100 yards for the most part?

"I would be willing to bet the farm that a way higher % of animals have been crippled and lost by average hunters/shooters, than animals that have been crippled and lost by excellent hunters/shooters at long range."

No bet, with the semantics and the numbers. That being "excellent hunters/shooters at long range." vs what - self proclaimed "long range hunters" who aren't "excellent? or maybe even "average"? What % of self-aclaimed "long range hunters" are "excellent"?? How do you define "average", or "excellent"? Comparisons only count apple to apple.

Some years ago I saw a Canadian data report on accuracy of your "average hunter". It was pretty appalling!

Fuggin Canucks..... . Here in Lake Wobigonne, we are all above average.... .

I don't think Swamplord was being sarcastic. He seemingly believes that. Plenty of ego there. Perhaps rightly, I don't know. Assuming his record of past posts is accurate, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, his stated uber-boomer gear, range of shots, etc, & having never met him, hunted with him, etc.

I just don't believe in his philosophy.

The world ain't gonna end, for him or me.

My bet is there are a lot more wounded at close range than long. One word. Archery. That’s coming from a guy who hunts with a recurve, no sights and cedar arrows. Facts are facts. Guys who shoot long range are guys who buy a chit ton of equipment and invest a lot of time shooting and tinkering around with stuff to get it right. They split hairs for bragging rights. They’re likely ADD and OCD. Compare that to the guy that buys his ammo off the shelf, has a scope that is a “set and forget it” and checks zero with one shot at fifty yards two days before season. Unfortunately that is the majority of the hunting community. People on this site are the 1%. Even those who disagree with long range hunting. Not saying those here who don’t shoot long distance wound game. I don’t shoot long distances anymore as I prefer to track/stalk/still hunt with iron sights and my 35 Whelen with 250 grain RN bullets. Typical Fudd gear but, I also run a Nosler M-21 300 WM with 200 grain Terminal Ascent with a .608 BC at near 3K fps, with a mid range optic. Perfectly capable of knocking over game at distance. I don’t shoot as far as these fellas but I don’t condemn them for what I don’t or can’t do. I have in the past shooting crop damage and likely farther than I should have considering equipment limitations. That’s just what we had and we dealt with it.
Point is, those who are passionate about what they do don’t make mistakes very often and there is no group of people more passionate and dedicated than long range hunters. I’d put my money on them for success rate versus the weekend warriors that go out smelling like old spice and Marlboro reds and is more concerned about who’s going to be at the bar later on that day than when is the last time they shot their rifle.