Hey all I’m having the itch for a purpose built long range elk and mule deer gun and at a bit of a mental dilemma. I really like the looks of the new rem 700 long range I just can’t decide on caliber or if there are better options I’m not considering. I have a fondness for 7mm rem mag so I’m eyeing the 1-8 twist version (bring on the 180s!)but there’s also the new 7mm prc, or go full wild on a 300wm launching 215s.

I’ve read every post and forum I can get my hands on. Go to one site and nothing but a 338 edge or LM will kill an elk, go to another and they’re dropping elephants with 223. There’s gotta be some sanity in the middle I’m hoping. I’ve got a 3-12 lrhs sitting and ready for its new home.

So if you were in a position of looking for a new long range build what would it be chambered in? I’m leaning fast twist 7mm rem mag just because I’m set up for it and 180gr is still over 2k fps at bonkers yardages plus the lower recoil vs the wm should help me do my job.

Being the "longrange" forums, how far away do you intend your shots to be on an elk with said rifle? I guess I'll be the first one to ask that question. How long will the shots be in practice, on steel or paper?

My thoughts would be 1k yds paper. Farmers I work with give me more or less a limitless range to play on.

If having it built, how could you go wrong with a 7 Mag built to shoot 180s?
If factory, a 7 PRC will deliver same in a rifle more likely to have the magazine, chamber, and barrel twist already dialed in for the 180.

I'd go with one of the PRC's and the best glass you can afford.

Whatever you choose, use it for whatever range you want, regardless of what someone else says.

I ended up going the Fierce CT Rage route, in 7mm PRC. I'm trying out Berger 190's and 180's, Hammer 170's, Hornady 180's and 175's...

I topped it with a Zeiss V6 3-18x50

Accuracy is great, waiting on my new Garmin to complete load development.

Whatever you decide on, get to know it and enjoy!

A 1-9T 300 PRC, pretty much the ultimate long range hunting and target cartridge.

[video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/ZS1-AyGNhZk?si=vdk6sPWPWNa-_DYk[/video]

"ultimate long range hunting" ?

what's the velocity and energy with the 245 gr Berger bullets at 1500 yards & 1760 yards ?

Hell if I know. But according to most experts a elk cartridge needs to have at least 1000 ft-lbs of energy. A heavy 7mm bullet at 7mm PRC velocity runs out of elk killing energy at 1000yds. The 300 PRC doesn't run out till after 1400yds while shooting heavy for caliber bullets. It's only my opinion, but 400yds is a long ways.

Even if you accept the irrelevant metric of 1000 ft-lbs of impact energy, the 180 ELD launched in SAC at 2990 fps still has over 1000 ft-lbs at 1350 yards.

Either 7RM, 7WSM, or 7PRC, depending on rifle platform and on brass availability and quality, launching the 180 ELD-M at 2900+ fps would work very well.

I used Burger bullets and ballistic calculator at 2900. And for sure 1000ft-lbs is irrelevant. How much less will a heavier bullet drift in the wind with close to the same velocity and BC? And do you feel a bullets RPM has anything to do with wind drift?

It would be the turnkey package i bought last winter, 9 twist 9.5lb all up 300 PRC, can obviously easily carry it and shoot without the brake, i had the guy that built it make a thread protector, never fired it braked, 230gr Berger Hybrids and Hornady ATips at 2930 fps in ADG brass would do all i need done.

Rem 700 stainless in 7 mag. Bed it in a good stock, buy a very good piece of glass, work up a load, and hunt. Ain't nothing in North America taking a .284 Dia. At 175 to 180 grains.
300 win mag is a good choice too.

And that 1000 pounds of energy becomes very relevant at "long range"

Starts with 338

If your going custom, in my opinion I think a 7x300 win mag would be nice. Have Beretz throw up some mashburn stuff. Pretty cool rig.

The heavier bullet will have the exact same wind drift as a lighter bullet with identical muzzle speed and BC.

Wind drift does not depend on the bullet's rotational velocity, but rotational velocity does affect spin drift.

Not really. Sufficient impact speed to cause bullet upset and expansion is far more important.

I see what your saying. I get that speed translates into energy delivered upon impact, but what is speed without energy?

Shoot a 25-06 with a 100 grain bullet at 1000 yards.
Shoot a 7 mag with a 175 grain bullet at 1000 yards.

Both will reach the target within 100 to 200 fps of one another. Probably somewhere in the 1500 fps mark. That 25 will hit with a third the energy that the 7 will. Energy is the end goal. Not speed.

I’m pretty sure enough energy to properly upset the bullet is the issue.

Not energy for energy’s sake.

Thanks, I would of never figured that.

I’m putting my version together now. I picked up a Seekins Havak PH2 in 300win and a NF ACTAR 4x16 F2 scope. Even though I love my Sako 7STW, I went with the 300 because of brass availability (I’ve been struggling to find STW brass for too long). I chose the Win flavor over the PRC for similar reasons, and because my son’s, who will inherit my toys, just haven’t been bit by the reloading bug.

Long range means different things for different people. I’m focusing on 200 and 210g bullets because these are more than adequate for the ranges I can imagine shooting given wind and the propensity for animals to move at an inopportune time.

If I find myself wanting to shoot heavies, another barrel or rifle can readily be rationalized. Similarly, if I find myself regularly shooting beyond presently envisioned ranges, a higher magnification scope will be order. Just my 0.02.

It’s pretty easy to get inside 1,000 yds when hunting elk. Most are taken well inside 250 yds. The big ones are found in dark timber hell holes. The places most hunters won’t hunt.

You won't go wrong with a 300. I think if you'd grab yourself a simple reloading setup and a chronograph, you'd have way more consistency in your shooting. You'll know exactly what's happening and eliminate all guessing. You'll pay for that reloading stuff in the long-run.

An object cannot have speed without kinetic energy, nor kinetic energy without speed. The two quantities are directly correlated and proportional. But what matters most is enough impact speed to cause bullet expansion, which will translate into destroyed tissue.

Contrary to a decades old narrative, the quantity of interest is not kinetic energy (within reason), but impact speed. In your example above, if neither bullet arrives with enough speed to expand, then what does it matter if the 7mm bullet has 3x more energy? If both arrive with enough speed to expand and both have enough mass to penetrate, then they will both destroy bone and tissue. Gun writers have overhyped kinetic energy for so long that many guys see it as the primary quantity of interest, when in fact it is an important but peripheral quantity in the assessment of killing power.

Kinetic energy at bullet impact really only becomes relevant in extreme cases. One such case is if the bullet has enough impact speed to expand but lacks the mass (and therefore KE) to penetrate (e.g., a .177” 25 gr bullet impacting an elephant humerus at 2200 fps). But in the vast majority of reasonable cases, i.e., bullet weights and calibers that a reasonable person might use in a given hunting scenario, KE just is not the most important quantity in describing how well an expanding bullet kills. Impact speed matters far more.

Good Explanation Jordan

If you plan on using a brake, might as well get a 30 or 33.
You state speed is important, not KE, then in your example you say you need both speed AND mass to be of sufficient quantity. I'm no expert but isn't that the two components that make up kinetic energy? 1/2MV(squared)

OK. That's good and all, but of the two cartridges I used as an example, only one will arrive at the speed necessary to have good enough bullet performance. Not all cartridges are created equal. You have to have powder and bullet weight. No way around that. He's building an elk rifle, not a prairie dog gun. Once he decides on a cartridge that is adequate, that's when bullet construction can be decided.

As far as KE, think of a light, fast arrow versus a slow heavy one.
At 15 or 20 yards, it won't make a difference. At 30 it will factor. But the broadhead remains constant. A bullet needs both speed and weight to transfer into energy, enough that is to kill an animal of that size (the elk).

You have to have mass with the speed at those ranges or you have a pea shooter. Do whatever you wish, it's your deal, but for me, I want 1000 pounds at 1000. Shoot a good bullet and you'll be worry free, because whatever cartridge you decide, if you got that kind of energy at that range, you got speed, and you'll have bullet performance.

What I've been saying....

Never had any issues with faster twisted 7mm remington magnums shooting 180 scenar and 195 eol. If the OP is already setup for 7mm Rem, that would be the easy button to long range. Retumbo, H1000, RL26 for powders. Good luck.

Good to see you around buddy!

This has been the tough part for me to let go of. It’s been beat into me for so long you need at least 1500ft/lb to be humane or lethal. Letting that part go and looking more for well constructed bullet with adequate impact velocity and prioritizing shootability is something I’m trying to accept more vs just pour on more horsepower. Not at these ranges but it is amazing the results guys are having with 223 and 77gr tmk on large game.

I think the point is good bullets with similar BCs at similar velocities will both perform if aimed well.

Bigger bullets give a margin for error not available with smaller bullets, which is related to energy.

A velocity drops off, the effect of v squared drops off and mass and bullet construction play a larger role.

Hence the elephant example. Solids are not moving fast, but they are heavy for caliber and penetrate.

WDM Bell thought a solid (FMJ) 308 was the perfect round for elephant culling. Most miss that he wasn’t discussing shooting elephants who were charging, or otherwise riled up.

You don't need more horsepower, just enough horsepower. It's really pretty simple.

It all really comes down to what you consider "long range". If your long range is 500, take your 06 with 165s and have fun. If it's 1000, get some powder and a good bullet. Culling an elephant at 100 yards in the brain isn't even close to the same thing as an elk at 8500 feet at 1000 yards and a crosswind. Only one classification of dead. Use enough gun. You don't pull a 30 foot gooseneck with a toyota tacoma do you?

Lotsa ways to get to the end I think. The 7mm with a good bullet isn’t a bad way to start/finish. Moving on up in diameter you’ll just need a bit more recoil as you continue into the 30’s and larger.

Shooting elk at 1000 yards won’t be easy in practical practice or in the field. Just not something to be taken lightly at all.

One could always try a 338 Ultra Kurzerschwanzcompensator.

You have a reamer

My "reamer" ain't kurze.

Is it at least +P

That sounds like the reamer I have.

Since a ELD-X opens faster wouldn't it be a better long range bullet than the ELD-M?

I stated that KE IS important, but that it is not the primary quantity of interest. Perhaps the real issue here is that two quantities that are both important, mass and impact speed, are convoluted into one quantity called kinetic energy. The consequence of this convolution is that kinetic energy does not sufficiently describe the nature of the collision that occurs when a projectile hits a target. As a reminder from classical Newtonian mechanics, energy is the capacity to do work. Not the amount of work done, but the capacity to do work. That's an important point. Let's consider projectile mass and the resulting effect on kinetic energy and terminal performance. A heavy wad of paper may have more kinetic energy than a lighter steel ball bearing, and even though both have the same impact speed the paper wad will not penetrate nearly as well. Information gets lost when we consider only the kinetic energy, rather than the mass and impact speed individually. To continue with this example, given the construction of the paper wad, it requires much more mass to penetrate an animal than does the steel ball bearing. Kinetic energy alone does not describe the different collision outcomes.

You are correct in pointing out that kinetic energy is dependent on both mass and speed, but these two quantities should not be convoluted in the discussion about a bullet's killing effectiveness. "Sufficient" bullet mass is a complex specification that depends on bullet construction, impact speed, and target composition. Now, we're not talking about firing paper wads versus ball bearings at animals, and most bullets used to kill critters have sufficient mass and integrity to penetrate the target within a specified window of impact speed. Sufficient bullet mass can typically be taken as a given for any reasonable bullet one might choose, but impact speed varies with distance, muzzle speed, and BC. That is why I am suggesting that people should focus more on bullet construction and making sure their bullets arrive with enough speed to expand, and worry less about bullet mass and impact speed in excess of the minimum for proper expansion, and the corresponding kinetic energy.

There are a few misunderstood points here. First, you mentioned that both the .257" and .284" bullets arrive at about 1500 fps, which is generally below most bullets' minimum impact speed for proper expansion. Second, I'm not advocating for a .17 HMR as an elk rifle (although it can do the job in certain circumstances), and most reasonable bullets have enough mass to penetrate the animal. Given that kinetic energy is a function of only mass and impact speed, and enough mass is reasonably given, the only variable left (and the quantity of interest) is impact speed. Third, one of the flaws in the energy argument can be seen in your final statement about 1000 ft-lbs being the gold standard; an arbitrary amount of kinetic energy does not guarantee sufficient impact speed for expansion. Rather than set an arbitrary amount of kinetic energy and then assume that impact speed will be sufficient, why not set the minimum impact speed, based on the bullet manufacturer's specification, and assume that energy will be sufficient?

It's more directly related to a larger volume of tissue destroyed, which is "fueled" by kinetic energy.

Not really, bullet mass and construction matter just as much when integrity is strained during high-speed impact.

Purely in terms of impact speed and expansion, it depends. The ELD-M has a higher BC and will retain its speed further down range. So, even if the minimum impact speed for the ELD-M to expand is higher than that of the ELD-X, it may arrive with that higher speed further down range than the ELD-X will arrive with its lesser speed.

But there are other considerations in determining which is the better LR bullet, and the higher BC of the ELD-M has other benefits beside retained speed, such as less wind deflection, which gives a larger tolerance to any error in judging the wind, and is of paramount importance in the art of determining a net wind correction.

There is a reason that I have a lot of experience with various models of ELD-M and very little personal experience with the ELD-X.

Again I'm no expert..

But IMO sufficient bullet speed can typically be taken as a given for any reasonable LR scenario in which you choose to pull the trigger. If you're down the rabbit-hole far enough to know about these things, unless your hunting ELR, you've made several choices to ensure that you don't have to worry about adequate bullet speed at your self-imposed distance limit - which I would think everyone has.
Unless you just decide to 'send it' at an animal way out there, then velocity and other factors can bite you in the ass...

To the OP, do you plan to use a brake?

Energy discussions are Fudd talk. As Jordan says, all that is needed is enough velocity to upset/open the bullet to a usable diameter. The rest is mental masturbation.

As to a "purpose built" long range elk rifle, the world is full of great cartridges and rifle platforms. I'm not a LR hunter, and have no plans to be. I find joy in getting close. However, if so inclined, I still like the 300 WSM, but mostly I'd think hard about the 6.5 PRC or 7PRC. Whatever I chose would have an 18" barrel and a can.

i built my L.R. rifle 4 years ago Mark 5 action ,fiber stock i reglassed , Brux 28 inch , contour heavy 4 ,338 Lapua my new reamer , muzzle brake , 8-32x56 Nightforce Picatinny mnts. trigger reworked , rifle shoots excellent weighs 14 lbs. with 6 loaded cartridges in boot and a sling.

Once you see the wisdom of deprioritizing energy as the main quantity of interest, as Jordan says, you can place more priority on recoil and mass of the rifle as Scotty alluded to. Instead of the .300 PRC being the be-all end-all and the 9.5 pound rifle you'll need to shoot it well, you could maybe go with the 6.5 PRC or 7 PRC in a lighter package. I'm not an elk hunter but, hope to be some day. I recently approached your problem by choosing the platform first. How much do you want this thing to weigh? Then, I knew I wanted high BC, heavy for caliber bullets somewhere around 2,900. OK, in what caliber will I be able to shoot those bullets well given the weight of the rifle and resulting recoil.

All those PRC cartridges (and their equivalents) kill elk way out there. But you've got to shoot them from a rifle.

But Jordan, 1500 or 1600 fps IS what they are gonna arrive at.
Never said anything about a 17hmr.
Mass this and mass that. That .257 and .284 bullet is the same weight at 1000 as it was at the muzzle.
I said 1000 ft-lbs is the gold standard because that's an adequate number at 1000 yards.
Be as it may, if it's got the BC, weight, and speed, it'll have the energy and ok ok, the bullet, well some bullets will upset and cause tissue damage. So, after all this, I will again, recommend the feller buy a 7 rem or a 300 win. I'm sure you'll get some tissue damage with one of those cartridges reliably out to 1000 yards.

Also, is this a dedicated elk rifle to be used every day year in and year out on blm and public, or is this a guided private land rifle.
If it's a guided deal, I'd suggest use what you already own as the shot will be inside 3 and 500. If it ain't, look for a different outfitter.

Lastly, Jordan, what cartridge would you recommend?

Given that Lapua just announced new .300 WSM brass, I’d likely build another 7WSM and use Lapua to form cases via a false shoulder. A 7WSM launching the 180 ELD at 2900+ fps from Lapua cases sounds pretty good.

Don't build or buy a short mag.
They offer nothing over a standard 7 rem.
In the reality of things, nothing does.

At the elevation where I live (4555), a 18" 7mm Dakota with a 175 ELD-X (2900 MV), still gives me 1800 fps impact velocity at 1000 yards. I also have ran 180's (hybrid) right at 2900 fps out of a different 18" 7mm Dakota.

Or you can use Lapua or Peterson 300 & 338 Norma brass formed via false shoulder to the 7mm NMI and launch 195 gr Bergers & 197 SMK's at 3250 fps

Y'know ... a REAL long range cartridge

I do not have a specific chambering for you, but rather, I would look at specific performance level (MV), depending on the barrel length and bullet you are considering.
For myself, I have no need to go above a 7mm for elk, and a 6.5 will work too.

Once you figure out what your real-world max hunting distance is when shooting from field positions (have you done that?), then I would look at what barrel length you want and then go from there.
There is a lot of ways to skin this cat...

What do you think is your real world hunting MAX distance?
What is the furthest you have killed a big game animal before?
What kind of practice opportunities do you have at distances beyond 500 yards?

Having spent considerable time with both 7WSM and 7RM, I’ll disagree with you there.

Behold ...

What a REAL Long Range Hunting cartridge looks like and what it can do .... do the math .... if'vn you can count

Anything with a case capacity below 100 grs and the inability to drive 190-200+ gr bullets above 3100 fps is NOT a LRH cartridge !

No matter how some squeal ... The numbers prove that to be true

Some of you may shoot "mid range" cartridges but they certainly are not long range effective killing machines


sorry to burst your "headstamps don't matter" stupidity based on Hornadyism fanboy induced nonsense ...

They sure do ... in REAL long range that is ...,,

Some have automatically attempted to make exclusions to LRH by attributing distance to some perceived cartridge that makes a "tink" sound on steel & barely punches paper at 1xxx yards ... But will it kill an elk, moose or brown bear at 1500 -1760 yards ? Y'know... at long range .....
All this bullschlitz talk about recoil is both revolting and concerning for the future of American men... If I accidentally misgendered any of you .... I don't give a floating, flying or crawling fk ... but will address you in a politically correct manner as Ma'am, you at least deserve that much for your weakness

Long Range Hunting requires heavy bullet mass/weight, high velocity with a seriously high bc bullet and must be supremely accurate to effectively reach the target an terminate it with absolute precision


you can't get that in dinky 6mm to 7mm cartridges

I like to get really familiar with my barrels, so I like them to last more than 500-800 rounds. I also have no need to burn that much powder to hit things at distance and get good terminal performance.

How much difference is there if you run both cartridges at the pressure? Or are you talking the accuracy between the cartridges?

What does your 375 Mercenary and your 338 Skuldryl weigh with your scope?

Muzzle speed potential is so close between them so as to be indistinguishable for my purposes.

Brass longevity, necessary trimming frequency, potential pressure excursions due to a combination of shoulder angle and neck length, ease of working up precise loads, mag length requirements when using long bullets, etc., all favour the 7WSM.

Don't forget the 416 Hamsplitter.

I weighed the 338 Skuldryl with scope and a full 5 round mag of ammo before but can't give you the exact weight right now, it has a #5 contour 26" Rock Creek bbl set in a Manners stock, probably 8-10 lbs loaded,



The 375 Mercenary is right at 14 lbs with a 32" Rock Creek bbl

Cool-Thanks!

Is that what you call your wife ? or sister ?

No.... Niece ?

Ok I get it .... That was your pet name for your drunckle that split your hams

good for you to come clean in public, I bet it was totally gaytastic for ya

Just out of curiosity what drew you the 7wsm vs saum and I’m assuming prc wasn’t available at the time?

Well, different strokes for different folks.
What does it offer that a 7 RM don't.
I guess you can use a short action? Feeding problems? Not as much powder capacity? It beats a 7 mag in now way shape or form when handloaded and used for long range hunting.

With an 8 twist barrel and proper throat nothing really is better than the 7 Rem Mag for a hunting rifle with lots of reach.

The rifle really is not a 7mm RM anymore if it is not to SAAMI spec but the 7WSM is hamstrung even more by it's SAMMI specs.

LOL.

Nothing with a #5 26 inch barrel is getting anywhere near 8# loaded. Unless you leave to scope off and saw the stock in half.

You really love to polish bullets and cases. It's a tell on your deviant fetishes. It really is a tell.

If a 7.5- 8lb rifle is a deal breaker between a 9-10 lb one you need to back away from the dinner table a little.
I dont see why everbody thinks the New Lapua 300WSM brass is a game changer if you've shot much ADG brass you would know its just as good.
I know a really good BR shooter who shoots the 300WSM ADG brass and has no intention of changing but he said he will test it.
You guys are splitting C hairs between the 2

Lots of really good posts here by some very knowledgeable & experienced people.

We once had 2 areas in Idaho, neither of which were overly rugged to hunt, compared to really mountainous terrain like maybe the Hoback area of WY.

But there were really a lot of big, high scoring animals there, especially deer & as a rule shots were always looooog, with a few exceptions & hunting was almost all spot & stalk or spot & shoot. And if you weren't pretty prepared to shoot longer than typically, then you simply weren't going to shoot as getting closer was frequently just not possible due to the terrain.

Some built purpose built rifles specifically to hunt those areas; I built a long-throated 300 Win with a heavy, stiff & stable barrel, all up, that weighted more than 10 lb.

Another guy built a 30-378 the we called the Big Gun & it weighed 13+ lb.

As I recall, there were some animals killed at about 750, longest I killed an animal was a little more than 500 which with good conditions is not all that difficult.

But any rifle to be useful needs to be able to reasonably carried & 10 lb is a load; 13 lb is beyond realistic for most normal people in rough terrain for a 10 mile day on foot, or even 5 miles.

So practicality becomes a consideration as does field recoil.

750 yards is very long under variable field conditions & 1000 is almost laughable for MOST, non-specially trained or exceptionally talented hunters, certainly not for most casual hunters or Shooters that are enchanted witn "LR Hunting".................my opinion is that's no longer hunting, that's just shooting.

I limit myself & will never hunt with a target stocked rifle or extreme "LR" clambering.

My rounds now all fall within the mundane & have no belts nor are of magnum case volumes.

It's not hard to build a LR Rifle, but 1,000 yard genuinely capable 1,000 yd hunters or even Shooters are about as rare as hen's teeth under field conditions............just being able to drag the heavy artillery piece from your car to the firing line on a range & & hitting steel at whatever range you want to brag about is not the same as doing it in the mountains under field conditions.

YMMV

MM

Nothing wrong with the SAUM, but I wanted to be able to push 180s at 2900+ fps without redlining peak pressure. The PRC will likely become a great option, but brass availability and quality currently favours the other big 7s.

See above. I handload for match grade 8" twist barrels on LR-capable hunting rifles in both chamberings.

I haven't played with ADG .300 WSM brass, given that it's harder to source up here than is Lapua. Thanks for pointing this out, though. I'll keep my eye out for some ADG to try.

I know what I'd be buying/building.
7 Rem with a number 3 finished at 26 inches. 8 twist.
No brake, supressor, nothing. 700 action and a micky, bedded, then topped with a mark 5 leupy. That would be the ultimate bomber in my book.

I went 264 win mag and love it, but it's not as good as the 7. Just an honest opinion.

Surprised nobody mentioned 28 Nosler

Throwing a lot of logic out there MM. Are any of these guys going to pick it up? Sounds like they like axle shafts for barrels though. It doesn't take that to shoot 1,000 yards consistently. Someone mentioned 300WSM, that is a great cartridge, and it doesn't take a #5 axle shaft or 26" for one of those to work really well.

A rifle (Tikka T3X 300WSM) I recently sold to one of my buddies, weighs 7.4 pounds scoped, and it's a sledge hammer. Even at 1,000 yards, given the right nut behind the butt.. That's shooting in the prone, as you said, other field positions can be different. I don't know if the OP plans on shooting from an elevated platform 100 yards from his truck, but I for damn sure would not be packing around a 10 or 13 pound rifle where I hunt elk.

LMAO! You finally checked out what I do for a hobby and the only thing you could come up with is "polish bullets and cases" lol !

Ya, I've always hated pics that don't display a product properly, like they are trying to hide something .... Like what you do with the garbage you try to sell to people that don't know any better

The realization that what you have done with your worthless products that don't work as you claim, false advertisement and all, & still can't come remotely close to what I've developed ..

Keep trying Burnstein, one day you might actually design something that may work as you claim and make an honest dollar, but I doubt it, you are all about ripping people off by selling junk that does't work, It's too bad your presence is making Wyo Arms lose so many potential customers & revenue, they really need to cut ties with you in order to make any form of profit

As for long range hunting ? You ain't got a clue what that really means.... The cartridges you use to shoot at animals antlers at 600 yards are what we call mid range... and you still fkn missed the intended target, lol

Now that is telling

10lb 30-28 with pack on my back hunting the Rocky Mountains alot of times climbing 1500-2000' vertical feet no trails either.
I guess some can and some can't.
One place I hunt the road is 3700' and hunt alot at 6000' 6200' straight up from the truck.

Never done anything Internet Rando hiding behind a screen name.

Interesting discussion.

Cool to see all the different stuff that works for people.

I was messing with my made in 1958 338 today with 250 Scenars. RL26 and it seem to be getting along decent.





It should hit stuff pretty well.

Maybe not needed but it’s in the locker and hasn’t hunted in a couple years….

Nice looking rig there Scotty.

Hitting staples at 100yds (assuming) should work! Nice group.

That doesn't have near the juice of the 338 Skullfuck.

Just saw a picture of the 416 Hamsplitter in Warren Page's The Accurate Rifle. The ultimate elk rifle apparently:

It’s for my wife and daughter to use

Thanks Brad. That was old faithful before Bob got me into my first Mashburn…. Still is a good old rifle.

Fun to bring the old rifles into modern times with the great bullets and powders we have now.

Still working through this thread so haven't read the whole thing yet, but this caught my eye. I had a Kimber 325 WSM I wanted to do something with and went back and forth between 7 WSM and 7 SAUM. At the time, 7 WSM brass was unobtainium and 7 SAUM ADG brass was. I could have gone 7 WSM with necked down 300 WSM brass, but the SAUM had more appeal at the time. I ordered a couple hundred ADG cases and built the SAUM and have no regrets.

I'm getting 2910-2920 with RL26 and 180 Scenars with no pressure issues. H1000 will get around 2850 with 180's. 24" Lilja 1:8...

ADG is a game changer in my book. They’ve filled a niche for awesome brass no one else did/wanted to and they seem to sell every piece they can.

Your 7 SAUM sounds like a beast.

That'll do just fine...............338 Win is a great round; I've had 5 of them, down to one now. Most are very accurate, IME.

What stock is that?

MM

The .338 Skullfuck is a better choice for those who spend hours slowly polishing, back and forth, their bullets before taking multiple photos of the massive projectiles aimed toward the heavens like a phallus aimed at the very Gods.

So, yeah, not a great choice for anyone without a syndrome and a need to compensate for other issues.

My 28 Nosler is hell on elk. 26" barrel, 2" Terminator T3 Brake, 180 Berger Hybrids with a Zeiss HD5 is hard to beat.

I am thinking hard on giving them a try out of my Ruger 338. Never had an issue with the 210gr PT that I use, but something slickier couldn't hurt. Pretty sure I could cover all my bases with the 3 big game rifles with various sizes of Scenars. 6.5-139/136gr; .30-155gr; 338-250gr.

It’s a Legend MM.

Pointer, I can’t see them being bad. I’ve seen 220’s from the RUM and 139’s do great. Also the 150’s from 7’s doing very well.

Looking forward shooting it some more. Adds a little bit of legs to the 338.

From a reloading standpoint which would be easier to dial in rm vs prc? Sounds like you’re contending with an unused belt on one and clicker issues on the other. Also helps narrow rifle choice down

Prc
Xbolt
Bergara ridge
Savage trial hunter

RM 1-8 twist
700 Long Range (worried bout weight)
Xbolt

With weight being a issue, I would lean toward the Bergara Ridge myself.
There are dies that can handle the clicker issues.
I am just not a X-Bolt fan, and opinions vary, so go with what you want.
E

That's what I'm hoping to do, add some legs! I need to get some 30mm rings for my Ruger and mount one of the SWFA 6Xs I have laying around, or put the 6X on my Tikka 22LR and put the SWFA 3-9 on the Ruger. From what I've seen of the 139gr out of my 260 Rem, I can't imagine the 250s out of the 338 not being enough for anything I'll have point it at. Thinking I do need to kill a whitetail with it next year. Guessing the neighbors will be able to tell when I've shot!

There is no dies that are gonna handle the PRC clicker issue unless you use the .535 reamer that Mansion or JGS puts out.
I guess some dont get that you can only size brass back so far and on the PRC its .530

I get it.
I thought Cortina's dies were in 7mm PRC, but they are not yet. (6.5 PRC & 7 PRCW .532 chambers at .200″ line)
It would be pretty easy to clean up a chamber with either the Manson or JGS reamers.

I just guess it depends on what you want

It's funny how most LR threads immediately devolve into algebra. Numbers are not as important as the human being shooting the rifle. Whether or not one is willing to shoot a brake/ported rifle, or carry an 11 pound rifle, is more important. I'm not and I'm not.

All depending on a reasonable cartridge choice, of course, which is usually a given. The 7mm shines with a 180 grain bullet because most shooters can handle the recoil without a brake. Not for a few shots, but for regular practice. A 30 cal rifle delivering the same performance kicks quite a bit harder. It's fairly easy to get either bore rifle in the 8.5 to 9.5 pound range, which is, on average, optimal.

The 7 WSM, and to a degree the 7 SAUM, suffered due to brass availability IMO. There's a chance the 7 PRC will not. IMO, it's a challenge to justify a custom rifle in these calibers, due to the abundance of overall good-shooting rifles made today. If someone wants special features and is willing to pay for them, more power to them. Either way, long live the 7 mm.

Why not just do it right the first time?
It will only clean up if the previous chamber matches the reamer other than the back end unless you set it back.

6.5 prc or maybe a 6mm-7prc.

The elephant in the room you all see & know but refuse to believe your own lying eyes , lol !

I used the 6X SS on my 338 quite awhile. I just put a Trijicon on it and decided to try something new. All goes well it'll get into an elk this year.



Nothing bad to say about the 6X SS though. Great scope for alot of uses.

Agree with Jordan here. Had, a few 7 “Mags”, never cared for them. Having spent considerable time with the 300 Wby, 7 Wby, 300 WSM, 7 WSM, I easily chose the much preferred 300 WSM & 7 Wby with no reserve.

Regardless, i prefer to hunt my critters 350 yds & under. It’s more like hunting.

Damn Scotty, now that's making me want to try some heavy scenars in my 338wm!!!! Mine is as old as yours, but with a custom barrel. Love those old rifles.


I thought this was about setting up a LR elk rifle though. I'd use mine, with the above load out to 500 yards, but that's about max. Even with the 250gr SGK, I'd probably only shoot it at 500 yards. Haven't really had to shoot at an elk at that distance, but I guess there's always that chance. You are going to make me pull mine out and shoot it further out, just to see what it can do.

That sounds like a contender for sure.

It is well proven. Elk, and coues deer to 700 are light work.

A lot to be said here, 300gr Scenars leaving at 2900 fps hammer the holy hell out of 5, 7, 9 and 1100 yard steel, have read that's not a hunting bullet, but i think that's BS!

Nice looking rig Beretzs.

I bet. I've seen some guys with the 28 Nosler at the range, they usually shoot well. One thing I get a kick about is guys thinking they can consistently hit the vitals on an elk at 1,000 yards. To me, that would require a first round hit. I've shot a lot at 1,000 yards ,but have never seen anyone hit a 10" steel plate on the first (cold bore) hit ever. I'll do it on occasion, but it's about a 50/50 chance. Just being honest, and you have to be honest with yourself when you are shooting at a big game animal. I was just watching a video on longrange shooting, and some of these guys have some pretty tricked out rifles, yet, they are not making first round hits.



Check out some of these rifles, you have some that you have to hold up on the mag box so they feed, you have some where they are not ejecting, some are rough feeding POS's. Definitely not an elk rifle, but they are built to shoot well, and these guys are not making very good hits. Some 8,9 or 10th round hits, if they even hit the target at all. Some shots wouldn't even hit the body of an elk. In this video, they were shooting in very good conditions too. Add some wind to the mix, and the hit ratio goes way down.

When you say 700 is "light work", it sure can be. Stretch it out to 1,000, and see what happens. I know, everyone thinks they can hammer stuff consistently at 1,000 yards. They should call this guy up, and see if they can get on one of his videos.

Here's another video:

How much do you guys think that guy has into that Accuracy International AT308 with the Schmidt and Bender scope?

That is the coolest moose photo I have ever seen, Excellent!

Neat stock too

Looks like ADG brass is priced at about $350 per 100 cases up here, or about $150-200 more than Lapua and Alpha. I'm certainly looking forward to Lapua .300 WSM hitting the shelves.

Somebody is laying the screws to you on the ADG brass I paid about 200.00 for a 100 shipped when I bought my ADG 300wsm brass. In the U.S. the Lapua and ADG are on par with each other here in the U.S give or take on different calibers

I built myself just such a rifle. I chose 338 Norma for several reasons and have not been disappointed. I got to use it in December. I shot an elk at 930 ish yards. I'm not convinced the 300 grain Scenar is the bullet to use but it's easy to hit with and seems to be big enough. The elk is quite tasty i might add. Had flatirons steak yesterday and stirfry today.

I have no desire to stretch to 1,000 for several reasons. The biggest being that I would never, in any situation shoot at an animal that far. I am confident and comfortable to make lethal shot to 700, 800 in the right conditions. Even that is stretching it. I cringe when I see people shooting 1,000 yards at animals, that's not for me. Especially when people are doing it with 6.5 Creeds.

Who have you observed shooting at elk at 1k yds with a 6.5 creed?

I really don't care what distance people kill big game animals, as long as they are adept at it, and the weapon/bullet is capable of it at that distance.
If it is legal, you and your weapon are up to the task, whether a matter of feet with a spear or distances that I know I would never pull the trigger, go for it. That's your business.

I also don't care if you want to set up a rifle for killing elk at a grand or at 1500 yards.
Set up 10 different ones, if that suits you.

Regardless of what you have, before you go hunting, actually practice from field positions on targets that are the size of the vitals or smaller, and intentionally shoot at your max distance with your first shot from a field position (Cold bore shot).

This will teach you so much, if you will pay attention.
Each time you go out, try this, and you won't feel real salty about yourself, but it will give you a better idea of where you are at in specific conditions.

Who knows, you may need to shorten your MAX distance for game or maybe you can actually extend it...

On a good day I can get many newbies on steel out to a grand with 15" 223 Remington, 6 Creed, or 308 Win (15.75").
Are they qualified to hunt at distance? No
Were they being coached on fundamentals, and getting input as they continued to shoot? Yes
Do they probably suck at reading the wind still? Yes
Was their hit at a grand a cold bore shot? No. I have never started a newbie at a grand.
Were they shooting from a weird field position? No
Did they have to shoot on demand? No
Did it matter how many times it took them to get on steel at a grand? No
Was their target bigger than the vitals of a big game animal? Sometimes yes, and sometimes no
Do I want them to be happy and proud of themselves? Yes

Actually practice at distance...

Your gun may be the the uber-ELR rifle of the world, but if you suck at the fundamentals and at adjusting for the atmospheric conditions, including wind and terrain, keep your shots within the distances you have proven to yourself you can consistently do for that shooting circumstance.

Good catharsis...Time for more coffee

+1

Great post.

With an outer limit of 800 yards, you’re really not all that far from 1000, yourself. With a few more years of shooting and improvement, maybe your comfort and confidence with extend to 1000. Other than terminal performance limits, distance is just an arbitrary number, assuming your skills and abilities are up to the task.

And for discussion, I have a 6.5CM load that retains 1775 fps and 1025 ft-lbs at 1000 yards in favourable but realistic weather conditions where I hunt.

All of the fundamentals you list and discuss in this post are encountered in local, casual fun matches.

And yet you don’t believe in participating in them to fast tracking improvement that directly applies in real world hunting situations

🤣

quote=rcamuglia]

All of the fundamentals you list and discuss in this post are encountered in local, casual fun matches.

And yet you don’t believe in participating in them to fast tracking improvement that directly applies in real world hunting situations

🤣[/quote]

For you to again suggest that I don’t believe in participating them, is absolutely wrong.

I typically do one or two matches like you have described above every year.

What I have said as well, is that you do not have to be involved in these kind of shooting disciplines to become competent for hunting at longer ranges.

6.5 creed is an impressive little cartridge. Does nothing a 260 or 6.5x55 hasn't already done for a handloader, but whatever floats your boat. It's not an elk cartridge. It has killed elk, ut that doesn't make it an elk cartridge.
I find myself a stauch 30-06/280 rem fan with an appreciation for good 7 rem mag. I can't believe I'm saying this, but a 7 prc may actually be an equivalent to anything you'll ever need. If I wanted to kill elk and not just shoot targets, I would actually build a rifle set up around 1 specific bullet. In this case I'd go with a 175 accubond lr. I think that bullet with the correct powder in a prc would be a stomper to a grand.
I do think as well, that a 7 rem mag throated for that bullet would probably beat that prc in velocity at the muzzle, but I'll bet when you run the numbers, they are so close at 1000 in velocity and energy that that bullet will be one in the same in performance.
With all this said, I'm gonna stop diving into this comparison, because it may cost me a trip to my smith and about 5 or 600 on a rebarrel. Then dies, brass,.....

Well said 10. Common sense is great to see.

Your smith works cheaper than mine. When I decide to send a gun to a gunsmith it becomes a money pit. It's going to shoot no matter what it takes.

Your smith works cheaper than mine. When I decide to send a gun to a gunsmith it becomes a money pit. It's going to shoot no matter what it takes.[/quote]

If you already got the barrel, it'll be 275. Thread, chamber, headspace.

Gonna wait for the Ruger American Gen 2, then I’ll give the 7PRC a go.

I’ve seen it in $7,000 rifles and $600 rifles and it does well in both.

Well I’m pretty well narrowed to either an adl rem 700 7RM build or Rem 700 long range 7RM and have it fluted and threaded. Looks like fluting can pull 3/4 of a pound or so out of it.

About 1000 YouTube videos.

Looks like one little nudge and you'll be over here on the Dark Side, Coyote10!

Boy, it didn't take much eh!

Bet you'll love it and if you want to cut weight there's some good light weight stocks out there, too. I love my Outkast Arms NULA stock. I think, besides being super light the design mitigates some of the felt recoil. Glenn will full-bed your 700 build for a reasonable price.

He held out a few months - a valiant effort!

I could feel him falling for it. Trying to fight it....

A real American dollar says you're next buddy!

I am not against one in the least. Just not sure what I'd love to have as far as a rifle to wrap around it.

Be sweet in one of your pre64 70's, I bet.

It'd be an EASY changeover in any of the P64 magnums. No messing with mag boxes or nothing. Feeding is likley quite good out of the gate as well. The 35 Newton (375 Ruger reformed) would feed great through my old rifle with just plain old cases out of the magazine.

Sounds like a killer!

This is a common cartridge case converted to AI - a rather inexpensive conversion, Dies are (at least were) readily available from RCBS, a long action would be required, the action likely can be had at a reasonable price from a donor rifle, finished price including stock, and barrel should be pretty reasonable unless you go with a very highly recognized (expensive) custom rifle builder. If you’re not recoil sensitive, the complete package can be had in a very “hunter friendly weight (under 10# assuming a fairly heavy scope is used) and length.

With a couple of assumptions made: the shooter is capable of shots exceeding 1000 yards, the shooter can “dope” wind accurately at long range, the rifle/cartridge/bullet is capable of the needed accuracy @ 1000 yards, a rangefinder is used to adjust for fairly significant bullet drop which is the easy part of the shot. This should more than satisfy the ft/lbs energy that many see as important for elk sized game.

It may not be a desirable choice by many, but checks many boxes pretty good. memtb

What common cartridge can fire a 270 grain bullet 3100 fps?

Under 10#’s with a scope?

😆🤣

I'd like to thank Scott for that nudge...😆

I’m not sure how I get credit.. I said I’d stick with the 7 Rem Mag if I was building..


But I’ll take the credit

I was in my local gun shop and two different retail stores within 50 or 60 miles of my house and they were loaded to the hilt with prc ammo. Not one single box of 7 rem. I pulled a 7 prc cartridge out of the box and thought it didn't look too shabby. Looked at some numbers with 175s and decided it might be a good one for what I do. Would I take a 7 rem and re-barrel? No way. But a build from scratch, absolutely. Yall are enablers. Can't have too many hunting rigs!

I already have the Borden Alpine action, McMillan Stock, Brux barrel, trigger, and brass for my 7mm PRC build.
Just waiting for my 25-284 to be finished first.

My “only” hunting rifle since 1990. Actually it weighs 9 pounds 1 ounce, scoped, loaded, slung. I used 10# in my post as my 3.5-10 Leupold is considerably lighter than the scopes that a lot of the LR hunters/shooters use.

I personally will never shoot game at 1000 yards……this was to primarily show that getting 1000 ft/lbs energy @ 1000 yards isn’t that difficult in a rifle with generally available components, and actions in a reasonably priced build.

The base cartridge case is fairly common as it’s been around since 1912 and has been a very popular hunting cartridge on most every continent since it’s conception. As stated it was converted to an Ackley Improved…..a very simple, common, and inexpensive conversion. I will not suggest that every 24” barrel will/can give you 3100 mv…..but, that’s what I was getting during load development this past summer. I expect my velocities to be somewhat less in hunting conditions…..and hope to go out soon and run a few over the chrono with temperatures around zero F.

To directly answer your comment…..a .375 AI. I did fail to mention that it’s not in the middle…..I should’ve read the OP’s criteria a little better. Though inthe world of big game cartridges….. it’s considered a “medium bore” ! 😉 I was reading through the many comments about ft/lbs energy, and brought this to the forefront! memtb

Depends on what someone considers long range. If you’re serious for game at 800 - 1000 yds you’ll need to spend some coin. Roughly spending $3,000 on a barreled action, $700 for a stock and around $2,000 for optics at a minimum. Its fairly easy to acquire an OEM rig from Remington, Howa, Ruger, Kimber, etc., and get a MOA rifle. You can tweak it by bedding, reloads and range time. You don’t cut corners on optics and that’s where the majority of money goes.

If you acquire an OEM or have an older 7mm Rem Mag, you already have a long range rig. Even with a 9.5 or 9.25 twist barrel you can stabilize a 175 grain Berger Elite Hunter (BC .656) yielding 3,000 fps velocity and 3,500 ft-lbs at the muzzle. At 800 yards you’ll have about 34” of drift, close to 2,000 fps impact velocity and about 1,500 ft-lbs of energy. I can’t figure out why so many folks want to dump their 7 Rem Mags for a twist rate. You already have great capabilities with high BC 175 gr bullets and with that you also have 3,000 fps launch which is pretty optimal when you consider bullet weight and form/BC combined with high velocity.

Even if you never go to that distance you’ll have a great rig at 500-600 yards and it won’t cost an arm and a leg. Most factory rifles today can be fine tuned to yield 0.4” - 0.7” MOA. That would give you between 3.2” - 5.6” leeway for accuracy and hitting vital zone at 800 yds if you do your job.

It only depends on how serious and dedicated one becomes as a long range hunter. 500 yds is a very long poke on a game animal for most, 800 yds at game is for serious hunters with shooting skills. Equipment matters, however training and experience in the field matter way more IMO.

Pretty well said. A fella with a good 7mm shooting a moderately good bullet is a great place to be.

To everyone, I want to offer a sincere apology…..somehow, I used the wrong BC number for my data. I have no idea how I did it…..I didn’t switch numbers around, I didn’t get a line off on the chart, no explanation for my screw-up ! memtb

Well, it took a bit, but I found my mistake. When making an updated chart, I saw and used the “corrected BC” from a previous chart. Dumb ……I know!

With the correct BC……the difference is huge! With my bullet, it’s barely a 1000 yard cartridge because of the bullet expansion velocity window……and that’s using the Barnes’ minimum listed expansion velocity. memtb

Long range shooting is nothing new to me, but I typically hunt at "normal" ranges, under 500 yards.

I do like the 7mm Rem Mag and recently the 7 PRC for those long shots. Heavy, high BC bullets. Best velocity I can get coupled with accuracy. I tend to shoot the 7's better than the 30 cal magnums, though of course individual rifles will vary a lot in that. Did have a 300 WSM that I shot real well. Sold it off a while ago. Probably shouldn't have.

Lots of answers as to what a hunter should use for long range elk. Whatever it is, be sure to shoot it well in practice to be truly ready for that shot in the field.

Regards, Guy

Not that I have the itch or want, but went on a trip to South Africa with a fellow in our group that had a Rem 700 custom built in 338 Ultra Mag, with a 29" barrel. I spotted for him using my x18 scope. That 338 Ultra with 225s was quite impressive. He said he had been practicing for two years, in order to take long range shots on plains game, his years of practice and the power of the 338 ultra was very apparent. Some of those African plains game critters are big, like 1,200 #s, live on mountain sides and are very wary.

Rapier, if I were starting over today, and not wanting to hunt any of Africa’s Big 5…..I’d strongly consider the .338 RUM. It seems to be one of the best introductions from Remington since the 7 Mag. And, I don’t like the 7 Mag. 😉 memtb

700 Remington Sendero in 300 RUM. Cartridge is a hammer accurate, flat shooting, and it can go yard and drop anything in its tracks. I own both a 338 RUM Sendero and 338 Lapua Rem 700, and I'd reach for that 300 RUM. Next would be the 338 RUM Sendero.

Not everyone is lucky enough to afford a porter to carry said rifle. Perfect LR road hunting set up me thinks. Lol.

What bullet, powder, charge, seating depth etc are you using? I've got a 378 Weatherby that will achieve what you're describing but it requires about 15% more case capacity than your 375 AI and a longer barrel. I'm finding it difficult to believe you're getting those velocities with a 24 inch barrel without being over 70K psi.

You make a strong case. I still have an AWR in 7 RUM but with the days of hold and hope over with the dialing of scopes nowadays I use a 1/8” 7 mm Remington with 180 vld hunting. If I was going to do it I would build the 7 but in a package that ended up between 8 and 9 lbs.

Would you add Staball HD to the powder recommendations?

I have been goofing with it a little lately. Seems neck and neck with Retumbo in my 300 RUM. Need to try it in some more spots since I kinda like the copper eraser part of it.

Not trying to offend or question someone’s ambitions about long range hunting of elk, but many who are not terribly experienced have possibly some delusions of granger.

Hunting “trophy” elk is one of three tactics, the first by paying exorbitant amounts of money to shoot a trophy bull on some land or reservation that houses 375-425 bulls. Shots will not typically be long at all in such a situation being well inside 300 yards on a big target. Another would be a wilderness area hunt where most elk have never smelled a human (best chance at long shots). The other is to hunt dark timber after the rut where no one really wants to go due to the physical exhaustion of crawling under and over deadfall everywhere you turn and doing it fairly quietly. In addition non seasoned hunters will fear getting lost in such places regardless of utilizing a gps system.

Your chances of shooting an average bull on some drainage trail path following cows coming from feeding to bedding at first light will typically be well under 300 yards while they’re transitioning back up to higher elevations to heavy cover/dark timber, especially a week or so after the rut. Scouting helps to telegraph a shooting spot that won’t typically be “long range”.

Bull elk of substantial stature don’t get to that size without being cagey or ghostly, no different than a 7 yr old 10 pt whitetail buck weighing 350 lbs. No one ever really sees them unless they change their hunting habits and go to places most won’t or don’t hunt.

There are however many hunts that simply allow shots at 5x5 elk bulls and many cows with anything from a 6.5mm to .33 non magnums many of the chambers used are based on the itty bitty 308 Win case. Nothing wrong with employing other stds or magnums in an OEM rifle with decent glass in 6.5mm, 7mm or .30 with a good optic.

If you’re not serious about true, specialized long range rigs and long range hunting, don’t waste money on expensive setups. Save the money and hunt more often. Tags, traveling, taxidermy and expenses add up quick, especially if you hunt different game throughout the season.

Again, not criticizing anyone’s abilities or styles of hunting elk at any range, just looking at some of my experiences of killing elk over the years and relaying them. Have used 338 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 444 Marlin and 308 Win. Longest shot was 225 yards with the 338 Win Mag, closest was 120 yards with a 444 Marlin with 280 grain CorBon SP EXP at 2,250 fps in heavy timber.

Agreed: likely will offend some here , have seen no mention of fair chase in this discussion or respect for the creature we pursue. I have no doubt there are many of you out there that are capable of killing big game animals at 1k and more, perhaps I am as well, will I attempt it or desire to do so NO!!! I respect the animals we pursue to much to snipe them at distances that likely they aren’t even aware of our presence , let alone chance crippling and loosing them to die a terrible suffering lingering death. Shoot your steel and score cards for bragging rights but when it comes down to hunting get some ethics buy a good pair of hunting boots go shanks mare on equal ground with your quarry, you ‘ll treasure the experience far more and grant the creature the respect its do, From an 85 year old lifetime hunter , not as many of you would conclude , a tree hugging , flower sniffing greenie .

Depending on where I’m hunting it’s usually my 7 saum and 180’s, 28 Nosler and 180’s and quickly becoming my favorite to carry the mail is my 300 Norma Improved with 230 hybrids.

I think you missed the name of this section. It's called "Long Range Hunting".

We, who enjoy it, don't come here for a lecture from young or old hunters or non-hunters.

100% Ringman, ive seen a bunch of animals cripped off at 100 yards or closer over the years but I guess those don't count.

Just built it, we'll paid for the damn thing. Waiting on it to be put together. CA ridgeline fft barreled action, pure precision carbon fiber stock, Hawkins m5, NF NXS, scythe supressor. 7 PRC.

Gonna be a good one I think.

The first thing he needs to do is sell me that 3-12 lrhs.

I killed my cow elk last year at 470 yards with a 7 prc and 180 eldms. It worked but my first shot was a bit forward from too much lead so she required a second which put her down. Probably shouldn't have taken a moving shot at that range but she wasn't running too fast just at a trot and it was a long ways to cover so I knew I could get off a few more rounds if needed. The second hit the back of the ribs steep quartering away and took out about 6 ribs and that lung and up into the neck somewhere.

The last cow I shot with a 7mm was a 7-08 with 150s and it took 2 shots too. The first was well placed but if they're still moving I always keep shooting. I know a 7mm is plenty for most elk and too my first elk with one. However, my 300 wsm with 215g hybrids seems to stop them with 1 shot. I used to use 200g accubonds and those work well too.

If you aren't worried at all about recoil I think there's some value in a 300 wsm, 300 win, or 300 prc with 200 g plus bullets. At closer to mid ranges a 200g partition has worked well too.

I personally prefer at least a 7 mag with 180s for longer range elk but think I'm going to use my bergara hunter fsp 22" 300 win with 225g eldms this year. I keep going back and forth between 7mms and 30 cals.

My 300wsm with 215g hybrids is doing 1800 fps and has 1500 #s energy at 1000. That's the parameters I used when I decided to go with it for a 1000 yard elk rifle built over 15 years ago. I love 7mms but if there is such thing as an inherently accurate cartridge I think the 300 wsm is it. I have several of them that have been 1/2 moa and better guns.

Bb

I'm not normally a big Norma fan but about 15 years ago I bought a bunch of Norma 300 wsm brass because it was on close out at sps. It has been excellent brass in my 300 wsm so I False shouldered and formed some for my 7 wsm. They worked great there too.

My 300 wsm just has a #4 interrupted fluted 10 twist brux on a stiller predator action. It weighs under 7 pounds without the scope. I saw a local rifle builder at the range one day as I was testing a load at 100. He was at the 1000 yard range shooting. He said let's see if that light little rifle for long range hunting will actually work at 1000. I had some rounds left with 208 amaxes in the Norma brass so I grabbed my rear bag and put my Harris bipod on and sat at the 1000 yard bench.

He had a 16" plate so I dialed my elevation and held off to the left about 1/2 mil for a light steady breeze. I shot 3 rounds and then said I have to get back to work so call me and let me know how I did. He said throught the spotter he thought they were hits but wasn't sure. About 30 minutes later he called and said I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. He said you just shot a 2.5" 3 shot group off a Harris bipod and a little rear bag with a 7 pound rifle. I said well its more like 8 pounds with the scope and acted like I do it all the time.

I killed my biggest buck ever that year with that 208 amax load but it was only 289 yards. It was on the run however but the donut of death helped me get the lead right. That Norma 300 wsm brass is seriously good stuff.

Bb

Sounds like an awesome rig, Coyote10. Keep us posted. And, welcome to the club, I'll put your complimentary flat-brim in the mail.

AMEN!

Ok ok; but no one has addressed my question of fair chase, does that not deserve a consideration. Many prominent hunters, like Wayne van Zwoll, believe it does.

Is it legal, are you hunting legally, are you capable for the distance and conditions, is your weapon capable?
If yes, it is a green light if you want to fill your tag.

Fair chase and ethics will always be definitions that will not have total agreement.

So the primary goal is to fill the tag, does that mean a hunt without successful kill is a failure with no value? I have done many hunts without taking an animal, some of them are the more memorable , once hunted 19 days in BC., for California bighorn sheep, without seeing a legal ram , we hunted hard, in some terrible conditions, spent a couple nights shiwashed on the mountain. Hunt cost several thousands of dollars , but it was memorable in terms of CHASE. Where I’am coming from is the concern I have , for the non hunting public’s reaction when they see one of the many hunting videos out there showing hunters shooting big game animals at ridiculous ranges. Here’s an animal peacefully grazing or bedded totally unaware of a humans presence and a couple of guys are setting up their spotting scopes, discussing the range , wind , adjustment to scope etc, and then smoking(hopefully) the animal, and then rejoicing like a couple of idiots. I find that offensive as an avid hunter, and can not imagine what the reaction might be from the many of non hunters, not necessarily anti hunting. I don’t think it is favorable to our sport, Some may say p____s on them , we can not take that attitude, we as hunters are in the extreme minority of the American population, and perhaps even out number by the anti crowd out to destroy our sport. We need to be more proactive in our own defense and broadcasting marginal behavior is not proactive. One man’s opinion ok! !!

I have traveled out of state, flown places, packed in (Back-Pack), and never fired a round. I still had a great time.
I can not fill a tag, and have fun or fill a tag, and have more fun.
I have hunted up close and far away. Hunted on public land and private land.

Your definitions are your definitions.
Your opinions are your opinions.
What offends you, may or may not offend me, and vice versa.

What is humorous/weird/odd/etc.. to me is that folks who are opposed to LR hunting, will come one to a section in a forum that is dedicated to it, and think/assume they can change the minds of people that are already quite content doing it.
Or, maybe they just come in to this section to stir the pot, because they enjoy the conflict and drama.

Many folks who hunt at distance, also hunt close up...I like both!

Those who are opposed to hunting are going to be opposed to any and all kinds of legal hunting.

I thought my definition was simple and clear:
Is it legal, are you hunting legally, are you capable for the distance and conditions, is your weapon capable?
If yes, it is a green light if you want to fill your tag.

Fair chase and ethics will always be definitions that will not have total agreement.

Notice, I said, "IF you want to fill your tag."

FWIW I would rather kill an animal that is peaceful and at rest, than one that is spooked.
Chances of making a bad shot on a spooked or alerted animal is higher.

Have a great weekend sir.

I need to get load development done and two center-grip XP's:
6.5 Leopard (270 WSM necked down) and a 300 SAUM...Who wants to go shoot?[b][/b][u][/u]

I killed a doe last year at 28 YARDS.

It was TOTALLY UNAWARE of my presence. Shot it in the head with with a .45/70

Is that ok? Or should I have alerted it to my presence and taken a much less accurate shot at a running deer?

I live in Michigan where a long shot for me is 200 yards depending on which property I am hunting. A vast majority of the animals I have killed have been 75-125 yards.

If I lived in an area where longer shots were common, I damn sure wouldn't worry about taking one as long as my rifle and my skills were up to task.

I don't understand those that choose not to shoot at long range to bash those that have the skills to do so.

Not directed at anyone in particular, just the anti-hunting wierdos ... spazzing out on a hunting forum

Your pretend ethics halo is yours to wear alone, Attempting to impose your brand of pseudo ethics on others is the exact same fkn thing that the vegans, trannies and climate whackos are doing

Don't like something because you don't have the proper equipment or abilities ? Don't do it ..... but please keep your knob gobblers shut, 'cause long range hunters don't give a fk what you think anyway so go suck somewhere else


ok, lets try this .... probably gonna piss a bunch of you off but fk you anyway, so here goes

you go on guided slaughtering trips and call yourself a hunter ? Really ? You didn't hunt sh it, period ...... YOU PAID someone big bucks to hunt the game for you, all you did was fire the shot when instructed to, that's not hunting, that's just shooting ....

and if you missed or fkd up the shot, the hunter YOU PAID ... kills it for you, then you take a bunch of pics with the animal someone else shot for you and you brag about your amazing hunt every chance you get

WOW, how fair chase & ethical is that ?

Guess this is a waste of my time and yours, last comment however, define in your mind what is fair chase, if killing animal at such extended ranges it has no idea you are in the same county meets your definition of fair chase , fine that’s on you. Maybe you could care less whether the concept even exsist, however to many it does and is an important ingredient of the endeavor. I do not intend to bash anyone , just trying to inject an ethic into our sport I find lacking more and more as technology advances.

The animal doesn't need to know it is being hunted (Has no idea that I even exist), to hunt it...Whether it is 5 yards or 500 yards.

IF, my ethics stated, unless you use a bow (No guns allowed) with no sights, and can only release (No releases allowed) an arrow under 20 yards, you do not believe in fair chase and you are an unethical hunter.

#1 Would you disagree with my definition/ethics and my judgment to put limits on you?

"Hunting" has a lot of different definitions in a lot of different places, way before either of us were born.
Some of those ways of hunting, I have no desire to ever do.

Have a good weekend.

Define fair chase yourself ...

1. YOU PAY someone to hunt the animal for you, all you do is shoot it, then if you miss or wound, it gets killed for you , money well spent, ya ?

2. You get so close to the animal that it has zero chance of escape, especially when you have an experienced hired gun to back you up if you screw up

3. You don't do any hunting at all, Zero, Zilch ... all you do is tag along until your hired gun sets you up and tells you to shoot .... and again, kills the animal for you if you screw up

how ethical & fair chase is your style of so called hunting ? when the animal has absolutely zero chance of escape, it gets gunned down even if you suck at shooting


Not so much fun when the way you hunt gets picked apart, is it ?

We can apply these anti-hunting scenarios to all forms of hunting

But we don't....

So why do we keep hearing from the ass holes about long range hunting ?

AWESOME Swamplord!

Ain't that the truth, great post Sir!

Swamplord, your very comment suggests you are the type that gives our sport a poor image. But have a nice evening.

If you do not mind Mohall57, can you go into a little more detail about why Swamplord's analogy is giving our sport a bad image?

Personally, I agree with his statement. Anyone can pay a guide to go hunting with and kill stuff, it's very easy! I consider that Shooting and not Hunting.

All the hard work is in finding the animal ON YOUR OWN, then understanding how to get close enough to kill it. I hunt with rifles, bows, and shotguns it applies to all disciplines.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with people going on guided hunts, but to me, that is not real hunting.

I have friends that fly to Africa and have shot Giraffes and Elephants, Leopards, and all kinds of species guided and within days. I do not consider that hunting, I consider it shooting, and as I said I have no issues with that. Whatever turns you crank go for it.

I am a meat hunter, I do all of my own work to locate the animals I kill, it's way harder and more expensive than showing up at a lodge and going for a walk and killing an animal that has been pre-scouted and set up for you to shoot.

All it takes to go on a guided hunt, is knowing how to shoot. Hunting requires many skill sets.

Dang it. I know.....I said I'd never do a PRC or Creedmore, and here I go.....can't do the flatbill though. 6 creed is in the back of my mind as well lol.

So build a fast twist 6mm Remington AI and be different!

Did that. And a 6x284. And a 243 ack. And a 240. Lol. Always preferred the old 243 win for my coyote eliminating needs. 243 win on a remmy 700 long action with berger 105s and 4350. 8 twist on all but the mark v in 240. Always been a huge 6mm anything fan.

I might be wrong, but I seem to recall you posting about a guided elk hunt on horseback?

You are not wrong in a hunting career of 57 years, I went on 1 guided Elk hunt.

The only way to get to the area I wanted to hunt was an 8-hour ride in on horseback in the Wilmore Wilderness Area in Alberta, I do not own horses.

I never said there was anything wrong with guided hunts. If I had been born into a family of wealth, like Donald Trump Jr. as an example, like him, I would have been going on guided hunts and been a tourist with a gun all over the world as well lol.

The only point I was making is that do-it-yourself hunts, without a guide and especially on your own, is an entirely different animal, and is actually hunting in comparison.

Whereas guided excursions to shoot animals is paying someone to do all of the hunting, locate the animal, then you get led to a specific animal and shoot it, which as I said I don't have a single issue with.

Here is a picture of that trip. My guide who did all of the work preseason scouting, setting up camp, etc is wearing the cowboy hat, them thar are his horses, giddy-up lol

Cringe when others shoot 300 yards farther than what is “light work” for your rifle.

Killer bee: l detest a person blowing their own horn, and I don ‘t mean to infer you are, But in reply to your post on guided hunts I need to point out my own hunting experiences. I’am 85 years old , hunted big game since the age of 15, blue collar working stiff my entire life and whenever possible hunted DIY , in a manner I felt ethical. I was forced , due to mandatory state or nations guide requirement to hire a guide in a dozen or so cases. In some cases they were much like you described but for the most part the guide simply provided transportation , knowledge of the country and the critters habits, they and I worked equally hard on the efforts to find the game, get on them , harvest it ethically, process it and get it back for processing. I was fortunate enough to achieve the grand slam of North American sheep. 2 the dall and bighorn self guided and desert and stone guided. In addition to the slam I harvested 8 or 9 dall and 1 bighorn, I was fortunate to live in Alaska and Wyoming where residents were.Not required to have a guided and I was lucky enough to draw the tags. I never took a shot at any of those animals beyond 400 yards, a couple were as close as less than 100 yards. I took immense pride and satisfaction in ever one of those hunts, I’m several of which were very challenging. In addition I was lucky enough to take 20 of the North American 29, all ethically and fair chase as defined by the Boone and Crockett club. Good day sir

Sounds like an outstanding career, congratulations!

Again, my only point is that when you go on guided hunts, most of the work is done for you, they do the vast majority of work before you even arrive, whereas when you do your hunts without guides you do all of the hunting and the work you definitely don't just "Tag Along".

Friends of mine that have hunted Africa as an example, show up and the next day they are hunting, in areas that have been scouted and they basically hop in a truck go to where the guide knows where the animals are, follow the guide and they shoot.

I consider do-it-yourself hunts, truly hunting. In my case for moose as an example, I do all of the pre-season scouting, by calling Fish and Game offices to find out which areas have the best success rates in the Zones I want to hunt in. That is the only thing I know about the area before I head out to scout it myself.

I load up my quad drive to the areas and do a lot of scouting to find the best sign and focus on those areas. If it is moose, I will be in the areas in September, and scout. When I find areas with the most activity, I will go back during the first week of October and hunt that area, without anyone's help or any guarantees. As I mentioned 90% of my hunts I do on my own.

I do the same when I hunt Deer and Elk, the only difference is I go at different times because I like hunting species when they are in full rut, which I call "Prime Time"

I have also Hunted the most exclusive Club/Property for ducks and geese in Canada, but the vast majority of my goose and duck hunting I did on my own, where I did all of the scouting and hunting without any assistance.

I think it's fantastic that you have been so successful in sheep hunting. No matter if you are going by yourself or with a guide you better be in great shape.

One of my father's friends listed #2 in SCI, used to have guides on speed dial all around the world, when he got a call that a certain species of animal he wanted to hunt was located, he would fly there in his jet to kill the animal. Nothing wrong with that! The hardest part of that type of hunting is making the kind of money you need to afford to pay the guides who do all of the work.

I am not opposed to any type of hunting guided or not. It's all good!

Thank you for your response and have a great weekend

You are a hoot. Meat hunting? I can literally go out for an hour a year to kill “meat”. Quite the chore.

If you want to call this chore hunting, fill your boots.

Humans have been increasing their effective killing range since they put a rock into a sling. Where and when do you wish to draw a line in the sand and say: "We should go no further."?

This is the unanswerable question. People with a conscience will always pay attention to the greater good without restriction. Those that don’t have a conscience, will continually stretch their boundaries without thought to the decency or integrity of the purpose of restraint.

In Montana, we used to have no posted speed limit on the highways, it was careful and prudent. We had the open highway to determine what speed we would travel and do so. After the ridiculous 55 MPH law of the Carter administration, Reagan disposed of the senseless energy saving speed limit. Montana went back to careful and prudent, but enough liberalism and immigration of California outsiders, they were screaming for a numerical limit because they weren’t capable of making a decision on their own.

The similarities of these 2 situations is evident in the decay of our society to require posted limitations on what we are to adhere to. As to “what is too far to shoot” it should be a reasonable distance acquired by knowledge of seasoned shooting and a disciplined limit that people should recognize out of sensibility and not restriction.

Once that is said, you will have those that will put no limit on distance and disregard the lack of safety with such a philosophy and press on.

Is it 200 yards or 2 miles? Do we really need to put a distance limit on it, or try to practice sensible restraint and be a unrestricted group of shooters that respects the safety of others and the value of the game that we hunt, then act responsibly?

Well said. The liberal mind loves control and loves to be controlled. You could replace the word liberal with evil and it still fits.

Hence, nuclear weapons when Napalm was certain to bring Japan to its knees.

Humans don’t by nature possess the ability to “stop here for moral reasons.” More like, “go to the ends of reason so we can meet our enemies there.”

Which has nothing to do with long range shooting except to recognize its inherent in human nature to push the limits.

Chore? Who said it was a chore? Oh you did, so you fill your boots doing your chores dummy!

The way I see it there are two types of hunters. People like me, who hunt to fill their freezers and Trophy Hunters.

When I hunt for moose, the first legal moose I see within range is going down, if I were a Trophy hunter I would be more selective. I am in it for the meat. But unlike you and your Alberta lady friends, I don't kill Moose Claves.

Chores you do around the house, I live in the city and have to travel to hunt, it's a lifestyle.

And do me a favor Dickhead, if you want to troll, stay on Alberta Outdoorsman where you specialize in trolling. In other words Piss off, AO douchebag troll!

Well that was rude.

Go outside and do some chores, with all of that fresh air, you'll get over it, troll.

Schrapnel , I am personally honored that you began posting again. You pose a clear headed opinion and do not interject insults or malice to get the point across. Sometime post that picture of you holding the antelope by the ankle while trying to finish it off. Makes my day to see such antics.....

KB. Hypocrisy looks good on you. You wear it well.

The man’s a hell of a shot with a bow.

Just for the record ....

I'm in no way opposed to any form of hunting, guided (hired guns, lol) DIY, high fence, archery, crossbow, handgun, blackpowder, rifle, long range, spear, switchblade knife or nunchuks .... etc....

If the area you hunt in, allows it by law... then it's 100% the hunters responsibility to hunt morally and responsibly and take wild game as efficiently as possible with the least amount of suffering imparted on the animals

What pisses me off is these guys that have zero clue on a certain form of hunting that they have no experience in, always prattle on like old women, wringing their hands and wagging their fingers in attempts to condemn something they are ignorant about

Like the 85 year old guy who's been hunting since he was 15... and still can't shoot past 400 yards

A self imposed range limit because he knows he doesn't have the ability or skill past that, failed to practice/train and failed to acquire the proper firearm chambered in a proper cartridge and bullets for long range hunting

None of that is a bad thing, as long as he acknowledges his skill level and hunts to the best of his abilities

But when these guys that failed themselves ..... attempt to school and scold those who have taken the time to learn, by using made up ethics scenarios based on their own disabilities .... ?

That is absolutely disgraceful behavior of any hunter and people like that should be ashamed of themselves and their blatant hypocricy

Hunters have enough enemies, we don't need or deserve to have our own clawing at our own

I have been hunting with a bow since 1984, ya I am an excellent shot with my bows, better than most.

Sir: I never stated I could not shoot past 400 yards, I did say, of the number of wild sheep, I have taken none of them were beyond what I believed to be 400yards. I only carried a range finder on one sheep hunt, my last, s big horn here in Wyoming, a friend that accompanied me to s assist with our horses , camp and etc. range that ram at 395 yards. I was using a model 70 Winchester 270, Leupold variXlll standard turrets and hand loaded ammo. Shooting off my pack on a solid rock, held hair line and took him cleanly. To you long range shooters that a chip shot, for me, at my age it’s a good poke, but I felt comfortable , another 100 yards. I would have passed and looked to get closer, so are you going to condemn me for adhering to my own self imposed limitations. And by the way I do own several so called long range varmit rifles and routinely shoot varmits at extended ranges. I just chose to not do so on big game. If I gave the impression I am condemning all long range, shooting big game categorically that isn’t my intent, I simply brought up the subject to call attention to some of the videos on the net that do not reflect well on a sport we all love and hold dear. I assume all, on this web have seen them , your reaction may differ from mine, but I can tell you, without reservations , the non hunting public finds it repulsive.

When faced with the same question, my answer was 7PRC with a 22" barrel suppressed.

That should work great.
E

Building another lol. Not really a dedicated elk rifle, but would work just fine.
Defiance classic, 22 inch proof, Hawkins m5, pure precision altitude, scythe, nxs 22 power.

6.5x284

Pics to come

Love the 6.5-284 and the 284 Winchester. Taken a lot of different animals with those two cartridges, and have had fun on steel and paper at distance to boot.

Had one in a ridgeline. Didn't care for it. Shot a 6.5x06 for 10 or so years. Figured this would help me reminisce lol. Almost went 6.5 prc but had a long action.