I have an Ed Brown Damara in .300 Win Mag. It's light, around 7+ pounds with a brake. I'm shooting 180 gr. Ballistic Tips at 3,000 fps, approx. 1/2 MOA. I'm looking for a trim, light hunting scope with a ballistic turret, programmed for this load. Am looking at the Leupold VX-3, 3.5-10x40 CDS and the Swarovski Z3, 4-12x50 BT Reticle. I know there is a price spread there, but like both scopes. Cabelas has this Z3 on sale for around $1K, the Leupold will cost around $600 or so. The Leupold custom turrets are less expensive than the Outdoorsman's custom Swarovski turrets. I don't want the big, M1 Leupold type target turrets, just a simple one with a stop at 100 yds. Don't expect to shoot much over 500 yds. May need an extra turret for high altitude hunting.

Would appreciate input and advice.

Thanks,

DF

I have used the VX-3 you mention for shooting out to and beyond 600 yards in both a AR-15 and a 300 RUM.
Worked fine.

I'm in the same boat. I'm looking for lightweight, long-range scope with a turret. Leupold seems to have the lightest offering with the CDS line, but there is no side focus, which concerns me some. I was thinking about the LR 4-14x40 (30 mm tube) and having a CDS turret put on it. I'm not sure what I'm going to end up doing. Vortex has a new hunting scope line due this summer. Might wait to see what they are like. Too bad Sawrovski doesn't have a scope with a low profile, MOA marked turret.

Doc,

Too bad you have to consider the 30mm, bulkier scope. The 1" VX-3 4.5-14x40 has only 19.9 ft, field of view at lowest power, as compared to the VX-3 3.5-10 with 29.8'. Both the Swarovski Z3 4-12x50 and the Z5 3.5-18x44 have 29' and 30' FOV at lowest power respectively. That's a 10' difference that could be an issue at close range and the reason I eliminated that model from my short list.

DF

I forgot to add that Outdoorsman makes a custom ballistic turret for specific loads for the Swarovski Z series BT scopes. It's not cheap at $199, as compared to the Leupold CDS turrets at around $50 or so if I remember correctly. And one may need a high altitude and a low altitude turret for the same load.

DF

I actually called outdoorsmans and talked to them about their custom turret. I asked them if they would be willing to make me a simple MOA turret as opposed to one with yardages on it (which is what I'm used to with my NF scope), but they would not do it for some reason. I've got an older Swaro 4-12 on my light rifle now, and it is a good scope, I would just like to have an MOA turret and develop my drop chart for each load and location I hunt. Swarovski really seems to be missing the boat on this one.

Folks making yardage turrets but refusing to do an MOA turret would show their true ignorance IMHO... MOA has been working for years....

Agreed. MOA is the only way to fly.

I also have a 300 win. Here's what I did and I'm very pleased with it. I put turrets on a leupy 3.5-10 through the custom shop. I also used Burris rings and offset the inserts to give me, IIRC, 20 moa elevation. It's a great rig, light, and is GTG, for me, out to 700.

These folks make turrets for alot of scope makers. I do think these are the tall turrets though.

http://www.kentonindustries.com/

I am sending 2 of my Leupold scopes back to Leupold to have them install their system using their turrets. The cost is very cheap for what you pay get and I already have the Leupold VX-3 rifle scope and VX-2 rifle scope.

I was in your situation just before Christmas. I chose to go with the Leu. CDS and the custom dials.

The reason I chose that system is because of its simplicty. 90% of my shots will be inside 250 yards, I only hunt one elevation, and for hogs and deer, I use but one bullet.

If I expected changes in altitude or bullet selection I would have gone with the M1 turrent.

I'm learning to use M1 type turrents on my hevey barrel rifle, and am enjoying the lessons.

GB

Hi Tonk,

Last I time I spoke with Leu, they wanted $90 to install one (elevation) M1 turrent. What are they charging per CDS turrent?

the 3.5X10X40 is a very light and clear scope. i like a 40 mm i can mount it lower. all of my leup have been awesome. my long range ones have tracked perfectly and i use them for 1000 yard compettion. i shot a record book RM sheep with one. i do not have any swaro scopes. only binos. they are awesome too.

Dirtfarmer, I use the stock turret on my 3-10x42 AV to get me well past 500 yards.

A thought...

Sounds like you might want to look at the 1", 4.5-14AO, VX3, w/CDS.

Or Nightforce NXS 2.5-10X32 with NP-1 reticle. It's the way I went for my fav. hunting rifle.

Same price, I did two with CDS ele's this year.

[quote=Jeff_O]Dirtfarmer, I use the stock turret on my 3-10x42 AV to get me well past 500 yards.

A thought... [/quote

Jeff,
Didn't you make a "custom" sticker to go on a scope that let you dial in for longer ranges? I've thought about doing something similar on my Swaro. Do you have a link to that post or can you let us know how what you came up with and how it works? Thanks.

Out to 500 yds, you can ignore altitude

Bad advice

IMHO if your shots are all inside of 250, there is no need for a turret ever.

Actually zone dependant... from where I"m at, like you, I"m 200 feet ASL basically... take that to 12,000 or so... my zero is off enough to miss to my tastes... living at say 8K, going to 12K, out to 500 I"d doubt that altitude makes much difference at all. Elevation angle of shot could always make a difference.

Edit to add, I'm not so sure its the elevation difference that messes my zero's up, I just know to check them, that they are usually hitting about 3-4 inches higher at 100 than at home.... but humidity, temps can factor in of course as well as pressure.

Given a constant temp and just using a .277" 130gr SST with a MV of 3250 the difference in drop at 500yds. from sea level to 5000ft is -1.7", at 10,000ft it is -4.2", at 15,000ft it is -5.6".

Yukonal,

Am learning about Leupold's latest offerings. Unless I missed something, I think the VX-3 4.5-14AO is a 30mm scope and I don't see the CDS offered on that model. The VX-3 4.5-14 in 1" tube, for some reason, has only a 19' FOV at lowest power. (See posting on that subject). Whereas, the VX-3 3.5-10 has nearly 30' FOV at lowest power. I know there's a full power difference, but 10' is a lot to give up. I'm trying to avoid 30mm scopes for this rifle due to bulk and weight.

DF

Right now, I'm leaning toward the VX-3, 3.5-10 CDS if I don't go with a Swaro. I like this simple, compact scope, although I'd be giving up A/O and Euro glass. For my use, 10X top power w/o A/O should suffice for a hunting rifle even at 4-500 yds. and I understand Leupold has done a lot with glass quality on their latest, higher end offerings. For long range targets, or long range game, I'd make a different choice. I know how tough Leupolds are, not sure about brute toughness of the Euro scopes. They may be as tough, I just don't know. Leupold custom turrets are a lot less expensive and I may ultimately want more than one or two.

DF

my 3-10 VX3's w/ CDS have made 6 and 700yds quite easy....though I somewhat prefer MOA. I will say the yardages on my last "custom" turret from Leup is dead on out to 950(where I hit zero stop)....

Like I said it can be otehr factors but I"m off more than what your charts show, repeatably over a number of years. Is it altitude only? Probably not, but in one way its not to be ignored that lightly.

nsaqam,

I thought rifles shot high at higher altitudes due to less friction from the thinner air. I heard approx. 1 MOA change for every 5,000' elev. Your data seems to be going in the other direction.

DF

I`m sure you considered Ziess? I did a turret for $65 on a 3x9 Conquest. Excellent scope, very dependable movement, and return to zero. Nice trim, bright glass, at $400. My third.
I developed my own drop chart, which you will have to do too...tho you shouldn`t have much problem out to 500+ yrs.
Zeroed at 300, your bullet is going to drop about 26-27 inches at 5. That`s a 5-6 MOA come-up...if my math is correct.

The numbers are based off of the drop at sea level and the negative numbers is the difference at the specified altitude.

Sea level was 38.4" or something like that and the numbers I posted were subtracted from that 38.4".

So at 5000ft the drop was 36.7" and so forth.

Farmer-I have both, and had M-1's installed on both at the same time, at Leupold. The 1"-4.5-14X40AO has an adjustable objective lens.

The 30mm 4.5-14X40LR has the side focus.

Now, if one or both of them isn't offered w/CDS, you can buy what you can find, and send it to Leupold to have CDS dials installed. I believe they will do it to any VX3 model.

As far as elevation correction is concerned...as the 2 other posters commented, it's a moot point. A quick example, without looking the charts back up, my 708 at 500 yards here in MN (980 elevation) compared to 6000' elevation in Alaska was only 2" different. Moot point. Look around in some ballistic calculators online, and compare some numbers for where you shoot, to where you could possibly go, and see what the difference is.

Also want to add, the only reason I suggested the 4.5-14, is because I like the extra power for target practice at 300 and 400 yards, which is about all I shoot after load developement is done. Didn't mean to sway you that way. 3.5-10 is a super scope. Hold 'em side by side at your dealer, and see which one you like best.

Thanks for the info. Your 4.5-14x40 A/O must be an older 1" model , as either I missed it in the line up or it has been replaced. I was amazed at the 19' FOV at 4.5 power on the new 1" 4.5-14x40. Is your 1" tube scope like that? I think the 30mm Long Range 4.5-14x40 has a decent FOV at 4.5 power and it has the side focus, which I like. I'm wondering now, if the tube body is long enough to mount on a mag length rifle without offset rings or mounts. The Ed Brown Damara comes with Talley bases, mounted with larger than std. screws. I don't really want to buy an offset set of bases and have to open the new base to receive the #8 screws vs. #6 std. offering.

These things can get complicated. May end up with the Z5 swaro 3.5-18x44 due to glass quality, side focus, 1" tube and adequate tube length. Not that much bigger or heavier and probably a better (although more expensive) scope.

DF

For hunting situations, "need" was not a factor in my equation.

I joined a shooting range this year that has steel out to 600 yards. I'll play with the turrents there.

I did some measuring and the VX-3's have relatively short tube bodies. I would have to change around the Talley bases and rings on the Ed Brown Damara magnum length action to accommodate any scopes in this series. Pretty well eliminates them, as I don't want to do that. I like the way these mounts fit and look. Will probably go Swaro. Just save a little longer to get the one I really want. Currently, my choice is the Z5 3.5-18x44 BT with an Outdoorsmans custom turret. Should be a super rig. I'll have it up and running for next season.

DF

dirtfarmer-my 1", 4.5-14AO is a--less than a year old--VX3. Leupold's newest model.

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-...-3-riflescopes/vx-3-4-5-14x40mm-adj-obj/

A 20' FOV seems plenty to me.

DF,
What is the eye relief of the Z5?

3.74", evidently at all power ranges as they just give the one value. Not sure how they do that. Only thing kinda weird is .36" POI changes at 100 yds per click. Not sure where they came up with that. Maybe it's a metric value expressed in inches. Also, I like the Z3 4-12x50 BT, but it has no side focus or A/O. It has a 3.54" eye relief and .25" per click at 100 yds. I have around 6 Zeiss scopes of various vintages. Wide FOV and really good glass. Wish they had a ballistic turret set up like the VX-3 CDS or the Z series BT.

DF

Yukonal,

I guess I'd have to handle them to see what I thought. 20' seems a bit anemic compared with 30'. That's a 10' handicap that could make a difference in certain settings, up close and at low power. I guess I'm guilty of over thinking this, but like to study my equipment up front before a committment. Less chance of me selling a new piece of equipment on Ebay and starting all over, if you get my drift.

DF

Hey, I follow you. When I went to buy my first "new" VX3, I took a VX3, 3.5-10X40...and a VX3, 4.5-14X40LR outside of Cabela's, and tested them for 20 minutes. I could scan over 400 yards, different terrain.

The 4.5-14 absolutely BLEW the 3.5-10 away. The difference is so huge, it isn't even a comparison. Definiately my favorite Leupold. I hope you find a good one for you.

Take a few minutes and snoop around Nightforce's website. The new NXS 2.5-10X32 is maybe the best all around hunting scope I've ever seen. With the NP-1 reticle.

Yukonal,

Only Nightforce scope I ever used was sitting on a big 50 cal. They seem to be tough, big target type scopes. I'm headed the other way with this project. Sleek, light, versatile, simple with long range potential, even though my rifle is slightly over 7#'s. With the Shilen barrel, Jewell trigger and it's supurb accuracy, it could be be pressed into action as a long range rifle in a tight. I want a scope that could fully compliment this rifle if the need for a 500+ yard shot arose. Most shooting will be w/i 400 yds.

Df

Only if you want them to...

A simple fixed 6X Leupold with LR dots will easily get you and your 300 Win Mag to 600 yards.....and you could add turrets to one if you wanted.500 yards is easily achieved......

A 3.5-10 Leupold should mount up on any magnum length receiver pretty easily.

The way I hold the rifle, I like the scope mounted slightly rearward and the 5+" VX-3 tube doesn't give much wiggle room. I don't like to crawl the stock to see the scope. I would need an offset front base to achieve that with this rifle. Ed Brown uses 8-48 screws and a new Talley base would have to be altered for the fatter, heavier duty screws. I could do all that, just don't like the look of offset bases and will find a scope to fit bases as supplied from the manufacturer. Swaro scopes are longer bodied and will fit without a problem. Have about decided on the Z5 3.5-18x44. Costs more than I wanted to spend, but does what I want it to do and with style.

DF

I like my scopes mounted back towards me too. I can relate. It's not a popular scope mounting position around here.

Generous eye relief is the great equalizer.

Just get a picatinny rail so you can mount the scope you want where you want, not "the only place it'll fit" or choosing a scope you didn't want as much because it "fits better."

Once you get over the mental hurdle of "tactical stuff is SOOO UGLY!" and discover the practicality of it, these "tube length, short action/long action, offset this, offset that" thoughts seem quite silly--especially for a long range rifle. Also there are a good number of scopes that really need a 20 MOA base to be of much use at long range. Being able to swap scope around quickly and easily, being able to check the tightness of all the screws in the mounting system quickly and easily without losing zero, the brute strength that is especially nice when using big scopes on hard kicking rifles...the list goes on and on.

Give it a try. Then buy the scope you want without "tube length" worries.

Why is that?? At typical hunting elevations, it will not result in a miss on an animal bigger than a rabbit!

If one lives and hunts at sea level with his rifle sighted in there and decides to go hunt some exotic creature that lives at 14,000' I guess you might have several inches less drop but since that is about as unlikely as it gets, I basically discounted such an atypical event.

The likely scenario is going from 1000' to as high as 9'000 feet.


If you take the ubiquitous 7mm Rem mag, with a 160 grain Accubond @3100 fps [I have no idea if this is a accurate velocity figure or not] sighted in at 250 yds at 1000' elevation you get the following drops at 500 yds:

1'000' elevation -29.3"
9'000' -26.8
11,000' -26.3


This is a whopping 3" at 500 yds. It won't result in a miss at a deer or elk sized target. I say you don't need to worry about it. If you are that worked up, it is easy to remember that I am 3" high at 500 yds...

CDS made easy is a nightmare. I bet we will see some kind of restrictions on hunting big game with turret scopes because of them...Making an 800-1000 yard dial for every tom dick and harry that sends in their corloct info is gonna be a GD disaster.

Just my opinion

True! That's one reason I've moved away from Leupold. Great ER at low powers, terrible at full power.

Most of the time, when guys are talking scope position they are really talking head position. They have a preferred head position, and mount the scope accordingly. I really can't abide crawling the stock; it's uncomfortable for me.

Jeff,

You wiil get the hang of it.

Keep up the good work.

The One Load Wonder BDC's are a great gag gift,every Cough Silencer oughtta come with one.

Would love to hear how someone is stupid enough to screw a MOA scale up,with all staring them right in their crossed eyes..................

You get one right once every thousand posts or so, I agree

I've yet to miss and dumb as you are...even you know that..............

So that little "U" on the turret stands for "Under"??? And I dial it that way when I want my next shots to go under the previous one????

Believe me 'Stick, there are some out there.....

That they exist,is the BEST part..............(grin)

Yes I do know that...it is quite obvious, but just keep tryin'

Imagination is all you've got and that sure as [bleep] ain't never not gonna be funny.................

rost495

+10 on your comment! Just another 'scam game' to sucker those in what don't know apples from sweet taters!!

It's akin to a tape measure,less markings of a known scale value..................(grin)

rost495

I'm at 80' ASL! When I get a 1000 yd. zero here on my Palma rifle shooting a Sierra 155 gr. Palma bullet at 2950 fps and go to Raton, N. Mexico at the Whittington Center to shoot....that home zero is 5 full MOA TOO HIGH! Raton is at 6300' ASL!

Wonder why they work so well for the guys who actually kill schit at long range???

Must just be some kinda magic.

Imagination,is far more powerful than facts. Funnier too!

As you so eloquently quantify,ad nauseum..............

Lil Fish,

I think we all know your Long Range Resume is pretty thin.

As you are so fond of sayin �Feel free to hang some pics�

It don't get any thinner,than handicapping a scopes erector to a static BC,at a static speed,from a static zero and at a static atmosphere.

Feel free to use all the Imagination you can muster...you's gonna need it................

John, you really need to get a new hobby, this one, as you say, is getting pretty thin.

R.

Leave her wiggle room,to denote how them statics stack up in more than one tube.

It'll take all of her Imagination,to get a gaggle of tubes to toss static velocities across a static chrony,with a static box of ammo...on top of the BDC brainfart. But it never ain't not funny.(grin)

Stupidity ain't her hobby,though it's assuredly her plight..................

Lil Fish,

Seem you have exactly zero experience in the actually shooting game at extended distance.

Bravo Lil Fish, you get the award for �He who speaks about what others have done�.

Keep up the good work.

I'm as at ease in musing fact,as you are talking out your azz...............

Lil Fish,

Why don�t you just hang a few pics of all those long range hits you have gotten in the field.

Seems that there just are not any.

Every time we play this game it seems to turn out the same. Wonder why???

Because your Imagination takes you places,that don't exist.

Physics is a knowed quantity,same as your bullshitt. Was heading towards quizzing you on ammo particulars,but that was gonna get ugly too..............

Lil Fish,

You can quiz on ammo all you want but the fact remains that you simply have absolutely no long range game shooting experience.

You seem to think that internet quizzes will fix that but those of us who shoot know better.

I simply like to hear you sputter and it don't take anything more than a query in passing,to getcha there.

Funny how everyone else that builds rifles,is more than eager to answer particulars,but only the greasy Snake Oil Salesmen clam up.

Pretty damned funny,from stem to stern...and more than a touch telling..............

Lil Fish,

If you had any experience with long range you would begin to understand but since you only know what others have told you or you read it makes it hard to keep you in the loop.

Physics are a given. Though there's no telling where your Imagination will take you next,thus your perpetual sidestep of all particulars.

You is THE Notso Artful Dodger...............

Lil Fish,

The problem is I am a known quantity in the long range shooting game and I guess you are also. It is just that you have no experience but seem to like to run you mouth.

Feel free to TRY and poke all the holes you dare,in the simplistic facts I cited.

You can't...which of course is the source of your being so well "known",though hardly in the light your Imagination is trying to cast. You are the biggest tool in the box.

Congratulations?.................

Lil Fish,

Are we gonna get to see some vid or picts or what??

You fan club is gonna be so disappointed if you lose this again. Just put up some picts of you actually doing what you are yapping about and help the boys out.

Reality always trumps Imagination and I'm more than a whole bunch comfy in the sanctity of that constant.

You've proprietary stupidity in your corner and that'd be it................

Lil Fish,

Why don�t we skip the imagination and just deal with what we have really done in the field.

So tell the boys Lil Fish, what have you actually done in the field??

I have seen a few vids out to 700yds on steel but my 13yr old niece can trump that so give us an update on your shooting. Any game beyond 400yds??

I'm simply a whole bunch good with a rifle and it could go no other way,given the familiarity. The time,round count and wares are commensurate with that fact. None of it new.

Thus the ease in smelling a ruse,a mile away..............

Lil Fish,

Skip the double talk and let the boys know what you have actually done.

We both know it will be disappointment but they need to know sooner or later.

I'm never not speaking matter of factly,if only because facts matter. Yet another constant.

You are never not slithering away,because it's the only move you've got.

Deeply humored,in how you are stumped by your own wares...that's yet another Instant Classic!..................

Lil Fish,

Well I guess we can agree you have never done any long range game shooting and I have done quite a bit of it.

Other than that this seems pretty pointless.

Have yourself a nice evening.

Feel free to tell yourself,that which you most desperately need to hear.

Facts is never pointless and the astute appreciate your candor,in revealing your gross ignorance,regarding the most simplistic of ballistic matters.

Though that were hardly secreted either..............

Jeebus, you two! Get a room!

Maybe in... April?

Facts is facts and you'd be amongst the last to savvy that..............

"Must just be some kinda magic."

REAL MAGIC.....especially for those making and selling....for those that don't have enough brain power to figure MOA!!

If doing some extra calculations at the shot make you feel better, have fun.

Some of us are a little beyond the chart dialing thing.

John,
I have asked BS to commit to a PDog shoot in Wyoming this summer. His BS is astounding and humorous. I think he missed his calling and should consider Conmedy Central. He could fly into Billings and rent a car and meet a couple of us in Buffalo. I know a couple of ranchers that would appreciate his shooting ability if in fact he is as good as he says he is.
He must not have the funds for a plane ticket and a car rental is all I can figure or possibly being away from the keyboard for 3 or 4 days would slow his post count down too much.
Come on BS bring your toys and come on over and we will have some fun.

Dave

Dummy,what part is "confusing"?




If you are gonna slum a BDC,at least drive one with a MOA scale,so you've a move,after having seen the light.




Your Imagination is taking you places again,that are opposite reality....................

You poor clueless dolt,thinking you rate and that Flat Landing is doing "something" to boot.

I'm cryin'!...............

I thought Stick and John were gonna have a friendly shoot in Montana in April, and that members of the Fire were gonna donate money to a Paypal account to buy Stick a ticket etc?!

I offered to fly him out to Montana or Wyoming, pick him up and take him to wherever he and Burns choose. Would like to see them shoot at truly long range. video it for the fire. Offer stands. Might even bring a rifle or two and fire a few rounds too.

Lefty C

No need of MOA once you understand how to build extra charts. If you are not using a PDA or carrying extra charts then what is the point?

If you are using extra charts then learn how to build them and skip the elevation MOA and put your wind on the turret.

Been playing this game to long to think I need or want MOA marking on my elevation turret. I have been there and done that and killed a lot of LR game that way before we figured out the real deal.

Under real world conditions the DCT simply works better.

Hmmm... generous of you, but I hate to see you bear all the cost. I bet we could easily get the cost of ticket and board lined up via $10, $20 donations, and a paypal account should be easy to set up. Just a thought. [bleep]... I'm in for $20!

Stick, let's do this thing!

Magic Charts now too?

No [bleep],the windage turret will shift boolit flight? Must be another of your "proprietary" findings. Laffin'.

All you can do,is illuminate what a slow learner you are,due solely to your inherent stupidity,which is commensurate.

Stupidity is the gift that keeps on giving and you are a bottomless pit of misinformation and sheer dumbphucktitude......................

You gals and your never ending imaginations,truly crack me up................

Lil Fish,

Well I guess you really put me in my place.

Wonder how I manage to kill at LR on such a regular basis??

Must just be pure luck or maybe I am talking just a little over your head??

Study up Lil Fish, you are still about 15 yrs behind the State of the Art.

John, your dumbphuckitude is legion and your rifles are WallyWorld crap and you can't shoot for chit. And your truck sucks.

Congratulations?................











(there.... now will someone fly ME to Montana for some shootin'?)

No imagination....Real deal...offer stands...

LC

Thought so...........

You??

What about me??

You've only managed to dupe yourself,which never ain't not funny.

The only people who think that shooting is hard,is them who don't shoot much,as you so eloquently testify. They are the same Sheep most easily duped,with Imaginary nonsense,quantified by ridiculous wares that pale everywhere else but in their Imaginations.

Thus your gross reluctance to muse them absurd notions...which admittedly is the only move you've got. But don't hurt the humor none!..............

john, guess you're too busy with this thread to see my question on the one in custom forum, re: 105'max's.

This begins to remind me of the story of mud wrestling with a pig.

At some point you begin to understand the pig enjoys the mud wrestling.

Is there a finish line with this Lil Fish??

You mean to tell me, your $6000 rifle won't fly you there?! Maybe even get camp set up for ya? <grin>

Your wasting your time with him John.

It's a Textbook example of Snake Oil 101.

Denoted plainly,by your wide berth of all things germane...but it's funnier than hell!...............

Aw Lif Fish,

There has to be a finsh line and we see who shoots and who just likes to yap on the Ol internet.

What do you say??

He's good at yapping and he thinks we are the ones that are comical. Oh well, what would this place be like without him?

There's no end to the line,as you are welcome to all the slack that you think you can handle.

You're doing so "well".

Laffin'.............

I am going to use my undue sponsor influence to have him banned from posting words but still able to post pictures.

Lets see how that works out.

Rick are you out there, Rick?? Rick??

You could sue yourself for slander...and win.

Laffin'!..............

Be careful what you wish for: That picture of him running around in the woods in his underwear was something I wish I never would have seen

You have to be willing to take the good with the bad.

On the Picture front there has been quite a bit more good than bad, although that one is pretty bad.

Funny part is,only you can prevent you,from saying something stupid.

I'm grateful that you are powerless to refrain!..............

Lil Fish,

I am just here for your entertainment

The entertainment is unintentional,which makes it soooooooooo splendid...............

John,

Out of curiousity, to what range are your elevation turrets calibrate for?

Also, if your windage turrets are marked in wind speed, how do you account for different strengths coming from different points of the compass?

Regards,

Peter

You're mean..................

I'm betting the host of this shin dig will happily hand you ur ass VIA outdated MOA technology, you're either that good, or just awful cocky, we shall see.

A pocket full a turrets should keep ya covered. Oooooopps, that was proprietary

The velcro fastener,is gonna add another $700 to the fray...................(grin)

Pete,

The max distance on the Drop Compensating Turret will depend on the rifle the optic is mounted on and the conditions used to generate the trajectory.

We get 20 MOA in a rotation on our custom scopes so we will get a little further max range in one rotation that the stock Leupold.

I will give you an example:

7MM WSM shooting the 162gr Hornady AMAX
Muzzle Velocity 3100fps

Now let�s say we will use this rifle hunting costal blacktail in SE Alaska. Our hunting conditions will range from beach hunting at sea level to maybe a max of 3000ft if we are tough and want to climb from the beach to the alpine.

I would recommend setting the turret for 1500ft and 40degrees temp.

From a 200yd zero we would need 19.5 MOA to get us to 950yds. We would etch the 950yard hash at 19 2/3s MOA and that would be one click short of a full revolution.

The rest of the dial will be etched with the appropriate ranges.

We don�t dial for wind but use the reticle with the hash marks in one MOA increments.

The 10 MPH wind drift is etched on the elevation turret above each hundred yard increment.

In this example the 900 yard zero will have a 4 � etched above the 9 to indicate the bullet will drift 4 � MOA at 900yds in a true 10 MPH crosswind.

Here is a video link that might be of interest.

[bleep],you're a RIOT!


MOA for windage,but not ele...though you'll scratch [bleep] with a pocket knife?

Interestingly enough,these BDC's with MOA will grant 60MOA in a revolution.



Getta kick out 1/3 values too,if only because they's as obtuse as you. I'm cryin'.................

Lil Fish,

Keep studying. We will get you your first LR kill yet.

You can do it.

The only thing you can show me,is how inherently funny stupidity is and I do thank you for that.

It's epic!....................

Bruce Robinson is laughing at you from above.
Those who knew him are not. They are simply shaking their head at the stupidity.

Lil Fish,

When you post your first pic of an animal you have cleanly taken at distance I will be so proud of you. I will be the first to congratulate you on a job well done.

Now get out of the theoretical and go out there and get you some real practice so next year you will be ready.

Physics is only theoretical,to the oblivious...of which you wholeheartedly qualify...............

Will this explain??

Must be outta the same pile of beans as frammy.

Aw how cute.

A couple more from the "never been there, never done that" crowd.

Hey Stick- you could end this right now with a quick pic of the deer you intentionally shot in the ass- SIDE of the ass no less- at what, 500 yds? You know, the pic with your coat over the whole back of the deer to cover up what that Amax must have done to the meat?

Oh wait.... he said "cleanly".... crap, my bad.

Pretty [bleep]-ing pathic..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=848794

John I am trying to follow this stupid thread. As near as I can tell you offer a rifle package with the scope (of unknown quality) set up with a dial-a-deer knob.....for both elevation and windage. That would be canned come ups and windage values, not in MOA, but in knob settings. I am not a LR hunter, but primarily a target shooter. I have killed my last two elk at 500+ yards with a sporter 300 mag.

First if I read this correct you offer a rifle with calibrated windage. If so that is beyond compare, the most stupid promotion I could imagine. I would hope the price of your rilfe includes a PHD in wind reading.

In terms of elevation...if you offer a dial-a-deer setting there you should also offer a PHD in external ballistics and perhaps...$hit-assed luck.

I will respect your ability with your rifle (and I'm sure it is well built), but why not just offer simple MOA corrections to make your rifles more repeatable. I would think this is the way target shooters and hunters alike could comprehend.

I can't comment on your elevation corrections, but if you offer a pre determined windage knob.................that won't work

Yep, that's the one.

Reading his description of the how and why is nauseating.

Jeff you have a PM

LC

Let me get this straight..


Jeff O is being critical of someone who shot a deer in the ass.


You couldn't make this stuff up.

I chuckled as well.

The guy is so stupid he can't help himself.

If you read Johns threads what he is doing is essentially trying to take all the brains requirement out of shooting long range.

So when he sells a rifle, he provides a load (or loaded ammo, not sure which) to the buyer..He will ask the buyer what altitude he regularly hunts at, and using ballistics program, he works the come-ups for various distances. Nothing mysterious there...However instead of the scope being marked in Mil or MOA, he directly marks the yards on the turret.

Again using a standard ballistics program, he works out the MOA required at each yardage graduation for a 10mph cross wind, and marks it in MOA. The shooter then knows the MOA value to hold off for a 10mph cross wind without consulting a chart. The shooter still has to be able to read the wind, and do some maths to allow for other windage values, but he has the basic starting point on the turret.

Will it work? Sure, within the confines of the system...It doesn't allow for temp variations, pressure variations , and pretty much ties the shooter to one load or loads with similar ballistics.

I am sure there are folks out there who simply want to "dial-and-shoot" and don't want to learn the basics about ballistic, BC, Mils, MOA ect or are frightened of the math..

When such a person misses though, for what ever reason, (and we all do) they are going to be hopelessly and utterly clueless as to why... It also very cleaverly simplifies dialing the range,(which is the easy part) but the shooter will still have be able to read the wind, and at extended range, thats the critical part and is a skill which can only be learned through practice..

I'm not advocating John's system, though I am running several rifles set up with both MOA and yardage markings on the turret.... and 9 times out of 10 I just dial the yardage (talking targets here).... but anyway, my point is that I've used a reticle with windage hash marks (Zeiss Rapid-Z 600) and found it to be quite effective.

Joel,

Yep. I am. And if you had a non-biased bone in your Stick-worshipping body you'd see there's a world of difference between screwing up, copping to it, lamenting the massive loss of meat and extra suffering for the animal....

VERSUS, shooting a deer through the hams on purpose, with a bullet you yourself recently said requires a strong stomach if you hit anywhere other than behind the shoulder, and then bragging about this horrific and blatantly wasteful act on a public forum.

He only gets a pass because guys like you are so far up his butt that you think the weather outside is brown, with smelly clouds.

Just when I think you can't get any stupider, you go ahead and top yourself.

So Calvin: would you shoot a deer in the butt on purpose with an Amax? If yes, please explain.

I don't think much explaining is needed if the answer is no.

How's the weather up there, anyway?

If I had a big buck walking into timber, I'd put an amax into the butt without thinking twice. I wouldn't feel bad, I wouldn't make excuses, I'd do it because that was the shot I had.

Wow. I guess "trophy" trumps wastefulness and a clean kill for you. At least you're honest, props for that.

In Stick's case it was neither big (thinking he called it a "rat" if memory serves), nor was it walking into the timber. So in a roundabout way we've determined that even you, think it was an unethical shot.

Wastefulness is such a stupid term. You think somebody is going to starve because you lose some pounds of venison? Give me a break and get off your imaginary high horse. Nothing illegal or unethical about putting one in the butt, if that's the shot you have.

Always interesting to get a peep into the other guy's head.

Wow.

And JeffO is the stupid one. OK.

How much meat did you waste by shooting all those immature deer? Didn't you know that if you worked a little harder that you could have killed those deer when they were mature and have gotten 20-30lbs more meat for the same animal in a few years? You could shoot a mature deer in the butt twice and still get more meat than from a young fork horn.

I can kind of understand Jeff being upset, I mean when you so rarely see dead animals and the damage a bullet causes, it probably causes him some distress. Don't you worry Jeff, animals get harmed every day.

In the one pictured from the other thread my guess is both front shoulders were untouched, both back straps were probably in excess of 90% good and I'll wager the right hindquarter was good as well. Thinking that works out okay in my book.

Considering frequency, persistence and fashion in which JeffO has been call to task for freely admitting to such a bad shot, I too find the above statement highly surprising.

Jeff O was taken to task because he made up some BS excuse for shooting a deer in the butt.

WTF?! Bullchit on THAT noise, Calvin. Now you are just lying.

Moosemuncher, having personally butchered a deer shot in the ass, it's a mess and an appalling waste of meat. It was also no fun at all for the deer. That may not matter to you. Guess it doesn't. Again, interesting to get a look into how others see this stuff.

And that was using a relatively "hard" bullet. Calvin himself recently commented on what a mess an Amax will make if it hits meat. I'll go find it.

Okay.

And while we are at it -

My name is Carl and I shot a wildboar in the ass once.

Here is my BS excuse for it -

it was wounded and I was tracking it. We found it bedded down next to a road. For fear of it running into traffic I shots it up the spout.

Broke the pelvis - slowed it down alright. Needed a finisher, though.

6,5x57R RWS Cone Spitzer 127 gr. bullet

Wasn't pretty.

Thanks for quoting me. I'm absolutely correct. I never said that no meat would be destroyed you dolt.

BTW, how many animals have you killed with the Amax?

Lets hear the story again how you were aiming for the rib and your foot slipped?

Now I was never a Marine sniper, but had the honor of serving with some terrific guys who were, and I managed a little trigger time with the good old M40A1 rifle back then. It's worth noting that through the 1980's and 1990's the Marines were well served by a 10x Unertl scope with a bullet drop compensator. Not MOA adjustments, but a BDC, set up to work with their 7.62 sniper ammo. It could of course be adjusted a bit for elevation, and had mil dots for ranging purposes. It's been 20+ years since I used one, but it worked well. Range a target 600 yards distant, dial the scope to 600, dope the wind, and press. Hits were usually pretty darned good.

A little more info from the U.S. Optics web site:

"The MST-100 and MST-150 were developed in the mid seventies by John Unertl in Mars, Pennsylvania for the USMC. These scopes were primarily built for the M40A1 .308 rifle, but were later also made for the .50BMG. Durability was a primary goal, so the complete scope housing and knobs were made from 1018 steel. The elevation knob was design with an integral BDC for the M118LR ammunition, the veneer ring below the main knob adjusts for 1/2MOA deviation from the BDC setting."

Personally these days I use Leupold scopes with MOA turrets for my long range rifles, but John Burns is in good company with a BDC approach. I haven't kept up with what kind of adjustments today's Marine Snipers have on their rifles, and am sure it's an improvement over the old BDC on the Unertl, but they managed some impressive shooting with the old BDC scope.

Regards, Guy

Not a story; just what happened. Sharply quartering-away deer uphill from me, I was sidehilling on a steep slippery hillside and thought I could sneak it by the butt and get it behind the last rib. I didn't. Deer ran 50-75 yards with one leg flopping around behind him. Bad footing, tough angle, and- ultimatly- a poor decision shot by me myself and I, as proven by the results.

Now let's hear your story for how you justify an intentional shot that you absolutely know will wreck probably pushing 1/3rd of the meat, cause a stomach-turning mess, and cause needless suffering to the animal? For what, again? Oh yeah... a trophy.

But wait, doesn't trophy trump all? Just sayin.....laffin......grinnin........all the other bs his majesty would say........

If you think ass shooting a deer is going to lose you a 1/3 of a deer's meat, then you aren't taking all of your meat out. That is a fact. You would likely lose 5lbs of meat, 10 at best, out of the 65-70lbs a mature deer would yield. You dolt.

Needless suffering? Are you joking? What do you think happens when you make a lung shot and a deer runs 50-100yds. You don't think that hurts? You dolt.

You are so boxed in. Just give up, dude.

If you don't care about meat loss from an Amax then why..... snork....

In a more broadside ass shot, like Stick took or you would take by your own words (depending on which we are to believe... snork...) you could lose more than 1/3 of your meat- and you know it.

This is another case where Jeff O clearly is talking out of his ass with no clue as to what he's talking about, yet declaring some imaginary victory.

Now explain to me this, jackass..

How could an ass shot with a 162amax lose you more than 1/3 of your meat?

Like I said, you are obviously not taking all your meat from the game, if you think the hind quarters around the pelvic region holds 1/3 of the meat on a buck..

This is Jeff O revisionism. Somehow a shot in the butt turns into a "broadside" shot, destroying 100% of both hind quarters.

Poor Jeff O. Trying so hard that he even has to change what I posted.

Next Jeff O is going to explain how a broadside hindquarter shot that zooks all of the imaginary meat will slip into the guts, like he said it would.

Thanks for the humor Jeff. You truly made the Bears/Packers game much more bearable..

Still no Magic Bullet Theory on how an Amax will destroy a imaginary number of pounds of meat from a "broadside" shot, then take a turn and end up in the guts, after destroying the offside ham?

Well, I need to go. Be back in a few hours. I'll be looking forward to hearing how an Amax can destroy 1/3'rd of a deer's meat.

Now Calvin, liberals never twist stories or the facts.....

Gotta go get some venison out of the freezer for dinner tomorrow night. Thanks for the entertainment Jeff.

Beat you to it, moosemuncher. I've had venison thawing since this morning!

Calvin, you are flailing. I'm talking about a butt shot that's on a deer more or less broadside but- to use your words- dissapearing into the timber. By your definition, that's a shot you'd take, and yes a bullet that is a bomb could cost you 1/3 of you meat in that case. And from the thread and picture on SH it appears that was the shot Stick took. Maybe he'll enlighten us about it later. Snork.

It's been fun to watch your mind work gyrate on this one. Don't stop! And don't worry- your pals will show up soon enough and you can get in on one of those dogpiles you like so much. I'll be chuckling the whole time as a) it's just the Internet and b) watching you wiggle on this one is worth whatever "beating" you and your buds might think you are administering.

I'm having elk taco's tonight... YUMMMMM...

That's it? Really? No magic bullet theory? No theories on how an amax could destroy a 1/3 of a deers meat?

Disappointing. I'm almost late to my meeting because I stuck around to see the explanation. I was expecting more.

Nice, BSA!

I'm down to about 10 packs of elk from the two I killed a couple years ago. What I have left is backstrap and big steaks and tenders... trying to save them for special occassions.

We are having dinkburgers from this year's spike buck for dinner.

Shooting into where the meat is, with a bullet you call a bomb, is all the explanation needed, silly head.

Now scoot off to your little meeting.

Disinterested third party here. Calvin ain't the one flailing.

Jeff could work for John and neither of the dumb bastards would be the wiser.............

That wasn't even directed at you, but if you say so..

You lost me here. Do deer walk sideways out there? Every time I can recall seeing one disappear on me, it was moving away--not broadside.

And why would anyone purposely shoot a broadside deer in the butt anyway?

And why would a guy who's never used a particular bullet argue about the terminal effects with a guy who has?

I hate to jump in, its going so lovely... but if you think that a south end shot on a north bound deer wastes that much, you haven't done it correctly or with the right bullet. I've done it AND frontal chest shots which are the SAME shot, IE both travel the same path, and the deer are dead very quickly, no suffering etc... now... if you screw up the tail end shot and hit a ham... well you ruin a bit more deer, but not much with the right bullet.

Jeff R

Hmmmm....destroyed meat??

Shoot one of these....and ya can eat right up to the hole!! Penetration?? From azzhole out the mouth!!


By rmulhern at 2011-01-17

Jeff is doing as well as her Imagination will allow her...which never ain't not funny.

Digging how she's squeamish about a boolit she's never seen,let alone shot,interacting on a Cheerio at 2300fps.

In her mind,she was there.

Laffin'!................

rost495, +1...............

Her Imagination and "experience",now have her trolling for heart strings.

Most everything I've ever shot,had two holes in it,for every poke and I've zero qualm swapping exits for entries...because the terminal affects is the same.

I don't shoot to be nice,I shoot to be savagely ruthless and long ago mastered how to freeze things in their tracks.................

+1...........

Whole lotta butt-shooters here all of a sudden... lol...

My mistake. Sorry about that.

I think the two of you need to come to Pat's in April

The proof is in the puddin'

Put up or shut up !

Mebbe I'll get all my BDC cams in a pile this evening,for a posterity pic.............

Mmmmmmm...tough call,Booner Bears and HOG Steelhead or Window Licking Flatlanders?

Laffin'!................

the response I thought would come...

time to shut up I guess...

Always entertaining,how you Window Licking Flatlanders have so much downtime and cry the blues in that regard.

Exactly why you gals don't shoot much,except your mouths.................

come down and prove that you skill is as good as your constant dribble....

You ask me to set aside my live Crab going into boiling water,to come partake of your freezer burned version of same,from '09's Deadliest Catch,as a means to "show" me something?!!?

You [bleep] poor clueless idiots...............

You's in over your head toots................

lol.... NOBODY on a different site.

same ol' story.... glad I wear me Muck boots !

No comment on the turrets...but I do know if I had access to steehead like stick catches, you'd have a damn difficult time prying my hands from a lamiglas, unless it was to replace with a loomis.

Carry on.

ain't on his side or yours.... just think a day at the range could settle it.

see if the shooting equals the talkin' ....

More of a Loomis Slut anymore,though I've some aged Lami near and dear to my heart too.

Old Iggle Claw "Granger Graphite #GG502 that I paste a feesh with every year,for a day or so,if only in the interest of nostalgia. She's been talkin' for a coupla years and I keep skinning the ABU's drag looser and looser,to account for same.

Might shed a tear,when she finally pops...............(grin)

I do like to sandbag,more than a leetle...mainly because it cracks me up.............

Larry VS. John ???

TBA...

I ain't much fun to shoot against.

Which is more than half the fun..................(grin)

Come on Stick, Larry vs. John. Already made the offer to fly you down. real deal!

Offer Stands.

Your lookin pretty chicken...hell you got more chicken than Col Sanders.

Lefty C

Don't think I could even pretend to be that,but your Imagination will take you places reality won't..................

Facts speak for themselves......classic Dipstick


LC

They assuredly do. Entertaining that you'd think I'd leave the splendors of Alaska,to put on a Shooting Exhibition for Flatlanders.

Next you'll be wanting me to mail you a [bleep] Humpie..............

could use some dog food... but i kind of like my dog...

BTW wyoming aint exactly flat................

Thanks for the offer of the Humpie but I will pass..

Can send you some chicken....oh wait your already have plenty,

Lefty

Chickens is for tourists,who eat [bleep] Humpies. I never was much into [bleep] around..................

LC

don't know what all this Flatlander talk is about.. apparently you haven't been to Wyoming and Montana ?

We gots big hills to pilgrim....

I reckon you gals that do the least,gotta tell yourselves sumptin'.

Flat as it gets here.



Laffin'..................

is your last name BAGGINS ?

laffin'

ain't flat here either Pilgrim

In fairness,what's the highest peak in Flatoming? I know,I know...you Flat Landing [bleep]'s are as bad as Texans,think that half is sumptin' and that being 6500'+ shy is "close".

Cracks me up................

over 13000' here in Wyoming... you ever take geography Larry ?

He's got you here you just don't realize how much he knows about geography.

Alaska only has a handful higher than Wyoming and Colorado...

Dickbrain,

Gannet is a miserly 13,800'. Denali 20,330...that's an over 6,500' difference. In conjunction,it'd be a breeze to rattle off 15 peaks in AK,which trump Gannet.

Your Imagination was taking you places again,but it' all you've got.

Laffin'!...............

been around Larry for years... he was on other sites. aka NOBODY

yup the same man that has been banned off so many other sites... LOL constant entertainment from middle earth !

Then you really should know better,than to showcase your stupidity as a "Trump Card".

Laffin'!..............

Larry, you truly are a pathetic lonely little man... that spews ( that means Expel large quantities of (something) rapidly and forcibly) useless dribble.

but you do make me laugh, and I appreciate that.

you should get a show in Vegas... Laffin'

Deeply humored,that you was ever under the impression,you had either a clue or a chance.

THAT is funny!......................

sphincter says what ?

You've an unfair advantage over most,you don't have to play dumb.

I'm cryin'!..............

I know... I just have to act like you.

Although it is hard to dumb myself down to your level and speak in words you will understand..... but I have learned from our conversations over these many years...

thanks for making us smile Larry

Hell...you were doing so "good" too. You was damned near within 6,500' and missed the frequency trump rate by only 15 times and you live there.

[bleep] idiot.............

do you read the stuff you write ?

name calling.. wow.. think I stopped that in the 3rd grade.

good night Nobody. pleasant dreams !

Please feel free to find me mistaken...you've now 30,948 tries.

Laffin'..................

that is what this is all about !!

Happy Anniversary Larry...

10 years of knowledge on ONE site ! LOL

congrats man... what an accomplishment !!

Your insecurities are wellfounded and run commensurate with your IQ.

You have a leg to stand on,to punch your 1st Grade teacher in the face. This Thread would absolve you,from wrong doing.

Laffin'!..............

Larry,

you win, you are the master of wits and I am unarmed.

I bid farewell to the King !


To all the other members, I am sorry I lowered myself to Larry's level. I will try harder to not do this in the future.

You got something right,for the first time ever.

Lotsa slack left on the rope,should you ever feel compelled to want more help,with the particulars of the State you live in or anything else..................

Just keep those great pictures coming. I like the ones in the other post of the sheep. Bid farewell to him, but stay for a while. Looks like you have much to offer.

Roger that bsa. I will stay and be here for the duration. Weathered storms greater than that... LOL

thanks, glad you liked the sheep pics !

Ingwe likes sheep pics!

Errrr... they're naked, right?

Jeff, it is Sam that likes sheep.

Oh dont get him wrong Ingwe does too.

Coincidence? I don't think so!






(not even sure what that's supposed to mean, lol...)

Knocked the new offa the Noodle and had my hands beyond full.

In fairness...it took 3 casts,which suplized me............

Lil Fish,

Maybe you need a proper Drop Comp Turret for that rig??