Anyone seen or shot these?

Here is the write up from 6mmbr.com:
John Pierce has recently introduced a new custom action that duplicates the size and footprint of the Remington 700, but with more precise tolerances. It was favorably reviewed in the April '07 edition of Precision Shooting. Designed for the hunting, tactical, and varmint markets, the Pierce Engineering action carries an introductory price of $885.00 for .223, PPC, .308, or Magnum bolt faces. The new action, is available in short, long (8.7"), and ultra-long (9") versions. (Priced at $1000, the 9" versions are special order and can be fitted with a longer 1" tenon to support long, heavy barrels.) All Pierce action are made from 4140 chrome-moly steel and come standard with a rugged CeraKote finish. Bluing and NP-3 coatings are also available (call for quote). The bolt is a precision-machined Pacific Tool unit, spiral-fluted, and customized with Pierce handle and side-mount bolt release.

John Pierce, a highly-regarded gunsmith and machinist, created his new action in response to numerous customer requests to accurize mass-produced actions. Accurizing involved many operations: recutting threads, machining bolt faces, sleeving bolts, reaming action bodies, and moving handles. John concluded it made more sense to start with a custom action made correctly from the get-go. Designed to provide benchrest accuracy for the sporting rifle, the 1.350"-diameter Pierce Action offers full drop-in compatibility with stocks inletted for the Rem 700.
Compared to a standard Rem 700 action, the Pierce action is better in many ways. First it is built from 4140 aircraft-grade chromoly steel, heat treated to 37RC. (This same steel is also used for crankshafts and connecting rods in professional race engines.) Second, the raceways are precision-cut with CNC lathe and mill machining and wire EDM. Particular attention has been given to timing opening and closing helixes for smooth operation. Third, the handle is welded in fixture, then placed in the mill for final machining of the opening helix to attain accurate positioning. Fourth, Pierce action features larger (8-40) scope mount fasteners, with precision-milled mounting threads.

All Pierce actions feature the Pierce enhanced Firing-Pin Assembly (FPA). With a faster lock time (2.3 milliseconds) and lighter strike (4.3 in/lbs), the Pierce FPA delivers easier bolt lift and reduced disruption when the pin hits the primer. Independent testing (Precision Shooting, 12/05) concluded a Pierce FPA can even shrink group size. To order the new Pierce RemClone action, contact Pierce Engineering, 5122 North Grand River, Lansing, MI 48906, (517) 321-5051. Pierce also has plans to release a full benchrest action in the future.

Pierce Engineering

MtnHtr

I often wonder how these custom makers can justify making another precision 700 clone. It's not like there is actually a shortage of them.

Wish a few would get started making some small ring 98 clones or Sako A1/Vixen clones...anything but another 700 clone - the market is flush with them.

ummm ... there's a reason everyone is cloning the m700, and not all those other actions ...

What is it pray tell? Please don't say the Remington 700 is such a superior action...otherwise why would they clone it?

It's because it's quick and easy to clone a remington action. It's basically just a piece of pipe and in order to improve it the gunsmith just needs to cut everything square. Cloning a M70 action or a mauser takes too much time and skill.

It looks like a bargain to me; by the time you add up the cost of blueprinting a 700 and adding all the aftermarket stuff to make a 700 better,you could easily afford one of these. I think it would make into a dandy varmint rifle.This looks sweet.

For Mauser/M70 clones we have Dakota,Montana, Empire, and Satterlee,Prechtl,etc. There is not a shortage of Mauser/M70 clones.Just open up the wallet!

I see Mausers and M70 type actions as suitable for different uses,like big game hunting.

It's about $200 more than a stiller Predator which is just as good.

Dennis, I will disagree with you. I have both. The Pierce is a better receiver. It is a much nicer appearing receiver than Jerry's. I like the Predator, but prefer the Pierce.
Butch

Butch- you disagree with everything I say- regardless of what it is. My Stiller is every bit as good as the Pierce. I think the finish maybe slightly better(on the Pierce), but nothing in function. Neither one has a one-piece bolt and this is where you can really spend extra money.

Butch

$200+ is a lot extra to pay for the polish job. Does it have all the firing pin enhancements that we have. Smaller pin diameter that does not leave the hole, lightweight shank etc. Are all the extraction cuts make on the 4th axis and truly match. We are wire edmed also and use the anti-bind rail. I agree that it may look nicer polished, but a better receiver, I doubt it.

Does it (or the stiller for that matter) have a Sako extractor, and smaller ejector? Does the Stiller have an improved bolt release (along the lines of a surgeon)?

What we really need is an action that takes a PPC case head at most and has an OAL of 2.5". Would be perfect for .223 Ack and 6.5/6.8, etc.

All stiller predator and tac actions have a sako or m16 type of extractor and a side bolt release that is above the normal stock line. We have PPC faces avail.

Dennis,
I agree that we agree to disagree. For my purpose, the Pierce is better. I don't care about the polish as it will have a rust blue. Jerry, I don't care for the slab cut on the side of my Predator or the large lettering on the side. The Pierce uses a different type extraction and works very well. You do not make a CM receiver. It has a blind rear action screw that I like also.
I am not knocking your receiver, it is just not suitable for a rustblued-walnut stocked custom. I like my black on black Predator in 300SAUM. It is just a different type rifle.
Ryan,
I don't think any body makes a 2.5"oal receiver.
Butch

The D-back would be an excellent custom varminter setup, love the action, but agree about the large lettering. Nice little action for a walking varmint type rig. No comparison to any 700, and no slam on the 700s, just dont like them anymore.

I just got a pheonix machine, very nice reciever (old Nesika Bay). It has not been timed and fit yet to the PTG bolt, hopefully there are not a bunch of issues. Both look to be quality products. So I have high hopes. I will report back when the barrel gets here. Leade time was about 3 weeks.

My next action will most likly be a Stiller. I do agree with Butch. Cosmetically there are others that would look better in a sexy piece of walnut. My last build a Banser stock fit the project better than a McMillian. Is Banser better, well this time it was. Next one a Banser might not have even be considered. The Stiller looks right at home in a Swirly. IMHO I think building a hunting rifle or a live varmit rifle any of the 700 clones would be the same as an aftermarket barrel. I doubt the average shooter will see any difference in any of the bigger names. Same holds true, use the one that makes you feel good and your gunsmith likes. All will hold there value better than a worked over 700, for the same or less money.

mine has a rem extractor, 3 rings of steel for me ....;-)

I didnt know the predator's had firing pin enhancements but the pierce does for sure. DIdnt know about the lightweight shank either.... nice

Any pics of the Pierce extractor?

Cool beans I was gonna call about that and ask cause I couldn't find what I needed on your site.

Yeah thats my point. 2.3, 2.8, sure. It just seems a little silly to build a .223 on an action that can handle a WSM. Yeth the little CZs and such are too small.

It has a Sako extractor. I have a lot of pics if somebody can host them for me.
Butch

I am awaiting my Stiller Predator to get it's 6BR bbl installed.

In the meantime, I have a Sako 75 that has a one piece bolt, and a Sako extractor (who'd thunk it?) and it has shot sub inch groups at 200 yds, out the box.....My ammo of course..

But my Ruger 6.5x55 #1 falling block is wanting to get properly 'broken in' on a deer soon, and it also shot VERY accurately out the box.... 1.1" at 200 yds...

SO, I TRULY expect my custom Stiller w/custom bbl and Jewell, etc. w/high mag scope to cut groups far smaller than my factory rifles.

Hope I am not disappointed w/my 6BR, and don't expect to be.

Expect to post results when all is together.

Features might vary, but I'll choose a custom '700 clone' action any day over a Rem action and expect quality/performance to be as good as any blueprinted action, and hold it's resale much better.

Now if Sako made those old L579 actions, I'd happily barrel one or more.....yes the old pre-Garcia's, as the L461/L469s, and even the long actions were nice.

Butch, I am not fond of the EXTRA LARGE lettering either, not sure if that is for advertising or some mfg. reason, but cosmetically, I'd be changing it if I were building them.

Nothing wrong with 'branding' your product, but moderation......think of how small the emblems are on the BMW's and Mercedes, etc.

Not slamming here, as if anyone wants to hear me rant, let's start talking Remington QC and MY experiences. Nope sorry, my blood pressure needs to be left alone....so Claude, I emulate your sentiment.

In all fairness, I am not sure I ever heard of a bolt handle coming loose on a custom action, as one just fell off a virtually NEW Rem 700 (and no beating on the handle, etc. to any Rem Lovers that want to argue).....ironically, I do not recall buying another Rem rifle since.

+700 WGM!!!!

In my Rem 700 I use a Pierce firing pin kit. It just dropped in and works super. If he made a left-hand action I would buy one and never llok back.

As per cost, reliability, and durability Stiller is HARD to beat! I sure do like em!!!!!!!! Talk to Glen Harrison at Phoenix Machine on yesterday he should have a nice action as well he commented on 1 month on the turnaround time once order is placed!!!!

Pierce does offer his action in a left hand configuration, I just picked mine up from him the other week. All I can say is I have seen them all and the Pierce is right there in every aspect with the Borden and BAT actions.

Butch is spot on here, it's not the type of action that you would build a nice walnut stocked custom on by any means. I wouldn't use a Pierce for that either, although it would look better than the Stiller. I would use a modern Mauser style for a custom rust blued walnut stocked rifle. Classy is hard to define but for me, it's a claw type action, not a tube of steel.

Dennis

I know of one McMillan custom action rifle that had the bolt come off on the first lift after arriving in hunting camp in the Canandian outback! I believe it was the result of someone leaving the bolt in the rifle where it could be leveraged against the received during handling by the airline goons. But nonetheless- this was a high dollar custom action that bit the dust at the BEGINNING of an expensive hunt!

That's why I am waiting (still) on my Phoenix action with a one-piece bolt. Had I known it would take this long, I probably would have ordered a Borden rimrock action.

Thanks I might have to look into the.

I had some input regarding a different aspect of one of the companies. Customer Service.
A while ago, I called and ended up speaking directly to Mr Pierce about buying a couple of his firing pin/spring assemblies. I gave him the payment information and advised him that I was going to use it on a hunt that was right around the corner. I told him time was short and I wanted to check zero's with the new assemblies in before flying out. He understood and advised no problem. A bunch of days passed without anything arriving so I called. Mr Pierce said they forgot to get some bit of information and hadn't sent it out yet. It was some [bleep] bit of info that would have taken less than a minute over the phone, but for whatever reason he didn't make the call and didn't ship the merchandise. No problem I told him. What steamed me is that he recognized that he put me behind the 8 ball on my time line (I now only had 3 or 4 days left). But he refused to even consider paying the FedEx Next Day to fix his mistake and get it into my hand in time. I ended up cancelling the order and going with another assembly after I got back.

Prior to that we had conversations about his then new action and I told him I was in the market and would speak to him about it more after returning from my trip. Guess what...his penny wise, pound foolish treatment of his customer cost him a sale on his receiver, and some bad publicity. I ended up with a trued 700 and someone else's pin/spring assembly and am happy with it.

...but now that I'm getting the itch to build on a custom receiver, I'll have to make sense of the "700 pattern" custom's out there. ie, Stiller, Borden, Lawton, Surgeon etc. Boy there's alot of choices out there. Anyone aware of a comparison table? I will never buy from Pierce.

I have 2 Borden actions,1 a Rimrock I built a 280AI on and a Timberline we're building a 6.5STW on.Both were delivered on time,Jim and Joan are both absolutely wonderful people to do business with.

If you are considering a Stiller in a short magnum, consider this quote from Mr. Stiller. "We never did and still don't expect the short action magnums to eject a loaded round." Funny that I have not seen that mentioned in any of his advertising. I have one and won't get another. The Borden and Peirce look like viable options.

Dennis, not familiar with thos actions. Murphy's law can hit any mechanical device I am sure (just hope it does not hit my hunting buddys 700 trigger, as he CONTINUALLY fails to empty his chamber after getting back to camp putting faith in the safety!$%^&*

Anyway, Love my Sako and Ruger never have to worry about a breakage, my Stiller will be a local deer/varmint and paper gun, but ANY serious rifle will NOT go with me to rough country in the outback, if it's a bolt that is not a one-piece design. I simply will not put myself in that situation again. A one piece bolt to ME is a requirement for a serious duty gun. Just MY feelings on things due to a failure, and how that gun failure turns into a failed hunt, much less for a dangerous game hunt or one having to defend themselves against a rare but potentially deadly attack by a bear etc. 100% reliability is a goal that requires eliminating a weak link in a potential bolt handle failure IMHO. However remote that chance is, I am not going to take that chance by choosing what I feel is an inferior product. MFG. costs are what drives bolt design I feel, so spend a little more and rest easy you have a superior design in product reliability/longevity.

Not knocking quality actions w/o one pc. designs as MY experience was w/a mass mfg. of varying QC, but again when the application calls for something serious, no reason to chance it. Punching Paper and varmints is not what I call serious though others opinions may differ ont that, but camping out in the wilderness, etc. etc., that is what I am referring to just to clarify.

Sorry to hear of the short mag issue, maybe Stiller will make it right and can swap out for a non short mag action and you can just use it for another build???? Seems like that 'issue' needs to be proactively told to prospective customers to maintain a good reputation.

Please let me know where your buddy hunts so I can be nowhere in the vicinity. I would not go out with somebody that puts a round in the chamber and walks around, much less leaved one it after getting back to camp!!!!!!

My Borden Alpine Mag will eject and feed loaded 7WSM rounds very smoothly,But Jim did design the alpine mag around the WSM's!

Then how do you get the unfired round out of the chamber??
Will the extractor let go so you can kind of rattle it out??
Is this because the port is too short?

Borden actions are really nice!!

The port is too short. The extractor lets go, so you can pull the loaded round out. I had to have my gunsmith modify the port and work on the spring tension on the ejector just to get it to eject fired rounds. This was after sending it to Stiller and having them botch it up. Apparently it was OK to have a round eject straight up into the scope and bounce back onto the follower? Also after paying shipping both ways from Alaska, waiting over 1.5 years for the action, and paying my gunsmith to fix a faulty action, I did get an offer to send the action back (again my shipping expense) to get my original purchase price back. Sorry to vent, I'm getting pissed off all over again. I guess some customers matter more than others?

I am currently building a WSM repeater on a Stiller. I was not aware of these issues. I can live with the short port as it probably stiffens the action anyhow. I guess if the extractor didn't let go you could just pull the bolt. A definate PITA but not the end of the world. Sounds like you had the ejection issue a couple of years ago? maybe they have changed the ejection angle since then? I guess I will be answering my own questions soon enough.

If it's not to late get the Alpine Mag you will be alot happier!

+1000 what Ackleyfan said !!!

fwiw,
Concur...

Regards, Matt.

Guys I may be missing something here, but I have to ask,what if you're hunting, have a miss-fire,and have to get that bad round out of the rifle in a hurry? We're talking about spending a lot of money...on an action...that will NOT eject a LIVE ROUND?....Cause the loading port is too short,and the ejector lets go???

Seems to me that a bit of extra action stiffness(resulting in a 1/16th inch better grouping?)is hardly a worthy trade-off for the additional reliability of a larger port designed to handle the OAL of the cartridge you're using.We ARE talking about a rifle to be used for big game hunting, aren't we?? Or,are we......

I'd say it's a bit more than just a PITA,it COULD be a wounded animal getting away while you fumble to go "live" again and kill it.
I guess I just do not understand the emphasis on fancy accuracy and boutique actions, at the expense of field reliability, so prevelant these days.

Bob you bring up interesting points!

Bob,
I agree with you 100%. When he began producing the short magnum HUNTING actions as he advertised, I guess I was a fool to assume that it would eject a live round? The money I have tied up in the rifle and action is well beyond what refunding the purchase price of the action would be. Just to get a different action even at the same price, and then have it re-bedded, barrel re-threaded and chambered, etc. does not make any economic sense. Now I am probably going to buy a Borden SSR or a Remington and have the thing re-assembled. Not sure if I can utilize all my components though. What to do with the Predator? I suppose it would make a good action for an F Class gun?

BobinNH-

I don't think you are missing anything. I was just being optimistic on the outcome as I am soon in the middle of a build with a Predator and I did not know of these issues when I initiated the project.

Blackfootkooteni-

How short is the port of being able to eject a round with a 2.935" OAL? I am curious if I could machine out the front end of the port to get it to eject?

Funny thing with all this is I am not really a custom action guy- I am a lefty and I wanted a Short action Stainless action whick remington does not make. I am still optimistic that I will get it to work as my gunsmith/machinist is the best in the area. If it needs some slight mods/tweeking I am working with the right guy.

First, I'm not kooteni:-) Second, the port is not even close to being long enough. It's not just that though. We had to machine out the front of the port just to get it to eject a fired case! Not because of length, but because that little notch at the front of the port would direct the case directly up into the scope. I'm curious to hear other people's experience with the short mag on the Predator. I will post a picture later of the modification to mine. If you get it figured out, please let me know. I suspect the ejector button is in the wrong place. It's not where it is on a Remington, and I have seen Remington's with a Sako extractor feed and eject just fine.

Please post a picture Kenai

With a sako extractor you do not want the plunger in the same place as a factory Remington,it needs to be timed to lower the ejection angle so a case does not hit the scopes windage adjustment,I thought that Jerry Stiller was using PTG bolts for his actions, and they should have the correct plunger position for a Sako extractor,but i may be mistaken,Sako extractors installed in factory Remmy bolts have a reputation of throwing a case into a scope that is mounted to low!FWIW

Here are some photos if they work. Originally, the empty cases would not even come close to ejecting. It seemed as though the plunger was directing the case directly into the feed ramp. Then, after it was sent to Stiller, the cases would come straight up into the scope. Not just the turret, but straight up into the body of the scope. Now empty cases come out OK, but not as reliable as I would like. Loaded cartridges won't eject, they come up into the scope.

In checking a rifle over for functioning, it's a good idea,I think, to be certain the rifle will feed, extract, and eject BOTH loaded and fired cases.

I worked with a Rem700 300 RUM recently that would eject FIRED cases just fine, but would leave a loaded round sitting in the rails just about every time(it also had feeding "issues".

I know we intend to fire every round we load,but there can be unforseen problems(like a misfire or slight jam)dirty case refusing to chamber,etc.,that require we ditch it ASAP,and finely made actions whose primary application is to make the most accurate rifle possible,are not always the best choice for the dirty,grimy,wet/cold conditions encountered when we hunt. If they are to be used,they should be gone over extensively to insure they will function properly,in every aspect.Can save worlds of dissapointment.

I have noticed this strange phenomenon as well;namely,in the excitement of a hunt(battle)many of us(our systems charged with adrenalin) operate a rifle differently than we do at the range.The fascile movements we use in casual shooting,like we're handling Chippendale china, are replaced with stronger,faster, more urgent movements,sometimes faster than the timing of the action,and this can cause a failure to function as well.

In testing, always good to REALLY run a rifle in rapid fire,like you MEAN it,to make sure the rifle,and the ammo,work under the worst case scenario.Just my thoughts

Your plunger looks to be at 12:00 when the bolt is in the closed position,on my Alpine mag Jim has positioned the ejector button closer to the 1:00 position,you can go to the Borden web site and see some pics of his bolt faces if your interested,I can understand why this is fustrating to you,it seems you have put alot of time and $$ into your project,maybe a new PTG bolt with a ejector button repositioned would smooth things out,but then the port is still to short!

If I were to get an Alpine to replace the Predator, could I utilize my stock, barrel, bottom metal, etc. from my Predator rifle? Trying to find the most cost effective way to get a functional rifle.

blackfootkenai,

That is a good question - I am interested in the answer also!!

I dont recall the Stiller threads but the Borden does not match a Remington. I believe Borden mentioned someplace he did not like the idea of someone using Remington take off barrels on his actions and wanted to make sure they were using a top end custom.

Here is the bottom line on all of this. The plunger is in the right spot to eject the case out as low as possible. If it is anymore down, the case goes even further up. The predator also has the longer bottom port. That requires the bolt to be pulled further back which requires the port that much more back if you want to eject a loaded round. On this action for a loaded round to eject it will require a big cut on the port rear to open up the area all the way to the boltface. I will be happy to do this but it will look like hell. Most customers would rather have the port smaller and not worry about ejecting a loaded round.

This was a first run action. Since then we have made a few changes that help the empty eject. We moved the sako into the lug about 5 deg and are now putting in a narrow ejector. All of this was to help in the case from hitting oversize scope knobs, not to just eject. I have sold literally a thousand of these actions and have had but a few people have problems like this.

On this action I have talked with the owner and told him on many occasions to just send it back and I will happily refund his money. A factory Remington action will fit back in the stock or another clone could be used. He has always refused to do this. I am not sure what more I can do.

Varmintsinc, you are correct in your statement that Stiller threads are different from Borden threads. Whether Borden opted for the 18 TPI to keep someone from using takeoff Rem barrels is pure conjecture.

So if there is a fix, why could mine not be fixed? A simple exchange of bolts would suffice, would it not? Jerry, the point of this conversation was not to bash you or your product, although it has been hard to not go into more detail about this whole debacle. Obviously there are other people out there who do not know that a loaded round will not eject in your action that is advertised as a hunting action. That information should be available up front to your customers. If it is going to be used for hunting, it should be able to eject a loaded round. As far as refunding the purchase price, see my previous post. The cost of having it re-bedded, barrel re-threaded and chambered, new magazine box, etc., after I have paid to ship it back and forth to you from Alaska (not cheap) and paid another gunsmith to work on it just to get it to where it is now. My original post on this subject was to simply let people know something they obviously didn't. I also let your offer to refund my money be known in a previous post. I think if you look at it from my perspective, you would see that refunding the price of the action does not solve the problem. If I could get this thing to RELIABLY eject fired cases without paying another penny, I would consider the issue resolved.

I may be able to put in another sako extractor that will help remedy the issue. That will have the same basic affect as the narrow extractor. Send me the bolt and I will put it in or I can send you an extractor if you think you can do it. After that, that is all that can be done. A bolt swap will do no good beyond that.

By the way, I thought I paid for the return postage on the last one and included refund for the inbound with the returned product.

Nope, there was no refund on shipping. I am pretty sure I paid shipping both ways plus the fluting of the bolt, I will check my old e-mails, I could be mistaken. I'll send you the bolt next week. Hopefully this will fix the problem and it could quite possibly eject loaded rounds with the port modification my gunsmith did. If not, I never miss on the first shot anyways (obviously joking). If you could send the old extractor back with it just in case it doesn't fix it or makes it worse? I really hope this works, I like everything else about he action and the way the rifle turned out. Was the issue only with WSM cartridges?

The wsm were much more of a pain in the ass.

Phoenix Machine makes a hell of a nice action too - just was checking them out.

They made the "TEMPLAR" action for GA Precision (GAP)

I'm not convinced that the Phoenix has their bolt timing issue solved.
Butch

I like Chevrolet trucks over Ford.....Oooo wait this is about custom Remington 700 clone actions...Same difference

Got an e-mail back from Pierce Actions, will make left and right hand actions and left and right hand ports in any combination. FWIW.

wlfpack,
I don't see it that way. This is a discussion about receivers and what people perceive about them. I know that there will be a little of what you say, but mostly it is discussing the good and other things about the receivers.
Butch

Have read that there were some timing issues,I'm sure they will get it fixed!

Yah I was just injecting a little bit of fun into this discussion. I see some Ford Chevy in here that is why I said it.

I however do have one question for you, how can the phoenix action have timing issues if GAP is using them. I am not being a smart ass I am just curious how they are dealing with the issue.

That is a good question. I just talked to a very respected gunsmith and he has been having a fit making the one he has extract smoothly. Do you blame Glenn or do you blame Dave Kiff?
I don't know, but it is usually the receiver manufacturer that should be responsible if he says to use Dave's bolts.
Butch

Dave just supplies a product to replace a Remington. If it doesnt work with your product, I surely dont see how it can be Daves fault. Dave is very good at making parts per print and selling replacements. It seems to me it is up to Glen to make sure you can get a bolt assembly that works if you are only going to sell half of the action. Last I heard Dave specifically asked Glen to not advertise that he had bolts to complete his actions and the resulting issues.

All of the parts Dave makes us are to our tolerances and design, which is somewhat different than the Rem parts he does. All of our parts are spot on to the drawings we supply him.

Here's some more reading for your edification:

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55855&highlight=phoenix

By the way, GAP isn't the only rodeo in town.

Yes I have read that forum very interesting. I know that GAP isn't the only game in town, they are just the only outfit that I knew of that was using these actions.

I have a Stiller predator on order right now so this thread has alot of interest to me, I will be going with a 7 SAUM instead of a 7 WSM.

I'll be interested to look at the Pierce. I've been using Nesikas for a while, and have a Surgeon waiting for a barrel.

Butch,

How did your Predator turn out? I recall corresponsing with you shortly after having my rifle completed, and you had a 300SAUM built if I recall? Did you have the same issues with ejecting as I did? How does the SAUM differ in feeding/ejecting from the WSM? I have to say that if ejecting reliably wasn't a problem, I would not hesitate to use a Predator again. I am of the belief though that for a hunting rifle I would rather have a larger loading port and sacrifice the extra stiffness of the action.

Another question about all these Remington clones, why hasn't somebody produced one in Titanium? If one could be produced for under $1500, I could see a market for them in lightweight rifles. Of course I have no idea what it would cost to produce one.

Poor Butch just keeps putting both feet in his mouth on this one!!

Blackbird, don't you have anything constructive to add to this, in my opinion, very interesting topic? Or, do you just like to bash someone who does?

Blackbird, What is your agenda? Blackfootkenai and I have discussed this by PM. I gave him my opinion and he gave me his. We are satisfied that we both know where each other stands. And by the way, boss hogg, slowpoke garcia, and whatever, your post are the same on every board.
Butch

I have a Phoenix action on order, but I wanted it WITH a one piece bolt. I didn't want to have to hope that one of Dave's bolts would work.

Is making a bolt that much different than the whole action? Why don't the action makers manufacture their own bolts instead of sourcing it out to Dave Kiff?? Seems like this would alleviate some of the problems. At least Stiller supplies the action with the bolt so any problems are 100% their own.

I have been waiting for mine for a while!

The reason that many manufacturers have Dave do it is that Dave makes a good product for a good cost. I build our own benchrest bolts. I mainly do it because there are so many configurations and with the sliding plate extractor it is just easier to do it myself then define all of them for dave. I would almost guess that if Dave didnt build bolts, most of the action builders would quit. I would have to add another mill, lathe and grinder. Its not a huge deal for us, but probably a $200k investment. We weigh out the build versus buy every 6 months and so far decide to buy. I have plenty of work right now and Dave does a good job so why not spread the work a little bit. IF times slow down, that may change, but I dont see it happening any time soon.

The interesting quote about is that if the action builders built their own it would allevate some of the problems. My question is: Who out there has problems with their actions that supply the bolts?? I understand the Phoenix deal may have issues as a non mfr must put a bolt in it. Problem from day one till the end of time. But, from any of us that supply the complete action, what is the problem?? Every action I send has a properly fit bolt, handle etc whether I built it or not.

I am mostly referring to the Phoenix issues and somewhat to the ejection problems.

Dennis,who is making and what are the prices of a one piece bolt?

Both Phoenix and Borden make actions with one-piece bolts and they are in the $1100 range.

Thanks I knew Borden made them wasn't sure about Phoenix the one pc bolts are nice but pricey!

The bolts costs more than the rest of the action.

Just want to chime in, my buddy just p/u my Stiller 6BR from his Hall of Famer BR shooter/gunsmith, and it looks SWEET!

I've heard a few say things about Stiller actions, but I like to go with my own experience making judgments, and MY action seems NICE. I am very optimistic the Bartlein bbl is going to make this package shoot like a Hummer. A few range sessions will tell.

FWIW, I was at the range recently, a guy had a Rem M7 lam. blue in 300 SAUM and the darned thing would not feed well if you pushed the bolt slow. I told him to ram it in there decisively as if he were making a fast 2nd shot in the field. If it does not feed well enough for him, I told him send it back to Rem who designed the whole thing.

Bottom line, those short fat cases I can imagine are a pain to function, which is why many guys who have been around the block prefer older tapered ctg. designs over newer sharper sholdered ones. They feed slicker on average. This is true whether comparing a 7x57/7-08 to a 284, or 308 to 300 Short Mags IMHO.

I can tell you, there is a reason for '700 clones' as I have sold my last Rem. and vow not to own another, and although many top gunsmiths can make them do great things, bottom line, a Custom action is IMHO, a better action 99% of the time. The fit/finish, tolerances, etc. etc. are there with a custom, and although I accept the 700 DESIGN is a good one, I like the custom extractors alone, among many other things when going a custom action route.

I'd imagine most any of these brand actions, will make the user happier in the end, in fuction and in pride, over a 700 any day, not to mention having a better resale value if that day comes.

6.5BR, I think that you will be very happy with it.
Butch

How are the 6.5x47s doing? I am looking to fill the void between my 260 and 6.5x55....talk about splitting hairs!

I hope to get it out very soon to sight in and perhaps kill something before season is over, but as soon settle on what stock it will be permanently be making a home in and a little load work done, I will get some pics on here if possible.

I am not good at posting photos, but I will try. I took it out once and shot a deer and it died. http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj197/butchlambert/DSC02240.jpg
Butch

This is my Grandson with mine and his deer. He uses a 30BR that is built like my 6.5x47L
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj197/butchlambert/cid_FBD4B984-C2E5-43AF-BBDC-E5D8CBE.jpg
Butch

Butch, I assume that is his Buck on the right....Zale

NICE, Butch, what action is your 47 on? Glad the plan came together. Those little BR's will surprise people with what they will do with their preferred powders.

It is built on a Mod 7 Remington,squared up, fluted bolt with Dans 40X bolt handle, Sako extractor, Shilen barrel, Jewell trigger, Anshutz bolt release, and a Brown Precision Pounder stock. The paint on the stock and the finish on the metal was done by Charlie Santoni or CAS11 on the forum. I made the scope bases out of aluminum to accept Jerry Stillers Rings and it has a VARIX111 in 2.5x8 Leupold.
Butch

No comment Zane.
Butch