I left Broadmouth Canyon the morning Jorge and his group arrived. I am sure Broadmouth were on best behavior after my hunt, I mean slaughter, it’s not hunting. Long report, please be patient and read the following.

With any group of people, organization, or company you have a few bad apples. For self-preservation and integrity from time to time you have to weed the garden. With modern social media our passion and sport is under severe attack and fighting for its life. We cannot tolerate bad apples.
I am an older very successful retired professional hunter, outfitter, and worldwide hunter. Please excuse me for saying that but it’s just a way to say, “I have been there done that”, and qualified to observe fair chase hunting through a good lens and perspective. Please read the following and act to save our sport. You can imagine what will happen when the antis get a hold of this. This report is not about me, it’s about our future.
I booked a 3 Day elk hunt with Rulon Jones, Sept. 22-24 2016. and his outfit Broadmouth Canyon. I hesitate to call it a hunt as it was more like herding, terrorizing, yelling, screaming and shooting domestic cattle. Broadmouth Canyon is a 5000-acre high fence elk operation owned by Rulon Jones. 5000 acres is pushing it, 10 hunters were on top of each other. I recently booked an elk hunt and little did I know they book 20 hunters every 6 days. Rulon’s son stated they hunt from Aug thru Nov. Folks that’s 320 bulls. They kill so many trucked in elk, they collect the guts after gutting in a barrel, haul them out of the field, later placing them in a large trash bag and haul them off to a dump site so the next group of hunters don’t know of the carnage with all of the gut piles laying around. They tell the naïve hunters they are for bear bait if the truck is discovered. Chase, Rulon’s son, took me to the bear bait, a 55 gallon barrel where table scraps are placed. One of many lies to follow.
I requested their best guide, which turned out to be Rulon’s son Chase, who actually runs the operation. Rulon only rarely shows up and does not even talk to or acknowledges the hunters when he walks by. One day I accompanied a hunter who paid $70,000.00 to shoot a 490 bull. I turned to Chase, and said what’s this guy’s name, and he didn’t even know his name. Each hunter has a guide equipped with a radio. When you book a hunt you pay a base price and pay more on a sliding scale as your checkbook and choice dictate and they try to get you to upgrade. First morning, me and Chase see a bull he says will score 390 in the distance. I said let’s get a closer look and he responds that he does not like that bull and we stay put. You are not given time to examine the bulls but told ballpark of score and hurry up and shoot, as they are hoping for an upgrade. If I am going to pay $14000 to shoot a pet bull, I damn sure want to look at him first. One morning, four of us go out together on the atv. We are on the road and a bull is laying down 75 yards off the road looking right at us. Chase says he will score 420. We watch several minutes with atv running, let 2 people out and turn around and leave. The whole time the bull is still there thru all of the commotion. Upon leaving, I asked Chase how he judged the size with the bull looking right at us. He said, “Oh I know that bull, seen him several times”. I’m sure he has. If you want a bull that scores 396, no problem, they will show the picture of your bull, then tell you to sit right here and they drive him to you. That is what they did to me, and ironically every hunter got the exact size he ordered prior in his contract unless he succumbed to pressure to upgrade. They upload your bull into another pasture and drive him to you. Do the math, where do that many bulls come from. I know that’s hunting, just a coincidence, yeah right. They put hunters on ambush spots, Chase orchestrates all of the other guides from a vantage point.
They surround the elk on ATVs with 10 guides and slaughter commence via constant radio chatter with the other guides harassing and herding the bulls whooping and hollering like a bunch of wild Indians. Chase says the bulls went 50 yards this way, tells guide to go this way or that, wait-stop, no, go the other way with periodic interruptions with the guides saying what do you want me to do now. At first they try to be discreet but by the last day it’s a full scale rodeo with all of the guides whooping, hollering, harassing and chasing the bulls per radio instructions to sitting hunters in ambush locations. Rulon shows up last morning and the word from Chase is “brown is down”. Too much money at stake, they have to complete the slaughter and here comes Rulon walking up the canyons yelling “hey bull, hey bull” over and over, driving the elk to positioned hunters.
Their favorite method is to opposition hunters on the high fence in a pincher point, then drive the bulls to them along the fence. One day they positioned 3 of us together on an ambush point alone along the high fence then all the whooping and hollering begins. I am thinking how is going to work? I ask Chase how we are to decide and who shoots and who is to communicate? Each of us had paid for a different size bull so that’s why us three were together. Chase says this is going to happen fast. He will judge the bull and tell which hunter to shoot. No one shoots. We return to the Lodge early afternoon. One of the hunters says he wants to go back out. Chase says no, no one is available. At dinner that evening one of the hunters not in our group starts retelling his kill which Chase conducted after taking us three back to the lodge. Liars never learn, the truth always comes out.
After Rulon avoided the hunters the whole hunt, Chase tells me his dad has shown up to help glass on the last morning. Actually he is there to deliver the bulls preordered as needed. Chase tells me that morning Rulon has spotted a 490 bull and another hunter is going to shoot it and let’s go see what else is with that bull. So we go to a deep wooded canyon that dead ends into the high fence with only one way is out towards the hunter so they can drive the bull to him. It is so thick with trees the hunter cannot actually see what is happening. You hear a bugle; they say this is the 490 bull. Actually it’s Rulon and Chase signaling each other to begin the circus. A bugle “ok we’re in position” Another bugle “turn him loose”. All the while the naïve hunter is excited. No bull shows up, another bugle to tell Rulon he has stopped, push him on out. Back and forth bugles between Rulon and the guides. Ironically this is the only bugling I hear in 3 days. You figure it out. It was Rulon signaling the guides. Finally, the 490 bull walks out going 90 degrees away. The excited hunter shoots and gets his bull. He is told they called the bull up when in fact he was driven from the thick brush in the corner. Chase turns to me and says there is a 420 bull that was with the 490, do I want to shoot him? You mean this unseen 420 bull just hangs behind for me to shoot throughout all this commotion, shooting and celebrating! Hey, it’s my lucky day. I say no, and Chase says a little girl is going to come shoot him. Let’s go. The girl, her father and the guide come walking up on the side of the mountain where we are sitting, pass us and get ready to shoot the bull as I am leaving. How do they just appear out of nowhere and know exactly where we are sitting like magic (gps and radio communication by guides). Not the first time showing for this movie, I have seen it before. This yet to be seen 420 bull is one patient SOB, hiding during the 490 bull’s slaughter, waiting for me to turn him down and another hunter to make the journey to shoot it. The bugling commences again signaling, turn him loose, the hunter is in position. The little girl gets her 420 bull.
I watch this slaughter and harassment until I am literally sick to my stomach. No I did not shoot a bull. I am a hunter. The last afternoon I try to be a gentlemen and say I am too sick to go out. I tell my wife who accompanied me, I will just keep my mouth shut, take my screwing and leave. Chase really pushes the issue as I am the last hunter not to shot a bull. Chase shows me a picture of a bull on his phone at the lodge, states he scores 396 and says how does this look. He says it’s no problem being sick, all I have to do is sit in one spot, no problem and the guides will drive him to me. Chase really pushes the issue because Rulon wants to make an extra $6000.00 upgrade to shoot the bull. They were so persistent I tell Chase to get Rulon, and we will have a conversation. I am really sick of my stomach by now and cannot take anymore.
We get together and I tell Rulon this is not hunting and more like professional wrestling and herding cattle. Throughout the hunt Chase and Rulon profess to being Christians. Upon my comment Rulon becomes belligerent, gets in my face, curses and all of a sudden he’s no longer a Christian. Not buying his bullying, I step up to the plate and put my face to his face. Boy, the look on his face, he is not used to this being a football player and celebrity. Many of the other hunters were equally disappointed, naive and or too embarrassed that they had made a mistake and conned. Damn, the cook tells my wife the same thing happened on the last hunt. Really nice couple on the hunt, all of a sudden they are irate and the fireworks begin upon discovering the hoax. Hey, money trumps ethics for some folks.
Fellows believe what you want, but it’s time to weed the garden and preserve our sport and passion. It’s not about me. I have already got my screwing. Our sport is under siege. We will not survive conducting ourselves this way. Act now before the antis finish us off!

I will not deny your experience but will say we did not experience any of that. When we talked to your group (we overlapped one night) they all seemed pleased, although they admit that the weather I fished through was fog up there that cut their hunting down to two days.

The bulls we saw were skittish and I don't believe in any way anyone could have ridden an ATV or horse up to one.

Sorry you didn't get the same experience we did. What the three of us wrote was very accurate about our hunt and we didn't see that behavior from the guides.

Crazy!

Wow, Not at all. We all knew and reported here when we first booked it was a fenced operation, but I did never see either a cavalcade of bulls paraded. My bull showed up alone and was very wary. I have no reason to shill for Rulon and in our case, Rulon showed up every day and was very gracious to myself and my wife, even offered his own horse for her to ride as she had never done so. Hell. I'm am impressed at just fourteen posts in four years and it shows up right after ours. Like Pugs, not denying your experience, but again very impressed with your timing. I see you posted over on AR as well, where you say you are also a PH. Don't think anyone's going to call you a liar, at least not me, but any particular reason as to why you waited to post this? You finished your hunt three days before we did. Must have been upsetting for you.

For some reason they overlapped two hunters forward one day into the next hunt, one being the gentleman who shot the 490 bull. The remaining others left when I did. Jorge, do not judge a man's expertise by whether he is a internet BS wizard. MAY GOD BLESS we all need a little help, including me.

Question for the OP. So you went to a high fence operation and you expected a real hunt?

Interesting how we had two completely different experiences. Sorry yours wasn't as pleasant as ours.

Our write ups are accurate accounts from our perspective, as I'm sure you feel yours is. We knew it was a high fence area before we got there. I can say I rode, I glassed, I hiked all to my hearts desire. The first two days the only massacre I experienced were my lungs and thighs. I enjoyed the horses, and I enjoyed the stalking.

Did I see Rulon and Chase run a drive? Sure did. Did I find that alarming. No, we do it for deer in Georgia and Alabama all the time. In Alabama, it is legal to run deer with dogs. Not everybody is going to like that. In South Alabama, it is a tradition.

We had an older gent in camp, and I found him interesting to talk to. Old Skip is 78, and he has hunted all over North America in his time. He has the Grand Slam of North American Sheep. He has caribou, brown and black bear. He's been to New Zealand for Red Stag and Greenland for Musk Ox. He has a wonderful, supportive wife that shares his love of hunting.

I saw Rulon set up a drive for Skip. Old Skip hunted hard the first two days, but Skip doesn't get around as well as I do. Skip shoots his Sako .300 WSM quite well, I noted from the bench. Did I mention that Old Skip is suffering from early stages of Parkinson's? That makes hunting a little tougher. So yes, I did see Rulon set Skip up in an advantageous position, and organize a drive. Some elk were pushed toward Skip, some doubled back. Some that went toward Skip hauled ass and never presented a shot. I said many, well let's be fair. They pushed 5 elk his way I saw. 2 stayed in the thick stuff and offered no shot, 2 were in full sprint and never within comfortable shooting range, and Skip got the one that presented himself at about 250 yards. Some people don't consider a drive sporting, I have no problem with the concept.

As far as overall lodge satisfaction, all I can do is tell you this. There were 3 other couples at the lodge with us. Only the men hunted. One was from northern Idaho, and he comes every year. Seems the wolves killed off the herd in his area, once 20,000 strong. One couple was up from Denver. Skip and his wife from Pittsburg. Then our group.

To sum it up, our collective group enjoyed it so much that we have an email circulating around so that everyone can exchange photos and keep in touch. The couple from Denver rebooked for next year before they left, as did the couple from northern Idaho. That makes our bunch 7 for 7 on satisfaction.

Face it. I knew going in that this wasn't a 10 day pack in wilderness experience. I love those, but that was not in the cards this time. A good one in BC cost two weeks and about $15k the last time I looked.

I'm not crazy about paying a premium for the bigger bulls, but that's been the norm in Europe for a long time. The difference between a CIC Gold, Silver, or Bronze level trophy in Spain, Scotland or Romania, for example is extraordinary.

Again, sorry your experience was negative. I wish you had come with our group and perhaps it would have been a better time.

Let me second that.

No way any elk I saw was going to let me approach on foot much less noisy ATV if they could hear me, see me, or scent me. I know, I tried.

I don't exactly follow these kinds of things, but it seems Rulon runs an operation that makes no secret about it's fence. If the operation was really as shady as the OP says, with that many disappointed clients, then I find it difficult to believe word hadn't been splattered all over the net on the various forums and blogs.

Wow.

Yes.

Excellent post, Jeff (Hatari). So it begs the question(s); A gent with as much experience as the OP (and over on AR he's posted he's a PH in Africa), why not do the research? Why only 14 posts in four years and all of a sudden he posts here and on AR specifically about this hunt AFTER we post ours (you had a four day head start on us, sir so why not post immediately?). We all went into this with our eyes wide open about it being a high fence operation, you sir, experience notwithstanding apparently went in with your eyes wide shut.

Well, reading between the lines (sorry, no sarcasm font) I'd say he has a thing against high-fenced hunts.

Then WHY go in the first place?

Good question. Did someone really kill a 490 bull2 there?

And a 518 typical, a new world record. The mount is in a taxidermy shop downtown Firth. I'll see if I can find the picture and post.

HEre you go:

Well, what I know is that I trust jorge and hatari's accounts of what happened, and their experience 100%.

The timing from the other party is, well, a little fishy to put it nicely.

A world record from a high fence operation?

Anyway, if you guys enjoyed yourselves why worry about what someone else has to say?

I'll admit that I am a high fence bigot. I call them petting zoos and similar descriptive terms. My impression is that South Africa has some fenced areas so large, over 30,000 acres that you couldn't count on being successful without diligent efforts- but I have no firsthand knowledge of them. The opportunity to fail has to be there for it to be a "real" hunt in my opinion. There are unfenced private ranches loaded with elk that realistically offer that same almost failure proof hunt but the animals can leave when they want and that makes a difference to me.

If you sign up to go to the petting zoo you shouldn't complain that the game was too easy to take.

When I am too old and infirm to hunt elk on foot in the mountains my perspective may change but I'm guessing I'll just park at the base of the hill and try and cover the lower escape routes. My have younger hunting partners who will likely be willing to help an old codger.

I trust the information provided by the guys who have a long history of posting here. They made it clear it's a high fence ranch.

Rulon Jones makes it clear in his advertising as well. I talked to Rulon about his place several years ago,he is totally honest.

Rulon stikes me a a typical western buisness guy with a LDS background.I have always got along well with these kind of folks. But like working men
anywhere,they want to make a profit and they don't like being jacked around.

If the party is fully aware of the 490 taken before their arrival......doesn't it somewhat legitimize the OP's claim of attendance?

The number of bulls required to meet the yearly demand is a legitimate concern. Would be interesting to see how many 'shipments' are required during those operating months.

Not a rabid anti-high-fencer.....but we offer fair chase hunts right next to TimberGhost......and we opened our business first.

Sounds to me like the guys that did their homework had a satisfactory hunt while the guy that didn't was disappointed.

Or.....one person was a little more 'tuned-in-to' or 'aware-of' the actual operation, as it unfolded.

Ignorance is truly bliss.

Driving whitetails is customary here in Iowa, during the shotgun seasons.

Driving animals with high fences......can be perceived as a bit too reminiscent of herding.

320 shootable bulls in 5000 acres is 1 shooter bull per 15 acres.

Do any of these elk qualify to enter into Boone and Crocket records?

None of us fell of the sugar cane cart last night. Like I said... We went into this with eyes WIDE OPEN. We also knew that in order to maximize success, we would probably have to upgrade and we did. Some of you folks are SO FORTUNATE to live in great places like Montana, Idaho, NM, etc and more importantly, HAVE THE TIME to invest in a wilderness hunt. We do not.
Suffice to say and my friends have echoed, we worked our butts off going up and down terrain we are not accustomed to, not to mention the altitude, and in the end and most of all what matters to ME, I worked for my elk and a 330 yard shot is the same here as it is anywhere else, including the moon.

Not if they were enclosed. Like Pope & Young, B&C has a fair chase requirement and enclosures are excluded from their definition of fair chase hunting.

SCI is different, from what I understand.

No doubt, and I'll say it again, if you guys got what you wanted out of the hunt and enjoyed yourselves, you shouldn't worry about what anyone else thinks, says, or writes. It's apparent that the OP has an axe to grind and wanted to crap on your posts about your hunt. You shouldn't let that (or anyone else) bother you since as you said, you went in knowing what you were getting.



Here's where I'd disagree, with all due respect. Getting that shot where you hunted is not the same as it is anywhere. With most elk hunting, getting a shot at an elk like the one you killed is not something that a self-described flatlander with no elk-hunting experience, no knowledge of the hunting area, and no time to invest would get in the space of a day or two.

I live here in Iowa (am still working full time)....and managed two Wyoming archery hunts.....one Sept.3rd thru Sept.10th.....and the second Sept.17th thru Sept.24th.

We hunted the west side (Alpine), zone 89, with general tags. Hunted the Little Greys river area.

The area we hunted was 3.1 miles back (by the GPS). The least we walked in a day was 8.1 miles, the most was 11.6 miles.

Beautiful country........the second week the Aspens were doing their thing.

Didn't fill may tag, but experienced (3) 6 point bulls, a spiker, and 14 cows. The second week included a full moon, which seemed to affect things. A very nice 6 point winded me at 29 yards, brush made things not work out.

Took 2 of my sons on the first trip, my wife on the second.

Now, biting at the bit to get back out there for the rifle opener in a little over a week. Will take 2 sons on this adventure also.

It is a hoot, cannot get enough.

If we don't fill tags next trip, we'll likely do something over Thanksgiving......and zone 3 general cow season goes through Jan.31st.

Most would probably say I didn't really have the TIME to do it.

And, really no need for an UPGRADE. The general tags are perfect for my 'excuses' to get back out there.

The years we don't draw generals......the zone 7 cow tags are always a hoot.....during the archery season.

Not judging, just don't see a need for any upgrade.

I was referring to putting "ordnance on target" given the yardage and incline. Math is math. As to what you are saying, I think I understand and agree.

I think the 330 yard shot would actually be easier on the moon since there is no atmosphere and less gravity than here on earth

Fact checkers.....have fun.

I guess what I was trying to say is, with a nice bull like that, making the shot is not the hard part, getting the shot is.

The reason I bring that up is, it may explain the OP's motivation. People who hunt public land, (where most elk hunting is done) can hunt a long time and not get a shot at a bull like that. So there may be some envy involved.

No offense intended to any party involved, but bull elk deserve to be hunted in the wild. Running them up a fence line to a waiting hunter?

Might as well shoot someone's horses. It'd feel the same with regards to satisfaction level and thrill of the hunt.

Bull elk in the wild, at least the ones I've hunted, have frustrated me, driven me nuts, kept me awake at night, given me years of daydreams, wore me out chasing them, outsmarted me, out-walked me, out-hid me, snuck by me, got in my face and lived to do it another day, and generally mocked and laughed all the way to the other side of elk world getting away from me. They are tough, savvy to callers, super keen to human intrusion in their area, adept at disappearing on a single wiff of a human or a snapped twig. They will run circles around you, chuckle at you, then drift off like a ghost.


Nothing about this fence hunting sounds like elk hunting, except maybe you climbed some hills that flatlanders aren't used to. I'd be disappointed after having done the real thing. If I'd never done the real thing, maybe it'd be awesome.

Or NOT! Perhaps there are many folks who COULD afford such a hunt, but choose not to.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt re: envy, but we just didn't walk up to this elk and whacked him, for me I had to work for it and no difference to the 350 yard shot I took in Africa (Dande North and of course NO fences)on a kudu bull, or the 200 plus yard on a deer here in Georgia (again no fences) . Like you said amigo, we enjoyed it!

Yes, and I'm one of them. I hunt public land, DIY.

But don't be an ass, and don't forget that not everyone hunts for the same reasons you do, or wants the same out of a hunt.

Evidently the OP COULD AND CHOSE to do so, otherwise why book there....

Your statement is correct. smokepoles brush was broadening with his statement, however.

Nobody is really worried about a counter opinion. We shared our good time with all on the Campfire. The OP jumped on this and cut loose with both barrels, on TWO internet sites. His experience was so different to ours how can we not comment?

I respect a differing opinion. Hell, I don't work for them. A few things that just strike me strange. Why would an experienced PH feign illness to avoid taking a trophy? Why demand "your best guide"/ (nice to have!) , especially if you don't like high fence hunting.. Hell, an experienced PH should be superior to most seasonal guides. Why go nose to nose with the owner, when there were other avenues? It just strikes me strange givenwhat I experienced.

None of us doubt the OPs story, and based on his account I fully trust he was in camp the dates he states.

What would I have done knowing the people involved and the place involved? Instead of feigning illness, I would have talked to Jaden, Chase, or Rulon and just explain that my expectations were different from what they offered and that I was going to pass on taking a bull. With that, I feel confident that they would have done their best to meet me half way. Likely, they could have invited me to a free range hunt on the adjacent 30,000 acres when the season opened, or some other solution. From my observation, these guys work hard to get everyone a trophy. They sell their stuff, to be sure, but I sense they want a Win-Win for all. I'm good with that.


Again, I wish the OP had been there a few days later. Ours was a pleasnt hunt, and now a good memory. Glad we could share it.

Struck a nerve, eh?

Pretty good description of elk hunting, where I hunt.

No nerve struck, smokepole.

The bull elk that winded me at 29 yards was not a booner or anything. My (oldest) son found a shed prior to labor day week, while scouting with friend Mark.

He looked very similar (like they all don't look similar). Would have been very happy with him, if things had worked out. Nice enough bull for me.

No broad brush Mike. If you go back and read what I wrote, it applies to one person only--the OP.

I can think of no other reason he would write that post, clearly his intent was to crap on the thread by Jorge and others, and the account of their hunt.

Agree. What ever floats your boat is ok with me, but "this is not the same as it is anywhere" if it's inside a high fense.

Maybe there's an explanation for OP's timing and intent. If taken at his word, perhaps he saw the collective praise being heaped on a high-fenced hunt as a genuine threat to the sport -fodder for the antis- and felt it was time to say something in order to squelch it.

This still would not explain why he himself would book a high-fenced hunt, be disappointed because it's a high-fenced hunt, and afterwards proclaim the dangers that high-fenced hunting presents to the sport. Maybe to him high-fenced hunting is OK as long as it's done discreetly, like autoerotic asphyxiation.

201k: Thanks for posting your account of Broadmouth Canyon. I am sure your experience was exactly as you related seen from your perspective. Anytime you post a negative report on any hunting forum others who have had an experience different from yours will indeed "shoot the messenger". There is a lot of "if it did not happen to me it did not happen" that occurs on any message board whether it is about outfitters, equipment manufactures, or anything else.

No doubt if you take him at his word he believes high-fence hunting is bad for the sport. I'm not advocating for it, and I wouldn't enjoy it myself. But the older I get the more I realize that my personal ethic doesn't fit everyone, and that's OK.

Having said that, if the conditions there were really as he described, it's a sham and it's not hunting. Seems like the jury is out on that though.




Do you know 201K personally? If so, your statement above makes sense. If not, how can you be so sure that his account was accurate, given that you don't know him and there are others who were actually there and didn't see the things he saw?

I'm not sure how anyone who hasn't hunted there is in a position to know.

Smokepole: I don't think 201k was "crapping" on others who had a different experience at Broadmouth. I think he was just offering a different perspective. As a do it yourselfer on public land you can certainly appreciate the difference. The best analogy I can make is listening to bird hunters who describe their "hunt" in South Dakota at a pheasant ranch shooting pen raised birds that were released the morning just before the "hunters" stepped off the school bus that brought them to the field. If they have never chased wild pheasants through a cattail swamp they just do not know the difference.

Yes there is a difference.

If a person doesn't "know", a good time can still be had apparently, probably buoyed by the size of the antlers collected no doubt.

I might share my thoughts on this. It's probably somewhere between the two,but if the participants are happy, then that is all that matters.

There is a high fence business about 6 miles from me. Quite a few years ago, the cost was $1000/point ( $12K for a 6x bull)

I bought hay there for quite a few years and knew the foreman quite well.

Each year, in December or January, he culled several bulls out that didn't look like they would amount to much.These were shot,dressed out and hauled to Denver to slaughter house that sold them to restaurants.

One year,I was out of work due to a back that went south on me and couldn't hunt. The foreman knew about it and called me to see if I wanted one of the bulls.These were all spikes and he knew I much preferred elk over beef. I think I paid about$800 for it

So one cold morning,I drove over. He drove his truck with a bed mounted winch on it. We we walked into the enclosure,walked about two hundred yards around a small hill and killed one of the bulls at about 60 yards with my 7 mag that the foreman pointed out.

We went back and got the truck, then drove to the elk. The foreman( Mike)gutted it for me and then we winched it on to the truck. He used the tractor to lift the elk off his truck and on to mine.

Once home,I used my tractor to hang it, then processed it to the freezer.

Not much different than killing a beef,except I usually kill the beef where I can lift it with the tractor.

Not really hunting I would say.Just filling the freezer. I certainly would not of had it mounted and hung in my den as a trophy even if it was 400 class bull

That part, the whole thing about upgrades based on antlers presumably to be mounted, and the volume of hunters in the OP's description is astonishing to me.
There are so many reasons for mounting a trophy and many times they have less to do with the size. Many times they are special hunts to be remembered for one reason or another (or you can flip that around and, for instance, see one killed by a truck and mounted just for its size.)

Sometimes outfitters or ranches will post up here and give the rest of the story in response to posts like this. Would also be good if the OP made himself available.
I would welcome hearing more from either.

That could've been converted into such a satisfying hunt, with only a few creative word substitutions.

"We walked into the guide-only designated wilderness area, skirted the near-vertical mountainside for 2000 yards, and killed the bull at 600 yards with ol'Betsy....after my guide vehemently declared "das da one you want".

You missed my point again. 330 yards is an absolute number and that is all I was saying.

Please indicate where I, Pugs or Hatari (sic) shot the messenger...

I don't know about that. At 7000', my lungs seem to think the oxygen supply equalled the Moon.

Went to the gym, got a workout in and thought about how the OP and Jorge could have come up with such different takes and it struck me that both could be more or less accurate. On 5k acres an operation like that could host hunters who just want a mature bull and are willing to get out and walk one up. Maybe it grew up there, maybe not. And then for the sports who want to "upgrade" and pay big bucks to shoot a 400 bull, maybe they put on a different kind of "hunt" and help the process along which is what the OP saw.

You can argue the merits of the former, if you're pursuing an animal that grew up wild on the property. You can't argue that the latter is hunting or should be celebrated.

Shades of Irish Elk!

Yet the difference is that on public land, there's nobody driving a bull towards you and no fence to keep him close. It's just not the same thing. Hiking with a guaranteed outcome vs DIY hunting. I have no doubt you put in some effort, but the outcome was never in question.

I've only been on here for a couple of months, so hopefully no one will judge me based on my post count. I have to get up for work in 4 hours, but this has got my goat.
This whole thread turns my stomach. When we start arguing the morality of whether someone with enough money should be guaranteed a bull, we should be posting in the "Elk Ranching" forum, not the "Elk Hunting" forum.
I've lived and hunted North Idaho for 30+ years. There are wolves here, but anyone who tells you they've "killed all the elk" is either misinformed or has an agenda. Idaho's elk harvests have been trending up for a number of years.

http://www.mtexpress.com/news/envir...f5e12f4-5901-11e6-b95a-7f214634620c.html

2015 was the best harvest since 1996? Huh.

What you are not going to get in Idaho is the ability to tell F&G or your guide what class of bull you want to shoot. I did, however, have an elk farm down the road from me which sold "hunts" from their 20 acre pen. They went out with a bang, too. The owner paid off his debt and shut down by allowing a blind "hunter" to shoot his herd bull, which he called by name over to the fence. He even held his rifle barrel to make sure he got a good kill shot. (Idaho counts domestic elk as livestock, you do not need a tag to shoot one.)The owner told me this story himself without shame. I see no difference between this and the outfit described by the OP.
(BTW - If you paid this outfitter tag fees or service fees for F&G, you might want to check to see if you even needed a tag for this hunt.)
Based on the OPs story, there is no way that kind of bull harvest is sustainable on 5000 acres without bringing in domesticated stock from somewhere. Fence or no fence, shooting domesticated elk is not hunting. That is simply indefensible. I've seen farm raised pheasant hunts in California so bad the guides had to throw the birds in the air to get them up.

As for a "New World Record Typical" - Is there any legitimate hunting organization in the world that accepts pen killed or domesticated elk kills in their record book?

Next - you cannot compare the North American hunting ethos with anywhere else on the planet to justify pen hunting. In the UK and Europe, the game was owned by the landowner, (aka royalty), they could mete out whatever fees or rules they desired. They could also punish as they saw fit anyone who killed game without permission. From it's discovery, our continent has allowed free men to take what they needed from the public lands with reasonable restrictions, usually self imposed. We do not, and should not, have a European or African system where you pay for what you take. Some of you might not be effected should the US Government decide to charge trophy fees. I personally would never be able go after a nice bull again.

Finally - When you cut through the "he said, then he said" and "Liar!, Liar!" on this thread, what you are left with is a judgement of the OP because he did not "do his homework". Or rather those who "did their homework" judging him for calling out the so called outfitter for running a game farm and calling it hunting. My heart hurts for the reported "little girl" who shot a trophy bull this way. She may never know what real hunting is. I am not naive. I have seen and been around some real slobs in my day. Idaho is chock full of those who zip up and down the roads in trucks and ATVs with total disregard for game laws or private property. I've always known they go home at the end of the day and tell the little woman what great hunters they are. Proof we all tell our wives the best part of the hunting tale and leave out the rest. When I grew up in California we drove Mulies and it was an accepted practice. But when we start quibbling over the size of the pen to define the morality of a hunt, it doesn't sound much different to an outsider as a discussion of what trimester it's ok to abort a baby.
Jose Ortega y Gasset wrote extensively about the hunter who judged himself and his ethos more than anyone around him. Particularly when he was alone in the field. We need to carefully examine the things we do and chose to defend.
This is why I prefer to hunt alone, I never disappoint anyone but myself.(and trust me, I have.) I sure as heck wouldn't hunt with most of the posters on this thread, even if they paid the bill.
I don't care how many posts they have.

These threads crack me up.

As long as the hunt is represented accurately, who cares? Looking at the website, and Jorge/Pugs/Hatari's report, it seems obvious that nothing is hidden. If the OP missed what was being sold, it seems to be a 100% on him.

If you're ok with shooting livestock, wild as it may or may not be, have at it. Have fun and enjoy it. Make it an experience. Take home some great meat and a rack.

If not, don't.

Can't see the point of hand wringing.

I care. Because it's not a dann hunt. Never was, never will be.

Sure it was. It was a hunt for elk in an enclosure. Maybe even non-wild ranch reared elk.

Hell, I hunted for my car keys yesterday morning. Lol.

Nobody lied to you about what it was or was not. Don't like it? Don't do it. If the practice of game ranching bothers you too much to sit idley by, I'd suggest contacting your legislature , or maybe PETA.

Jorge. Your hunt was your hunt. I'm fine with that. But to say you don't have time to invest in a wilderness hunt is disingenuous.

I have two weeks vacation/year that I must divide between visiting my parents in Miami (95 & 93), my wife's family in Pensacola and their cabin in the PA mountains and hunting. Do the math. I get to do DIY hunting here in south Georgia on the weekends during hunting season, and year round for hogs. It really doesn't matter. When I go to Africa and where I go is about as "wilderness" as one can get, I still get the business from some folks because we have to use a PH. Lesson here is if I were to suddenly announce I walk on water, somebody would chime in and say "yeah, that's because you can't swim"...

NOBODY, certainly not me, has called the OP a liar. I'm sorry this thread has upset you, and I'll try not to let the fact you don't want to hunt with us get to me....

Mad Mooner: SPOT ON.

Jorge,it's kind of mind-boggling that people are pissed at how others spend their money. You,Pugs and Hatari went on a elk hunt,killed a bull apiece and had fun. Someone else did the same hunt and did not get a bull or even have fun,and some how that's a pox on the three of you.

Been on plenty of elk hunts on public land and not even see a bull. Do I complain to NMG&F for me not killing a bull or demand my money back. No,that's hunting,take it or leave it. I enjoyed being away from civilization for a few days and just being "out there."

Do you consider hunting the Vermjo, Moreno Valley, CS etc. the same as hunting public land? Yes, I get they are all fair chase and free range, but the outcome of those hunts are pretty well guaranteed as well.

Not a dig, but I can't see knocking a guy for how he chooses to spend his money.

Especially when they were honest up front about it.

I haven't seen anyone say they're pissed at Jorge and his group for how they chose to spend their time and money.

I think the second part of your quote gets to the issue people have--whether it fits their definition of hunting. Or "the" definition of hunting.

If the animals are free-ranging that's one thing. If they were raised like cattle, that's another.

Yea, whats the big deal? A good cattle prod gets 'em out of the box......and a decent taxidermist can fix any resulting rack dings from the stock truck. All in jest.

But, never say never.

When the 'deplorable' local country clubbers ask why I never took up golf....we always insist on the possibility of taking up the sport....when too old to hunt/fish.

They always take it as an insult, like we wouldn't golf unless we were one leg out of the crypt.....that even a near-dead, old geezer can golf.

And really didn't mean it that way.....OK, yes I did.

Most anyone that has hunted RSA is familiar with enclosures.

One of my personal goals is to give all 5 sons opportunities at hunting/taking mature Whitetail deer, Mule Deer, Elk, Pronghorn, and Black Bear.

Throwing out more money could maybe make things easier......but elk shouldn't be easy anyway.

Like golf, no elk fences for me, not now anyway.

I was able to walk up on cattle whilst there. The elk, the closest I was able to get was 300 yards or they launched.

Jorge, like I said earlier, it's possible that you and the OP had entirely different experiences, with some animals free-ranging and some not.

And I will say this--the reason the OP gave for his post was (in so many words), because he's concerned about the future of hunting and doesn't want hunters to get a bad reputation for the things he observed and described in his post.

Well, your account had none of those things in it, and his did. So if we're all so worried about what non-hunters think of us, which post (yours or the OP's) on a public forum has the most potential to damage our reputation with the non-hunting public?

Non-hunting public is not our concern. The anti-hunters are. And they don't care why or how you hunt. They want to stop you!

No. If anything non-hunting public is the most important sector. They are really the most influential segment.

Fair enough .

Exactly right Alamosa. Sure the anti's want to stop us, but nothing we say or do will change their minds because they are not open to reason. I don't really care what they think, they're so ignorant and emotional that their opinions don't mean squat to me.

And they can't do diddly on their own, they need to get enough of the non-hunting public on their side to effect any change.

It's the non-hunters, the undecideds who can be swayed by things like the OP described that we need to concern ourselves with.

I wish the OP would follow up with more about his gripes. I’m trying to read between the lines and see if I understand his main complaints correctly.

It sounds like he expected to hunt a 5000 acre enclosure (that is not as big as it sounds but sporting enough). Instead he felt the bulls were herded into small canyons. I don’t think the ranch could make a profit if they allowed hunters to wander the entire enclosure and be selective.

The OP describes the upgrade thing like it was kind of like ordering off a menu beforehand and kind of a hard sell.

I think he also objects that it is a little too much like a slaughterhouse assembly line process with hunters queued up for the next bull to be herded to them (if that is actually how it really was).

The overriding concern of the OP seems to be the representation of hunters, et al., but it sounds like customers are lining up with checkbooks open for this service. The market often dictates a lot. When other customers here seem to be happy with the service then I think those last couple sentences, i.e., ‘we won’t survive’, and, ‘antis finish us off’, might be a little too heavy on the drama. Might have been better for him to say it just wasn’t what he wanted/expected because his own post may be the most damaging testimony to ‘hunters’.

5,000 acres is about three miles square on each side. That is way! more land than most city and suburban folks think about.

Looks like the Ranch was emptied in 2015. So much for any native 'free-rangers'.

Aren't there ANY cow elk on the Ranch?



link

Fair enough. I apologize.

Jorge, you could have went on a real wilderness hunt for less than you paid to kill an elk at that high fence operation.

Jorge, glad you and the boys had a good hunt. Nice bull.

Everyone should be able to hunt how they want. Jorge and his friends hunted how they wanted. Obviously, the OPs hunt was not what he wanted and he called a halt to it. Everyone did what they thought was right and decent and no one did anything illegal. We shouldn't all get our panties in a twist over this.

In everything I've ever seen about them, Broadmouth Canyon has never represented themselves to be anything more than what they say. They are a high fence operation that gives hunters opportunity to stalk and kill decent sized bulls. Any experienced hunter would or should understand what type of hunt that is. Jones has been in many of the hunting magazines over the years and it is always stated that it is high fenced. So, if you hunted there and didn't understand that was what you were getting, you either didn't pay attention or chose to ignore it. In any case, if the OP is unhappy, it's his own darn fault. JMHO.

Hear! Hear! That's the spirit!

Let's call Fish and Game and git them azzholes straightened out straight away!

There is a lot of dumbass in Oregon.

Kind of a weird "report" from someone with your credentials. Would you go on another high fence hunt?

I would think anyone with experience who objects to high fence hunting and does not want that type hunt, would know to avoid Broadmouth Canyon Ranch.

The place is not exactly spot news.It's been around for years.....

But I guess it's possible for stuff to fall through the cracks.

it must be a big crack......

There is always someone on the internet to oppose any thought, idea, or experience.
You had a good time with friends, sounds like you had all of the exercise you could enjoy, and you took a great trophy to remind you of it. Thumbs up!

The OP reminds me of my brother. Everywhere I took him with me he had problems with the management. It didn't matter if it was my favorite rifle range, restaurant, hunting lease, auto salvage yard, whatever.

I don't go anywhere with him now, life is full of peace.

Sounds like the 'fire in general. There are an awful lot of folks here that choose to live miserably.

You are right, Seems like just saying great hunt glad you had good/great time is hard for some folks too say..

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


This

Unfortunately that's way too accurate. Makes you wonder if they know how to have a good time of if they just enjoy being miserable.

Yes, but to the uninitiated, phrases like "5000 acre preserve" and "fair chase feeling" can be misleading.

Not to mention front and center the " 518" World Record Typical Elk".

World record of what?! Feedlot cervids?........

Casey

:::SIGH::: ad-puke, the only one "shocked" at the well-described and long in existence operation was the OP. As to the world record, I suppose the antlers were glued on and regarding feedlot cervids, unlike here in the south, I did not see a single feeding station and I'll let the photos speak for themselves as far as the terrain. While there is no doubt elk in an eight square mile high fence operation lead short lives, I worked pretty darned hard for mine.

Jorge,

I look forward to meeting you next year at the DSC show.

Same here. We'll be there Wednesday through Sunday. Once we get closer to the date, I'll start a thread over on the Africa Forum and maybe we can exchange contact data via PMs.

Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't waste a single breath trying to justify why I went on a legal hunt, with friends, and had loads of fun doing it.

Misery loves company, as EdM correctly pointed out.

Hunters truly are our own worst enemy.

It is NOT because some hunters choose to spend their dime on a ranch hunt...

From the website:
"The elk that live on the preserves are self-propagating."

link

Not according to the link MIKEWERNER posted, here are a few excerpts:

"Officials inspect the fence twice a year and ranch hands check it regularly, Jones said, almost on a daily basis in summer months. Bad fences can cost the ranch its investment in domestic game animals, he noted, as the elk to stock a preserve cost from from $3,000 to $10,000 each."

"Since the eleven (elk) from the Howe ranch were tested, he said about 18 more elk have been imported from other areas around the country to keep the guided hunts going in the preserve, which earn in the $5,000 range and up. Testing on those elk taken by hunters has been negative for CWD, officials and Jones said."

Holy smokes! If true, I need to sell our cattle and re-assess what to do with our 7000 acres. Beef price is in the dumps anyway

According to the link.....there were only 11 total elk on the ranch (probably all bulls), 20+ state-owned deer, and 2 state-owned moose. Every animal was killed then.

I'll ask again.....were any cow elk spotted that were positively inside the fence (and not 'miles away')?

Rest assured.......no anger or unhappiness on this end.

We leave for a fair-chase hunt this Thursday evening, and could not be happier.....even with full moon, tent camping, and projected heavy rain.

Wait a minute, perhaps Cariboujack is 100% correct......we'll just 'enjoy' being miserable.

Seriously, whatever floats your tent, no judgements on this end.

We saw cow elk on at least two different occasions and definitively inside the wire. Also saw several moose and bison. I don't think the fact many elk are "put" is in question.

Thought you mentioned/linked the herd was 'self-propagating'. Did not see any cows mentioned in your report, which is why it was asked.

The only mention of cows recalled, (I) will have to re-read reports.

Bottom line and truth is "I don't know", but you can check with them.

Thank you for the offer, but we're going to be busy packing......so (God-willing) we can enjoy being miserable this weekend.

It's a little funny that when you can go after an animal and there is a predetermined outcome that you will kill it, that people are calling it hunting. If hunting is paying an outfit money and getting a guarantee you will kill whatever size animal you paid for then I've been doing it wrong. I guess the last time I got a pig and killed it that's hunting then. I ordered a 300# pig and that's what I got. Plus it was a lot of work to get it in the pickup once it was dead. So I guess that's called hunting now days. I did forget to take trophy pics and mount it though. I'll remember for next time.

Sorry for the sarcasm but if this is considered hunting now days then I don't want to be considered a hunter. I don't want my boy learning to 'hunt' that way.

As for the original post I'm surprised you expected anything different on a high fenced ranch?

Remember the Indian reservation in I think Arizona? One of the young men went college. When he returned he convinced the tribe to forget the cattle business and advertise for high dollar elk hunts. They required the elk to be a five point or better before the hunter could kill it. The rest is history.

I remember one guy paid "only" $25,000 for a fantastic head. I told my wife at the time, "When you're making $50,000 a week you get used to numbers like that not being big."

The members here who went on this hunt reported that the elk were spooky and had to be stalked, else they'd blow out of the area. They feel they had to work for their elk, and they're obviously proud of their accomplishments. I'm not sure how that equates to a guaranteed kill or ordering a pig from a hog yard.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The hardest hunt I ever went on was for fallow deer behind a high fence in Argentina. A fence that was down in several places and had huge holes dug underneath that allowed critters to come and go as they please (I realize the fence in question is/was monitored, but I will bet there are spots that animals could cross). I hunted for days before I even saw a decent fallow buck. The easiest hunt? Caribou 100 miles from the nearest road. As long as you got in front of the herd, all you had to do was wait for the right one. It was stupid easy to do, with any kind of hunting smarts...unlike the fallow hunt, which was as difficult as stalking turkeys.

Jorge, don't let any of this sniping detract a bit from the fun of that hunt. It probably already has, but ignore the rest of it. The only joy some of these critics ever get is spoiling the fun for others.

I whole heartedly support the right of a landowner to high fence his property, and I support people's right to shoot behind them. Having said that, I have no respect for those who do, and would rather shoot a doe out back of the house,than a large buck or bull behind a fence. At least the doe can get away. To each their own.

It says 100% guaranteed on the website from what I read. That's why I say it's guaranteed whether somebody had to stalk the animal or not.
If it's a guarantee then it's not a hunt. It's a shoot. If you don't see a difference between the two that's fine with me. Our opinions differ is all.

For the guys that bought some bulls from this place besides the op. I did not go on your thread and post my thoughts because I didn't want to bring negativity to your thread and I won't. This is an entirely different thread from that. I'm not trying to put anyone down.

Regards, Branden

Well, 201k..., then, I think you should have known better.


To the others: Hunting behind a fence is hunting behind a fence, regardless how much the property has prepared things to make it aesthetically acceptable. Coping with this fakeness just depends on how much uncritical you are with the ways you act as a hunter.

But this is something intimate and personal and I would never dare to reprobate anybody for hunting behind a fence.

Finding it acceptable demands a more accommodating or indulgent character than many of us may have but it is everybody's personal choice.

I'm a southern flatlander with two weeks of vacation each year. This year I'm doing a public land backpack hunt out west with a friend. I do not have a tag, I'm just along for an extra set of eyes and legs. This is not uncommon, lots of guys roll that way. To me it has little to do with what goes on the wall. To some it has all to do with what goes on the wall. Heck, I've been on the trail every morning for the last several months at 4:30 with a headlamp and 60lb pack just so I can tag along. Whatever floats your boat. I wouldn't do a canned hunt for a "world record" elk if it were free. Others will pay a crazy amount of money for it. If thats how you like to spend your money and time its sure not for me to criticize. FWIW, my wife thinks I'm the crazy one. It might have something to do with setting up and testing my sleeping system, including tent, in the bedroom for the last several nights. LOL

Thanks and it hasn't. To quote an old Navy expression:
DILIGAF...

"No doubt if you take him at his word he believes high-fence hunting is bad for the SPORT. "

I dont think most high fence hunting can be referred to as a sport. Killing is killing, not hunting, though going to a pinch point and shooting something driven does involve aspects of it.

Simple fact, commonly avoided......NO ONE HAS CRAPPED ON JORGE'S GROUP ELK THREAD!!

This thread was started by 201k, and the discussion is (#1) whether he was there.....and (#2) whether his points concerning the ranch are valid/legitimate.

And canned hunts are taking more and hunting country and turning them into "farming country" every year, where normal wild deer and elk are not wanted.

Money ruins everything it seems.

In Texas, hunt your ass off all your life and kill a 169 buck and you have accomplished nothing. The kid across the street, who couldnt sneak up on a dead deer has a 200 incher his dad bought on the wall.

I guess some think the blessing of our once wild game animals should stay game animals rather than be equated with something bought and paid for. Let the moneyed get a Maserati.

Or....those that do take that 169 care little what others think and see it as a personal accomplishment. No public praise required.

The problem is that kid that tries to convince everyone there is no difference in the way he took the 200 inch (given it was a fence hunt). He posts his hunt ALL over the internet. If everyone does NOT accept the kid's view concerning the hunt....they're quickly labeled as jealous, unhappy, miserable.

It's a matter of personal code/ethics. Personal, not forum-majority popular opinion.....or popular personalities.

I have a friend who makes more than a quarter million a year. He drives a seven or eight year old car. If you didn't know you wouldn't know he makes a lot by most standards. His wife has a nice van for to haul the kids.

What would he do with a Maserati?

My view is that high fence operations are farming. Privately owned elk or deer are livestock. The farmer can breed, raise, and butcher his own livestock in whatever manner is most profitable.
Elk fed hay and/or grain from feeders will become as tame as cattle. OTOH, range cattle can be as wild as wild elk, although a whole lot noisier when they run. A large fenced range where the elk are never handled or hand fed can produce elk as wild as those outside the fence.

These abnormally large antlered elk are the product of carefully controlled breeding programs and won't be found in the wild. The rancher has a pile of money invested in his breeding program and deserves to get the biggest return possible on his investment. It's no different than any other businessman who develops a product and tries for the biggest possible return in the market.
It's not my cup of tea but I have no problem with anyone who has the money to spend on it.

It doesn't matter what Kind of car you drive. Hunting wild animals is hunting wild animals, and hunting animals that were bred, raised, and released is animal husbandry.

Well of course, what do SOME of the wealthy do with their $20,000 whitetails, elk and plastic tits?

Sorry, RM, I didnt mean to indicate ALL the wealthy do that.

I erroniously once harboured the stupid idea some things besides salvation should be sancrosanct. Of course, as you know, some would disagree even with that. Thanks, jag

5000 acres isn't squat for an elk. This was nothing more than a canned hunt. The B&C club agrees with me as well.

Okay.

Sorry but yes,a canned shoot. Nothing more nothing less. If you broke a sweat climbing off a horse to shoot does not change the facts. As some one else said they could have had the same hunt on a ranch elsewhere and the animals would have been free range. However they have groceries in the freezer. JMHO

I mentioned a few ranches earlier that many people hunt yearly. They are all "free range and fair chase", but most of the elk are born and die on the same property. A few of the ranches have full time biologist to manage the elk for hunting.These ranches have ran 100% success for years.

Are these really that different?

I completely agree that high fenced hunts are not eligible for B&C or P&Y but is an animal that came off a ranch like this "equal" to an animal that was killed DIY on public land? I guarantee the bow hunter that kills a 375 bull on public land DIY doesn't think so.

Sometimes I think we are our worst enemy, not the non-hunting or anti's.

I can guarantee that this rifle hunter who killed a 320" bull with two of his best friends couldn't be more proud of his 100% wild, public land, free range, no horses, no fences, sleeping in a tent diy memory.



tedthorn, Snellstrom, graybird/imgoofy




I will add.....we had over an 8 mile round trip and took two trips.





I've hunted free range elk on public and private land and they act entirely different towards hunters because of hunting pressure.

8 square miles of high fence on a horse might just be comparable to fishing in a stocked trout stream

Its not for me

But as stated by myself on AR....

Jorge, I'm glad you enjoyed your trip and I'm also glad you accomplished harvesting a very large bull elk.

tedthorn,

Guys who use horse are not really hunting? How 'bout mules or llamas? Are those guys hunting?

Those horse guys are indeed hunting....

But in our area a horse or mule is mostly not an option.

Explaine how you derived that I said that using a horse is not hunting?

There's a lot of truth in that, and there's a broad continuum of difficulty in fair chase hunts. One thing's for sure and that is, no matter how far you hike or how "hard core" your hunt is, there's always someone right around the corner who can make you look like a piker.

Personally I don't consider it "hunting" when the animal was bred, raised, and bought by someone who then turns around and sells me the privilege of shooting it for a profit. That's just a business transaction.

My two cents for what it's worth, but it seems like jorgi is up front about what this "hunt" is. It's obvious this sort of thing isn't for the majority of us even if was within our means, but at the end of the day a guy got out in the outdoors with his friends and came home with meat. Sounds good to me. Never fails to surprise me how tough hunters are on each other in regards to how their way is the only way and if you do anything else you are less then.

The only point that got me thinking in a negative way against this type of deal was the point made about how this kind of operation can potentially lead to loss of opportunity for other hunters. I think that's a thought worth pondering though it would probably take an extremely long time to come to fruition in any large way.

Jorgi, congrats on a fun time with your buddies. Not for me, but if it floats your boat good for you.

Exactly.

Unless you run around in a loin cloth chucking spears, someone will always say there way is more "sporting".

Maybe some here will remember the flack some guy got for taking an elk with a spear. You just can't please some people.

He didn't get flack for taking an elk with a spear. He got flack for being a douche on YouTube.

Good post, I fail to see how this will affect average hunter?

Sounds like Jorge and friends had a great time and fun hunt.

Jorge didn't portray this hunt as though it was a wilderness hunt and didn't brag as if he accomplished the same as a public land hunter on his own or even an outfitted wilderness hunt I don't see the problem?

I for one am glad they enjoyed themselves.

Some of the responses here just bewilder me.

Jorge, Hatari, et.al. went on a nice hunting trip/vacation with their spouses and good friends. They paid for it with their own money they worked hard for and earned. They never represented the trip as anything other than what it was and posted a story and pictures about the fun they had.

Yet, some here take on like they robbed a bank to pay for it, then spotlighted the elk out of season then tried to claim the heads were the new B&C world records.

Why such a visceral reaction from some quarters? It makes no sense.

Would the OP complain about hunting pigs in Idaho? We have only 1 tiny herd of wild pigs here and they can be very hard to find. That's why they haven't been eradicated by the F&G. There are game ranches that have pig hunting and that's the only way you can reasonably expect to hunt them.

When you consider the Mark I/MOD I "Righteous Usual Suspects" it makes perfect sense.

We all have our opinions. Yours and mine aren't always the same.

Thanks Ringman, I got a chuckle out of that one.

This wasn't a hunt..

one

Chronic wasting disease for one. If you read the link MIKEWERNER posted, it's there at Jones' ranch. There's a reason the state inspects his fences regularly.

Devaluing of the meaning of "hunting" for another. If breeding and raising animals in captivity, then selling them to a "rancher" who in turn sells the right to shoot them inside a fence is accepted as "hunting" then hunting loses an essential element.

When people ask me why I hunt, I tell them that I can take photographs and be an observer of nature or I can go hunting and be a participant. Hunting is participating in nature, not a business transaction. It's called hunting (not killing) for a reason and that is, the outcome of hunting is in doubt. When it's all arranged nicely beforehand and I can choose the size of the rack I want to hang on the wall based on how fat my wallet is, that's not hunting. And yes, I understand that there are places where the hunting is fair chase but still at or near 100% success, but at least those animals aren't bred and raised in captivity, bought, and paid for.

All my friends and co-workers know that I love to hunt, and they know I take a few weeks off every year to go hunting and it's important to me. I don't want people reading an account like 201k's and thinking that it resembles my favorite thing to do in any way, shape, or form.

That's why I say "it's not hunting."

I see a parallel with youth sports. When I was a kid, the only way to get a trophy was to be the best at whatever you were doing. Now, kids get trophies for just showing up. That devalues the trophy, and I think it's sad.

And as others have said, I'm not commenting or posting on jorge's thread, I'm commenting on 201k's.

No it's not. It WAS there and that is no longer the case, otherwise we could not have taken the meat. As to the rest of your views and assumptions, I'll not try to validate nor justify, but if you think the "antis" are going to respect you or our sport more because you choose a different modus operandi, you're only fooling yourself. We are our own worst enemies sometimes.

Wrong on both counts, jorge. First, if you knew anything about chronic wasting disease you'd know that infectious prions can persist in the environment long after diseased animals are removed. And you'd also know that one of the most if not the most significant vectors for spreading CWD in North America has been the commerce in and transport of farmed elk.

To your second point, as I've said before I don't give a damn what the antis think because they're not open to reason and I know I'm not going to change their minds, just as they won't change mine. And antis are a small fraction of the population that cannot affect hunting on their own.

I do care what the general public thinks because they are open to reason, they are the majority, and their opinions can be swayed by things like the original post of this thread. And I know that what we do as hunters matters to them because I've talked to a lot of them. Many are not anti-hunting but don't generally have a positive impression of hunters and hunting because they have some misconceptions. They tend to remember the negative stories they hear but not the positive ones. Like the thread about the elk carcass dumped along the road in Colorado. Some of these people are my co-workers and some are even vegetarians. When I explain my reasons for hunting and how I hunt, every one of them has said something along the lines of "that sounds OK to me (some have even said "that sounds cool") "but most of what I've heard about hunting makes it sound like the animals have no chance." And they don't like that.

Here in CO we lost our ability to hunt bears in the spring because of a ballot initiative where antis were able to get enough of the voters on their side to pass the measure and ban spring bear hunting. So it does matter.

You're right that we are our own worst enemies, but not for the reasons you intimate. For the general public, being exposed to things like the OP posted is far worse in terms of shaping their attitudes toward hunters and hunting than being exposed to hunters arguing the ethics of it.

Absolutely right.

IF the animal I hunted, sorry, shot had CWD, I would not be able to take the meat. As to the OP, HAVING BEEN THERE and nobody else here has, and witnessing an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT scenario, we'll have to agree to disagree... I had a GREAT time on my HUNT.

Odd how the OP has 15 posts...then seems to disappear...

Educate me on the subject. It has been a few years since I hunted a CWD unit and veterinary medicine may have advanced. Maybe 5 ago when I last hunted an area that was a CWD unit there was no test available for a live animal. The test involved coring a sample out of the brain stem of the animal then sending it for testing. Hopefully something better has come along since then.

The politics of pen raised elk was a dangerous thing, here at least, because it came under regulation of the dept of agriculture rather than the dept of wildlife so for far too long there was no testing.

Smokepoke is speaking the truth when he talks about prions in soil. I believe that can be mitigated but someone has to actually do it.

Several people have commented on that.
Seems weird to write up a long controversial post then disappear and not be available to explain or discuss the assertions made.

That's how they did it as I described on a previous post. A portion of the brain stem was removed and sent off for testing. As to the soil issue, I can't comment as I do not know.

Broadmouth Canyon Ranch has hunts in both ID and UT. I don't know which this state thread is about. CWD has never been found in ID but it has in UT.

It was in Idaho

Right you are. This is interesting reading:

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2006/sep/07/escaped-elk-cause-for-concern/

I don't think he "seems to" disappear, he pulled a friggin' Houdini....

Game farms are what brought CWD to my home state.


As to the original posters disappearing act. Highly suspicious and probably has an ax to grind. In addition if he didn't know this was a canned hunt his reading comprehension is pretty poor as its laid out on the website.

That doesn't change the fact this wasn't an elk. If Jorge and his crew are happy with that, that's on them.

OneX2

I'd go one further and say it's chickensh*t to make a post like that, (which was effectively an upper-decker on jorge's other thread) and then not show yourself again.

Smoke: The "upper deckers" would have shown up regardless. Plenty here already.

True, but that is since 2011. Only two on this topic. He may not be as regular as Metamucil, but obviously wanted to counter what the Campfire boys did for some reason.

201K: The scenario you describe makes me sick also!
That is NOT Hunting!
Whether gorge says so or not.
Sad!
ALL... of the Big Game I have harvested in 58 years of Hunting have been fair chase - I would NOT even consider "high fence" type Hunts as "sporting".
Shame on those who put on and shame on those who partake of such crap!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Now that this moron has posted, I feel even better 😀
Oh, #2

PS: "gorge"? Classic

Gorge: You calling anyone a moron is laughable.
And you dare not call yourself a sportsman!
Sad pphuck.
You are you own just reward.
He-he.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yep. " Counter-intuitive Validation"

What varmintguy and the others are really saying....

LOL that might be what VG said but it's not even close to what I said.

Hold into the wind!

Way above that douche-bag's pay grade. If you google the type of people that place an exclamation point after everything they post, it has something to do with the IQ of a squash , validated of course with the fact he has issues with spelling..

Signed: Jorge the Sportsman,

I only have one question ...... does elk taste better when transported via horse trailer?

I do not judge.

Smoke, thanks for mentioning cwd, although I think the biggest vector for it's initial spread was actually whitetail pens, not elk. But, same difference really. It is issues like farmed ungulates spreading disease to wild ungulates, that really impacts public land, public wildlife, and hunters. And yes, farmed elk have a higher chance of transmitting disease to wild elk than say cattle, because fence line contact will be much higher among the same species.

As far as transporting meat cwd endemic areas or from cwd affected farms there are multiple regulations at work. One, States may have laws preventing you from moving the brain of spinal column from endemic areas elsewhere within the state, or out of state. Similarly, your "home state" may have rules preventing the importation of spinal column from areas they consider cwd endemic. Meat really isn't the issue, its the spinal column. I imagine this ranch has gone through a quarantine where they have tested negative for x amount of years, and hunters can now transport with no restriction?? I'm not sure.

There was an escape of farmed elk across the border in Idaho a few years ago. The state extended the seasons in surrounding areas to try and aggressively remove animals that potentially carried disease and or undesirable genetic traits. Native elk of course were killed along with the escapees. Another example of privatized "wildlife" impacting all of our publicly owned wildlife.

Pigs are another phenomenal example of individuals looking for good sport really phugging up public resources. Enough said.

I bring these examples up only to illustrate how these farms really do affect the average hunter, and our public resources. It's not as simple as "I don't want to hunt like that".

Jorge et. al. I'm glad you had a great hunt. Really I am. But I'd like hunters to consider these above points when looking at booking a hunt in the future though.

What would he add to the program? Continuing arguing? Maybe he didnt want to argue. Many state their case and drop it- especially after getting kicked by a bunch.

I think in fairness to jorge's group, he should've hung around to defend his opinions. Since their experiences were so different, there are a lot of unanswered questions.

Some questions shouldn't be dignified with an answer.

Since today is Sunday, I will cite Luke 6:37 as a great place to start.

I know of no requirements on this, or any site, for someone to answer questions or defend his/her position once he/she has made it known. That said, it seems to me that a guy who joined 24HCF on 03/30/10 and has only made 15 posts in 6.5 years must not be very interested in the site, the variety of discussion topics, or he only posts when he has something very specific to say.

As was previously noted, it seems odd that he would suddenly show up to post about his contrasting Broadmouth Canyon experience after having only made 2 previous posts in 2016, 1 in 2015, 4 in both 2014 and 2013, none in 2012, and 2 in 2011. If you look at 201K's previous posts, they were all short, usually just one sentence, and none of them showed any deep feeling about the subject. Prior to the 2 posts about Broadmouth Canyon, his other 13 posts were distributed as follows; 4 each were in the classifieds, 2 each were in Africa and Express Rifles, and 1 each were in Ask the Gunwriters, Combination Gun, Custom Rifles, Hunting Rifles, and Long Range Hunting.

Also, come to think of it, his post in Africa on 01/25/14 seem oddly phrased for a guy who claims to be a PH. Or, maybe I'm reading it wrong.

I'm confused by what the OP expected from a high fence hunt. Since it was never sold as being a fair chase hunt, why the confusion and disappointment?

Heck, I know a guy who has a big hunting lodge that is filled with trophies, some bought via eBay and some bought via guided/outfitted hunts. He belongs to a couple of exclusive hunting club and has hunted all over the World. He loves to travel and kill animals that will look good on his walls, but he has little interest in hunting, at least in the form that most people in the U.S. and Canada know it, and he certainly isn't a shooter or gun nut. What he is, is a guy with a lot of discretionary income and time that he likes to spend collecting antlers, hides, and horns to fill his walls. He doesn't need to spend time getting his body into physical shape or practicing with any of his four rifles when he can just write a cheque and get on with whatever is next of his "to do" list.

Amazing how this type of hunting floats so many guys boats.

Which ones?

Amazing how people believe everything they read on the internet and fit it to their narrative and a ready fire aim approach to commenting without reading through the whole thread.

#2

Sure does. As to his level of interest in what's said here, he's been on as recently as 10-14. So it appears that he has some interest in what's being said, but no interest in responding.

Steelhead once said that "guys here would argue over the blessing...!"

He was right.

YOU CAN NOT MASS PRODUCE GOOD HUNTING

However you can give some folks the illusion of it - which is what the majority of New Zealand elk "hunting" outfits do.

Was anyone driving an Avalanche?

that was 10 years ago. At the time, Sen. Jim Risch was governor of ID. Rammel wasn't having much luck capturing his escaped elk so Risch issued a carte blanche on any eartagged elk. They could be shot on sight, no tag needed. Rammel threatened to sue any hunter who shot one. Even though it was legal, no one wanted the expense of defending himself in court. CWD wasn't the issue, though. They didn't want the farm elk genes diluting the wild elk.

I never heard if Rammel ever captured them all. Tame elk can get wild very fast if pushed. Rammel later ran for governor to get even but was soundly thrashed in the primaries.

These types of shoots are really pure laziness with a dash of ego stroking IMO.

Mule deer, at CSU.

Yep. Deer in a pen that was previously used to hold sheep with scabies, I believe.

The deer then passed it on to wild deer, and it continues to spread.

I a m always stunned that folks don't sort out a hunt before they have sorted what is to come. A dumbazz is a dumbpazz every time.

That one caught me with my guard down....didn't see it coming. lol...

Spot on.

Scrapie is what the sheep had. The theory is, it mutated to CWD.

As far as any Avalanche sightings, there were none reported. But there were scattered reports of ass-shooting, and a seminar on annuities for the elderly so who knows?

Uber annuities!

VG,

I value a lot of what you say on the Fire, but you are off base when you spout off about high fence operations not being sporting.

Perhaps the confusion on high fence operations is that there are so many different types for so many different species on many different sizes of operations.

I primarily hunt deer and antelope at home here in Alberta. In 2014, I was fortunate enough to hunt a number of different plains game in the Eastern Cape of South Africa. Most of the properties are game fenced. The wildlife belong to the property owners. Not only are they trying to keep their stock at home, they also want to maintain their range conditions by having a known quantity of game units on their range. The fences also help keep the local poachers out. I found that most farms/ranches that we went to fail to keep a totally secure game fence. Found a number of holes. The scale of the properties were quite large. After crossing a fence line to access a property, a fence NEVER! played a role in preventing the game I pursued from escaping. I am VERY! comfortable that the hunting was fairchase, it was just different from North America. In 2015 I hunted hogs in Florida on a night time hunt. There were fences, but nothing I considered as effectively pig proof. Another Hunter went there based on my hunt report and claims the pigs were in small pastures. I don't know, it was night time in the Florida swamps. We were using Starlight scopes. I come from a farming background and I was comfortable that the pigs were not confined.

Now coming from Montana, you probably have hunted antelope. I have seen more panicked antelope restricted from escape by four and five strand cattle fencing, than I did see plains game in Africa or hogs in Florida. As you know, antelope seldom will jump a fence, but they will crawl under where they are able to. I have seen hunters push antelope along fence lines to shooters posted near crossing points. Tell me which is more sporting!? Which is fair chase? Not a lot of difference in my opinion.

I think that North Americans need to get off their high horse about high fences. You may or may not choose to hunt a high fence operation, that is your option, but to exclude a legal form of hunting, is foolhardy. The antis are out to shut hunting down. Hunters need to stick together and not fracture over bow/rifle/hound/bait lines.

Just to finish off, since I saw my first add for this ranch, it was apparent to me it was a high fence, put and take operation. How the OP was confused, I'm not sure. Now if there is any semblance of veracity to his report, the operation is despicable. I have followed Jorge1, Hatari, and Pugs since I have been on the Fire. Some are ex military officers. I have a high degree of respect for them, and do not doubt their report. The question is, how can the OP's experience be so vastly different?

Very true - but I am not sure all our preaching about hunting being good for wildlife in general will hold up for long if we are talking about captive raised animals, no matter how large a pasture they are turned loose in.

The antis don't care about anything except shutting down hunting. They don't need us to be fracture to raise cane. They don't see any difference in pen raised or open prairie animals. They are irrational.

Ringman,

Phil has it right - one can not mass produce good hunting.

Sportsman should NOT defend things that draw thier ethics into question, when they do our entire value system becomes questionable.

Principles are not a vote, they are what we stand for...
Unlike candidates you can pick your principles...
don't confuse the two.

When I introduce people to the sport, "sportsmanship" is the most important thing they learn.

Regards,
Spot

You just don't get it. The antis don't care about any of your "ethics" or your friend's "ethics". They want to stop you and then take away your guns.

Ringman, I said it before and I'll say it again--its not the anti's we need to worry about, it's everybody else. If you don't believe that, ask me why we can't hunt bears in the spring in CO any more.

The problem is "ethics" mean a lot of different things to different people.

To some, shooting deer over a feeder is not "ethical", shooting a bear over bait, running hounds.

A lot of traditional archers look down on compound bows and God forbid crossbows.

How many times has the argument been made here that long range hunting is not "ethical"?

Not defending high fenced hunts at all, but where do you draw the line on forcing your "ethics" on other people?

Not directed at anyone particular.

The anti's mean nothing--they are a tiny, tiny segment of people. Sport hunting is ENTIRELY dependent on the acceptance of non-hunters--they are the majority and the people who determine the future of sport hunting. You have to be able to distinguish between non hunters and anti hunters. And non hunters perception of sport hunting's ethics are indeed extremely important.

Casey

Speaking of "don't get it", you have to be the poster child of that clan. Comparing "antis" and Bushnell scopes has left you uncredible and this is "UN" not "IN" credible.

HitnRun,

Maybe you could be so kind as to tell me which hunters the antis respect.

As far as the upper end Bushnells, I realize you have not compared a lot of stuff side by side outside a store so your opinion really is irrelevant to those of us who have.

The antis are currently driving the bus. They are better at social media than hunters. They are winning the war. Look at Cecil.

I agree that we need to be concerned about the undecided or no current opinion, but our messaging is not resonating with them. The antis are doing a better job of messaging and fundraising. We need to do better.

People (non-hunters) are surprised when I tell them we hunt elk on foot pack them out of public land on our backs or with a rented horse and do all the butchering ourselves. The fact that we eat elk instead of factory farm raised beef is appealing to younger people who like the idea of wild and organic. The amount of work and uncertain outcome isn't necessarily how they perceive hunting based on TV and news exposure.

The idea of lazy hunters with big checkbooks on ATV's shooting planted animals to stick a big head on a wall isn't just unpopular with the ethical hunting crowd. It diminishes our reputation with the general public and frankly isn't that good a choice vs. any number of guided hunting opportunities without farm raised game involved.

Not having the time to take 10 days or a week to hunt might mean you don't succeed on several hunts making success all the more enjoyable when it happens.

Might not be a fair analogy and I'm way out of date but to me it seems like a young single guy choosing to pay a prostitute rather than working to win the attention of a woman who might say no until she actually knows and likes him.

This!^^

Ringman: You are correct--antis don't respect hunters and they want to put an end to hunting.


So what?

A most excellent post, it would be perfect and germane to the discussion, but with enough "poison pills" of inaccuracies and emotion, detracting from it's message.

Ethics are a lot like the SCOTUS definition of pornography as in "you'll know it when you see it", not to mention the very word "ethics" is I think often-times transposed with personal preferences.

As SLM astutely pointed out, to the stick and string bowhunter, those who used the compound or scope rifle are frowned upon (notice I did not say ethical). I would take the other view in that hunting with said bow and arrow significantly increases the chances to would and lose and animal, so personally I would not do it. Same for you "turret turning" long range aficionados, not to mention running down and treeing a cougar of a bear, then unceremoniously knocking him down from it's helpless perch. Same goes for varmint calls on coyotes or wolves.

As to the lazy/fat checkbook comment, it wreaks of another of the seven deadly sins, suffice to say I am not lazy nor is my checkbook that fat, but I am fortunate to be able to PAY for HUNTS given my limited time. As to the head on the wall comment, well there again it just paints all hunters who put a head on a wall in an unfair light. I will confess however, coming home empty handed SUCKS.

Lastly, I really enjoyed the prostitute analogy and one I can comment on . Like all hunting, I've done both, from hunting bear alone in the Maine wilderness, to deer and hogs here in the south, to the ultimate wilderness of Africa (with a PH of course) and on the female chase side, culminating in courting and marrying my lovely wife of 34 years.

But, I would not be honest to say , those of you that have not been to such paradises like Olongapo in the "PI" or Patya Beach in Thailand, let's just say you have no idea....

You're killing me Jorge, just killing me here......

But as a couple naval aviator officers around here like to say...

"Carry On".


Casey

Why so sensitive?
Everyone that posts about livestock hunts gets ribbed, no matter the size of the pasture.

And being long time 'fire members, I would have bet money Pugs and Jorge would have known that.......

Casey

You have spent too much time in a monastery to really understand the real world. Worrying about "antis" gets you nothing but indigestion. Trying to convince anyone that is emotionally motivated with rational reasoning is as worthwhile as your Bushnell narrative.

+1. As someone willing to post unabashed opinions on turret turners and bowhunters, you should appreciate others' opinions on canned hunts.

Some hunters agree with Jorge's bow hunter and long rang shooter examples.
Most everyone agrees canned hunts are not ethical. Thus includes Pope and Young, Boone and Crockett, etc.

And FWIW some of my most memorable hunts were ones where I came home empty handed.

You can say they were some of your most memorable hunts, but as far as hunting you failed if you were hunting with a legal tag. In psychology it might even be called "rationalizing".

Plain and simple (yes this is a little tongue in cheek)

Some guys are all about the trophy, trophy car, trophy gun, trophy racks, and trophy wives.

Other guys are about becoming a skilled and responsible outdoorsman.

Now you can be both - but that's a fine line... and one typically wins out over the other.

I'm not a psychologist, however I think I distinction must be drawn seperating harvesting an animal and the hunt. Two seperate things.

You got me...on both counts... I'm very coordinated when it comes to walking (or flying)fine lines. In my old line of work it was sort of a job requirement for staying alive. Some, no many of you posited some very valid positions and then again some have not.

In the end, I'll stick to my SCOTUS and prostitute analogies, and of course my OWN personal opinion hunting by running down an animal with dogs until he is so exhausted he can't go on then blasting him out of a tree is not my view of hunting and of course, even worse are the 800 yard shooters. I am not saying it's unethical by any means, just not my idea of a hunt and to the usual suspects... DILIGAF? (rhetorical question).

Again, your rationale continues to make you less and less credible. Stick with your Sunday sermons and work at the shelter.

Good grief.........

Been on two bear hunts using dogs,there's more to it than that. Loved hearing the dogs chasing the bear,trying to determine which dog you are hearing,how far it is,which direction it's heading,is it a treed bark or still chasing bark. Then there was the "All American." An "All American" is when the scent is so hot/fresh all the dogs open up!
Maybe hard to believe,but one bear out distanced the dogs,we called him "The Runner" and according to the guide,that bear knew what was going on and beat feet out of there.

But,to each their own.

Now you are truly into rationalizing.

I know a few guides that have worked there.

I dont really want to get into it much, I was doing a good job avoiding it, but a few words then I'll remove myself.

The OP is pretty much correct, tho it seems odd that such a traveled hunter would somehow be surprised how these things are ran is a bit odd..

Main goal is to make guys feel like its a hunt,wear them out a little and then attempt the up-sell on a bigger bull,that (usually) somehow just appears..

Guides need to be really good at scoring on the hoof, or I guess they could just look at the number/color of the ear tag..the ear tag that the guides remove before the hunter ever gets to the bull.If the guide lets a client get to the bull before or even at the same time, frankly they screwed up as they have to "prep" it a bit beforehand.

Do you really think it would take more than an hour, via ATV to go out and kill a bull there? no it wouldnt, its a dog and pony show.

You really dont hunt that much do you? You just want to act like it....

Exactly! BTW, used to be a partner in a hunting outfit in Maine called Bowlin camps. Mainly bear, but moose and deer as well. Well aware of the dog thing and witnessed it many times and I personally did not care for it, but others like it and that's fine by me.

PS: tTo the other poster, there were NO tags on these elk for chrissake!

As someone else already said, coming home empty-handed is part of hunting. It makes success worthwhile.

I like my analogy best. The kid who gets a trophy for just showing up really has no reason to take pride in it.

Bear hunting with dogs isn't any less of a challenge than shooting them over donuts.

The best hunt I ever had was one in which my brother, dad and myself hunted antelope,deer and elk in MT. We all tagged out on antelope but not on deer or elk. It was a success because we got my dad a lope on his last hunt ever and it was some doing given his severe physical restrictions. I will never forget it.
DYI public land BTW.

Everything I know about the place is a guess..

Ok, wasnt going to pick on you anymore Jorge (or Pugs who is apparently staying out of it at this point ) , but I'll run through this one more time.

Of course there is no tag involved. Private owned elk, on privately owned land--like it is in most western states--is regulated by Idaho Dept of Agriculture. That should tell you something right there.

OF COURSE the guide isn't going to take you over to the 8ft high, woven wire fence, and tell you, "this is how we keep the elk in so you can shoot them".

OF COURSE, the management isn't going to take you to the elk facilities and show you "this is where the elk are bred", "this is where the elk are born", "this is the squeeze chute where we inject antibiotics into these(very) valuable elk because they are quite susceptible to disease when kept together year 'round", and "this is where we open the gate shortly before the hunters arrive and slap 'em in the butt and say sayonara little buddies it was good knowing ya'".

Now, about fine lines and matter of degrees: When it comes to high fence hunting it ain't close--it's in a different solar system.

There is no legitimate sport hunting organization I'm aware of that considers high fence hunting ethical. When Broadmouth's website declares a "517 point World Record Elk", that's an absolute lie.

And the rest of their well written website (I swear, it could be canonized) says things like "fair chase feeling" and "preserve", it is written for the uninitiated and/or to assist in any rationalization.

I have my criticisms of compound bows in regular archery seasons, of long range hunting, annd I can even (barely) understand some hunters and nonhunters distaste for hound hunting and baiting for bears--but unlike Broadmouth's 100% "chance" of success, all the above mentioned are far from a sure bet. The aforementioned are a matter of degree, 100% "chance" is not.

So, as far as flying the fine line is concerned, you were subject to review by your superiors and your peers every minute you were in the cockpit. And I really doubt you were not ever critiqued and criticized for your some of your choices while in the cockpit.

So sailor, all I can say is welcome to the Campfire Debriefing and Review Board.



Casey

Same here. Those hunts were also some of the most humbling.

I believe Safari Club recognizes livestock

shot at high fence facilities.

I was afraid of that. I knew they were having that discussion at some point in time, must've been wishful thinking on my part that they decided otherwise.

Casey

They call them "estate" trophies.

Well, being that I got to the elk before the guide, I'd chalk that up to the bullshit column.tg

Nope, wrong again. At least not for lion that I can vouch for. But , I really don't care, as I'm not into the tape thing

In regards to eartags. I worked on a preserve that my father owned while in high school. We tried to always remove the tags if at all possible upon release.

If that's directed at me, don't know what you're referring to.


Casey

Check for lip tatoos.

I am an admitted high fence bigot, paying for a guide or access is drastically different than a high fence put and take elk hunt. I've hunted pigs on a pay access ranch, Tejon, but it was 200,000 + acres and doesn't have a high fence. Since they have elk there that they charge up to $25K for i would guess the cowboys keep a close eye on them but can't keep them in if they really want to leave. The pig hunt had no guarantees and no captive breeding program that I'm aware of, although the mtn lion killing the ranch did years ago must have helped the numbers of pigs.

Back to analogies that Trump can't use anymore, dating the rich girl and buying expensive French or maybe Thai meals isn't the same as paying the lady of the evening .........that chance of failure is still very real no matter what dinner costs.

Paying outfitters and for taxidermy is fine with me, the wife of almost 30 years lets me hang a couple of elk and a pheasant in the front room and wants to go on safari one of these days.

Paying to hunt at a yellow tag in the ear high fence facility does seem a lot like a romantic transaction in a back alley to me.

I am simply looking on with slight amusement as useful discussion is had knowing that anything I write is unlikely to change anyone's mind.

In my opinion the world of hunting is a big place with room for all sorts but if I'm not mistaken some on this thread deriding our hunt were the same folks making fun of Paddler for his stand that grouse are only shot over a pointer (on Tuesday with a side by side 28 gauge but it must have double triggers and the pointer has to be a GSP or you're just a slob)

When we wrote up the story we were accurate with what we experienced. Clearly, others had other experiences and just as clearly some were offended by our great time.

For what it's worth I worked harder for this elk than I did for my Newfoundland Moose two years ago but Newfoundland is an island of 42,031 sq mi so I suppose it was a "high fence" too. Guess it just depends where one draws the line and that to me is a personal line.

For crying out loud - you never cease to amaze.
Refresh our memories - what was your nickname in HS?

no sir, not at you, just one of the others

Ergo my comment MABY posts ago. If any one of us here on this forum were to announce we walk on water, the usual suspects would chime in saying "yeah, that's because you can't swim.". Fouc them

.. or maybe he simply enjoyed the hunt.

Want to go again. I had fun!

That is a different subject. Don't tell me an enjoyable hunt is the same as a successful hunt. I enjoy every hunt I go on. But many are unsuccessful. Otherwise I would not go out hunting again.

A big negative on that RM......big negative.

I've hunted my butt off for 9 days chasing big mule deer, and didn't kill anything. Those hunts are hardly failures in my book, but you often live in a different world than I do.

Spot on...anyone who signs up for a guided high fence should be out for a party, a wall decoration for whatever.

No doubt there are two different groups of "hunters" in this conversation.

I will be hunting public land in SW MT on Sat. I expect to see a bunch of hunters ,,some elk,,lots of out of staters.

But I will be hunting elk ,,,not [bleep] around.. and I have a good chance to kill a bull...whatever bull

The only more in inconsistent person than you is running for president on the Democratic ticket. They should name a waffle for you at IHOP!

Then you're doing it wrong. Are you, per chance, related to fireball? Or perhaps drink from the same well water?

IME moose are pretty easy to hunt. The fact your guide ran you all over heck doesn't mean it's not a canned hunt.

I see.
So when it is you it is 'unsuccessful' when it is BWalker it is 'failed'.
That might be even be called "rationalizing".

If the objective was to get away from everyday life and have fun using the hunt as an excuse, I agree. If you take 9 days off to go hunt and don't kill something, it is a failure.

You're now twice as wrong as you were in the first place.

Words mean things. I guess you your objective while hunting is no to take a game animal. Mine is. Whether I get something or not I still enjoy the hunt, but I'm not silly enough to claim the hunt was successful.

Who is doing the hunting is irrelevant. When the objective is to kill something and you don' you failed or were unsuccessful. In this case the words are synonyms.

You're an idiot

I still think it's funny that some posters are saying other posters are crapping on some of the shooters that bought livestock at this place. Again this is a separate thread from the other thread. I haven't read the other thread so idk if anyone is crapping on that thread or not. But if the shooters want to come on this thread and defend the place then that's on them.

As for not being able to get closer then 300 yards without them running off, the cattle where I hunt are the same. They start running and spook the deer. It really pisses me off. But I'm not ignorant enough to call those cattle anything besides livestock just because they spook.

It's a shame how many people think a high fence shoot is the same as a hunt where the animals are wild. Glad I got to take my boy out this last weekend on an elk hunt where they are truly wild. I pray that he never feels that a high fence shoot is the same as a truly free range hunt.

My wife and I spent the first week of October with good friends on the Eastern plains of Colorado. Breaking bread and tossing down a beer or two we shared storing from the past and made plans for our future.

Yes.... chasing anyelope and shooting prairie dogs also happened that week and....

Antelope died
Prairie dogs died

But the measure of success is never in the animal talley or the total of any score sheet.

I'm glad I don't share a camp with someone who thinks a trip is not a success unless a tag is "filled"

Head trauma. It's real.

.

Jorge, There are a lot of ways to have fun in Thailand, but of the women in your life, which one are you the most proud of, The ones you paid for, or the one you earned?

Ringman is a known dumbphuck of the 'fire, whether it be using his rifle scope as a spotter or burning out a barrel trying to conduct a ladder test.

Powder River gates make great rifle rests.

I'll not "objectify" the wife for obvious reasons, but as far as "pride" goes, not an emotion I associate with chicks, but I must confess the chicks in Olongapo and Thailand were a lot more fun with none of the hassles...

Thanks for your input, I'm sure you're a first class DIY/Public land Jeremiah Johnson, I'm just not that talented. BTW, the cattle where we hunted err sorry "shot" did not spook when we went by them. Guess they're smarter than the cattle over where you "hunt".

Nope just an average hunter. Not a shooter. I actually don't even kill that many animals. But when I do they are actually wild. Not pen raised. Glad you are proud of being able to sneak into 300 yards on a farm bull. I bet it took a lot of skill.

I just did a hunt I think most of your group could handle. It took me 2 days of actual hunting to fill my tag. And my 8 year old boy tagged along the entire time. So physically I think you guys have a chance. Now these aren't pen raised and are actually wild. So you will still probably need a guide. And your not buying antlers to place on the wall. But you do get meat from the cow and it's an actual hunt. Not a shoot. If you want info on it just PM me.

Regards, Branden.

I was the one who said that the OP was crapping on Jorge's posts about his trip. Crapping on the posts, not "the shooters."

And I'll say it again, making a post like the OP and then disappearing is chickensh^^.

If jorge hadn't posted about it, the OP never would have chimed in, so yes, he was crapping on jorge's posts.

Whether you agree or disagree with the OP's opinions on canned hunts is an entirely different matter.

jorge, isn't it a little disingenuous to say that you don't have time for a wilderness elk hunt out west when you've made the trip overseas to hunt Africa?

No sir, I was active duty back then and had LOTS of leave. Nowadays being a working stiff, I only get two weeks (ten days).

Actually it was 330, but what's 30 yards among friends. I glad you enjoyed your cow hunt with your son. I always have when I used to take my son when he was that age. So glad you shot your cow.

My apologies.

No need sir.

WOW
I can't decide which is more pathetic, complaining about a 100% success CANNED hunt or bragging about it.

For some one with your rank and expiereance such little time off is a joke.
I have nearly five weeks and will have nearly six after next year and I have only been with my employer for 6 years.

Well, it is what it is. As a contractor, when firms change and I stay, the clock starts over.

That is a fair & honest answer to a loaded question. All of us who hunt for sport do it for personal reasons and, like all other ethical choices, there is no delineating line between right and wrong.

At least its consistent, you read a post and think, that [bleep] couldn't post something stupider than that, but the next day you read another post, and viola, the bar got lowered..=

If you want to go shoot a farm raised elk behind a fence, knock yourself out. Just don't call it hunting, its not..

Hey Phil. Thanks for your always honest positions. I think I've said everything I'm going to say here, but I will leave you with this. Myself and my friends knew exactly what this was going to be and were up front about it. One can call me lazy, a shooter, whatever anybody wants, we didn't hide or pretend anything, and without reservation there isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind we did anything unethical or illegal.

Same goes for *MY* opinions on folks who hunt with bows, or casually pick off an elk from eight hundred yards, or tree an exhausted and terrified cat or bear into a tree to shoot them. Just an opinion and like rectal orifices, we all have one..

Cheers,
J

Jorge, You are correct that hunting ethics are usually pretty fluid and situational for most folks.
A few years ago after my daughter left her Antarctica job she spent some time in New Zealand hunting on her own. Growing up the way she did she had opinions on what constituted "real" hunting. She was eventually offered a chance to shoot stags from a helicopter for a meat operation and was a bit hesitant at first but thought what the hell, might as well try it first. She says it wasn't hunting as she knew it but it sure as hell was fun !
Then she got a chance to work for one of the top guides in NZ and saw how put and take "hunting" worked as well.
She wrote a pretty good article about it, comparing the two with no real bias and sent it to SCI. They accepted it at first, but that was when a few of the higher-ups started getting bad press about their proclaimed ethics and they decided not to run it.

Not so, buddy.

I respect you, so I feel compelled to respond. I completely agree shooting from a helicopter is not for me, not even for hogs and the bloom fell of the rose with SCI a long time ago, so we have some common ground. That said, I stand with my previous post to you.

I respect you to, but I don't get the "not so" .

Even if the critter had tested positive for CWD, you could have - if you chose to do so - kept the meat. CWD has not been shown to be transmissible to humans, and the prions are not generally present in the meat, only the central nervous system and certain bodily secretions of the animal.

The problem with CWD is that it's a prion disease. Once it's somewhere, it's essentially there for good. They don't break down, they cannot be mitigated or destroyed (not even an autoclave will do it), and they are persistent, virulent pathogens.

Like it or not, the animal husbandry practices around deer and elk ranching (whether for meat, "trophy breeding", or for shooting operations, as well as those kept for the scent lure industry) are the prime sources of outbreaks and transmission. This is a subject and a problem that sportsmen are going to have to face and should face.

All i can tell you is what I was told.

Jorge, the respect goes both ways - and the helicopter shooting my daughter did in New Zealand was not even promoted as "hunting", it was simply a commercial and legal way to collect meat. Much as shooting captive animals behind wire, except the animals had been free range for generations . Both Fun and legal, but can it be called hunting ?

She claims that stalking this, on foot, from the bottom was more to her liking

I live and hunt on the edge of the Bob Marshall Wilderness, so it's safe to say I won't be chasing penned elk this fall

Is that an actual stated, published view by those orgs?

Yes. B&C and P&Y don't allow entries of animals taken in husbandry operations or from inside high fence areas regardless of size determining such to not be within the definition of "fair chase"

SCI, different story.

My original quote failed to include the "unethical" portion. I'm aware high-fence critters are not included.

Do they publish the view of being unethical or simply only including fair chase?

Nevermind. Answered my own question.

http://www.boone-crockett.org/huntingEthics/ethics_cannedshoot.asp?area=huntingEthics
FWIW.

I couldn't care any less what someone else does.

I know more than a few guys that would have never killed anything if they didn't pay for it. It works for them. I'm sure there are more than a few guys around that would never get laid if they didn't pay for it either.

That is me......been paying the same woman over 31 years.......and she also would probably lay claim to half all my assets.

Guessing they ain't too popular in Texas.

201 -

I just now read your OP. I don't know how I missed this for a month ? ?
Anywho.

Thank you for spilling the beans. How else would we know w/ o getting screwed ourselves. THNX

I've never had the privilege to HUNT Elk...I would NOT participate under the circumstances you describe. As you said, " it's not hunting ", I totally agree. I would NOT participate for book Deer, Elk, Bison, etc. under those circumstances either.

Having not read past the OP I don't know what any others have said and I'm not parroting anyone.

This situation is sickening. How can it be stopped ? How can it be made ILLEGAL? I'm really at a loss for words.

You have my highest respect and let me say KUDOS to you.

Jerry

Just curious, what part of it would you make illegal, and why?

I don't mean to be critical but I'm surprised you asked.

Elk, Deer, Bison, Sheep, et.al. are 'game animals'. I suppose I view them as the American Indians do.

Where is FAIR CHASE in that scenario ??

From 201's post, it was merely an animal 'DRIVE', similar to a cattle drive to market.

IMO, game animals deserve "Fair Chase" and AFAIC marketing, selling,etc. should be illegal.

I could go into more detail and even rant but I hope I've described my opinion, feelings & attitude sufficiently.


Jerry

Jerry, I have my own opinions, I'm just curious about the foundation for yours. Because I'm pretty sure that with any critical examination, the foundation will unravel fairly quickly.


So, again the question, which part would you make illegal?

The "driving" part? Would you outlaw deer drives too?

The "fair chase" part? Lot's of people consider high fence hunts to be outside the realm of fair chase. So would you outlaw all high fence operations?

The elk farming/selling part? If you'd make elk farming illegal, on what basis, because they're game animals? Because you like to think of them as American Indians do, whatever that means? American Indians did lots of hunts we wouldn't consider fair chase, keep that in mind.

All kinds of game animals and game fish are farmed. Salmon and pheasants and chukars and deer to name a few. It's how restaurants in the US are able to serve game meat.

Would you make raising gamebirds like pheasants illegal?

If you'd make raising elk illegal, on what basis? If I own land and raise cows for meat, why should you be able to tell me I can't also raise elk for meat?

Or, charge someone $10k for the privilege of shooting a bull, if I choose to?

jwall,



Indians used to drive entire herds off cliff to salvage a few. Is that what you would do?



Deserve? That's a tree hugger's word. Are you into that?

Ringman NO to both ?s

I didn't expect to be misunderstood.

I can't go into detail NOW and I hope there is no need.

Jerry

Smokey, I'll get to your ?? later

You weren't misunderstood. You said that what 201k described in his post should be illegal.

I just asked what part should be illegal, and why.

That's great.

I saved my pennies and went to NZ last year and killed a stag and a tahr. I had one day left, and decided to do a chamois hunt. Due to time constraints, I went for the helo hunt. At first when we were chasing them around the mountain I was thinking "this isn't for me" but decided to go for it anyhow, because it is a New Zealand thing...

Anyhow after spotting a good ram, I was dropped off and the pilot chased it towards me. I quickly learned that making a responsible shot at a chamois bouncing along on cliff faces was MUCH harder than it seems to be. I led him a bit too much and/or he turned just as I touched off a shot, taking the back of his head off.

Well, they decided to let me also shoot a ewe so I could have a serviceable cape. This time, I shot directly from a hovering helo with a scoped rifle. Again, this was MUCH harder than one would think, due to the vibrations and other distractions. I really bore down and made a great 80 or so yard shot. It was a great "shoot", if one wants to call it that, that was seriously one of my more proud achievements, once I had time to think about it.

My chamois is now mounted (ram's horns/ewe cape) on my wall and I am just as proud of the whole situation as my DIY Montana wilderness wolf, and some of the DIY elk and mule deer I have taken over the years.

If I can ever afford to go back to NZ, I wouldn't mind stalking a chamois that I spotted from the bottom (like I did with my tahr) so I can say I have done it both ways. Both techniques have their challenges, as I found out.

OK, deep breath, You ask a LOT of ??? fairly.

Let me lay a basis first please. I DON'T consider myself superior, nor others inferior. IF any of you spent time w/me hunting or not, you would not think I'm a snob. I'm not and I don't act and/or think that way.

#2.In general I'm opposed to hunting SMALL acreage HI fence hunting of captive deer-elk-bison etc.

If someone has LARGE acreage inside Hi fence where animals are free to do their thing, that's one thing. Specifically I'd describe myself opposed to CALLING a game 'shoot' hunting

# 1. I addressed my opinion ON the description given in the OP. That seemed TO ME a whole lot different from what we commonly consider deer drives. Limiting the 'shooter' to THE bull KNOWN for rack measurements etc. I've never observed nor participated in a deer drive "LIKE" what was described.

Also per #2. I'm opposed to CALLING it 'hunting' when/where the animals cannot avoid the 'shooter'

#3. I understand farming, cattle, bison, pheasant, fish etc.
I don't call it fishing in a "barrel". NO I wouldn't make farming illegal---just don't call it Fair Chase Hunting.

#4. IF we, like the American Indians, depended upon wild game for for subsistence w/o modern firearms, Binos, LRFs, 4 wheelers, 4X4 vehicles etc. etc.
---I/we would do what we HAD to do to survive.
---Hunting today normally is NOT subsistence hunting.

#5. I feel I covered with #3.

#6. You/anyone can legally farm/sell/butcher anything, just don't call it 'HUNTING' and especially FAIR CHASE. IMO

#7. I like how you described "the privilege of shooting", no, not illegal but it's NOT necessarily hunting.
------------------------------------------------------------

Part of this comes under 'semantics'-- how we describe/understand wording.

Part of this has to do with how we were raised and what we consider "ethical".

I've done my best to accurately answer your ??? and I didn't mind. However I'm not going to spend time debating the minute details others might have.

Jerry

Jerry, with all due respect, it's not semantics.

You said it should be outlawed, which has a very specific meaning. Either it's legal, or it's illegal, there are no gray areas.

Now I see that you've backed off of that and are saying it's not fair chase, and not what you consider to be "hunting."

I agree with both of those, 100%.

I just don't think it should be illegal. The only part of it that should be illegal IMO, is not keeping up the fences and not exercising enough care to make sure that no potentially-diseased (CWD) animals escape. Because that can affect a lot more than just the participants.

As I've said before, elk farming is agriculture with some of the entertainment industry thrown in. It's no different than raising beef other than how they're killed. If a farmer can find someone who will pay thousands to shoot his elk, more power to him.
Farmed elk are selectively bred for antler size, just like beef is bred for bigger meat cuts. There's no difference.
Nomenclature, like 'hunting' or 'butchering' is irrelevant to the industry. It's still farming.

The fact that elk ranching is an agricultural endeavor brings up another point that should concern all hunters. The SPCA has managed to get all kinds of rules enacted regulating how farm animals are killed. I've wondered why they haven't gone after high fence operations claiming that slaughter methods should be the same as those used in slaughter houses. If they could succeed in doing that, they'd be much farther along in getting real hunting stopped for the same reason.

While elk farming is agriculture, it's better for all of us if we keep calling it hunting, high fence or not. The more leverage we have against animal rights groups, the better.

If the anti's "finish off" hunting it won't be because of places like Broadmouth Canyon. All hunters could still nowadays be hunting game exclusively with spears, or traditional bows and arrows, and the anti's would still be doing everything they could to get it outlawed.

I don't give a rats a$$ what the anti's think. About anything.

Three buddies who post on this website got together and spent some time in some pretty country, ate some good food, drank some good bourbon, and likely smoked some good cigars, and they shot some good animals that made them happy and filled their freezers with some good venison.

Some people don't think other folks should be able to buy soda pop in 44 ounce Super Big Gulps either.


lol

Smokey, I said "part of it" is/was/could be semantics NOT all.

In the context of the described OP, it borders on what I 'feel' is 'unethical'. Unethical will vary among people. And I don't feel "how that hunt- WAS DESCRIBED -" should be legal.

I'm used to 'legal' being applied, in the 4 States I've hunted, to FAIR CHASE. No I didn't "back off', just trying to be more specific (semantics).

Let me re state that: I'm used to legal = fair chase.

I totally agree w/your last paragraph. Maintenance and proper health care of whatever herd, flock, school the animal happens to be should be guarded.


ALSO, I've read a few pages past the OP now AND I may have been deceived (??), don't know yet and I'm not thru with that subject.

What's the old saying...
"Fool me once, shame on you...
Fool me twice, shame on ME.

Again Smokey, I'm only trying to be specific. I am afraid of what I WILL determine about the OP.

Jerry

hatari - IF you are still on this thread....

Thanks for this post. I'm just now reading P 4 and I'm in FULL quandary. I wish I had read past the OP before my reply.

Jerry

OK then, what about the OP should be made illegal, and why?

That was and is my only question for you.

If you want to say it has to be "fair chase" to be legal, there are all kinds of problems with that.

Like outlawing all of the high fence operations in Texas. B&C and P&Y don't consider hunting behind a high fence "fair chase." So all of that has to go.

Or baiting bears. Or chasing deer with hounds. Or planting farm-raised pheasants in a field for a couple of guys to shoot on a Sunday afternoon.

All of it has to be outlawed, right?


Not to mention as Rockchuck pointed out, it's agriculture and animal husbandry, not hunting.

Baiting bears is still considered fair chase last time I looked.

Yep, you are correct.

Depends WHERE you hunt bear. Baiting bear is ILLEGAL in Ark. except on private property.

Jerry

Well, it seems to me there are MANY ?s raised by you.

I've answered as specifically I can.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Your Friend
Jerry

no f u c k i n g s h i t Sherlock...

[quote=jorgeI][quote=jwall]

no f u c k i n g s h i t Sherlock...
[quote]

Hold your horse there Jorge. I ain't done yet.

Also I haven't been critical of you, your hunt, or hunting party ONE TIME.
I haven't equated YOUR hunt to 201's "descriptions" in the least.
I give 'everyone' full face value including you.

It APPEARS that I might have made a mistake but the jury is still out.
Hatari said above that no one doubted the OP 's story.....

If I have made a mistake I am man enough to stand up and admit it.

You have jumped to a conclusion.

I consider myself your friend as well. I've read more of your post than WE have talked to each other but we have.

Give me a little slack.

Jerry

There are several high fence elk shooting ranches here in eastern Idaho. I always assumed the customers of such establishments know what they are getting when they book a shoot.

They raise many of them in a few different fields not too far from my house. You can go watch them through the fence. They load a few at a time in trailers and haul them up to the ranch as they need them. The guides usually know the elk pretty well because they helped haul them from the pasture to the ranch. I'm not judging, just saying how it is.

Bb

That is absolutely disgusting!

You made me puke!

No kidding. I stopped reading as soon as I got the high fence part. Like I give a crap what someones "hunting" experience was like in a pen. Call it shooting, harvesting, whatever, but don't complain it wasn't real hunting.

If you want help puking, I got plenty of a foul tasting mule deer in the freezer.

did you get back out for the WY rifle hunt?

Some gorgeous country out where you were hunting


Im with antlers on this one

No animals were left to waste, good ethical shooting, great meat to bring home and money brought into local economy( jobs) please time spent outside with friends

Jerry: My only comment was addressing the fact, by your own admission that you jumped to conclusions. Hopefully, you've read the other thread, but I really grow weary of the "hunting purists" (if there is such a thing and there isn't), who inject their own "morality" into a bona-fide operation where WE were quite up front about it. I do quite a bit of hunting on my own here in the SE, WHEN TIME PERMITS and more often than not, come home empty handed. I'll not beat the dead horse again of describing my HUNT, and also my views on the OP, but to me IT WAS, and frankly, IDGAF what the "purists" say.

Truth be told, the only reason for the outrage expressed about this hunt is that none of the guys yelling and screaming have ever killed an elk as good as the ones these boys took on this trip, and they have never had a hunt where they enjoyed themselves as much as these guys did. Apparently butthurt coupled with a dose of envy really makes some guys miserable.

jorgeI
I agree with you and I promise NONE of my post was regarding YOUR hunt.

IF, IF- the OP is a truthful report, I still feel repelled by how IT was carried out. I truly feel that way about hunting ANY game, whether in Co. Wyo. Montana, ARKANSAS or elsewhere.

I meant NO offense toward any other hunters OR hunts. I also DON'T sit on a Hi Horse and look down my nose at others. I object to calling 'what was described' as hunting. I would NOT participate in ANY hunt here at home that was carried out--like that was described. I haven't had time to finish this thread, but I WILL.

I hope you understand exactly what I've said now. There is/was no offense intended at all.

One other thing, I will NOT reply based solely on A OP. (that's not proper English) I will ALWAYS read further first.

Your Friend
Jerry

jwall,



do you see your contradiction?



What the OP described is the same as deer drives in the South. Did you ever participate in one?

Your post is extremely laughable. For one the livestock on this ranch are bred for big antlers. All you have to do is open up your pocket book and you can buy any size elk you would like.

Here are a couple bulls I got lucky enough to hunt and kill. I think they are probably comparable, except for the fact these are wild bulls and not livestock.
Untitled by dirtytough, on Flickr
D Man and the bull by dirtytough, on Flickr

d a mn tuff, nice bulls!

That top bull is a beast!

I'd take the second one. He's already in the truck......

The wisdom of experience!


LOL

None taken. Glad you at least read through all the posts. Beautiful bulls there, sir. There's just no comparison to what you accomplished and the hunt I was on.

Absolutely NO contradiction. Not only have I not participated in a deer drive "LIKE THE ONE DESCRIBED", I've never SEEN one that REMOTELY resembled that.

We NEVER knew IF we would see A deer, much less a specific SIZED buck.

There is NO comparison.

Jerry

Broadmoor Canyon is no secret, anyone who wants to go there can book an elk of his choosing, be done with the shooting in a day or so and have plenty of time left over to smoke cigars and tell stories. And have his elk and horns all packaged nicely for a nominal extra fee. No need to even get your hands bloody.

I can't speak for the rest of these old yellers, but personally, if I wanted to pay someone for a bull I'd have done it already. And make no mistake, I'm not yelling or screaming, Jorge and his crew had a great time and that's what they came for. I like to tell stories as much as the next guy.

I just object to it being called hunting when the animals are raised in a pen and paid for according to horn size. And having a "guide" by my side for the primary purpose of making sure I didn't shoot a bull that I hadn't paid for.

Reading comprehension and or fact interpretation to suit one's own narrative is about the only constant on this post.
1. There has been no clear or compelling evidence these animals were pen raised.
2. We saw plenty of bulls and yes the guide is there, in addition to knowing the area (about 8 square miles), is there to tell you the approximate size of whatever bull you see. The notion that some kind of "dial a horn" process is in effect is nonsense. If one runs into a 400 bull, you have the option to pass or take him.
3. I must be old, feeble and decrepit, for the amount of effort I put into climbing, descending pretty steep terrain at 7-8K altitude, taxed me to my limit.
4. My elk was shot at 330 or so yards, that is the closest we could get. If they were penned raised and used to human contact, I could have killed him with a knife, not to mention shooting him on the first day, then smoke cigars, drink whisky and abuse the wife for the rest of the time.

Maybe one day, when I have time and or live out west, I can devote a week or two and do a free range elk hunt (no wait, that won't work, because I'm old, feeble and decrepit.


I'm enjoying my elk meat BTW and as posted AD NAUSEA, IDGAF.

Yes jorge, reading comprehension is a bitch. Once again, I'm commenting on 201k's post and thread, not yours.

And yes, there is plenty of evidence that elk at the Boradmoor are raised in an enclosure at another location and trucked to the ranch. To say there is none is just burying your head in the sand.

And yes, I'm sure you can kill a 400 bull if you see it, and I'm sure your guide will tell you exactly how much that privilege will cost, before you pull the trigger. Just so there are no misunderstandings.

This post pretty much sums up my opinion of game ranch hunts.

No misunderstandings at all. I just wanted the facts out there. I did forget to add though, had I chosen, I could have shot one at 600 yards and more, but in my opinion, that's not hunting...

Lastly, there were MO TAGS on these elk.

Not without you or the elk brushing a fence.

Sort of like a long-range restrictor plate.

Touche'

PS: Math is hard. Eight square miles and fence or not, it still ain't ethical..

jorge, why do you insist on crapping in 201k's thread?

PS - LAST POST WAS A JOKE.

News Flash - I don't care what you do or how you hunt. No judgement on this end.

Touche' is French for "you got me" (as in a joke). I just respond every time statements are at variance with the facts.

PS: IDGAF means Idontgiveafuck, meaning, I don't care you don't care...

Your repeated postings make it appear do you care what the others think.

Let this thread die, like it should have long ago.

Why do you post backwards from everyone else?

JorgeI

I am glad you had a successful hunt and a good time. That is what it is all about. And I have read this whole thread..

This thread should be renamed- "The Illusion of Hunting - Safari Clowns visit canned elk hunting pen and argue/reflect about their bad experiences and joy in their adventures" Absolutely a fun read. Especially love the original post, "I have been there and done that".

This one always cracks me up.

Lots of hard chargers no doubt!

Almost as entertaining as those here obsessed with what someone else is doing, legally.

Only a Texan would say that