Going to Colorado on an elk hunt and I am planning on taking my 6.5 Creedmoor....am I crazy??

I have been shooting it along with my 7 Mag and 30-06 all summer...the Creedmoor just out-shoots the other 2 rifles. The Creedmoor shoots just as well at 250 yds as it does at 100 yds. In my head I have 2 voices: one telling me I am under gunned, and the other telling me that a well paced bullet will kill an animal every time.

I will be using Hornady Precision Hunter Ammo with the 143 grain ELD-X bullet and will limit my shots to 250 yds and under....what are your thoughts...am I crazy??


PS - I am starting to fade away from the big magnums I have shot in prior years...taking a beating and with decent accuracy is not fun anymore, LOL!!

I think you'll be just fine.. Good shots will put elk on their chins. Good luck with the hunt.

I’ll have 139 Scenars in mine. I don’t intend to limit myself to 250, only to shots I’m sure I can make. Those slippery bullets hold on to energy pretty good, especially at 10k’!

I dumped a bull last year at 458 yards. High shoulder shot with a 140 Amax, and it exited.....DRT.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../13034818/1/7mm-08-for-my-first-elk-hunt

My thread from a couple weeks back. Pretty much the same question. Lots of good reading here in the first few pages until it got derailed by some blowhards....

Granddaughter has one. We zero’d it 2 days ago (with that bullet) and did a gallon milk jug test. Only three jugs, bullet “came from untogether”, IMHO......not an elk round! Vortex has a load ( Barnes 127 grain LRX)....which should be a much better elk round. Found some at Lucky Gunner at a reasonable ( for store bought ammo) price! memtb

300Mag,

Have you hunted elk before? Bull or Cow?

I am an Eastern hunter too that goes West for elk. It’s be said before, and is true, that the further East you go the bigger the rifle recommendation for elk by the gun store staff. I just shake my head in the gun shops when somebody asks the gun counter guy for elk rifle advise and the “expert” immediately spouts 300 Mag ect. Then when you ask the “expert” about their personal elk hunting experiences it quickly becomes a tale about what he read in a magazine, or online, or their brother-in-law hunted elk once.

My elk rifles have progressed, or regressed, from a 9.3X62, then 54 Cal muzzleloader, then 308 Win and now 270 win. These have all worked with 1 shot kills. I use a 130 TTSX in both the 308 and 270 to keep muzzle velocity above 3K with the TTSX. I don’t shoot at animals running away in the ‘rear shoulders’. I also haven’t taken a shot much over 100 yds in the National Forests I have tags for. I’m sure some get chances at longer range with an animal standing in the middle of a park in daylight, but I haven’t personally seen it!

I don’t have a Creed - yet, but I am sure it will kill any elk you hunt if you put a bullet into the chest.

A ,22 magnum will kill and elk with a chest shot.. The question is how quickly!

djb:

Yes I have hunted elk (Bull) a couple before & have used magnum calibers (7MM & 300WM)...with good results. But like I said in my original post, my Creedmoor is a hammer...it is shooting great!! I guess its my Eastern mentality telling me that I am under-gunned....?? Shots will be most likely be in the 150-200 yd range...and I will be patient & wait for the best possible shot, hopefully standing full broadside...LOL!! I am probably overthinking things here...….



memtb:

I have heard nothing but good things about the ELD-X bullet on big game...elk included. Your post surprises me.....

My niece just took a 335" elk in Utah last Sunday ( a week ago) with a 6.5x284 Not much difference than a 6.5CM
Her younger brother used it yesterday to take a take mule deer at 475 yards. One shot and DRT.


It's all about using the proper bullets and shot placement.

If you shoot it in the heart or lungs, it's going to die. If you hit it in the knee, well... You've just maimed an animal.

Practice, practice, practice.

Use it....

300 Mag,

At the ranges you are speaking of, the difference in accuracy isn't going to make a difference. Any 2-3 MOA rifle will work fine under 200 yds. There is a lot to be said for confidence. Just take whatever you feel most comfortable with. Good luck on your hunt.

djb:

The confidence is in the 6.5 Creedmoor...its headed to Colorado!!

Memtb, just to clarify, are you talking about the ELD-X bullet?

I have a friend who is thinking of using them in our upcoming elk hunt.

If you had problems with them, this seems concerning as well: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13149713/what-happened#Post13149713

I generally hope my bullets stay together, at least, until they hit the intended target.

I would worry more about finding elk than shooting one...

Yes! I was “not” impressed! On a perfect, broadside shot, no problem.....anything else, results would be questionable! I certainly can’t recommend it. But, likely my granddaughter will be using it.....because I can’t reason with her father. Some people don’t believe video evidence!

We did find a small piece of core material, didn’t weight it, but it couldn’t have weighed more than 10 to 20 grains. memtb

I am taking my 243 elk hunting, and I'm not crazy.......

Crazy?
No.

Misguided? Maybe.

I see this all the time.

"Load or Rifle X is 2X more accurate then Load or Rifle Y."

Such lack of logic seems to be common today, as a result of becoming misguided about what matters and what doesn't.

I'd ask------- If you are shooting from your belly over a pack on uneven ground that is not flat (a) can you tell the difference in accuracy?

And then (B) why would it matter ----when your target's kill zone is as large as a breadbox?

If your 7 mag or 30-06 are, lets say, 10X more accurate then you need, how is having one 20X more accurate then you need going to help you?

If you can hit the vital zone of the elk with a rifles you are more familiar with at 2X or 3X farther then you should be shooting anyway, going to a "more accurate" round that is less powerful and may not give the same degree of penetration is exactly backwards of what you should do.

I live in elk country. I hunt in some of the best elk country every single year ,and I have been hunting and guiding for elk hunts for most of my life and I am NOT a young man anymore. I have about 1/2 a century of experience in this.

This obsession with "accuracy" and the loss of sight of everything else that is far more important, is a national phenomenon that is 100% unjustified in elk hunting.

I have killed more of them than I can count and seen probably between 3X to 5X more then that killed by other hunters.

In my life, the longest shot I EVER made on an elk was about 400 yards. The next longest shot ever was about 300, and the next longest was about 175. ALL the others have been killed at 150 and less, with about 50% being killed at 50 yards and less. And that's not because I could have have shot farther, but the existence of a brain and some ability to hunt caused me, for 50 years, to always get closer. It's not hard to get under 500 yards from an elk and if you can't you (or your guide) are not doing it right.

But with all that said, it's in no way a condemnation of the 6.5 CM if you load a good bullet in it. I would feel fine hunting them with my 6.5X54 M/S which is less powerful then your CM.
But the bullet is important and that bullet should retain 70% or more of it's weight for elk hunting. Most of the super-accuracy bullets made today for the 6.5MM bore will not do that. Barnes, Nosler Partitions, Swift, and anything that is bonded are your friends when you hunt elk. (note, that is not just for the 6.5 either, but also for your 7MM and your 30 cal too)

But your 6.5CM is just fine. So are your other rifles. The 6.5CM is very close to the same ballistics of the 6.5 Swede, and that is a success story and history that is beyond question.

If you are going to invest in a dream hunt, and spend time and money to come west to do it, do not make a mistake of changing horses mid-stream. Go with the rifle you are most familiar with. To know what to do, go shoot 20 rounds from sitting, kneeling and standing with each rifle at a paper target of about 16" square. Do it all from 150 yards, but when you shoot do so in the order of 3 shots 6 times and 2 shots 1 time. (=20 rounds) And do so at a "go" signal with only 15 seconds per string. Any shots not fired in 15 seconds or less from the "Go" are counted as misses. Don't cheat. If you cheat you are only cheating yourself, and it will not help you to do that.

The rifle that you get the tightest group with, in the shortest time, is the one to bring. This test is to give you an HONEST overview of which rifle you will do the best with, not which one is "more accurate" It shows you which rifle YOU shoot best in REAL hunting times and positions.
It's YOU doing the shooting, not your gun!

Elk are big. You don't need and can't even use the difference between 1.5 MOA and .3 MOA.

Szhin:

I have shot all 3 rifles from various field postions not just off the bench...at this time I tend to shoot the Creedmoor more accurately...feel
more comfortable shooting it too!! Maybe its the lack of recoil or whatever, but I feel confident shooting this rifle. Do I wish the other 2 shot as well to have a little extra horsepower, hell yeah!!

Gotta take my time, be patient, & calmly execute a good shot.....hopefully it all comes together!!

Nope! Use with confidence.

We all gain a little wisdom with age.

I'd worry more about getting a suitable elk in front of me than rifle chambering.
I wouldn't hesitate in using the 6.5 Creedmoor. Best of luck with your hunt!

I haven't killed anything with the 143 ELDX yet, but I messaged alaska-lanche here, and he has whacked numerous head of game up in Alaska with that exact bullet. Not sure I'd worry too much about some water jug test, as I like real world, game killing experience. Just my thoughts.

I wouldn't hesitate to take that 6.5 if it were me. I'd probably use a 140 Accubond though, 'cause I'm an AB slut.

I'd hate to see the water jug of a lifetime get away wounded....;)

It is not the gun I would choose. Having said that, my GF shot a mature cow moose last year with my swede and 130 gr accubonds. Hit the moose on the run quartering away at 80 yards. Bullet travelled diagonally and was found under the hide on the other side.

Worked fine..


I am a big Hornady fan - but , the ELD-X would not be my choice of bullet on an animal that size.

It will do just fine... 12 year old daughter killed this water jug at 450 yards with a 260 and 140gr Amax a few years ago...

I fired 4 rounds with my 300MAG into this Elk below & the bullets bounced off, I'd suggest building a custom 475 H&H Magnum before the hunt.


[size:14pt][/size]

I certainly wish you the best! Please get back to us about your hunt. When you get your elk, all the “gory” details would be welcome! memtb

I didn’t shoot jugs, but I did shoot damp magazines. Surprised me, but the 139 Scenar penetrated the most followed by 127 LRX, 140 Partition, then a ways back in no order were 147 ELD, 143 ELD-X and 140 VLD.

"I have shot all 3 rifles from various field postions not just off the bench...at this time I tend to shoot the Creedmoor more accurately...feel
more comfortable shooting it too!!"

I'd say that's your answer then.

In hunting big game, accuracy is 95% the function of the shooter and 5% the function of the rifle and the ammo.

Use the one you use the best. As long as you have a bullet that will expand and still go through, it doesn't matter as much what rifle you use, as it does how well you use it.

I seem to remember that test and found it very interesting. Got a link?

I know an 85 pound 13 year old that got a cow elk in UT on Saturday with 6.5CM Kimber 84M.

Lots of examples of young kids and women shooting elk with a cartridge at the top or near their recoil maximum. The creedmoor will certainly kill elk but is marginal for angled shots, thick bones, longer distances. I only get 1 week of elk hunting a year and am not interested in passing a makeable shot because I selected something less than I’m capable of shooting. I went the other way and traded my super accurate 7mm for a very accurate 300 Weatherby to extend my effective range and get a little more oomph. Most everything under 200 is still a neck shot with either rifle.

Use the 6.5CM and stick to your personal limits and you will be fine. Sounds like you’re very confident with the rifle/accuracy and that is IMO more important than using a magnum caliber.

And most of all, have fun on your trip.

I hesitate to post but..... No experience with the 143 eldx on elk, only 2 deer....but I'm not sure I'd want to use that bullet for elk. Both bucks died but I'm a little skeptical on the bullet's performance. Again, only a sample of two and neither were perfect broadside shots. Others seem to have had great performance so it's only my experience.....I'll probably try it again on deer just because I'm so curious and want it to work.

Here it is:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...creed-moose-and-bear-bullet#Post13004529

The Scenar seems to be constructed of a more robust core material. It was impressive. It did pencil through the first layer of ~1.5" particle board, but then left a comparable channel the rest of the way. I wish I had soaked the magazines a little more. Too dry and it really tears bullets up, especially the softer bullets.

On rifle hunts, I haven’t seen but one elk killed in the last 10-12 years with anything but a 260. 140 SGK is among the most frangible of “game” bullets, and a few elk shot with 140s died just as dead. The last two cows were lowly 120 accutip blems (Hornady SST is same/same, but Hornady never made 120s with a red tip) started out at 2800 fps... both were dead in less than 5 yards. Got both recovered slugs, look just like an ad picture from a manufacturer, and came from the hide under the off side. Haven’t recovered many 140s, they just exit, reliably... SGK is the one that doesn’t exit, but theres nothing to recover bullet wise.

Haven’t had a Creedmoor long enough to shoot an elk with one... but put an elk in front of it and a tag in my pocket, and it’s gonna be dead as disco pronto.

do it, it will work!!

My concern, the bullet. My hunting partner shot and elk last year with a 7mm rem mag. about 50 yards away broadside. But the only spot he could see was the front shoulder, so he shot it there. Bull rolled down the hill and got up and ran away limping, no follow up shot. lucky for us there was snow on the ground. We tracked it for about 1/2 mile and spotted it bedded, we were close, real close, as in 20 yards. He shot it thru the lungs this time, twice. Took a long time to die.
1st shot, hit the scapula and the bullet blew up, hardly any penetration. Did not break any bone, how do I know?? I deboned it for the pack out and checked, I wanted to know what happened, I loaded the round. Shots 2 and 3-- one hit a rib bone the other did not. NEITHER of these two bullets did a pass thru, I found both of the while skinning...at 20 yards?? Granted the speed of partners 7mm was only 2880 they both should have zipped thru. Animal I have seen shot with this bullet. It was the ONLY bullet his gun would shoot so we used it. Never again!!!

Tom, what type of bullet were these?

Only a 475 creed will
Work!

Hey slgay888....You still have that boyfriend??

If you are using the 6.5, I will take the 06 off your hands😎.

Killing a bull elk with a 6mm has been done time and time again. My experience has been with 308 Win, 338 Win Mag and 444 Marlin. With shoulder shots, the last two put down elk much better than the 308 Win ever did. I never shoot elk in the lungs if I can help it, I always drill the shoulders to shut them down (the 338 Win Mag is exceptional in providing quick kills and no tracking). The 6.5mm chamber is fine, a shoulder or lung shot made well and you'll harvest the animal. Like all shots made on game some are better than others. Big animals can sometimes travel long distances regardless of caliber, an elk hit with a thirty-five bore will bleed like a stuck pig, hit with a 6mm-7mm, not so much. That's the only difference, and when tracking it can make all the difference. There will always be a noticeable difference in hitting a bull elk or any 600+ lbs game animal with a medium bore (.338, .358, .366 or .375) vs. a small bore for if there wasn't there would be a need for medium and large bore cartridges in the first place. Shoot well.

It could be up for sale Paul.........

162 grain ELD X Hornadys

Just shoot the greatest hunt bullet ever made man.. Partition. Never seen a Partition in any caliber that didn't shoot very well. No guessing.. Same same every time you pull the trigger. I'd have to look at my note book but I believe I ran 'the 140 at 2725fps and elk died. I didn't care for the rifle it was chambered so it went down the road. CM, .260rem make elk real sick real quick. Great elk round. Pick your poison and enjoy the bounty... Be safe and man I hope you have a great time!

My experience was a little different.




7mm Rem Mag, 162 ELDX. One shot, dead right now.


Same rifle and load, different shooter, same result.




150 ELDX, 7mm-08, 407 yards.



Four of the five bucks we killed last year died from ELDX bullets. Nothing needed shooting twice.

Maybe it ain’t the bullet.






P

I would worry way more about finding an elk to shoot than what caliber I’m shooting!

You might be onto something...

I’d rather talk about beer, a more interesting topic. Heady Topper is outstanding!

To fattening my friend!

Nothing like a Melvin IPA when coming out of the mountains...

300MAG

I know it's a little late in the game, but I would take whatever you are most confident with, within reason, and I certainly think that the 6.5CM is more than reasonable. Just be sure to use a bullet fitting to the task and make a good shot.

Good luck to you!

Be sure to come back with a good story to tell us!!

Well when you poke one thru the ribs (actually two) with a bullet at close range, it does not exit, and you watch the animal die and it take a long time, plus it did not work that well on the first shot I will not give that bullet a second chance. Plus a guy I know who guides for mule deer hunts had 4 different clients last year use ELDX bullets. Every deer had to be shot multiple times to kill it. I'm glad your experience was good, mine was not. Maybe it was a batch of bad bullets.
Maybe it ain't the bullet??? What was it then??? The shooter shot the bull, granted hitting the scapula was not the best choice. But twice broadside thru the lungs??

Don’t know what to tell you. We were seven for seven, and three of those seven were elk, and big ones.

Shoot what you have confidence in.





P

If you're crazy, then so am I. I'll be packing my 6.5CM and leaving my 30-06 at home this year.

Leaving the 06 at home? Oh man, have fun on your hunt.

Bust a big one.

Tom
There were a few bad batches of the ELDX being reported. I’m a Berger fan myself though.

The 13 year old that got a cow elk on Saturday with 6.5C was using the 143 gr hornady.

Hunt elk with confidence with your 6.5. It's about a tough deep penetrating bullet "Properly Placed". We have been taking elk for years with the 6.5. Never a problem. The biggest problem I have seen with new elk hunters is being very rattled when elk are sighted. Try to remain as calm as possible & make sure your brain is squeezing the trigger & that your emotions are not jerking it....

I've killed one bull elk with my 6.5-06 AI at 200 yds. I was shooting 140 Berger Hunting VLD's at 3220 fps. The bullet performed well as it went through both front shoulders and the bull dropped in his tracks. There was more tissue damage than I like typically but he was dead so.....

With that said I wouldn't recommend a 6.5 as an elk rifle even though it obviously can work.

Chalk up one more for the ELDX. My nephew killed his first buck this morning. 7mm-08, 150 ELDX, 250 yards. Double lung and exit, no bone, 9 yard recovery. A piece of lung was poking out the exit hole. I took a pic of the lungs, there’s a hole about the size of a quarter you can see through.




P

I think I've taken 8 elk, 5 wolves, and maybe a half dozen pronghorn with the 143 eld-x out of a 6.5x55. The first load I used was slow at around 2680 the new load averages 2815. Ranges have been from about 50 yards to right at about 400. I have been pretty happy with performance and am using the same bullet again this year. I think all but 2 bullets exited. I don't think I would want to push this particular bullet much faster, but at the speed I'm shooting them they perform well and shoot wonderful.

Any luck 300 MAG?

I don’t have any experience with the Creedmoor but the crowd I hunt with generally sneers at the prospect....

Would not think twice about using the CM . Go for it!

I know several hunters in the past who have done quite well with the 260 Remington and the 6.5X55 swede. The 6.5CM is going to do the same thing.
Use a good bullet that will hold together and you will be fine.

Maybe, maybe not but this is just one more reason I don’t own a 6.5 Creedmoor...

“This is one more reason...”. What reason?

I can see many reasons to have one and use it for elk.

It does something really well as it was designed. Shooting elk is another thing. The fascination with the 6.5 has been overblown and although it can kill elk, there are better choices. It still divides people in it’s value as a big game cartridge, and if you disagree you are some kind of crackpot. I continue to shoot elk and will kill plenty with a cartridge better suited for that purpose...

Ok

300 Mag, I have a few 7 mags and one custom 6.5 creed.

The 7 Mags are all rem 700's, custom stocks, bedded, tuned triggers, bedded, freefloated barrels, muzzle breaks on all of them. These remignton 700's are extremely accurate shooting 2.5-3.5" groups at 600 yards.

160g Accubonds with 70-71g of Retumbo, Rem brass, Fed 215, bullet touching the lands shoots clover leafs at 100.

Having said that, We hunted off of mules in Az. I shot cow elk with a 243 loaded with 100g Partitions and H4831 at 3050 fps, Rem 700's. Shots were not long, and all the cows hit the ground within 20' of being hit...they were not scared of the mules and never saw the man sitting on the mule.

With the fascination with the 6.5 along with TV shows that are heavily edited, I would not like to see guys get sucked into a worst case scenario. It is a very hollow feeling to know that you have to chase a wounded elk down into the roughest, rockiest canyon that you could imagine. I could not even get my mules down into some of this treacherous terrain.

Before you pull down on an elk, think of how you are going to get to that animal, and what happens if you make a bad hit. Know your trajectory on up and down hill shooting, especially if you are quartering up the animal and packing them out on your back.

Some broke dicks could not even pack out the meat you will bone of a bull's neck, must less both of the back straps. The same broke dicks will probably bring a leatherman on their belt to help butcher what they shoot! Hind quarters are 200 lbs plus.

Dam, use enough gun! All this internet schitt is just mind blowing with all the minimalist bull schitt! The average joe can barely hit a bull in the azz with a base fiddle! Who are you kidding!

If you are a city guy with a hunt scheduled with a decent guide, pick a 7 RM or a 300 win and get proficient with good elk bullets. City guys with out access to long range shooting, will not shoot like TV EXPURTS!

I wonder how many [bleep] posting this BS have ever trailed a gut shot elk, cow or bull?

Quality ramble there...

Lol on both counts... Merry Christmas.

I'm pissed. I got to thinking about some of the work I had to do because of bad shots. I almost lost a darn good horse because he cut his hock bad in loose rock after he went down the mountain side, I grabbed a tree limb from above and slid out of the saddle.

Had a bear cover one bull with limbs and schitt all over the carcus, that we could not get to until the next day, it goes on and on.

Use enough gun, only take shots at distances that match your shooting skills and distance you want to shoot.

Practice, practice, and Practice

Lighter recoiling rifles = better shooting. Be pissed at yourself maybe?

Folks who use marginal cartridges for elk are akin to fly fishermen who use the lightest tippet possible, except there ain’t much catch and release with poorly shot elk. Short rant.... LOL!

That said, I won’t be using any 6 or 6.5 mm rifles for elk hunting. To each his own conscience. Happy Trails

You really believe the 6.5 CM is “marginal” for elk?

Please explain why, and your experience with 6.5’s that has led you to this belief...

Where did you read that rear quarters are 200# each?

14 hours ago I posted that I have no personal experience with the Creedmoor. See above.

It is my opinion that none of the Creedmoors shoot heavy enough bullets at an adequate velocity providing enough penetration and exits to reliably put down elk in every situation. My belief is founded in seeing failures with similar cartridges and flat out believing the 6mm and 6.5 CM are really not adequate for elk. Again, just my opinion and I certainly respect yours.

From his vast "experiences"....

JGRaider, my rifles shoot 1/2-1 MOA at 600. I helped others since I had good mules.

Horse1, a big Bull's hind quarter is so heavy and awkward that one man can hardly lift it.

Trying to balance it going up hill in loose ground is another issue.

Face it.
You are a cranky old man stuck in the 1800’s

Where did you read that?

Opinion, based in belief, founded on guesses... I find it difficult to respect an opinion based on nothing but preconceived ideas coupled with no experience.

There are plenty of people here on 24 hr, as well as local friends, that have taken elk with the small 6.5's. For now I'll stick with their opinion until I form my own based on actual experience. When I post on these threads I try to speak only from personal experience.

And BTW, this thread is about the 6.5 Creedmoor... not the 6mm version.

The 6.5X55 and 7X57 have been taking elk, bear and moose since the 1890's. They traveled the globe and have taken every animal in Africa including elephant for almost 130 years. At some point hunters fell for the advertising hype and bought into the notion that they needed bigger, more powerful cartridges to take game larger than whitetails. The way I see it the rise in popularity of rounds like the 6.5 CM, 260, and 7-08 is hunters coming back to their senses.



The 140 gr 6.5 bullets will match a 180gr 30 caliber bullet in penetration if using bullets of the same construction. That isn't just theory, it's been proven. If a 180 gr 30-06 doesn't give enough penetration what does.

Basing decisions by using the SWAG theory.......the 24 HCF never disappoints.

Here's what Finn Aagaard had to say about the penetration of the 6.5x55 vs the 30-06 in his excellent Hunting Rifles & Cartridges.

In the test, the 140's from the 6.5x55 were loaded at 2,700 fps. Right where the 6.5 Creedmoor lives.

Finn doesn't list the 30-06/180 speed, but based on his extensive writing about that round, I think it's safe to assume 2,750 fps +/-

I guess it is just dumb luck having taken all the elk I have over the years with a 6.5x55, 6.5x308, 260 Rem, 6.5-06. All taken with the Barnes original 120gr X & now the TSX. Have yet to have recovered a bullet.A deep penetrating properly placed bullet works out of a 338 mag or a 6.5 Rem, etc.

Great information Brad... I'm glad you posted that...thanks. Dan

Just bring a back up rifle in case the bullets bounce off the hide!

I have taken 5 deer with my .260, 4 Mulies and one whitetail. All were with 130ABLR Based on the terminal damage to the deer I would choose a stronger or tougher bullet for my .260 on elk.

Have a lot of 130 bullets and too lazy to do some load development with a new bullet. Just easier to grab my 7Mag. Which I am very familiar and comfortable with.

Maybe more about the rifle than the cartridge it is chambered for. Have killed elk with the 7 with Sierra 175, Noslers, and good grief core lockded. All killed elk pretty quick.



Lefty C

As long as you don't plan on shooting less than a 1000 yds!

In Az, Bulls out of Units 2A & B, Cows from Show Low

Helped others all over the state...friends and family when I did not get drawn

Mule Deer out of Blue River area, Az side, Bagdad, South Rim of Grand canyon.

Hauled mules to NM, went to Colorado bought mules and Missouri for Fox trotters & and mules, hauled them back to Az.

Thanks for sharing. That does not surprise me. Only critter I shot was a Muley and the 139 Scenar went in one side and out the other doing significant damage to the offside lung. For reference, my 139-143 weight bullets all run 2750-2790. Nothing in my limited experience gives me reason to pause about using it on an elk.

I've shot quite a few bullets from 308s, 338-06, 338 Fed and 6.5 Creedmoor into damp media and the well built 6.5s do quite well. I include about 2" of particle board at the front to test the bullets a bit more. Finn was right, dry paper is really hard on bullets. Too hard for most cup and core bullets. For reference, the 139 Scenar did not open on the particle board and only once it was a couple inches into the damp media, then it out penetrated every 6.5 bullet I tried. On the mule deer, it made a small hole the first few inches then created a very nice wound channel and blew a nice sized hole out the off side. There is something different in the 139s construction from other C&C bullets.

Bell, Selous, Smuts, and Charles Sheldon used various 6.5's of lesser velocity and bullet quality than what is available with today's 6.5 Creedmoor. Sheldon took over 500 head of NA game with the .256 Mannlicher, including 70-80 Grizzly and Brown Bears.

And yet somehow through conjecture, group-think, and pure guessing the reigning opinion is the 6.5 Creedmoor is not up to elk.

I've shot enough large bull elk to stick my neck out and say it should work, and work well... I plan on wringing it out in the future.

I watched my son flatten a big old cow at a shade over 500 yards with a 127LRX outta the .260 the other day.... it went through about 36” of elk before it exited. I’d have no problem running a 6.5 Creed on an elk hunt... provided we’re talking sound projectiles.

This just about squashes out any desire to own a 30 cal magnum.

Yes it does. The Sheldon book is an eye-opener of adventure of a bygone era.

Shooting Sheldons guns won’t make you a hunter any more than using Tiger Wood’s golf clubs will get you into the PGA...

Did Jeff kill a bull with the Creed ? That is the real question???

I know this topics has been sidetracked, but did the OP get an elk?

Inquiring minds want to know.

And if so, did he happen to weigh the hind quarters?

On the other hand, if someone were to give me the same set of clubs Tiger Woods uses, I'd be hard pressed to say I needed anything "better."

Or did Jeff cripple a bull and is keeping his mouth shut...

So you base YOUR opinion on others and not on any personal experience, yet rail on my ass for not having personally used the 6.5? WTF?

So I guess I should sell all my Weatherby magnums and run out and by a Ruger American in 6.5 Creedmoor? Fat fuggin chance of that! LOL

As long as I'm physically capable of shooting a .300 Wby or 7mm Wby, I won't be using any of the aforementioned .264s for elk.

Happy Trails

I'd rather have something bigger for elk than a Creedmor, but that's just me. To me the Creedmore is better suited for deer and antelope.

Brad, read Finn alot, one article his wife was going after elk with her Sako 7/08. Apparently after she bagged her elk, they discovered she grabbed the wrong ammo, 140 Rem CL is what she used. IIRC, the older loadings used the 139 IL SP - over W760. Nothing fancy, but you can bet she used good shot placement. Hmm.

Anytime Elk and the 6.5 comes up, I think of Alan aka GSSP. His Elk was taken just under 1,000 yds using a 47 Lapua w/127 LRX. One shot.....

Yeah, that must have been luck right? It's not rocket science.

If one used archery as an analogy, "Is this Bow powerful enough for xyz?"

Well put a sharp broadhead thru vitals and get back with me....after you dressed your game.

Stunt shooter...

The one and only bull I've taken with a 150 Ballistic Tip and the 7-08. Died faster than any other bull I've taken, with any cartridge, on up to the 338 WM... I doubt a 6.5 Creedmoor would have behaved differently:

Very nice elk Brad !

Love the 140 AB in the 7/08, but in the BT, the 150 to my thinking is a much better big game bullet, I assume the jacket is heavier and retained weight better, as well as residual energy. I would not hesitate using it as you did, or in the 150/JOC combo The Latter dumped a large buck for me....in 3 short leaps, about like a 200gr BT did from a 338/06.

My only kill to date was this Alaskan caribou at 275 yds. with a 143gr. ELD-X with 43gr R-16. One shot and that was it. That is McKinley in the background - 75 miles away.

Nice bull, Brad! How many times did you shoot him to die so quickly?

Is the photo of your body double or are you in the Witness Protection Program?

65BR, I would have preferred the 140 AB, but in that particular rifle the Ballistic Tip was incredibly accurate. I actually think the jacket is the same as the 140 Accubond. Regardless, either are great bullets.

Joe, that's a really great photo of you and the caribou!

WAM - one shot with 32" of penetration angling forward from the ribs, through the lungs, and to the off side shoulder.

But obviously cartridges like the 7-08 and 6.5 Creedmoor aren't adequate as we can clearly see...

Brad, I'm not trying to be critical. It just looked like 2 wound areas on his side. Great bull in anybody's book!

Point taken. I'll shut up about the 6.5's and keep my opinions to myself on that subject. I can't wait to see what the marketeers sell us next since the 6.5x55 and .260 Rem have been around a long time and never gained much popularity.

Happy Trails

WAM,

It isn’t about marketeers selling the 6.5 Creedmoor. Quite the contrary- you never needed a magnum to kill elk easily. THAT was and is marketing. What you are seeing with the Creedmoor is a rediscovery by the masses that you don’t need magnums.


Nothing more.

Formidilosus,

You have a great point there!

I have been wrong before and I can prove it.

Happy Trails

Good eye!

When he went down, in his death-throes, he somehow managed to impale himself... the higher blood spot near the spine is where his 6th point got caught in his hide. In all my years hunting I've never seen this... it was a real chore to get the antler unstuck.

Most folks couldn't hit Tiger's or any other strong pro's clubs. The shafts would likely be too stiff.

Proof right there, the 7/08 has an added "Shrapnel effect" not seen in other rounds


Re: Marketing, actually the desire to see higher sales of ammo and components drove MARKETING to support R&D to build a better mousetrap than REM's 260 and 7/08, simply buy putting good stuff together, at attractive prices. 6.5CM factory ammo, runs circles around the other 2. Hornady schools Remington in..... Marketing.

The 2 most accurate rounds I have shot, are the 6mmBR and 6.5x47. The CM..... is close. Tailor a 260 or 7/08 with handloads, and for hunting purposes you are for most purposes...same same. As to the Killing part......as always, the driver determines success if using a good bullet.

I always enjoy the caliber arguments. Most that argue against suitability of obviously suitable rifle choices, unbeknownst to them have way more to worry about than their rifle.

Not to mention length. The good thing is, they make shafts of different stiffness, that can be cut to length.

But that's well beside the point.

If everything goes right, your 6.5 CM will kill an elk, but the same thing can be said for the .460 Weatherby.

I've killed elk and seen elk killed with smaller cartridges. I will continue to use my .300 Weatherby or 7 mm RM for my elk.

6.5 Creed popularity is because of marketing for sure and good job they've done.

I shot my first moose with a 260Rem simply because I was hunting with my 80yr old dad and he cant shoot a hard kicking gun anymore. With that said my dad has shot all his moose over the years with a 6.5x55. Also worth mentioning he's never had a shot over 150 yards.

I would rather some use a small 6.5 they can shoot well over using a canon they can't shoot straight.

Not everyone can afford multiple rifles for different applications.....keep the shots close and the 6.5 will do the job.

PS Helped a friend recover an elk he shot with a 243 last fall.....it went 30 yards and piled up....shot was 90 yards.

Here's one I took in 2017 with a 6.5 140 grain JLK. Seemed to work well enough, although the Schmidt Bender PMII was not the best rifle scope for 10 yard shots in the timber.

Most contributors on this site don't realize they are also marketing this cartridge.
John

thats good advice
Ive hunted elk mostly in Colorado and Wyoming about every other year , sometimes I get two or three years in a row, or two states in succession in one year, hunting for over 50 years,
guys worry far too much about rifles caliber and long range , I think all but two of the elk Ive shot were at well under 200 yards and any decent 30/06 would have got the job done splendidly.
I prefer and have a great deal of confidence in my 340 wby and 375 H&H, but my late hunting partner used a 358 win BLR for decades successfully, the key is not in the rifle or cartridge is mostly in being in good physical shape, confidence in your selected skills and equipment, research on the area hunted, and knowing how to find game and dogged unrelenting persistence. If you look over the kill statistics most states show less than a 25% kill ratio to licences in even good areas, in my opinion thats simply because if you drive around any area youll see guys sitting in camp at any time of the day after the first two or three days and most guys pack it in well before the seasons over.

Isn’t that the truth.

Like I said earlier in the thread

pheasant665,

Welcome to the Campfire!

But as has been pointed out many times before (and not just one Campfire but other places) that the 6.5 Creedmoor did NOT appear 2-3 years ago, and become popular because of "marketing hype." Instead it was introduced in 2007 as as target round. Then some hunters started using it, and discovered it worked very well, in fact better than already established 6.5mm rounds withe the same basic ballistics.

This was because Hornady made very accurate factory ammo which didn't cost much, and the first factory hunting rifles were very accurate, and not just with handloads but that factory ammo. This is very different than what Remington did with the .260, with it's 1-9 twist and often mediocre factory ammo-, hat after a few years you couldn't buy (if you could find it) in anything except the 140 Core-Lokt.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is also VERY different than the 6.5x55, because 6.5x55 chambers and actions have varied so widely since 1892 that nobody can make factory ammo that works anywhere nearly as good as 6.5 Creedmoor ammo in various 6.5x55 rifles. This is a major point that many rifle loonies (like you) miss, because they assume EVERYBODY handloads, and probably for a custom rifle, or at least a "tuned" factory rifle.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is VERY accurate in just about any rifle, and there's a wide variety of pretty inexpensive factory ammo available loaded with an incredibly wide variety of both match and hunting bullets. I know all this because of having many 6.5 rifles over the years, including several factory and custom .260's and 6.5x55's (as well as a bunch of other 6.5's), plus actually owning, shooting and hunting with several 6.5 Creedmoors. In fact the very first 100-yard group I fired with my first 6.5 Creedmoor, a factory Ruger, back in 2010, was with Hornady factory ammo. It measured around .6 inch--for 5 shots, not the typical three shots most hunters shoot today.

All of this also why the 6.5 Creedmoor has become one of the standard world-wide cartridges chambered in factory rifles, which means not just in America but Europe and elsewhere. One of my friends is a long-time South African professional hunter who also owns a big sporting goods store. He reports that around 80% of the new rifles he sells these days are 6.5 Creedmoors--because they work, whether with factory ammo or handloads.

Marketing gets something new off the ground but the public ultimately decides its fate. Doesn't matter if its the 6.5CM, a new bow feature, a "miracle" fabric or a new vacuum cleaner. Marketing cannot defeat the real world value of the new item. If it has merit - marketing will not be needed as word of mouth will take over and sell the product.
In the case of the CM, the history of its development was to provide long-range shooters a better cartridge. They apparently succeeded. As an encore, they created a suitable hunting bullet to go with the round and the rest is history - as Mule Deer just chronicled.

Well said Joe.

You don't see many guys that eager to finish caping. Nice going, GH.

Did 300mag go the way of Hatchet Jack?

I absolutely agree. I have always been a 7 mag fan and still am, but they are spending a lot of time sitting around, since the arrival of my Creed and two, .260s. As I get older, I am having a lot more fun shooting/testing loads, with a light-kicking, accurate rifle, that costs relatively little to reload.

You've already made your mind up, but hard to understand why the '06 isn't going,

Doubt the accuracy diff is that much to matter on an Elk size target at any reasonable range.

Lots of cartridges kill elk just fine and the 6.5mm Creedmoor is very much in that club.

Where the 6.5mm CM shines is combining elk killing with soft recoil, outstanding accuracy with factory ammo, and just general good manners.

A few examples.











If you struggle with killing elk while using the 6.5mm CM rest assured more recoil will only increase the struggle.

Where is the AAR Jeff?

14B in the talkeetnas or 20A? If that's is a 14B caribou dandy bull for sure.. if it's a20A bull great job getting a good bull, those damn things think they are sheep half the time..

I have also used lesser rounds on elk, under ideal conditions. Nowadays, as I get older, and opportunities become fewer for me, my .300 Wby. will get the nod. Elk shot well with the big .300 eliminate tracking jobs.

Elk shot well with 6.5mm Creedmoor don't require any more tracking.

Just Sayin and guess which round is easier to shoot well.

John, What is ur preferred elk bullet and how has it performed? Pass throughs?

Thanks Roy

14B in the talkeetnas or 20A? If that's is a 14B caribou dandy bull for sure.. if it's a20A bull great job getting a good bull, those damn things think they are sheep half the time.. [/quote]


Yes 14B - sure was a lot of searching in all those square miles to find the critters. I am happy as a beginner. Hope to go back again someday - if the "draw odds" work for me. The meat is tender and mild too!

Good shooting goes a long ways. I really like my 6.5CM but it's not a mag pushing a big, heavy bullet. Know you gun and shoot well and success will be yours. Seen many elk that were taken with the 260 and 7-08 and see no reason why the 6.5 would not work as well.

Back to the marketing aspect for a moment. If you buy gun magazines you know there is going to be a high level of marketing to push products. If you are open to something new, it won't take a lot of convincing for the "pitch" to work. But if you start from a position of skepticism, the sales pitch is going to work a lot harder to get you to buy.
A lot of us are gun loonies of various intensities. So we are more inclined to try something new in our area of interest. And within our "group", there are subsets of some more willing to buy than others. Some are spontaneous while others are more calculating. The Classifieds bear this out with the number of gadgets and gear that is posted daily.
How many times do you read someone saying "going in another direction", or "clearing out the safe", "bought it here but never shot it". These are who marketers need to sell inventory. It is all good and the bedrock of capitalism.

You will find the 6.5 Creedmoor Happy Hunting Grounds at the end of the Yellow Brick Road. You will find Unicorns & Magic Dragons aplenty. Your magic rifle will kill them with ease as you bask in the rainbow glow emitted from the bullet flight path. They may simply drop dead by just pointing the gun in their direction.

Berger 130gr VLD and 130gr AR Hybrid.

Pass through on ribs and usually if just one shoulder is hit.

Both shoulders typically stop them.

ive had a couple feel that way when I got back to the pickup

What's amazing about that article is, a gunwriter actually admitted they were wrong. Excluding our own JB, most today do not.

Jeff killed a very nice 5x5 with the 7 Mag....the Creedmoor stayed home!!

Ha!!

where are the pics and story?

Don't know how the hell to post pictures on here anymore since the photobucket deal!!!

Open an Imgur account. It's easy and free.

Upload from you Pictures to Images. Clickk on an image and it'll enlarge. You are given several options to copy and paste. Select the next to last one for this forum.

DF

And that is one of the many reasons I miss Finn Aagards writings so much. He told it how he saw it and didn't try to put a spin on it or try to pretty it up too much.
He was a great hunter and writer.
Les

I was going to post a couple of photos from my recent cow hunt. But photobucket won't work tonite. Just reporting that I put the sneak on a group of elk and picked out a fat cow at 135 yards. As an aside I have to say snow camo and crab crawling got me nice and close. Anyway, I nestled into the side of a sagebrush plant and line up for a double lung angle.
At the shot, she dropped, slowly rolled over and slide down the hill until some brush caught her. No bullet recovery unfortunately and I slid her down the hill about 300 yards further to the awaiting truck. Shortest elk hunt at less than an hour. Makes up for the long hunts.

**I should also report that the magazine release on the Tikka T3x froze and I couldn't release the mag to remove the rounds. I am sure that happened in the "sneaking phase" of the stalk as the snow depth was well over a foot. So just be aware of that possibility. I removed the rounds with the bolt instead. **

Was she 'nice' ? If she wasn't, you are the first guy ever, to not pick a "nice, fat cow". I always wondered how guys could tell how nice one is, and if they could also tell how to avoid the bitchy ones......

Big whoop, what bullet?

I look at how they react when their boyfriend get’s shot...The cows that stand around looking at him, I consider nice. The ones that run away quickly are obviously the bitches. 😁😎

LMFAO

Cow elk are like cattle. The high headed ones are C U Next TuesdayS

huntsman,

Have noticed the same sort of thing when somebody shoots a forkhorn mule deer. They're always "fat forkhorns."
Apparently nobody has ever killed a skinny forkhorn, though I have seen a few here and there, including in pickup beds.

Truer words have never been spoken!

The fat, "dry" doe/cow is another good one....

143 ELD-X. Instead of a nice fat cow, I almost wrote that I had the pick of the litter. Two elk stood by the fallen one while the others started to bunch-up and trot off. They soon followed.

That right there is a noshitter! LOL

Pat,

Maybe the fat, dry doe and the fat forkhorn should get together and have some fat fawns....

That's why I like at least 20x on a hunting rifle...really get in there are see the condition of the milkery.

What if the one you pick out as a nice fat dry cow identifies as being a d***head skinny forkhorn? Who are we to impose our preconceived view of their gender?
Is this when the .270 is more socially acceptable than the Creedmoor, or are they equally appropriate?

One should never assume a rifle's chambering. That is socially unacceptable.

Or my favorite.... I shot a 3 year old spike that wasn't ever going to be more than a spike buck.

:Grin:

Regarding the OP, if you’re wrong, you have my company.

Do those beget "decent" bucks?

I just shot an elk with the 6.5 creedmoore 1/12/19. I shot an antelope with it at the beginning of the season. I had a late season cow tag and wanted to try the 6.5 cm. The antelope was shot with the Hornady eldx and I thought it came apart to easy on the small animal. I used a Swift scirroco on the elk. It's dead but no reaction for quite a while 400 yard shot and no indication I hit it. Glad I was in the open instead of timber I will never use the 6.5 cm on elk again. Just my opinion. It kills them but not what I would consider a decent elk cartridge. I'm back to the 7 mag for elk killing. FYI the bullet entered just behind the shoulder and exited just in front of the off side diaphragm. Elk went about 50-75 yards but I thought I missed. No reaction. Glad I went to check for a blood trail. Very similar performance to a .223 on deer in my experience.

Here's Craig Boddington's take on the use of the 6.5 CM on big game, in a recent blog on Wholesale Hunter:

Overall Impressions… and Concerns

"The 6.5mm Creedmoor is a fine cartridge for medium-range work on deer-sized game, and it does its work with very mild recoil. I wish I’d performed a bit better when I joined the Creedmoor Club, but it wasn’t the cartridge and for sure I will use it again. However, the incredible hype surrounding the cartridge right now concerns me. It is not a dragon slayer, and as good as it is for long-range target shooting, it lacks both energy and bullet weight to be an ideal long-range hunting cartridge. At normal hunting ranges I am convinced it is not the equal of the .270 Winchester, and it is certainly not a .30-caliber. If I change my mind I’ll let you know!"

180* Different than my experience with a .223 on deer.

Craig Boddington ? You're killing me smalls

People sling an arrow and an animal is recovered within that distance, never complain. JS.

It may not flatten game, but kills them dead. If I want a solid WHACK and blood trail, I would use a 338, 358 with 225 grain, or a 9.3 with 250 or 286gr. Just me.

No perfect round for everything, but a good bullet thru vitals, does the deed w/o regard to what launches it.

I never liked Bodington until this, now I like him about the same as Mule Deer. If JB would write something about the 222 mag, he would be my favorite.

Hint...

Boddington........isn't he the expert that, up until a few short years ago, claimed that anything under .30 cal was inadequate for elk sized game because of the "lack of frontal area" provided by .284 class bullets? I couldn't take him seriously after that, even if he is an "expert". I also have a problem with anyone who files for bankruptcy and screws his creditors while continuing to hunt all over the world. I know that has little to do with caliber/cartridge selection but it says a whole lot about a guy's character.

Don't get me wrong, it killed the elk without a question. It's hanging in my shop right now and couldn't be any deader. I'm just saying I have shot what I consider a lot of elk (about 30-35) and been with friends and family on 3 times that many elk kills. . I didn't like the performance and I won't use it on elk again myself. If I'm hunting with a grandson or someone who needs a light recoiling rifle to borrow for elk, I will loan my 7mm08. I will keep the 6.5 cm for fun and antelope Use whatever works for you. In my opinion it's too light for elk where and how I hunt.

I was unaware he filed for bankruptcy. When was that?

You're bitching about an elk going 50-75 yds? You must usually shoot drugged elk. And maybe the problem is that you picked a "tough" bullet shot at fairly moderate velocity at an animal at a fairly long distance, and expected some lightning-bolt-kill, instead of a relatively small wound channel that efficiently put down the elk. Maybe you should have stuck with the ELD-X. Maybe you make the mistake that many make: that if a bullet comes apart on a smaller animal, it will DEFINITELY FAIL on a larger one. This is wrong. I don't know why so many who have killed so many animals still believe this.

Maybe you should take some accountability for your choices, for your own ignorance, instead of blaming a headstamp. JMO.

I am interested in this too. I'd be a bit dissappointed in the guy if this is true.

He does push the heavy hitters, which I disagree with. Maybe I should say I am more jealous of his travels and hunts than anything else...though I don't think I have ever read about one of his adventures being DIY...

Wow, you act like the guy just ran over your dog? He's just giving his opinion base on "his" experience.

"Use whatever works for you. In my opinion it's too light for elk where and how I hunt."

I have shot elk with 160 Partitions from a 7 mag, that had that same response. Sometimes it takes them a bit to figure out that they are dead, if you did not hit bone.

Court records show 2012-2014

I casually know Craig from the fishing lodge in BC where we both fish most years. Nice guy, served in the Marines, good writer, and knowledgeable gun guy. I know nothing about his personal life, but I do think he re-tooled spousal units a few years ago which may be the root cause of filing. Wouldn’t be the first time that happed to even a good guy....

Would that be about the time his daughter had the accident in Africa and shot a guy/tracker?

July 2013 Chapter 7. It was discussed over here......

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/cb-finance-debate-egg-recipes-etc.42879/page-2

[img]https://www.africahunting.com/attachments/screen-shot-2018-04-06-at-09-58-47-png.223999/[/img]

At the risk of piling on, I did see a custom rifle he ordered from a custom gun maker in Havre, Montana. It was a takedown, left handed action with high quality engraving and gold inlay. It also had Boddington's name inletted into the rifle with the rank of "General USMC" engraved on it. It was over $25,000.00 worth of rifle and work and Boddington never picked it up. It is hard to sell a highly embellished gun to someone who doesn't have the same name, rank and serial number...

I always thought deflave Precision specialized in the tactical stuff.

That's dissappointing. Calhoun?

I would question having his serial (did you mean service) number being engraved onto a rifle...as it is nothing more than his SSN.

Thanks JR...disappointing for sure. I would imagine there's more to the whole story that isn't being told...but it is still disappointing.

I didn't say they put his number on the gun, just that Name, Rank and Serial number is a reference to your identity that wouldn't transfer to someone else of a diffent name...

Gotcha...I think.

When I got drafted in 1969, I was issued a US prefix service number and then a few days later told to forget it and use my SSN. .cant recall the service number. Happy Trails

243 works nicely.

I've killed just as many dragons with the 6.5 as I have a .460 Weatherby.

While I would want a little more power, plants of elk have fallen to the creedmoor. Results speak for themselves.

Like every other cartridge, the 6.5 CM has its advantages and limitations. Depending on the shot opportunity, it is a better choice for elk than some other cartridges, not as good as others,

Many elk have fallen to 6mm and .257 chambers with what today would be judged as inferior bullet technology. Given today’s superior bullet technologies those chambers are so much better. Any non-magnum 6.5mm is more than capable with today’s bullet offerings. Don’t give it a second thought, hit right that elk is going down.

Short answer yes.

If it's me, I want all the advantage that I can get, well within reason that is. I've never been elk hunting, but I've seen them fairly close up. They're big animals. If I ever have the opportunity to hunt them I want at least a .30 caliber. I have a .30-06 and a .300 WBY. The .300 WBY would be my first choice. No way I will go bear hunting with a switch.

HEY doesn't Boddington hunt as a professional of sorts? I mean doesn't he write articles and evaluate hunting gear? That's his job. If I was bankrupt I surely wouldn't want to stop working. And there's lots of reasons or causes of Bankruptcy. I mean I don't know for sure, but he is still one of us, gun guy and hunter and all that. So I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If I find out later he's a scumbag, so be it. But the jury hasn't even been selected yet. Give him a break until you have firm proof of his piece of [bleep] ness. Jus' sayin'