I should be in Lodi during the day this coming Sunday. I am staying at the Best Western Country Inn. I will be at the range bright-eyed and bushy-tailed on Monday morning.

Who else is coming, time to sound off.

Denys

And I have a whole range of new excuses for you losers. (See the other thread here.)

Our crew hope to meet up at the range around 4 Sunday to pick up our packets. We've also got rooms at the Country Side Inn...

See you there!

I am coming in this Friday. See you guys there

Looking forward to letting you guys buy me a beer. I'm busy loading some ammo for my backup rifle. Thank the Loard for the RCBS Chargemaster.

Denys

Just back from Alaska.

Best of luck at Lodi and most of all, have a blast. Oh yeah have fun too! Grins!

Drag back some bling eh?

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I will bring my camera.

Denys

We will be rolling in on Sat. anyone know a good place to eat.

This is Wisconsin we are talking about. Their cuisine is famous for, err, huh, well, something. Probably pigs knuckles and cheese. Mapquest shows a couple of cafes on Corner Street; Luci's and Downtown's. There is also an Amoco station, I hope you like jerky.

Loading ammo all day today, heading out early tomorrow morning. Should get in to Lodi late Friday afternoon. IIRC we're staying at the Comfort Inn out by the freeway.

There is some little restaurant over on the edge of a lake that has pretty good food... sorry, don't remember the name - last time I was in Lodi (2008) was kind of a blur and not in a good way. The cheese curds were pretty good, though.

You probably mean Fitz's On The Lake.
http://www.fitzsrestaurantlakewisconsin.com/

BTW, The BW Contryside Inn is by the freeway also.

With Madison being a college town there's got to be a few good places to eat down there. Hopefully at least an Applebees

You boys driving in have a safe trip! Im looking at an 8 hour drive, thinking some of you have double that to look foward to...

Busy loading ammo as well in time for an early morning Sunday departure from Quantico to arrive at the Best Western Sunday evening. I grew up accross the lake and graduated from Madison 10 years ago so it'll be fun to show some of the out of town guys a couple of old haunts during the evenings.

Madison had some good places to eat some years ago, and had some pretty good clubs too... 20 something in a college town on weekends was interesting to say the least...

I was just up there last weekend shooting BPTR Creedmoor.

For my money, the best place to eat on Saturday is either Fitz's or "The Bridge". They are across the street from each other, just north of town about 3 miles.

The fish fry on Friday night at either of those places is what makes Wisconsin Wisconsin. Don't miss it.

BTW, the lucky target is #14. Although we did manage to break it on Saturday. It was repaired and working better than ever on Sunday, and it was damn sure the hot target.

Have fun, the range is in beautiful condition. I'm sure you will all have a great time.

Brent

I can't remember if I've ever been to Wisconsin; I think it's one of the few of the 57 states I have not visited. However, Mapquest shows Lodi to be in the middle of what is commonly refered to as "nowhere" and dozens of miles away from Madison. I am way past the age where I look forward to cavorting in college towns and night clubs are just not my thing and haven't been for several decades.

I am bringing this here laptop and the hotel does have Internet, one reason I am staying there. My laptop has a built-in blu-ray player and an 18 inch screen and if there is a Redbox in the area, I may just catch up on movies while posting pictures of the event on the Internet. Tasteful pictures, of course.

Pizza and beer at the Grumpy Troll brewpub in Mt. Horeb (45 min from Lodi) is worthwhile on the way in or out of Lodi if you are traveling Highway 151 towards or from Illinois/Iowa.

Looking at your profile, are you ubiquitous?

We will be driving via Mt. Horeb so recommendation duly noted.

I wish, but I have lived in all of those places enough to get resident hunting/fishing tags in them. I go a few other places too, esp. to shoot.

BTW, there is a nice collection of grills at the range and nice shelter there where you guys can team up and grill some burgers or chops or whatever in the evenings.

Anybody that wants to hire a kid to work the pits for you should call Karen L. She says that enough kids to cover all the registered shooters have signed up. Weather or not all will show up is an unknown. 8-9 am cst is a great time to call her.

Last I heard there wouldn't be any paid pullers...

I talked to her yesterday.

No clue how close Lodi is to Madison... Janesville wasn't that close either IIRC, but we were younger and traveled and drank while in school a bit.... Damn sure wouldn't waste time like that these days either!

Have a blast!

Jeff

Any Texans better bring parkas. Could be cold next week.

What are you expecting for temps... 70's?

You guys better expect rain - we got a bunch more than I expected, but we were all carrying rain gear.

I am not familiar with F-class shooting so if any of you happen to care to describe the match a bit, I'd appreciate it. How many shots per distance? How many relays? How much time per relay? Sighters? Do you shoot 1200 or just 800, 900, 1000? Or? I'm sure it is very different than what we do.

I don't know. What DO you do? Give us a frame of refenrece? Are you a ballet shooter?

Three matches at 600 yards Tuesday. Fifteen shots per match, unlimited sighters for match #1, match 2&3 are two sighters only. Wednesday and friday are the same format except both days are 1000 yard matches. Think the 600 'match is 17 minutes, have to check on the 1000 matches. You also get a 3 minute prep time to get set up on the firing line

We shoot NRA-BPTR Creedmoor. That is black-powder cartridge (or muzzleloading) rifles. Iron sights and .45 caliber rifles predominate though some .40s show up and a rare .50. There can be a scope class, but I don't think anyone brought one last weekend. The rifles are mostly replicas of Sharps, Winchester 85's Ballards, rolling blocks and the odd Borchardt or two. We fire three relays at each of three distances - 8, 9, 1000. Each relay is 35 minutes with unlimited sighters followed by 10 shots for record.

FWIW, I just calculate that I launched just over 9 lbs of lead/tin alloy last weekend.

Didn't carry a parka to Alaska the last two weeks, but then again it never got below the teens at night....

LOL Jeff. NOAA is forcasting some sun and lo to mid 70 high temps thru wednesday.

I am not familiar with that shooting discipline, but I have a great deal of respect for the long range black powder shooters. That is one of the few areas of shooting that has never held any attraction for me, black powder. But I am impressed by what those shooters can do.

I think you got a good idea of F-class from AJ300mag's post. I think the only flavor it might have lacked was an idea of the target size. The 600 and 1000 yard targets have X-rings of about 0.5 MOA, the 10-Ring is 1MOA and so on. I have no clue what the size of your targets is, but irrespective of that, I still think you guys are awesome.

In a 2-day match, such as TSRA, I would only propel about 3.5 pounds of jacketed lead to the target. I'll probably launch about 6 pounds or maybe a little more next week.

That's a lot more lead than I thought you would shoot in those matches given the tiny size of those mosquito bullets

Our targets are much larger. The x-ring is 10" or a little less than one MOA at 1000, and the 10-ring is 20".

We go get one luxury - the ability to shoot and then roll over to the scope and wait for the dust splash when the bullet arrives at the target about 3.5 seconds later.

It's all fun, that's for sure.

Ok, so you are using the standard LR-1 targets. Those rings are 4 times the size of the F-class rings in area.

My .308 bullets take a shade ove 1.6 seconds to get to 1000 yards. I get to see the target go down in my riflescope.

It is indeed a lot of fun.

Gosh, I didn't buy my winter wardrobe yet. Better get to the store before Saturday morning departure time.

Well, that's only fair! Our bullets are 4 times the size of yours

1.6 seconds? Longer than I thought.

At some ranges - mostly north facing ranges - we get to actually watch our bullets. Not the vapor trail, but the actual bullet. Of course, even those big rocks disappear about 1/2 way down the range as they become smaller in the distance. Still cool to see them arching along - 40 ft above the line of sight.

That's not riflery, that's artillery!

The apex of my .308 bullets' trajectory is about 8 feet or so for 1000 yards. The club to which I belong has its range facing north and we can see the trace, but not the bullets.

So, does your bullet actually punch the paper or does it stick to the target? What kind of velocity does your bullet have at the target? My MV is a shade under 2900FPS and my calculated velocity at the 1000 yard target is about 1550FPS.

I hope somebody on the forum wins the rest top and FClass base that I donated.
Butch

I'd love to win either, Butch! I've been an admirer of your products for a while now. And THANK YOU for stepping up and supporting our sport like this.

Forecast is for "rain" next week. What is "rain"? Being from Texas, I am not familiar with that atmospheric phenomenon.

I'm thinking a rain suit is in order here, and something to cover the shooting (not shopping) cart.

If everyone brings rain gear and a cart tarp, there will be no rain. Someone slipped up last weekend and we go soaked.

Good luck to all up there and enjoy the Friday Fish Fry special at "The Bridge" tonight.

That's the plan. Bring the rain gear, I mean. Not the Friday fish fry.

Oh, bad priorities there. Better take the fish fry. Hell Wisconsin on a Friday night w/o a fish fry, might as well be Texas!

I don't do Fish Fry, I do a mean salmon on a cedar plank, however.

cod & potato pancakes

Denys,
Do you throw away the plank or the salmon?
Butch

I eat the salmon and use the plank as a tooth pick.

Cod and potato pancakes? How horrid.

cod good. Potato pancakes, even better.

Safe travels!

Jeff

Would be a tough choice, deep fried cod&fries v/s barbecue...

heck bbq is a daily thing here.. no brainer on the cod... grins... Of course I don't much care for any bbq but what I make if I take the time, or what my best buddy does... snobs after you eat enough of it...

Probably same with fish, would roll my nose at cod by then..

Here our fish fry is best with river catfish, preferably 8-12 pound river yellow cats.... and homemade hushpuppies and potato salad....

Beer battered walleye...

Woohoo... made it here alive. Right around 24 hrs on the road from central Washington... ugh.

This week should be... interesting. Gave up on my intended weapon of choice, and switched to the back-up rifle - on Tuesday. Got enough ammo loaded for everything, including the WI state team match this weekend... but some of this stuff is of pretty questionable providence. Definitely pitching the lot of it in the recycle bin when I get home and starting over w/ new brass!

Glad you made it. We are leaving in the morning. I'm bringing two FTR rifles, just in case. I had lots of prepped brass for the backup, so I just fired up the Chargemaster and loaded like mad.

Good to hear you made it safely Monte! Go easy on the natives till we get there to cover your 6...

I have arrived at the Countryside Inn, using a canoe for the last 50 or so miles; there was water falling from the sky. I had not seen anything like that in years.

Looks like the Wisconsin state match was called early today on account of that falling water. I am now preparing my equipment for an early start tomorrow morning.

Denys

what the hell is falling water? Oh, thats like the level of our tanks... falling falling falling till there is no water left. Gotcha.

Jeff

Pretty good hail storm hit and they finally called the match...

They had completed match#1, were half through match#2 when they decided to quit. Sounds like more of the same weather for tomorrow.

Never saw any hail.

We were shooting along in match #1, have to shoot two blocks of 63 minutes because of the people who didn't have pit service. Finished the first 'block', just as it started raining. Plan was to take a break for 30 minutes or so during the pit change. Considering we started shooting early, that wasn't so bad. Except we didn't actually start shooting again until about 11 or 1130 (kept getting pushed back). Then it finally broke a little and we started shooting again. Then it started raining again. We shot the second block of the first stage, and then the first block of the second stage, and then they called for a cease fire again. By this point its like 1430 and they called the whole thing off because by now the targets are absolutely soaked and they don't want them ruined (delaminating or peeling apart) for the rest of the week.

Coming from the Pacific Northwest (even on the dry side of the mountains)... I think if there'd been less sniveling about getting wet and we'd just kept shooting we would have been done before it got really bad and the targets wouldn't have been soaked. But thats just me...

Still trying to figure out the whole entry fee vs. awards thing for that match.

It's 5:19AM and it's raining outside. Yuck.

Well, we got rained out this morning and the forecast is for more rain for the rest of the week. They did tech my rifle and it easily made weight.

I met Toodogs. Nice gentleman, he's camping on site and he did bring a raft.

Trevor60 was also there as part of the Canadian Contingent; they are all fine gentlemen also, even with their funny accents.

Also caught up with Monte, another nice gentleman and we talked bullets and ballistics for a while.

Still have not met Ian (VA), AJ300MAG and Mike (TacticalIntervention).

The range is soggy, windy and dark. I fear my old T-36 is going to be fairly dark. We shall see, or not.

Please stop. Connect to said wetness and start heading south ASAP, and do not loose that connection... I'll pay for all your missed entry fees if you can bring rain back and I"ll start loading your ammo for you... grins...

Enjoy as best you can. Once we'd shot so much, that it didn't matter at Perry, we got to the point if it was going to rain, we didn't shoot.... wasn't worth a wet leather coat, gear, wet gun and all just to fire a few rounds, lifes too short....

I'm kind of wondering the last time that scale got checked... I know my rig is considerably under the limit, but Earl had to lift the beam off the bottom to make sure because it wasn't even registering...

As mentioned, 20-40% chance of showers all week. Friday finally looks like decent weather (with 15-20 mph winds) for the rest of the weekend. Guess they should have left the dates the way they are supposed to be (Thursday 600, Friday 1000, Saturday team, Sunday 1000) rather than try to bump things up to accomodate that WI state team match...

I figure my stuff (and me) has gotten wet before, and will dry out again. I don't mind tearing everything apart to clean/de-rust-ify when I get home, but the match stopping/starting again bit drives me batty.

Denys I'll be on target #27, relay #3 tomorrow....

Good Luck, hopefully we'll be able to throw some lead downrange!

Roger that, AJ. I do not yet know my squadding.

I met Aj300MAG today, and we had a great time trading stories and talking about you.

Today was the 600yard match and it was a little tricky with the wind, the hailstorm and the tornado that blew through.

Tomorrow, we shoot the first part of the 1000 yard program.

Mike from Tactical Intervention has not been identified by us so far.

Denys

Was a pleasure to meet you and Pat! Had a great time talking to two gentlemen who hang out at the 'fire.

Now if only the weather cooperates today...

Kinda late to post, but best of luck on teh weather today

Today was much nicer than yesterday but the conditions were very tricky. I find that conditions can change VERY quickly here. Very quickly.

Here is a picture of the line. I'm the one with the white shirt.

Hmm... things I've not seen lately, green grass, corn, shooting...

Have fun!

How come there`s no slings???

I didn`t know you could shoot without one!

Man, that must be easy..

No sling? What part of "F-CLASS NATIONALS" escaped you?

Almost finished the team match today. They cancelled during the last relay due to water from above.

How about that wind? I shot a pretty low score at 1000 and felt bad until I saw all the other F-T/R scores from the first match. What team were you on today?

I was on Development Team #2, with Mike Miller. He's a super guy and a great shooter. I had an absolutely great time, including wind, rain, hail and meteorites.

denys, come to think of it in that photo it doesn't look at all like you in the white shirt. I don't see sweat pools and stains all over the place...

Tried to rain here again today... started 3 more fires is about all it did though...

Sick of seeing helo's and air tankers all the time by now.... 90th day of over 100, 157th day over 90.... 20 inches in the hole for rain plus... tanks about dry. Cows have no feed. lots of folks hay burned up literally 3 weeks ago....

have fun! Shooting has to be better than this even if you head up the low man pole.

Jeff, I hear you. Rain will come.

On the other hand, this was my first F-class nationals and I have to say, it has been an absolute blast. The level of competition if amazing, and I have had a great time meeting all the people here. I have learned a lot, and I still have a long way to go. I've had some flashes of brilliance, and some "duh" moments, but so far, I have not had the great "train wreck". The conditions have been, well, interesting and things are different here compared to Bayou. I am just amazed how quickly conditions can change hre. With no warning.

Tomorrow is the second part of the 1000 yard match and I am looking forward to it. Then on Saturday we start the long ride back to my beloved Texas, but I will remember Wisconsin fondly and when I miss it all I have to do is stick my feet in ice cold water and turn on a big fan to maximum.

Jeff, would LOVE to send this cr@ppy weather your way. I just got down to shoot my 1000 yard string when they called a cease fire Heck I'm already cold and wet, had to take my glasses to see. Give me eight minutes, and a good puller...

Yup, same here. Bummer. It is what it is.

Glad ya said good puller... I've shot with 22 minute plus pullers before... NOT a happy day.

Deny's you are making the most of it, glad to see that.

y'all is up north, someone drink a PBR on draft for me at least.... or another Alaskan Amber...

Dude... NO ONE drinks PBR!

Good bore cleaner though...

Yeah, I hear that, for some reason I like the flavor of it. Probably because I don't have it here ever.

They say some idiots drink Lone Star beer too I hear...

BTW I gave ya a choice! Grins.

Best of luck on Friday, hope the weather does something nice for a change.

I just chased my last fire of the day I hope... 4 hours this afternoon and we had 4 lightnening strike fires started.... ugh. Friday is dry dry dry and windy forecast... triple ugh.

I remember the old days when I was in the AF. You couldn't buy Coors in michigan. We'd fly to somewhere west, load a pallet of coors in our tanker for the return trip home. You could sell a six pack for $5, and help the guy by drinking half of it...

After talking to Denys, sounds like you guys have one heck of a range down there!

Above all, stay safe! Hopefully you'll get the rain you all need this fall and winter.

I'll have some snow trucked your way.

Deny's, I was on the FTR development team #1 coached by Dale Carpenter. It was a good time shooting for Dale. I bet I would have done terrible in this wind if I didn't have him calling the shots. Good luck in the 1000 yard individuals tomorrow.

Going to be interesting with how the referee rules tomorrow.

Heck, let the 4th team member shoot their string first thing in the morning... I'm ready

Agreed. But the officiating has been rather, interesting. I doubt they will do it. But I am ready also.

Yes it has!

Especially on artificial support rule. They banged them yesterday, not today???

anytime you get an inspector, errr I mean a ref involved, it can get interesting.... Gotta have em though. But should be like a robot, all trained the same etc....

Well, it's all done. Awards were handed out last night; congrats to all the winners. I had an absolute blast and I learned a lot. I will post a recap from my POV in the next few days. I start the long trek back to Texas this morning. Next weekend is TSRA Long Range and I have my ammo loaded, thankfully.

Denys

Next weekend is 2nd weekend of bow season here in TX. Where are your priorities. Oh yeah, you missed opener too... grins.

Glad you had a blast, look forward to the report!

Safe travels

Jeff

#1

I need better access to a 1000 Yard range...

Met a ton of great people! Denys, Pat,and Ian. All gentlemen. Got reaquainted with some old friends, made some new ones. I'm gonna switch my weather forecast app and use Monte's Tell you what, the Texans sure do know how to tell a jokes and Laura Perry is a sweetheart!

Great to meet you too Al. The whole experience was a lot of fun! It was something else to be surrounded by all of the talented shooters that I've been reading about online for the last couple years, and even better when you discover them to be truly gracious sportsmen/women.

Yes it was!

Match #1, relay #2, first day of the 1000 yard matches had Laura Perry on the target next to the one I fired on during relay #1, Jeff Rorer was on my target, John Chilton and Darrell Buell were also on the line at the time. I struggled with vertical during match #1, I watched relay #2 shoot and it was all 10's and "X"s. Those folks know how to pound em in!

Unless thats F class jargon, thats a hilarious target from teh pits! Jeff

We arrived at 1:00PM on Sunday after a grueling 1260 mile drive. Well, it wasn�t really grueling but it was long. We dropped our stuff off at the hotels and went to the range just in time to see the competitors for the Wisconsin State match drive away because the match had been called on account of rain.

On Monday morning we arrived early for the squadded practice. I picked up my packet and visited with some folks while waiting for the rain to end. At about 9:30 we were told to come back at noon and see if there would be a practice. I went back to my hotel and fell asleep. I woke up around noon, and saw that it was raining and fell back asleep. As it turns out, there was a short practice session and since I had my 600 and 1000 yards zeroes, I was just as happy letting somebody else have a go at it while I remained dry.

On Tuesday morning we assembled at the 600 yards line, introduced ourselves to the other relays on the target and then relay 5/6 went down to the pits. It was breezy but it was a nice day. My first string was a 144-7X and then I shot a 145-4X and in the afternoon I shot a 146-7X. This gave me a total of 435-18X for the day and 38 place overall. I felt good with my shooting, but I thought I had dropped more points than were due to conditions. I did feel good that in the third string I shot five Xs in a row; so my rifle and load were fine.

On Wednesday we gathered at the 1000 yard line and since it was my turn to be on relay 5/6, I went down to the pits first. The wind was pretty stiff but when it was my turn to shoot, I managed a 143-0 in my first string. The second string was pretty bad and I dropped 15 points and simply could not find the 10 or X rings. I had a series of 9s, but towards the end managed to get to 10s only to lose both to an 8 as the last shot for a 135-0. I had just dropped as many points in one match as I had dropped entire previous day. I did fairly well in the last string because I was able to detect the mirage dancing on the number boards and I kept track of the deteriorating conditions with that, I even got rained on as I was shooting. Not a big rain, but rain nonetheless (I�m using that as an excuse.) So I made up a little by shooting a 143-2 as my last string of the day, for a total of 421-2X. This kept me in 38th place overall.

On Thursday, I participated in the team match and I was in Mike Miller�s team. The rain was ferocious at first and the start kept getting delayed. At one point one of our team members called it quits and went away. We were a little shocked but since we had an assistant wind coach in training, Mike scrambled and got his equipment together and became our fourth. Of course, as soon as the other guy had quit, the skies cleared and the game was on. I had fired my blow out a few hours before and I knew that I was shooting low, or I thought I was, but since we had not shot on a target, I could not be sure. As it was my rifle, ammo and fingers were near freezing when we started to record and I only had two sighters. It took me a few more shots than that to get to proper temperature and elevation, but once that was done, Andy (our wind coach) did a great job talking me in to 10s and Xs. I shot a 190-4X. The 1000 yard portion was cancelled mid-way through when the wind picked up violently and the rain returned with a vengeance. We had had to stop several times during the day and that last squall just caused the match to be cancelled.

By Friday morning, I was tired of being cold, rained on, tossed around by the wind and I was grumpy. This time I was on relay 1/2 which means that I shot my first string early in the morning and then the last two, hours later in the afternoon. The wind was very stiff, but somehow I managed to ride the conditions and my first shot of the day was a 10. I almost decided to go for record right away, but decided instead to warm up the barrel. Good decision as my next shot was a low 8. After 4 sighters, I finally hit my X, and decided to go for record. My first two shots were 9s, and then I entered the zone and for the next 9 shots, I got five Xs and four 10s. At that point my scorer called out something, which I did not understand and I looked over and asked him to repeat. He said I was on shot 12. �The one I just fired?� �No, the one you just loaded.� I fell out of the zone. By the time I turned back to shoot, I had lost track of the flags and my hold and proceeded to shot two 8s and one 7 as shot 12, 13 and 14. I finally found the rhythm again and shot 15 was an X. I dropped 7 points in the last 4 shots. I was not happy with myself. That performance however was good enough for third place in Expert class (the largest one) for that relay. Then we went to the pits for the next several hours.

When we came out the conditions had changed and I had a sense of foreboding. When my turn finally came to shoot again, I simply could not follow the conditions and shot a horrible 134-0. Shortly after that, I shot my last relay of the match. It started off with two 10s then I shot a 9, then a 7 way left then and 8 way right and at that point, I more or less gave up, I just wanted to finish and be taken out of my misery. I started playing �chase the spotter,� shooting quickly, and managed to get two Xs but also collected a slew of 7s and 8s. I finished with a 131-2X for a day total of 406-X and a grand total of 1262-28X. This puts me in 40th position out of 61 shooters. I realize that I should have continued to fight for every point in the last match, but I don�t think I could have done much better. I was defeated by the conditions. However, listening to other shooters� tales of woe, my story was by no means unique. But that is little comfort.

I had a great time. I met a lot of people, some I had heard about but had not met previously, others I had chatted with on forums but not yet met in person and I also ran into a lot of old acquaintances. I am so glad I participated and even with my cheap semi-homemade FTR rifle, I still managed to shoot pretty good overall. I had a few flashes of shooting brilliance but more of the car crashes/train wrecks. I think my ammo is just about as good as it gets, and I actually talked with Warren Dean about my experiences with the 180gr JLK LBT. He was very glad to hear I was shooting it, but that�s a different story.

Monte Milanuk is a great guy and excellent shooter and I know some of you may not believe this, but he is opinionated. (I know, it was a shock to me too.) I like that! Pat (Toodogs) also has opinions and it was great talking with him. Al (AJ300MAG) is just a hoot to meet in person and he�s a great shooter. He can provide his results but he beat me. One of our other member here, my driving buddy to Lodi and back, Matt Davis, shot superbly and won grand aggregate for Master class in F-open. Another one of the Bayou Rifles contingent, but not a member here, Mark Walker, established a new National record of 150-12X at 1000 yards in F-Open.

Now, I am looking forward to TSRA LR next week at Bayou Rifles and Raton next year for Nationals.

I did notice that I am classified as HM for the aggregate results and that disturbs me. I am HM at mid-range, and we already discussed how that happened, but at LR I am classified as Expert. So, I guess they take the highest classification you have and that is what they use for the whole match? That doesn�t quite seem proper.

Howdy All. Amazing how a week away from the castle needs so much time to catch up on "things that must be done". Now that I'm kinda caught up thought I'd drop in to say hello.

First I've mailed my mid-range HM card back to NRA. Sure as heck did not earn it after the 600 stage at Lodi. Overall tournament results were #46 of 61 F-TR shooters. Sure were some great shooters there!

It was an honor to meet and talk with AJ300MAG, FTR, Ryan, Monte, and Trevor from the 24HCF. Excellent folks one and all.

Ryan, I went to your FClass site. The host has it in a parking spot, and has some, ah, uh, interesting links it suggests I visit. Sure hope those links weren't suggested via the hosts spies looking at cookies from my internet travels, LOL!

Below are results I swiped from a cloud somewhere:

Final Results for F-T/R: (F-Open to follow)

1 JEFF RORER TR HM 449-21 441-15 425-5 1315-41
2 JOHN H WEIL S TR MA 442-15 434-14 432-13 1308-42
3 LAURA PERRY W TR MA 446-20 437-13 424-6 1307-39
4 CHRIS OZOLINS P TR HM 445-21 436-9 424-4 1305-34
5 JOHN CHILTON TR MA 448-26 442-8 413-5 1303-39
6 DARRELL BUELL TR EX 445-23 438-19 417-7 1300-49
7 IAN KLEMM TR EX 444-16 443-20 413-7 1300-43
8 DANIEL POHLABEL S TR EX 445-23 436-13 415-7 1296-43
9 MARK HOUSEMAN TR MA 443-21 436-9 417-5 1296-35
10 MICHELLE GALLAGHER W TR MA 440-18 441-14 411-3 1292-35
11 JOHN HAYHURST TR MA 444-21 437-13 408-5 1289-39
12 PHILIP KELLEY TR EX 441-19 431-6 416-4 1288-29
13 DEREK RODGERS TR HM 443-16 434-11 410-4 1287-31
14 JAMES CROFTS TR HM 440-17 433-6 414-6 1287-29
15 SIERRA SCOTT W TR MA 442-13 434-10 411-1 1287-24
16 STAN PATE TR MA 446-19 428-11 412-10 1286-40
17 MICHAEL SMITH TR MA 437-18 441-10 408-1 1286-29
18 BRAD SAUVE TR MA 444-22 425-10 413-5 1282-37
19 DALE CARPENTER TR MA 439-16 424-7 419-11 1282-34
20 JAMES DIETLEIN S TR MA 442-20 429-10 411-3 1282-33
21 RAYMOND GROSS TR UN 436-13 422-8 422-6 1280-27
22 ALAN BARNHART TR HM 438-18 430-12 410-5 1278-35
23 LUIS ELJAIEK JR TR EX 436-9 426-12 415-4 1277-25
24 WARREN DEAN TR MA 434-13 425-5 417-7 1276-25
25 DONALD MIKE MILLER TR MA 436-9 427-10 413-6 1276-25
26 BOB LORENZ S TR MA 439-15 418-4 419-4 1276-23
27 TOM JONES TR MA 428-8 428-17 419-6 1275-31
28 PAUL PHILLIPS P TR MA 440-17 430-8 405-1 1275-26
29 JOSEPH CONLEY TR MA 440-19 432-10 402-3 1274-32
30 JOHN BARKLEY S TR MA 431-8 429-13 411-9 1271-30
31 JOHN M HARDY TR MA 441-13 422-5 408-3 1271-21
32 K BRYAN BEEM J TR EX 430-10 426-9 414-4 1270-23
33 AARON DUVALL TR EX 440-17 416-6 413-9 1269-32
34 MONTE MILANUK TR HM 437-16 425-8 407-3 1269-27
35 BILL WATTS TR UN 437-14 423-5 409-6 1269-25
36 ALEXANDER WALEWSKI TR MA 442-12 418-6 409-3 1269-21
37 GEORGE TREVOR MCMACKEN TR UN 434-11 422-3 412-2 1268-16
38 RABOSLAW CZUPRYNA TR UN 434-15 414-7 419-11 1267-33
39 TERRY PERKINS TR MA 440-18 416-7 408-7 1264-32
40 DENYS BEAUCHEMIN TR HM 435-18 421-2 406-8 1262-28
41 DAVID ZAFFKE TR HM 433-9 421-10 408-0 1262-19
42 EMIL KOVAN TR HM 436-18 418-7 407-6 1261-31
43 PAUL SCOTT TR MA 433-13 415-6 411-3 1259-22
44 RYAN COKERHAM TR MA 436-13 416-4 406-7 1258-24
45 JEFFREY CALHOON P TR EX 433-10 422-8 401-3 1256-21
46 PATRICK J CAMPBELL TR HM 432-9 413-7 399-3 1244-19
47 KENNETH ORRIS S TR EX 430-8 414-8 395-0 1239-16
48 STEPHEN WINSELMAN TR UN 427-8 419-5 391-3 1237-16
49 DANIEL P LENTZ TR EX 436-13 400-4 400-3 1236-20
50 FRANCIS X CONLON TR EX 429-12 407-2 400-1 1236-15
51 ROBERT R DEPP S TR EX 426-8 406-5 397-1 1229-14
52 STEPHEN SIRACUSA S TR MA 433-7 405-8 389-3 1227-18
53 RICKY BETHKE TR MK 434-13 413-4 378-3 1225-20
54 STEVE ROSSI S TR UN 410-7 415-8 395-9 1220-24
55 DENNIS GREEN S TR EX 431-11 391-5 394-3 1216-19
56 ERVIN MORSE SR TR EX 419-10 422-7 373-3 1214-20
57 GARY ATKINSON TR SS 419-4 401-4 385-3 1205-11
58 KURT KRUG S TR SS 424-7 364-2 353-2 1141-11
59 LANE VAN DE STEEG TR UN 394-6 372-5 373-3 1139-14
60 EMIL PRASLICK III SER TR EX 436-19 431-12 DNF 867-31
61 BRETT STARK TR UN 414-9 388-6 DNF 802-15


And now the F-Open results: Congratulations to Jim Murphy, F-Open National Champion

1 JIM MURPHY S O HM 444-25 447-21 440-9 1331-55
2 DON J NAGEL O HM 448-19 447-18 435-9 1330-46
3 DAVID GOSNELL 0 HM 448-25 445-24 436-12 1329-61
4 JOHN BREWER G O HM 449-27 447-23 432-12 1328-62
5 ROBERT BOCK S O HM 450-32 445-22 432-10 1327-64
6 RICK JENSEN O HM 447-27 446-22 433-13 1326-62
7 DAVID MANN O HM 447-21 448-21 431-15 1326-57
8 CHARLES BALLARD O HM 449-26 439-18 437-15 1325-59
9 DANNY J BIGGS G O HM 448-29 444-20 432-13 1324-62
10 BOB PASTOR O EX 450-23 438-15 436-9 1324-47
11 MARK WALKER O HM 447-23 440-19 436-11 1323-53
12 HERBERT EDWARDS O HM 449-19 441-19 432-14 1322-52
13 KEN DICKERMAN O HM 449-26 440-12 433-11 1322-49
14 LARRY BARTHOLOME G O HM 446-29 440-19 435-10 1321-58
15 GREG WOZNIAK O HM 449-18 438-14 434-11 1321-43
16 ROBERT SEBOLD O HM 448-30 437-14 435-11 1320-55
17 RON G HERMS G O HM 448-24 443-16 429-6 1320-46
18 RYAN PIERCE O HM 446-18 439-11 434-12 1319-41
19 FREDDY HALTOM O HM 447-20 440-19 431-10 1318-49
20 BUDDY REICH O HM 448-19 444-14 426-9 1318-42
21 MATHEW DAVIS O MA 443-16 442-19 432-11 1317-46
22 DEAN MORRIS O HM 448-27 444-20 424-13 1316-60
23 BEN WINGET O HM 446-27 439-13 431-10 1316-50
24 BRYAN CHATWELL O MA 447-20 439-17 430-10 1316-47
25 WILLIAM WITTMAN S O HM 445-21 443-17 427-8 1315-46
26 GORDON OGG O UN 442-16 437-18 435-9 1314-43
27 JOHN DUNBAR O MA 444-18 437-10 432-9 1313-37
28 JOHN MYERS O HM 446-24 445-22 421-5 1312-51
29 CHARLES F CLARK O UN 437-14 442-15 433-11 1312-40
30 STEVEN ZOCK O MA 446-21 436-10 430-9 1312-40
31 DAVID BAILEY O HM 444-23 442-17 424-11 1310-51
32 JOHN CAMPBELL S O EX 445-21 433-10 432-13 1310-44
33 DENNIS WELKER S O EX 443-18 435-13 432-10 1310-41
34 GEORGE TONY ROBERTSON S O MA 444-28 443-17 422-9 1309-54
35 ANDY AMBER S O MA 445-24 437-18 427-7 1309-49
36 ADAM SHIDLA O HM 448-29 433-10 428-6 1309-45
37 BRET A SOLOMON O HM 443-22 441-17 425-6 1309-45
38 JIM SEE O EX 444-20 429-11 436-14 1309-45
39 BRUCE CONDIE O EX 444-21 434-13 431-11 1309-45
40 JEFF BLAKE O HM 446-23 435-16 425-7 1306-46
41 SHIRAZ BALOLIA O HM 443-17 438-16 425-5 1306-38
42 GARY CHILDS S P HM 448-22 433-11 423-6 1304-39
43 MIKE JAKUBCZAK O HM 442-19 436-14 425-8 1303-41
44 JEFF COCHRAN O HM 442-21 429-11 429-8 1300-40
45 JOHN GAINES G O MA 442-18 435-11 423-7 1300-36
46 BUD WILLIAMS S O SS 434-11 438-12 427-10 1299-33
47 JIM SOKOLOWSKI O MA 444-22 427-11 427-5 1298-38
48 DAVID CONRATH TR MA 437-16 433-11 428-9 1298-36
49 JIM FOWLER O HM 447-21 433-9 417-5 1297-35
50 GREG WAHLSTROM S O UN 438-23 429-14 429-9 1296-46
51 MARK IWANOCHKO O UN 436-16 430-10 428-8 1294-34
52 EARL LIEBETRAU G O HM 446-18 426-12 421-5 1293-35
53 WILLIAM LARSON S O EX 437-13 434-10 422-8 1293-31
54 SHAWN AHRENS O HM 443-14 429-9 421-6 1293-29
55 DAVID DECAREAUX O HM 442-23 435-9 415-10 1292-42
56 KEVIN BEEM O HM 447-27 435-13 407-3 1289-43
57 CHAD RANKIN O UN 443-20 430-9 415-8 1288-37
58 WALTER LANGE S O HM 438-10 426-6 421-7 1285-23
59 ROD VIGSTOL O UN 437-13 425-5 422-6 1284-24
60 BRADLEY RICHARDS O EX 437-16 429-12 417-3 1283-31
61 SCOTT FLECK O EX 441-14 426-10 416-7 1283-31
62 GARY EVANS O MA 436-11 427-6 420-7 1283-24
63 WADE RANKIN O UN 445-16 422-13 415-7 1282-36
64 MIKE WARNER O UN 434-12 432-9 416-6 1282-27
65 WAYNE STEARNS S O HM 421-16 438-17 421-11 1280-44
66 BILL GRAVATT MA 435-9 427-11 409-3 1271-23
67 MICHAEL HINRICHS O EX 426-3 433-8 412-6 1271-17
68 RUSSELL BROWN G O MA 436-10 418-8 416-6 1270-24
69 KEITH RINGELSTETTER O SS 439-15 415-8 413-4 1267-27
70 TODD HOUSE O SS 420-6 423-5 424-8 1267-19
71 EMANUELE CHIP CHIAPPINELLI S O MA 429-8 426-8 408-6 1263-22
72 KENNETH H KLEMM S O SS 432-13 421-7 408-6 1261-26
73 STANLEY RODGERS S SS 439-17 419-7 395-8 1253-32
74 RITA NASH W O SS 428-9 409-8 412-5 1249-22
75 RICHARD KING S O MA 435-14 411-10 401-3 1247-27
76 DENNIS STEINKE S O EX 439-16 407-7 399-2 1245-25
77 HERB MCCLANNAN S O EX 441-21 412-7 391-5 1244-33
78 KENNETH LIEBETRAU S O EX 435-11 415-4 394-6 1244-21
79 ALAN CANAVAN G O UN 427-13 412-3 405-4 1244-20
80 PAUL GRAVES O MK 425-11 409-4 409-2 1243-17
81 NORMAN LARSON G O EX 441-12 385-8 415-6 1241-26
82 KEVIN KING O HM 432-10 407-3 397-3 1236-16
83 GARY PANZER O MA 428-11 399-3 406-4 1233-18
84 GARY LAVALLEY O MA 423-7 409-1 398-2 1230-10
85 AMBER GARTMANN W O SS 395-0 379-4 381-2 1155-6
86 BRENDA LAVALLEY W O EX 401-3 384-1 353-0 1138-4
87 BRYAN OTEY O HM 438-15 428-9 DNF 866-24
88 JOHN PERKINS O UN 431-11 404-2 DNF 835-13
89 DANIEL MULLER O UN DNF 426-5 DNF 426-5
90 CORIE MCKIBBEN W O UN DNF DNF 394-4 394-4

TooDogs,
I'll have to see what the links are all about. I didn't notice that.

It was great to meet you and the other guys from the forum. I was amazed how down to earth all of the big name shooters were. I made some good friends and ended up coming home with a silver medal for the team event. I'm going to try to make it back to Lodi in June for the Palma Championship. The Liebetrau family and all of the friendly locals make it a great place to shoot.

Thats from one of the last relays of the last day... someone from the line called down fussing that someone had a scoring disc on their target during prep. The pit officer joked about putting a bunch on it and running it up. By that point I was feeling ornery (kind of a bad week for me) so I took the ball and ran with it. We grabbed all the scoring discs nearby and stuck em on there and ran it back up. Not a peep from the line...

I was not impressed with the whole team match thing... probably best if I just leave it at that.

It was good meeting folks and putting faces to names finally... even if Al did get me in trouble with Bob

See attached for a couple more pics. One is a shot down the 1000yd line (think I'm the third one in from the end with the black shooting box), the other is a picture of a bunch of the folks shooting Savage rifles of one form or another. Mostly F/TR, but a few F/Open guys too.

I was a little disappointed the 1000 yard team match got cancelled on account of a passing rain cloud. Ok, I was greatly disapointed. But what can you do?

It was my first time shooting in a team match with a wind coach and I found it interesting. Andy guided me to some good hits after I cleared my elevation issues, but there were a couple bad calls. Mike had explained to us to not contradict the coach and to just do as he indicated. And that just plain makes a lot of sense. As long as I could say that I shot where he told me to, he was the one driving and doing the corrections. I was just a trigger pawn in the game of shooting.

And to be honest, the conditions were so difficult for this old man, I was happy to just concentrate on aiming and trigger pulling.

Never deviate from the coach.. except when the coach sucks... BTDT. Unfortunately.

There are coaches I'd blindly trust forever.... and a few around I'll never trust again.

Well, as I said, this was a coach in training and the conditions were atrocious. The team scores were fairly low overall, so I am not faulting him at all. If I had had my elevation set properly from the get go, I would have done better because I did lose points to elevation, it's a heartbreaker when you shoot at 6 o'clock. Those were definitely my fault. But once I got that sorted out, things went swimmingly. My elevation issue is that I put on the Bayou 600 yard zero after the prior day's 1000 yard match. I forgot that I needed an extra MOA in Lodi to account for the denser air due to cold and low humidity. Once I remembered that, I was back on.

Team Matches...

I looked at the radar before leaving for the range Thursday morning. Couldn't see anything that would lead me to believe (short of divine intervention) that there was a chance for that stuff to clear out during the day. With a 40% chance of rain I figured we were going to get wet. We should have gotten started precisely at 8:00am, and I believe I voiced my opinion rather loudly (had to be a little careful, there were women squaded next to us). There was no reason to delay the start, we had at that time the weather we would see at 9:00, at 10:00, at 10:30 and what we had when we finally got going...

If we started on time we would have been finished BEFORE that little rain squall hit durring the last relay.

That was my first team match also. We've all shot togeather in local matches and are comfortable working togeather. Monte, I'm gonna get Bob at the next match... that instigating son of a gun . Don't have a clue as to what he's got me into this time, paybacks are a _ _ _ _ _. So anyways I trusted our coach. We shot at a mid-range match this year when the other Al was on the same relay and target next to me. I shot a mid 190's, Al shot a 200-15X. He knows how to call the wind. He did miss a let-up though on me, shot hit within an inch of my POA. Problem was the shot was a "9" at 9:00. I told him I'm going back to center, pounded out a 10 and an X to finish out. I finished the 600 yard match with a 196-10X, best score of our foursome...

Deny's

One thing I"ve noticed reading all your posts for quite some time now, you are a better shooter than you give yourself credit for and as a result of you thinking you are worse, you don't correct fast enough IMHO.

IE shot call is solid, then if the first shot lands low or high I"m correcting right then. Granted I may not make a full correction but more like a 3/4 or so IE if I correct X amount, and am wrong I"ll get a high 10 type of thing... but I don't wait anymore.

The best thing about shooting, you continually learn.

Jeff

AJ
I don't mind a coach missing conditions as much as I hate coaches that don't listen to your shot calls. When I shot a lot, I could call the shot REALLY close, even though it was service rifle irons... I could usually call it within 2 inches at 600 yards as an average... when the coach doesn't listen, and you repeat the call, and the NEXT shooter looses points... thats what aggravates me.

I"ll be the wind pig/dummy every time, doesn't bother me but if you are ignoring my input why should I listen to yours kind of thing..

Jeff

Back to living.

Had a great time shooting and meeting a bunch of you. FTR Shooter great meeting you.

Had Flu but good meds, and spent most time trying to remember where I was, LOL

My rifle shot great. Me as Darrel says "Not so much"

On Team Matches. I put together two teams for development of both shooters and coaches. The first team were guys who signed up months ago and that team had Carpenter from our US National F TR Team. Carpenter is about as good a wind coach as anyone will ever see.

Team Two was put together at event and had Andy, who is from the US Junior National Palma Team. He is a great Young Man and excellent wind coach. He beat many highly experienced wind coaches at 1000 yards. I would be happy to have him coach again. I bet he ends up being one of the best in game in years to come.

Overall we got to see some fantastic shooting under terrible conditions.

It was an honor to be there.

On wind calls we where having constant wind changes. One second four minutes and next 0. One more second three minutes. It just did no have a constant you could dial most of the time

I did miss one call myself...

If the shot broke clean I just said "good". Had a shot that went left, called it a 9 at 9:00. Target came up, X at 9:00. Sometimes the wind is your friend!

Mike, I will have to agree with you on that team match. We did have to scramble to get the team reconstituted just a few minutes before we started shooting and it was as much a surprise to Andy as it was to you, perhaps even more so. I know he was not expecting to be THE wind coach right away. I was the first shooter and my early elevation issues were disconcerting to both of us. But once that was fixed, we performed well as he became acclimated to the conditions.

And following your explicit directions I held exactly where he told me to and I tried to get the shot off within 2-3 seconds of his call.

Having never fired coached team match before, I was unsure of the protocol and he was using different words than what you had told me you would be using. He also pointed out that the targets were very small, which almost caused me to laugh on the line.

I would let him wind coach me again.

Oh, and it was great meeting you as well. Overall, I was very happy to be there and I know I learned a lot. I am really looking forward to TSRA LR this coming weekend.

Apart from continually mispelling my name (what's with the apostrophe?) I think you may have something there. If my first shot goes somewhere on the target, I should make a full correction for that shot instead of second guessing my shooting. I can see where that seems to be a recurring theme with me. Something to ponder. I just consider myself a guy who likes to shoot in matches, perhaps I need to starting thinking that I am a match shooter who needs to perform at his level consistently.

Hmmmm.

I think some of that comes from holding off for a shot... and it goes exactly where your POA was. You want me to hold in the 8 ring???

I'll admit I had a brain fart during the matches. I use my retical to judge corrections. I'd dial in what I THOUGHT was the correct windage, POI would move only half the value. The windage marks on the Nightforce retical is 2MOA dummy, not 1MOA

Ok, my bad on the spelling, once I get something locked in my head I'm that way and usually typing on the run anyway vs sitting down and thinking a reply through very well.

You got it. Denys. Just doesn't look right to me. But I could be typing Dennys...

Some days its the little things that you catch that you try to do differently that make a huge difference in the end. Just trying to be helpful, nothing more.

Jeff

Trust me, you are very helpful.

Here is another picture from the 1000 yard line. We are in the 3 minute prep period. That is me in the white shirt with my scorer behind me in the Sinclair shirt.

Ouch, I've always heard of Lodi... that range could really get squirrely winds if they got to gusting, much weird terrain there to make it interesting to say the least.

Whats that green stuff you are laying on?

Astroturf.

The wind was coming from the right most of the time, but on Friday, it was "blowing" from 1 to 2 o'clock. Also there is a big-ass depression 600-700 yards downrange.

Here's the range from a slightly different angle. You can sort of see the ditch at 600-700 yards downrange.

Thats hilarious... astroturf...

I thought it looked like there should be a creek there somewhere.

Range kinda reminds me somewhat of Knoxville TN range, I can't think of the correct name for it though...

VRPC?

Don't think its that, maybe something akin to the nuke in the area...

I think its Oakridge now that I think about it.

Oh yeah, I heard that TX astroturf now comes only in brown...

ORSA
http://www.orsaonline.org/index.htm

Here is another view of the line during prep time.

Hi All

Made it back without incident. I met a few people Deny, TOODOG, Monte and Mike all were really friendly and a pleasure to chat with sorry i did not introduce myself to AJ300MAG. Hey RyanJay were u wearing the Midway USA team shirt. I spoke with u a few times but didn't realize you were a forum member.

As to the event itself lets just say it was interesting. The weather sucked and I can get that kind of weather at home. It was fun shooting although the unexplained vertical was exciting. after awhile you stopped adjusting for the vertical or else you would yoo-yoo up and down.

Like others i have no comment regarding the delays or cancelations of matches. it is what it is.

as this was my first time string shooting and shooting in the US I found some big differences and things I can takeaway and learn from for next time.

I thought TOODOGS stock was kinda cool and i wish i could have tried it.

I hope the guy that flattened the bipod made good and covered any costs in repairing it.

Trevor

Trevor, glad you made it back home safe. It was great meeting you and the rest of the Canadian Contingent.

I think the only one I did not meet, or recognise as a Forum Member is Ryanjay.

Denys

Here is another picture of the line.

"Slings" was a funny..sorry.

With the exception of a paved road road to the pits, the range hasn`t changed much sence I last shot there.
Tricky conditions, eh?

Friggin' cold. Friggin' mountain. Friggin' rain. Friggin' wind.

I had a great time.

Welcome to "Up Nort".

Glad to hear you had a fun time.

Well, this weekend, I should be at TSRA in more normal weather. Well, for Texas anyway.

Normal? what, 90s and 40% chance of rain? Actually I don't think y'all have that rain chance thats in the forecast for up here though.

So, some of those reasons for not shooting well will....evaporate?


Good Luck

Ah! I have a veritable shipload of ready-made excuses. See the other thread here.

The bottom line is that I am not a very good shooter. I just can't seem to do "my part" whereas my rifle/load will shoot like a house afire, sub-MOA to 2000 yards, all day long. Yadah, yadah.

No excuse for poor performance.

FTR, you are a very good shooter but here is the whole truth. The shooting game at top is cyclic, with one guy being unvbeatable today and another tomorrow. Your usual is to shoot in heat with heavy mirage. Lodi is the opposite of that. Wait until Raton and I bet you do far better.

Mike says same as.... you have to learn each range. That was always my take on it. And carry primed brass and loading stuff just in case.

Jeff

Mike, I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. Not only that, but Jeff has been saying the same thing.

I do look forward to Raton, but I have several matches between now and then. I experienced an awful lot at Lodi, (don't want to say that I learned anything, - I am a slow learner,) so I will see if I can put some of that experience to good use soon.

This shooting thing is a mental game too, isn't it.

mental? I used to figure it the other way, but IMHO its more like 10% shooting, 90% between the ears. Probably indicates why I never was very good at it.

I don't think it's intelligence, more like stability or self-control. Or perhaps just focus on the task at hand, mental discipline. It's definitely not about raw IQ, or I would not be able to even pull the trigger.

(Ok, I'm exaggerating here; I think I have enough brains to point the rifle in the right direction. More or less.)

To be honest, sometimes, I think I overthink stuff and that gets me in trouble. I believe that following and calling conditions is more of an art than a science and that may be my issue. I am first and foremost a scientist, definitely not an artist.

Oh I don' t know that I said the word intelligence now did I?

I think its MUCH more about thought processing, AND being non ADD basically to coin the worlds favorite medical term it seems. Its about keeping it in the subconscious and letting it work and flow for you. And being able to block out all the rest of the world at that time and it be literally, one shot at a time and between you and you and no one else.

Art form. Yeah, I kinda can go with that term too.

I used to analyze, over analyze and so on to an extent too. Not nearly as intelligent as you are Denys, but enough so that it got me in trouble.

Its why you see me say sometimes, you shoot better than you score. IE you have another problem IE gear. Or method etc... or making sure you shoot three in the 7 ring before you attempt to adjust hold/sights.
It's also why a chrono is a somewhat useless piece of equipment, the thing that tells teh tale is the paper. Holes in that paper. Same amount you shoot in a string at the same distance. The chrono can give you ideas, but as I've said it also can LIE. Given some of the smallest ES/SDs I've ever seen over my Oehler, those typically are some groups that are absolutely worthless on the paper. You get all excited till you see the holes... and the WTF.

The results you see on the range are what you are after, not the theoretical results.

Take the stress level/thinking level down a notch, take the enjoyment up a notch and watch the scores creep up IMHO. And while you are doing that, you tend to learn things that mean all in where the hole in the paper ends up.

BUT don't ignore the weird shots. At least not when not in the nationals or regionals or such. Winning a match is one thing. Winning most is what you are after. You get there by shooting practice matches IE Bayou weekenders, and stopping to figure out WTF did that one slip out as an 8... I don't see why. Then you figure out WHY, WHERE etc... and so while you "loose" that match, you also learn how to win the next one that way.

Of course dry firing can never be ignored and if you can't break 17 or 22 or for me it was 25 plus basically PERFECT shots, all called inside the X ring, then you don't have the mechanics down right yet. If you are shooting bad shots, then the conditions just don't matter until you learn to shoot all perfect shots basically.

Yeah yeah, no one shoots em all perfect, but you really strive to shoot most of them X calls or better. That lessens the effects of the conditions so to speak.

And yeah, even F with a scope, I'd be dry firing my tail off.

One of the better shooters said he had to wait 12 some odd minutes for a condition to change to his favor. Spent his time dry firing and so forth. He observed that when clouds were passing overhead wind was more gusty and confused. After clouds passed winds became more stable, consistent. Then he shot fast.

I learned from my conversation with him. It's not just understanding what the flags or mirage are saying. The best shooters are looking at the whole picture.

Yep, I've often waited it out to start shooting OR have known that it was super as the targets came up and started slamming it as quick as I could.

It is definitely a whole picture kind of thing. And in reality, shooting is only a tiny part of it.

After I have input all the scores in my tracking spreadsheet, I find that you guys are right.

In MR, I am classified as a high master and for the 600 yard course, I fired 1% below an HM score. In LR, I am classified as an expert and for the first day at 1000, I shot .5% below an expert score. The first and third string very decent, well within expert territory. The second string is what sank me. The second day at 1000 was pitiful, but it was that way for a lot of people.

I'm thinking the guys that win the big matches perform to their level and a bit beyond. And on very bad days, it's not so much who shoots the best, it's more like who screws up the least.

I am looking forward to this weekend.

Looks like the same for me. I thought I should have done better at 1000 yards.
Though if you take the 15 shot scores and run them out to a 20 round score plus a little fudge factor I shot better at Lodi than in any match I shot at Camp Grayling this season. Lodi winds aren't anything like we see at Grayling. So between the fact that I set a new national record this year and did better at this year's nationals than the last one I attended it hasn't been a bad year.

Good luck this weekend Denys!

Thanks, Al. I'm pumped.

on bad days its a given you'll screw up. Its who does it least that wins. Thats a totally different mindset than a better day. And you have to approach it mentally differently, and with a different strategy, save points, be safe, accept a safe 9 instead of trying for center X and loosing a 7......

1000 can be a sorta cake walk at some ranges, and at others a pure hold onto it, disaster.

Its only a shame you were never able to fire 1000 at Camp Bullis in SA.... thats the weirdest range at 1000 that I ever fired on, for slung up with the keller target I can recall firing back to back Xs with double digit correction moa wise on one direction, then the other..... something like 25 ish MOA change between shots. Pure fluke that the guess was correct to, I claim no expertise.

The first things you conquer of course is perfect gear and perfect shot performance, and then from then on your learning curve, IMHO, is to shoot in the most varying conditions you can find... IE as I've said, the local matches are not so much that you win, but htat you are practicing, guessing, learning etc...

Having shot Lodi many times but only with BPCR it is interesting to listed you the stories you guys have. Certainly, you must have had some really atypical conditions at Lodi relative to what I usually see there.

It would be a bit easier to relate to what you guys were doing if someone could provide a ball-park Ballistic Coefficient, velocity and bullet weight for a typical contending load, along with the x-ring diameter so I calculate what you guys experience vs what I have to contend with.

You speak the truth, Lagrangian dweller.

I seem to always question my rifle and ammo, thinking it simply can't be up to the task when I look around at all the other fancy (read pricey) gear that other competitors use. Then when I shoot 5 Xs in a row at 600 yards, I simply must eliminate this reticence to truly believe in my equipment.

As I said earlier, I am pumped up for this weekend's match. Thanks.

I shoot a .308 Winchester cartridge topped with a 180gr bullet with a calculated G7 BC of .294. The marketing G1 BC is .575.

Using a certain amount of Varget powder in a Lapua case, my 32 inch barrel is able to propel this bullet at an initial velocity just shy of 2900 FPS. About 1.5 seconds later after going up about 8 feet over the sight line, the bullet comes back down to punch the paper at a velocity of about 1500FPS, give or take depending on humidity and temperature, and elevation also.

On the paper, the concentric rings start of with a 5-inch X-ring, then a 10 inch 10-ring, a 20 inch 9-ring, a 30 inch 8-ring, a 44 inch 7-ring and a 60 inch 6-ring. If you are outside the 6 ring but still on the 6 foot by 6 foot target, you get 5 points.

A regular F-class match will require you to shoot either 15 or 20 consecutive shots for record after either 2 or an unlimited amount of sighters. Out of a possible 1350 points, I scored 1262 with 28 Xs. I had no misses, no cross-fires and no 5s or 6s for the entire 135 shots for record (or any of the sighters either.)

FTR, thanks. Your bullets have roughly 62.2% of the wind drift that my bullets do, and your target rings are roughly 1/2 the diameter of ours. In a 30 shot match (10 at 800, 900, 1000 with unlimited sighters) the best I have done at Lodi (in the rain, of course) is 278-5x which is about 92.7% and that compares pretty well with your 93.5%.

So, they scale about the same. We have a 40 ft rise above sight line, terminal velocity of about 840 fps, and a 3.5 second flight time. Lots and lots of time to get worried about whether I shot at the correct target, broke it on center, and so forth.

We shoot irons of course, but not sure that really matters a whole lot.

Half the diameter is one quarter the target area.

The rifle scope helps to be surgical on these small targets and enables these old(ish) eyes to actually see the target and the reticle.

Yes, I understand the area/diameter relationship, but I"m interested in simply wind effects which are, for the most part, left/right.

In my opinion, and the limited amount of scope shooting that I do, the advantage to a highpower scope is the ability to shade shots faster than on can crank sight knobs while still seeing the mirage.

Denys

Too many fires here again that I get involved in... so if I don't get to say it later... good luck on the weekend!!! Have fun and enjoy it all! Learn a bit along the way.

Don't question your gear or yourself so much, you are better than you think you are. And thats part of the battle too... you sorta gotta become arrogant to a certain extent in your mind and go get em!

Jeff

Brent, we had so much unexplained vertical issues at Lodi, I had to throw that in.

It's one thing to shoot a 7 at 9 o'clock, but it's a real pisser when you finally conquer the wind and throw it high or low.

Most times that would be the shooter, but when you look across the line and see lots of others shooting high or low, there's something else going on.

Yes, the scope does allow the shooter to hold off on the target. That's what I do all the time. Well, most of the time. I did break Denys' rule #1 "don't mess with the scope knobs when shooting for record," and I bought an 8 because I turned the scope the wrong way. That was during the team match at 600 yards. (I'm old and my mind is leaving me, that's my explanation.)

Gotcha. Don't talk to me because I can shoot sub-MOA all the way to 1000 yards, all day long.


This explains why the top athletes are usually arrogant; they actually believe it. It may not be arrogance so much as confidence.

I understand about the unexplained verticals. They are a real buggaboo for all of us. I have my hypotheses, but they are not terribly robust. I am sure it not as simple as the head/tailwind components to the wind. This fall, the first day at 800, I shot 7 tens and Xs, but then had two 8s at 6 o'olock. I didn't believe the first one, so I did it again - 2 inches from the first. Cranked the elevation and shot a final X. Yes, the verticals are miserable.

Shading with irons is nigh impossible in my opinion, but I have watched one guy from Idaho do it very well. Although he was older than me, I would be willing to bet he has awesome eyesight.

Brent

My current hypothesis has to do with terrain features and how wind is affected by them. At Bayou Rifles, the range is oriented due North. When the North wind blows stuff, it comes across various berms and gullies and I think it creates updrafts and downdrafts, which cannot be detected in the scope. When the wind is from the South, it just gets worse because I think the firing line cover is now in play.

At Lodi, the wind was coming around the montain from 1 and 2 o'clock. There are many berms and a large gully 600 yards down range. I think all these terrain features come in play.

FTR, we are on the same page then. I add to that the possible effect that turbulent wind blowing over the tree tops creates a downdraft the whole length of the alley way.

I don't worry so much about the low area But then my bullets are so high to start with, it may simply affect them much less.

Brent

Denys, yes on the arrogance thing and I do know you have to be positive and that comes across as arrogance to many... the top folks did seem that way to me too as an MK shooter... I slowly learned they were great folks, they just simply expected to win so to speak.
IMHO there are 3 things that can cause hi/low shots besides the shooter. I'm sure I"m far from correct though.
1 Wind and terrain features for sure.
2 Barrel heat( on my AR15s my DATA book showed a clear trend towards moving elevation on the sights around shot 13 to continue to stay centered)
3 Mirage can be tied to vertical and if you have no way of knowing or seeing it, it can really kill you. It may have a diagonal or vertical effect.

Even though I"m sure I"m missing something, I feel that I may have part of the reasons. I am sure there are other reasons. Besides shooter error.

Bottom line once again, arrogance comes into play. Is your load/equipment right? IF so, then did you call the shot high or low? If not, IE if its off call vertically and everything else was right, there is no need to shoot a verification 8....
I won't lie though, I may be too scared to make full to center X correction but I will always correct it to where I catch a 10... and if still that direction the following shot is tweaked to the center X if possible.

Oh yeah.. one other thing... there have been many times when I've been blowing right along... only to see something I don't understand at all... While I want to finish quickly, I have found that risking a shot when I see or think I see something that I don't understand, there is at least a 50/50 chance I'll screw up teh shot...

I tended to hold until the arrogance/confidence was back and start up again. I was dealing with a broader target than you guys do, but I felt that once I'd had a few rounds downrange I kinda had a feel for the conditions and could risk the downtime without a sighter to spare so to speak.

But that brings up another thing... shoot one sighter known condition,and if good, then wait it out till you see a change, guess the change, shoot it the same and see the impact just to verify... what you thought would give you a mid ring 9, just gave you that... or a 10 or a 7... without ever favoring or touching the knobs... twas good info for the mainframe computer analysis.

On the top guys (and gals) being great folk; I agree completely. I've never detected a hint of condescention talking with them about the discipline. They were always free with information and help, especially the older ones.

Barrel heat is not much on an issue with my truck-axle barrels.

I agree with Brent that the tree line contributes to the unexpected effects.

I am very much used to mirage, shooting at Bayou. I have yet to see it go down, and I try not to shoot in a boil. At Lodi, I was only able to use the mirage once in 9 strings. On the second day, I detected it dancing on the number boards and I was able to use it. It saved me from a couple of quick reverses and I did pretty good on that string. On Friday, there was no mirage, only lying wind flags in the afternoon.

Lying wind flags are what Lodi is most famous for (after rain and great fish fries). When you can see it at Lodi, mirage beats wind flags everytime in my experience. But I have shot my best score when there was no mirage to see. Just happened to be a more consistent day, and everyone shot well on that day.

And I too, have never seen mirage go down or even slow the vertical enough to seemingly be able to account for the verticals.

Since my bullets are so much higher in the sky than yours, I tend to watch the mirage up higher, at the top of the target or even the top of the number boards as my bullets spend more time up there.

every range has lying flags, its up to the shooter to decide on the given day, which flag is the best to utilize even if its not perfect.

I prefer flags to mirage personally, since mirage is not always visible, and often where I shot, teh wind was much more than 10-15mph often, such that mirage was useless to a point anyway. That way worst case conditions didn't leave me scratching my head as much.

As to not shooting in boils... I"ve said it before and I"ll say it again, I was always told not to also.... and had my butt handed to me a number of times by a former BR competitor...such that I don't ignore the possible of shooting in boils and can ram em down as fast as I can in that condition at times.

I can expect that you think that heat isn't an issue on your barrels. But trust me it may not be as much of a non issue as you think. The ONLY way to know is by a precisely kept data book of shot plots. Not score, but shot plots.

As to trees and winds making issues, certainly... just think if you set off a smoke, think what you'd see, thats how I imagine it as to what I"m going to do.. what will this tree line do, what will that valley do as if smoke were blowing down it.

I've even learned that you can up against a tree line, have reverse wind on than 95% of the otehrs on down the line AND have to add elevation at the same time as teh wind rolls over and pushes down..... or add elevation as it lifts it up...

Oh, we got a chance to see the effects of smoke at Lodi on the first day of the 1000 yard matches....

And I had the "pleasure" of shooting on relay one.

Please don't take my statement to belittle the conditions at all.

I'm simply saying you can't change the conditions, you have to do something about them and if you don't at least try, you are done before you shoot the first shot.

I know what you're saying Jeff. My load usually doesn't give me much vertical, I was left (along with a bunch of other people) trying to figure out where it was comming from. Then I watched the A-Team shoot...

rost, on both Lodi and Raton, the flags will be lying and the mirage will be telling the truth more often than not - if you can see the mirage of course. Raton often has a lot of wind and it may be more than mirage can cope with, but still, mirage is often the best indicator for me even there, and at Lodi, always - if it is visible.

Once I had the opportunity during my sighter string to shoot a few in a boil. Keeping that setting at hand, when the conditions died on us at Lodi that day, leaving us in a prolonged boil, I started shooting and I shot very well. Few others were shooting and those that did shot poorly. I'm a believer in shooting boils now, but like any condition, you need to get some sighters on it.

Brent

FWIW
I saw early on that the wind was difficult to judge. When my wind coach is having trouble, I know I don't have a chance. So I just machine gunned and chased the spotter. Worked pretty well until the last string of the match and I buckeled under the pressure and started trying to read the flags. Oops.

One thing I noticed, I got a chance to spend some serious time looking through a spotting scope during the 1000 yard matches. I could see the mirage running left to right, and then it would stop but there wasn't a boil. The flags didn't show this, but the targets were proof that the wind had let up. It appeared to be cyclic. Either you had 2/3rds of your time with the wind and 1/3rd without or the opposite.

Working with Bryan Litz, he explained to me that with a wind 6mph and higher he doesn't use mirage as a wind speed indicator. He puts more value in the flags. You don't ignore mirage, you're still watching for the wind to either dump or switch direction.

On the morning of the first day of the 1000 yard matches they fired that cannon. There might have been a temprature inversion right at the tree tops. The smoke rose to tree top level, drifted sideways to fill the range and then headed toward the targets. As the smoke hit the hillside it spilled around the hill on the right side and then climbed up the hill. I know they call it a mountain, taint no mountain from what I've seen.

Hello Mr. Gonsel, welcome Dave. It was great seeing you in Lodi.

Denys

Looks like my buddy Bob Pastor got the short end of the stick again.

Expert instead of HM and squaded on the wrong relay.

Bob's reloading room is covered on 3 walls from top to bottom with wood for F-Class and 1000yd BR matches. I personally don't know anyone else who has won as much as him.

I think he could of won it all. Great job Bob!

Not so sure that temp inversion was anything more than normal thermal effect of wind that happens in other than flat terrain every morning and evening.... IE it should be expected to happen.

As to mirage running, but stopping and no boil, I'd be confused to. BUT you have to remember you have 3 parts of where the bullet impacts

1 shooter shot process
2 effects of wind both horizontal and vertical
3 effects of mirage, both horizontal and somewhat vertical.

IE wind and mirage IMHO are TWO SEPERATE corrections. You can retain exactly the same wind, and having been shooting in mirage, if the mirage goes away, you will not remain centered.

As to Bryan Litz, I totally agree... as noted once I learned to TRY to go off flags instead of mirage, my scores crept up greatly. If you go back in history some, you'll note same results of our US Palma team....they had to go back and learn flags because mirage was not always true or available on demand so to speak, at the correct wind speeds.

What relay was Bob squadded on?

Bob came up to Midland for a Midrange match a year or two ago. Leo runs a block time where you shoot one string, take a break and then shoot your second string. Bob whinned about not having enough time to alow for his barrel to cool and then hammers down all fourty two shots in a row...

We haven't seen him since, and he doesn't come up to Cadillac, Grayling or Washtenaw matches either.

The relays varied each day. First day I was on relay 3/4, second day I was on 5/6 and thrid day I was on 1/2. For some reason the listed me as HM, when I am EXP and LR and HM only at MR.

It seemed to me that most everybody jumped relays during the week, but I could be wrong.

the first day was a scramble there was no set relay. However what i am to understand was that squadding was to be done so that the top shooters would compete on the same relay. This didn't appear to be the case. Bob on Tuesday shot a perfect score 450 which should have put him with the top shooters on Wed. in talking with him he was a couple of relays behind the other top competitors. did it affect his scores who knows, i do know that it is a common complaint amongst competitors that there is an unfair advantage when someone shoot on one relay and others shoot on another relay. Remember last year with Derek rogers winning the F class open.

Thanks
Trevor

Part of the problem was paid pullers. They used them as they could to make sure as many people who wanted them had them. They needed more paid pullers but just did not have the resources available to get them

If anyone thinks they had the shaft because of a relay they need to rethink as it was hit and miss all week as to what number relay would be fair and what one would be crummy. Range beat most everyone equally

really shouldn't matter at all what relay you are on, as long as shooters of equal skill are on the same set of relays.

That, IMHO, is about as fair as it can get. And its never fair totally but thats life. I"ve seen HM relays at Perry fire first in horrible wind early in teh day when it should have been the most calm, and a calm come over the range while the MK relays fired.... and sitting there thinking...damn, that would have been a 200 multi X really easy for me.... of course none of the MK we capable of shooting a 200 either..

Its all in a days game. And if you shoot an agg for the championship, its about as level as its going to get... instead of a single match.

agreed but my prospective would be to put the top scores on the same relay to avoid any what ifs.. you know as well as I that Wisconsin for that week had, lets just say S##t weather and in some cases one relay was noticable different then another. advantages or scores could be won or lost because of the extreme weather changes. Mind you no one is ever happy and i have heard guys grip about which end of the relay they were on against so and so.

Trevor

all same class on same relay thats a given and I've never seen it done any other way. Doesn't so much matter if its first or 7th... but same relay.

Anything else is unfair.

The final results are here:

http://www.wi-force.org/2011_Match_Bulletins/110926-30_Lodi_Bulletin.pdf