Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting Lodi, 2011 F-class Nationals

Yep, I've often waited it out to start shooting OR have known that it was super as the targets came up and started slamming it as quick as I could.

It is definitely a whole picture kind of thing. And in reality, shooting is only a tiny part of it.

After I have input all the scores in my tracking spreadsheet, I find that you guys are right.

In MR, I am classified as a high master and for the 600 yard course, I fired 1% below an HM score. In LR, I am classified as an expert and for the first day at 1000, I shot .5% below an expert score. The first and third string very decent, well within expert territory. The second string is what sank me. The second day at 1000 was pitiful, but it was that way for a lot of people.

I'm thinking the guys that win the big matches perform to their level and a bit beyond. And on very bad days, it's not so much who shoots the best, it's more like who screws up the least.

I am looking forward to this weekend.

Looks like the same for me. I thought I should have done better at 1000 yards.
Though if you take the 15 shot scores and run them out to a 20 round score plus a little fudge factor I shot better at Lodi than in any match I shot at Camp Grayling this season. Lodi winds aren't anything like we see at Grayling. So between the fact that I set a new national record this year and did better at this year's nationals than the last one I attended it hasn't been a bad year.

Good luck this weekend Denys!

Thanks, Al. I'm pumped.

on bad days its a given you'll screw up. Its who does it least that wins. Thats a totally different mindset than a better day. And you have to approach it mentally differently, and with a different strategy, save points, be safe, accept a safe 9 instead of trying for center X and loosing a 7......

1000 can be a sorta cake walk at some ranges, and at others a pure hold onto it, disaster.

Its only a shame you were never able to fire 1000 at Camp Bullis in SA.... thats the weirdest range at 1000 that I ever fired on, for slung up with the keller target I can recall firing back to back Xs with double digit correction moa wise on one direction, then the other..... something like 25 ish MOA change between shots. Pure fluke that the guess was correct to, I claim no expertise.

The first things you conquer of course is perfect gear and perfect shot performance, and then from then on your learning curve, IMHO, is to shoot in the most varying conditions you can find... IE as I've said, the local matches are not so much that you win, but htat you are practicing, guessing, learning etc...

Having shot Lodi many times but only with BPCR it is interesting to listed you the stories you guys have. Certainly, you must have had some really atypical conditions at Lodi relative to what I usually see there.

It would be a bit easier to relate to what you guys were doing if someone could provide a ball-park Ballistic Coefficient, velocity and bullet weight for a typical contending load, along with the x-ring diameter so I calculate what you guys experience vs what I have to contend with.

You speak the truth, Lagrangian dweller.

I seem to always question my rifle and ammo, thinking it simply can't be up to the task when I look around at all the other fancy (read pricey) gear that other competitors use. Then when I shoot 5 Xs in a row at 600 yards, I simply must eliminate this reticence to truly believe in my equipment.

As I said earlier, I am pumped up for this weekend's match. Thanks.

I shoot a .308 Winchester cartridge topped with a 180gr bullet with a calculated G7 BC of .294. The marketing G1 BC is .575.

Using a certain amount of Varget powder in a Lapua case, my 32 inch barrel is able to propel this bullet at an initial velocity just shy of 2900 FPS. About 1.5 seconds later after going up about 8 feet over the sight line, the bullet comes back down to punch the paper at a velocity of about 1500FPS, give or take depending on humidity and temperature, and elevation also.

On the paper, the concentric rings start of with a 5-inch X-ring, then a 10 inch 10-ring, a 20 inch 9-ring, a 30 inch 8-ring, a 44 inch 7-ring and a 60 inch 6-ring. If you are outside the 6 ring but still on the 6 foot by 6 foot target, you get 5 points.

A regular F-class match will require you to shoot either 15 or 20 consecutive shots for record after either 2 or an unlimited amount of sighters. Out of a possible 1350 points, I scored 1262 with 28 Xs. I had no misses, no cross-fires and no 5s or 6s for the entire 135 shots for record (or any of the sighters either.)

FTR, thanks. Your bullets have roughly 62.2% of the wind drift that my bullets do, and your target rings are roughly 1/2 the diameter of ours. In a 30 shot match (10 at 800, 900, 1000 with unlimited sighters) the best I have done at Lodi (in the rain, of course) is 278-5x which is about 92.7% and that compares pretty well with your 93.5%.

So, they scale about the same. We have a 40 ft rise above sight line, terminal velocity of about 840 fps, and a 3.5 second flight time. Lots and lots of time to get worried about whether I shot at the correct target, broke it on center, and so forth.

We shoot irons of course, but not sure that really matters a whole lot.

Half the diameter is one quarter the target area.

The rifle scope helps to be surgical on these small targets and enables these old(ish) eyes to actually see the target and the reticle.

Yes, I understand the area/diameter relationship, but I"m interested in simply wind effects which are, for the most part, left/right.

In my opinion, and the limited amount of scope shooting that I do, the advantage to a highpower scope is the ability to shade shots faster than on can crank sight knobs while still seeing the mirage.

Denys

Too many fires here again that I get involved in... so if I don't get to say it later... good luck on the weekend!!! Have fun and enjoy it all! Learn a bit along the way.

Don't question your gear or yourself so much, you are better than you think you are. And thats part of the battle too... you sorta gotta become arrogant to a certain extent in your mind and go get em!

Jeff

Brent, we had so much unexplained vertical issues at Lodi, I had to throw that in.

It's one thing to shoot a 7 at 9 o'clock, but it's a real pisser when you finally conquer the wind and throw it high or low.

Most times that would be the shooter, but when you look across the line and see lots of others shooting high or low, there's something else going on.

Yes, the scope does allow the shooter to hold off on the target. That's what I do all the time. Well, most of the time. I did break Denys' rule #1 "don't mess with the scope knobs when shooting for record," and I bought an 8 because I turned the scope the wrong way. That was during the team match at 600 yards. (I'm old and my mind is leaving me, that's my explanation.)

Gotcha. Don't talk to me because I can shoot sub-MOA all the way to 1000 yards, all day long.


This explains why the top athletes are usually arrogant; they actually believe it. It may not be arrogance so much as confidence.

I understand about the unexplained verticals. They are a real buggaboo for all of us. I have my hypotheses, but they are not terribly robust. I am sure it not as simple as the head/tailwind components to the wind. This fall, the first day at 800, I shot 7 tens and Xs, but then had two 8s at 6 o'olock. I didn't believe the first one, so I did it again - 2 inches from the first. Cranked the elevation and shot a final X. Yes, the verticals are miserable.

Shading with irons is nigh impossible in my opinion, but I have watched one guy from Idaho do it very well. Although he was older than me, I would be willing to bet he has awesome eyesight.

Brent

My current hypothesis has to do with terrain features and how wind is affected by them. At Bayou Rifles, the range is oriented due North. When the North wind blows stuff, it comes across various berms and gullies and I think it creates updrafts and downdrafts, which cannot be detected in the scope. When the wind is from the South, it just gets worse because I think the firing line cover is now in play.

At Lodi, the wind was coming around the montain from 1 and 2 o'clock. There are many berms and a large gully 600 yards down range. I think all these terrain features come in play.

FTR, we are on the same page then. I add to that the possible effect that turbulent wind blowing over the tree tops creates a downdraft the whole length of the alley way.

I don't worry so much about the low area But then my bullets are so high to start with, it may simply affect them much less.

Brent

Denys, yes on the arrogance thing and I do know you have to be positive and that comes across as arrogance to many... the top folks did seem that way to me too as an MK shooter... I slowly learned they were great folks, they just simply expected to win so to speak.
IMHO there are 3 things that can cause hi/low shots besides the shooter. I'm sure I"m far from correct though.
1 Wind and terrain features for sure.
2 Barrel heat( on my AR15s my DATA book showed a clear trend towards moving elevation on the sights around shot 13 to continue to stay centered)
3 Mirage can be tied to vertical and if you have no way of knowing or seeing it, it can really kill you. It may have a diagonal or vertical effect.

Even though I"m sure I"m missing something, I feel that I may have part of the reasons. I am sure there are other reasons. Besides shooter error.

Bottom line once again, arrogance comes into play. Is your load/equipment right? IF so, then did you call the shot high or low? If not, IE if its off call vertically and everything else was right, there is no need to shoot a verification 8....
I won't lie though, I may be too scared to make full to center X correction but I will always correct it to where I catch a 10... and if still that direction the following shot is tweaked to the center X if possible.

Oh yeah.. one other thing... there have been many times when I've been blowing right along... only to see something I don't understand at all... While I want to finish quickly, I have found that risking a shot when I see or think I see something that I don't understand, there is at least a 50/50 chance I'll screw up teh shot...

I tended to hold until the arrogance/confidence was back and start up again. I was dealing with a broader target than you guys do, but I felt that once I'd had a few rounds downrange I kinda had a feel for the conditions and could risk the downtime without a sighter to spare so to speak.

But that brings up another thing... shoot one sighter known condition,and if good, then wait it out till you see a change, guess the change, shoot it the same and see the impact just to verify... what you thought would give you a mid ring 9, just gave you that... or a 10 or a 7... without ever favoring or touching the knobs... twas good info for the mainframe computer analysis.

On the top guys (and gals) being great folk; I agree completely. I've never detected a hint of condescention talking with them about the discipline. They were always free with information and help, especially the older ones.

Barrel heat is not much on an issue with my truck-axle barrels.

I agree with Brent that the tree line contributes to the unexpected effects.

I am very much used to mirage, shooting at Bayou. I have yet to see it go down, and I try not to shoot in a boil. At Lodi, I was only able to use the mirage once in 9 strings. On the second day, I detected it dancing on the number boards and I was able to use it. It saved me from a couple of quick reverses and I did pretty good on that string. On Friday, there was no mirage, only lying wind flags in the afternoon.