Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats P.O. Ackley and the Wildcat Game

It seems that, right or wrong. whenever the topic of wildcats come up, the name P.O. Ackley is sure to follow.
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<br>My questions are these:
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<br>1] Have you actually taken the time to read Ackley's books?
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<br>2] What did you think in general, and with what did you agree and disagree in particular?
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<br>3] Do you own an AI chambered rifle?
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<br>4] Would you consider one?
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<br>5] Which AI caliber sticks out in your mind?
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<br>My answers are:
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<br>1. Not yet (a serious lapse on my part).
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<br>2. Comments reserved pending reading.
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<br>3. Not yet.
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<br>4. Hell yes!
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<br>5. I was very hot for a .25-06 AI, but the .257 WSM has my attention now. I think I would go for a .375 H&H AI.
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<br>This wildcat stuff is definitely addicting and fun!
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<br>Rick
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<br>P.S.: Honey, if you read this, blame it on Big Stick, Eremicus, and Ken Howell. . Oh, and I'll get the trash now.

Have not read Ackley's writing. Did get a chance to look through his Volume 1$2, but did not really get in to it deeply. Actually had a 450 Mag (as Ackley called it) that was built by Parker Ackley in 1959. Was built on a P17 action and had a stainless steel barrel that was blued. Had the most unigue muzzle brake I have ever seen. The brake was actually made from the barrele blank as the barrel was turned down tothe muzzle. The very end of the muzzle brake was threaded and screwed on like a bolt. There was a gap beteen the internal part of the brake and the end of the muzzle. This was actually more of an expansion chamber than it was a brake, but had the same effect as a brake. On top of the brake were 4 half-moon shaped slots.
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<br>Have also owned a 35 Whelen AI that was built on a P17.

R1ck, I have both books and have read parts in them. I have also tried some of his loads and frankly got nervous. Shall I say that they are on the optimistic side. On 3 different loads even with a drop tube and holding the case against a running tumbler, I couldn't fit the bullet deep enough to chamber. I only used one load of his in the 7x57 AI. and afterwords I pulled the bullets on the other 4 shells as I happen to respect that certain rifle. Some of them are quite warm(HOT). The 7x57AI. is simple to load for. I also tried loads for the 35 Whelen and a 7x57 mauser that were a little generous. They did not match his advertized figures. That is the only expereience that i've had with AI cartriges. I feel that he was a genius in the workings and promoting of wildcat cartriges.

Rick I have read both Ackley books several times. when I was growing up my father was a friend of Mr. Ackley so he had his books in first addition. He saved a few letters from P.O.Ackley. Some day I hope to aquire this memobilia. I do have a rifle that Ackley barreled for my father, this rifle is a 458x2 american, a cartridge Barnes developed, it has PO Ackley stamped on the barrel. I would like to have met Mr. Ackley my self.
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<br>Bullwnkl.

Well no I have not read his books but I have put together a few. I own a 243AI and 7-08AI. Both custom rifles extremely accurate and easy to load for.
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<br>243AI: Rem 700S/A, 23.5" Pac-Nor SS #4 bbl(10 twist) in a McMillan BDL sporter stock -gray w/blk & tan swirl mixed in. Action & bbl KG Gun-Koted. Leupold 4.5X14AO in matte blk
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<br>7-08AI: Rem 700S/A, 22.5" Pac-Nor SS #2.5 bbl(11twist) in a McMillan Mtn Rifle stock, drk blue w/gray & blk swirl mixed in. RifleBasix trigger at 2.5lbs. Action KG Gun-Koted, bbl glass -beaded. Leupold 2.5X8 in DD mounts
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<br>What I don't like about the Ackleys is all the naysayers who put em down when they did not load or spec their rifles correctly. Take the 30/06AI, probably the most controversial AI cartridge in my opinion. I questioned a negative poster over on Accurate Reloading on his experience with the 06AI(By E-mail) After relaying to me the powders he used I could see why- he used all the fast ball powders for 180gr bullets. And in a 22" bbl. I've done alot of research on the 06AI and learned its best to go with a 24"+ bbl and stick with the slower powders(RL-22,H4831) Chris at Pac-Nor assured me of a 150fps gain and he has shot a 06AI for years. For me, a 100fps gain is worthwhile so I am going to build one. Wait I know about the 300WSM or 300RSUM but I already have an 06 700action. Try finding a 700 S/A with a Mag boltface.
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<br>For me a big plus of the 308 class of improved cartridges is the availability of Lapua brass. Costs a little more but is well worth it considering what Rem & Win brass mills have been turning out lately(.463" case webs!) You can load this brass to 65,000psi, it is strong indeed! Lapua also makes 06 brass another big plus. Right now I'm prepping 308win brass for my 7mm08AI. Necking down to 7mm, fireforming w/cream of wheat and then turning the necks slightly for that perfect fit. Velocities should be excellent w/RL-15 and 140gr bullets. I am a newly wildcat addict and admit it. Now where do I go for treatment? Mtn Hunter

"P.S.: Honey, if you read this, blame it on Big Stick, Eremicus, and Ken Howell." Don't blame it on me, Rick! I'd never recommend an Ackley "Improved' to anybody.
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<br>Now I have to defang the inevitable allegation that I have no experience with an Ackley cartridge (I do -- with a nice custom 1903 Springfield sporter) or that my rifle wasn't chambered to the correct specs (Ackley did it). But that's an old story, already told on another board, where it brought down wagon loads of fresh manure onto me. So there's nothing to gain by repeating it here. Extremely unpleasant, personally abusive posts would inevitably follow.
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<br>We now have better powders for both of these versions of the '06 than those I could get in 1955. Even so, the improvement of the Ackley rechambering is slight. Compare the results below, in a modern .30-06 rechambered to the Ackley version. Both sets of data come from the same bullet (180-grain Nosler) and the same seating, in a 24-inch barrel, at the same maximum peak pressure. The slight increases in velocity are understandable, since fire-forming the cases to the Ackley chamber increased the water capacity of the .30-06 from 68.2 to 69.3 grains -- not a great capacity increase (that's an increase of only about 0.95 grain of powder).
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<br>H-414 -- 2,870 ft/sec to 2,880 ft/sec
<br>W-760 -- 2,850 ft/sec to 2,860 ft/sec
<br>H-380 -- 2,780 ft/sec to 2,800 ft/sec
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<br>Notice that the greatest velocity increase occurred with the least productive of these three powders and didn't match the velocities produced by the other two powders. Other powders failed to produce comparable velocities at the same peak pressures, so presumably these are three of the best powders for either the original or the Ackley version of the .30-06.
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<br>I found the 40� shoulder troublesome. The necks of the cases frequently 'turtle-necked" (collapsed into the shoulder during the seating of the bullet).
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<br>None of this negates the basic advantages of other truly improved cartridges. Extending the body of the case forward produces a good bit more real improvement than merely blowing-out the body and increasing the shoulder angle. There's VERY little difference, for example, between the capacity increases of the 30� and the 40� shoulder angles. Also, the smaller the difference between the shoulder and neck diameters, the less a meaningful increase in capacity is even possible.
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I've read his books. I must agree with Dr. Howell. For me, they are too much trouble.
<br> When I go up in case capacity, I like a good jump. Why go to a .280 AI when the 7 mm Mag case offers more.
<br> His ballistic claims were sometimes exaggerated. Usually due to other persons testing his creations.
<br> I do give him high marks for stimulating thinking that lead to improvements.
<br> BTW, he marketed some excellent solid base bullets for a while. Not far from today's Throphy Bonded bullets, if I remember correctly.
<br> I must admit, I never thought I'd own a wildcat. Then that Stick guy posted about his .25-284 on a Rem 600 action. And, as fate would have it, a 660 Rem (same action) appeared for sale at a then local gun shop. Bought the rifle, and I was off. It was a .308. I never even fired a shot out of it. I don't regret one little bit of the whole process.
<br> Except that I found out just what is possible in a custom rifle. Lord, Save Me. I want to send my guns, with factory barrels to Pac-Nor. I want to throw away my factory stocks and buy McMillians. I even want to rebuild my .5 MOA heavy eight. Mind you, it works fine. I just want something different. A Mk.4 M3 scope wouldn't hurt either.
<br> That's enough ranting from me. E

I'm very guilty,of liking the "Improved" case designs.
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<br>I've shot many cartridges,in their "regular" and Improved flavorings. To date,I have yet to twist one up,that didn't leave me less than thrilled.
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<br>Today I finally got my heavy barreled 7-08 in the Mail. With it,was a friends 22" barreled 280Ackley. Few would guffaw the 7-08,but the 280AI will be subject to much ridicule.
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<br>I understand why he built it and very much side with that decision. It will offer more juice than the 280 and the 7mmRemMag requires more barrel length. His 280AI,is a very lightweight rifle(skeletonized S/S Rem700,S/S Gentry base/rings,Leupold 6xCompact w/turret and wears a PacNor Mtn Contour S/S blank,all tucked in a light filled McMillan Rem Mtn rifle pattern). I'm betting it will deliver the 120X at a minimum of 3300fps,despite the short tube. It will hold 4 in the belly and brass is dirt cheap. Besides,the cases look cool(try to quantify THAT).
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<br>My 25-06Ackley with a 24" tube,is the one that really suprised me the most. It's barrel is "too short",also. But it makes speeds that absolutely astounded me. I've had five 25-06's prior and had a very good feel for that cartridges capabilities. The Improved version is on another seperate page and without compare,to it's regular flavor. Ackley himself,didn't think much of that particular cartridge. All I know is,if you put Re-22 in it,combined with a 100gr projectile,it is simply stunning!
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<br>I've had a herd of Improved cartridges and am always contemplating the next facet,to evaluate. On numerous barrels,I simply punched out the existing Factory chamber,to it's Improved version. I felt that to be the best way to evaluate performance gains. None of this "fast" tube vs "slow" tube stuff. It is simple,before and after. Those type of projects have left me wanting to Improve most everything.
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<br>I shoot different powders than most,like different weights than most and probably have expectations that differ from most. I like minimal body taper,sharp shoulders and shortish necks,because they all effectively increase capacity.
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<br>If I wasn't always in such a hurry,the Lilja barreled 7-08 I got in the Mail today,would have been a 7-08Improved. I'll shoot it for a while,until the reamer is done and have it both Improved and then fluted/frozen. I'm sure those notions,will cause many to snicker. Don't worry,I'm snickering back(grin).
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<br>I shoot with an open mind and very much appreciate the attributes of the Improved case design..................
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Ken Howell,
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<br> You used the wrong powders! Try again with RL22, RL19, H4350, H4831 and then report your new data. I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you. Remember the best fps gains in the 06 AI are with the slooow powders! Take care AA leader, we still like you.

Just did a little experiment,with the 25-06Ackley.
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<br>I used H-110 to find capacity of that cartridge case,as opposed to a regular 25-06 case. Both cases were from the same lot of brass and weighed the same 197.2grs empty.
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<br>When filled to flush with the case mouth,the 25-06Ackley holds 70.2grs of H-110. The regular 25-06,holds 64.3grs. That is an average of three weights taken,for each cartridge case design.
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<br>Pretty close,to the often touted 10% yield......................
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"Try again with RL22, RL19, H4350, H4831 and then report your new data. I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you."
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<br>Well yes, as a matter of fact, I can and will -- right here (same givens as before):
<br>RL-22 -- 2,520 ft/sec -- 2,550 ft/sec
<br>RL-19 -- 2,570 ft/sec -- 2,600 ft/sec
<br>H-4350 -- 2,700 ft/sec -- 2,730 ft/sec
<br>H-4831SC -- 2,500 ft/sec -- 2,530 ft/sec
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<br>(Remember -- I said, above, that other powders didn't do as well as the ones that I cited. Also remember that I limited the slightly improved cartridge to the same maximum pressures as the original version.)
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<br>"Remember the best fps gains in the 06 AI are with the slooow powders!"
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<br>Do you think that the powders cited in my first post are NOT "slooow?"
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<br>"Take care AA leader, we still like you."
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<br>If "AA" stands for "anti-Ackley," I plead not guilty. I plead guilty to being antidelusion (these days, I feel downright antediluvian, too!). And all I've learned so far has pretty well convinced me that considering a gain of only 10 to 30 ft/sec to be worth all the trouble is a delusion. The idea that the gain is substantially greater than 10 to 30 ft/sec is also a delusion. The world of fantasy can be a wonderful place to visit, but I choose not to live there.

All I want to know is who do I blame my next project on???
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<br>Actually, I was real hot for a .25-06 AI until the advent of the WSM. Now I'm glad I didn't build one (an AI that is). I'm firmly on the WSM bandwagon now.
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<br>Rick

257WSM Ackley Improved?...........(grin)

This month's American Rifleman has a well illustrated article on the .270 WSM. Read it, and drool. E

An anonymous coward wrote:
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<br>"I think you will be amazed but you won't post your results will you."
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<br>This is positively the most chicken [bleep] post I think I've ever seen in any forum. You don't even have the gonads to use your online nickname. Much less the integrity to use your real name.
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<br>Shame on you
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<br>Scott

Hi Rick and others,
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<br>I am back posting. I felt uncomfortable using my name, now have a handle.
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<br>I have read the two book set cover to cover.Have even reread some article. Many interesting things there. Talking about some of them in the past got things stirred up nicely.
<br>I also noticed that he talked about a bullet used in a 220 swift that is similar to the trophy bonded bullet. It was in the chapter on killing power or some similar topic.
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<br>One thing that frustrates me was leaving out an important detail on almost all of the printed load data. THE BARREL LENGTH!!!!
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<br> I think he had many good ideas, but improved too many cases.
<br>--------Some would only have the advantage of longer case life, according to his writings, something I do not know by experience.
<br>---------Perhaps some barrels would last longer with the sharper shoulder angle. it was mentioned that the powder would converge in the neck instead of the beginning of the barrel with a sharp shoulder angle. Again I cannot prove or disprove based on MY experiences.
<br>--- the one concept I have been burned on dealt with twist rate. He said a great deal of energy was consumed in the twist. Less twist, I figure would be a good thing and could help gain some velocity. Lazzeroni does this. Of course the bullet must be stabilized. Faster bullets tend to use less twist. care to argue this?
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<br> I don't have an Ackley improved cartridge. I do have the closest thing with two rifles chambered in 284 win. The first factory AO improved case. I cannot tell if the cases last longer or the barrels as mentioned before, because I have no reference. I still have to trim the cases, as I do not neck size but partially fl size.
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<br> I always thought the 257 roberts AO improved to be his best. I jsut got a 25-06 with a 26 inch barrel that begs to be improved. Who would take my barreled action and do a reasonably priced job?
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<br>Nice to be back....Ross L.
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I had the pleasure of dealing with Ackley after he had basically retired but he would still do a little custom work. He was indeed a jewell. Apparently cranky as a nursing sow bear but if you wanted a square bored barrel of .632 diameter, with a single groove gain twist, chambered to a .22 LR necked up, he would do it for you at a very low cost and have the work back in a very short time, together with a letter telling you why it was such a silly project. He generally admitted that his wildcats didn't offer much if anything over standard calibers. His .250AI is about his most effecient "improved" design and the 7X57 AI was reasonable too. His answers were always typed on an old elite typewriter, sort of like Elmer Keith's, misspellings, over-strikes and all. He made my .411/.458 and returned it in about 2 weeks with a note saying I didn't need to worry about an aimed follow up shot (this was made for bear protection) because the first shot would knock me silly. Charged $61.00 as I recall. And he was about right as the recoil is fierce. I still have some of our correspondence. I had him rebore a rusty .30/40 Krag, Krag out to .35/.30/40. It rattled when I opened the package and I discovered he hadn't screwed the barrel back into the action other than finger tight. I traded that off but still have a .17, a .25/222, and the .411 (lovingly named "Big Thump") he made for me. Yes, his load recommendations must of came from his or someone's hat but then too, he does list loads for cartridges which you can find no where else, just start well below what he lists. So far as I know, there is no one like him doing gun work today. Ol Grouch

" So far as I know, there is no one like him doing gun work today."
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<br>A good friend of mine in Virginia sent Virgin Valley a Hall falling-block action and a Dan Lilja barrel blank -- had 'em fit and chamber the barrel and mill it to twelve flats, with integral quarter rib. What he got back was a nicely machined barrel just finger-tight in the receiver. Turning it in tight would turn the quarter-rib past top dead center.

Ken,
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<br>Did Virgin Valley eventually make it right?
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<br>Scott

1) Not yet
<br>2) No comment, see 1
<br>3) Yes, 35 whelen AI*
<br>4) Already Have
<br>5) -06 is the one that comes to mind most, one of the more esoteric would be the 17 ackley hornet.
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<br>* My experience with the 35 whelen AI has been mixed. I have only achieved accurate groups at high pressure, I venture to say a strain gauge would rate it as unsafe levels.
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<br>When fireforming brass, it is easy to set the shoulder back, thus causing headspace problems, and case/head seperations.
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<br>The nearly straight cases just don't feed as well as a gentler slope. May be good for BR, or BS, but for a hunting rifle, I want something that feeds smooth.
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<br>I'm planning on re-chambering to a 350 Rigby Rimless Magnum, will provide a larger case for milder pressures, decent body taper for smooth feeding, and will not be a wildcat, not that it matters as factory fodder is essentially unavailable w/ the 350 rigby.
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<br>I honestly think the expense of re-chambering and new reloading dies, as well as the work to fireform cases just isn't worth the meager velocity gains. If you are gaining 150-200 fps, it's because you are running the pressures up, not do to increase of case capacity or "efficient burn". If you think otherwise, you are just kidding yourself. If you want a faster gun, then get one by signifigantly increasing the size of the case!