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Campfire 'Bwana
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antelope_sniper,
Originally Posted By Ringman
antelope_sniper,
You start with the idea the Bible is wrong and stop when you find something on the web you agree with. You apparently didn't read to the last paragraph of Mojohand's cut and paste.
Except I'm aware of the additional difficulties introduced with attempting to move the timeline a full millennium. It just doesn't work.
You mean you don't want it to work !It's doesn't matter what I want, but if you try to make the 2400BCE time line work for Jericho, you have to consider how that would affect the other aspect of the Joshua timeline. Attempting to force this once piece doesn't create a cohesive puzzle.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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...Besides, as Christians go, I tend to see you in the mold of Scott and Rost. Mistaken on the facts, but critical enough you are not hurting anyone in the process. I'll take that as a compliment. As to my being mistaken on the facts, I suggest that you have no idea what facts I know and how I put them into context. This is all about context and comparison. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There is a 50/50 chance there is or is not a God. I prefer the safe bet. Even if your 50/50 proposition was correct (which I don't think it is), Then you also have to get the right god.....So now your odds are way below 50% He's a white, American Christian...of course he has the 'right god', dontcha know?   Hmm how interesting , how do you know I am white or an American Christian? You know chitt. Do Blacks or any other nonwhites if they are a member of the Christian community not have the same god ? Are you really this stupid? It boils down to 50/50 odds you are right or wrong . No. I have a 20 sided die. You predict the next roll will be a 2. You will be either right or wrong, but your odds of being correct are not 50%, they are 5%
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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antelope_sniper,
Originally Posted By Ringman
antelope_sniper,
You start with the idea the Bible is wrong and stop when you find something on the web you agree with. You apparently didn't read to the last paragraph of Mojohand's cut and paste.
Except I'm aware of the additional difficulties introduced with attempting to move the timeline a full millennium. It just doesn't work.
You mean you don't want it to work !It's doesn't matter what I want, but if you try to make the 2400BCE time line work for Jericho, you have to consider how that would affect the other aspect of the Joshua timeline. Attempting to force this once piece doesn't create a cohesive puzzle. AS, Are you referring to the timeline issue brought forth by Katherine Kenyon's work? TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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...Besides, as Christians go, I tend to see you in the mold of Scott and Rost. Mistaken on the facts, but critical enough you are not hurting anyone in the process. I'll take that as a compliment. As to my being mistaken on the facts, I suggest that you have no idea what facts I know and how I put them into context. This is all about context and comparison. Ed Ed, I'm glad you took it as a compliment, because that's how it was intended. Ok, I grant that I made some assumptions about your beliefs. In fairness mom taking you to Mass doesn't saddle you with the entirety of the Catholic faith, and you and I haven't had the "What do you believe, and why do you believe it" conversation. Sometime's I'm amazed at what some of the folks here really believe. My favorite was the guy who believed this existence is not real, it's a god generated simulation, and only the next life is actually real. 
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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antelope_sniper,
Originally Posted By Ringman
antelope_sniper,
You start with the idea the Bible is wrong and stop when you find something on the web you agree with. You apparently didn't read to the last paragraph of Mojohand's cut and paste.
Except I'm aware of the additional difficulties introduced with attempting to move the timeline a full millennium. It just doesn't work.
You mean you don't want it to work !It's doesn't matter what I want, but if you try to make the 2400BCE time line work for Jericho, you have to consider how that would affect the other aspect of the Joshua timeline. Attempting to force this once piece doesn't create a cohesive puzzle. AS, Are you referring to the timeline issue brought forth by Katherine Kenyon's work? TF In what part? Kenyon puts the timeline 150 years before the consensus understanding of the Biblical account, and new C-14 testing corroborated her findings (see Mojo's story and link above). At the end of Mojo's post there was a throw away line that a Biblical scholar proposed an even earlier timeline of 2400BCE to make it work, and that's what I was discarding above with Ringman.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I did not say it was the root of all evil, just demonstrated one common failing of that mode of thinking. How many billions of people on our earth maintain a notion of an immortal soul, and what percentage of those billions are 'blowing up a buncha people who think differently than them so they can be rewarded in an afterlife'...and then show us how you've "demonstrated" that doing so is a "common failing of that mode of thinking"...? 450 of 452 suicide bombers in 2015 were Muslim. Suicide bombing is a faith based initiative. And those 450 Muslim suicide bombers comprised 'what percentage' of the billions of people worldwide that maintain the notion of an immortal soul...? And is that percentage (those 'blowing up a buncha people who think differently than them so they can be rewarded in an afterlife') representative of what you would call "a common failing of that mode of thinking" (those billions that maintain the notion of an immortal soul)...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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...mom taking you to Mass doesn't saddle you with the entirety of the Catholic faith... Gotcha again... It wasn't Mom. I went on my own after a friend asked me if I wanted to go and see what Mass was like. I jumped at the opportunity.  People's beliefs continually amaze me, too. Something I have learned to do is accept that their beliefs are theirs, not mine and I have no business meddling with them. I'd rather my "walk" do the talking. If someone really wants to know why I am as I am, I'll be glad to share. There are many ways of communicating, speech and the written words are but two of them. Something you continually seem to miss, that I have tried to get across, and evidently have not done a good job of, is that you cannot compare "faith" to empirical argument. Apples to granite again. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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I feel like I'm at the zoo watching the monkeys and somebody gave them a bag of hammers and screwdrivers. Oh, that gave me the giggles thanks! We are a funny lot, aren't we... Still giggling, thanks again.
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Very well said Ed! I was babtized Catholic and raised Lutheran, although I occasionally went to mass with my dad or godparents I grew up as and was confirmed Lutheran. Growing up I had friends of all faiths and at various times throughout my life I had the opportunity to attend their services with them. Those Faith's were varied and ranged from Mormons to Babtists and everything in between. When I'd ask my Mom if I could miss church to go with a friend to theirs Mom always said yes. Mom lived a very Christian life and never passed judgement. She thought that faith was important enough and needed to be strong enough that understanding and respecting other religions was no threat. I still find that a useful, tolerant approach, except Muslims.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Ed, Unfortunately, that is what the vast majority of religious people do...try 'prove' their FAITH using empirical arguments and as you said (and Sniper, myself and every other skeptic I've read) that doesn't work. Matter of fact, the whole idea of Christian 'apologetics' is really a paradox. Someone once said that apologetics arent for convincing the skeptical but for making the believer feel better... There also seems to be a giant gap in the knowledge of what and how skeptics think and a decided cognitive dissonance on the part of believers leading to a projection of their intellectual missteps onto the skeptic. But more on that later....its been a loong week at work (had to work today) and I'm tired. Stay tuned for an 'Advice to Christians' thread. Perhaps it will clear some things up amongst ourselves.... 
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...
Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.
Stupidity has no average...
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Very well said Ed! I was babtized Catholic and raised Lutheran, although I occasionally went to mass with my dad or godparents I grew up as and was confirmed Lutheran. Growing up I had friends of all faiths and at various times throughout my life I had the opportunity to attend their services with them. Those Faith's were varied and ranged from Mormons to Babtists and everything in between. When I'd ask my Mom if I could miss church to go with a friend to theirs Mom always said yes. Mom lived a very Christian life and never passed judgement. She thought that faith was important enough and needed to be strong enough that understanding and respecting other religions was no threat. I still find that a useful, tolerant approach, except Muslims. After our PM's, and now this post, I'm beginning to believe that our Moms were sisters. My parents never insisted we adhere to any one religion. While we went to church on a regular basis, (it was military Chapels which exposed us to many Judeo-Christian religions) we were free to accept or refuse any given doctrine. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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...My favorite was the guy who believed this existence is not real, it's a god generated simulation, and only the next life is actually real. Somewhere in my studies I have run across that belief. IIRC, it is a philosophy that has quite a few adherents, to the point of being named. Now if I could just recall what it was called...  Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire Ranger
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I bet our Moms have already met....they're no doubt talking about their boys and their grandchildren.
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Outfitter
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"the patient admitted he had gone to Hell. I won't share details of the man's story"
Give me a break docrocket. You gotta share details of the man's story.
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...Stay tuned for an 'Advice to Christians' thread. Perhaps it will clear some things up amongst ourselves.... I look forward to it. From here, atheists do the same thing that Christians do, namely try to prove their "faith" (Faith that there is no God) by trying to prove that Christians "faith" is wrong because of the lack of empirical evidence. Both very, very frustrating as they lead to nothing but ill feelings, misunderstandings, and further entrenchment. As an"apologetics" foil, I suggest that the use of empirical evidence isn't for convincing those of religious faith, but to assuage the atheists that they are superior. See, it cuts both ways... Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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I bet our Moms have already met....they're no doubt talking about their boys and their grandchildren. Yup. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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antelope_sniper,
Originally Posted By Ringman
antelope_sniper,
You start with the idea the Bible is wrong and stop when you find something on the web you agree with. You apparently didn't read to the last paragraph of Mojohand's cut and paste.
Except I'm aware of the additional difficulties introduced with attempting to move the timeline a full millennium. It just doesn't work.
AS, Kenyon concluded that the city walls had collapsed before the city burned. Just like the bible says. Regarding her dating, she concluded that the site was destroyed decades before Jewish arrival. Her conclusions were strongly influenced by the absence of pottery known to be common in the time the Jews came. She only excavated two small squares. Her dating was not consistent with the conclusions of her predecessor who concluded the fall of Jericho to be consistent with the time of Jewish conquest. Pottery shard dating work has now shown that matches the Joshua timeline. So, you have the wall and fire evidence consistent with the bible as well as her successor as well as respected pottery dating experts lining it up for the Bible being correct. So, what about the C-14 dating? The dispute is about 160 years with these 3500 year old samples. Consider that for a moment. Anyway, it seems the dating is effectively disputed. Seems the dates had not been correctly “downdated” as is commonly required with centuries old samples. If one looks at the data and applies the required adjustments, Kenyon’s timeline is not corroborated but in fact is disputed. Go ahead and google “Jericho Chronology Dispute.” The facts are there to see if one takes the blinders off. All in all, the biblical account of the fall of Jericho is remarkably well supported by science. TF You mean you don't want it to work !It's doesn't matter what I want, but if you try to make the 2400BCE time line work for Jericho, you have to consider how that would affect the other aspect of the Joshua timeline. Attempting to force this once piece doesn't create a cohesive puzzle. AS, Are you referring to the timeline issue brought forth by Katherine Kenyon's work? TF In what part? Kenyon puts the timeline 150 years before the consensus understanding of the Biblical account, and new C-14 testing corroborated her findings (see Mojo's story and link above). At the end of Mojo's post there was a throw away line that a Biblical scholar proposed an even earlier timeline of 2400BCE to make it work, and that's what I was discarding above with Ringman. AS, Kenyon concluded that the city walls had collapsed before the city burned. Just like the bible says. Regarding her dating, she concluded that the site was destroyed decades before Jewish arrival. Her conclusions were strongly influenced by the absence of pottery known to be common in the time the Jews came. She only excavated two small squares. Her dating was not consistent with the conclusions of her predecessor who concluded the fall of Jericho to be consistent with the time of Jewish conquest. Pottery shard dating work has now shown that matches the Joshua timeline. So, you have the wall and fire evidence consistent with the bible as well as her successor as well as respected pottery dating experts lining it up for the Bible being correct. So, what about the C-14 dating? The dispute is about 160 years with these 3500 year old samples. Consider that for a moment. Anyway, it seems the dating is effectively disputed. Seems the dates had not been correctly “downdated” as is commonly required with centuries old samples. If one looks at the data and applies the required adjustments, Kenyon’s timeline is not corroborated but in fact is disputed. Go ahead and google “Jericho Chronology Dispute.” The facts are there to see if one takes the blinders off. All in all, the biblical account of the fall of Jericho is remarkably well supported by science. TF
Last edited by TF49; 04/24/16.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Something you continually seem to miss, that I have tried to get across, and evidently have not done a good job of, is that you cannot compare "faith" to empirical argument. Apples to granite again.
Ed
Ed, that really goes to the second part of my typical question, "Why do you believe it". My people hold their belief for family and cultural reasons. In many communities adhering to the local faith is really a necessity. As a result for many folks their faith was just a matter of what they grew up with, and they never reached it through a process of reason. To quote Twain, You can’t reason someone out of something they weren’t reasoned into, so in these instances, often it is the matter of apples to granite. On the other hand, for people who actually care about truth, and not the preconceived notions of their childhood, then comparing one's faith with the imperial evidence is a valid proposition. As for those who openly admit they believe because they want to believe and the truth is of no importance to them....changing those minds is a difficult process, so hopefully they are of the harmless variety of believer...
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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...changing those minds is a difficult process, so hopefully they are of the harmless variety of believer... Why do you feel the need to change their minds? Ed P.S. It's my bedtime. Catch up with this tomorrow.
Last edited by APDDSN0864; 04/24/16.
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