Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Internets Rifle Accuracy

southtexas,

Yeah I'm probably pushing the statement,

I guess I've just been lucky, but really, more times than not and if I take the time to find the right handload they can perform.

I just feel very confident about that.

That is because you are a good shot.

I know of a lot of "inaccurate Pieces of Shat" that shoot sub-MOA as soon as the loon behind the trigger is removed.

BMT

I just read an interesting article by Ian McMurchy and he had much lower standards for most rifles which I was somewhat shocked with. He indicates that most factory varmint rifles will do about 2moa with factory ammo and will not reach 1moa without handloads. He was much less optimistic about hunting or lightweight rifles saying most will go about three inches, 2 with handloads. He primarily attributes this to poor bedding and horrible triggers.

This clashes with my own experience, I have only had one rifle go over 3moa (brand starts with a K) and would say most hunting weight stuff is usually about 1.5moa with a factory ammo, cutting the last .5moa may take some doing but is possible. I taught alot of sniper schools and can confidently say a Rem700 in .308 with factory match and a leup scope (99% of all sniper rifles in the 1990s) will consistenly hold 1moa right out of the box shooting off of bipods.

On the other hand I recall Robar being one of the first to offer a submoa claim for their SR60 sniper rifles in the early 90's and they wanted a hefty sum. Their SR-60 was a 1/2 moa claim and the cost was almost double. I think the custom smiths are offering exceptional work today based on better equipment and tighter standards. Todays higher end shooters are much more demanding on a rifles capabilities even if the rifle will greatly exceed their own ability to wield it. I agree 2moa will do for 99% of all hunts but most will search for more as a simple confidence issue.

As someone else mentioned we have the best ammo and components ever available and I think that is a huge contributor to the accuracy you often see reported.

I don't claim every rifle I own is sub-MOA, I have a couple MOA, every time, if I'm behind the trigger. I have a 6PPC barrel for my TC Encore that is .5 MOA out to 200 yds with the loads it likes. I've also shot load development groups with this barrel that make me cring, 3 MOA or worse! It depends on the load, but most of all on the shooter! My brother-in-law, whom I load for, started complaining about his .30-06 (Browning A-Bolt) shooting poorly at his last range session. I load it with the same load I shoot in my M70, 57 gr. of IMR 4350 and a 165 gr. Nosler BT. It shoots MOA in both rifles. I went to the range with him a week later and asked him to shoot it for me. He shot a 2 1/2" group and said "See, that's what I'm talking about." I said, "Do you mind if I run 5 shots down range?" He said "Go ahead" 5 shots later I had a nice round cluster of 5 shots that measured .85". He couldn't understand what happened. I offered to load each round for him and hand him the rifle, I claimed I had a "trick" I did with the loading. The trick was an empty cartridge in the chamber and the result was a flinch from him! I explained to him gently that that was why his group was 2 1/2" and mine was under an inch. Turns out he had been shooting him 7mm Mag with no recoil protection the week before and he was scared of everything! I told him to get out the .22 LR and spend a few hundred rounds behind it to make his .30-06 shoot better.
Selmer

A "flyer" is the weakest excuse yet. I wouldn't even think about posting some shabby assed group with a couple of holes circled and labled as "flyers"

g

I suppose I've seen quite a few guns that won't shoot 1 MOA out of the box. Usually something like a M740 (or whatever the number is for a Remington semi-auto).

I also must be an oddity, because I save groups like this.



Why shouldn't I? It was shot with a 03-A3, that's older than me, that had the original stock and trigger and a $29.95 scope on it. It was also shot with a Blue Dot load and a "junk" bullet used 50+ years ago. I like to think it's educational, for me, if for no one else.

I bought a couple of boxes of Winchester .30-06 factory loads a few years ago, but they weren't premium loads. If they are an example of what's offered, they haven't begun to equal what we loaded 40+ years ago.

That H4350 must really be some hot stuff in a 7mm Mag. I use 50% more IMR 4350 (even the newer short tube Canadian stuff) with a 139 gr Hornady and only get 3200 fps. Maybe I need to see if the 1964 M700 will still shoot MOA with that load.

I shot both these 3 shot groups on back to back consecutive days just to see if I could do it, i did.

I used magnum powder to do it. A month later the temps changed by 40 degrees and the next groups patterned like a shotgun.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/IMG_0181.jpg[/img][/img]


I also save most targets for reference with a certain load. Not all are moa.

[img][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/su35/deerelkphotos077.jpg[/img][/img]


Yeah, there's a lot of BS and exaggeration here.

Paul5388 - what do you mean by the "new short tubed I4350 from Canada"? I checked the IMR website and they do not mention this powder being made in a short cut version.

IMR powders have been made in Canada for years. They were shipped to the States (New York state I think) for packaging and distribution. This was always a sore point for many Canadian shooters because this system caused us to pay far more for the powder than we should have had to.

No flame intended, just curious if there has been some change I am not aware of.

Thanks, Jim

In 1969 I bought a used m700 BDL in 30'06 put a used Weaver v7 on it bought a box of Remington 180 Corelocks at Firestone & went to the local redneck range. Using a rolled up coat I shot 2 ea 1" groups off a truck hood. This rifle in now on it's 3rd custom barrel & 2nd custom stock. In the nearly 40 years since my 1st bolt action I have owned over 100 some shot some didn't. I think what has improved has been more the shooter's equipment & the availabiity of good information. I how shoot off a good solid perminate bench rest with a good set on shooting bags on a safe range. I did not realize it but my 1st m700 had a from the factory 2.5# crisp pull. I have read both Handloader & Rifle for 20+ years & I am sure that has improved my groups by a minimum of 1/4".

Thanks Dober.I never said Good BS`ing didnt take talent and acknowledge it.Gives me something to strive for!!!!

It's my opinion that the improvement in the accuracy of todays guns and loads is real. Partly because bullets are better, partly because barrels are generally better, and partly because we shooters/reloaders are better at putting together more accurate ammo. As an example, my own reloading skills have improved greatly over the past decade or two. Heck, twenty years ago I knew little about how to build straight ammo or why it was important. Guys like M.D. also played a very large roll in educating all of us regarding precision reloading as did the bench rest crowd.

The phrase that says it all is: "...the gun shoots 1/4" groups when I do my part." That is Internet code for "I once shot a 1/4" group."

As a former silhouette and BR shooter, I know that regardless of the intrinsic accuracy of a firearm, very few shooters have the skill to shoot a 1/4" group, period. When they do shoot a group that small, it really is a fluke. I challenge anyone who thinks their rifle is a 1/4 moa shooter to shoot four consecutive five-shot groups and post them. No "alibis", no discounting for wind, just the raw average. This will tell us what that shooter/rifle combo can produce on demand.

And really, isn't that what matters? Who cares if a .22-6mm varmint rifle built by a noted 'smith can shoot a 1/4" group once and awhile - what matters is can he do it in the field when shooting varmints? Tiny groups shot on occasion make for great bragging rights on-line, but I know from experience that few shooters have rifles or the skill level capable of reproducing what they claim.

Disclaimer: I also know that such shooters exist, I've lost matches to them!


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The internet has allowed the average Joe gun owner to dish out the same crap some of us have been reading for years.

Where's Denton (on statistics)? Three shot groups are statistically pretty shaky, meaning it's not hard to find a good one to show on the 'net. Now if you put eight to 10 shots inside an inch you may be on to something.

While 3 shot groupd may be statistically insignificant (um......bullsh$t) shooting enough of em will give you a good idea what the rifle is capable of. Three shots tell what the rifle is capable of, five shots or more tell you how good the shooter is at reading the conditions. Unless your shooting in a tunnel it's gonna be tough to get five shots off under the same conditions.

The ones that crack me up are those who will post a photo of a group claiming it to be 1/4" when you can see plain as day (without measuring) the group is quite larger. Then the poster gets insulted when you politely inform them their measurement is "slightly" off.

Just because some guys can't take home the prom queen don't mean others can't.

BTDT.

Part of the problem is that so many people think shooting a 1" group @ 100 yards makes a rifle 'a MOA gun'. It doesn't. Even if a rifle consistently puts down 3 shot groups that come in a little under 1" the odds are overwhelming that it is not a 'MOA gun'.

I'm talking groups, not quickly shot strings.

When a man shows me a target where he has the impact point of all shots within a 1" circle CENTERED AT THE DESIRED SIGHT-IN POINT, then I call it a MOA gun if he can repeat it more times than not and they are 5 shot groups.

I've seen exactly 2 rifles in my life that will do that with factory ammo. One would only do it with one specific load/brand. I've seen one other that might just be one. It hasn't been shot enough to be sure. They are all three Remington and they are all magnums, strangely enough.

Will

I once have shot a 0.5 inch group, and a 0.7 inch group! If I take my time, watch the parallax issue that exists in every scope, wait until the barrel is completely cooled min 15 minutes or better between shots during the summer, shooting in the shade, once in a while I am rewarded by a 0.5 inch group at 100 yards...I cannot shoot worth a chitt, but there it is! Most of my groups are just banged out and they hover around 1-1.5 inches for 3-5 shots depending. Most important to me is that I go to the range and every time I shoot the rifle hits where I expect it to hit.

I like a rifle as accurate as possible but would rather have a 1.5" rifle that was consistent day in and day out than a rifle that requires one bullet over one load with all of the stars to be in alignment to shoot 1/4" groups.