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Religion shouldn't be taught in a publicly funded school - any religion. Nor should it be attacked. It should be completely irrelevant to public learning.

When you start actually reading my posts and comprehending what I'm writing, we'll have something to discuss.

Until then, you and JOBAMA can snuggle up to each other and be content in your ignorance.

I could care less whether you believe any religion...Not my problem, but to adhere to our Founding Father's document, otherwise known as the Constitution, a person should at least be able to hear both sides of an argument, if their tax dollars are paying for it.

If we have to listen to your crap, at least listen to the rest of the story.
You're expecting everyone to lockstep with athiest in the name of science, but you're violating christian beliefs in the process. That is not freedom of religion, which is different from freedom from religion.

If you can interpret the constitution, I fail to see what you're whining about.

Since the actual text of the OK bill was not posted, mere opinion is all that this discussion was based on, not the actual bill, which like most bills, can vary greatly depending on who's telling the story.

Health Care Reform over the last several weeks should have taught you that.

Slowly you're getting it Tod.......

Forcing Darwin on children in school, without the Christian alternative, which is all that this country was founded on, is an attack.....

That is the point.

I don't believe that public school should be bible study either, but blindly denouncing it has proven to be utter failure as well.

Look at what our society has become since the athiest movement has taken hold over the last 40 years. Can you really say that children these days are better mannered, crime is less, stealing is on the decline, and we are better off as a society for it?

Our nation is an utter failure and moving at a rapid rate of worse. Coincidently, there's been a serious movement amongst folks like yourselves to remove religion everywhere, not just in schools.

How serious are you about removing religion from your life Tod?

Are you going to start working on Sundays, rather than Mondays? Ohh wait, you'd best throw the calendar out the window, since that whole BC/AD thing is gonna cramp your style, to say nothing of the whole calendar.
What year is it anyway?
Christmas is gonna go downhill fast, as well as Easter. Don't be captilizing on any of those after-christmas sales either.
Your marriage is kind of null and void now too, but that's okay, since you can be an adulterer and it's fine. Go kill some conservatives while you're at it, since law means nothing, simply because its based on scripture.

Evolution is science. Not religion. It has facts to back it up.

Most of the founders were deists, as were many of our prominent citizens (back when espousing atheism was socially unacceptable, and even punishable.

I look at most Christians and all I see is hypocrisy. When was the last time you visited someone in prison? Gave someone your clothing? Fed them a meal? Or did you just flip off the bum on the corner holding up the sign that said 'hungry'?

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.



Have you given away all your possessions? Matt 19:21



I work on Sundays all the time. I often work Sundays for someone who wants to have the day off to go to church.

Calendar? It's already done: BCE and CE, although I don't use them



Christmas is a co-opting of the pagan holiday Saturnalia, and it bears more resemblance to that pagan celebration than to a man who preached non-materialism. Jesus, if he really existed, was probably born in September or possibly October. But pagans didn't want to give up their winter festival, so Christianity co-opted it



No. Marriages are civil ceremonies under law. A religious figure like a priest can marry someone, but that marriage is still sanctioned by the state. And plenty of people get married outside of the church



Religion is not required for law. Ever heard of ethics? And if religion really kept people from committing crimes, why are their so many Christians in prisons, and so few atheists.

I can't tell if you are serious or just plain silly

Good post. I agree with the first part- which I just deleted for brevity- that "liberalism" has had some real, negative consequences. When you remove structure, even flawed structure (as I believe Christianity to be), people are left in a void, potentially, and that's not good.

The second part of your post, above, brings up an interesting point though. You are saying that since law is based on scripture, therefore if you remove the scripture from public life the law then means nothing.

First, that's nonsensical. Whatever laws are based on- a Constitution, a Bible or Koran, or the ravings of a lunatic dictator- it's the enforcement of them that is important if you want them to be followed. Our laws will do just fine without being overtly bound to Scripture, and, in fact the rule of law would suffer greatly if BOUND to Scripture.

But more importantly your thoughts evade the topic at hand. It isn't whether we are a Judeo-Christian-based society; obviously, we are. It's whether teaching matters of faith in public schools makes any kind of sense. It doesn't. By way of illustration, read the references to Indian and Hindu creation myths I posted earlier. What some here are saying is this:

There are 10 different children in a science classroom. As it turns out, they are of 10 different religions. The teacher asks a question on the test. EACH of those children can answer a SCIENTIFIC QUESTION 10 different ways- according to their religion- and according to the law that Tod posted, the teacher has to give the a high grade for their answer. Why? Because they answered from their faith, and by golly we can't run the risk of offending anyone or implying that their religion, written by people thousands of years ago, might be factually WRONG on some matters.

Does anyone else see the hypocrisy of moaning about everything needing to be politically correct these days... complaining about falsly buttressing kid's "self esteem", but yet pandering to flat-world non-reality so as to not offend some religious zealots?

It seems that many here miss the point on both sides of the issue.
What part of "shall make no law" do you not understand?
If they tell us it is not allowed they have broken the law and violated our rights under the Constitution.
If they tell us we can they have broken the law and violated our rights under the Constitution.


Pat

so by teaching science it violates the rights of christians. but teaching the bible doesnt violate anyones rights, huh?
like any of the other few hundred relgions in this country?

I disagree. Religion should be taught, at the high school level or higher, in the same way you'd teach about other cultural, humanistic issues. Teach it as "History of Religion", or, "The Effects of Religion on Human History", or "An Overview of the Major Religions of the World".

As I said before, if religion was appropriatly taught there'd be a lot more people that'd be open-minded about it, and that's a good thing.

I don't mean, teach A religion. As you say, none of them are any more, or less, valid than any other. Teach kids (who want to take the class) about religionS. Help them see why religion is such a common denominator in human history. Show them how the mysteries of the world can be approached from many different angles, not just the Christian angle.

As a side benefit, at least some "indoctrinated" kids would see the light and realize that they'd been duped into believing in the Easter Bunny all these years.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

It needs to be spelled out in the full context.

If a public school is singling out a single religion for deferential treatment, it is 'establishing a religion'. If the school teaches every religion, or none at all, then there is no problem.

Since it seems impractical to teach every variation of the creation myth under the sun, teaching none at all appears to be the only Constitutional alternative.

What happens at home, or in privately funded schools is up to them.

The idea is equal protection under the law, regardless of race, religion, national origin or social class. That is one of the fundamental tenets of American culture.

Teaching a survey of religions wouldn't be a bad idea, I suppose. But I'm sure someone would eventually complain if their particular flavor didn't get represented the way they like. College seems like a better place.

That being said, I had 4 years of religion in high school, and another 4 in college. Of course it was a private Catholic school. And look how well that turned out.

In America, the problem is the Christians, so that's why I'll pick on them right now.

You are incorrect because if, for example, Christians want to put up the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, that is a tacit expression of a state religion.

It's not un-Constitutional to prevent that. It's un-Constitutional to attempt to put them up in the first place. Stopping that action is not making a law to establish a State religion, it's preventing a State religion from being established.

Likewise, in the schools. Kids in school are the ultimate captive audience. Captive to WHO? Ultimatly, captive to the State. Therefore, to introduce a religion is to impose a religion upon this captive audience. For the State to impost a religion upon them is un-Constitutional. For the State to impose ALL religions on them is unworkable.

"Our firm belief is that there are 2 types of people... those that love jesus and those that dont"
[video:youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac[/video]

Yeah, I've NEVER understood why religious people want to let the nose of the Government camel into their tent. The two seem toxic to each other. You want to create some athiests... teach a religion in the schools! Presto.

We accept that 2+2=5 and wonder why I can't find a decent US born engineer to hire out of college.

Nah, they would make something and just pray it was going to fit!

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" ~ Martin Luther

'nuff said

When a person actually, deep down believes in God, then there is no belief about it. He or she actually KNOWS that God exists, and knows far beyond a belief.

People can say they believe anything, and many do, but actually knowing is so different from believing that the two words could be from different languages.

I don't have to believe God exists, or believe the Bible or believe in Jesus Christ.

I KNOW God exists, I KNOW the Bible is true, from the first word to the last, and I KNOW that Jesus Christ is real.

For a long time, I did believe, but now I KNOW.

Forgive the repeat.

Does anyone else see the hypocrisy of folks moaning about everything needing to be politically correct these days... complaining about falsly buttressing kid's "self esteem"... but yet pandering to flat-world non-reality so as to not offend some religious zealots?

Christians need to buck up! For Pete's sake, stop whining about this stuff. So your religion is in conflict with Science... so? Deal with it! The problem isn't the science, it's that you subscribe to nonsensical beliefs based on a document written thousands of years ago.

If I was gonna be Christian I would approach it in such a way as to accept the actual spiritual parts, which are beautiful and I really mean that, but see the silly fairy-tale stuff for what it was. And, in fact, I find that type of Christian to be admirable.

But the fundamentalist, literal, every-word-of-the-Bible-is-truth people? Puh-LEASE! Not gonna stand by and let them take over this country. They can go pair up with the Taliban in Pakistan if that's how they want to live. To pander to them is just plain obscene if you care about any kind of... of... reality.

Was that blunt enough?

Or we can just pussify our society pandering to everyone who doesn't like reality.

Trouble is out there somewhere there are several million Muslims who feel the same way about Allah, not to mention all the other faiths and religions and the default way of working out who is right and wrong seems to be to slaughter each other..

But getting back to the original thread...long and short of it is I don't want anybody teaching/or foisting their religion on my children while they are in school...Not teachers and not other kids...Keep religion to your home life and don't broad cast it around school...