Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Shotgun slugs vs bears

I know this has been discussed before,but hear me out. This year, for bear defense while hiking,camping and bowhunting, I will be packing a 12.5" barrel 12 guage shotgun. I want to use slugs,not really impressed by buckshot so far. Also not very impressed by the penetration of Foster slugs, which is all I've ever used. The barrel is not rifled,though I suppose I couold find a rifled tube for it if it was worth while. Remeber,this gun is strictly for self defense against both black bear and grizzly and the range would likely be 10 yards or less. All I care about is penetration and damage. The problem I have is that here in Canada,it can be hard to find some of the more exotic stuff. Otherwise, I'd buy some of the Dixie slugs and look no further,as I've seen nothing to compare to them. I've seen Challenger,Lightfield,rarely some Brenneke's and of course all the cheap foster styles locally. There's a good selection of saboted stuff, but I don't know how they would perform out of a smoothbore,even at 10 yards. What would you chose in my situation?

Try one of the copper slugs. If you can hit with it from a smooth bore, you are golden.

Stay away from the light foster's slugs. I've seen a Brenneke break a hip and penetrate ~3 1/2' of deer. Can't really speak to the others

One word:

Brenneke

12.5" barrel..... with all the tough gun restrictions in Canada, and they let you use a short barrel like that?

Anyway, Copper solids, or the Hornady loads will be great.

+1

Even sideways from hitting brush, they will still penetrate.

I tried some sabot slugs labeled "for rifled barrels" the other day in a nonrifled barrel. They were certainly correct. They went through the target sideways at about 10 yards. Read the package carefully whatever type you try.

Are the Challenger slugs as good as the Brenneke's,as they are supposed to be a "brenneke style" slug? I know I can get them here, whereas the Brenneke's might be difficult to find. Also, I've heard some good things about the Federal Tru-Ball slug,does anyone have any experience with it, or have any idea how it might perform?

It's kind of surprising that we're allowed these short shotguns here, but as long as they come from the factory at over 26" they should be legal. Actually, there's an 8.5" barrelled one coming out this summer,but that's a bit too short for my comfort.

Shotguns IMO are the most over rated charge stopper/killer in the world!

A load of double 0 buck at 5 yards is deadly, and thats about it IMO..I just wonder how many, who have not been there before, can let a Bear or Lion get that close before pulling the trigger..

I'm not impressed with what I have seen! but be my guest..I'd opt for a carbine big bore rifle myself or perhaps a big bore pistol.

Years back, it was within my job description to dispatch more than a few base camp marauding pestiferous Black Bear in the remote river basins of the far Yukon.

Sometimes it was really not practical go get the 303, or the '06 and a shotgun was used. Double ought buck dittos, if that's the way you HAVE to go.

I found that slugs tended to ball up in the hair, and repeatedly had to EMPTY the 5 shot mag tube in the ubiquitous 870 "Camp Gun". I dunno if we had "Foster Slugs", or not.

One Black Bear actually died in my tent, head bonked with a .410 slug,........but the muzzle of that little Savage O&U was almost touching his brows.

I'm glad we were never troubled in those camps by big bears, I have had the opportunity to dismantle one big adult Grizzly, since,........and in studying the connective tissue and gristle therein, learned quite a bit.

Until you've done so you'll probably remain enchanted with the concept of shotgun slugs.

I'll be thanking my lucky stars i've never had to deal with an aggressive Grizzly with SBS, and no more than ANY damn slug!

GTC

Hello All
The Challenger is loaded with the Gualandi slug which features a plastic tail section comparable to a Brenneke. The ballistics look to be 1&1/8oz @1600fps but I don't know how hard the slug is made. Foster type slugs from Fed, Rem, and Win are very soft so they deform as they go through a chocked barrel. Brenneke slugs are harder but have wider spacing between the ribs to allow them to pass through a choke, this hardness allows them to penetrate an animal much better. With 90% of my deer hunting done with a slug gun I have tried many types of slugs and often found Foster slugs to not exit even on broadside deer. The only smoothbore slug gun I still own is a 870 w/19"IC rifle sighted barrel, at 50yds I can put all 5 3" Black Magic Magnums from Brenneke into 5" pretty darn fast. I don't know how well they would stop a bear charge, but do know that a frontal shot on a deer left a 3-4" exit hole in the back of the left rear ham after breaking the left hip. Theese slugs are 1&3/8oz and leave the muzzle of my 870 at 1438fps avg for 5 shots over a F-1 Chrony.
Hope this helps. Nelson

Seriously? A pistol over a shotgun?

That's a problem right there. If you don't know, you probably had Fosters. They are the cheapest and most common slugs. Hollow Fosters are in no way comparable to the solid Brenneke slugs.


I've never seen any commercially loaded slugs other than Fosters in the .410.

I understand those Gualandi's are suitable for dinosaur.

How many Grizzly bears have you dismantled?

I have but the one, very humble encounter to fall back on.

I know QUITE a bit more about the soft target a "Deer" represents.

Tell me you've knocked down a fair number of Horribilus, and I'm all ears.

But I will comment that cutting up a truck tire's got nothing on butchering a grizzly.

GTC

There's a town in middle Georgia where they have a grizzled butcher. He's worked over a buncha hogs, some from me. All passed into the afterlife with buckshot from a petite 20 ga pump.

Having shot a fair array of stuff with Forster slugs, I'll say they aren't real impressive on penetration, but certainly do make a satisfying sound when they hit most anything. Nice crisp "WHOP!". Most times it's followed by an immediate 'thud', but still, hogs ain't bears and that's a fact. Wouldn't want to face a big bear with Forster slugs from anything less than maybe a 4 bore. OTOH, I wouldn't be taking a single step in reverse if loaded with buckshot, and yes, I can wait until they're close. You're not going to have time to wet your pants in the time they move from 50 yards to 5-10 yards anyway. Only thing required in learnin' how to use buck is go out and pattern the gun. Then remember what happened later on.

12.5" barrel huh? Might not pattern fer chitt(ok), so maybe..I dunno, put choke tubes in it? (I would, but I'd not be using such a short barrel either) Geesh....wait 'til they're within 3 yards?

You know that 12 bore round balls penetrate pretty well, right?

Looked over the Dixie Slugs website and noticed they have both a 3" and 3 1/2" 12 ga load with three .60 cal balls. Pattern within inches of each other at 50 yds.

Was referring to a 12 BORE ball, as in ~.729", and about 580 grains. I dunno what a .60 caliber ball will do in 12 bore, I do know what a bore caliber ball will do...hardened up a bit and they'll penetrate like crazy...and leave a wound channel Helen Keller could find. If you hand load you could do something with this, otherwise, I've mostly covered my thoughts.

I'd love to shoot the Dixie stuff, unfortunately it's not available in Canada.
I don't get hung up on whats doing the shooting,much more interested about what comes out and how fast. A 600 gr bullet, of .60+ calibre, at 1500 fps sounds like bear medicine to me. Almost anyone would agree, till you tell them your shooting it out of a shotgun,at which point it becomes anemic and weak. I think the many years of nothing but dead soft Foster slugs has got most people convinced all slugs are equal,and therefore unsuitable. As I stated originally, I don't like Foster slugs for this application and will not use them or buckshot on bears.
Hopefully I can find a few suitable types of slugs this spring and do some penetration testing. I'm curious to see how the 12.5 inch barrel affects velocity,accuracy and penetration.

I'm a bit curious on the 12.5" barrel myself.

Go with the Challenger, if it shoots in your 12 you'll be fine... and the bear won't!!!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Supposedly the game officers who killed the 2 griz that ate Timothy Treadway used 12ga slugs. But they emptied both guns, as I recall.

You REAL sure about the ballistics you just called out ?

....outta' a 12 ga.,....... 12" barrel ?

I'd TEST them a whole lot, .....before I went to making that claim.

If it's on the level,...big medicine indeed.

GTC

Uh, the ORIGINAL Brenekke is still available in 410 stateside, its the other gauges that are not, at least not in the Original config..

I know jack on bears, but I have shot many deer with Fosters, Brennekes and some sabots. The fosters go splat, penetrate less, but up very close that much lead, even soft lead can be sheer hell.

The biggest thing the large lead slugs lack is stability, in the muzzle, in flight and especially in meat. Up close they are hammers, but shed all ballistic power as range factors in.

The Brenneke with hardened alloy is a monster inside 50 yards on deer; will zing through both shoulders or come close to lengthwise. When range is slightly extended, nada. Past 75 yards you are sometimes only breaking one shoulder, on a DEER.

Someone said a handgun rather than a slug: dude, modern sabot slugs in rifled tubes are essentially 45/70's with jacketed bullets, albiet very short, Hollow Pointed ones with low SD.
These don't always exit deer either and are oft apt to tumble.

BRI made a hardened hourglass sabot for LE for breaking concrete UP CLOSE.

Again, no REAL bear input, just some slug input.

I'm not sure what velocities will be out of a 12.5 inch barrel,but I'n sure I'll lose a fair bit. Still, at rock chuckin distance I think it'll be enough. Lightfield slugs were also brought to my attention as some real snot-flingin stompers,so I'll see if I can track some of them down for testing as well. I have a feedlot next door that usually has some good size steers die and go to the dead pile,so when it warms up maybe I'll head over there and try busting some shoulders.

I was wondering about the short barrel as well.

I'm at work - no access to regs here. But I THINK a barrel has to be longer than 16 inches in Canada to be legal.

I know I'm in a minority here - but I'd rather use bear spray - than what you are thinking about.

For a manufactured manually operated rifle or shotgun (not semi auto) the barrel can be pretty close to anything and be legal, as long as the entire firearm is still 66 cm. However, you can't modify (cut down) a barrel less than about 18"

These 8.5" barrel shotguns are manufactured by Dlask Arms and are completely legal, however I believe they need ot have the full stock on them to be considered "unrestricted" and meet the 66cm rule for use off a range.





As for slugs, the Brennekes kick arse over Foster slugs. Challenger slugs I have not used, but heard good stuff about them and their design looks good.Buckshot is useless for your purposes except at pretty much point blank range.

I wouldn't worry about velocity loss from a 12.5" barrel over say an 18" barrel...You aren't going ot be shooting past 50 yards at a charging bear, and more likely it will be 25-30 yards

All legal in Canada_

[img]http://pics.livejournal.com/fearsclave/pic/001cd406[/img]





[img]http://www.canadaammo.com/images/D/IMG_0126.JPG?1264714076303[/img]

Ironbender,
Yes, seriously a pistol over a shotgun, at least that way I can pump 6 into him while he's eating on me!

I would like to know how many of you shotgunners have stopped a charging bear with a shotgun! I don't doubt that it can be done, but it will never be by me as I am going to have a carbine 416 Rem or something in the way Win. Mod 71 in 450 Alaskan if I am in big bear country, where such a thing can take place. If I am fishing then a 44 mag. 6 inch loaded with hot 250 gr. hard cast Keith simi wadcutters and I will shoot at point blank range for the brain..

I love a shotgun for quail!

+1 on the big-bore carbine.

This being Canada,we can have short barrel shotguns without restriction, but cannot carry pistols. If I could I'd pack a revolver in .454 or similar, simply because it's handier to carry. If I had to pick one or the other to face down a charging bear, I'd go with the shotgun. I'd prefer an auto to prevent short stroking and for faster follow ups but the pump should work. I am trying to figure out what to use for penetration and damage testing, and then I'll test the shotgun against my .444,.375 and 356 lever actions. From the testing I've seen others do I expect that with the proper slugs the shotgun will rule the day.

I would think that any of the lever guns loaded with hard cast would rule the day, myself.

I've only used slugs on deer and would vote Brennekke.

I have. It was a DLP kill.

I've done three DLPs in the last 8 years. Two were done with a shotgun loaded with Brennekes and one was done with a .375. The Brennekes passed through like a hardcast bullet and the bears just flopped out on the ground and died.

The other two guys in the department probably have a couple kills apiece all with Brennekes.

I have had to go crawling around in the alder bushes several times for bears, and never once have I ever doubted my abilities or the gun.

Thanks for the reply Steve, it's always good to get some reassurance from someone who been there/done that.
I still plan to do the testing, just for curiosity sake and to see what the differences will be.

This was the small DLP bear which stopped this slug:



at 2:00 AM earlier that day, not very impressive for a 20" 870 at 30 yards IMV. No major bones were damaged on the broadside shoulder shot.

(The bear loped off $___ing himself, but he never lost his feet from the shot.) He was dispatched by a couple of 300 grain bullets from a 45 Colt; they penetrated completely.




This bear was stopped instantly by a 350 grain NorthFork bullet from a 45-70. The distance was 246 yards measured. The bullet penetrated completely including the far shoulder.

There was an author from BC that did quite a few tests, and wrote a detailed book on bear encounters and defence. As with all defence, a shotgun is deamed preferable when loaded with buck, as it gives the most inexperienced shooter a high probability of a hit. This same author had set up a tire or a 5 gallon bucket on a cable and realeasd it so it moved toward the shooter at 50 yards the same speed a bear would charge. The shooter was to hit the bucket several times with the shotgun. Most folks that did not shoot much could not do it. The shotgun was an 870 simular to a police model, with ghost rings, and an extended magazine, loaded with buck and slug, buck and slug. The recoil from this was more than most could handle as well. He also claimed, through tests, that the common 12ga slug was not suitable for stopping a charging bear, as it did not penetrate far enough. Even a moderate round was found to penetrate better than the big slug. Handguns here are illegal to carry, but there are those who can receive a special permit to carry while working. There are others who carry, and forgo the permit. There is a don't ask, don't tell policy the farther north one goes. This still leaves the problem of what to carry for bear defence. The best answer I can offer is something than can, and should, be shot to resonable accuracy by all parties. It should be added that in many defence cases the object is not to kill the bear, but just to get it to go away. This is unfortuate to some, as it does leave a mess for others to clean up, but at the same time, may save the party from a toothy/clawy attack.

R.

Had a beer with him once,....

.....he's from Alberta.

Steve Herrero.

Link: http://www.ucalgary.ca/evds/herrero

I think thats the guy. Well done. Its been a long time since I read any of his stuff. I did come across this as well.

Good info from the US Forest Service


R.

A common 170 grain bullet in a 30-30 out-penetrates 00 and 000 buckshot in the tests I've done. I do not use buck at all. A hit means nothing except if it is meaningful. Other than that is almost certain to be detrimental.





In Alaska, the laws specifically state that one should shoot to kill when things finally come down to shooting bears. Deterrents in the form of noise makers, flash-reports, and non-lethal projectiles are okay, but shooting lethal projectiles at a bear are expected to be used only to kill the bear. They don't want the problem of issues later.

you're a big boy so you can do what you want, but this is silly talk, IMO.



No doubt in my mind that a large bore rifle is the fire arm of choice, but that wasn't the OP's question.

[quote=Rman]I think thats the guy. Well done. Its been a long time since I read any of his stuff. I did come across this as well.

Good info from the US Forest Service


R. [/quot

He's more'n likely retired, and laying low,....

unless a Bear ate im'

GTC

One must than assume that it's OK to feel like an idiot, while being eaten, and rendered into Bear Manure,...?

I hope you;ll forgive me for pointing this out,.....B.C. Bears are not impressed by South Side Chicago Gear.

They EAT your horses, and cattle.

GTC

It looks like those were Foster-type slugs. Brennekes are a whole different animal.

For anyone to suggest that a 2 ounce slug from my 10 bore BPS will not deter a bear is just funny. In a 12 bore the 1&3/8 Brennekes will kill anything in NA that walks.

"Good" info from the Forest Circus? I am LMAO. I live with them. They are refusing to log so the pine bark beetles will kill the whole west, they can't keep the trails clear, they have a bunch of EEOC mandated 90 pound females running around in pickups who could no more build a stone wall or handle a two man crosscut than Nancy Pelosi. It is obsolete and should be abolished (along with the BLM) and the land returned to the states.

We need back the ALL MALE CCC, run by the military to get the dropouts out of the cities, under a firm hand and contributing to something besides the drug trade. It was one of few of the New Deal programs that actually worked and was done FAST.

When the Taliban takes over...well you figure it out.

I have read all the suggestions from these people, and it is quite evident most have never seen a grizzly in the wild let alone shot one. I have seen them in Alaska but never shot one, and never would, they can run 40 Mph. a human in top running condition can do about 20 Mph on a smooth track.
the bear can do his top speed in the forest. I don't have a clue what bullet would be best for bear but I think a hard bullet that would not break up on tough hide,muscle and bone would be needed. they are not thin skinned like a deer where about any bullet will do. so any bullet for African dangerous game should do. forget about soft lead as it will break up MOST of the time and you will be bear food.

What about 12 ga. with sabot and Revolver bullets.I think I have seen them with 250 gr Hornadys and a Barnes bullet,not sure on weight.

Sabots generally don't work well in smooth bore barrels. The ones I've seen tended to keyhole even at very close range. Also, I don't there's any advantage going to a lighter bullet, though a heavy solid copper bullet might be interesting.
I realize there's lots of factors to consider in a bear defence gun, and alot of that has to do with where you are and what your doing. The places where I am likely to encounter bears are Alberta and maybe B.C. The bears here are not going to be as large and heavy as Alaskan bears, at least not usually. It's also unlikely I'll ever need to use the gun, but of course it's important to have one when you need it. Something else to consider for me was the fact that I'll be camping and sleeping in a tent a fair bit, so I need something that can be used in those circumstances. The 12.5 barrel will be considerably more handy than even a 20" carbine,which is my only other choice.
I don't by any means think a 12 gauge is the best possible bear defense gun, but for my specific situation I think this gun is close to ideal. First, at $300, I can afford it. Second, it's not a pretty gun to start with so I don't mind dragging it through the bush,which means it's more likely to be with me when I need it.Third, being so short, it'll fit down inside my pack for when I'm in area's where I don't want to broadcast the fact that I have a gun. Also, the guns is of a proven reliable design so I feel I can count on it. My other choice, a .444 lever action, has jammed on me in the past in a hunting situation. It happened only once, and I believe I know what the problem is but it still makes me uncomfortable. Lastly, I believe the 12 gauge,at true self defense ranges, is adequate with the proper ammunition. From what I've read so far, that means at least a Brenneke slug. I think there are better slugs out there, but not easily available,especially to me in Canada. Still, I'm going to try to get some and do a bit of testing.

Stick to your gun, xxclaro. A 12.5-in Remington 870 (hope that is what you're talking about) loaded with five Brennekes can save your bacon if set up right and run correctly.

You didn't say how your shorty would be stocked. I recommend against a pistol grip only or one of the AR-type folders.

Pistol grip only shotguns look badass but are hard with which to HIT something repeatedly.

Get the tiny little Hogue stock designed for kids and it will be within a half in. or less as short as a collapsed AR style. And it won't smack you in the chops when your\ are trying to run it fast.

At defensive ranges, a short barreled shotgun (any defense SG)should have an XS Big Dot Tritium bead JB Welded over the standard bead. Forget ghost rings, you are building a "get off me" snubnosed fighting shotgun.

Don't worry about the minor velocity loss; matter of fact, some would think you might achieve better penetration with a Brenneke at a slightly slower velocity. A hardcast 240 grain .44 at 1,000 fps will usually punch as deep as a .375 softpoint.

I respect Mr. Atkinson's experience, but my experience seeing buckshot deployed in an LE environment tells me buckshot is a weak sister...if it can't penetrate the door of a car how's it gonna bust into a grizzly bear's vitals? They are as soft or softer (depending upon the load) as a Foster slug.

I've shot a crippled whitetail buck with a 3-in. 000 Buck load, dropped it and watched it get right back up again...with steam issuing through multiple holes in the thoracic cavity. Would soil myself if that had been a pitbull, let alone a grizzly.

While I believe our low recoil Foster slugs will work just fine on unarmored humanoids, I would never purposefully engage a grizzly or brown bear with Fosters unless nothing else was available

Shoot your shotgun a lot. I've shot wobble trap several times with my 14-in. work 870, starting with the weapon at low ready rather than shouldered. Make reactively killing with it second nature.

When you are in an area where a bear may prove problematic have it in your hands and secured with a single point sling. In a pack or over slung your shoulder is way too far behind the power curve if you think someone or something might try to kill you.

Finally, if you can afford it, take a pump shotgun operator course from Rob Haught (Google videos for him) He can teach you how to run an 870 fast as a Benelli semi.

It's awesome you folks can have short barreled rifles and shotguns up there, despite the draconian laws on handguns and semis. I am jealous.

If you could cut your Marlin .444 down to 12.5 in and cure it's perceived feeding problem that might be another good choice; especially with some HC 300 grainers in the tube.

P.S. All I've ever killed with a Brenneke, a Black Magic I believe, was a good sized whitetail buck about 10-12 years ago. Used a bead sighted 14-in. 870 and punched him low though both shoulders at 32 yards. He died in two steps with blood gushing out of both sides of the crisply cut LARGE HOLES. But I've killed a whitetail doe that had a healing hole from a Foster in one side of her skinny little neck!

I was planning on looking into the Hogue short LOP stock, as the gun remains legal length with it. The pistol grip makes it too short,and I never really cared for a pistol grip anyway.
As for the single point sling, I'm not sure what your talking about but I'll google it. I was planning on finding some sort of sling that would allow the gun to stay in front of me at about waist level.
The gun comes with ghost ring sights but I'm sure they can be changed easily enough. The only other mod I'm considering is the forend w/flashlight. Seems like it might be handy in the dark if a bear comes looking for an easy snack.
The gun itself is not a Remington, but rather a copy of the Remington that is supposed to be well made and reliable as the original.

I await the ballistic tests from our friend from PA with "lead bullets coming apart". As a point of fact most experts will tell you that a large lead bullet will penetrate farther than any expanding bullet.
Unlike PA, we have lots of Griz bears in WY and they are spreading their range 30-50 miles per year. I have seen many tracks, no bears up close and take some comfort in the fact that no rider on a horse has ever been taken down by a Griz. Regardless, I still carry a 10 bore BPS and S&W 329 loaded with 300 gr hardcasts. Hope to never see this:



As a point of fact, one of the most famous BROWN BEAR guides over on the Kamchatka Peninsula uses a bone stock model 12 Winchester 12 bore with plain old Foster slugs and has killed more bears than any of us will ever see.

If it's already got ghost rings, don't change them. Just saying a big bead is all you need for defense.

But if it was my butt on the line in bear country I would be packing a Remington or a Mossberg 590.

You could probably find an old Wingmaster at a pawnshop and mod it up exactly to your needs and have an uber reliable bear fighting gun for whatever the knockoff is costing you.

Singlepoint slings attach at the junction of the receiver and the wrist of the buttstock. Most usually set them up so the snaplink rides near the solar plexus.

You don't want a long gun flopping at waist level in front of you. The last thing you need when things get mortal is to have a 7 pound shotgun knocking against your C.O. Jones! Kinda distracting and painful.

I don't care if you point it out, they aren't my shotguns.

I use the Hogue shorty full stock on my 14" 870 clone. Works good but you may need to keep your right thumb on the side of the reciever if you are prone to thumb in nose syndrome.

I am not doing any ballistic test for you or anyone else.I also hope you never see a grizzly that close with your feeble armnament espically if you are on a Horse. he probably won't get the horse as it will have enough sense to run away leaving you for the bear to snack on.good luck.

The thought of having to deal with bears like this with any shotgun scares me
I'll take a rifle everytime

You are a wise man. when I was fishing in Alaska I carried a remington 721 30-06 and 220 gr bullets I still diden't want to run into a grizzley. I had one about 100 yds away he was also fishing and watching me. so I went down stream about a mile so I couldent see him any more and we both were happy.

PS; nice bear.

Hmmm, I've seen many hundreds... likely thousands.

Had to shoot some and got to shoot others...

Mr. xxclaro;
I have no experience with grizzly bears to speak of so I find the opinions on your thread interesting reading.

However, as I do wrench on the odd firearm as a hobby, I did work on a short 870 clone that a fellow picked up at Milarm in Edmonton. I am sorry to report that the one I worked on was not the equal of one of the older Remington 870's in terms of reliable functioning.

This particular one had feeding issues and would either not feed the shell out of the magazine or would feed them all at once. Sorry but I can't recall now which it was or perhaps it was both at different times.

I played with the two shell retaining arms that parallel the receiver and hold and release the shells out of the magazine and was able to get it to work most of the time.

The temper on them did not feel right to me and they were quite roughly machined I thought, but I'm no expert on such matters by any stretch.

I recommended that he look into getting Remington parts to replace them or at least new ones from Milarm. If memory serves, last time we spoke he had replaced them and it now fed reliably.

Anyway, I�m sure you will do this, but my standard advise to anyone when I�m working on a social sort of firearm for them is to practice with it as much as they can, even with dummy ammo to test for functioning. I�ve been amazed and disappointed at how many I�ve worked on that didn�t function consistently.

Good luck with your bear gun sir, whatever you choose. May you never need it.

Regards,
Dwayne

The only slug that I'd use and/or recomened for big Bears is the wide heat treated hard cast slugs by Dixe Slug in Old Town Florida http://www.dixieslugs.com/index.html


At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Ms. a few years back and I got to witness the Terminator slug in action and it is impressive.



My 416 Rigby with a Federal factory load ammo with te 400 grain Nosler Partition was shot into the same media and pentrated 30" and left about a 1" diameter wound, the Terminator slug which is 730 grains and .730 diametor made ofr rifled slug barrels) pentrated 29" and blew a wound channel nearly 4" in diameter

I would use a Terminator slug with total confidence and I can't say that about other slugs

I'll go along with Phil in his above picture and post, I am pretty darn sure he has shot more bear than those unnamed individuals posting on this thread..I have not shot a lot of bear, but I sure have shot a lot big mean DG in Africa and I have seen the shotgun used on Leopard and Lion, its fine up close in the face of a Leopard but not on Lion IMO...and even on a Leopard they use buckshot over slugs..I have absolutly no use for a shotgun on anything but birds.

How is it at 250 yards in case a wounded bear runs out of the alders into another patch?
They do look like they should do the job.

A shotgun is more a close range weapon IMHO. The reported accuracy at 100 yards with Terminator with a fixed barrel can be 1 1/2" or so. For those that use a shotgun for bear protection it is the only slug that I have ever seen that I would feel comfortable with. It is the same principle as the old Holland & Holland Paradox slugs and they took some impresively large animals with them.

Never said that the slug would replace a rifle

I've looked at that Dixie slug, and wish I could use it. I believe it is for rifles barrels though? Also, they don't ship to Canada,so I'm SOL.
That grizz posted a back there is HUGE! I don't think I'd feel comfortable with any hand held weapon facing that thing. Still, if I had to I'd probably pick a .458 or similar, not a shotgun.
However, the odds of me running into something like that in Alberta are about zero. Most likely is a black bear. The grizzly up here are big, but not usually the size of the Alaskan bears. At least, that;s what I've been told, and the ones I've seen weren't terribly large.
Still, all this talk has got me wondering and questioning my decision. Being that there is nothing I like more than research I have decided that as soon as the weather allows I shall embark on penetration and damage testing of all the firearms at my disposal. I am currently figuring out what I'm going to use as a medium,how to set it up and how to do the testing.
It'll be a few months till it warms up enough to do this, so I'm going to try to collect as many phone books as possible. I'll figure out something to simulate hide,bone muscle etc and try to make it as consistent as possible.

Thinking you could save yourself some time with that. Phone books aren't going to tell you much about what bullets do in flesh and bone. You will find out which bullets will kill a phone book deader.

There's been some good thoughts presented here; your only burden is to separate wheat from chaff. Primary point I'd suggest you reconsider is your initial choice of gun configuration. Probably you can find a more suitable firearm than a shotgun with a 12.5" barrel.

"Primary point I'd suggest you reconsider is your initial choice of gun configuration. Probably you can find a more suitable firearm than a shotgun with a 12.5" barrel."

The "Co-pilot" which is a modified Marlin Guide Gun comes to mind.

Te 730 grain Terminator slug is foe rifled barrels only , bt they make an 870 grain hard ast slug for smooth bores that is intended to be shot in cylinder bores. the IXL slug at 870 grains has good accuracy to 50 yards are so and is also loaed to 1200 FPS in a 20" barrel

Making a dangerous game rifle out of a shotgun is about like making a silk purse out of a sows ear IMO, but notice I say that is my opinnion only...

I wonder how many would feel comfortable hunting Cape Buffalo, Hippo or even Lion with a slug gun, if not comfortable with that I wouldn't hunt the big Alaskan bears with it either, and I'm not comfortable with it..I would much prefer even a light rifle such as a 30-06 with 220 gr. Noslers to a shotgun.

Again only my personal approach to DG hunting, based soley on my personal experience.

Figured as much, but learned something today!

Something of that order comes to mind, no?

You mean, of course, A non-expanding bullet, large, lead, or not?

1942? 10 years older than me? 1952?
"I'm an old man
I got them old man blues."

How interesting to find this thread toady about shotgun slugs for stopping "problem" or charging bears in North America.

I have some 3in Remington 1 3/8 oz BUCKHAMMER slugs I bought for use against problem bears (in CONUS) if it was ever necessary ..... These BuckHammer's weigh a few grains over 600 and generate 3200+ foot pounds of muzzle energy .....

Today I am replacing them with some special ordered Winchester 3inch PARTITION GOLD slugs that weigh 385 grains and generate 3400+ foot pounds of muzzle energy (and 2000fps MV).

I have never killed a bear, and never [yet] visited Alaska or the more wild Canadian lands ....., and certainly respect any Alaskan, Canadian and African big game slayers ..... (hard to knock real experience and successes!)

Black bears and a possible grizzly is what I want to be prepared for. Heck 750#-plus grizzles inhabit those parts of Idaho and Montana I want to hunt or fish or camp.

I have a hard time believing a Nosler Partition of any kind, 50-55-60 caliber and weighing as much as a .375 boolit and generating more than 1 1/2 tons of muzzle energy would NOT do damage to a marauding bruin that was being belegerant!

Once saw on one the "canned teleBision" hunting shows (World of Beretta) a hunter and his guide each shoot a 12-14hundred pound brown bear 2times each with .375H&H's loaded with Federal softpoints (Partition's or other BG boolit) generating 4300+ pounds of muzzle energy. Yes I'm certain about the muzzle energy as it was mentioned on the show and I looked it up on the NET .....

That brownine was killed outside of Anchorage, called on a bear trail with a hand-blown varmint call. Action was indeed fast!!! Bear took less than 3-4minutes to respond to the call, and was shot closer than 40feet as soon as it showed itself, as fast as both men could work the bolts on their .375's.

Bear was dead after shots 3 and 4.

Hevi-Shot makes some slugs out of @Hevi-Steel, and if those projectiles are propelled with enough velocity, should rival any Brenneke slug, or even the other slugs I listed.

Hevi-Shot (Environ-Metal) also loads 00Buck loads in HS, and if they ever offered some 000B "dangerous game loads" in @Hevi-Shot I'd be all over them!

BTW, those "Terminator" slugs definitely sound awsome and should be considered ..... methinks.

But will have to add though ..... in bear country (lower 48 for me) where I'd carry my shottie, I would also be packing a .44M wheelgun for backup.

But in Canada? I'd not hesitate to carry one of those short shotguns if the bbl was long enough to generate the necessary muzzle velocities to drive fast enough any of those heavy shotgun slugs.

However would rather pack a Guide Gun in .45/70, if a bear sighting was inevitable - and even a 20in .375 or .416 or .458 might be better!

OK, understand, the closest I've ever been to any bear is in the Great Smokey Mountain Nat Park. Don't ever plan to stop a charging grizzly in his tracks. But it seems to me there is a need here for a product that doesn't exist. For those wanting to pack a short barreled 12 ga for bear defense I propose one or more of the ammo companies introduce a sabot .50 cal Cast Performance WFN of 400 gr or better. Should be able to get 1600 fps or better out of a 3" version. Bet it would work pretty good on deer & elk type critters too.

Would you settle for 600 gr. at 1500 fps?
Distance (yards) Velocity (feet/sec.) Energy (ft. lbs.)
Muzzle .............1502 ......................3014

Funny that folks want heavy/hard cast "slugs" for their revolver, but shotgun slugs are inadequate at spitting distance.

Brenneke Black Magic

I get your point. RE: A .35 Rem is a hammer in a single shot pistol but marginal in a rifle. All I'm saying is a heavy, wide meplate, hard cast projectile at 45/70 type velocities should address the issues of immediate effect and penetration. Purely speculation.

From what I've seen of the Brenneke slugs, the closer the better, because they shed stability very fast, simply because they are barely stable to begin with.

Most guys don't preach 200 gr. 45's or 180 44's from handguns for penetration.

A 1 1/8 oz. Brenneke Mag of old is wider than it is long/tall (so is the 1 3/8 3"In version now known as the Black Magic), once the fiber wad is removed. What was sheer hell at 25 yds. did goofy things at close to 100 for me, depending on where it hit a deer. Collecting slugs on shoulder shots past 50 yards was common.

Collecting them up close, at almost any angle, was rare.

TIFWIW

A rifle is the best bet, but the OP stated:


For that purpose, there are no flies on 12 guage Brenneke slugs.

For that purpose, leave the pistolas and buckshot at home.

IMO.

As long as one also acknowledges and remembers that there is no magic pixie dust on Brennekes or any similar shotgun fodder. As desirable as a big old 70+ caliber hunk of metal may seem, that also is a limiting factor in their penetration. The Brenneke slugs have pretty much run neck and neck with 405 Woodleigh bullets at 1900 fps in my 45-70 when run through various testing media. I do not find it highly reassuring that a small bear can trap one of the seemingly formidable Brennekes though on a fairly simple shot.

Any decent projectile can work if it can be driven fast enough to penetrate well. The magic, of course, all depends on the barrel's pointer.

Seems to me I read something... somewhere... recently about some agency going away from shotguns and slugs due to bad experiences in the field with Mr. Bruin. Wish I could remember where I saw that. Hate it when that happens.

Lots of good discussion here and I'm glad to see it staying civil.
I should perhaps have mentioned a few other things. Someone suggested a Marlin Co-pilot and believe me I'd love to have that gun! But, this shotgun can be had for around $300, and honestly I can't really afford to spend more than that. It's either the shotgun or an existing rifle. The only one I'd feel equally comfortable with is the .444, and its not one I want to drag through the bush and mountains.
I have a line on some heavy hardcast bullets to load in my .356,375 and .444. These are waht I'll be using to measure penetration and damage against.
I will continue to try toi find a way to get my hands on some Dixie slugs,as these are true hard-cast slugs designed purely for penetration. Going to also look into the Hevi-Shot slugs,as I was not aware they existed.
Again, this gun is purely for self defense,so shots MUST be very close if I want to avoid finding myself in front of a judge! They take that sort of thing seriously here, so I'd better be able to justify the shooting. Also,the ability to slide the gun into a pack completley out of sight when around "civilized" persons is important, and even my 20" barrel levergun won't do that.
I appreciate all the idea's and opinions given here,and will use them to try to do the best I can with what's available to me.
If anyone knows how to get the Dixie's to canada, let me know.

FWIW I keep two guns at camp as permanent fixtures. One is an 870, the other a 45 Colt levergun. I like my 870 for its reliability and speed. It gets shot quite a bit. Most often there are one or two shot loads or Fosters at the front of the line. They work well for "training" purposes and create the desired disturbance near enough to reinforce the message. Mostly that works well enough. As long as one doesn't get caught up in a "gosh, that's a huge hole in the barrel" syndrome, it can be a fine tool. (That may be a danger of the internet; there are always going to be some who think a 600 Nitro is warranted, while others think that they can reason their way out of a situation or surely blast their way out of trouble with a decent bullet in just about anything.) I'm not crazy about such a shorty shoulder weapon, but I understand your need for that sort of thing.

I like to know a couple of things; one, that the weapon is utterly reliable in my hands so I have complete confidence in its functioning. Second, that my ammo is absolutely as reliable as possible. I try, when I can, to shoot only 2 3/4" ammo in the 870 action for defense. The port is the same for both the shorter and the 3" shells. It is the ejector which differs between the field and the magnum actions. Three-inchers can sometimes hang up a bit. As long as you know that you need to do your part well, even a less than "the best" weapon can be useful.

The same is true for rifle ammunition. And handgun ammunition; I know and have heard from too many folks that are unduly impressed that they are carrying "hot loaded hollow points", and won't listen to anything.



I think that's why a guy that used to post here quite a bit used to say something like, placement, boolit, cartridge.

I don't know what a Bear charge looks like at 10yds but at 15 feet his mane hairs are up, his ears will will be laid back flat'er than a ducks in step his lips will be curled back and he'll sound like a big Ole Boar Hog. Throwing a strike there will be just like bowling,you got to hit'em to get'em.You can't talk'em down.

If I had my druthers,I'd druther have a large cal. rifle.

Hell, if I was EVER confronted by a bear on the trail or saw a cub cross my pathway ..... I just hope its more than just two seconds away!

100 yards in front and a couple minutes away would be a huge luxury in either of those scenarios!

Why, with the right caliber and the right bullet "pistolass" are very effective

Were those charge or hunting situations?

That'd be the difference, IMO.

We get quite a few griz in Island Park, especially during the archery elk hunt. I think a lot of them come from yellostone to feed on gut piles. My Dr. alone stitched up two people who were mauled last year and my hunting partner was charged but it broke off when his brother ran towards him cause he had the pepper spray. My friend still shakes when he tells the story and said the bear closed the 150 yards between them in seconds.

Having seen a few griz closer than I wanted to I used to carry my m77 MkII in 350 rem with 250g partitions and a 1-3 power scope. Friends always teased me because they carried mighty 12 gauges with the cheapest hollow point slugs they could find and all I had was my little rifle. I never bothered to argue with them I just kept bringing the rifle.

My current huckleberry picking gun is a 338 rcm with 225g interbonds and a 2-8 VXIII. Although I'm considering dragging my rossi 92 in 480 ruger out and loading it with 420g hard casts. I also carry a smith mountain gun 44 mag loaded with 310g hard casts clocking 1200 fps but even with it I prefer to just stay out of troubles way.

Bb