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Can you imagine those matrix bullets running out of a fast twisted 270 Weatherby magnum? But then again I don't shoot game at 1000 yds anyway.
JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H
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Ran an estimate for the matrix (165)
the most velocity I could get ( staying safe using QL) was
2890 fps
at 500 yards (comparing to the Berger 140 in .264)
Drop is 8.5 MOA and velocity is 2289 fps
Matrix only has in in velocity by 12 fps
at 1000 yards
24.50 moa and 1770 same drop but only 107 fps gain.
not much performance for risking everything on one bullet.
Now since we changed bullets for the 270 I changed to the 139 scenar for the 6.5-06.
safely to 3087 fps
at 500 yards
7.5 moa drop and 2345 fps
at 1000 yards
23 moa drop and 1722 fps
Matrix only has it by 48 fps and that's the only gain and it takes 1000 yards for it to get that tiny gain.
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Now albeit I only played with the QL a little bit.. but overall I think it was a pretty fair evaluation.
I've always wanted a high BC good bullet in 270. More makers need to get to the drawing table to compete with the 6.5's
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You said I forgot Bergers so I used em.
You said you'd need a magnum hull for the heavy matrix.
Why would one put all their eggs in one basket... ala hoping one bullet will work?
BC's woulda been closer... 6.5 still wins no? I dunno....I haven't seen the Matrix yet.....and there is a heavier Berger than 150 now. Hybrid I think.....yeah the comparison with the Bergers is of course valid....we can both cherry pick;but I think your 270 vels are a bit light from a 26" tube...I think the 150 will go over 3000 FWIW. I really do not know how that Matrix bullet changes the game but it simply has to have an effect.Yes for the 175 a magnum hull might make more sense....I think the 165 would do well in the standard case.....not much difference between it and an Amax 162,and guys run those from 7/08's and 280's all the time....no one dumps on those combo's,and I see no reason why a 165 Matrix should not put a 270 solidly into the same class. BC's over 700 have to count for something.... Even with a "win" on paper, I think the field is considerably narrowed now and it would be pretty hard to tell the difference in the field....with many bullets it already is.Practically speaking, if I seriously contemplated shooting animals beyond 600 yards, I'd want a 7mm,just "because"....neither a 6.5 or a 270 would be my choice. I understand the velocity/expansion thing....if you grew up using tough bonded bullets,you could see it very clearly.
Last edited by BobinNH; 02/25/12.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I did a 26" tube for both. Using the same QL set up for both. I know for a fact that the QL is light on the 6.506 results because I've run them well over 3100 safely. However, accuracy isn't there.
I do hunt at distance. mostly I solo hunt now. So I wanted wind bucking ability and flatter shooting to 500-700 yards. Slam dunk for the 6.5-06. The 270 simply can compete.
For 1K I whole heartedly agree the 7's are where it's at.
I did grow up using hard tough bonded bullets. But I've moved away from them for obvious reasons. There's better out there for my applications.
Again, I wish pills makers would catch up with the 270 caliber. Maybe it can't be done I dunno...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ran an estimate for the matrix (165)
the most velocity I could get ( staying safe using QL) was
2890 fps
at 500 yards (comparing to the Berger 140 in .264)
Drop is 8.5 MOA and velocity is 2289 fps
Matrix only has in in velocity by 12 fps
at 1000 yards
24.50 moa and 1770 same drop but only 107 fps gain.
not much performance for risking everything on one bullet.
Now since we changed bullets for the 270 I changed to the 139 scenar for the 6.5-06.
safely to 3087 fps
at 500 yards
7.5 moa drop and 2345 fps
at 1000 yards
23 moa drop and 1722 fps
Matrix only has it by 48 fps and that's the only gain and it takes 1000 yards for it to get that tiny gain.
Oh, I didn't see this when I responded in my last post.....you were ahead of me! Well OK it seems we have somewhat equaled the playing field.....I musta guessed about right at the 2900 velocity from a long tube....looks like they are pretty close. Sure, it's a one bullet thing but my point in the whole exercise was not to take you on personally (you are too smart for that but simply to hopefully demonstrate that the 270 is not the useless, chump change LR cartridge that some on here make it out to be....and maybe draw their attention to the fact that a lot of what we think we "know" is a holdover from bygone days when the technology had caught up to some cartridges, and not others..... Justa couple of years ago, we did not have these 270 bullets, but we do now,and maybe this trend will continue,challenging what we thought we "knew"... Touche! And thanks for your time and effort.....You're a good sport!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I can think of 3 excellent LR bullets that are available, or soon will be, in .277": - Berger EOL Hybrid 170gr 1.52" long 170 grains Recommended twist 1:8.5" Estimated G1 BC: 0.703 Estimated G7 BC: 0.360 - Matrix 165gr VLD - Matrix 175gr VLD That's 3 choices. If your rifle won't shoot one of the 3 bullets accurately, then I'd look to the loading techniques, other cartridge components, or the rifle itself. It wouldn't be hard to get an 8 or 9" twist tube made and twisted onto a decent action. I would think that any of these 3 high-BC .277" bullets would work fine in a standard .270 Win, assuming you used a mag that allowed bullets to be seated out nice and long, and a throat that accommodated same. Here are a couple of our beloved charts *grin*, using JBM, of the 170gr Berger Hybrid (using the BC listed above), 140gr 6.5mm JLK VLD, and the 139gr Scenar: 6.5mm 140gr JLK VLD at 3050fps 600 yards Drop (MOA)-9.0 Wind drift (MOA)3.0 Velocity 2195 1000 yards Drop (MOA)-22.0 Wind drift (MOA)5.7 Velocity 1698 6.5mm 139gr Scenar at 3050fps 600 yards Drop (MOA)-9.1 Wind drift (MOA)3.2 Velocity 2145 1000 yards Drop (MOA)-22.8 Wind drift (MOA)6.2 Velocity 1624 .277 170gr EOL Hybrid at 2850fps 600 yards Drop (MOA)-10 Wind drift (MOA)2.8 Velocity 2136 1000 yards Drop (MOA)-23.8 Wind drift (MOA)5.2 Velocity 1712 And for comparison:
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Jordan .. I agree. But..It still barely beats the JLK.
Part of the argument was also that the 270 is a factory option 10 twist where as the 6.5-06 you need a custom barrel/twist.
Now you're into a custom barrel/twist with the 270.
I'll agree however, that the playing field is more level.
However, the 6.5 has more bullet choices. That in itself still trumps the 270.
I'm sure the bullet makers will catch up with 270 options sooner or later.
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Bob,
yup.. I try to remain level headed and never took it personally.
I contemplated the 270 but couldn't take a chance on waiting for good/better bullets.
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Cocadori, I'd like to see the numbers as well. At least if you're going to be biased, you should back it up. errr... well???
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Get 'em Bob!.........I''m loving it........ Nothin' but crickets chirpin' in your corner... laffin'
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Jordan .. I agree. But..It still barely beats the JLK.
Part of the argument was also that the 270 is a factory option 10 twist where as the 6.5-06 you need a custom barrel/twist.
Now you're into a custom barrel/twist with the 270.
I'll agree however, that the playing field is more level.
However, the 6.5 has more bullet choices. That in itself still trumps the 270.
I'm sure the bullet makers will catch up with 270 options sooner or later. There's no question that if you want to shoot the truly great LR bullets in either cartridge you'll need a custom 8-9" twist barrel, with an appropriate throat. But as a caliber, .277" is no longer at the disadvantage that it once was. Ballistic advantage is purely due to the bullets and barrels made available for any given caliber, and there are finally a few good bullets on the market in .277, with fast-twist barrels to match. A large bullet selection is a good thing, but I have to ask, how many bullet choices does a guy really need? I could happily get along doing all of my hunting with 1 of the 3 options listed above for the LR stuff (the 170gr Berger EOL Hybrid Hunting looks REALLY good), and then an AB, TTSX, or PT for anything I might shoot within 400 yards. I do the same thing with my 7mm rifles. A 140gr TTSX for sub-400 yard work, and the 162gr A-Max for anything beyond that range (I could happily substitute the 168gr or 180gr VLD and 140gr AB, if selection in 7mm was more limited). Those two bullets get the job done for me. I really don't capitalize on the huge bullet selection available in 7mm, and I suspect that most guys likewise choose 1 or 2 bullets to use in any given rifle.
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Cocadori, I'd like to see the numbers as well. At least if you're going to be biased, you should back it up. errr... well??? Ok, you came through and I agree that you are a good sport.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
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With those 170s, the 270 WSM is also looking like a viable long range performer. There's a guy over at SH running the 175 Matrixes in a comp style rig... Pretty cool. But I'd still love a 6.5-06
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Jordan .. I agree. But..It still barely beats the JLK.
Part of the argument was also that the 270 is a factory option 10 twist where as the 6.5-06 you need a custom barrel/twist.
Now you're into a custom barrel/twist with the 270.
I'll agree however, that the playing field is more level.
However, the 6.5 has more bullet choices. That in itself still trumps the 270.
I'm sure the bullet makers will catch up with 270 options sooner or later. There's no question that if you want to shoot the truly great LR bullets in either cartridge you'll need a custom 8-9" twist barrel, with an appropriate throat. But as a caliber, .277" is no longer at the disadvantage that it once was. Ballistic advantage is purely due to the bullets and barrels made available for any given caliber, and there are finally a few good bullets on the market in .277, with fast-twist barrels to match. A large bullet selection is a good thing, but I have to ask, how many bullet choices does a guy really need? I could happily get along doing all of my hunting with 1 of the 3 options listed above for the LR stuff (the 170gr Berger EOL Hybrid Hunting looks REALLY good), and then an AB, TTSX, or PT for anything I might shoot within 400 yards. I do the same thing with my 7mm rifles. A 140gr TTSX for sub-400 yard work, and the 162gr A-Max for anything beyond that range (I could happily substitute the 168gr or 180gr VLD and 140gr AB, if selection in 7mm was more limited). Those two bullets get the job done for me. I really don't capitalize on the huge bullet selection available in 7mm, and I suspect that most guys likewise choose 1 or 2 bullets to use in any given rifle. You and I are on the same page mostly. However, I do often tend to look at the match bullets for many of my endeavors. I like to have a large selection as different rifles like different things err most of the time. I tend to gravitate towards the Powder/Primer/Bullet/hull that the rifle likes best and shoot the tiniest group with the lowest ES. For that reason option are nice. I realize many choose bullet first.
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With those 170s, the 270 WSM is also looking like a viable long range performer. There's a guy over at SH running the 175 Matrixes in a comp style rig... Pretty cool. But I'd still love a 6.5-06 Yeah I've often wanted to build a 270 wsm but the bullets were the hold back. I saw the stuff over on the hide. I gotta tell ya that this year many of my perspectives changed. This 6.5-06 has me tweaked. I was never a fan of the LA but seeing the advantages and options the 6.5-06 gave me with the selection of bullets I'm not sure there isn't anything I couldn't hunt. I was looking hard and long at a 260 rem then the Swede. I about pulled the trigger on the Swede. Talked to Roger and then was sold on the 6.5-06. If I draw the sheep tag in the near future. I'll build the 260 if and only if to reduce weight in as many area's as possible.
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Cocadori, what sorta E.S/S.D do you look for in your long range rigs?
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Call me crazy... but after competing in 1K br for a bit and talking and shooting with many of the best of the best. Their opinions and experience were pretty much always on the money.
10 is the magical number for ES. Or as close as possible to it. Lower don't hurt.
Over the years I'd say I was between 10 and 15 normally.
My best rifles were between 8 and 12. the rifle I shot my best group at 1K with was an "8" rifle.
The 6.5-06 I've been shooting is a "12" rifle.
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Cool, kinda though it'd be in that ballpark. The 243/105 AMAX load I have been running is showing an SD of like 13... But an ES of 30 (the 5 I clocked today.) I'd like to drop it down a bit...
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