Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Korth revolvers - beautiful!

the Korth is a quality revolver, as is the French Manurhin. That one also is spendy, as well as being well made.

German or French? Hmmm.....

Nothing against those Euro wheel guns, but to me the revolver is an American innovation and all mine are made in the USA.

I have no itch for other than S&W, Colt and Ruger revolvers, preferring older ones. Some of mine are custom, all work done by American master craftsmen.

To each his own...

IMHO,

DF

Wouldnt it be a helluva cool deal to get buy Bowen and Linebaugh a cold one or twelve DF?

Gunner

Yeah, Gunner, that would be cool.

Those Linebaugh and Bowen guns are true works of art. And both smiths start with American guns and add good ole American craftsmanship to make them even better.

USA all the way for my wheelguns. Not recruiting, just saying.

IMHO,

DF

Me too Bro, FA, Colt, and S&W here.

Gunner

I forgot to mention Freedom Arms. I've got one of those, too.

DF

Gunner

Somewhere around here I've got an article Gun Tests magazine did on a Korth revolver.
They were very impressed with it's workmanship. But it didn't shoot as well as my old K-38 Smith & Wesson did. Not even close if I remember right.
So, I for one, am not at all interested. E

Me for two.

The engineering is interesting - SA adjustable for weight on the fly, DA adjustable for break (for staging), 'no tools' cylinder swapping, etc. I mostly think the Korth is kinda ugly with its gear shift cylinder release and vent rib. Yeah, I don't really like the looks of Pythons or Diamondbacks either.

Ugly gun.... Apparently matched by an ugly attitude..... Lose lose IMO.

Pretty is one thing, and performance is another. If they cost that much, they'd better have both. But the two I have shot didn't impress me at all. One of the two wouldn't shoot with my S&W 19-3 and neither could shoot with my Python. What's more, both my S&W and Python had better, smoother actions than the Korth.

But like JOG said, the engineering is really cool.

Very easy analogy to compare Korth revolvers and Women.

Gunner

I registered on this forum to contribute to this discussion. I own and shoot a good number of Korth revolvers that I personally imported from Germany on an ATF Form 6. I have a similar number of Manurhin revolvers, and consider their MR73 the only wheelgun able to match the Korth in precision, ruggedness, and durability. I am able to compare these revolvers to a passel of Colt Pythons, Bankers and Police Positive Target Specials and Single Action Armies, as well as a good selection of Smith & Wesson�s best, ranging from prewar Kit Guns to Registered Magnums and a Triple Lock Target.

As a preliminary evaluation of these revolvers, here are some talking points.

• Based on my experience, the quality ratio of Colt to Smith & Wesson is proportional to that of Smith & Wesson to Harrington & Richardson. The Colts are much better made and more precisely fitted, of finer and stronger materials, than Smith & Wessons. I base this statement on the personally observed differences in working internal parts with a diamond file, and wear and peening in contact surfaces with comparable round counts.
• The Smith & Wesson single stage lockup is not nearly as precise as, but much more durable than, the Colt double stage lockup. The Smith & Wesson bolt is softer but less stressed than the Colt bolt. The S&W action is much easier to work on than the Colt action. All the more so for the Manurhin MR73 action, a S&W derivative relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition in models made after 1985. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, I wouldn�t know how to go about it. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.
• The Colt V-spring action as used in the Python with its �Bank Vault Lockup�, is a licensed derivative of the Schmidt Galand patents. (So much for the all-American origins!) As the trigger of these revolvers is pulled, the double hand forces the cylinder against the locking bolt. The harder the trigger is pulled the tighter the cylinder is locked. Consequently, as the cylinder recoils, it compresses the hand, eventually peening it out of spec. This is all the more applicable to Magnum chamberings never contemplated by the original European inventors. The ensuing requirement for periodic maintenance is the price you have to pay for shooting a Python. Its licensed Schmidt-Galand design uses its distinctive �double-headed hand� as a kind of sacrificial element. The hand is stressed past its yield point at the moment of firing and bears the brunt of recoil, because as the combustion gases cause the cartridge case to expand, it briefly locks to the walls of the cylinder chamber and transfers most of the recoil momentum to the cylinder, which in its turn bears upon the hand by way of its interface with the extractor star, which at that moment is tensioned by the trigger being squeezed by the shooter�s finger. In a nutshell, Colt�s factory authorized maintenance procedure allows for one-time stretching of the hand by peening. The second time around, the hand must be replaced with a new factory part. The service interval for this work depends on a variety of factors such as the chambering of the revolver and the use of high velocity ammunition that generates a higher recoil impulse. Unlike S&W N-frame revolvers, Colt�s post-WWII V-spring revolvers do not suffer from excessive wear in rapid double action shooting or fast hand-cocking, because their cylinders aren�t oversized with respect to their chamberings, and consequently do not generate an excessive angular momentum, the brunt of which must be borne by the bolt, the counterpart of the S&W cylinder stop, as it slips into the locking notch of the cylinder, bringing it to an abrupt stop at the moment of lockup. But take it easy while cycling your pre-WWII .38 Special and .357 Magnum Colt Shooting Masters and New Service revolvers.
• The basic features of Colt double action revolvers are well summarized by Grant Cunningham: �Colt revolvers have actions which are very refined. Their operating surfaces are very small, and are precisely adjusted to make the guns work properly. Setting them up properly is not a job for someone who isn�t intimately familiar with their workings, and the gunsmith who works on them had better be accustomed to working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification.� On the other hand, by referring to a copy of Kuhnhausen�s shop manual, I was able to fit a new bolt to one of my Bankers Specials using NSk calipers, S&W screwdrivers, the diamond-coated file of a Leatherman Charge TTi, and a wooden shaft. So I agree that Colt actions are highly refined. I also agree that they require working at narrow tolerances, on small parts, under magnification. But much of that is within the reach of a hobbyist equipped with a $30 manual and $200 worth of hand tools.
• In this regard, Grant Cunningham says: �On a properly timed Colt, the cylinder bolt (which is the piece in the bottom of the frame window) will drop into the cylinder�s locking notch just before, or just as, the hammer reaches full cock (in single action) and just as the sear releases (in double action.)� On the other hand, every Colt double action revolver that I own, including unfired and factory overhauled guns, fails to carry up when thumb-braked in the course of cocking the hammer, though it carries up when the cylinder is free to rotate in the course of cocking the hammer, no matter how slowly I cock it. So either this tuneup represents a factory error, or the factory rightly or wrongly considers this condition normal.
• The Manurhin MR73 is the best fighting revolver ever made, designed as a significantly improved S&W, crucially strengthened at the yoke, ingeniously refined at tensioning the hammer and the rebound slide, and manufactured to the quality standards of 1950s Colts. I have tried the current S&W revolvers. There is no comparison. In a nutshell, an early Python is a better revolver than a Registered Magnum, in the same sense whereby a Ferrari 330 P3/4 is a better car than a Ford GT40. But the MR73 is the only revolver I would take in harm�s way, in the way I would choose the Citro�n ZX over the Ferrari and the Ford for entry in the Paris-Dakar rally.
• American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers. To disparage Manurhin for refining the S&W Hand Ejector instead of following the example of Willi Korth in designing a revolver from scratch, is to disparage Colt for copying Schmidt-Galand designs in the wake of its homegrown failure to develop a robust and reliable double action revolver. The problem with S&W is not design, but quality. Their basic action layout is capable of uncompromising performance, as witness this Manurhin chambered in .32 S&W Long, beating match guns by S&W, SAKO, and Walther. But in order to get a current production S&W to perform like that, you would have to rebarrel it and replace its MIM lockwork with increasingly unobtainable forged parts. And even then, it will not approach the quality of Manurhin�s hammer-forged frame, barrel, and cylinder.
• The SIG P210 remains my favorite autopistol. I consider the Manurhin MR73, the last and best revolver to be designed and adopted for constabulary service, as its wheelgun counterpart. Apart from the gloomy Olivier Marchand [i]polar[/i], my favorite MR73 story unfolded on the day after Christmas of 1994, when Captain Thierry P. of GIGN entered the hijacked Air France Flight 8969 plane, grounded at the Marseille airport. He served as the point shooter, armed with a 5�" .357 Magnum Manurhin MR73 and backed by his partner Eric carrying a 9mm HK05 submachine gun. Thierry killed two Islamist terrorists and wounded a third with his revolver, before taking seven bullets from an AK47 fired by the fourth hijacker. In spite of then absorbing a full complement of grenade shrapnel in his lower body, Thierry P. survived the assault, as also did 171 hostages. Not so the four terrorists, who had been planning to deploy the plane as an incendiary missile against the Eiffel Tower. Thierry could have armed himself with any firearm. He chose an MR73. I have mine at my side right now.
• You cannot appreciate a tool without considering its intended purpose. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds. Although that is no longer the case owing to the worldwide decline of revolvers in constabulary use, throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.
• The Korth is by far the best made modern revolver, comparable in quality only to the best of the pre-WWI classics, from the French M1873, the Mauser M1878, and the Swiss M1878 and 1882. It is equal in mechanical precision to a Target Triple Lock, and far superior to it and the Registered Magnum alike in ruggedness and durability. Among post-WWII revolvers, only the first generation Colt Pythons compare to it in fit and finish. It is arguably the best sporting revolver ever made, as distinct from a social work tool such as the MR73. Its lockwork is hand ground out of steel forgings and deep hardened. It is nowise stressed at ignition, resulting in unexcelled durability and enabling Willi Korth to guarantee the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 Magnum rounds. Its design incorporates some Colt traits such as clockwise cylinder rotation, within an original layout that bears some resemblance to S&W two-point lockup and transport. Its ingenious hand detachable yoke is a great boon to regular maintenance, and its spring tensioned ejector built into the optional 9mm Para cylinder is the best such system that I ever used with rimless ammo in a revolver.
• Aside from an early run of 20,000 2" and 4" 5-shot revolvers chambered in .38 Special and numbered in the 20xxx range, meant for, but not purchased by, the Hamburg harbor police, no Korth revolver has been made for constabulary service. Certain features of its design make it less well suited for such use than its Manurhin and S&W counterparts. To cite just one factor, the stroke of its ejector rod is comparable to that of a snubnose 2�" MR73, and shorter than that of a full-length ejector rod fitted to MR73 revolvers with 3" or longer barrels. Consequently, rapid ejection may leave one or two expended shells hanging at the chamber mouths of the cylinder. I do not consider this trait appropriate for a service revolver. Aside from that, there remains an issue of economies. Arguably the costliest sidearm ever drafted into constabulary service outside of the petrodollar economy, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. The aesthetic sensibility of most American shooters derives from an appreciation of fancy sporting goods and service sidearms meant by their makers to be surplused after firing several thousand rounds. Although that is no longer the case owing to the worldwide decline of revolvers in constabulary use, throughout its history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in delivering the MR73 to GIGN and SIG, the P210 to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants. Whereas Korth takes this philosophy to the point that most casual shooters would disparage with a tinge of fascination, as wretched excess. For many European shooters, this is not the case, in so far as their licensing requirements deny them the option of accumulating numerous handguns. By dint of being limited to a few specimens, they acquire a compelling incentive to invest in more durable goods.
• On the other hand, in my experience, every part on a Korth is significantly more robust than its S&W counterpart. For example, here is an independent testimonial made earlier on another forum, pitting a Korth revolver against a vintage, all-forged S&W M28:
  Quote

  I mentioned the strength of the metal in the Korth as well as the care of the hand fitting. I began some tests of the Korth vs. the M28. At the beginng of the tests the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was just over .0025 while that of the M28 was .003. With just under 200 rounds of heavy hunting loads through both guns the barrel to cylinder gap of the Korth was where it had begun for all cylinders. The M28 however had opended up and varied from .003 to .004. The S&W showed wear and some additional gas cutting on the frame above the barrel from some hot .125 grain loads. The Korth showed no significant wear.
  Please note that the frame size of the Korth falls between those of the K and L frames in the S&W lineup. A 4" Korth Combat revolver weighs 1016g, whereas a 6" Sport model weighs 1175g, as against the 4" and 6" S&W 686 weighing in at 1191g and 1298g, respectively. The Korth cylinder is sized comparably to the cylinder of the late S&W M19, originally known as the Combat Magnum, and takes the same speedloaders. And yet it appears that the Korth withstands the pressures of heavy .357 Magnum loads much better than the S&W N frame. Additionally, the S&W lacks comprehensive single and double action trigger weight and stacking adjustments built into every .357 Magnum Korth revolver. To many European shooters, these factors alone warrant its premium price.
• Korth revolvers are a breed apart. For all its mechanical excellence, the MR73 is fitted and finished like a Seventies handgun. Whereas the fit and finish of Korth revolvers rivals that of an S&W Registered Magnum, if not quite coming up to the standard of a Triple Lock. Speaking of the latter, it was obviously easier for S&W to achieve their superb surface preparation before they belatedly followed the example of Colt by starting to heat-treat their revolvers in 1920. Doing it nearly as well with steel hardened to a remarkable grade of 60 RC is a testimony to the diligence of Willi Korth. Like the MR73, a Korth revolver never wears in normal use, except for the inevitable forcing cone erosion caused by firing Magnum ammo. Every S&W revolver I ever saw suffer a high round count had its cylinder notches thoroughly peened. Every double action Colt revolver I ever tested, including brand new and freshly factory tuned specimens, failed to carry up in hand-cocking the hammer while braking the cylinder. Nothing of the sort is evident even in hard worn MR73 or Korth revolvers. And unlike the MR73, the Korth is refined to a fare-thee-well, with mirror finish on the major components and barely discernible joints between them. It is, however, a quintessentially sporting handgun, with the tightest possible clearances between its moving parts and a finely tunable two-stage double action trigger pull that is not meant for fast combat style shooting in the Bill Jordan fashion. If you want a range toy, the Korth is your finest choice. If you want a top notch tool for social work, get an MR73 or a P210.

I cannot answer the question of subjective value. In Germany, used Korth revolvers of the latest design cost between 1,200 and 3,500 Euros, depending on the condition, configuration, and luck of the draw. By contrast, you would have to spend between 700 and 1,800 Euros for a used Manurhin MR73, and between 400 and 1,000 Euros for a used Colt Python. To put this in perspective, my nicest blue steel Korth cost me around $2,200 to acquire and import in a large combined lot. I wouldn�t part with it for three times that price.

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Michaelmassmeans.com | Zelenypost.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

Wow, thank you very much for joining and adding to the discussion. I learned more about revolvers in that one post that the past year of my life. I hope you stick around and continue to bestow your knowledge on us. I really enjoyed that.

And i want a korth now more than ever.

Here's more from Zeleny I dug up on the 1911 forum. More great info here.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?p=3433786

The trouble with ad hominem attacks, intentional or not, is when the attacker is incorrect it devalues the balance of his opinions.

'Most Europeans are stupid, I think Benelli shotguns are great' isn't much of a sales pitch.

For most Americans "impressed by popularity" ends in junior high.

Back when I was doing time in the corporate world, I interviewed a job applicant who described himself as a statistician employed by McDonald's Corporation to update their advertising with the billions of their hamburgers sold worldwide. I have no reason to think that his pitch failed to impress potential customers of high school age and beyond.

Fortunately, the pitching I do these days, for fun or for profit, has no relation to sales of any kind.

--
Michaelmassmeans.com | Zelenypost.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett

McDonalds sells hamburgers because they're faster, cheaper, or more convenient than the alternatives and McDonalds knows that. I'm sure lots of firearms are sold on those premises as well.

At best Americans buy based on what they know, and at worst based on what they think they know. I've been guilty of both.

As an American by choice, the last proposition I would defend, and least of all in an election year, is that we are anything but a nation of savvy consumers. One remarkable aspect of Korth revolvers is going beyond the cost/benefit analysis characteristic of market-oriented products. They are made with pride characteristic of pre-WWI DWM and Mauser, or pre-WWII Colt and S&W. Of American handguns of post-WWII production, only Philip Lichtman's LM4 Semmerling exhibits this quality. Yes, I am taking into full account Freedom Arms with their Ruger-cast frames.

--
Michaelmassmeans.com | Zelenypost.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.com
http://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett