Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Best Fighting Sixgun?

I ran the corbon 158 SWHP at it clocked right at 1000fps from my SW442. It was the most viscious pistol combo I have every shot. A 50 round qualification course would leave my fingers bruised and beaten up. I will carry the snubbies for a backup gun but for a primary carry it is just not happening with all of the compact autos.

On the other hand I dont mind 125s at 1400fps from a full size gun like the Ruger Security six. Yes its loud and bright but at least there is a full grip to hold onto.

One of these days, I'll look for an old mailbox and see if a hard cast 158 grain Keith SWC at 950 fps can penetrate it.

Pics, of course.

Perhaps I'm mis-reading this, but are you suggesting that Smith & Wesson Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman revolvers (both chambered for the .38-44 High Velocity round) are prone to failure if "hot rounds" are fired? I ask because in 1929/30 the standard .38-44 chrono'ed at 1,150 fps from a 6-inch barrel with factory ammo, whereas a .38 special trundled down range at 850 fps, in both instances firing a 158-grain bullet. Given that the .44 Special N-Frame revolver was the basis for both the .38-44 HV and the .357 Magnum, I fail to see how a .38-44 revolver (either Colt or S&W) would be subject to failure from "hot loads". But, as I said up front, perhaps I've misread what you've posted.

This post sounds a lot like those in the Hunting Rifle forum that insist that only 30cal and larger are suitable for elk hunting, for pretty much the same reason. They, like your cop friend, have trouble putting rounds into vital areas, so they shoot elk in the ass, and shoot mailboxes, when they should be putting rounds into the mofos tissues that were exposed above and around the mailbox.

Having said that a 38 Special ain't my first pick, a 9mm +p is, and I don't shoot at mailboxes with it, 'cause mailboxes don't shoot back.

Tell us how many gunfights that you have been involved in with a handgun. Also I would be interested to know your hit ratio and where did you hit the bad guy

Take-a-knee..your analogy of elk hunting and gun fighting isn't really appropriate. It is more like hunting grizzly bear...on the ground...in the adlers in Alaska.

You could hunt a grizzly bear from a tree stand with a 7mm, pick your shot and say anyone who needs a .338 Winchester just isn't a good hunter because they can't hit all that mofus tissue that was exposed through the tree branches. Put that same hunter on the ground where the shot is going to be measured in feet at a moving target that is going to kill you if you screw things up, or just don't have "enough gun", and ask him if he is going to take the 7mm back into the thicket again..if he is still alive to give an opinion that is.

And so who do you take the advise of when picking a firearm for up close and personal grizzly bear hunting...the guide who has been successfully guiding clients for 15 years and has seen everything from a .308 to a .470 Nitro Express used and can tell you the load, reaction to the shot and sometimes what the recovered bullet looked like or the gun writer who have never even been in Alaska....

As to my friend's son's shooting ability try this test. Take a 2'x4' piece of cardboard and set it up 1' off the ground. Then take 2 paperplates and staple them to the top two corners of the cardboard so that 1/4 of the plate is behind the cardboard. The distance was about 35 yards maybe a little further, across 4 traffic lanes and two parking lanes.

Now run from the target to take cover and get your 6 shots off all within 30 seconds knowing that for each paperplate you miss you have to fast for 12 hours...and that isn't near the pressure of a gunfight.

The fact he even hit the mailbox at all is amazing...most people, including LEOs, I know would have been lucky to hit the mailbox once... Anyone who talks about picking shots in a gunfight is like the above gunwriter who has never been in Alaska...ain't been there and done that and ain't gotta clue....

Bob

This.

+1000

I thought I was getting old in the career, so I've gotta ask, when exactly were you a law enforcement officer and how old are you that you were issued the old 158LRN police load for duty ammo? We dumped that round as a failure about 2/3ds way through the last century. I think LAPD and a few of the more liberal areas resisted change until the late 70s or so, but IIRC, the switch was made for most from the old "widowmaker" to the W-W LE load 35 to 40 years ago. The W-W LE load never had a bad track record. I keep an original box full on display with my old service revolver and my records show that W-W spec'd that LE round at 1090fps from a 4" service barrel. It would routinely clock over 1000fps out of most duty revolvers and was night and day different in effectiveness on the street from the early 20th century 755fps LRN load. Much has changed in bullet construction since then, but nothing much has changed in the combo that's consistently at the top of the heap as being effective at stopping while showing good penetration through intermediate barriers, that being the long used .357mag LE load, and now the .357sig LE load. But the old W-W LE load was anything but the "widowmaker".

The invents that I lived through that were absolute abysmal failures resulted from the older RI index and the later 1988 Quantico wound ballistics workshop. The RI index gave us bullets that expanded too easily, and the '88 workshop spawned the law enforcement use of the 9mm 147 sub-sonic and the Smith and Wesson 10mm pistol. None of those worked well on the street.

Things have come a long ways since I pulled my first well used duty revolver out of a pile tossed in a cardboard box. That old S&W came out the box with one broken grip panel and timing so off that it would split and spray lead out the sides of the cylinder gap. Our armorer back then was called "Jingles" and he was no better at working on handguns than those monkeys with baseball bats working on a transmission. Our old indoor range was a converted bowling alley and though we had a very large outdoor range, it was nothing more than a couple dirt hills with backstops and an old school house. Now I have highly tuned Sig Sauer pistols. One of our armorers is one of the top Guild pistolsmiths and machinists in the country. We have state of the art computer driven ranges with numerous schools, buildings, warehouses, residential dwellings and such for realistic simunition and explosives training. We have military armored trucks, high end mobile command centers, planes and helicopters with the latest technology. Much has changed since the "widowmaker" was the standard issue LE round.

I'll start calling you Gramps

Best

You have something against the USPS don't you....Admit it....

The one you are both accurate and fast with, especially if it begins with a ".4".

Gary,

You can call me whatever you want. The .38 Special RNL bullet was gone from Dallas PD when I got there in 1977 but was still in use in a lot of other cities and states. When I started the issue was a Model 64 with 158 grain LWSC-HP +P loads. CHRONOGRAPHED velocities from a 4" service revolver ran from 900-975 fps. Fortunately we were allowed to purchase our own guns and ammo...any Browning, S&W or Colt semi-auto or revolver from .38 Special to .45 Colt. Investigators could also carry .380 ACP.

The .38 Special was still even with the +P loads was looked upon as marginal by most officers. As I have stated before, all the officers I knew who were in a shooting with a .38 save one changed to a more powerful gun after the shooting. NONE of the officers who I knew who got into a shooting with a 9mm or larger ever changed their guns....

So the question I have for you is, if I am reading you correctly, the 9mm 147 Subsonic was not all that great on the street, and it was not, can you please explain the difference between a .355" bullet weighing 147 grains going 950-1000 fps and a .357" bullet weighing 158 grains and going 900-975 fps? There is none...they both SUCK.

You can have all the fancy HP designs you want, when it comes to .35 caliber guns it is SPEED that going to reliably make that bullet work.

Another question...your first gun with the broken grips and bad timing...just wondering how many gunfights the officers on your department got into a year? My guess is little to none...and that guess comes from the fact that when your chances of getting into a gunfight go up you aren't that sloppy about your equipment.

Not real sure what the average number of gunfights a year Dallas officers had but in 1983 there were 85+-...almost all involved the Patrol Division. There were 2500+- officers and 800+- Patrol officers...that would make your chance of getting into a gunfight as a uniformed patrol officer close to 10%...and that is when SHOTS are fired. That doesn't count the number of times you drew down on someone and they gave up rather than be killed.

Contrast that to NH where I moved... There are 2000+- officers in the state. In the 25 years I've lived here I don't think there has been 80 officer involved shooting since I moved here. The survival mindset is totally different here then where I came from...

...you can have all high tech training aids, military vehicles and all the rest of "modern" you want...nothing replaces actual experience and the mindset of the man on the ground...

.38 is still a .38...nothing has changed.

Bob

Early 9mm 147�s had some real problems with non-expansion which lead to over-penetration. I believe Orange County SO had more than one officer shot THROUGH a perp by his partner with this load. Newer 9mm 147�s have it all worked out, and the 147 is not a great exapander and deep penetrator, and probably the ideal law enforcement 9mm load; that or the 124 +P.

Never saw a pre-lock S&W 357MAG that I did not want.

However I was just wondering why you like M65 ?

Lot's of police agencies are using the newest versions of the 147 gr. 9mm with excellent results.

I really like the XTP in 147, very good bullet.

The 147 gr. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T, Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Sabre are all working well in actual shootings. The first three in particular are seeing issue by quite a few large agencies and they are happy with the results. The 124 gr. +P is an excellent load also, however; the recoil impulse is slightly more with the +P 124 gr. load than with the softer push of the 147 gr. loads. Not a big deal but if both are passing FBI testing, both are equally reliable in the firing platform and both are performing well on the street why not choose the softer shooting load?

The 3" k frame is JUST RIGHT... perfect size for ccw yet big enough to be a real gun. They represent the pinical of revolvers before the takeover of the semiautomatic.

I'd choose my old 19-3. It taught me how to shoot a center-fire handgun. I'm still very comfortable with it.

This has taken off...lots of votes for an S&W K frame in a three to four inch barrel. Most responses seem to run to a .357 or larger caliber.

This was meant to be fun, but I also really wanted to know everyone's opinions and experiences. Thanks again to all that have posted!