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Joined: May 2014
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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An outdoors laboratory with a multitude of variables is not the best place to come to an absolute conclusion. The only exception is if you convinced a .gov to give you grant money to study the impossible. I'm pretty sure people can observe reality without a laboratory. But there will always be a handful of people that insist there is no difference in 200fps, and there will always be a handful of people that insist plastic tip bullets "don't do anything different" and there will always be a handful of people that need a pack of PhD's and a laboratory to see the advantages of a faster twist. Travis Travis, as a horseshoer I've fixed close to 70 foundered horses with 100% success over the last 6 years. Don't know if you know anything about founder but basically that's suppose to be impossible! A world renowned founder clinic from Texas is apparently fixing 7 out of 10. So I figure what the heck I'll give them boys a call and see if they'd be willing to have me swing by. So I call and to cut to the chase I offer to show up and I'll fix the 3 out of 10 they can't fix for free to get my foot in the door and prove what I'm explaining. After all proof is in the pudding, Right! So they ask me about my education as I seem to be talking somewhat backyard and farmish! I believe the mans exact words were "you are not eucated enough for us to waist our time" The truth is I figured out exactly what they were missing by reading there literature and fixed the first foundered horse I ever worked on and strangely enough I assured the horse owner that I was very confident I would fix the horse. This wasn't your average foundered horse! The horse had dropped sole and coffin bone rotation to a massive degree and was diagnosed from a top ten veterinary clinic as unfixable. I remember thinking, if Ive been fixing 10 for 10 and they fix 7 for 10.....well......who really has the proper education here? In the end my final determination was that it really was not even about education. It was about Common sense and the ability to see beyond immperical data and laboratories and in the box education. Kind of like the gun world. Shod
The 6.5 Swede, Before Gay Was Ok
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,666 Likes: 41 |
For those of you that can't follow that metaphor, he is saying fast twist doesn't work, and anyone that believes it does, is a horses' ass...
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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Can you see out that eye yet?
My dad taught me to read brail at a very early age. His foresight is uncanny. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Travis, as a horseshoer I've fixed close to 70 foundered horses with 100% success over the last 6 years.
Don't know if you know anything about founder but basically that's suppose to be impossible!
A world renowned founder clinic from Texas is apparently fixing 7 out of 10.
So I figure what the heck I'll give them boys a call and see if they'd be willing to have me swing by.
So I call and to cut to the chase I offer to show up and I'll fix the 3 out of 10 they can't fix for free to get my foot in the door and prove what I'm explaining.
After all proof is in the pudding, Right!
So they ask me about my education as I seem to be talking somewhat backyard and farmish!
I believe the mans exact words were "you are not eucated enough for us to waist our time"
The truth is I figured out exactly what they were missing by reading there literature and fixed the first foundered horse I ever worked on and strangely enough I assured the horse owner that I was very confident I would fix the horse.
This wasn't your average foundered horse! The horse had dropped sole and coffin bone rotation to a massive degree and was diagnosed from a top ten veterinary clinic as unfixable.
I remember thinking, if Ive been fixing 10 for 10 and they fix 7 for 10.....well......who really has the proper education here?
In the end my final determination was that it really was not even about education.
It was about Common sense and the ability to see beyond immperical data and laboratories and in the box education.
Kind of like the gun world.
Shod
Shod, If you're saying you'd like to see horses get shot, I am in 100% agreement. They ain't got schit on an internal combustion engine. Also I think you are referred to as a farrier. Not a horseshoer. Get your schit straight. If you're agreeing with me, I certainly agree with you and you are welcome to stop by my place any time. Merry Christmas friendo. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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That is not a good way to start out trying to make a point. "pretty sure" - Guessing won't cut it.
Cuts it just fine from where I sit. I have all the tools needed to acquire the empirical data. All you've got is jack+schit. Travis Oh, so you have seen my "jack+schit" ?
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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It seems to me that if you shoot an animal in the right spot, with a reasonably suitable bullet, it dies pretty much straight away. I don't know what difference twist rate might make to that, past the point of the bullet being stabilised, because it has never occurred to me to wonder whether animals could get any deader.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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Oh, so you have seen my "jack+schit" ?
Every time you type! Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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It seems to me that if you shoot an animal in the right spot, with a reasonably suitable bullet, it dies pretty much straight away. I don't know what difference twist rate might make to that, past the point of the bullet being stabilised, because it has never occurred to me to wonder whether animals could get any deader. UBER. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,306 Likes: 2 |
For those of you that can't follow that metaphor, he is saying fast twist doesn't work, and anyone that believes it does, is a horses' ass...
Thanks for the synopsis. i didn't want to read the whole thing...but as I scanned it, the word "immperical" jumped out at me.... I can't help myself.
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Oh, so you have seen my "jack+schit" ?
Every time you type! Travis That would be, let's see what did you call it, empirical data.
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2006
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First deer I shot was with a 1-14" 22-250 and a 55 Win soft point.
Mule deer buck with does at 150 yards. Shot him once behind the shoulder and the herd runs behind a hill. Buck appeared uninjured, I thought I missed, what the frick?!
Does all appear from the other side of the hill but no buck...
Hmmm..
Walk around the hill and sure enough the buck was laying on the other side.
He might have ran 100 yards, maybe 75.
Slow twist, slow death story.....grin
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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What is this ancient 22-250 you speak of?
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Yes there is a difference. May be noticeable and may not be depending on target, bullet and just how different the twist is.
In both ballistic testing and extensive use in animals, differences in twist can be seen. Now with some bullets out off 223's you can see the difference in small animals like Prairie dogs, coyotes, etc., but normally not on bigger animals such as deer. Monos do seem to be more consistent, or I should say show less inconsistencies with faster twists. Granted the differance between a 1/12in and 1/14in is slight, but between a 1/12in and 1/7in does show a difference with some bullets.
With most bullets it's hard to see a differance on bigger game like deer, but you can recreate the same as with 22's and varmints by using big varmint bullets. As an example- the 30cal Hornady 178gr Amax is really a big varmint bullet. It can produce very graphic wounds on deer when started around 3,000 FPS and normal 1/10 twists. With the same impacts velocity using 1/8in twist barrels wounds are noticeably bigger. Have done crop damage with two identical rifles using that bullet with the only difference being twist rate- 1/8 and 1-10. There is no mistaking which did what when looking at the deer. We're not talking a couple of animals either. Well into three figures with both. Anyone that looked at the animals could tell the differance between them, and the butcher even could figure out which was which.
There are no downsides to faster twists. However slight the differances may be, they are real, have been proven in ballistic testing and sometimes can be seen in tissue.
I'll take fast twists please. Using the 178 gr example, do you lose any velocity by going from 1-10 to a 1-8 twist ?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Contrary to popular belief twist does not affect velocity. A friend that works with a ballistics lab told me they have tested this and pressure is not affected meaningfully. They tested a 7 twist VS a 14 twist.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
If fast twists cause lower velocity I have never seen any evidence of it.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What is this ancient 22-250 you speak of?
Travis A 9lb push feed M70, it's out at my parent's house. Got it brand new(1990?) from the Coast To Coast hardware store. You guys should try the smaller bores on deer sometimes.... Very effective under the right circumstances!
Last edited by SamOlson; 12/11/14.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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What is this ancient 22-250 you speak of?
Travis A 9lb push feed M70, it's out at my parent's house. Got it brand new(1990?) from the Coast To Coast hardware store. You guys should try the smaller bores on deer sometimes.... Very effective under the right circumstances! Would you agree that a small bore in the hands of a Rez hunter would not be under the right circumstances?
You're Welcome At My Fire Anytime
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Depending on the season I think I would agree!
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Using the 178 gr example, do you lose any velocity by going from 1-10 to a 1-8 twist ?
If you do just add more powder. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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If we assume that rotational velocity (spin) decreases at the same rate as flight velocity the bullet won't be spinning much when it contacts game , depending on range of course. And I'll bet it slows to nothing when it expands...a bullet is not a good flywheel. It's mass is not far from the center.
See if you can find any ballistic gel tests showing spiral lines in the cavity.
"after the bullet leaves the barrel it doesn't care what headstamp was on the case" "The 221 Fireball is what the Hornet could have been had it stayed in school"
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