I've been playing around with faster twists the last couple of years. It may be a freak occurrence, but well, things seem to die faster...

I don't have empirical data. I've just noticed more trauma and quicker deaths. Could be a coincidence or maybe there is something to it....

Whatcha think?

I think P.O. Ackley would agree with you.

self fulfilling prophecy?

You know I agree, most especially when slinging bullets that will stay together.

It is all supposition on my part, but I agree with Scott. I think faster spinning is where mono metals come into their own...

I didn't want to mention all copper bullets, so as to not hurt feelers, but you knew what I meant.

SAS: I think without doubt trauma would increase with fast twist cnc bullets, but again, it would help enormously ( on game anyway) if they held together. I have played with the concept and varmint bullets...on varmints. The difference between a 12 twist and an 8 twist is the difference between merely graphic....and Uber

Thats why I referred to them an 'mono metal'

Seems to me that a bullet would only make maybe 2 revolutions through a broadside shot deer. I don't know how that would affect anything?

The mono metals are actually where I noticed a difference on deer size game.

The 40 grain Varmageddon's out of an 8" twist 223 raised my eyebrows. The difference with those bullets in an 8" twist compared to a 12" twist is eye opening. Little things not only explode more violently, they appear to get more "lift" too.

Damn. You have a point there...

OK

Rotational forces could get the Barnes wings deployed more positively, earlier during the penetration. (Thinking out loud.)

What about RPM's, resistance and loss of velocity?

I have read many bullets tumble on impact. I wonder if faster rotation increases the effect and causes more internal damage?

Are the "things" that die you are referring to small deer or rabbits or what?

RPM's provide the rotational forces. The petals deploy wider faster. The bullet sheds velocity, and hence momentum, faster. Shedding momentum faster means the force slowing the projectile down is larger. Larger force of impact leads to deadness occurring sooner.

I don't see any difference. 40 grain Ballistic Tips kill deer the same out of my 14 twist as they do out of my 8. They also kill deer about the same as a 338. And pretty much everything in between. A bullet through the heart/lungs results in a short death run with a piled up deer at the end.

A good friend was in on 20 some elk kills this year (many of them big bulls), with everything from his 243 shooting 85 TSXs to various Ultra Uber Awesome Mags. He noted the 243 worked about the same as the fire breathers.

This killing stuff isn't hard, put a decent bullet in the right place and stuff dies promptly. Put a bullet somewhere else and it doesn't.

Fast twist + plastic stock + stainless barrel + mono bullet = uber deadly rig.

The old 1/14 twist with the 55gr FMJ of the original m16 is one reason they called it the meat axe. Increasing the twist to 1/12 with the a1 was *said* to reduce wounding capability as the bullet was more stable and less prone to yaw and fragment. I don't know if it is actually true (I kind of doubt it) but I just thought I would throw it out there since someone mentioned 'tumbling'.

From prairie dogs to deer. Obviously, prairie dogs were the subject of explosion and lift.

Billy,

That statement kinda hits the nail on the head. That's what I've always experienced with cup and cores. They bust the heart and lungs, then pile up after a short death run.

I've seen different results with mono's. I've seen some long death runs after the heart and lungs were punched....longer than I expected from a good shot and longer than those shot with cup and cores.

But I've also seen hearts and lungs punched with fast twist barrels shooting monos pile up a little quicker than shots from slower twisted barrels of the same/same. (Same bullet, same cartridge, same load, etc.)

Maybe coincidence, that's why I asked...just curious as to others results.

My opinion is it's between the operators ears.

Truth is, most shooting mono's drop down a step or two in bullet weight, increasing velocity. I think it's a fairly well established reality that velocity does wonderful and noticeable things to game animals at the end of a rifle barrel.

To drop critters even quicker, couple frangible with velocity.

I've got little experience with it, but the 155 pound whitail I punched with a 127LRX from my 6.5CM only made about 30 yds and he was damn near full run when I shot him. A sample of one, but I'm begining to think there's something to it. I might even have a 8" twist 7mm-08 AI Hart Barrel in the works for my 84m so I can conduct testing w/ 145grn .284 LRX's.....

David

shortactionsmoker;
Good evening to you sir, hopefully this finds you and yours doing acceptably well.

A short while ago I started a similar thread - I was going to say parallel, but perhaps that's overstating it some.

Anyway here's a link to that one should you be interested in reading the responses.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth.../Tissue_Damage_270_vs_6_5x55#Post9248055

The highlights for me were that when I finally measured the twist on the .270 barrel I was using it was slower than normal. That coupled with sluggish velocities for a .270 and my using TSX/TTSX/GMX bullets made for less than stellar performance - for a .270 anyway.

Anyway I believe enough in faster twist enough that I went to the garage, unscrewed the barrel and that action is at the gunsmith up the valley as I type this - having a fast twist 6.5x55 barrel installed.

Hopefully that was of some use to you or someone out there tonight. All the best to you and yours in this Christmas season.

Dwayne

Talk about fast twist. This sharps puts them out with a 1/36 twist. Not for the faint hearted...

I've whacked several running Montana whitetail does (approximately the same size as your buck) over the last few years with a 14 twist 223 AI firing 40 grain Ballistic Tips. They went about the same distance.

So it goes around twice in that barrel huh?

And I've shot a bunch with 140NBT's, 140AB's, 150SST's, etc that did the same. My previous experience with Barnes was that they penetrate fantastic, but often don't bring a quick stop if bones aren't hit. This was the first deer I've punched lungs with a Barnes that basically piled up mid stride. Again, it's a sample of one, but I liked what I saw.


David

I have noticed this^^^^^.

But I have never noticed any difference on deer sized game...

I seem to recall Litz discussing this awhile back. The difference in torque from one twist to another doesn't amount to much.

To be honest with you, I haven't been very impressed with monos on deer unless the velocity was pretty high (like 3500 fps or more). Maybe extra twist would help, but I've seen game shot with monos out of fast twist 22s and 6s which didn't exhibit any difference in dying compared to slower twisted versions of same.

I haven't seen it in regards to monos but I don't doubt it exists.

Monos have killed slower in my experience. God only knows how far critters would run if I wasn't pushing them at 3400+

Probably a mile or two....

Faster death...
How do you know?
The last few years I have been shooting deer at very close ranges.
I always thought they were instantly dead. Well by the time I used to grab my gear and walk a hundred or two hundred yards it would be. Get to one neck shot at 30 yards and you find its a different show.
I've had about half a dozen in the last couple years still breathing, blinking and with a beating heart for 2-3 minutes after being dropped from CNS hits.
So...I think your forming an idea based on inconclusive data, preference seeking outcomes and a lack of information.
Things die and things stop.
The two ain't always the same.
I'm less concerned with TOD and more concerned with instant incapacitation.
For that trick only one thing is sure to do the trick. Breaking or disruption of the signals from the brain to the spinal column below C-4. The further away the bullet physically is from the vetebras the more nessasary fluid shock is. A small caliber FMJ strike ON a veterbra will work, that's same projectile through the lower neck will simply pass through. An AMAX, BT or cup\core varmint style bullet any place near the spine seems to be enough to displace massive amounts of tissue, sufficient to break the systems ability to transfer the RUN signal.
Furthermore, I've found, a deer moving likely will continue moving and one standing calmly still will likely drop to the shot.

I agree totally -

I noticed many years ago when I shot a lot more coyotes with a 1:7" and a 55 grain Vmax they would just die immediately. Like electrocution.

Same bullet, same ranges, 1:12", results from coyotes are just different.

I have seen it and totally agree with it.

My gunsmith has been building 8 twist .30cal rifles for years for long range hunting with excellent results. Superb accuracy and quick kills with 200gr SMKs in .300 Win Mag and faster cartridges. I may order a fast twist barrel for my Savage 116 when cash flow improves, just to try it out. And in last year's issue of issue of Sniper Magazine was an article by Todd Hodnett: "The Future of Twist Rates". He's been working with a 1:7.8 twist .308, and a buddy of his is using a 1:4 twist .308 with fine results. Don't know if any of you have seen this yet, but it's an interesting read. I did a quick search for the article, but couldn't find it on line. Perhaps someone with stronger google fu can find it.

Was that doe even dead when you took that pic?

So what you're saying is you don't shoot fast twist rifles, but you can guess. Got it!

I have absolutely noticed a difference when shooting rat sized vermin.




Travis

Years ago, it occurred to me that the fast twist was the reason the old 7by57 had such a reputation for quick kills. A thin-jacketed 139gr. c&c at 2800 probably threw off a lot of jacket on its way through.

Don't have many Remingtons, do you Shrap?

No, that twist is so slow, the bullet was still in the air when I got to the deer...

Me too, the slower bullets from the fast twist barrels just don't have the "impact"...

If you've ever played with Hornady SX bullets at various speeds and twists, you can understand that there are plenty of forces at work that don't necessarily require a target to deploy. Naturally, the first obstacle a 'hot' bullet encounters is going to subject that bullet to release more quickly.

As a matter of fact, I have one in a 22 single shot...

Don't go too far west, you'll fall off the edge.

I have named my truck "Santa Maria" for such excursions...

Hmmmm- wonder how on earth those old timers with smoothbore muskets and round balls ever killed anything, what with no twist and all.....

I think you are missing the point.

I have absolutely noticed what he is saying when small critters are the subject. As have many. It is not imagined.

On something the size of a deer, I don't believe the effect is nearly as dramatic, or readily apparent to the eye.

JMO....

Or how they went to work without a vehicle? Communicated without a phone/computer? Survived an appendix attack?

No one EVEr said the other shiet don't kill, but there is a reason man lived in a cave for many a 1000 years. Because he hadn't figured out how to build a phugging house yet.

I'll never understand how people's minds make this leap.




Travis

Time to fight the Taliban with smoothbore muskets I guess.

No sheit. If A then Z.

Time for TAK to start asking how many people you've killed. Amazing the amount of stupid [bleep] on the 'Fire.

Last time I shot gophers with you, you said "I have never seen a gopher just vaporize like that before."

I have a theory on that observation...



Travis

This is Nina.

She's pulled off the road out of courtesy for Downstream:

At one time there were enough experienced guys here to keep all the idiots in check. Not so sure any more......

Somewhere, on some quiz, a kid has named the ships Nina, Puta, and Santa Maria.

It's the same reason a semi with wheels revolving 600 RPMs is less lethal than a Subaru with wheels rotating 1500 RPMs is����..


�����uh, wait���.

hmmm? Maybe that's apples to oran���.gatans?

How many have you killed? You stupid SOB.

We have a winner. Keep your distance from the 'tards or they'll rub off on you.

So after 6 pages, some of it getting a little testy, the general consensus seems to be - MAYBE.

drover

Me too, as it was velocity not twist that kilt that gopher. Besides, RPM is easily calculated and how many more times a bullet spins in a foot of distance won't make any difference to the critter it shot...

That's not entirely true, as the way I understand it with lightly jacketed varmint bullets, the added twist is essentially stressing them a bit more, causing quicker upset when they strike flesh.

I've seen the fast twist help provide more "lift" when striking small game while shooting slow and fast twist rifles of the same cartridge side by side, in such rounds as the 223, 223 AI, 220 Swift, and 243.

I'm just not convinced it really shows up on big game. "Lost in the noise" as it were.

The bullet was going 3300fps which is not fast by the standards we usually use on gophers.

You just happened to catch what I've caught over and over. The faster twist makes schit explode.


Travis

No dog in this "discussion" but I didn't see Brad say he had, or had not, shot fast twist rifles.

That was a gopher, this is a prairie dog with velocity and a low BC bullet. Fast twist is still a fad...

RPM is easily calculated at the muzzle.

Can you calculate RPM after the bullet has traveled 100 yds. or more?

If a bullet leaves muzzle @ 3000fps, 180,000 RPM, what is RPM when it has slowed to 2000 fps?

You won't see twists get slower and you won't see bullets get shorter.

The faster twists are here to stay.



Travis

Yep.

No downside to the fast twist. Lots of upside.

Advise if the faster deaths were due to death by bleeding or hitting the nervous system?

A recent observation was that faster bleeding deaths happen when the bullet fragments such as a lead core breaking up and hitting many places.

You don't still think it's 120,000 rpm, do you?

Did you really have to go there?

Maybe we should ask Brian Litz while he's around.....

He'd be one to ask.

This thread has me anxious to try out my still pretty new to me 9 twist 220 Swift this spring! It may (probably will) become a 220 Weatherby Rocket by then for even MORE fun with rodent launching.

I sure wish it was legal to use this rifle on deer in this state. A 55gr Barnes TTSX at about 4,000fps from a 1 in 9 twist barrel would seem to be a pretty deadly combination, but the pencil driving buerocrats in Olympia obviously know better, right?

I wonder how fast I will be able to drive my favorite little 36gr Varmint Grenades with 45 or so grains of powder behind 'em?

This rifle with my stash of 75gr A-Max's ought to be pretty effective on Coyote's as well.

So what fast twisters are saying is:

This is deader...



Than this...

Obviously slow twists were used as there is way too much varmint left after the hit.



Travis

No. That is not what anyone here has said.

But merely what you have chose to hear......

Exactamundo.

Hell, its so simple even JeffO could see it....

Yes. There is a difference.

When you can see an 8 twist 223 AI get the same lift with 40s as a slow twist 22-250 shooting 50s, why bother with the bigger gun? Isn't the added lift a big reason for shooting varmints with a centerfire anyway?

BTW, an 8 twist 22-6mm gets tremendous lift.

I would hate to be the guardian when all you guys are on the same playground...

Now I wanna try a 1-3" twist .223AI and see how it would do on squirrels with a 40 vmax.

I'm used to you punching me. So it wouldn't matter.



Travis

I'll see your 1-3" 223 AI and raise you a 250 Savage AI tapped to 1/4"x20 NC. Do you reckon fouling will be an issue?

Make sure you order a 3 groove PacNor as it solves any potential issues that might arise.

Yes there is a difference. May be noticeable and may not be depending on target, bullet and just how different the twist is.


In both ballistic testing and extensive use in animals, differences in twist can be seen. Now with some bullets out off 223's you can see the difference in small animals like Prairie dogs, coyotes, etc., but normally not on bigger animals such as deer. Monos do seem to be more consistent, or I should say show less inconsistencies with faster twists. Granted the differance between a 1/12in and 1/14in is slight, but between a 1/12in and 1/7in does show a difference with some bullets.


With most bullets it's hard to see a differance on bigger game like deer, but you can recreate the same as with 22's and varmints by using big varmint bullets. As an example- the 30cal Hornady 178gr Amax is really a big varmint bullet. It can produce very graphic wounds on deer when started around 3,000 FPS and normal 1/10 twists. With the same impacts velocity using 1/8in twist barrels wounds are noticeably bigger. Have done crop damage with two identical rifles using that bullet with the only difference being twist rate- 1/8 and 1-10. There is no mistaking which did what when looking at the deer. We're not talking a couple of animals either. Well into three figures with both. Anyone that looked at the animals could tell the differance between them, and the butcher even could figure out which was which.



There are no downsides to faster twists. However slight the differances may be, they are real, have been proven in ballistic testing and sometimes can be seen in tissue.


I'll take fast twists please.

Hammer forged or button rifled?

Bingo.

This is not a "new" conversation and guys like Billy Steigers at Bitterroot did the testing and proved this stuff 30+years ago. (A lot of posters were not around for that) If you bought the bullets,and used fast twists, you saw the results.

Velocity matters; twist matters. In conjunction they both contribute to bullet expansion and will help expand tough hunting bullets. If you want to see the chest cavity of a bull elk reduced to pudding,start 165 Bitterroot from a 300 mag at 3300 fps in a 9 twist barrel ( if you have any).

I don't shoot Barnes only because I don't need them (I have BBC's). But I have a funny feeling a lot of the erratic results people have seen has been a result of too little velocity and too little twist resulting in the bullets not staying point on in the animal,and not enough force to cause expansion of tough jackets.I spoke with Steigers about this very thing years ago when the Barnes first came out...he said people will drive them too slow,won't use enough twist, and have expansion problems. Turns out, he was right.

Fast twist will help keep the bullet point-on as it travels through an animal and encounters different levels of resistance(hide,bone,flesh,fat,muscle etc) and will help facilitate more rapid expansion with tough bullets,provided the bullet is made of the right materials.

It will also tear up thinner jacket designs (like what Formid explains above),and what the varmint hunters are seeing.


If I used monos I'd drive them fast and use a faster twist for consistent results.If all we ever used was standard C&C bullets from standard twist,we might never see much difference....but if you use a tough premium and shoot them into enough animals, the differences in twist will show up.

It's no accident that guys are getting a lot of wounding effect from long, heavy target bullets of high BC,and at distance as well.....these bullets are all being started from very fast twist barrels.

The RPM formula will show some dramatic differences when a fast twist barrel is employed.

Here are a few examples of rifles my friend and I have:

1 in 7 30" STW 160 at 3375 = 347,142
1 in 7 twist 30" rem mag 140 accubond @ 3410 = 350,742 rpm
1 in 7 twist 30" rem mag 180 vld @ 2950 = 303,328
1 in 9 26" 7 RUM 180 berger vld @ 3100 = 260,000

The Berger 115 VLD has been known to come apart with the necessary twist of 1 in 7.5
6mm-284 1 in 7.5 105 berger hybrid 3445 fps= 330,732 RPM
6mm-284 1 in 7.4 115 VLD 3250fps =312,000 RPM

This...

Soup...that looks nice!

This is where these conversations always go. The slow twist crowd stating they can have the same results with their rifles.

But that is not apples to apples.

What is being asked by the OP is if other people have seen a difference between a standard twist and "fast" twist, all things being equal.

People that have similar rifles (with the exception of twist rate) shooting similar loads will see a difference in terminal performance. The smaller the test media the more evident it becomes.

That does not mean a 1-14" Swift shooting 40gr bullets @ 4300fps won't flip a prairie dog. It simply means if you shoot a 1-12" twisted .223 against a 1-8" .223 (as long as everything else is equal) the shooter will more than likely notice the faster twist flings and flies schit more better.

Not exactly a reason to choose a faster twist in and of itself, it's just an observation made by those that have rifles in both twist rates.



Clark

This is purely a case of " the perception is the reality"...

We can take a poll at the next PD Invitational. First morning with a 1-12" .223, and the second morning with a 1-8".

The decision will be unanimous. Minus the host of course...



Travis

I have 223AIs .....one in 12 twist, one in 8 twist. They both like 50 vmax...same load. I will check them on gophs this spring side by side and see which one kills stuff more deader.

Who is "we"?

There is no Travis in "we"...

Like feeding a stray dog, you can't get rid of me that easily.




Travis

O.K. But I want my sweater back...

deflave: "Faster death" is an elusive standard, and hard to prove...

Death of game animals is sometimes an elusive thing and hard to replicate precisely one shot to the next...we don't get to "kill" the same animal several times to prove a point since no two shots are ever precisely the same.What we can hope for is to see a general trend....unless of course you are a cull hunter in Oz or Africa but few of us get to do that sort of thing.

JWP called me this morning to remind me of this,and said maybe a better way of looking at this is as creating more cavitation,more extensive wounding....which
sometimes leads to faster death...at least as far as BG is concerned.

It may be helpful to look at the whole twist and terminal performance thing as a "contributing factor" rather than "sole cause"....but lots of people have noticed it over the years,as far back as John Jobson, who observed it and wrote about it 3-4 decades ago.

This my way of saying I agree with you BTW.

Speaking of Oz, don't listen to the man behind the curtain...

An outdoors laboratory with a multitude of variables is not the best place to come to an absolute conclusion. The only exception is if you convinced a .gov to give you grant money to study the impossible.

My new best friend...

Schrapnel, I never have...

John Jobson- He is an old one but a good one!

From another post on the Campfire...

I believe this is the acctual quote



Doesn't mention twist.

So, what's your point?

I'm sure you wouldn't want inaccurate info to become perception.

I can't help if the original post wasn't complete...

I've never see anything "lift" or "splode" rabbits better than a 308 shooting 150g Core Lokts. All from a 1-12 twist.

I guess that beats multiple legholds and the pellet gun treatment.



Travis

I'm pretty sure people can observe reality without a laboratory.

But there will always be a handful of people that insist there is no difference in 200fps, and there will always be a handful of people that insist plastic tip bullets "don't do anything different" and there will always be a handful of people that need a pack of PhD's and a laboratory to see the advantages of a faster twist.



Travis

Man that sucks.



Travis

Can you see out that eye yet?

Yeah I know. On a Mauser action and all. But I make do.

When I was quite young perhaps 8 years old, I saw a cotton tail hit with a 125 grain bullet out of an 06 at about across the ditch range. Afterwards the rabbit's intestines were hanging from the power line over head and a red cloud where the rabbit used to be. Very impressive for a youngster. Couldn't wait till I got my 06.

Regrading slow twist vs. fast twist: The effect might be that a slow twist with barely stable bullet may tumble when changes of medium and a fast twist might not. But as stated the bullet rotates how many times through an animal??

Or looked at another way, Say the bullet is about to blow up like a sx bullet out of a 22-250. And it hits the target....

I'm sure you'll find a job sooner or later.




Travis

That's for nerds to figure out.



Travis

That is not a good way to start out trying to make a point. "pretty sure" - Guessing won't cut it.

Cuts it just fine from where I sit.

I have all the tools needed to acquire the empirical data. All you've got is jack+schit.



Travis

Travis, as a horseshoer I've fixed close to 70 foundered horses with 100% success over the last 6 years.

Don't know if you know anything about founder but basically that's suppose to be impossible!

A world renowned founder clinic from Texas is apparently fixing 7 out of 10.

So I figure what the heck I'll give them boys a call and see if they'd be willing to have me swing by.

So I call and to cut to the chase I offer to show up and I'll fix the 3 out of 10 they can't fix for free to get my foot in the door and prove what I'm explaining.

After all proof is in the pudding, Right!

So they ask me about my education as I seem to be talking somewhat backyard and farmish!

I believe the mans exact words were "you are not eucated enough for us to waist our time"

The truth is I figured out exactly what they were missing by reading there literature and fixed the first foundered horse I ever worked on and strangely enough I assured the horse owner that I was very confident I would fix the horse.

This wasn't your average foundered horse! The horse had dropped sole and coffin bone rotation to a massive degree and was diagnosed from a top ten veterinary clinic as unfixable.

I remember thinking, if Ive been fixing 10 for 10 and they fix 7 for 10.....well......who really has the proper education here?

In the end my final determination was that it really was not even about education.

It was about Common sense and the ability to see beyond immperical data and laboratories and in the box education.

Kind of like the gun world.

Shod

For those of you that can't follow that metaphor, he is saying fast twist doesn't work, and anyone that believes it does, is a horses' ass...

My dad taught me to read brail at a very early age.

His foresight is uncanny.



Travis

Shod,

If you're saying you'd like to see horses get shot, I am in 100% agreement. They ain't got schit on an internal combustion engine.

Also I think you are referred to as a farrier. Not a horseshoer. Get your schit straight.

If you're agreeing with me, I certainly agree with you and you are welcome to stop by my place any time.

Merry Christmas friendo.



Travis

Oh, so you have seen my "jack+schit" ?

It seems to me that if you shoot an animal in the right spot, with a reasonably suitable bullet, it dies pretty much straight away. I don't know what difference twist rate might make to that, past the point of the bullet being stabilised, because it has never occurred to me to wonder whether animals could get any deader.

Every time you type!


Travis

UBER.



Dave

Thanks for the synopsis. i didn't want to read the whole thing...but as I scanned it, the word "immperical" jumped out at me....


I can't help myself.

That would be, let's see what did you call it, empirical data.

First deer I shot was with a 1-14" 22-250 and a 55 Win soft point.

Mule deer buck with does at 150 yards. Shot him once behind the shoulder and the herd runs behind a hill. Buck appeared uninjured, I thought I missed, what the frick?!


Does all appear from the other side of the hill but no buck...


Hmmm..



Walk around the hill and sure enough the buck was laying on the other side.

He might have ran 100 yards, maybe 75.


Slow twist, slow death story.....grin

What is this ancient 22-250 you speak of?




Travis

Using the 178 gr example, do you lose any velocity by going from 1-10 to a 1-8 twist ?

Contrary to popular belief twist does not affect velocity. A friend that works with a ballistics lab told me they have tested this and pressure is not affected meaningfully. They tested a 7 twist VS a 14 twist.

If fast twists cause lower velocity I have never seen any evidence of it.

A 9lb push feed M70, it's out at my parent's house.

Got it brand new(1990?) from the Coast To Coast hardware store.


You guys should try the smaller bores on deer sometimes.... Very effective under the right circumstances!

Would you agree that a small bore in the hands of a Rez hunter would not be under the right circumstances?

Depending on the season I think I would agree!

If you do just add more powder.




Travis

If we assume that rotational velocity (spin) decreases at the same rate as flight velocity the bullet won't be spinning much when it contacts game , depending on range of course. And I'll bet it slows to nothing when it expands...a bullet is not a good flywheel. It's mass is not far from the center.

See if you can find any ballistic gel tests showing spiral lines in the cavity.

Do you notice a difference?



Travis

JB just noted a test or two for that and says rotational velocity does not slow nearly as fast as flight velocity. I don't remember why, but I was surprised by it.

What do I win?

Rotational spin does not slow nearly as much as linear velocity.

This just in...

A study from ACME Ballisticians states there is absolutely no connection of fast twist and faster death...

Too fuggin' funny...




Travis

You are just using that to support your argument that a wood stocked .222 mag with a 12 twist kills just as quickly as a synthetic .223AI with an 8 twist...


Just keep on living in your little dream world.....my gophs and PDs don't even have time to scream when they are hit

This pretty much sums up the internet.

Hmmm...

Shot four deer with 28 twist ML rifles this fall. All four went straight down and died in their tracks. All four had nasty damage. All four killed with Barnes 250 grain T-EZ.

I am of the opinion that faster twist and fragile bullets do kill faster (well bigger splatter factor any way). 1700 FPS in a 28 twist barrel is neither fast twist nor high velocity.

I don't think the answer is quite so simple.

The title of this thread should be "Fast Twist = More Terminal Damage". Take the same bullet same load same velocity from a 7 twist against a 14 twist and the difference is apparent.

Why would we assume that?

Checkout the multiple rotations the bullet makes as it passes through a 16" length of ballistic gelletin.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308_180gr_TSX_6fps_logo.mov

That's more like it...

It doesn't.

I've been there, but not with fast twist rifles...

It seems some are talking faster death, while others are talking more dramatic death.

I don't know if a faster twist kills small critters faster, but it sure does seem to produce more dramatic results.

Like I said pages ago, these "dramatic results" are not readily apparent, at least not by myself, on larger critters.....

This thread is hilarious.

So if I'm bowhunting...should I be converting all of my arrows with straight-fletched vanes to helical to make them spin faster...and a very radical helical at that?

Which begs the question. Does a right helical kill faster than a left helical? Or does it matter which direction the animal is facing?

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Due to the aforementioned coriolis effect, your helical fletched arrows need to be twisted right north of the equator, and twisted left, south of the equator.

Jeez...do we have to explain everything...?


Try to keep up.

It isn't that dumb of a question when you consider all the guys that believe fast twist kills faster...

Wait a minute..I just heard something zing by my head...

Ingwe, thanks for appreciating my attempt at humor. That is priceless! Gonna have to remember that. Too funny

If one was to use enough speed and twist to generate ubermega-rpm's, could a mono-metal projectile of pin-grabber design grip an animal's hide upon impact, prior to expansion, and effectively turn said critter inside out as it passed through the animal? Think of the time saved from field dressing....

I'd pay good money for a bullet that would stop at skinning a deer.

I agree.......lotsa guessing.

Of course the bullet continues to spin after it contacts stuff.

Geeeezzz....

I'd love to see a video comparing a couple blocks of gelatin. One shot with an 8" twist 223 and the other with a 12".....bullets being shot from the same box of ammo.....

I wonder what effect rifle torque has on ability of the general shooting population to hit well? (Faster twist means more torque.)

(That is the reason all those ghetto guys are seen with the guns held sideways- that's simply the left hand torque of guns which have right hand twist that causes that. )

You've almost got me convinced. I too would like to see that comparison.

True story. A guy in the shop today was buying two Glock 19's. He was holding one in each hand -- sideways. Looked him straight in the eye and told him if I saw him doing that again I wouldn't let anybody punch his paperwork in the system.

He chuckled and put them both back on the counter...

Nothin

Sh1t, I'd never believed it if I hadnt seen this.

its got me thinkin'

280 grain 7mm........4" twist ?

the Texas heart shot might work out well

it'll twist the guts up in a knot and you reach in with a pair of long nose pliers, grab the bullet and yank it all out with a quick left hand twist,assuming a rh twist rifle fired the bullet....:-)

I gotta agree with this. I've shot prairie dogs with .223s, using the same ammo out of both 9twist and 12 twist barrels, and it seemed that the 9 twisted guns splatted the rats more, and there was more rotation in the parts d:^). The old Savages spun the rats more than the Howa did. Of course, the rats died regardless of the twist rate or cartridge, they just died harder with the faster rated pipes. All in good fun, of course.

Exactly....it helps expand the bullet.Expanding bullets cause trauma. Trauma is what kills. Nothing mysterious.

"Should I do the ghetto lean?


And maybe a crotch grab?"



TFF!




Of course, whenever possible, I also prefer to shoot "urbanite" style and hold the rifle sideways....

Until someone shoots a live deer standing in an MRI Scanner(if they can scan that fast), all we can do is basically guess - or look at very limited data.

After a bullet's expanded, it would seem logical that the petals work like cutting edges, spinning like a saw blade. Assuming again the bullet goes more or less straight through the animal, more revolutions = a greater length of cut inside the animal. The more big blood vessels that are cut by the bullet's passing, the quicker it dies.

As far as launching a varmint, I shot a cottontail once with a .25-06 (before I realized they were good to eat ). It was a 120gr factory load, out of a 1 in 10" barrel. I recover from the recoil, look up, and see a patch of fur reaching the apex of its flight, about 15 or 20 feet in the air. My buddy said, Gawd dayummmm We walked up and about half the bunny had simply vanished.

'sploding critters are highly non-linear

Only 'cause you mist.