I can get loads of 12 gauge buckshot in either #4buck or #00buck.

Which would serve better in a socially perverse situation?

#1 Buck


Mike

Inside buildings plain ol bird shot has its place.

As far as your choices, there is not a bad choice with either.

I would lean #00 for a little more reach, #4 sure fills a few more holes in a pattern.

Bigger is better

I like #2 myself but that is me.

#4. It will disable anything that you encounter inside your house and it won't shoot through most walls, endangering anyone who happens to be in an adjacent room.

Ought squared.

The Federal # FC-LE1321B the best if you can find it.

Hell, Cheney couldn't kill a 78 year old man by shooting him in the face with birdshot, might be a moral in there.


I'll stick with the big stuff. Not looking to try to get small stuff through 3 layers of clothing and heavy winter jackets.

Depends on what your rig likes..

For 00, my 870 like Federal Low Recoil.. But I'm currently running #4 for multiple needs around the Rancho.

#4 buck is amazing. Think 27 simultaneous hits from a 22LR. Sort of.

#4

Has all of the reach one needs for social intercourse, will pattern better, etc, etc.

Or 12 to 15 simultaneous hits from a 338.

Sure works on Lawn Lions..

#4 buck simply because that is what I use in my coyote hunting 870. Work for any varmit no matter how many legs they've got.

Social work is a general term.

Social work inside the home ? around the home in the yard ? in the streets ? in the timber ?




Mike

The Federal Bureau of Prisons uses #4. That's what I trained with so that's what I have on hand.

Dan

7 1/2 bird shot...............surgeon's nightmare

Moral: Lawyers never kill each other as they eschew having to learn the strengths and weaknesses of new opponents. Maiming is considered socially acceptable.

20 bore #3 buck: 2-3/4" will mostly penetrate thru and thru on a 250# hog on a broadside shot inside of 30 yards. Bone will stop them, flesh won't.

shoot a 2x4 with a load of #4 buck, then a load of 00, and see the difference.

I shoot lots of buck. OO is the way to go if peeps is the target. 4's just don't have enough penetration. They will go "splat" on a thick skull.

If it can kill a 150 lb whitetail buck running , it will have zero problems killing a perp and it won't shoot thru the walls. If I shoot at a Perp with #4 shot I don't expect them to survive.

00 - I'd rather use a mortician's nightmare than a surgeon's nightmare....

1) If they're inside the "walls", #9's will work just as well, or better.
2) Possibly killing a whitetail deer and absolutely stopping an attacker have little in common.

what the [bleep] are your walls made of? Inside a house I can't believe 2 sheets of 1/2 drywall is stopping 7 1/2, let alone #4 buck.

"Thru" the walls which I mean exterior walls in my house would be 1/2 sheetrock,1/2plywood and siding. I hope it does not shoot thru it but if it does it should stop on the neighbors sheathing. Inside walls it should go right thru, I am concerned about killing my neighbors. I know the location of everyone else in my house.

There is no possibly killing a whitetail deer..it was hit and died with # 4, you know the chitt you said would splat on your skull. I would think a deer would withstand a buckshot load a whole lot better then a human. .

Back to the original, given that choice I would take the #4.

There are guys over at M4 Carbine who make a compelling arguement for this size. Whatever you buy, if you are after tight patterns, Federal's Flight Control Wad is what you want. It SPANKS everything else.

ought to get that on a t shirt of bumper sticker!

Behind my door are 5 double O's, in a model 12

00 Buck, with a couple Foster slugs as back up.

By possibly, I mean they won't kill you if they run away. I've seen lots of stuff shot with #4 buck, including a couple of exceptionally thick skulled democrats it didn't stop that 00's would have. I've also seen many killed with a load of #6's from a .410. I reckon it just depends how many times you want to shoot 'em and how far it is okay for them to run.

You might want to pattern some in your gun at the range you anticipate using it.

But we are talking about someone breaking into your home correct? I mean if this were to occur outside a house then by all means I would pick 00 or 000 without hesitation. I just don't think you need more then 4 buck inside a house

Heck, I don't know...he said "social work". I suppose it would have been better if I'd a just said...

"Any size will work, but remember, don't count on shooting a democrat in the head.".

Seems we are talking defense, period. There is no reason to pick #4 over 00.

We sure weren't racked up with #4 when boarding a 25' boat and I've seen the difference betwixt the two.

Of course the coyote and deer killing analogies are wonderful arguments when we are discussing stopping a meth head.

it depends on how far you anticipate shooting. At room distances bird shot has not had time to dispurse and you get a thick pattern.
Try 00 buck at about 30 yards and see what you get.
number four is a much denser cloud even tho the individual pellets are not as heavy as 00, but you get more of them. There is a guy in the area here that does do a number on the chamber mouth of shotguns that makes them shoot longer5.

00 buck is what you want.

Monty Python and the Theory of Buckshot.

a 1 1/4 ounce column of lead travelling 1200 fps in a 12' x 12' room ..what difference does it make it ? it will cut whatever it hits in half.

I'm surprised steel shot hasn't been mentioned yet.

I like Bismuth....

I've seen plenty folks killed with steel...no Bismuth though. I'm thinking it's too expensive to waste on gabboons.

00, think nine .357 magnum rounds all at the same time . The first two rounds are 00, then slugs if I need to dig deeper into the tube. I added a night light to mine which I really like since I live out in the weeds and it better than fumbling with a flashlight if I have to go outside when things go bump in the night.


I would never trust my life to birdshot, just not enough energy.

I would. The only reason we don't consider using it professionally is because it's considered cruel when humans are the intended target. Think eyes.

Yep. wouldnt want to be cruel while I was using deadly force...

You know the drill.

Yep.

I am sure the quick reply was utilized and you were mentioning the deer as to the poster who said it would kill a whitetail.

My reasoning had nothing to do with killing a coyote but having to do with what I have on hand and what is in the shotgun at the time. I have heard arguements for and against birdshot vs #4 vs OO and #4 comes recommended along with the other. I feel like home defense ranges they will all probably work and I've got #4 in the shotgun which will probably still be in the shotgun cause I imagine I will probably have grabbed the 45 and used it.

I have my short black shotguns loaded with #1 buck. 16 .30 pellets packed into on shell. Talk about high capicity.

Depends on the anticipated area of use and range. Having said that, I have two defensive shotguns. One - with a pistol grip, no stock, chamber limited to 2 1/2" shells only - I keep loaded with #1 shot. The other, with a regular stock, extended magazine, and 3" chamber, I keep loaded with #00 shot. For anticipated close range, maybe 30 feet or so, the #4 shot would do just fine. Anything farther than that, I would want larger shot. I would not want to be on the business end of any of them. JMHO,YMMV. Hopefully, neither of us will have reason to report results.

Merry CHRISTmas to all!

I just checked the ole sawed- off Mod 37 behind the door. Two #4 buck, one 00 buck and one #6 lead, in no particular order.

Merry Christmas

I have some nice Platinum 00 custom hand loads.

Yup thats the first round in a bear defensive shotgun, can't see can't smell.

Have a Mossy 500 with 3-inch chamber. For 3-inch 00-buck you get 15 pellets rather than 9 for 2-3/4 inch. For #4 buck in 3-inch you get 41 pellets instead of 27 in 2-3/4 inch. I have both and plan to pattern them.

Seen 2 people intentionally shot with 00 buck. One was about 90 yards away on foot, the other was through a windshield. Neither died but both were stopped. One deer about 50 yards, it went down like it was hit with a hammer but required finishing shots. Never seen anything shot with #4 buck. Just my .02

Winchester X12C1B 20 pellets of copper plated #1 Buck in a 2-3/4" hull.

It's very bad chit up close.

Gunner

a 90 yard shot at anything with 00 buck is always a bad idea.

I hunted in a state for 27 years that only allowed Buckshot...One Buck a year and a doe during doe day. We used 00 and 000 when available. These were shots up to maybe a max of 50 yards out of a cylinder bore and in most cases a modified choke. We used #4 Buck a few times on deer and it was pretty effective as well. Inside a house confronting an intruder I doubt it makes a gnats azz difference between all the loads except birdshot.

Reading a lot of "thinkin'", thinkin' a lot of guesswork, assumptions and good fashion dogma is runnin' amok on this topic. Question I have is how many here have actually killed a lot of critters with a variety of gauges and different sized buckshot? Trying to separate theory from fact on this.

You do not always get to pick the circumstances, but it stopped him.

No doubt a single pellet or 2 would have done the job..not killed him but incapacitated him for sure. Its just those pellets just deform and spread out so much after 50-60 that it is a crap shoot.

Not as pretty as the Rem, but that Mossberg and tang safety, personally, makes a comforting home defense weapon.

2-4-6-8 (whatever was last put in there from hunting use) alternated with slugs.

I'm wondering if you-all patterned those 00 loads years ago.

The deer hunters ahead of hounds years ago routinely used full choke guns and it was pretty common to use no. 1 Buck back then as many guns patterened it better.

After college my first buy was a Browning Auto 5 FC. Try hunting dove with that. Put a newspaper at 50 yards and a load of 00 would only hit with about 3 pellets, unbelievably strung in a vertical pattern. Alas, it was a deer killer with those #1buck.

I live right next to the Roosevelt National Forest in the Colorado Rockies. Every year between spring and winter we seem to have one or more black bear encounters. Never had a human encounter yet here in Colorado (Florida is another story). So I load the first 3 rounds in bear season with 12 ga Brenneke hard cast slugs with 3-inch 00-buck behind that. In winter I have all 00-buck with 6 slugs in the side saddle. Been thinking about #4 buck in winter for denser patterns. Longest shot inside the house would be 20 yards. Considering having a loaded rifle for more choices. A M1A and 20 round mag would be one possibility.

My uncle was a forester with a timber co. and fed his crew a lot of deer from Polk Co. big thicket country. He had a single shot break open Win. FC that he killed several deer with at over 80 steps. I heard one was at 110. Having habit some buckshot experience, I figure the hounds affected the recovery. I switched to using 23/4 short mags due to poor penetration of buckshot and it seemed to help.

There were a lot of deer lost in those days to bad shots, buckshot, and running deer in timber. Only the hounds made it a viable activity IMO.

Well dog hunting was not allowed statewide where I lived . A lot of of deer were wounded when people did not realize the limitations of a shotgun. For the most part we hunted from the ground , rarely from trees and usually had 30 yard shots if that for the most part.

Have never used 00 buck on living critter (2 or 4 legs), but have used 4 buck with great effect out to 70 yards on coyotes. Currently have 1100 w/extend tude loaded with 10 12ga 2 3/4" 0 buck. If that doesn't take care of business, then I think Darwin has spoken and I didn't deserve to make it.

A child cousin habit gotten into some sky blue paint and partially painted a part pf it. From then on that Winchester 37 was called 'old blue'. As a kid I waded down Sulphur Creek (quiet without the oak leaf duff) one Christmas campout hunt and killed my first squirrel. After that, the creek was too cold for use in squirrel hunting.

"20 bore #3 buck: 2-3/4" will mostly penetrate thru and thru on a 250# hog on a broadside shot inside of 30 yards."

Ive never used a shotgun on hogs, but I'm really surprised by your statement after having killed a LOT of hogs with different rifle and pistol cartridges.I'm surprised to hear of a shotgun pellet penetrating more than a 300 gr. jacketed HP from a 45-70, and they sure as hell don't always exit on a 250 lb. hog.

One of my best friends and deer hunting partners has a helicopter and hog eradication is one of the things he does.

He tried lots of different stuff early on but claims that 00 buck is the only thing worth considering.

That Cur, is good to know. IT usually take s several shots from my 223 with 55gr SP to down a big hog.

Can you guys post some pics of your shotgun patterns at 60,70, and 80 yards?

Dink

Think I'd vote #1 buck. But it's not very easy to find.

00 is easy to find and fine for social work. Dixie Tri-Ball (.60) is very effective if you're anti-social.

.

Think a 10 gauge Ithaca Roadblocker with slugs ought to be up to the task.

.

Man, that was 40 years ago. Hang a news paper on a fence. It can be educational. I doubt I ever fired at paper other than about at 50 good steps. We were raised tight on our shells. Sometimes as a kid I would walk to town through the woods and only buy 7 or 8 shells from old man Maxey. He owned Maxey's.

Yea, there's a lot of things I wish I habit from long ago. A picture of a lot of fish I caught or deer I killed would fill a big hole. My first big Buck or that bobcat I nailed with my Ben Pearson hunter as it snuck up on the doe and two fawns would be mice. Also, those baseball cards of Roger Maris and Mickey Mantel and Willie Mays would be nice. The 3 point rack on that first Buck that bounced by ahead of someones hounds after I got tired of waiting for him at the gap and moved down on the branch and inserted the high base duck load 4s so I could kill those two big old fox squirrels that had been tempting me for a few hours. Imagine my chagrin (despair) to look 80 yards up the timbered hill to see what would have been my first deer jump the fence I had left 15 min. before after posting all day. But he came my way and at 18 yards he kept high to cross the branch at a run Ann the 4s took him through the front feet and heart and lungs with the first shot and before he touched ground the second shot from the FC monkey Ward pump hit him in the kidneys and loins. He hit and laid with a front hoof up and between his horns. THANK YOU JESUS.

Please forgive iPhone spell check.PS some of those 4 duck shot overpenetrated, exiting the far side. PS many a dog man has ment to pepper his dog at 60 yards with #6 shot and never got the chance to reprimand Fido again.

Last Oct I caught one in the belly from about 85 yards while hunting dove by a waterhole and it brought blood and hurt like hell. I thought it was 6 shot and mentioned it to the kids dad. I can't remembe7r now but he may have told me it was 71/2.

Federal Tactical 00 at just under 1200 FPS is your huckleberry.

MM

I have killed two deer with a shotgun. One crippled doe at 10 yards with a head shot of eights or 7 1/2s and another doe with 16 gauge load of 12 pellets of number ones at 25 yards. Both DRT.

My family house gun is an 870 youth twenty with a load of #8 in the barrel, followed by four buckshot loads of #3 in the magazine.

Well, the thing is that buckshot won't expand where your .45-70 bullet does. Back in the mid '90s I had occasion to put down over 70 hogs, a couple of yotes and a few other assorted critters with buckshot. Mostly used #3 buck in a 20 ga but also used other gauges and shot sizes. Smaller buck is a quicker killer than large is the distilled message. Thinking it occurs because the number of wounds are higher.

I seldom shot anything beyond 30 yards and think folks shooting out beyond 40-50 yards are sprayin' and prayin'. My comments about buck penetrating thru and thru was not BS, just reporting the facts. Note too that I qualified that by saying it wouldn't happen if bone was struck.

BTW, a load of #8 birdshot at 20' will kill a hog deader'n a stump right where it stands.

I gotta ask what ya'll think of using steel shot and how effective it would be against body armour?
Seeing what it does to waterfowl, i don't want to get hit with a load of t's!

The last actual shoot-out locally involving buckshot involved three police agencies using different shot sizes: One was #4, one was #0 and the other #00. This was a running gun battle for the most part on a freeway. Care had to be taken because hostages were involved. Spike strips were used and the tires were flattened also by gunfire. The subject after taking loads of #4 and #0 was finally stopped by the officer replacing #00 with a slug. First shot with the slug at close range in the subject's head ended the confrontation and the subjects life. Subject was high on meth.

I have never shot the first load of steel shot. My opinion os steel shot v body armor is you're looking at a non-starter. It takes different properties to punch thru armor as compared to flesh.

On the other hand, unprotected heads, legs, arms and crotches remain vulnerable when wearing body armor so far as I know.

To touch again on the relative penetration of shot versus bullets in game animals, I've seen a similar result with use of CB shorts as compared to HVHP shorts an SV LR bullets. Expansion reduces penetration irrespective of impact energy, mass or energy. CB shorts will penetrate far deeper than HVHP ammo, or even SV LR. The CBs retain whatever SD they start with while the higher velocity bullet expand greatly...and stop. I think the analogy works with buck and conicals for the same reason.

Inside the typical room I would think the concussion from a 12 gauge would be enough to disable both the shooter and the shootee!

Jim

Right, that's why they invented ghost-ring shotgun sights, Remington low-recoil slugs, side-saddles, and select-slug drills. You give me an 870 so equipped and about 2 seconds and you'll be [bleep].

Steel shot will not penetrate a vest any further than lead in the 'testing' that I've done.
I was disappointed with the level of penetration from a 12 Ga shotgun at anything past 10 feet.
A slug, while not penetrating a vest at all, will leave it's mark!

Well, just so happens that I load and use both those sizes for most of my social work.

Here's my question back to the OP....why not use both?

I've used OO Buck on critters and I shoot #4 Buck for song dogs and any other varmint I'm after. Both have merits and will work fine.

My current loading in the Benelli M2 is 3 rounds of #4 buck, followed by 2 rounds of nickle plated 00 buck. I leave the chamber open with a round of 3" lead BB ready to stuff in it. This way I'm ready to kill a raiding Raccoon, or Coyote in the back yard (I live way in the country) or am set to deal with a two legged varmint as well.....

Good luck

IMHO, the Winchester slug and 3-00 buck load is ideal. They are in all of my home guns. This load covers all the ranges I may need.

80 yard buckshot patterns would be, for the most part, too revealing.

Fixed to fit the OP's question. Figure it cuts the # of guys with first hand knowledge down a bit.

Well, I never killed people with buck but have used it on monkeys, do that help?

00 to deer head at 30ft was so devastating.

NRA Magazine article from test results about 30 years ago suggested that #4 shot offered the best penetration/knock down inside a building with less chance of going thru walls & injuring the innocent.

It would seem if someone is shooting at me that I'd prefer something that could shoot through walls. I figure people are quicker to shoot from behind a wall then say a broom.

I'm also curious, what percentage of bad guys make ammo choices based on what is less likely to penetrate a wall?

Point one: I have had the occasion to see several dead people did in by scatterguns. The worst damage I saw was by a charge of 7 1/2's. Can you say "bloody rathole"??? Point two: to answer Steelie, the bg's don't worry about anybody else's life and have no interest in liability. Standard issue citizen,one each does tend to care about such matters.

The wall penetration issue is a valid one if the possibility of family members on the other side. That not withstading, I prefer #1 shot over 00. #1 equates to 30 cal and there are lots more of them than 00 in your standard 2 3/4" shell.

I already answered that and they don't want to hear it. 00 will work in instances that #4 won't. I've never witnessed any advantage in smaller shoot, other than the fact it is less lethal, which may be desired.

I'll stick with 00 (1's would be fine also and I have some). I'd rather a load of 00 at 20 yards than 7 1/2's

What are you shooting buckshot or slugs? Buckshot at 90 is praying.

DD, do you know if the police ever pattern their shotguns with different loads?

I wonder what choke they use, also.

Pattern professionally? I doubt it, but we qualify with it all the time. Most "police" guns are cylinder bore.

I'm sora like Terry. My own preference is toward 0 buck, rather than 00 as I get three more pellets and I don't give up anything in penetration.

Now, if I were having to pick between #4 and OO buck, I'd opt for 00.

Yep. They get patterned quite often. We ended up going with Federal 00 "Tactical" loads for our 870's.

They are loaded with "flitecontrol" wads that pretty much land 9 pellets in 2" at 15 yards or so.

This from cylinder bore shotguns, and from a few Improved Cylinder.

Dunno I'd disagree with ET on planning analysis. Probably because social debate is a variable thing I don't personally depend on a single menu item. Simply put, if I want to shoot thru walls I will. I concluded long ago that multiple choice tests were more enjoyable than essays, so enter into social discourse with an open mind I say.

It was suggested above that only experience with shooting people is relevant to the debate and I'm not going to sign off on the idea any more than the US Government does or has in the past. Ballistic tests are all well and good, but experience works pretty well for me. What my experience says is that at reasonably close range buckshot is a quicker killer than rifle or pistol bullets on game animals. I define close range as 30 yards or less. Smaller diameter buck is more effective than large, across the board, my reasons for saying this already enumerated. Having said this, I readily admit the perspective is counter to beliefs I held in younger days.

The number and species of game animals I've taken in my life is substantial. So far as the applied style of weapon, it would be about 50/50 for rifles and shotguns with a smattering of pistol kills thrown into the mix. Rifles win at longer range certainly but short of explosives, nothing trumps a shotgun at close range IMO.

Lastly, I've seen about as many people go down as critters and jerked to trigger on more than a few, this with M16s, M60s etc. Comparatively speaking, people are a whole bunch easier to stop than critters.

End of my contribution to this debate, carry on.

I've done a little shooting with a 12 gauge inside a room. I saw muzzle flashes but due to auditory exclusion, did not hear the shots.

The often overlooked BB Shot..

That would be a select SLUG drill, I said NOTHING about buckshot at 90yd. My cyl bore 870 will put three Rem low recoil slugs into eight inches at 100yd.

Thanks CT. I know that years ago we found that some shotguns also didn't shoot to point of aim.

We used to pattern our duty shotguns quarterly along with qualifying with them and our side arms and rifles.

00 Buck is my preference based on seeing bad guys shot with it and going to shooting/homicide scenes.

Ghost Ring sights, side-saddles, 2 3/4" Brenneke slugs, and a Vang Comp'ed barrel is the ticket.
9" patterns of Federal Premuim 00 Buck (2 3/4") @ 25yds, were the norm. Other guys' shotguns preferred Remington ammo. I could keep 8 of the 9 pellets on a Brussels target @ 50 yds if I really paid attention to the sights. 2 1/2" groups @ 100yds with the Brenneke slugs were also the norm.

There's not much you can't kill with a shotgun.

Ed

Here is your response to my post of 00 at 90 yards a bad idea


Slugs yes 00 no at 90 yards

Double dog anyone to stand in front of someone at 90 yards throwing 00 buck.

I'll TRIPLE-Dog dare 'em!

Ed

g

Can you guarantee hitting a person at 90 yards with 00 buck on a consistent basis vs a rifle slug ?

I think steel is only required if the bad guys are migratory. Then there is that thing about a 3 shot plug too.

LOL

" 2 1/2" groups @ 100yds with the Brenneke slugs were also the norm."

You might consider bringing that to our next PD hunt.......... leave that ugly black thing at the house.

Just for the discussion, seen two bad guys take #4 Buck and still want to play. 00 for close to mid range and slugs on out would be my choice.

YMMV

The Vang back boring & lengthening the forcing cone are primarily for buck/pellet pattern improvements, right?

Did/does the Vang comp impact slug accuracy as well?

Thanks

Ed, i was pleasantly surprised with the accuracy from the Brenneke KO slugs in my smooth-bore A-5 Browning barrel, and it chronoed at near 1600 fps, a 1 ounce slug with that kind of speed and accuracy would be perfect for a 24HCF Boar hunt.

Gunner

Forget the vang and get one of these for your 870..

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...oke-with-tritium-rifle-sights-parkerized

Nice..I have an 870 18.5 ic barrel and the above option is a whole lot better . Wish they came from the factory with that barrel

Stray round, you bring up an interesting point. Because I live in California most of the bad guys are migratory, maybe I'd better get some steel shot.

Buy it, and ebay the IC barrel. The mod barrel is the cats ass.

Enjoyed the imput on this thread ,points a guy in the right directions without spending a lot a cash trying ever damn load out there. I allways keep the 20 ga Express loaded with the #3 buck 20 pellet load cause that's all there was for the 20. One day a buddy came out with his new Saiga 12 and Fed Premiun 12ga 00 buck loads to try for patterns on my railroad tie backstop. His non choked effective patterns stopped at 25yds penetration was mostly < 1/2" and some bounced back but cresote soaked rr ties are pretty tough. I am not afraid of being assaulted by rr ties it was just what my backstop is for reference. I thought about that for a couple of weeks and then went spring goose hunting out east,I hit a con store for gas in Watertown SD. They also sold all sorts of shells and some older 2 3/4" Fed steel was being dumped by the flat real cheap. 2 3/4" Fed T shot for $65 a flat so I got him a couple of flats for his Saiga , uh I mean goose gun. For inside the house use, I can't imagine that load being ineffective. But back to the 20 load, a while back a guy I know gave me a large amt of .530 muzzleloader balls he had incorrectly cast with lead containing tin and antimony which made them hard enough to not be able to get them down the barrel of his 54. So they been a sitting around waitng for me to recycle into .358 bullets or something else. 2 of them fit perfectly in the shot cup of a 1 oz Rem power piston wad and weigh just under an 1 oz. 40 grs of grex spread thru bottom layer ,between the bottom ball and top one and a little over the top. They crimp nice . I used a powder charge for a 1 oz load. At slightly over 1200 fps the gave me a 2" pair of holes at 20 yds .53 caliber. 5 shots thru the gun in 4 seconds,I can keep all 10 53 calibur balls on a paper plate at 35 yds with ease. penetration on the same rr ties is 4-5". Not telling anyone else what to use, I have my own answers that look too me will work. Magnum Man

Yeah...but you're a shotgun nut. You said "grex".

I use the KO's in my mossberg for deer. Doesnt get much use anymore, but it shoots nice out of smooth and rifled barrel. Not as accurate as the RemCopper Solids, but the KO's are MUCH cheaper and go on sale frequently, hit like a sledgehammer, and are easily Minute-of-deer at normal ranges.

There's also a KO Sabot. Substantially less recoil. I dont recall the stated velocity or mass of the slug, but the slug looks like a smaller version of the full bore brenneke. It was a really nice shooter in the rifled barrl, not so much in the smooth bore. As I recall the POI was much different from all of the other slugs (much higher).

I dont use slugs much anymore so I stopped messing around with them.

Sorry for the derail.

Yeah Lt. but I spoke in common terms so everone could understand and did not use any "gack" to make my points(2 at every pull of the trigger). Wishing you and yours a great Holiday season. Magnum Man

Sounds cool to me! I'd like to shoot a hog with one. Merry Christmas!

Anyone try Federals 20 gauge no.4 buck load? Copper plated @1100 fps. I haven't tried it yet but bought ten boxes to try.


I would still like to see the patterns from 60,80 and 90 yards.

Dink

Unfortunately (for me), I bequeathed my 870 to a rookie when I retired. I haven't had another one built yet.

BTW, that was with a 14" barrel, not a 18" barrel!

So, "Old Ugly Black Thing" will still have to travel until I gather the shekels to have Mickey build a proper .223AI on my Model 7.

Ed

True, the primary goal was to tighten the pattern of buckshot to improve the hit ratio and cut down the probability of an errant pellet striking something we didn't want to hit.

The pleasant side-effect of Hans Vang's improvements is greater slug accuracy.

I helped pattern all of the Department's 870's when they switched over to Vang barrels as well as sight them in at 100yds with Brenneke slugs. We learned a lot about different buckshot and slugs while doing this.

The general rule was that 2 3/4" buckshot loads spread less than 3" loads, and 2 3/4" slug loads were vastly more accurate at 100yds through all shotguns we tested.

Most shotguns we tested (870's & Mossberg 500's) preferred either Federal Premium 00 Buck or Remington reduced recoil (aka "Tactical Load") 8 pellet 00 Buck.

Brenneke 2 3/4" slugs were roughly 50% more accurate than anyone's 3" slug loads, and none of the Forster slugs could match the Brennekes @ 100yds out of a smooth-bore.

Two of us, Ted Smith and myself, shot over 2,000 rounds of buckshot and over 500 rounds of slugs in a week of testing and patterning shotguns.

Once we had done the initial patterning and grouping, the shotguns were issued to the officers and THEY then had to pattern it and make final sight adjustments as part of their qualifications before they could carry it.

Ed

If you got a good one of those, hang onto it. After measuring hundreds of Remington slug barrels I have come to the conclusion that they use Wingmaster seconds for the slug barrels. The inside dimensions are all over the place with more than a few being bored off-center.

I'll stick to my Vang, thank you. I KNOW it's a good barrel right out of the box.

Ed

Didn't know they made such a creature. I keep a little 20 ga. SxS laying around here with 19 inch barrels. Used to be my CAS shotgun, but with #3 BUCK, I figured it would do to help repel boarders.

That figures. What a bunch of corksuckers.

#4 without hesitation.

I keep buck and ball in my home shotgun. One .650 ball and 6 #1 buckshot.

Peter H. Capstick wrote a series of articles in the late 70's and early 80's about how much more effective No. 1 Buck was for thin skinned dangerous game than was 00 Buck. Capstick came to prefer No. 1 Buck for following up the big cats in the thick stuff. That seems to be the current trend in full out shotshell defensive loads with several new LE/defensive loads being promised from the various manufacturers. Mathematically No. 1 Buck makes good sense and seems to be worthy of a good trial on the pattern boards.

Hell, just make your own, load an oz 20 gauge with 3 36 cal round balls, that should do the job.

Velocity seems to be the enemy of buckshot performance. Always seems like the lower velocity cartridges pattern better.

Wow--I didn't realize that this question would generate so much response. Thanks for all the input.

Unfortunately, anything that won't penetrate interior walls also won't much penetrate bad guys.

The whole idea is to get the job done fast. Frankly, just the racking of a pump will send most people running like hell. Anyone who knows anything, knows a scattergun pointed in their direction is going to be messy.

They are the ultimate home defense, IMO. A "number" of them placed here and there, loaded to the gills with 00, but the chambers empty.

Great info, many thanks, Ed. You have a sore shoulder after that many 12 ga rounds?

Low velocity shot of any size generally patterns better due to the lack of sonic shock wave induced dispersion.
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXz_Aftj8rE&sns=em [/video]

Ed was known as Chuck Norris of the North.His shoulder broke 5 stocks during the testing.

Damn

I use Remington #4 buck in my Winchester 1300 because it patterns great at 25 yards.

FWIW....

Oldelkhunter, yeah, hiding behind wallboard ain't gonna help much if somebody is blasting' with buck

real story... I was shot about 8 years ago with a shotgun in a hunting accident.It hurts like hell.Took over 80 hits from #7.5 shot to the legs,arms and chest,some in the face.
Three things worked in my favor,heavy upland clothing,eye glasses and part of a Cedar tree, all this within 25 FEET! While there was not enough "force" to put me down,the shock brought me to my knees.Then the bleeding and burning sensation started,all over...
Had this had been a "self-defense"shooting I could have returned fire to the shooter...so forget the use of "birdshot" for home defense,unless you have a Dove breaking in....

Yeah... my Dad took a 3/4oz. of 7.5's to the back of the head at 20', 55 years ago. They're still there and he's still alive.

So now we know where you got so hard headed.

Glad your dad is OK. Merry chrisrmas, LT.

Birdshot in a bear gun? #4 buck or larger should blind a bear better.

Merry Christmas!

The two video links posted above are very informative and interesting. Thanks for posting them.