Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
... And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
Perhaps they are convinced that there is some nefarious plot on the part of the public to buy up all of the ammunition so that they cannot get ahold of any.
I can just see an agency posting on whatever website used by the various departments and self-righteously congratulating itself for being wise enough to see this coming and calling those agencies who did not stock up ahead of time all sorts of condescending names and excoriating them for being so short-sighted.
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
88 million rounds in training ; that is for how many people going through this training ???
Couple of departments there say they allocate 1000 rounds per firearm per year for qualification and training, so that would be LEO's qualified on 88,000 firearms in total?
And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
The answer that they have given for this question is that they can lock in low prices if they order for the long term. Rather than paying x.xx now for a box of (insert ammo here), and having to pay y.yy for the same box of ammo next year, and so on and so on, they can buy up all the ammo that they need for the next 5 years or so at a low price now.
Not that it's a valid excuse, it's just the one that they are giving right now...
And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
The answer that they have given for this question is that they can lock in low prices if they order for the long term. Rather than paying x.xx now for a box of (insert ammo here), and having to pay y.yy for the same box of ammo next year, and so on and so on, they can buy up all the ammo that they need for the next 5 years or so at a low price now.
Not that it's a valid excuse, it's just the one that they are giving right now...
Reminds me of a book that I was given one time about financial planning. The author's advice for accumulating unfathomable wealth was to fill in the space under your bed with cans of tuna purchased on sale.
And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
The answer that they have given for this question is that they can lock in low prices if they order for the long term. Rather than paying x.xx now for a box of (insert ammo here), and having to pay y.yy for the same box of ammo next year, and so on and so on, they can buy up all the ammo that they need for the next 5 years or so at a low price now.
Not that it's a valid excuse, it's just the one that they are giving right now...
And how MUCH are they paying for the storage facilities and the security for it? Can't visualize how big 260 million rounds would be, but I know it ain't gonna fit in a storage unit and I know DHS doesn't have armories with vaults.
And how MUCH are they paying for the storage facilities and the security for it? Can't visualize how big 260 million rounds would be, but I know it ain't gonna fit in a storage unit and I know DHS doesn't have armories with vaults.
They don't? That's interesting.
Are you aware that DHS is compromised of multiple, separate entities?
This way they can give out grants of ammunition to various LE organizations. Of course, that's in exchange for some sort of fealty, just like every other Fed "grant".
I seriously doubt they get any price break on 105 million rounds versus say, 90 million rounds. Economic order quantities do have a limit.
I know that when I was in the army, we used old abandoned bunkers for ammo storage. Didn't cost a thing.
Who knows where these guys are storing their stuff. Knowing the hypocrisy that they excel at, they are probably paying rent at the Balagio...
Well, let's examine that.
Customs Agents at a Port of Entry in southern California would store their ammunition for training and qualification where? In some magic DHS bunker? Or their own armory?
And how MUCH are they paying for the storage facilities and the security for it? Can't visualize how big 260 million rounds would be, but I know it ain't gonna fit in a storage unit and I know DHS doesn't have armories with vaults.
They don't? That's interesting.
Are you aware that DHS is compromised of multiple, separate entities?
Travis
Are you aware I posted a link which breaks down the ammo purchases, inventory and usage year by year for each of those entities?
I know that when I was in the army, we used old abandoned bunkers for ammo storage. Didn't cost a thing.
Who knows where these guys are storing their stuff. Knowing the hypocrisy that they excel at, they are probably paying rent at the Balagio...
Well, let's examine that.
Customs Agents at a Port of Entry in southern California would store their ammunition for training and qualification where? In some magic DHS bunker? Or their own armory?
Travis
Their bunker is no secret. It's under the grassy knoll...
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
How much does the average shooter have in there inventory?
Your breakdown doesn't identify all the necessary storage facilities though, does it?
Are you suggesting if there are only 10 DHS entities they couldn't have more than 10 storage facilities?
Doesn't identify any storage facilities. Guess I was thinking centralized storage areas, I suppose if they have 250,000 rounds split up between 1,000 locations the storage isn't difficult. I'm more used to thinking of my military days with large freaking ammo vaults and bunkers being available.
Wonder what an audit of those inventories would turn up for actual rounds? In other words, with the current prices I wonder how much walks...
I don't see what precludes the government from buying ammo in the same fashion the public sector has when one considers what happened to the market after the Connecticut massacre.
Are we really bitching because they bought smart, for once?
If there were ever to be any battles with our government, you don't really believe they'd be relying on bullets, do you?
I don't see what precludes the government from buying ammo in the same fashion the public sector has when one considers what happened to the market after the Connecticut massacre.
Are we really bitching because they bought smart, for once?
If there were ever to be any battles with our government, you don't really believe they'd be relying on bullets, do you?
Or more importantly, what entity of DHS do the conspiracy theorists feel will perform the assault on citizens?
I don't see what precludes the government from buying ammo in the same fashion the public sector has when one considers what happened to the market after the Connecticut massacre.
Are we really bitching because they bought smart, for once?
If there were ever to be any battles with our government, you don't really believe they'd be relying on bullets, do you?
I don't see what precludes the government from buying ammo in the same fashion the public sector has when one considers what happened to the market after the Connecticut massacre.
Are we really bitching because they bought smart, for once?
If there were ever to be any battles with our government, you don't really believe they'd be relying on bullets, do you?
Or more importantly, what entity of DHS do the conspiracy theorists feel will perform the assault on citizens?
Travis
All of them, at the same time. They are all automotons incapable of thought and will march to the order of Nappy.
Somebody has to make sure that you're getting your daily requirement of fluoride...
Or border agents covering thousands of road miles, etc?
Are we not to question any numbers? $8 million a year for ammo for training border patrol when they aren't allowed to fire their weapons until after they use their bean bag guns?
Sure you can question. Much of the problem lies in the fact no one chooses to believe in the answer, whether perceived as honest,dishonest or calculated.
Why can't the government be a consumer as consistent as the public consumer, given the circumstances of what happened after Newtown?
Is anyone really trying to persuade me that our government is doing so to prepare for civil war?
Or border agents covering thousands of road miles, etc?
Are we not to question any numbers? $8 million a year for ammo for training border patrol when they aren't allowed to fire their weapons until after they use their bean bag guns?
Bean bags only, those illegal immigrants crossing the border are Democrats with multiple voting rights. GW
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
Just like everyone here on 24hr, they want to stockpile and hoard. Why should the be any different?
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
I have that much, you have that much. Not sure where the leap of faith is.
I never once mentioned civil war.. only thing I questioned was the wisdom of buying and paying for storing and securing 3 years worth of ammunition as opposed to keeping far lower reserves. CBP is keeping an inventory of almost 5,000 rounds per border patrol agent - that strikes me as wasteful.
Two questions; do we have any fire members that are either themselves or family members employed by some division of dhs? Does the government need to shoot you to have attacked you or your Constitutional Rights? You can hem and haw about the fore site of your preparedness for the current lack of ammo availability, but if this keeps up, and it appears it will, they will have accomplished their goal of disarming us without giving the defining incident that would commence hostilities. The fact that of the billions and billions of dollars that are spent by the government, and this is the first time that they are using the excuse of "trying to get a deal" would show me that they have a sick sense of humor anyway. Hate to have the ammo companies get fat off gov contracts like the contractors of military hardware that is built by companies that don t do civilian business. Conspiracy theory? It s happening in real time right before our eyes, some of us are sitting back with hope that the Great Uncle Sugar would never do us this way. Wake up ash-holes, they don t have to physically put you in a camp to have you so far under their thumb that resisting them won t even being an option.
Paperwork day. I move as fast as those typing my dictation. An engineers paperwork can't be that much different.
sitting on a hill enjoyin gthe sunshine...aren't smart phones great? Aloows me to check in on you guys once in a while
=================
Or sitting in a treestand. This is my busy time of year in light of postponing matters from the fall so I could play outdoors.
With long time staff members, a computer, a scanner/printer/fax and a CrackBerry, my clients will think I'm slaving in my office when I'm actually walking a Wyoming hillside with you.
Or border agents covering thousands of road miles, etc?
Are we not to question any numbers? $8 million a year for ammo for training border patrol when they aren't allowed to fire their weapons until after they use their bean bag guns?
That is completely erroneous information.
When you type things like this you make the pro-gun community look foolish.
Two questions; do we have any fire members that are either themselves or family members employed by some division of dhs? Does the government need to shoot you to have attacked you or your Constitutional Rights? You can hem and haw about the fore site of your preparedness for the current lack of ammo availability, but if this keeps up, and it appears it will, they will have accomplished their goal of disarming us without giving the defining incident that would commence hostilities. The fact that of the billions and billions of dollars that are spent by the government, and this is the first time that they are using the excuse of "trying to get a deal" would show me that they have a sick sense of humor anyway. Hate to have the ammo companies get fat off gov contracts like the contractors of military hardware that is built by companies that don t do civilian business. Conspiracy theory? It s happening in real time right before our eyes, some of us are sitting back with hope that the Great Uncle Sugar would never do us this way. Wake up ash-holes, they don t have to physically put you in a camp to have you so far under their thumb that resisting them won t even being an option.
I never once mentioned civil war.. only thing I questioned was the wisdom of buying and paying for storing and securing 3 years worth of ammunition as opposed to keeping far lower reserves. CBP is keeping an inventory of almost 5,000 rounds per border patrol agent - that strikes me as wasteful.
Hmmm...
22,000 uniformed personnel. Figure 75 rounds per qual. 4 times a year that comes to 6,600,000 rounds. Not counting any other type of training, remedials, etc...
The only people that are alarmed by these numbers are people that have never worked on a range.
I never once mentioned civil war.. only thing I questioned was the wisdom of buying and paying for storing and securing 3 years worth of ammunition as opposed to keeping far lower reserves. CBP is keeping an inventory of almost 5,000 rounds per border patrol agent - that strikes me as wasteful.
Many of us maintain an inventory of that and then some. About my 22LR inventory alone. Not even 1 drawer of my ammo cabinet. Same drawer would hold 5000 rds of 223 easley. My point is storeing that much ammo in several areas would not require that much space in reality.
I'd think out government wouldn't even have to fire a single bullet to seek compliance by 90% of the population. Simply turn off the water,electricity and freeze the financial accounts of all involved, plus their innocent family members, and you'd have close to a full tap out,save for the really ultra-tough internet freedom fighters.
We win with our vote and in the courtroom. The rest is simply silly talk.
Yep. I can't believe the idiocy of some people here. I wonder what the annual toilet paper budget is of the DHS? Probably should limit themselves to 3 squares per visit, or bring their own.
I'd think out government wouldn't even have to fire a single bullet to seek compliance by 90% of the population. Simply turn off the water,electricity and freeze the financial accounts of all involved, plus their innocent family members, and you'd have close to a full tap out,save for the really ultra-tough internet freedom fighters.
We win with our vote and in the courtroom. The rest is simply silly talk.
Or border agents covering thousands of road miles, etc?
Are we not to question any numbers? $8 million a year for ammo for training border patrol when they aren't allowed to fire their weapons until after they use their bean bag guns?
That is completely erroneous information.
When you type things like this you make the pro-gun community look foolish.
Travis
It was somewhat in jest because I doubt that 5,000 rounds are fired by agents in the field in total every year considering how often they jail their own agents for defending themselves. But as to bean bags...
I'd think out government wouldn't even have to fire a single bullet to seek compliance by 90% of the population. Simply turn off the water,electricity and freeze the financial accounts of all involved, plus their innocent family members, and you'd have close to a full tap out,save for the really ultra-tough internet freedom fighters.
We win with our vote and in the courtroom. The rest is simply silly talk.
Wow. I think you'd be surprised by what would happen if the government ever turned off the electricity or water to force compliance. Do you have ANY idea how many ex-military are out in the population? I know we don't have the toughness that you courtroom types do, but you are WAY off base here.
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
How much does the average shooter have in there inventory?
Evidently from the recent buying spree, not even a years worth...
Never did understand even folks that go to wmart to buy a couple boxes of ammo during dove season. I buy 10 cases or so every so many years...
Wow. I think you'd be surprised by what would happen if the government ever turned off the electricity or water to force compliance. Do you have ANY idea how many ex-military are out in the population? I know we don't have the toughness that you courtroom types do, but you are WAY off base here. ============
Toughness of courtroom types? That was cute, Calhoun. Do you think they're at least as tough as Internet tough guy types? How about the pragmatic and reality types? Do you think those types factor into the equation?
Actually, Bob, I'll give you some credit. You say 90% would fold - that's probably about right.
Now the question is whether the 30 million that didn't fold would convince the government of the error of it's ways long enough for you legal beagles to get stuff straightened out, or if we'd have to start from scratch afterwards.
30 million cohesive, coordinated people armed with small arms would be a formidable foe for sure.
What reality would leave us with though is 30 million scattered, uncoordinated, distrusting individuals. They wouldn't know who their friends were or who their enemies were and if you said you were a friend, they wouldn't believe ya anyways. That's not very convincing to anyone....
You suggest 30 million which I believe to be greatly exaggerated. I'd say 300K on your best day.
Now, take that 300K and tell me how long they continue the fight once all the power,water,communication and financial resources of themselves and all their immediate and extended family members are shut off. And, if they aren't contained then, how long do you really think it would take our government to isolate them enough for a drone to zero in on their coordinates?
I'm thinking a great many of the military guys might already be cognitively aware of such a reality. DD and hawkeye will roll with you, though.
Wow. I think you'd be surprised by what would happen if the government ever turned off the electricity or water to force compliance. Do you have ANY idea how many ex-military are out in the population? I know we don't have the toughness that you courtroom types do, but you are WAY off base here. ============
Toughness of courtroom types? That was cute, Calhoun. Do you think they're at least as tough as Internet tough guy types? How about the pragmatic and reality types? Do you think those types factor into the equation?
Here's an example of what's backing up the court system in this country, and is the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. It ain't internet tough guys. Thankfully it doesn't have to be exercised often.
PS: On a grand scale takeover like you mention, I think we'd top 300,000 just on active duty LEO's who would push back - even before you got to the ex-vets. Anyway... WAY off the topic of this thread.
Sure you can question. Much of the problem lies in the fact no one chooses to believe in the answer, whether perceived as honest,dishonest or calculated.
Why can't the government be a consumer as consistent as the public consumer, given the circumstances of what happened after Newtown?
Is anyone really trying to persuade me that our government is doing so to prepare for civil war?
You think they're not? Wtf? Nobody believes them because first off, the answers they're offering are insane and secondly, because they'd rather lie than tell the truth when the truth would serve them better.
Here's an example: Say some black Muslim dude like the killer at Fort Hood, shot Dubya on live national TV and in front of a million people. The government would investigate it for a year or two and spend a couple of billion and then say it was a conspiracy of white supremacists lead by Rush Limbaugh or some such silliness. That's our government and that's why nobody believes their sillyassed horse shixt.
You think they're not? Wtf? Nobody believes them because first off, the answers they're offering are insane and secondly, because they'd rather lie than tell the truth when the truth would serve them better. =============
Ok, you've said it. Now prove it with some convincing evidence. Your opinion alone doesn't meet the standard.
Tell me how DHs' ammo purchases are any different than yours or mine. And, back it up.
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
How much does the average shooter have in there inventory?
Evidently from the recent buying spree, not even a years worth...
Never did understand even folks that go to wmart to buy a couple boxes of ammo during dove season. I buy 10 cases or so every so many years...
Have you always had plenty of money? If you have, then good for you. I haven't. When I was a kid just able to buy my own guns, I had to buy my own ammo too. Money was scarce, even when I worked for the railroad and before college. During college, even scarcer. A guy with a wife and kid or two, maybe just back from the Sandbox, trying to educate himself without college loans...You buy a hundred rounds for your Walmart AR and shoot it all up on the weekend. Maybe you've got a couple of hundred rounds laid back. Some people just can't afford ten thousand rounds Jeff.
You think they're not? Wtf? Nobody believes them because first off, the answers they're offering are insane and secondly, because they'd rather lie than tell the truth when the truth would serve them better. =============
Ok, you've said it. Now prove it with some convincing evidence. Your opinion alone doesn't meet the standard.
Tell me how DHs' ammo purchases are any different than yours or mine. And, back it up.
Kansas City is in the center of the country. DC is on the east coast. LA is on the western edge of the contiguous union. Feel free to believe otherwise, but them's the facts. I don't have time to research things that are self-evident.
I needed a good laugh today and this thread did it for me.
You've made yourself irrelevant here except for comedy.
I forgot, how many years did you work for DHS? How many years in government contracting?
You are a funny, little man.
I'm neither trying to be funny nor to insult you, but just stating observable facts. You used to have a bigger following than you do at present and I think it's waning. Maybe I'm wrong.
How much ammo did you personally contract for DHS in your capacity as a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard? Pardon me if I missed you citing it before, yet you purport to be an expert.
You think they're not? Wtf? Nobody believes them because first off, the answers they're offering are insane and secondly, because they'd rather lie than tell the truth when the truth would serve them better. =============
Ok, you've said it. Now prove it with some convincing evidence. Your opinion alone doesn't meet the standard.
Tell me how DHs' ammo purchases are any different than yours or mine. And, back it up.
Kansas City is in the center of the country. DC is on the east coast. LA is on the western edge of the contiguous union. Feel free to believe otherwise, but them's the facts. I don't have time to research things that are self-evident.
Betting your [bleep] is right about the middle too.
I needed a good laugh today and this thread did it for me.
You've made yourself irrelevant here except for comedy.
I forgot, how many years did you work for DHS? How many years in government contracting?
You are a funny, little man.
I'm neither trying to be funny nor to insult you, but just stating observable facts. You used to have a bigger following than you do at present and I think it's waning. Maybe I'm wrong.
How much ammo did you personally contract for DHS in your capacity as a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard? Pardon me if I missed you citing it before, yet you purport to be an expert.
I spent 4 years in government contracting, including weapons purchases. Even if all I ever did was sharpen pencils my experience with DHS and government contracting would exceed yours by a factor of 1000000000
You think they're not? Wtf? Nobody believes them because first off, the answers they're offering are insane and secondly, because they'd rather lie than tell the truth when the truth would serve them better. =============
Ok, you've said it. Now prove it with some convincing evidence. Your opinion alone doesn't meet the standard.
Tell me how DHs' ammo purchases are any different than yours or mine. And, back it up.
Kansas City is in the center of the country. DC is on the east coast. LA is on the western edge of the contiguous union. Feel free to believe otherwise, but them's the facts. I don't have time to research things that are self-evident.
Betting your [bleep] is right about the middle too.
As far as locations, I'm glad mine's where it's at as opposed to being south of my nose like yours.
I didn't ask about weapons, I asked about ammo. How much were you involved in contracting? You've intimated your experience in it for what, a year now? Ever since this story broke, making fun of Lee and others who have questioned the party line, more or less telling them to sit down and stfu.
How much ammo did you purchase? Where is your experience in this? I mean, if you did, great. I'd like to know a bit about it.
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
That would explain your emotion-based response to this every time it comes up. Please tell us how much ammo you purchased and how you know this is the norm for Homeland Security.
You guys don't question, you make assumptions. There's a big difference.
I don't speak for anybody else and when I quote you as saying you'll shoot US citizens I don't cite a group, I cite you.
If DHS normally purchases say a million rounds a year and suddenly they purchase 1.6 billion, I ask why. If a reasonable answer isn't forthcoming, maybe I make assumptions and maybe I don't. In this case, some of the answers that have been forthcoming from the normal defenders of the faith on this website have been past stupid and into the insane category. I'd welcome anybody who has hard numbers of normal DHS purchases to step up and tell us all about it. I've already asked a self-proclaimed expert and I have high hopes.
Because you kids bite on every red-herring the comes along.
I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly. Again, what people don't know about government contracting is amazing and it takes a long time to begin to grasp it.
Of course you and Lee and whomever can sniff out some story by some nut job and that is the BIBLE. If anyone here attempts to go against the PRESS (which everyone kicks, unless their stories tickle your agenda) then WTF do we know.
People WANT to believe the conspiracies and the man keeping them down. If they didn't then they would have to assume responsibility for their own [bleep] up lives, and we can't have that.
I'd say more but I need to order a few cases of shotgun ammo so I can hand it out to the poor Kansas kids....
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
Pony up some experience based facts or Google it and pretend they come from your own knowledge base. Please tell us how much ammo DHS normally purchases.
After the Connecticut shooting,as well as Obama's reelection, how much extra ammo did the regular gun enthusiast consumer purchase vice what they generally purchased in years past?
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
Pony up some experience based facts or Google it and pretend they come from your own knowledge base. Please tell us how much ammo DHS normally purchases.
I already answered, dipshitt. Please tell me your experience in Government contracting? DHS?
Because you kids bite on every red-herring the comes along.
I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly. Again, what people don't know about government contracting is amazing and it takes a long time to begin to grasp it.
Of course you and Lee and whomever can sniff out some story by some nut job and that is the BIBLE. If anyone here attempts to go against the PRESS (which everyone kicks, unless their stories tickle your agenda) then WTF do we know.
People WANT to believe the conspiracies and the man keeping them down. If they didn't then they would have to assume responsibility for their own [bleep] up lives, and we can't have that.
I'd say more but I need to order a few cases of shotgun ammo so I can hand it out to the poor Kansas kids....
Okay, separating the wheat from the chaff the red part is the gist of your post. So IOW, in terms of hard facts you don't know any more than me about ammo purchases. Your own posts on the subject are speculation and opinion. In your own words, how chickish.
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
Pony up some experience based facts or Google it and pretend they come from your own knowledge base. Please tell us how much ammo DHS normally purchases.
I already answered, dipshitt. Please tell me your experience in Government contracting? DHS?
Hell, for that matter, what do you do for living?
I'm a bodyguard for the Wizard of Oz and as such am in charge of all ammo purchases for the Emerald City.
The peak year for DHS ammo usage in the past three fiscal years was FY2010 with approx. 135 million rounds expended (109 for training and 25 for operations).
The 11/20/2012 DHS ammo inventory was approx. 264 million rounds. That's about two year's worth at the FY2010 usage rate - about what I would expect for inventory.
However, the contracts that DHS requested bids on are for a total of 1.6 billion rounds over five years. They're buying almost 12 years worth of ammo over the next 5 years - that's where the numbers get weird, and that's why people are asking questions about what they're planning to do with that ammo, particularly considering the current budget deficits we're running. Why are they proposing to purchase 2.5 times the amount of ammo they are going to need when the federal government is already spending 50% more than it receives in revenues (i.e., borrowing 1/3 of the money being spent)?
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
Pony up some experience based facts or Google it and pretend they come from your own knowledge base. Please tell us how much ammo DHS normally purchases.
I already answered, dipshitt. Please tell me your experience in Government contracting? DHS?
Hell, for that matter, what do you do for living?
You can get mad and stamp your wittle feet all you want to, but the fact is that I'm doing nothing other than parroting details you yourself have given over the years. You're the one feigning expertise here, not me. I'm serious when I say I'd welcome hard numbers.
Have you ever thought of trying to not be so hot-headed?
Because you kids bite on every red-herring the comes along.
I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly. Again, what people don't know about government contracting is amazing and it takes a long time to begin to grasp it.
Of course you and Lee and whomever can sniff out some story by some nut job and that is the BIBLE. If anyone here attempts to go against the PRESS (which everyone kicks, unless their stories tickle your agenda) then WTF do we know.
People WANT to believe the conspiracies and the man keeping them down. If they didn't then they would have to assume responsibility for their own [bleep] up lives, and we can't have that.
I'd say more but I need to order a few cases of shotgun ammo so I can hand it out to the poor Kansas kids....
Okay, separating the wheat from the chaff the red part is the gist of your post. So IOW, in terms of hard facts you don't know any more than me about ammo purchases. Your own posts on the subject are speculation and opinion. In your own words, how chickish.
Come on dippshitt, tell me your credentials? What do you do for a living? Are you that CHICKENSHITT? The last question was rhetorical.
Because they knew the shooting public consumer was buying up all of the ammo. They didn't do anything differently than any other savvy consumer, considering the tenor of the country at the time in regards the 2A and it's accessories.
Again, feel free to continue with emotional based opinion vice facts, it's what chicks do best.
Pony up some experience based facts or Google it and pretend they come from your own knowledge base. Please tell us how much ammo DHS normally purchases.
I already answered, dipshitt. Please tell me your experience in Government contracting? DHS?
Hell, for that matter, what do you do for living?
You can get mad and stamp your wittle feet all you want to, but the fact is that I'm doing nothing other than parroting details you yourself have given over the years. You're the one feigning expertise here, not me. I'm serious when I say I'd welcome hard numbers.
Have you ever thought of trying to not be so hot-headed?
Your own posts on the subject are speculation and opinion. ============
Well, he was on the inside, Mark. Now, explain to me what facts you rely upon to form your concrete evidence.
Quote
I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly.
That's not inside info. How much ammo was he involved in purchasing and how much does DHS normally purchase. You're welcome to answer yourself. I've got other stuff to do.
The peak year for DHS ammo usage in the past three fiscal years was FY2010 with approx. 135 million rounds expended (109 for training and 25 for operations).
The 11/20/2012 DHS ammo inventory was approx. 264 million rounds. That's about two year's worth at the FY2010 usage rate - about what I would expect for inventory.
However, the contracts that DHS requested bids on are for a total of 1.6 billion rounds over five years. They're buying almost 12 years worth of ammo over the next 5 years - that's where the numbers get weird, and that's why people are asking questions about what they're planning to do with that ammo, particularly considering the current budget deficits we're running. Why are they proposing to purchase 2.5 times the amount of ammo they are going to need when the federal government is already spending 50% more than it receives in revenues (i.e., borrowing 1/3 of the money being spent)?
The contract can be for UP to that amount, that doesn't mean that it the amount they are purchasing.
Great, now compare how much funding the DoD gets versus how much DHS gets and then tell me where this Gestapo force is and show me the equal funding.
HAJ you are dense,the International Banking Cartel is funding all this,it's all there.
And EE says he specifically doesn't make assumptions.
The following is typical rhetoric from guys that hate the American way of life. You know, free markets, constitutionalism, national security and whatnot...
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards
You can talk all that class warfare and whatever else you want, but most truly rich people would think nothing of taking every dime you have and leaving you and your family penniless, starving and without any sort of healthcare. If you mistook what I was saying by thinking there is no money in it then...These guys were making money when oil was $30 a barrel. They'd rather just bleed you. The conditions are the same as they were before Katrina when gas was well under $1.50. You think they weren't making money then? I'm all for a free market being free but when there are monopolies in place, the market isn't free, it's fixed.
Your own posts on the subject are speculation and opinion. ============
Well, he was on the inside, Mark. Now, explain to me what facts you rely upon to form your concrete evidence.
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I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly.
That's not inside info. How much ammo was he involved in purchasing and how much does DHS normally purchase. You're welcome to answer yourself. I've got other stuff to do.
You are questioning government contracting, which you know not of.
You do understand that not directly involved doesn't mean I am you with NO knowledge of, right?
So bulk ammo purchases for DHS in the past are classified but the ones from 2011 aren't?
Yes, yes I've done things I can't talk about. I can tell you that one time in Junior High a couple of my friends ripped off some cigarettes in a Convenience Store. They weren't my friends after that. I didn't rat them out though and I won't tell you how many were in the two packs they ripped off. I have my standards and my confidences.
Mark, I'm not directly involved in the purchases of office supplies for my firm but I know what they are buying. You can try to have a pissing contest with Scott or provide the evidence you have in support of your position other than speculation. So far, you've been dodging it or simply hiding the fact you're basically speculating yourself.
So bulk ammo purchases for DHS in the past are classified but the ones from 2011 aren't?
Yes, yes I've done things I can't talk about. I can tell you that one time in Junior High a couple of my friends ripped off some cigarettes in a Convenience Store. They weren't my friends after that. I didn't rat them out though and I won't tell you how many were in the two packs they ripped off. I have my standards and my confidences.
There are many things in contracting that I did that I can't discuss. I don't care if you worked the glory hole at the 7-11.
Your own posts on the subject are speculation and opinion. ============
Well, he was on the inside, Mark. Now, explain to me what facts you rely upon to form your concrete evidence.
Quote
I've not been directly involved with ammo, only indirectly.
That's not inside info. How much ammo was he involved in purchasing and how much does DHS normally purchase. You're welcome to answer yourself. I've got other stuff to do.
You are questioning government contracting, which you know not of.
You do understand that not directly involved doesn't mean I am you with NO knowledge of, right?
What do you do for a living?
You're going round in circles. I'm questioning government contracting and said multiple times I'll welcome hard facts. There's no way you have some gag order on multiple purchases. I actually thought you knew something but am starting to think you don't.
As far as personal info, not all of us give it all out on the internet, you know. The Great Oz has confidentiality agreements that you gotta sign and stuff. I don't want to lose my job.
We know that DHS has purchased many times more ammo than they normally do. The question that we lack a concrete answer for is why. I speculate that it has everything to do with reducing the supply available to consumers and little if anything to do with DHS efforts to arm for a civilian insurrection or overt attacks on the citizenry. I hope I'm correct, the consequences of a civil war would be horrific beyond all imagination for all Americans.
If you ask them, the military will always tell you that they are running low. I can't think of a time where any of my units didn't beg for more ammo, as they were dumping it to ensure the funding remains.
I speculate that it has everything to do with reducing the supply available to consumers and little if anything to do with DHS efforts to arm for a civilian insurrection or overt attacks on the citizenry.
If you ask them, the military will always tell you that they are running low. I can't think of a time where any of my units didn't beg for more ammo, as they were dumping it to ensure the funding remains.
We know that DHS has purchased many times more ammo than they normally do.
NO. We don't know that. We know they put out a contract with options to buy up to that amount, the same type of contract as they have done in the past. We didn't know how much they actually bought, and this data seems to say they're buying no more than normal.
PS; The normal to me seems high, as does the inventory. That 1000 rounds per person is far more than the National Guard used to get to train with, and their "mission" is a bit more intense than an LEO.
If you ask them, the military will always tell you that they are running low. I can't think of a time where any of my units didn't beg for more ammo, as they were dumping it to ensure the funding remains.
Think thats what napolitono is doing? Dumping it?
Nah, it's all going to the units that requested it. What they do with it is another thing entirely.
The way it worked in the Army is that we'd have a budget of, say $10,000 for ammo. If we only used $6,000 of that ammo, then the next budget would reduce our allotment to $6,000 for ammo. Unit Commanders didn't want to short change any training so if at the end of the year we only used a portion of our ammo, the order would come to go out and just shoot it all up or dump it in the impact area so that we could continue to get that full $10,000 allotment.
This is one of the many things that I thought was wasteful in the military and work now to reign in.
It was somewhat in jest because I doubt that 5,000 rounds are fired by agents in the field in total every year considering how often they jail their own agents for defending themselves. But as to bean bags...
So now rounds have to be fired in the field to justify the amount of training and qualification ammunition is purchased?
You wanna talk Compean and Ramos? Start typing. I could use the [bleep] laugh.
Shame on any POS that posts Brian Terry's image in an effort to win an argument over ammunition acquisition. That's despicable.
You wanna discuss the details of his murder, feel free to type away on that one too.
The contract can be for UP to that amount, that doesn't mean that it the amount they are purchasing.
BINGO!!! We have a winner!
The terms of this contract ALSO allow state & local LE agencies to purchase under the terms of this contract. It is a way to hold manufacturers to a certain price for a fixed period of time.
One of the principals I represent is a supplier under this contract. DHS has NOT, I repeat NOT bought billions of rounds of ammo, nor ORDERED billions of rounds of ammo.
Wasn't to you, just in general, as no one seems to grasp that concept. I've tried in the past but people want to believe their [bleep] up, [bleep] conspiracies.
The contract can be for UP to that amount, that doesn't mean that it the amount they are purchasing.
BINGO!!! We have a winner!
The terms of this contract ALSO allow state & local LE agencies to purchase under the terms of this contract. It is a way to hold manufacturers to a certain price for a fixed period of time.
One of the principals I represent is a supplier under this contract. DHS has NOT, I repeat NOT bought billions of rounds of ammo, nor ORDERED billions of rounds of ammo.
Ed
I've been trying for months, but Lee, Ethanbuttphuck, et al want to believe what they want to believe.
They are as dangerous to our way of life as the democrats they hate.
The contract can be for UP to that amount, that doesn't mean that it the amount they are purchasing.
BINGO!!! We have a winner!
The terms of this contract ALSO allow state & local LE agencies to purchase under the terms of this contract. It is a way to hold manufacturers to a certain price for a fixed period of time.
One of the principals I represent is a supplier under this contract. DHS has NOT, I repeat NOT bought billions of rounds of ammo, nor ORDERED billions of rounds of ammo.
Ed
And the truth shall set you free!!!!
This is how contracting works! You budget high so that no breech of contract can occur if unforeseen incidents arise and you need to do more.
It has zero baring on what is actually used, acquired, purchased, or ordered.
People not familiar with contracting don't seem to get this, and prefer their grassy knolls...
Wasn't to you, just in general, as no one seems to grasp that concept. I've tried in the past but people want to believe their [bleep] up, [bleep] conspiracies.
Real life must really suck for them...
Speaking of real life, what is going to be this weeks porch picture from the Steelhead household?
They are as dangerous to our way of life as the democrats they hate.
Oh yeah! You should read the ones that support the idea of letting anyone that acquired a U.S. citizenship storm the Capital with guns a blazing Kyrzakistan style on a whim. EathanEdwards is one of them.
You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? These guys have made me insane. I'm convinced of it.
Seems like most of this thread is based on the presumption that the govt provided numbers are trustworthy, but why would they be? In the arena of spiritual warfare there are two sides, truth and lies. Like it or not Jesus and (hopefully) Christians represent truth, and everything else comes from the father of lies, Satan himself. I do not trust the govt. All the lies and deception in the world originate with Satan, and are concealed or are "packaged" any old way you like, take your choice of thousands of venues to push the false agenda. We have an unGodly govt, therefore we have untruthful leaders and actions. Please pass the tinfoil and KMA.
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
Have you considered that the owner of the manufacturing facilities has some influential cronies that are purchasing with the public dollar so that the owner can continue to make a profit now that hostilities are on the wane.
The other option is that your Government is absolutely terrified about something that you are not privy to...which is plausible given that most sides of politics are supporting the changes, either by direct action or inaction.
From here it is an interesting development that is going to affect our lot as well.
Jesus H. KeRist! 14 pages of a thread only to find out the terms of an ammo purchase contract do not necessarily equate to actual ammo purchases. But don't feel bad, apparently even some or our congressmen have spiffy tinfoil hats too!
Briefly, they claim they have 263 million rounds in inventory, they use 88 million rounds a year for training, and buy 105'ish million a year.
Interesting numbers... but nowhere near 1.6 billion rounds.
Though the numbers do seem to indicate they are building up their inventory by 18 million rounds a year? And why do they need 3 years worth of ammo stored in inventory?
That's a flat ass lie they wouldn't use that many rounds if they were in the middle of a civil war.
Jesus H. KeRist! 14 pages of a thread only to find out the terms of an ammo purchase contract do not necessarily equate to actual ammo purchases. But don't feel bad, apparently even some or our congressmen have spiffy tinfoil hats too!
These fora only give lip service to actual political actions...it is all entertainment and filling in time between sleeping.
I don't talk with chickenshitt that hide behind their computer, but I'm sure we know where you are.
lol Who is "we" and what do you mean by that? Sounds pretty threatening. In my experience pusssies threaten when they get found out.
So you signed confidentiality agreements that said you couldn't speak of the procurements you were involved in when you were in the Coast Guard. But yet you just related several things you claim to be involved in procuring, including weapons. I'd think you could acknowledge involvement in ammo procurement if you could acknowledge involvement in weapons procurement, just so we all know you are expert in this and can take your assurances that these purchases are routine, seriously. You've made the assertions over and over again, so back them up.
As an aside, I've never spoken of any expert or inside knowledge on this subject and as such even your attempts to call me out on it ring hollow. If you can find anywhere that I've even implied I had more knowledge than the average guy, then please do. Furthermore, I wasn't the one who broke this story on the Campfire nor have I necessarily fervently spoke of any belief in a conspiracy on the ammo thing. However, the more the government tries to stonewall and then tell some story that doesn't ring true, the more I tend to think something is amiss.
It is a way to hold manufacturers to a certain price for a fixed period of time.
Thats right good planning. I think we can all agree, obama is all about saving money.
You can be as sarcastic as you want. The GSA Schedules were created just for that purpose. GSA is now a bloated monster that ADDS costs to materials purchased under their contracts, thus driving companies away and seeking other avenues to do business with state, local, and federal government.
DHS saw the huge burden imposed by the GSA requirements and, over three years ago, went looking for an alternative. What they came up with mirrored the GSA "best prices" requirements without the bloated fees.
Principals that wanted to do business with DHS began negotiations with them. One of the requirements was that state & local agencies be allowed to purchase under these contracts (there are more than one, covering different classes of materials) and they could do so without violating the current GSA rules & regs (turf war stuff between GSA and DHS).
So, the requirements were let, vendors responded and were vetted for compliance and capability, and contracts were then signed.
For those folks who have never done even local government purchasing, the nightmare that is fed purchasing has to be seen to be believed. It is so full of rules and regs whose only purpose is to get the BEST price for the government that it will make your head spin.
It is like mating elephants; It is done on a high level, it is done with a great deal of bellowing and screaming, and it takes years for the final product to appear.
So bulk ammo purchases for DHS in the past are classified but the ones from 2011 aren't?
Yes, yes I've done things I can't talk about. I can tell you that one time in Junior High a couple of my friends ripped off some cigarettes in a Convenience Store. They weren't my friends after that. I didn't rat them out though and I won't tell you how many were in the two packs they ripped off. I have my standards and my confidences.
There are many things in contracting that I did that I can't discuss. I don't care if you worked the glory hole at the 7-11.
What do you do for a living?
I can understand you not wanting to discuss blowing guys off at a Glory Hole. Good luck with that...I guess.
Mark, I'm not directly involved in the purchases of office supplies for my firm but I know what they are buying. You can try to have a pissing contest with Scott or provide the evidence you have in support of your position other than speculation. So far, you've been dodging it or simply hiding the fact you're basically speculating yourself.
Bob, how is a pissing contest with Scott any of your concern? It was only a matter of time before he was shown to know nothing about what he keeps yammering about on here and making fun of others who believe differently than he does.
Please cite where I ever intimated I had insider knowledge of DHS ammo purchases. I have asked multiple times on this very thread for normal purchase numbers. If these are normal purchases, I agree that this is not an area where efforts should be expended. I've never seen anybody show where this level of ammo procurement is normal. This negates any arguments about where it is stored, how many agencies are under the aegis of, etc. Very simple. Post the numbers if you have them. I don't. S Head doesn't, or he would have already posted them to bolster his super secret expert status.
Lets look at the bright side of this. In a few years all this ammo with have past it's experation dates and they'll give it to CMP to sell. Should be some pretty good deals coming down the pike if we just wait.
Lets look at the bright side of this. In a few years all this ammo with have past it's experation dates and they'll give it to CMP to sell. Should be some pretty good deals coming down the pike if we just wait.
People have no idea of how things work, none at all.
Okay here's how this works. The Wizard is calling and says I have to go intercept the truck at Walmart and get all the ammo off of it before the peons spot it and have my men store it in the super secret ammo bunkers deep in the heart of the Emerald City. Oz even outranks the Governor, so I gotta go. I'll be sure and check back in with you though to see how you're doing on the ammo procurement thing and to see if you've made any more threats.
People have no idea of how things work, none at all.
Only government does.
I can say I've seen people making changes and trying to make changes for the better, but it's a long road. Believe it or not there are many out there that feel fiscal responsibility to the tax payers, since they too are tax payers.
People have no idea of how things work, none at all.
Only government does.
I can say I've seen people making changes and trying to make changes for the better, but it's a long road. Believe it or not there are many out there that feel fiscal responsibility to the tax payers, since they too are tax payers.
This has been my experience too. Most of the time, people want to do right.
Read the whole thread, lot of speculation out there and assumption. Lotta mano mano bs which allways confuses the unknown facts. The DHS is out there, they hide in plain sight in the open, the public just doesn't know who or where they are. They do have facilities barely labeled in plain sight. A friend of mine was told of such a facility right here where I live in RC SD. I had not heard of it, he told me the address and I did a drive by to check what I thought was bs out. DHS shield barely noticeable in the day , heaviest chainlink fence I've ever seen 4 strands concertina and barbed wire around the top. Remote controled gates, windows all covered over from the inside security electronics on the inside of the fences and remote controled motion cameras all over the outer walls of the building, nothing moves outside the bldg in that compound. Odd times of day vehicles emerge from the bldg and leave, new ones arrived they are all parked inside the bldg, no one outside on smoke breaks either.Wondered who the owner of the property is googled the Rapid City map and zoned in on it. Owner was an outfit from Colo. called SBC Archway a real estate leasor and holding company ? Searched them seems like they provide a lot of facilities all over the country to DHS , ICE etc. Recently involved in a 14 million dollar lawsuit with the State of Montana a case heard in Billings recently. Like I said they hide in plain sight, do you know what you are looking at? Not sure I do either at times but the security there made Ellsworth AFB and SDNG camp look like the mall x-mas time. Yeah I think the US gov't could and would shutdown public utilies to enforce compliance if they decide to. No tinfoil hats here just no trust of anything a politician says anymore. Magnum Man
Hell, I know I don't know how things work. I do know that I've never talked with any local, state or military person who was given 100 rounds a month to practice with - but maybe I haven't talked to the right ones. I do know that comparing most LEO's shooting practices to some of the folks here is ridiculous - I watch some of the local cops practicing for their annual qualifications (with ammo they bought on their dime) at our range and I feel good about my skills - and I truly suck with a handgun. Most cops aren't gun guys..
I posted this thread to STOP the rumors about ammo hoarding by DHS and the theories that they were buying ammo for a civil war. I've been saying since the start that was ridiculous - and the cause of our current ammo shortage is 99% the civilian public who is panicking.
But after seeing the numbers, I question what they have as being excessive - from an efficiency point of view, not from any conspiracy theory. The purpose of 4 to 5 year contracts is to lock in prices and supply lines, there's nothing to be gained by keeping 5,000 rounds on hand for each agent you have fielded.
Some congressmen were asking about them also and were not happy at being given the run around. This was brought up on the fire a couple of weeks ago and the congressmen were shown on video.
Some congressmen were asking about them also and were not happy at being given the run around. This was brought up on the fire a couple of weeks ago and the congressmen were shown on video.
Compelling. They were likely contacted by Lee and KansasBB, not to mention a few others on the 'Fire. Much better to follow every red herring then deal with actual issues. I'm guessing many here haven't the first [bleep] clue how to look up a government contract.
You really think she has any clue what's going on in the trenches of the organizations that make up DHS?
That's funny!
So dhs isn't procuring this ammo? or she doesn't care what they order? Maybe someone at the bottom should tell her whats going on?
Are you Ethan's neighbor?
Just because the conspiracy theories are wrong, don't think Napolitano knows that the heck is going on. Either she's running a totally out of control organization, or she's an evil mastermind. (I go for incompetent and ignorant manager, myself)
On Wednesday, White House spokesman Jay Carney said ICE never told Obama or Homeland Secretary Janet Napolitano about the plan and that neither the president nor Napolitano played a role in developing it.
Tack this onto the border patrol agents voting no confidence in their management for years, ICE agents suing because they aren't allowed to do their jobs as required by law, and the top Homeland Security administration being run like a "frat-house" by some interesting women types.
[The vehicle] is used in the execution of high-risk warrants � including drug trafficking, smuggling, and contraband,"
Thats crazy. I wonder why they just don't close the border?
Because the next High Risk is going to be the general public when we finally break and get tiered of the feds crap and they will need everything that they have at that point.
Piss off a repub. and get ready for the chewing out. Piss of a Dem. and get ready for the riot. DHS knows what may happen , they are just getting ready for it.
[The vehicle] is used in the execution of high-risk warrants � including drug trafficking, smuggling, and contraband,"
Thats crazy. I wonder why they just don't close the border?
Because the next High Risk is going to be the general public when we finally break and get tiered of the feds crap and they will need everything that they have at that point.
Piss off a repub. and get ready for the chewing out. Piss of a Dem. and get ready for the riot. DHS knows what may happen , they are just getting ready for it.
Can somebody tell me what entity of DHS is going to turn their weapons on American citizens?
Can somebody tell me what entity of DHS is going to turn their weapons on American citizens?
no one at the top knows, you'll have to contact someone at the bottom.
Guessing there is a reason you have folks like the Commandant of the US Coast Guard to run the US Coast Guard and report back the high level stuff to DHS.
Guessing there is a reason you have folks like the Commandant of the US Coast Guard to run the US Coast Guard and report back the high level stuff to DHS.
I wonder if he or she, mentioned the southern border?
Guessing there is a reason you have folks like the Commandant of the US Coast Guard to run the US Coast Guard and report back the high level stuff to DHS.
I wonder if he or she, mentioned the southern border?
I believe that would be delegated to the Chief of the Border Patrol.
Bob, how is a pissing contest with Scott any of your concern? =============
Because you kept diverting yourself from direct questions from me which you have yet to answer. You know,a few pages back when it was you, me, Haj and Scott going back and forth.
Can you please now answer the question based upon what you know rather than from speculation?
DHS is telling the truth. The ammo shortage is a lie made up by gun show hosts.
DHS has the border the most secure it has been in the history of freakin history, except for the southernmost 75 miles of Arizona and the border is exceptionally safe, if you are a Zetia wheel.
I do not trust that they (government) have the best idea of what the CITIZENS of this once great country want them to do. They do what they want and what the few want not the masses.
For Example And I only need one bummercare over 75% of the people (CITIZENS) did not want it and Paloozy I quote You need to vote for it to see what is in it. and all of the rest of the jack Arsses agreed and voted it in and when they could do something to over turn it they did nothing and the so called Supreme Court CONSERVITIVE oberts changed the bill to pass the smell test to make it constitutional. So that we can NEVER get ride of it. Need I say more on why I do not trust them
I do not trust that they (government) have the best idea of what the CITIZENS of this ounce great country want them to do they do what they want and what the few want not the masses.
For Example And I only need one bummercare over 75% of the people (CITIZENS) did not want it and Paloozy I quote You need to vote for it to see what is in it. and all of the rest of the jack Arsses agreed and voted it in and when they could do something to over turn it they did nothing and the so called Supreme Court CONSERVITIVE oberts changed the bill to pass the smell test to make it constitutional. So that we can NEVER get ride of it. Need I say more on why I do not trust them
That's wonderful. But I don't see what that has to do with the conspiracy that agencies within DHS are prepared to use lethal force on the populous of the United States.
I do not trust that they (government) have the best idea of what the CITIZENS of this ounce great country want them to do they do what they want and what the few want not the masses.
For Example And I only need one bummercare over 75% of the people (CITIZENS) did not want it and Paloozy I quote You need to vote for it to see what is in it. and all of the rest of the jack Arsses agreed and voted it in and when they could do something to over turn it they did nothing and the so called Supreme Court CONSERVITIVE oberts changed the bill to pass the smell test to make it constitutional. So that we can NEVER get ride of it. Need I say more on why I do not trust them
I can shoot that one right in the ass. More people voted for Obama than not. Seems it is what the people want.
What the heck does screwball Connecticut politics have to do with DHS ammunition purchases or ours on a national level?
Point is that DHS is buying in excess of their needs. The shoot 80 million per year and are ordering 105 million per year. I don't think they should be ordering extra.
I can think of one sheriff's dept and a police department who are/have been ordering extra, because the last time this paranoia happened they about ran out....
I do not trust that they (government) have the best idea of what the CITIZENS of this ounce great country want them to do they do what they want and what the few want not the masses.
For Example And I only need one bummercare over 75% of the people (CITIZENS) did not want it and Paloozy I quote You need to vote for it to see what is in it. and all of the rest of the jack Arsses agreed and voted it in and when they could do something to over turn it they did nothing and the so called Supreme Court CONSERVITIVE oberts changed the bill to pass the smell test to make it constitutional. So that we can NEVER get ride of it. Need I say more on why I do not trust them
I can shoot that one right in the ass. More people voted for Obama than not. Seems it is what the people want.
That is my conspiracy theory I do not be leave that it was an honest count of the Legal voters there are to many questions about the whole thing and no one is asking about it.
And yes I do already know that I am a LOON no one has to tell me.
I can think of one sheriff's dept and a police department who are/have been ordering extra, because the last time this paranoia happened they about ran out....
They are "little people" who should depend upon FedGov.
You mean with an increase in republican absentee ballots of 50% and a decrease in Dimocrap absentee ballots of 30% you don't think the computers did a good job?
That is my conspiracy theory I do not be leave that it was an honest count of the Legal voters there are to many questions about the whole thing and no one is asking about it.
And yes I do already know that I am a LOON no one has to tell me.
That's the same thing the libs cried when Bush won round two.
[quote=eyeball]You mean with an increase in republican absentee ballots of 50% and a decrease in Dimocrap absentee ballots of 30% you don't think the computers did a good job? [/quote
I did say that I was a LOON. I am like a democrat in that way. You can tell me the facts and I will still feel the way I do. Just like my brother who got into an argument with my dad on Easter. Because my brother i a jack Arss Dem. and was telling my dad that all of the problems in the country right now are because of the Repubs. and that the Dems. are trying to save all of our sorry arsses , my dad disagreed and it almost started WW3 . I am glad I was not there due to the fact that I have been brain washed the other way With one exception. I do no like ether party. I just do not see that they have the best interests for our country.
Man, I can't believe 25 pages. Can't you guys see that we're on the same side? Is it so hard to imagine a tyranical govt with history replete with examples? Why is the US of A immune, because of our Constitution and Bill of Rights? We have a leader class "above" us. When was the last time any of you saw a representative in the grocery store? Or their kid at school? They live detached from and what they feel is above us and they have made it clear THEY are public enemy #1, not each of us. Stop bickering and band together or they will defeat us while we squabble amongst ourselves. Be great men and rise above this.
Man, I can't believe 25 pages. Can't you guys see that we're on the same side? Is it so hard to imagine a tyranical govt with history replete with examples? Why is the US of A immune, because of our Constitution and Bill of Rights? We have a leader class "above" us. When was the last time any of you saw a representative in the grocery store? Or their kid at school? They live detached from and what they feel is above us and they have made it clear THEY are public enemy #1, not each of us. Stop bickering and band together or they will defeat us while we squabble amongst ourselves. Be great men and rise above this.
At the present we are defeated and that is just the way they want it the more we squabble the freer they are to destroy the rest of us and they are winning
It is a way to hold manufacturers to a certain price for a fixed period of time.
Thats right good planning. I think we can all agree, obama is all about saving money.
... Principals that wanted to do business with DHS began negotiations with them. One of the requirements was that state & local agencies be allowed to purchase under these contracts (there are more than one, covering different classes of materials) and they could do so without violating the current GSA rules & regs (turf war stuff between GSA and DHS).
...
Well, letting state and local agencies piggyback on the contract explains the quantity. I understand building in some buffer so that if purchasing needs increased in the next few years, DHS could purchase more than they are purchasing now without having to buy on the spot market (particularly considering how bad that might be if another Dem is elected in 3.5 years), but 2.5 times (rather than say 1.5 times) what they are using now would be ridiculous given current budget issues/the deficit without the clause that state/local agencies have the option to buy under the contract. It would be difficult for manufacturers to accurately bid on a contract that was asking for a price on a quantity that was 2.5x what would reasonably be expected to be purchased. That's a sizeable difference, but with state/local purchases included, the actual purchase quantity should be considerably closer to the quantity specified for the bids.
I'm talking 1.6 billion rounds and 2700 armored personnel carriers in the good old USA. I'm talking of what a few congressmen are concerned about and not the crap you swallow from natty politano, a lesbo ball licker of a muzzy loving traitor who serves as the US Atty. General who is proven to have lied when he said he had never heard about F&F.
Terrible thread, yet I've read every single [bleep] post...
Lot more fun when EE was here, expounding as only he can about nothing. Damn, I wish he would hurry back. The Wizard must be keeping him late (I wonder if his union pays overtime?)
It was somewhat in jest because I doubt that 5,000 rounds are fired by agents in the field in total every year considering how often they jail their own agents for defending themselves. But as to bean bags...
Why don't you show an ounce of reverence and take this [bleep] picture down along with your stupid ass comment regarding bean bags?
I'm talking 1.6 billion rounds and 2700 armored personnel carriers in the good old USA. I'm talking of what a few congressmen are concerned about and not the crap you swallow from natty politano.
What crap? They haven't purchase 1.6 billion rounds, show me where they have.
They haven't purchased 2700 armored vehicles, show me where they have.
So you don't think the men and women in the US Coast Guard should have vessels that protect them from incoming missile attacks? They shouldn't have weaponry that allows them to fight the enemy?
Please, show me some FACTS, don't regurgitate the same old chicken little [bleep].
Terrible thread, yet I've read every single [bleep] post...
Lot more fun when EE was here, expounding as only he can about nothing. Damn, I wish he would hurry back. The Wizard must be keeping him late (I wonder if his union pays overtime?)
He is likely one of the more inconsequential folks on the 'Fire, and that is saying a bunch.
I'm talking 1.6 billion rounds and 2700 armored personnel carriers in the good old USA. I'm talking of what a few congressmen are concerned about and not the crap you swallow from natty politano.
What crap? They haven't purchase 1.6 billion rounds, show me where they have.
They haven't purchased 2700 armored vehicles, show me where they have.
So you don't think the men and women in the US Coast Guard should have vessels that protect them from incoming missile attacks? They shouldn't have weaponry that allows them to fight the enemy?
Please, show me some FACTS, don't regurgitate the same old chicken little [bleep].
It was somewhat in jest because I doubt that 5,000 rounds are fired by agents in the field in total every year considering how often they jail their own agents for defending themselves. But as to bean bags...
Why don't you show an ounce of reverence and take this [bleep] picture down along with your stupid ass comment regarding bean bags?
I'm talking 1.6 billion rounds and 2700 armored personnel carriers in the good old USA. I'm talking of what a few congressmen are concerned about and not the crap you swallow from natty politano.
What crap? They haven't purchase 1.6 billion rounds, show me where they have.
They haven't purchased 2700 armored vehicles, show me where they have.
So you don't think the men and women in the US Coast Guard should have vessels that protect them from incoming missile attacks? They shouldn't have weaponry that allows them to fight the enemy?
Please, show me some FACTS, don't regurgitate the same old chicken little [bleep].
show me where they didn't.
Tough to argue with that. It has been shown, that you don't wish to read and believe is your problem.
I will await congressman Gowdy's report on that, if you don't mind (or if you do). Now you go back to being concerned the CG isn't worried about its cache of ammo and quit worrying about the cache of the people of the USA.
Sweet, we now have Ethan The Oz, that doesn't know the first [bleep] thing about anything and eyeball with his equally compelling list of accolades whilst working in government contracting and with DHS.
Rep. Steve King was interviewed last week about this issue; he inquired to DHS (because of the stories his constituents were hearing) and basically stated that with the agencies involved, the purchases were certainly higher, but nothing he considered alarming or not within the possible consumption for the departments involved. But he was keeping an eye on it. He's generally not prone to lies and B.S..
If Scott told me the CG was planning a home invasions on a large scale in Boston, I would probably believe him...but he ain't.....
Rep. Steve King was interviewed last week about this issue; he inquired to DHS (because of the stories his constituents were hearing) and basically stated that with the agencies involved, the purchases were certainly higher, but nothing he considered alarming or not within the possible consumption for the departments involved. But he was keeping an eye on it. He's generally not prone to lies and B.S..
If Scott told me the CG was planning a home invasions on a large scale in Boston, I would probably believe him...but he ain't.....
People just don't seem to appreciate the story about the boy that cried wolf. Best to save your best WOLF yell for when it's really needed.
Of course most anything can be found out with a little research but people prefer to cry wolf and let someone else tell them 'It's ok'
Even then, they will not believe it, so I don't know what the value of crying wolf is for them. I guess if you are the sort that has never had a voice on anything in your life, crying wolf makes one feel 'important'
I don't know, people [bleep] baffle me.
I do know who I listen to on certain subjects and listen well I do.
I'm sure that as a big wheel in the CG he rubbed shoulders with Napolitano on a daily basis and is privy to the inside scoop, but I also know what dogs do to wheels.
Subsequently, when 12 conservative congressmen have their hackles up over being fed BS I consider they may have a clue.
I stated before in a thread a coule weeks ago. Our dept budgets about 55,000 rounds That's for 37 full and part time officers. We qualify 3 times a year plus additional training. Such as night fire excersizes and other tactical training. That includes. Shotgun. Rifle and handgun training
I stated before in a thread a coule weeks ago. Our dept budgets about 55,000 rounds That's for 37 full and part time officers. We qualify 3 times a year plus additional training. Such as night fire excersizes and other tactical training. That includes. Shotgun. Rifle and handgun training
Is that what you normally require, or did Nappy tell you to do a mil this year?
I'm back from cleaning out another Walmart for the Wiz. We're putting out disinformation and laying it on the Coast Guard and ex-Wobbly geniuses who control all the flow of ammo for DHS.
What were we talking about?
[bleep], if the Wiz keeps paying me this good I may be able to retire to Tennessee and hunt deers the size of dogs while fighting with people who basically want the same things I do, on the internet.
Please cite again your level of expertise on this along with citations on normal annual ammunition purchases for DHS. No bs this time. Oh I forgot, your classification was Above Top Secret and if you tell it on here all Campfire denizens will have to be dispatched by some team of Ninjas who are currently ensconced in the grown over cornfield behind your house.
It was somewhat in jest because I doubt that 5,000 rounds are fired by agents in the field in total every year considering how often they jail their own agents for defending themselves. But as to bean bags...
Why don't you show an ounce of reverence and take this [bleep] picture down along with your stupid ass comment regarding bean bags?
Travis
I have shown NOTHING but reverence for Brian Terry, and I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews. He was murdered by firearms SOLD BY THIS GOV'T TO THE CARTELS! Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them. Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders. Terry is among those who have volunteered to protect our borders and confront an armed invader inside of our borders, and they suffer for it.
Bob, how is a pissing contest with Scott any of your concern? =============
Because you kept diverting yourself from direct questions from me which you have yet to answer. You know,a few pages back when it was you, me, Haj and Scott going back and forth.
Can you please now answer the question based upon what you know rather than from speculation?
If all that has been said about the gov't buying up all that ammo is untrue, the gov't should be in a 24 hr pants pissing mode just wondering where the first conflagration is going to take place and by who.
Being taught well by mother, I believe nothing I hear and only half of what I see.
[quote=gitem_12]I stated before in a thread a coule weeks ago. Our dept budgets about 55,000 rounds That's for 37 full and part time officers. We qualify 3 times a year plus additional training. Such as night fire excersizes and other tactical training. That includes. Shotgun. Rifle and handgun training
Is that what you normally require, or did Nappy tell you to do a mil this year? :
Yea that's about what we normally get
It breaks down to about 1500 rounds per person. But remember not all of our part timers qualify with us most work full time with other depts. I guess my point was that while numbers seem huge if you break it down to individuals it really isn't that out of whack. How many rounds do you shoot a given year? Those rounds we don't shoot in official training are given to officers. Personally I change magazines every 3 months to let the springs reset. So I also change out my duty ammo at the same time.
I never once mentioned civil war.. only thing I questioned was the wisdom of buying and paying for storing and securing 3 years worth of ammunition as opposed to keeping far lower reserves. CBP is keeping an inventory of almost 5,000 rounds per border patrol agent - that strikes me as wasteful.
It would be interesting to note whether this follows a pattern from earlier years - i.e., fifteen years ago or so, did they order substantial numbers of ammo also? Is there a way to compare (I have no idea where to start looking)?
Originally Posted by RISJR
Why can't the government be a consumer as consistent as the public consumer, given the circumstances of what happened after Newtown?
Because it's the gov't - they NEVER do anything efficiently or economically...
Quote
Is anyone really trying to persuade me that our government is doing so to prepare for civil war?
Are you as certain as the sun rising in the east that it's not?
I have shown NOTHING but reverence for Brian Terry, and I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews. He was murdered by firearms SOLD BY THIS GOV'T TO THE CARTELS! Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them. Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders. Terry is among those who have volunteered to protect our borders and confront an armed invader inside of our borders, and they suffer for it.
So, GFY.
You don't have the first [bleep] clue what you're talking about.
And you display ZERO reverence for that man. ZERO.
I never once mentioned civil war.. only thing I questioned was the wisdom of buying and paying for storing and securing 3 years worth of ammunition as opposed to keeping far lower reserves. CBP is keeping an inventory of almost 5,000 rounds per border patrol agent - that strikes me as wasteful.
It would be interesting to note whether this follows a pattern from earlier years - i.e., fifteen years ago or so, did they order substantial numbers of ammo also? Is there a way to compare (I have no idea where to start looking)?
Originally Posted by RISJR
Why can't the government be a consumer as consistent as the public consumer, given the circumstances of what happened after Newtown?
Because it's the gov't - they NEVER do anything efficiently or economically...
Quote
Is anyone really trying to persuade me that our government is doing so to prepare for civil war?
Are you as certain as the sun rising in the east that it's not?
Fifteen years ago the department was nowhere near the same size. Bush created it and the hiring of personnel was unprecedented.
The ratio of ammo to uniformed personnel was far, far greater fifteen years ago. The numbers you are seeing today are bare bones.
The government is not known for its efficiency. However, ammo shortages that were seen in 2008 were also unprecedented. Agencies and departments have simply adjusted. Same as the private consumer.
Again, the only people that are stunned by these numbers are people that have never worked a range.
My reach into the tinfoil aspect is that the "transparency" of the administration promotes suspicion and its working.
The more they can cause unrest and dissension in conservative and libertarians, the better it is for the administration and progressive agendas.
All it takes is people to snap enough, and the honey boo boo types will gladly acquiesce rights they don't exercise anyway.
As far as the bullets go - it doesn't matter how many the stormtroopers have. I'd be outnumbered regardless. If it even came to that. I'm just a surveyor.
Fifteen years ago the department was nowhere near the same size. Bush created it and the hiring of personnel was unprecedented.
The ratio of ammo to uniformed personnel was far, far greater fifteen years ago. The numbers you are seeing today are bare bones.
Makes sense.. Good points..
Originally Posted by RWD
As far as the bullets go - it doesn't matter how many the stormtroopers have. I'd be outnumbered regardless. If it even came to that. I'm just a surveyor.
True dat.. Yeah, we'd all be out numbered - but they're gonna pay one helluva price...
I have shown NOTHING but reverence for Brian Terry, and I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews. He was murdered by firearms SOLD BY THIS GOV'T TO THE CARTELS! Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them. Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders. Terry is among those who have volunteered to protect our borders and confront an armed invader inside of our borders, and they suffer for it.
So, GFY.
You don't have the first [bleep] clue what you're talking about.
And you display ZERO reverence for that man. ZERO.
So, SMD.
That's simply not true. Calhoun has neither said nor done anything that is disparaging of Brian Terry or his memory. There are plenty of points to argue here without claiming that.
Fifteen years ago the department was nowhere near the same size. Bush created it and the hiring of personnel was unprecedented.
The ratio of ammo to uniformed personnel was far, far greater fifteen years ago. The numbers you are seeing today are bare bones.
Makes sense.. Good points..
Originally Posted by RWD
As far as the bullets go - it doesn't matter how many the stormtroopers have. I'd be outnumbered regardless. If it even came to that. I'm just a surveyor.
True dat.. Yeah, we'd all be out numbered - but they're gonna pay one helluva price...
It does make sense but the problem is the government refusing to answer any questions on something that shouldn't be highly classified and then giving nonsensical answers when nearly forced. I paid little attention to it at first, but the longer it has went on the more it has snowballed. Furthermore the ammo shortage is unprecedented. You and I have both weathered multiple ammo shortages in the past, but nothing like this with not even a .22 at Walmart to be bought. I was in my local one last night and yet again, not even a single CB cap on the shelves. Awesomely strange. Joe Citizen runs out of money sooner or later, but our government doesn't.
My reach into the tinfoil aspect is that the "transparency" of the administration promotes suspicion and its working.
The more they can cause unrest and dissension in conservative and libertarians, the better it is for the administration and progressive agendas.
All it takes is people to snap enough, and the honey boo boo types will gladly acquiesce rights they don't exercise anyway.
As far as the bullets go - it doesn't matter how many the stormtroopers have. I'd be outnumbered regardless. If it even came to that. I'm just a surveyor.
MILITARY TIMES TELLS US DHS AMMO PURCHASES NOT WORRYING
25th March 2013
Homeland Security�s Ammunition Purchases Should Not Worry You
Talk of the Department of Homeland Security�s recent ammunition solicitations has gone from the fringes of the internet to the mainstream in websites like Forbes. I was disappointed by the Forbes article � rather than talk cold hard facts, it was rife with ill-informed speculation.
Government and military procurement is a very complex topic; so complex, in fact that it�s sometimes hard to discern best value practices from actual waste, fraud, and abuse. However, there are practically no examples of nefarious acquisitions intended to be used for the subjugation of the American populace. These ammunition contracts and solicitations are no exception.
Before we begin, it�s important to understand that an RFQ (request for quote) or solicitation is not a purchase. When Infowars says something like �the Department of Homeland Security is planning to buy a further 750 million rounds of ammo in addition to the 450 million rounds of hollow point bullets already purchased earlier this year,� or �Following controversy over its purchase of around 1.2 billion bullets in the last six months alone, the Department of Homeland Security has put out a new solicitation for over 200 million more rounds of ammunition,� the reader is led to assume, naturally, that DHS has actually purchased that amount of ammunition. That is simply not the case. A solicitation is the equivalent of a want-to-buy ad on Craigslist, writ large. It�s not an actual purchase.
A CBP agent with M14 rifle and HK P2000 pistol, both of which require ammunition to function properly.
So if DHS hasn�t actually bought 1.2 or 1.6 billion rounds in one year, then what have they bought, and what do they plan to buy? Well, a year ago they awarded an IDIQ contract for up to 450 million rounds of .40 S&W ammunition over the next 5 years. They plan to buy, over the next 5 years, 63 million rounds of a wide variety of ammunition ranging from 12 gauge birdshot to .38 special wadcutter to .30-06 FMJ ammo; there are even line items for .308 blanks.
An IDIQ, or indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contract, means that DHS didn�t simply buy 450 million rounds of ammunition at one time. The contract is spread out over a 5 year period, and it�s an upper limit, meaning up-to-90 million rounds of .40 S&W each year from that up-to-450 million round award. DHS could, if they wished, buy 73 million rounds the first year, 84 million the second, and so on. It depends on their needs at the time.
There is, as mentioned above, an Infowars article which refers to a �750 million round purchase,� but the PDF linked in said article is a solicitation which only contains line items which add up to 63,256,000 rounds. Confused? Here�s what a DHS spokesperson had to say about that:
�One solicitation under Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) has a contract ceiling of UP TO 750 million rounds of training ammunition, a maximum quantity allowing FLETC flexibility over the next 5 years for training of over 90 federal agencies. A separate 5-year department-wide contract allows the purchase of UP TO 450 million rounds of duty ammunition for our law enforcement officers and agents. This contract is intended to be used by all DHS components, except the U.S. Coast Guard, who uses U.S. Department of Defense ammo contracts. This contract is part of the Department�s strategic sourcing efforts to combine multiple previous contracts in order to leverage the purchasing power of the entire Department to efficiently procure equipment and supplies at significantly lower costs.�
Put simply, there�s no way that FLETC is going to actually buy 750 million rounds of ammunition. Given the historical use of ammo at FLETC of approximately 15 million rounds per year or less, it�s probably going to be pretty close to the line items in the PDF linked above which, again, total 63 million rounds over a 5 year time frame.
But isn�t a total which might approach 90 or 100 million rounds per year excessive?
DHS is a massive umbrella agency, with over 100,000 armed law enforcement personnel according to a DHS spokesperson. If we divide 90 million by 100,000, that means each agent gets 900 rounds per year to shoot. That isn�t a whole lot, considering that civilians going through handgun training courses sometimes shoot twice as many rounds � in a single weekend.
Furthermore, federal agents, including those under DHS, generally use the same ammunition for duty and practice. Currently, it�s a .40 S&W jacketed hollow point made by Federal, commonly known as the HST. Most of DHS�s evil, banned-for-war, elderly-and-baby-killing hollow points end up going through paper targets and into dirt berms. Each CBP (Customs and Border Protection) agent is currently given 250 rounds per quarter, or 1000 rounds per year. While things may differ from agency to agency, that lines up fairly nicely with the above math for the 450 million round contract.
In other words, that 5-year, up-to-450 million round ammo purchase is just what the agencies need to sustain proficiency for the next 5 years.
There are also references to a purchase of 200 million rounds of .223 Remington ammunition. However, the information at the link provided by the website shows a 5 year IDIQ contract for up to 165 million rounds, not 200 million. Yes, it�s a lot of ammo. But divided by the number of agents who have to practice with M4-platform weapons, over 5 years�well, we already covered that.
CBP vehicles near the border with Mexico in Organ Pipe National Monument, Arizona.
The Department of Homeland Security is not stockpiling ammunition for use against American citizens, nor are they buying excessive amounts of ammunition. If anything, I believe that 1000 rounds per year is not sufficient to maintain a high level of proficiency with a duty weapon.
In the end, there is absolutely no truth to the statements permeating the Internet about how �DHS bought 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition last year.� That number was reached through either basic math errors or willful ignorance on the part of those who make a living by crying wolf. That this rumor has traveled so far in conservative circles is especially ironic given the fact that a) buying in bulk is a fiscally smart decision, and b) hiring more DHS (CBP) agents to, among other things, better protect the border means buying more ammunition.
That's simply not true. Calhoun has neither said nor done anything that is disparaging of Brian Terry or his memory. There are plenty of points to argue here without claiming that.
True dat.. Yeah, we'd all be out numbered - but they're gonna pay one helluva price...
It does make sense but the problem is the government refusing to answer any questions on something that shouldn't be highly classified and then giving nonsensical answers when nearly forced. I paid little attention to it at first, but the longer it has went on the more it has snowballed. Furthermore the ammo shortage is unprecedented. You and I have both weathered multiple ammo shortages in the past, but nothing like this with not even a .22 at Walmart to be bought. I was in my local one last night and yet again, not even a single CB cap on the shelves. Awesomely strange. Joe Citizen runs out of money sooner or later, but our government doesn't. [/quote]
This shortage is the exact same as 2008. Lasting a bit longer, but no different than 2008, and 2008 changed the way people purchase.
That's simply not true. Calhoun has neither said nor done anything that is disparaging of Brian Terry or his memory. There are plenty of points to argue here without claiming that.
I'd appreciate you editing your post that misquotes me.
I disagree that the shortage is exactly the same. I can't gauge your level of experience here but I go to lots of gunshows and am guessing I have the opportunity to go to more of them than you do. The shortage of 2008 lasted longer than this one has so far, but wasn't nearly as wide nor as deep. .22's weren't practically non-existent for months. This is the worst shortage I've ever experienced. I'm not crying wolf either, just relating things.
It's odd too, as I'd think that people would be out of money as well as sated with guns and ammo after four years of Obama already. I have to admit this is somewhat surprising.
That's simply not true. Calhoun has neither said nor done anything that is disparaging of Brian Terry or his memory. There are plenty of points to argue here without claiming that.
That's simply not true. Calhoun has neither said nor done anything that is disparaging of Brian Terry or his memory. There are plenty of points to argue here without claiming that.
The [bleep] he hasn't.
Travis
How? I don't see any evidence of it.
Open your eyes and try again.
Travis
The only thing I've seen is Calhoun both keeping his memory and sacrifice for his country alive and also keeping the heat on to further investigate the details surrounding his death.
I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews.
Lie.
Quote
Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them.
Lie.
Quote
Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders.
Is he lying or is he just wrong due to ignorance of the facts?
One indicates a willingness to deceive and the other is just being ill informed and repeating what he understands to be true.
I don't know Calhoun well enough to determine that he is intentionally deceiving so, unless shown otherwise, I assume that he just doesn't have all the facts and is speaking from a position of ignorance.
Is he lying or is he just wrong due to ignorance of the facts?
One indicates a willingness to deceive and the other is just being ill informed and repeating what he understands to be true.
I don't know Calhoun well enough to determine that he is intentionally deceiving so, unless shown otherwise, I assume that he just doesn't have all the facts and is speaking from a position of ignorance.
I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews.
Lie.
Quote
Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them.
Lie.
Quote
Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders.
Lie.
Assuming your own assertions are correct, which I don't, the better term would be that Calhoun is incorrect due to either not knowing the facts or a difference of opinion as to the interpretation of them, as opposed to willfully misrepresenting. I don't believe Calhoun lied and I'm not sure your facts are correct let alone your interpretation of them. I'm not going to call you a liar though because I don't think you are one even if we differ in our opinions.
Assuming your own assertions are correct, which I don't, the better term would be that Calhoun is incorrect due to either not knowing the facts or a difference of opinion as to the interpretation of them, as opposed to willfully misrepresenting. I don't believe Calhoun lied and I'm not sure your facts are correct let alone your interpretation of them. I'm not going to call you a liar though because I don't think you are one even if we differ in our opinions.
I could give two [bleep] what you think.
Regurgitating a lie is still a lie.
And using a dead man's image, surrounded by complete bullschit, in order to make some sort of half-ass argument over ammo purchases, is pretty [bleep] pathetic.
I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews.
For the first time, federal officials also revealed that Terry and the elite squad of federal agents initially fired bean bags -- not bullets -- at the heavily armed drug cartel crew in the mountains south of Tucson in December 2010. During the exchange, Terry was shot and killed.
"When the suspected aliens did not drop their weapons, two Border Patrol agents deployed 'less than lethal' bean bags at the suspected aliens," FBI search warrant requests say, according to the Arizona Star newspaper, which first obtained the documents. The ammunition is designed to wound and take down targets not kill them.
"At this time, at least one of the suspected aliens fired at the Border Patrol agents. Two Border Patrol agents returned fire, one with his long gun and one with his pistol."
Point 2)
Originally Posted by deflave
Quote
Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them.
Lie.
Can you provide a reference saying that Brian Terry's crew was the only one sent out with these rules of engagement?
Point 3)
Originally Posted by deflave
Quote
Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders.
The recent 259-0 disapproval of ICE�s point man John Morton by his fellow coworkers lends itself to an unwanted pattern in federal law enforcement agencies. Just last year the U.S. Border Patrol�s union, National Border Patrol Council put forth a similar vote and declared �no confidence� in their leader, David V. Aguilar.
The unanimous �no confidence vote� from the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) rank-and-file union came about because management is abandoning its mission of protecting the public in order to support a political agenda including amnesty unnerves ICE agents.
After sending a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder on the sentencing of Border Patrol Agent Jesus Diaz, Congressman Duncan Hunter today reiterated the necessity for a thorough explanation of the decision to prosecute Agent Diaz, despite being cleared by two separate investigations. Agent Diaz was recently sentenced to two years in federal prison for what the Justice Department asserts was the improper restraint of a drug smuggler
Johnny Sutton isn�t everyone�s favorite federal prosecutor.
President Bush�s pick for U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Texas, confirmed by the U.S. Senate on Nov. 30, 2001, has been vilified in the media and by Border Patrol groups, a few lawmakers and others for his prosecution of several U.S. Border Patrol agents.
On June 30, the San Antonio and Austin Chapters of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. and hundreds of bikers from American Freedom Riders � a group dedicated to stopping illegal immigration from coming across the border � will surround Sutton�s office at high noon and call for him to resign.
deflave, can you back up anything you say with any reference or are you just spouting your opinions?
I for ONE haven't forgotten that he was sent into the desert by the Border Patrol, which answers to DHS, with rules of engagement requiring the use of a frigging BEAN BAG gun to confront and arrest heavily armed rip crews.
For the first time, federal officials also revealed that Terry and the elite squad of federal agents initially fired bean bags -- not bullets -- at the heavily armed drug cartel crew in the mountains south of Tucson in December 2010. During the exchange, Terry was shot and killed.
"When the suspected aliens did not drop their weapons, two Border Patrol agents deployed 'less than lethal' bean bags at the suspected aliens," FBI search warrant requests say, according to the Arizona Star newspaper, which first obtained the documents. The ammunition is designed to wound and take down targets not kill them.
"At this time, at least one of the suspected aliens fired at the Border Patrol agents. Two Border Patrol agents returned fire, one with his long gun and one with his pistol."
Point 2)
Originally Posted by deflave
Quote
Do you think he was the first law enforcement officer sent out with those orders? No, he was just unlucky enough to be the first one to die because of them.
Lie.
Can you provide a reference saying that Brian Terry's crew was the only one sent out with these rules of engagement?
Point 3)
Originally Posted by deflave
Quote
Dozens or hundreds of agents were put at risk because this DOJ/DHS/CBP has a history of jailing, throwing agents under the bus or endangering their lives in order to protect illegal invaders.
The recent 259-0 disapproval of ICE�s point man John Morton by his fellow coworkers lends itself to an unwanted pattern in federal law enforcement agencies. Just last year the U.S. Border Patrol�s union, National Border Patrol Council put forth a similar vote and declared �no confidence� in their leader, David V. Aguilar.
The unanimous �no confidence vote� from the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) rank-and-file union came about because management is abandoning its mission of protecting the public in order to support a political agenda including amnesty unnerves ICE agents.
After sending a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder on the sentencing of Border Patrol Agent Jesus Diaz, Congressman Duncan Hunter today reiterated the necessity for a thorough explanation of the decision to prosecute Agent Diaz, despite being cleared by two separate investigations. Agent Diaz was recently sentenced to two years in federal prison for what the Justice Department asserts was the improper restraint of a drug smuggler
Johnny Sutton isn�t everyone�s favorite federal prosecutor.
President Bush�s pick for U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Texas, confirmed by the U.S. Senate on Nov. 30, 2001, has been vilified in the media and by Border Patrol groups, a few lawmakers and others for his prosecution of several U.S. Border Patrol agents.
On June 30, the San Antonio and Austin Chapters of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps. and hundreds of bikers from American Freedom Riders � a group dedicated to stopping illegal immigration from coming across the border � will surround Sutton�s office at high noon and call for him to resign.
deflave, can you back up anything you say with any reference or are you just spouting your opinions?
Is he lying or is he just wrong due to ignorance of the facts?
One indicates a willingness to deceive and the other is just being ill informed and repeating what he understands to be true.
I don't know Calhoun well enough to determine that he is intentionally deceiving so, unless shown otherwise, I assume that he just doesn't have all the facts and is speaking from a position of ignorance.
You've publicly called me a liar, and now that you can't back up a single thing you've said, you're just going to crawl into the woodwork?
Man up, and either show me where I'm wrong or admit you're a clueless frigging troll and apologize.
Laughin'...
You just keep postin' your lies. You got it all figured out.
Travis
I'm man enough to acknowledge that I can be wrong. Show me SOMETHING that backs up your allegations that I've lied about three things. Not that I'm just mistaken, but that I've lied. Hell, PM me if you can't man up enough to do it publicly. Or apologize for calling me a liar.
I've always enjoyed your posts, didn't think you were a man who couldn't stand behind his own words.
Assuming your own assertions are correct, which I don't, the better term would be that Calhoun is incorrect due to either not knowing the facts or a difference of opinion as to the interpretation of them, as opposed to willfully misrepresenting. I don't believe Calhoun lied and I'm not sure your facts are correct let alone your interpretation of them. I'm not going to call you a liar though because I don't think you are one even if we differ in our opinions.
I could give two [bleep] what you think.
Regurgitating a lie is still a lie.
And using a dead man's image, surrounded by complete bullschit, in order to make some sort of half-ass argument over ammo purchases, is pretty [bleep] pathetic.
I did not call you a liar. I stated what you posted were lies.
PM inbound.
Travis
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
Of course in the end I don't give two pieces of fecal matter what you think either so I guess we can call it even up.
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
Of course in the end I don't give two pieces of fecal matter what you think either so I guess we can call it even up.
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
In short, you are a piece of [bleep] that doesn't know [bleep] from shinola.
What do you do for a living, you chickenshitt [bleep]?
What a funny, sad little man. So afraid to even state what he does for a living. Here's hoping your family wises up and plants you 6 feet under and soon.
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
Of course in the end I don't give two pieces of fecal matter what you think either so I guess we can call it even up.
Calhoun invited me to PM him and I did. I do care what Calhoun thought of the subject, but as stated previously, I could give two [bleep] what you think.
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
Of course in the end I don't give two pieces of fecal matter what you think either so I guess we can call it even up.
Calhoun invited me to PM him and I did. I do care what Calhoun thought of the subject, but as stated previously, I could give two [bleep] what you think.
Travis
Actually you stated you couldn't give to shixts what I think and I returned the favor. Does this mean I now have to say I don't give two [bleep] what you think or are you using [bleep] and shixt interchangeably? They do mean different things you know, unless maybe you're in prison.
That's a pretty thin differentiation. Plus the fact that you did it publicly and now you're going private. It's almost as weak as S Head alluding to expertise on this, then when called out saying he doesn't really have expertise, but he knows because he was a Warrant Officer in the Coast Guard and the rest of us that don't post all our info here, 'cause we're pusssies, don't on accounta' we weren't WO's in the Coast Guard. Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta because they cut him a check all those years. Also, he'd tell us all this stuff that he's in the know about but he can't because it's all top super secret classified esoteric knowledge and he would get offed by a team of secret agents from the USDA if he revealed it.
In short, you are a piece of [bleep] that doesn't know [bleep] from shinola.
What do you do for a living, you chickenshitt [bleep]?
What a funny, sad little man. So afraid to even state what he does for a living. Here's hoping your family wises up and plants you 6 feet under and soon.
All this is is a mild disagreement on a message board. Somebody who goes ballistic suggesting the things you have is...nuts. I'm sure your next move will be to call it all a joke or trolling and laugh it off that I got offended or took it seriously or whatever. If there's anybody who is a "danger to our way of life" it's somebody who threatens folks on a message board after asking over and over again for personal info. I know it's an internet cliche' but you need professional help.
I can't read that, only read what Deflave quoted. That said, I'll go out on a limb and say you still ain't posted what you do for a living and you are still a dumpphuck that has no real experience to back up your vagina fueled theories.
I can't read that, only read what Deflave quoted. That said, I'll go out on a limb and say you still ain't posted what you do for a living and you are still a dumpphuck that has no real experience to back up your vagina fueled theories.
Am I far off, anyone?
Yes, far off. He's currently a farmer, and has accomplished quite a lot previous to that also, to include an advanced degree and officer's rank in the Army. He's mentioned these things for years here, from time to time.
I can't read that, only read what Deflave quoted. That said, I'll go out on a limb and say you still ain't posted what you do for a living and you are still a dumpphuck that has no real experience to back up your vagina fueled theories.
Am I far off, anyone?
Pretty much an X-ring shot.
He ain't gonna either. I figure he's either on welfare or disability. Probably the former.
But he sure knows a lot about zombies and other important stuff. That's why he uses a fictitious character as an online handle and hides his real name.
Plus we're all stupid but he's not because we believe the news media but he believes the government, which is mo-betta
I think a great many are going to be ashamed - and feeling mighty stupid - when one day truth comes to light that these work hand in hand to lie and lead astray all who hear.
And that both are our enemy and always were.
And this to include "education" as it is just another branch of the mass media misdirect and misinform propaganda system.
Mighty stupid indeed. Any who believes any of it fits the definition of fool. (most notably, the bible definition) If one reads and hears figuring most times the opposite is true, then the news and anything gov says is worth the time.
To win the war, do not fight the guys with guns. Eliminate the elected progressive turds who think they are God and do not fear voters. Look at Texas prosecutors and a couple shot and now others are refusing to take the cases.. any name and residence is on the internet. Standard guerilla warfare tactics.
Think about the panic at the newspaper in NY when their names and home addresses got published on the internet and no other paper has published gun owners names since. Nothing like fear to send a.liberal running and adjust their attitude!
50 gunowners wit no guns and picket signs start showing up at their residence and peacefully picketing with lawyer and video cameras. The boo boo will hit the fan and perfectly legal.
I can't read that, only read what Deflave quoted. That said, I'll go out on a limb and say you still ain't posted what you do for a living and you are still a dumpphuck that has no real experience to back up your vagina fueled theories.
Am I far off, anyone?
Yes, far off. He's currently a farmer, and has accomplished quite a lot previous to that also, to include an advanced degree and officer's rank in the Army. He's mentioned these things for years here, from time to time.
Compelling. I can pull up some of your first posts on the 'Fire. Apparently you a rifle and elk hunting expert, akin to Lee24
Compelling. I can pull up some of your first posts on the 'Fire. Apparently you a rifle and elk hunting expert, akin to Lee24
Been shooting since I was eight. Went elk hunting twice in my life, one of which (when I was younger) a five-day camp-based hunt in the Colorado Rockies, involving some fairly challenging mountainous terrain and horseback riding (the latter of which I've been doing since I was a kid, too). Never said I was an expert either in elk hunting or rifles, though, as much as I might enjoy learning about, participating in, and discussing those things.
Never been to Africa, but I have a number of rifles in the African class, such as .416 Rem Mag, .375 H&H, .330 Dakota and 9.3x62mm Mauser. From what I've read, the latter round was once very popular for dangerous game. Still considered adequate? Still legal?
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
By moving up to the faster .375s you are not really increasing the size (or dangerousness) of animal it is appropriate for, but rather the range at which you can aim dead-on. The .375 H&H, with the right loads (i.e., solids), is capable of through and through penetration of a Cape Buffalo within normal dangerous game hunting distances. Its knock down ability is not significantly increased with higher velocity. The .375 H&H is a good rifle if you will only be taking one to Africa. If you plan to take two, you would be better served, in my opinion, with the .338 for plains game, and the .416 (loaded with solids) for dangerous game. The bigger bullet hits harder, and stops charges better. The good thing about the .338 for plains game is that, firstly, they are big tough animals, secondly, it gives plenty of trajectory flatness, and thirdly, if you are in dangerous game hunting country, you never know what might come along, and you are better prepared to deal with it with a .338 than with a 7mm Magnum or .30-06. <br> <br>For the .416, do most of your practice with very light loads, and do lots of it from a standing position at 50 yard targets. Gradually up the load as you approach the hunt. Of course, you should early on work up your full power load, just do the practice with the wimpy loads, or else you are going to develope a flinch. Know the rifle real well before going for anything that can hunt you back.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Exactly right. The Dakota 97 is half the price of the 76, and also an excellent rifle (miles above any current production Winchester 70). I have both a 97 and a 76, and neither has had a problem, and needed no adjustment from the way they came new. They are both no-hassle rifles. <br> <br>Another good no-hassle rifle is supposed to be the Kimber M84, which is available in .308 Winchester (not .30-06). I don't have one of those, but I understand that they are like slightly refined pre-64 Winchester Model 70s. They have better quality control than Winchester currently has though, which will probably make them better no-hassle rifles.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Goats are tough animals. The 7mm-08 is a hard hitting round. 160 grainers are probably hitting with more energy than a 165 grain 06 at 300 yards, due to the greater balistic coefficient and retained velocity. It will likely penetrate better too, due to better sectional density. The 7-08 would be a good "one rifle" for North America. <br> <br>It all basically comes down to how you load. Anything from a .270 Winchester to a .338 Winchester Magnum can be tailored properly to any big game species in North America, and could make a fine one rifle for our continent. Although not ideal for big Grizzlies, even the .270 Winchester has been used to take lots of them. It all comes down to bullet selection and hitting your target right.
Brad, that is my opinion as well. When the Mauser 98 was developed, it was at the behest of wealthy national governments, for national armies, and the cost per unit was not an issue, so naturally Mauser went all out to make something that would hold up to warfare conditions and last several lifetimes of rugged usage. Winchester 70's (pre-64) came the closest to replicating the most desirable of the Mauser 98's features in a sporting rifle. I have about 15 hunting bolt-action rifles. One is a Remington 725 (push feed). Three others are Weatherbies. One is a Blaser (straight pull), and the others are about 50/50 sporting Mausers (FN and BRNO) and CRF Winchester 70s (three of these were made before 64, two being the "Classic" CRF models). I have never had a problem with the push feed rifles, but strangely I have had a problem with one of the CRF rifles. It was on an Elk hunt in the Colorado Rockies, at about 9,000 feet. Somehow, as I attempted to quietly rack one .270 Winchester round from the magazine into the chamber, the round got ahead of the claw and was pushed into the chamber, not under control. I realized this when I was unable to close the bolt, and immediately pulled back on the bolt handle. The round was stuck in there, and my only backup rifle was a day's ride on horseback away, at camp (and my guide was unarmed), and I'd have to climb down a considerable distance just to get to my horse at that, so I tried everything I could to dislodge the round. Finally, my guide was able to do it. He happened to have a three piece cleaning rod in his backpack. Problem solved, and it never happened again, but the CRF is not flawless, at least not in Classic Winchester 70's. Maybe if the mag had been designed just for the .270 Winchester, this wouldn't have happened. I don't know. Just food for thought.
Never been to Africa, but I have a number of rifles in the African class, such as .416 Rem Mag, .375 H&H, .330 Dakota and 9.3x62mm Mauser. From what I've read, the latter round was once very popular for dangerous game. Still considered adequate? Still legal?
By moving up to the faster .375s you are not really increasing the size (or dangerousness) of animal it is appropriate for, but rather the range at which you can aim dead-on. The .375 H&H, with the right loads (i.e., solids), is capable of through and through penetration of a Cape Buffalo within normal dangerous game hunting distances. Its knock down ability is not significantly increased with higher velocity. The .375 H&H is a good rifle if you will only be taking one to Africa. If you plan to take two, you would be better served, in my opinion, with the .338 for plains game, and the .416 (loaded with solids) for dangerous game. The bigger bullet hits harder, and stops charges better. The good thing about the .338 for plains game is that, firstly, they are big tough animals, secondly, it gives plenty of trajectory flatness, and thirdly, if you are in dangerous game hunting country, you never know what might come along, and you are better prepared to deal with it with a .338 than with a 7mm Magnum or .30-06.
For the .416, do most of your practice with very light loads, and do lots of it from a standing position at 50 yard targets. Gradually up the load as you approach the hunt. Of course, you should early on work up your full power load, just do the practice with the wimpy loads, or else you are going to develope a flinch. Know the rifle real well before going for anything that can hunt you back.
Exactly right. The Dakota 97 is half the price of the 76, and also an excellent rifle (miles above any current production Winchester 70). I have both a 97 and a 76, and neither has had a problem, and needed no adjustment from the way they came new. They are both no-hassle rifles.
Another good no-hassle rifle is supposed to be the Kimber M84, which is available in .308 Winchester (not .30-06). I don't have one of those, but I understand that they are like slightly refined pre-64 Winchester Model 70s. They have better quality control than Winchester currently has though, which will probably make them better no-hassle rifles.
Goats are tough animals. The 7mm-08 is a hard hitting round. 160 grainers are probably hitting with more energy than a 165 grain 06 at 300 yards, due to the greater ballistic coefficient and retained velocity. It will likely penetrate better too, due to better sectional density. The 7-08 would be a good "one rifle" for North America.
It all basically comes down to how you load. Anything from a .270 Winchester to a .338 Winchester Magnum can be tailored properly to any big game species in North America, and could make a fine one rifle for our continent. Although not ideal for big Grizzlies, even the .270 Winchester has been used to take lots of them. It all comes down to bullet selection and hitting your target right.
Brad, that is my opinion as well. When the Mauser 98 was developed, it was at the behest of wealthy national governments, for national armies, and the cost per unit was not an issue, so naturally Mauser went all out to make something that would hold up to warfare conditions and last several lifetimes of rugged usage. Winchester 70's (pre-64) came the closest to replicating the most desirable of the Mauser 98's features in a sporting rifle. I have about 15 hunting bolt-action rifles. One is a Remington 725 (push feed). Three others are Weatherbies. One is a Blaser (straight pull), and the others are about 50/50 sporting Mausers (FN and BRNO) and CRF Winchester 70s (three of these were made before 64, two being the "Classic" CRF models). I have never had a problem with the push feed rifles, but strangely I have had a problem with one of the CRF rifles. It was on an Elk hunt in the Colorado Rockies, at about 9,000 feet. Somehow, as I attempted to quietly rack one .270 Winchester round from the magazine into the chamber, the round got ahead of the claw and was pushed into the chamber, not under control. I realized this when I was unable to close the bolt, and immediately pulled back on the bolt handle. The round was stuck in there, and my only backup rifle was a day's ride on horseback away, at camp (and my guide was unarmed), and I'd have to climb down a considerable distance just to get to my horse at that, so I tried everything I could to dislodge the round. Finally, my guide was able to do it. He happened to have a three piece cleaning rod in his backpack. Problem solved, and it never happened again, but the CRF is not flawless, at least not in Classic Winchester 70's. Maybe if the mag had been designed just for the .270 Winchester, this wouldn't have happened. I don't know. Just food for thought.
So, S Head, what is it that you're accusing me of here, exactly? Not a thing I said about what I own and what I experienced is untrue. My advice was my opinion, and not offered with any claim to extensive experience in elk hunting. I even clearly state I've never hunted Africa. What I know about Africa is from having had one close friend (with whom I've hunted wild boar) who hunted Africa and another fellow I once hunted deer with who had extensively hunted Africa, supplemented by extensive study on my part, and conversation.
You see, when smart folks find themselves interested in a subject, they research the opinions of those with expert level experience. What you need to show is where I claimed, as you suggested, to be personally an expert rather than merely expressing informed opinions regarding these things. Failure to do that makes you completely full of schit. But then we knew that already, didn't we?
Well done, sir!
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