What do you think?

It's a sure sign of a wasted life if you're posting these videos.

Keiser's argument seems compelling, but I'm waiting to hear the counter arguments.

TRH assumes because he has never done any fracking that it must be a hoax.

I'll throw $20 in a hat for a hooker.

Like his other posts, he'll stir the pot with his extensive "knowledge" then disappear when he gets his ass handed to him...

Sounds like you got a brand new delusion to run with, I guess congratulations are in order.

oil company's are not in the habit of throwing money away on stuff that doesn't work.

Is that addressed to Steelhead or myself?

i spent the last 3 weeks on 8 wells for penn virginia.

Really?

Absolutely.. It boggles my mind how capital intensive this stuff is.

Sadly, I'm getting responses mainly from the "blank page bunch," so if cogent responses are being given, I'm missing them.

That ain't all you're missing s h i tbird.

What a bunch of crap. I live in fracking country. Hell in Billings they are building a 854 million refinery because of fracking.

Big oil doesn't want us to know that fluoride is used in fracking...

Literal chit-tons of frack sand comes in by rail and has been off loaded here for the past couple of years.

That and pipe. Crazy amounts.

Do you have a specific response to Max Keiser's arguments regarding the actual economics of it? According to him, if I understand what he's saying, all of the profits from fracking go to paying the interest on the corporate debt, and that's with historically low interest rates, which are unsustainable.

Conspiracy kook and vacccine denialist is asking for congent responses?

It's scary that you are allowed to be around children.

Oh yeah? Then I say it's a hoax too.

Peek away, kook. Everyone knows you do it..

It's not the so called "blank page bunch" , it is your inability to keep up. Go unplug the clothes dryer & plug yourself into the socket then just maybe you won't be so dim.


Mike

i cost on average about 150,000 a day to produce one of those wells after its been fracked.

Are you guys (speaking of Loco and STX) agreeing with Keiser?

I didn't listen to all of it because I hear that crap all the time. We have oil and gas because of fracking. Without fracking gas would $8.00 to $10.00 gallon. These are the same kind of nuts that say there is global warming even when the polar ice is growing. Dumb ass liberals.

I pray to God daily that you know SOMEONE that will be nice enough to post when you kick the bucket.

He made a very specific economics argument. That's the argument that would need refutation.

Daily

Heavywalker, I believe you're capable of cogent discussion. Can you refute Keiser's argument?

Or goes in on charges..

I am not wasting 25 minutes of my life watching that. So I will have to bow out of the cogent discussion on this one.

You'd have to dive into the balance sheets of those companies to refute what he is saying.

Basically he's saying that fracking is a hoax because it's not profitable to get oil/gas via fracking. The do it because they "make" money doing it, but in the end the companies are adding debt to make that "profit".

I got that out of the first 5 minutes.

Around here the natural gas industry went from nothing to booming in less than ten years. There are a few groups of people who argue that tracking tainted their well water. The other day there was an article in the local paper stating "there's been no scientific evidence that tracking has ruined any wells"

the sound of money

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...93n5U0&list=UUsRE6kd6gDTdEJ1QsX1xkSg[/video]

Lol. Hyperbole much?

JFC.

Some of us are waiting to hear your counter arguments on a whole bunch of stuff...

Not much sweeter than a few v-12 Detroits going strong.

Unless you are the one manning one when it plugs off.
Less than 3 miles south of my place they are putting in about 12 wells.
For a while they had 2 going head to head to finish up the wells.
They were for 2 different company's.
I find it hard to believe that the only benefit is to a balance sheet,when my mother-in-laws royalty checks keep going up due to increased production.

In Pa Rog?

Maybe Max is trying to short sell oil companies? Isn't he some kind of environmental activist?

I think that's the argument they are making. They frack, because they generate and pass around a lot of money while doing it. But, hidden in the balance sheet is mounting debt that will eventually implode the companies. That's why it's a hoax. It works, but it's very expensive to do It's like a ceo making 10 million a year while his company is taking on massive debt. Eventually the company goes down, but people make a whole lot of money in the meantime, and thats whey they keep it going.

Like I said, you'd have to carefully examine a whole lot of financial documents to either refute or validate the claim.

Electric cars must be a "hoax" too then.

Almost all new technology is cost-prohibitive at start-up.

rut-roh, looks like there's trouble in kooksville...

Uber cogent

The best way to refute his arguments is get the annual reports of big oil including the different SEC reports. That will explain everything. I don't have the time to refute stupid.

Sorry if I'm cranky but I get tired of this liberal chit. It's like trying refute Christianity it's a waste of time.

According the to the engineers and scientists working the fields. Without fracking the supply of oil would be way down while demand would be up. Fracking has allowed the supply of oil to be awash. Hence, the price of oil is to stay in the $3.50 a gallon range. More new refineries are starting to come on line.

I'll take that as a concession by default.

PS His discussion of this question is fully contained in the first twelve minutes.

I've never heard that about him. I think he mainly deals with economics and finance.

I bet big oil will be around long after we are all dead and buried. Ten years ago or so it cost big oil about a billion dollars a hole to drill in the ocean. Big oil should have been bankrupt by now but seems to be still going strong.

And liberal fiction apparently.

Max Keiser is not stupid.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Not sure what was liberal or fictional about his economic inviability argument. Did you listen?

He's a liberal he's stupid. We should be thankful that big oil is willing to take the risk to find more oil and build refineries so that we can have oil and gas instead of trying to find ways to shut them down.

I hope we all like driving a horse and buggy. I suppose liberals would complain about that too.

I'm just pissed off!

No bigger "hoax" imo, than green stuff.

Are you really that stupid? Is it natural or do you practice ?

I don't think he fits neatly into either the liberal or conservative categories.

+1

Horses would create to much green house gas for them. To large of a carbon footprint.

Max Kaiser isn't stupid, but he doesn't have an clue to all the dynamics of resource extraction.

What isn't taken into account is the cost of resource extraction or doing business in very unstable locations and countries. Just look at what it costs to secure Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia from fundamentalists. It's an lot less expensive to produce domestically with higher wages than it is to import with very high backend cost of security.

I know a little about the resource extraction industry as I work in deep underground metal mining and mining startups and projects.

Another thing if it is all a shell game within the company,How is it possible for her checks to go up after they finish the wells?

Royalties are usually based on a percentage of production

Thats what i am saying if it was just a shell game in the company her checks would not have gone up.
Why pay money to the holder if it is not worth the effort.

That idea is just screwy or i am just to honest to get it.

It's possible for individuals to profit even when the industry isn't, long term, economically viable. Think Ponzi scheme.

I know what ypu're. saying. I posted before i was done typing. My royalties on a gas well are 6 %, My checks have gone down wven though production went up. The company I am leased to decided that landowners should pay the increase in transmission fees out of their royalties. Our County Commissioners said otherwise. And a group of us ( large group). Have filed a class action suit against said company

$2M frac jobs are common here in the Permian Basin. So are
100-2000 bbl/day wells. You boys can do the math and see if it pays out.

The simple answer and spot on.

Another $5 should be plenty.

What would you know?

If big oil is a Ponzi scheme than you all have better like living in the stone age when the scheme fails.

Why not just compare barrels per day of production per well in the same areas from pre and post fracking? Many zones were not fracked years ago because improved fracking had not been developed at the time to make the zones productive. The pay zones were always there, but fracking techniques were not available to make them productive.

Yeah. Electric cars are a scam. They don't exist...

Apple destroyed it's own iPod sales by iintroducing the iPhone. Sometimes companies do things that cost a lot NOW to make even more later.

Anyhow, I don't think the word hoax means quite what you think it does.

Improved fracking is making some landowners rich now, when previously, oil companies would not pay crap for their chances of making a producing well on their property.

Only the federal govt is kooky enough to believe in deficit spending and even that will come to an abrupt end.

Business is, by its nature, intimately tied to reality, unless it's in bed with govt.

Damn straight!

Last fall rode with a friend who runs an oilwell service company out here in west Texas. We were kinda sorta servicing wells in between setting up to call coyotes.

Anyways, John took me to one well that was originally drilled inthe 1950's. It was pumping less than 5 barrels a day 3 years ago. Since they fracked the formation it's bedded in, it's now producing over 100 barrels per day. John has hundreds of such wells that his company services.

Fracking a hoax? Gimme a farking break.

With the technology in drilling horizontal wells and the advancements in fracking we are now able to produce wells in the 1000-2000 BOPD instead of the 200-300 BOPD barn burners of the past. Yes the frac is for real, and no big oil doesnt throw money away.

He hosts�Keiser Report, a financial program broadcast on Russian state media channel�RT. Until November 2012, Keiser anchored�On the Edge, a program of news and analysis hosted by Iran's�Press TV."
And this....."Keiser founded the�hedge fund�Karmabanque, which sought to profit from any decline in equity value of companies that are susceptible to�boycott�from environmental groups.[26]�The hedge fund's progress was followed monthly in�The Ecologistmagazine.[27]�Its targets included�CocaCola[28]�and�McDonald's."

It appears he is going after the oil companies now.
Just google his name and see what fields of activism he mucks around in.

TRH, do you even know what fracing is?
Just wondering.

Look it up on wiki.

Lol

fracturing. I just can't get myself to spell fracing.

If you really think that his argument is compelling,you need to have your head examined. But almost everyone here knows that except you.
That imbecile threw out so many unchallenged accusations that he sounds like the Alex Jones of the financial world.
I'm going to clue you in on something Mr.Browneye.
COMPANIES ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY.
And that refutes everything that you and that economic idiot say or think.
Jeeze,you are one stupid fool.

Ralph, you just did!!

Indeed.

All I got from any of that is Putin must not like us fracking.

Didn't I see this guy refute the holocaust?

It shouldn't take that much as I am given to understand that sympathy [bleep] for the mentally challenged are at a much reduced rate.


A dollar twenty-five should cover it.

In the case of oil companies boycotting won't work so spread lies of the profitability of fracking.

Not bad for 3.7 seconds of work. She'd barely get passed the reveal.

Go to Pa for yourself. All the counter argument needed is right there.

I will refute it. All you have to do is go to the EIA.gov site and search for fracking. The are numerous articles on how it is driving the cost of natural gas down and use up. The US is poised to become a net exporter of LNG by 2020.

Y'all need to quit feeding this troll. He posts this stupid sch!t and then gets turned on by the swarm of responses.

He believes nothing with a .gov extension.

I didn't realize we were getting TRH a female hooker...

That saves the cost of a hooker.

Well yes...it does seem like a wanton waste of resources.



How about we just get him admittance to a petting zoo!

I don't question Keiser's personal integrity. He quit a high paying position with the BBC hosting his own TV show because of a gag order on the issue of Israel and Gaza, i.e., he was told he could keep his show only if he promised not to mention Israel in anything but a positive light with regard to that issue. He then immediately announced his resignation from the BBC and the reason for it. You have to give the guy credit for integrity.

Right Chris,

We get it now,...the whole fracing scenario is operated by the joos.

jeez you come up with some 8 ball chit.

GTC

Now that those who know what they are talking about in the oil business have pointed out the absurdity that all those companies are part of a Ponzi scheme...let us take a look at the integrity of TRH's source.

It took less than 30 seconds to find this...
Timothy Maxwell "Max" Keiser is an American broadcaster and film maker. He hosts Keiser Report, a financial program broadcast on Russian state media channel RT. Wikipedia

And less than 3 minutes to find this...
Slate:Meet Max Keiser, the thinking man�s Alex Jones.
By Jeremy Stahl 7/15/13
If you�re not a devotee of Alex Jones� radio show or a regular viewer of Moscow�s wacky propaganda network Russia Today, then you�re missing out on Max Keiser.

Since the 2008 financial crash, the 53-year-old broadcaster, former Paine Webber stockbroker, Bitcoin evangelist, and endlessly quotable provocateur has positioned himself as a raging avenger against the various evils�real and imagined�of the global financial elite, or as Keiser likes to call them, the �banksters.�

In the years since the 2008�09 crash, he�s become an eccentric hero of a certain ultralibertarian, 9/11-conspiracy-espousing, gold-bug-loving corner of alternative media.

On his Russia Today program the Keiser Report, the host rages against the �scum� and �financial terrorists� at Goldman Sachs, assorted �mass-murdering arsonists burning down financial markets around the world,� and the �Fourth Reich� of the Angela Merkel�led eurozone.

He has called for mass hangings of bankers and warned of a looming currency Armageddon.
Earlier this year, during an appearance on the Iranian English-language network PressTV, Keiser predicted an imminent �hot war� between China and Japan, which would lead to the collapse of the U.S. dollar.

His go-to reference for political and economic adversaries is Nazism. (Titles of recent Keiser Report episodes include �Global Financial Holocaust� and �Debt Death Camps.�) His rhetoric is sewn together with phrases like �the maw of this Cuisinart of fraud.�

The clip that made Keiser an instant alt-media star�and brought him to the attention of paranoiac shock jock Alex Jones�was an epic rant on France 24 against Goldman Sachs, whose misdeeds he compared to the atrocities of Auschwitz.

In that same video, Keiser said that �the tragedy of 9/11 is more of these Goldman Sachs bankers didn�t go down� while casually invoking 9/11 conspiracy theories.


It gets tough when a man's own words show the world who he really is.

Doesn't change the fact that RT is nothing but a Russian propaganda network. Just means he would rather spew Russian propaganda as opposed to that of the U.K.

I think if RT operates anything like what you say, it's that they give air time to folks with views not in sync with US propaganda rather than hiring folks who put out Russian propaganda.

Just to set the record straight, Keiser never held a high paying position within the BBC..

Yeah, Putin has never been all that big on propaganda.

US propaganda huh?
I really wish you weren't such a coward. If you did have a set of balls,maybe you could bring yourself to move away from this terrible country that allows you the freedom to open your mouth and spew your cooky brand of idiocy.
Maybe Costa Rica or Belize would allow you to fester inside their borders.

Looks like you may be technically correct in one respect, i.e., he appears to have funded the show entirely on his own. Of course, what makes having a show on the BBC lucrative goes far beyond salary.

But here's a Max Keiser quote on the issue:

"We were told repeatedly from our BBC executives while producing The Oracle with Max Keiser on BBC World News that any mention of Israel was completely off limits and that this was a matter of unofficial policy. The reason this became a bone of contention was that I was paying for the entire production out of my own pocket and did not appreciate being censored like that. I felt as though I had no choice but to stop doing the show. I�m sure the above mentioned report makes clear the BBC�s bias and this is why the BBC has chosen to spend �350,000 of UK tax payer money to cover this scandal up."

Leave Costa Rica out of this. It's a pretty cool place.

I just wish his parents wouldn't have put internet in their basement.

Succinct and insightful.

A+

Another look at the integrity of TRH's source:
http://www.interpretermag.com/
Russian TV�s Max Keiser: Blaming the Victims of 9/11
Adam Holland 4/8/14
Conspiracy theorists have an unfortunate tendency to blame those killed in mass-murders for the attacks that killed them. Nothing about the 9/11 �Truth� movement is more disturbing than when it either says outright or just implies that the victims somehow deserved to die.

Disgracefully, Max Keiser, whom RT provides a daily forum, does just this.
Both on his RT program and in interviews elsewhere, Keiser has promoted the idea that Cantor Fitzgerald, the World Trade Center-based trading firm that lost 658 employees to the 9/11 attacks, had foreknowledge of the attacks.
Keiser says that Cantor Fitzgerald attempted to make money on this knowledge by keeping it secret and placing put options on stocks which could be expected to suffer a loss because of the attacks.
Keiser literally and in so many words accuses Cantor Fitzgerald traders of trying to make a corrupt profit based on this macabre form of insider trading rather than saving their own lives and those of the other victims.

Those familiar with the 9/11 Truth movement will no doubt be familiar with the conspiracy theory claiming that a rise in demand for put options on American Airlines and United Airlines in the days leading up to 9/11 can be reasonably explained only by advance knowledge of the attacks.
It�s been a mainstay of the truther movement, appearing in books by the movement�s leaders, such as David Ray Griffin (9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions and 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals speak out), and Jim Marrs (Inside Job: Unmasking the 9/11 Conspiracies and The Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9;11 and the Loss of Liberty), and repeated on innumerable websites and talk shows.
Proponents of this theory also claim that financial institutions and government regulators, seeing these suspicious trading patterns, must have known something was amiss and worked to cover it up, proving that they too were in on the conspiracy.

As with other 9/11 truth theories, there is a kernel of truth at its origin. There were, in fact, spikes in put options for those two stocks prior to 9/11.
The problem for the truthers is that such spikes are not unusual, nor were these particular spikes without other explanation.
In fact, all of that was made clear by journalists and investigators in the months following 9/11.

The conspiracy theory was, in effect, debunked before it was immortalized by the truthers.
By June 2002, Insight Magazine had pointed out that other spikes in put options for these stocks, including one much larger than these, occurred in the year leading up to the attacks.

What, so all you Einsteins don't think we're force fed propaganda?

Any of you Teslas watched CNN or Faux in the last few days?

And this: Did You Get Fleeced By Max Keiser, Alex Jones And The Rest Of The Stooges?
Tuesday, October 4, 2011, by Stathis

Several months ago I�warned about the silver pump-and-dump being orchestrated by Max Keiser and Alex Jones.
[...]
First, let me say this. If you are naive enough to listen to radio and TV�personalities for investment advice, then you deserve to lose everything.�

Why anyone would listen to bozos like Max Keiser and Alex Jones is beyond me, especially considering the fact they directly benefit financially by pumping gold and silver...

Got an independent source confirming what Keiser said about the BBC in the quote above?

Pete, it must suck to be forced to support a national news media outlet with your tax dollars that's little more than an Israeli propaganda outlet. The MSM is the same here, but at least we're not forced to support it with tax dollars. Well, not directly, anyway.

TFF.

Doesn't change the fact that RT is a Russian propaganda machine created by Putin.

That's more relevant to their in-house news rooms than to the folks who already had names in the West as opposition voices to US establishment propaganda. They hire these folks (or ask them to be guests on their shows) because they provide a counterpoint to US propaganda rather than as mouthpieces for Russian propaganda.

What would you suggest is their motivation for doing so? Because they care for the American citizen so much?

I thought I was clear on that. They consider that to be damaging to the propaganda points put out by the US. It's a two pronged assault. Firstly they have their own news rooms generate propaganda, and secondly they give air time to folks who's messages are out of sync with US propaganda points. Keiser falls into the latter category. His message is ordinarily suppressed in the US MSM, so he's given air time on RT so Americans can have access to information that does damage to the official US party line.

It's not about good guys and bad guys. Powerful central states are full of bad guys attempting to manipulate what folks think while attempting to throw monkey wrenches into their enemies' propaganda machines.

Only the Real Browneye would trust a failed comedian when it comes to fracturing shale to extract petroleum. What a buffoon!!!

So Keiser is a useful idiot? I agree.

Sweet lord, I love this place!

Pretty amazing that anyone can think oil companies can make more money by scamming than producing oil! The oil companies are worth billions-trillions of dollars and you really think that they would flush that down the toilet to scam their investors? Only an idiot would think that. The source broadcasts on Iranian TV, sounds like he is an idiot to me.

keep telling you guys TRH is a parrot.....he can post links to videos and articles but doesnt have the braincells needed to come up with any sort of idea of his own.....he just repeats back what he finds....

Can be a hoot, can't it.

Hardly that. I meant only what I said.

Not stupid is not the same as not ignorant.
Applies to more than Max.

Well, that explains why Keiser looks to other failed comedians to explain world financial markets.

What a joke, how can anyone believe this drivel? Oil companies make money by throwing it away on a pointless process that pollutes the ground water and causes earthquakes? Really? I mean, really?

Keiser is just a huckster trying to make a fortune off his virtual currency and slandering people who actually do something for their paychecks. I doubt he even has the integrity of an honest liberal.

Let me remind you, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

No what really sucks is that we have to fund PBS with our tax dollars that is nothing more than a shill for the muslims.

Yea, how'd that shale thing work out.

That is funny. I think of him as the douche in "Goodwill Hunting" who is unoriginal as he spews out crap verbatim that he had to read for class.

Fracking has been around so long, if it was a hoax, it would have imploded long ago.

If it ruined water wells and blew fire out of my sink faucet, that would have happened in the 70s as we've had wells at least since then and even before that in the area. And they've never quit, the wells that is.

I can tell you this much RE does it work or not.

Wells have to be X feet apart and off property lines. I'm not sure of what those distances are these days as they have changed at least a few times IIRC.

We had an existing well. X pressure... fairly consistent as it was not brand new.

Drilled a well on the neighbors land. It came in and was producing. They often did that for a bit, to see, and at times frack crews were hard to come by. So it produced for a bit of time, I don't recall the exact amount of time, and our well was fine.

We were curious since it was basically across the fence the minimum distance.

Then what I think was a few months later they cleaned the well and brough in a crew to frack it. They did that, and the production upped a fair amount. But in the process, ours basically died the day they brought the well back on line after the frack.

Took a bit of time, I don't recall exactly, but then it was amazing, the pressures between the two wells almost exactly equalized themselves. And both were producing and as far as I know, are today a bit too. Dno't have the close relations with the neighbors we used to as the folks died adn the kids are way off, but I do get a bit of info from time to time.

Close enough, of an example of one, to tell me fracking works.

And if they ever frack ours, and the production ramps up I"d expect to double verify it works.

been fracking here since the 50's.....only problem to the water table was from a casing that busted, back in the 50s, which would have happened no matter what cause it was done wrong....60 years of fracking up here and the only phug up had nothing to do with the process

This will shut Browneye up.
He can't refute real life experiences but I bet that he's Googleing his ass off trying to prove you wrong Jeff.
TRH is a boil on the Campfire's ass.

I wish more people understood fracking and how it works and the actual area impacted, and the production increases and reasons for that.

It's pretty much wasted time here to explain all that.

But rest assured that it works, and works well.
The guy that claimed it's a hoax is as full of schidt as a Christmas turkey.

But, he may have liberals throwing money at him so they can use the false science... Truth really doesn't matter to them.

always cracks me up those that think fracking is something new to be feared....its been in use for longer than most those beotching have been alive....

LMAO

Nearly just shot beer out my nose. Thanks.

That's unkind and demeaning towards boils, but I get your drift.

TRH is a hoax...

I can see that I've provoked a great deal of anger by asking this question. I was actually just interested in cogent counterpoints to the economics argument Keiser was making. What is it, exactly, that makes you all so touchy about this topic in particular? Do you folks work for the industry? Have stock in it?

cause if you had one iota of sense you would know the whole idea is stupid.....but cause you lack the ability for critical thinking it seems to you to make sense.....

I'm not touchy about it. I don't even mind you asking...

I just think most folks would rather believe the spin that's put on something, rather than check it out for themselves.

FWIW, it's pretty hard to fool petroleum engineers, geologists, and more importantly...the guy that writes the checks into a $2M frack job on a well, if it doesn't work and return their money post haste.

It would be even harder to fool them all a second time. Not to mention thousands of times.

As they say, why reinvent the wheel? I figured we had some smart folks here at the Fire who could provide the counterpoints to what the man was saying. I'd never heard that particular argument from an economics standpoint before on this particular subject. On its face, unless the man's making stuff up, it seems compelling. I did get one such response, which I was appreciative of.

Define hoax Keith. I gotsta know...

full of chit on every topic.

Three years ago I rode my motorcycle from one end to other on Rt6 east to west in Pa.
Only time i've seen that many Texas and Alberta license plates was when I was actually in, either Tx or Ab.
Drilling rigs,dump trucks,tanker trucks,seismic trucks.and lots and lots of white pickup trucks.Every hotel and eatery was full.
I had made that same trip back in 2006 and the activity level from 06 to 2011 was just off the charts.

A guy I shoot with is a oil field engineer with 48 wells in north central Pa. under his supervision.Hes been at it for 30 years.I asked him the difference in technology between now and back in the 80s.
He says its night and day.
Production is up.
Bigtime.


dave

Even on topics that are about being full of chit?

This thread is full of cogent counterpoints to the economics arguments Keiser was making.
Full of ground truth.

Just a question, wouldn't you expect a short term loss for a long term gain?

But the question being raised regards the extent to which the proposed long term gains may be illusory, a product of billions of dollars in Federal tax subsidies and near zero interest rates. Also, how many years of production do each of these wells, once drilled, provide? Some sources I've read say five years is average. Not much of a "long term" potential for making up losses in that, if true.

If you are going to ignore the fact that it works, and worry about length of use, never mind that wells fracked here in the 70s are still producing today, and worry about if they are working the system, then IMHO its time to stop.

I work the system the best I can each year.

Anyone that doesn't is a fool. IMHO.

You take any advantage you can to keep as much money/make as much money as you can and "get away with it".

You and I and large companies are just on different scales so to speak.

Increased production of oil varies in time by the geological area.

Some hard rock areas that have been fracked will offer longer times in increased production. Some shale areas are shorter.

In the case of shale, once the well has diminished, the rig can come back to the pad, go down the hole and drill horizontally in another direction, frack that area, and enjoy the same return they had from the original production.

You look up fracing yet TRH?

About a 1/3 cost of a productive well cost.
From leasing the land to production.

Why did that old boy just pick on the fracing part?
What about the drilling part?

"Fracing" searches get redirected to "fracking."

Yeah. Fracing is the correct term. But Fracking has become the new "Kleenex" of facial tissues.

We forgive him, poeple from fl. don't know proper oil terms just what MSM does. Sorry TRH, shouldn't have sent you to Wiki.
https://www.rigzone.com/training/insight.asp?insight_id=319&c_id=4

Thanks, but I've been roughly familiar with the process for a while now.

Good on the knowledge.
Now why is this old boy just picking on the fracturing part of the leasing to drilling to production of an oil or gas well?
Fracing is just one part of many in the process and expense of a producing well.

Oh, I know the MSM has made it a hot topic so it's bad. Only way to make the news for this guy. Pick a hot topic and go with it.

No you are not. You don't have the first clue about it. You are too stupid to understand anything that has to do with the petroleum industry. You've proved that over and over again.

no chit, the process has been around for over half a century, used by billion dollar corps and mom and pop drillers alike.....the results are measurable and not some abstract thing....if he knew anything at all about the process the video would have been nothing but comedy for him as it is intended for someone that has ZERO clue about the process....

Has Keiser ever ran a large oil company?

Not according to his Wiki page. The only large thing he's ever run is his mouth. Which seems to be enough proof for Browneye.

well got called back in to the Hoax, 7 wells to do, another 10,000 or so on top of my salary. gotta love this hoax.

Like you were with reading EKG's?

If you haven't noticed already, this is the root of 99% of your ignorance. All books, no experience...

It reminds me of a certain head of state.... hmmm....

Like his deep knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures...

And masons

Damn, fracking Masonic jews!

Didn't realize there was such a strong orthodoxy on this issue here at the Fire. It's been educational. Questioning even the economics of it generates as much anger as questioning our nation's subservience to Israeli objectives in the Middle East. Quite a hot potato.

When you ask completely retarded questions you deserve to have your azzz handed to you. I think rattler is right....you seem to be more of a regurgitator than thinker.

no just once again you prove you are incapable of believing anything unless there is some sort of conspiracy theory attached....your scared of your own shadow so everything some how, some way has to be out to get you.....your a phugging idiot incapable of actual thinking....as we have said if you knew ANYTHING about the process like you claim you would know the whole process is 100% measurable....there is no false economy in any of it, they use it because it works and works very well....

Research petroleum geology.

Some folks think that the oil is just sitting in a large bubble or lake.
The formation it is found in has a bazillion holes called vugs.
Think sponge structure,they have to bust them and connect them to get the most oil to move.

Seen many core samples and one thing they had in common was a lot of little pockets.

Are you really this ignorant?

What level of citation and evidence do you require to debunk a completely baseless hack whom you cited in the beginning?

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VY34PQUiwOQ[/video]

Interesting video, but they guy makes some silly claims. Still the numbers aren't adding up, but my first observation is that it's just one set of numbers; and obviously that doesn't tell the story.

I'm sure all these companies are just lining up and slitting each other's throats so they can lose billions; we see that all the time in private industry.

Seriously, there's another side to the story.

Huh?

another guy who hasn't a clue and no experience.

One of my company's product lines is lab equipment for testing the properties of fracking fluid & proppant sand. If fracking is a hoax, that "hoax" has damn sure been a gold mine for my company for several years now! And, it's been a gold mine for about half of our customers as well!

This "hoax" has certainly survived the test of time and heavy scrutiny better than the global warming hoax!

There's scant little of what could be correctly termed "private industry" left in the United States. Most industries are in bed with government/banking to one extent or another, thus the capacity to generate revenue for the participants absent real profits. The general public takes up the slack with inflation and taxation.

Yep, he stepped over a line, there, didn't he?

Some of us don't care the questioning part, but when how many that have been around it for years tell you its part of the formula, as much so as building a house but not putting wires in the walls, then putting in receptacles and switches and light fixtures, then connecting power to your electrical panel, but wondering why you have no lights(oil) well lets just say, what more can you say....

I like Israel and its people. Have nothing against Jews either.

Dont' much care for radical muslims though.

No, he was incomprehensible.

Is Hawk's World a Hoax?

GMAFB.

he is coming to the parrots defense.....if anyone else had posted it he would be on the other side of the argument....he defends TRH even if it gets to the point he has to look like an idiot to stay on TRH side of the argument....

I read the first paragraph as Kevin stating the guy is deliberately misrepresenting the issue by only offering up part of the story.

The second is facetious.

The third is a conclusion.

That's my take anyway.

Coal fired power plants' changeover to nat gas ain't all regulation related either. The economics of fracking have made this possible and the future projected costs of nat gas is that it will be down for some long while due to ample and growing supply.

Then, there's also the move toward nat gas powered 18 wheelers where, presently, 75% of diesel from imported oil goes to.

The cost of fracking is getting cheaper with each well drilled due to economies of scale and greater understanding of the various shale formations and the best methods. All shales are not created equal.

In Hawks's defense, he just threw it out there for discussion.

If his postings in the past are any indication of why he threw it out there then this was for anything but a discussion.

YMMV, hw.

The oil/gas industry is a commodities business that generates new wealth. We in Montana know that to be fact.

That's what happens when one walks on eggshells while trying to communicate his thoughts.

I see you've avoided my question. What facts and citations to you want/need and will you accept to debunk the horsechit you posted originally?

Are you trying to say something?
Is it possible that there's something pertinent to the discussion that you started? If so, say it.

So far, one poster here contributed some cogent thoughts about what I posted (which was an economics question, not a technological one). He said it would require opening up some company accounting ledgers to analyze it fully. That seemed to me a perfectly valid response.

Why would the one guy that said have to look at the books be the best answer?

I mean folks here have told you how the process works, that its required etc... and that it increases production rates and lenght of production.

To continue to question it beyond that, would be meaning you'd have to question about any process any company does to make money.

WTF, if they found a way to finance it such that it makes it even more profitable for them, then I"d say they doubled their goal in many ways.

I guess I didn't lay the sarcasm on thick enough. My point is that the numbers are clearly cherry picked, and all they tell is income vs. outgoing; nothing else. Could the difference be that Fracking is turning out to a be a very profitable business, so they're all expanding like a wildfire in an effort to make even more money?

And private businesses aren't exactly lining up to lose money. The hosts statement of "it's based on the budget" is the most ignorant business statement I've ever heard.

I think that you have been caught in a little lie here Chris.
You must have said many times that this is purely an economical question.Lets have a look.

keep digging your gonna hit China before long....damn man, it is a technology question.....only way it would be an economics question is if the technology didnt work....it works, that is why they do it to increase production to make more money....

Would you care to answer my question? What facts/citations do you need/want and will you accept to debunk that horsechit you originally posted?

I think the poster I referenced above had it right. What we'd need isn't accessible.

Well, in that case, feel free to spew any kind of nonsense.

The following in required to analyze any publicly traded corporation.

You would need to understand GAAP, Generally Accepted Accounting Principles.

SEC accounting principles.

IRS accounting principles.

For international companies you would also need to understand, international accounting principles and every country's GAAP, plus every country's version of SEC accounting principles and revenue collecting accounting principles.

There are international forensic accountants trained in this field who usually have a doctor's degree in accounting that understand this stuff which the clown you posted doesn't have.

Oh and I almost forgot the publicly traded LLPs that all oil and gas companies form to spread the cost and the wealth.

This is not an easy field to understand by the lay person.

Wrong. You've never stated what facts/citations you want/ need or will accept.

You don't need to analyze a publicly traded O&G operator. There are loads of independents that do the exact same thing, including fracing, that the big boys do. It ain't rocket science anymore. Thanks to modern tracing techniques, directional drilling, $80+/bbl oil, dry holes are rare here in the Basin.

Use this as a ballpark, but it won't be far off:
$6M cash outlay "to the tanks"
100bbls oil daily
75bbls net to operator/producer
$7500 per day income, not including nat gas, so ballpark it at $8000 per day income
= $2,920,000 annually
2 year payout

There are just as many, and likely many more new wells making 300-2000 bbls/day than 100 bbls/day, but you guys do the math.

563 drilling rigs currently running here in the Permian.
They aren't stupid.

no no no all the oil is pulled out of the ground by big multinational companies, they control everything

I can see this topic is a very emotional one for you.

Not emotional at all. I don't have a dog in the fight. I do, however, know that it isn't a hoax and that is easily proven.

You cannot or will not provide a straight answer nor what you need/want/will accept as evidence. That is rather telling.

You feel that I've not answered your question as you'd like. That must be very frustrating.

I thought that you stuck to economic only on this topic.
Are you practicing up to be a Shade Tree Psychologist?

You have not answered it directly at all, and continue to obfuscate. That is a typical ploy by political hacks when they are out of their league and want to make a point in contradiction of facts. I'm not frustrated at all; and I am certainly not afraid of facts as you certainly appear to be.

I actually posted in search of a very specific set of facts, i.e., those that might either confirm or refute the argument made by Keiser. I'm sorry you've misunderstood my purpose.

You continue to avoid answering the question. What facts/citations would you need/want or accept (I suspect the latter is more important than the former if you believe that hack in the first place)? I doubt you'd accept anything .gov or .com. What about .edu or .org? Domestic and/or foreign? Any other restrictions/qualifications? That's about as plain as I can make the question.

you, Sir, are wasting your time.

As evidensed in the "Holocaust didn't happen" thread, when handed his ass, TRH resorted to "I'm Mr. thread moderator", and simply bantered for rebuttals and whatnot to his assigned direction.

If you are expecting to engage in a discussion guided by someone else, you are mistaken.

He will not engage in someone else's guided debate, because he knows the ass handing will be dished out, once again.

He finds it hard to look his dog in the face under those circumstances.

I was hoping for cogent responses to Keiser's economic argument. Nothing more. So far, I've received one response that was on point.

I'm not sure how I can make that any clearer. If you don't have that, why do you feel compelled to post?

It's pavlovian, much like when discussing Jewish swindles.

I have it and can provide it. I asked what you wanted/needed and will accept. You refuse to answer that question. It appears that there can be only two reasons for that: 1) you don.'to understand the subject enough to even know what you want or need, and/or 2) you won't believe or won't accept anything that dispels the crap spewed by that hack (and obviously the lies you have convinced yourself to believe).

You don't want facts, and you don't want discussion. You want to believe in a conspiracy that doesn't exist becomes it confirms to your worldview. Have fun with that and the mental masturbation that stems from the same.

I'm afraid you're mistaken. I don't have a dog in this fight either. You're making a huge and unfounded assumption that I'm "all in" with the Keiser position. I only said that I found it compelling, assuming the facts he laid out were accurate.

PS Your question No. 1 makes little sense to me, since all I've asked for was a refutation. That can take a multitude of forms, not just one that I can imagine in advance. I've given you one example already of a response that I found cogent. What made it cogent was that it first established that the answerer understood the issue in question, and then responded that the information needed to refute (or confirm) it isn't generally available.

Here's a hint: his facts are as inaccurate as Hussein Obama's "facts" on essentially any issue.

You found it compelling because you want to believe in any conspiracy that comes down the pike.

Did he mention a conspiracy?? I must have missed that.

He didn't; you did.

OK.

Exactly.

Have a nice evening.

There is, assuredly, a Hoax participant in this discussion.

I rarely if ever have a problem with 4ager. Something about this topic tweaked his nose, is all.

You do sometime have that effect on folks, Hawk. grins.

Not intentionally.

I joined this forum to respond to this thread. The referenced economic expert is simply ignorant of what hydraulic fracturing is and why it is done. I will try to explain with facts. I have spent my entire adult life producing oil and gas in the gulf of mexico.
Oil and gas is trapped in rocks beneath a layer of some kind of impermeable layer of rock. It isn't in a cave or void in the ground. For oil and gas to be recoverable, the rock it is in must be permeable. It means that oil and gas can flow through the rock.
When a well is drilled into oil and gas bearing rock it must have a way for the hydrocarbons to move toward the well bore.
Fracking is simply making cracks in the rock to improve the flow toward the well bore. Fracking has been a routine part of well completions for 50 years.
The best new fields in the US that are currently being developed are in shale. Shale has very low permeability, without cracks in it almost no oil and gas will flow to the well bore. No oil means no money.
I work in deep water in the gulf. The cost of frack packing a well is a fraction of the total cost. But it enhances the flow rate and protects the wellbore from collapse.
If the referenced expert knew what he was talking about he would have said " Only a fool, would spend the money to drill an oil or gas well in tight rock like shale and not frack it."
This is a simplistic explanation and is true.

Explaining the process of fracking doesn't address Keiser's economic argument, but thanks for contributing and welcome.

Welcome to the site Hogwild.

I like the simplicity of your summation.




Don't know how long you have been lurking before joining, but if you have any amount of expertise, prepare to have it challenged in sometimes the most heinous ways.

you will need these:

You guys might as well beat your head against the wall it will give you the same head ache as conversing with the real dove eye...

I just laugh at TRH. We have a guy on Russian TV talking about the expense of fracing a well, a small but needed part of the well. Just laugh cause it doesn't matter what the answer is he will find something that doesn't meet his standard.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding. I already know the process is technologically feasible. It's been proven that for decades. I'm not, therefore, looking for explanations of the process.

Keiser made an argument based on economics. If you don't have a refutation of that argument, there's no reason for you to respond to this thread. Not to say you can't. Just that any other kind of response will be off-point.

So far, there's been one on-point response, but even he admitted that it fell short of a refutation, but made a very good explanation as to why.

you are always off point...so what's your point?

Just laughing away.
Is laughing at you off point?
Your one on point is your backer.
Without the tech, you have no expense.
A house without wires will work, but with wires shelters in a better way. That was talked about way up in the thread.

The problem is your dealing with people who's skulls are less permeable than shale.

suffering out here today, can you believe what they force us to eat out here.

Holy FRACK, that looks good.
it's noon, here and a crappy sammich.
Thanks for the torture.

Poor fellow,hope you pull out of that situation ok.

Well, that explains the gravy stains on your truck seats.

and you keep missing the point that the whole process is measurable and not an abstract therefore its been proven economics of it work from day one.....course that lil fact keeps whistling so far over your head you dont even notice....

I already gave the dolt the economics and he totally blew it off.

The whole argument is goofy, it's one set of numbers. When you see numbers, they should make you ask questions (that's why we measure things). But the video just took the numbers and without any corroborating evidence just TOLD you what you're supposed to think about them. That's the state of "journalism" today.

And the whole thing about they make a % of what they spend? What a moronic analogy; who in the world is this guy?

It's a goofy video from talking heads trying to tell you what to think. If you choose to let others do the thinking for you, then that's your right.

Sadly, it's all true. What they really did was hollow out big caverns and fill them with cows and are only feeding them fermented corn. They use the fracking as a cover against animal cruelty.

You sure their gravy stains?

Thinking I might be on the wrong end of the pipeline.

T bones tomorrow

How many times has Hawkeye found a turd on Russia Today, thrown it on the floor and invited the campfire to refute that it's a turd?

Really, why does anybody keep falling for this?

aint falling for anything, dont start work til Friday afternoon so might aswell entertain myself once again proving what a moron he is....

Not around as much anymore (busy=less time/tolerance for idiots). So I probably missed it along the way. What do you have lined up? Whatever it is, congrats.

George

just a couple commercial flooring jobs with glue down carpet....some quick decent cash

Hope all is well, you certainly have been missed

have my stepsons doing a 1200ft wood job for me back home.

nice....i need to figure out what im doing....have an elk hunt planned for the first week of rifle season in October but after that im not sure what im doing

I like the road runner. There used to be one at a friend of mine, In Arkansas, that would get in the cab of your truck a look around, if you left your window down. I enjoyed it every time that I saw it. miles

You know I"ll be honest, my life has been so upside down lately I did not make time to look at the video. Probably like many. I mean its 30 minutes almost...

This morning I stopped to look at it. Got 2-3 minutes deep.

Wow. Its about UK. So who cares?

2nd it keeps bringing up the point that "they" spend more than they make. Other than .gov, IF that was the case, "they" would all be broke shortly.

We know thats not the case.

RE profits, all I can say if you drill a bigger hole... fracing, you recover your costs quicker.... If you can't cover costs and make a profit you won't be around long.

RE fracing damages... again we are not UK, but here locally, as well noted, its never caused any issues... I'd think something would have popped up locally since its been around here all the time for 35 ish years so far...

Gonna have to google keiser some day and see if he has any thoughts on solar and wind power too.

you forget rost, all the companies drilling for oil ar big multinationals that can play the shell game with money

Guys, guys, guys, just because companies have been doing it for decades and continue to spend the money to do it doesn't mean it isn't financially viable.

Just ask some kook on you tube.....

Or Florida

Just heard on the news this morning that the level of US oil importation from foreign countries is at its lowest level since 1991, due solely to the dramatic increase in domestic production from fracking.

Let's all hope this big "hoax" continues!

so far today we've drilled out 19 plugs since 6 this morning.

Dammit its not cost sustainable.

It's a global ponzi scheme!

Keep up mister...