I've seen a bunch of videos where civilian knuckleheads and regular citizens alike are taken down by officers and it seems like the police officers always yell "STOP RESISTING"!!!
Is it something that the police are taught to do when they start taking someone to the ground or is it because the officers know that they might be recorded on a picture phone?
Most of us will automatically rebel against anyone that starts assaulting or taking them to the ground. It's a natural thing to do. It's fight or flight and the Law knows just as Psychologist do,that we have it imbedded in our brains that a struggle WILL happen.
I guess I should have ask Pat or Blue the last time I hung out with them but I'm a little curious about it.

Why does everybody have to be taken to the ground? Do handcuffs only work after being thrown or tackled to the ground?

Honestly, yes.

You're taught to give directions to the person. We like to say more normal stuff like "stop fighting" or directions on what we actually want them to do. Like give me your hands, or whatever it is.

It all comes from case law. Juries in the past didn't like when they saw cops fighting people without saying anything. As in "maybe if they told him to stop resisting he would have."

So yes, we are taught to give directions. The whole Stop Resisting thing has become cliche, so we teach to give orders in more normal language.

As for taking people down, yes, if the fight is already starting it's better to take them to the ground.

It seems natural to keep moving when one or more people are beating you with a club, but that seems to be the excuse to continue the beating.
Add to that several people shouting conflicting orders and it's pretty hard to know what's expected.

For the record, I'm referring to legit arrests. Not BS beatings that happen from time to time.

Sure, it can get confusing and chaotic. But fights usually are. The better option would be for said bad guy to not fight at all. But a lot do.

Remember, I'm talking about legitimate fights with legitimate bad guys.

99.99% of all cops out there would much rather make all arrests they need to without a tussle. I know it's contrary to what the media and Internet would have you believe, but it's true.

Usually if the subject is resisting arrest he will probably try to run. Taking him to the ground reduces his chances of escape as well reducing his ability to fight the cop.

A lot of criminals know the game and if there is no chance of escape will give up pretty quickly. Though lately a lot more of them, especially young ones, want to fight. I do not want to fight. I try to reason/talk them into the arrest. But my technique does not make the evening news.

Every day you don't make the evening news is a good day.

I guess that watching police beat someone's ass while yelling "STOP RESISTING" just seems like Bravo Sierra.
Why is it necessary? Is beating someone while yelling that make it alright?

Why do we see so many video clips of people that are not armed or resisting in any way get smash-tackled to the ground? Even women. Can't the police just put the cuffs on the person nice and calmly?

Sometimes the person is even on his knees or in the process of laying down on their stomach and the police officer still smashes them into the pavement face-first.

If they are resisting, or armed, or on PCP or something, sure, do whatever is necessary, but otherwise I think many times the officers seem to be unnecessarily rough. I say, treat the non-resisters the same way you would like to be treated.

Sorry. I thought we were having a serious conversation. Never mind

How should I react to that?
If you think that I'm bating the police then you are as big of an idiot as the last cop I saw on youtube beating on a fat guy while simultaneously screaming for him to stop resisting.
I guess you are part of the problem then. "Never mind" was the only play you had.

I posted an answer to your question. A serious no BS answer. Your response was nothing more than baiting for another "us vs them" thread.

Seriously, I was hoping to have maybe some intelligent conversation about it. But look at your response to what I posted. "Is beating someone while yelling that make it alright?"

Of course not. And you know that. Everyone knows that. But by posting that, you were looking for someone to try and defend it and make it look like all cops are bad.

So how are you supposed to react to that? Sad I guess. Sad that it was too easy to see through your BS.

Evil sucks. Whether it wears a uniform or not. I find it disheartening that so many "men" in America can't see that. Or refuse to. It should be an "us vs them" fight. But the "us" should be all good men regardless of a uniform or not. And the "them" should be all evil men, regardless of a uniform or not.

So I guess I take back the never mind part since I did respond. I'm open to a real conversation. Just won't be baited into any conversation where reality is ignored.

You must have mixed me up with someone else. I'm not a cop-basher. Kinda sucks that I even have to say that.

I'm curious... Have you ever uttered those words while taking someone to the ground?
"STOP RESISTING"!!!!!

Been covered already. They ( LEO's) are taught how to beat someones ass properly within guidelines. They are taught the correct way to pile drive someone to the ground. How to cuff them, stuff them, fill out the paperwork, etc. Just like every job that's complicated there is training, proceedures, lawyers, etc.

I smell what you're stepping in. There does seem to be a lot of over zealous actions by LEO's getting in the news, on youtube, etc. I will never justify poor actions, wrong is wrong, and the LEO that is out of line should be held accountable. There shouldn't be nearly so many "justified" shootings, beeting, etc. I too feel that LEO's are way to militant at times.

I'd HATE to have to do that job. I'm not very tolerant of some of the stuff that goes on. I'd want to taze and beat some ass often. I get the reason behind it. Doesn't make it right, but I get it. The thing is there are many good LEO's we never hear about, many actions that are handled without issue. It's a relatively thankless job.

And of course we all know the media shows good cops on tv and in the papers too right. Its their job to post every dirty tid bit of bad policing, it helps their ratings.

That pretty much sums it up.

" fill out the paperwork, etc. "

No matter how cooperative a man is while being arrested, the arrest report is apt to read "aggressive and hostile".

It's designed to make you more amendable to accepting whatever plea deal the P A offers you and your lawyer wants you to take.

"The jury ain't gonna like hearing that you were aggressive and hostile....... you might be better off taking the deal...etc."

Yes, if the event is not captured on video and onlookers are kept back they can still be used to claim they heard the perp was resisting. Here is a good example, that only went south because it was unknown a car with camera rolled up:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/video-shows-officers-beating-motorist-diabetic-shock

So where have you made the news going against these "evil" police officers you have allegedly went up against?

Thats kind of what I think.

Just like the military. How often do you hear about the troops doing good things for folks in the schittholes we are fighting in? Its always the negative stuff outweighs the good by at least 50 to 1.

Cops have a tough job. I havent had a bad experience with one. But then again, but I dont give them a reason to beat on me.

The new catch phrase that police are using during confrontations is: Don't make me fear for my safety

A buddy of mine who was a police officer told me about 25 years ago that cuffing anyone is a very difficult situation to do alone when they refuse.

-Ken

Actually, most tv programs/movies show police accurately by portraying them as all knowing and heroic. Same thing with military personnel. Sounds like you 2 need to watch Youtube less and mainstream TV's and movies more.


With you there on perps always have it coming. Here is Oklahoma Capt. Brown advising the "ladies" who are whining about getting raped by OK officers to start obeying traffic laws if they don't like the treatment they brought on themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DYNdqwx3LU


With any luck we will get rid of Posse Comitatus before you retire so you can get in on that too.

I had plenty of bad experiences with them when I was young & had a bad attitude. Once ended up with a couple of broken ribs.
Give them the courtesy & respect that you would any other person & you'll likely never have a problem. I heartily agree that they have a tough job to do & know for a fact that I'd never make it as a LEO...too many cameras nowadays...

You would do fine. You still won't get punished for what happens, just sometimes have to suffer the indignity of not seeing the perp off to prison when your claims of what happened are shown as not having happened on the video.

I dont watch Youtube and I retired over 3 years ago.

Treat people with respect and you will be treated the same way.

Exactly! Sounds like you have had to commit a rape or 2 when someone didn't treat you like you wanted to be treated!


So why are you claiming video shows police looking bad? The only place that happened is on youtube. Mainstream tv news knows it relies on police for news so they don't step on those toes like the POS who put cell phone videos on youtube that run counter to officers' descriptions of events.

Here this guy doesn't do anything the trooper tells him to and keeps advancing on the officer and get shot over it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

Time to ignore another troll!

Brother Bart doesn't support you like you want him to.

How many psychiatric disorders has your shrink diagnosed you with, tak?

Worthless F'ing loser.

How many times can you cut and paste that line?? LOL Since you and I have the same opinions on the same people and groups, what is your problem with me exactly? Are you trying to win someone over and think that my being like you is competition for you in some way?

And there it is. To tell the truth I've never had to be arrested or taken to the ground, amazing how easy it is to live a life without drama.

Heh, I have had to arrest guys the size of Gunner500 and believe me, if one is going to give you a hard time of it,you do NOT wait for him to make the first move. Let Gunner punch you once and let me know how THAT works for ya. Hell, the hardest people to get cuffs on can be a female 90 lbs soaking wet. But they GOTTA go. It might be a warrant arrest or a summary arrest, but HEY are the ones calling the tune. Once I had to make the arrest I made the arrest. THEY made the choice on whether they went easy or hard. I got to be pretty good at not losing fights. Losers somehow manage to not look so pretty.

The police still don't have the "run away" option.

It sure is effective for cutting back on pain relievers.

So if someone is larger than you at what point do you start hitting them so they stand no chance of getting the upper hand with you? Is it only when you are arresting them or when you are doing an asset forfeiture also?

Anyone have a link to a medical reference which states this as fact?

Yep, Marshall Kenyon had to arrest the slut once Marshall Fox said to make it so...no going back. If the slut didn't like what was happening she should have taken her case before a judge instead of resisting the officers.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/21557505/cover-up-alleged-in-clark-clark-family-court

Well that didn't work. Try this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Its easy to get all worked up over the thought of thug cops.

But then I think, when was the last time I had a problem with a cop....never. I've even been cuffed a few times in my younger years.

Yep, like this woman who was interfering with official police business:

http://www.examiner.com/article/texas-cop-arrested-after-knocking-out-innocent-woman-s-teeth

Somebody accused TRH of being Sherp the other day. Who is it, TRH or TAK? I am both confused and a little put out that nobody has accused me. Then again I do the Bristoe sock puppet so I guess that being Sherp would be a little over-the-top.

Why do you like to molest little boys, Sherp?

It's like lawyering, banking, insurance, politics, or any other trade meant to confuse, dominate, or otherwise take advantage of people. Throw the language, set the trap, cover thine ass, reel in the chump.

Pretty sharp response right there. I'm surprised you responded at all.

One thing I have noticed about all the popo I have spent time around, they can sit in the same room with a bunch of people railing on in regards to how abusive cops are, and sit quiet as if they have no opinion on what is being discussed.

When I ask "how can you sit there and listen to that schitt and not respond", they all pretty much seem resigned to the fact their response would make no difference, so WTF, why bother? It's there, it's never going away, so why waste the brainwaves.

Yes. I've seen that over and over again on TV police shows. Don't you have a TV?

I'm white. Been in two circumstances where i could have been shot by police. Once, along the highway in the dark, the officer was reaching for her gun. I dropped my breaker bar put up my hands and said whoa. While clenching my cheeks!!! My point is don't break the law. I hadn't. Use your head and do not escalate the situation and things will get better. Not obeying the cops will make it worse, always. There are procedures that may work it out later, but resisting will always cause you to lose.

I hate the [bleep] that feel a need to put handcuffs on everybody they meet for "their protection". Wearing handcuffs is a painful and humiliating experience. Most folks ears and mouth work just fine without handcuffs.

I hate getting in these conversations because I see both sides of the equation.

lol

Spot on. Had to respond. Tired of the cop bashing. When driving a truck hate to see dot pointing at me. Always have been glad that they were out there working. The roads would not be safe without them. The other guys need to be watched.

I don't, much to the chagrin of you and others here who keep approaching me.

So are you working a job that necessitates you being in federal court houses where officers are using their 5th Amendment privileges or is it some sort of hobby for you?

So why was the officer trying to shoot you if you hadn't done anything wrong?

Maybe you should reconsider our wording.

I didn't read the whole thread.

But all I have to say, is if you have to be TOLD to stop resisting, then maybe you get WTF you deserve if you are that damn stupid.

Get yourself in that position and well.... I dunno.

Amazing I've been here almost 50 years and never managed to get into an arrest or even beating from LEO yet.

Maybe you need to read his post. He claimed the officer was going for their gun then claimed he had not broke any law.


Or are you saying police routinely shoot innocent people?

You missed the one I shared where the officers were having to yell it at a guy in a diabetic coma so he wasn't able to do anything other than lay there. It seems to be a common thing for officers to yell when the perp isn't resisting, but good people like you and I are apt to hear it and repeat that we thought the person was resisting based on what we heard at the scene.

I don't think anybody here has much sympathy for true lawbreakers. That said, we have seen video after video of abusive police practices. If you have somebody who is laying a beatdown on you when you did nothing wrong you have reason to fear for your life and you certainly have the right to fight back. I don't give a damn what the law says. It doesn't matter if it's a cop or some "protester" from Ferguson. If you think you're gonna be beaten to death, what exactly do you have to lose? You can mealy-mouth it all you want to just like, "why not register guns, the government will never take them because we have the 2nd Amendment,". That doesn't change the facts though. The Nazi's beat and killed plenty of Jews who didn't resist.

I'm not saying all LE are like this, not by a long shot, but the "broad brush" which has been spoken about so much on here, paints both ways.

That was certainly a classic of modern policing. I remember it well. Maybe you should post it again for edification.

It's a hobby. I try to figure out which coffee joints the local cops hang out in, then every week or so I move a booth closer and try to buddy up to them. Buy em a few cups, pretty soon they'll wave when you see them around town...you want to talk about bonafides!

Not many members could make that post and be believed.

Congratulations'

Thank you.

Well they like groupies so I am sure you are popular once they learn you will do anything they want.

Still doesn't explain how you are in federal courts so much considering that is the only place an officer will not comment when people are whining about police abusing civilians.

Liars, thieves, and child molesters. All in the same boat. You being a liar and all, means you like to molest children.

I mean, that's the same logic you bring here. So, it must be applied to you.

So, why do you like to touch little children? Don't you know that's evil?

Is that why so many cops shoot peoples dogs? They no comprende?

Oh, I can think of a few more, Civilian Review Boards, City Council meetings.

Sure they do. As long as you're not poaching deer nearly anything goes.

Now what have I lied about exactly? Since I support the same thing you and the officers here support are you saying you are lying and you are engaging in child molestation?

No, they don't run in to much trouble in those venues so they would feel free to say anything they want without worry.

If a cop walks up calmly to someone and just puts on the cuffs, that's not going to make it to either Youtube or the evening news.

Have those cops in Colorado gotten off the hook for shooting that elk yet?

Are you saying the police like making the news so instead of dealing with someone in a diabetic coma like civilians would deal with them they have to beat on them awhile?

Where do you live?
Go to any UC town

It lives at the "Y" with the rest of the "village people"

In a liberal town, you think this dude is kept busy?

I fish with one of the guys who had to sit in on these bitch sessions, before he retired, it made for some funny stories out on the boat. Some of the things people feel righteous indignation over would leave you scratching your head.


http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/departments/police/independent-police-auditor

There ya go again. Another lie. A pathetic dude with no sense of integrity can't help but lie. Same kind of character you find in child molester's.

Are you certain that you wouldn't be happier over at NAMBLA?

I was under a truck, in a wide spot of the Pa Tpike, in the dark working by lights of passing cars. She pulled up behind me and didn't turn on her lights. When she walked up the side of the truck I didn't know who she was, she didn't know I was there. I rolled out and stood up with a 2 foot bar in my hand. She got startled, then I got got scared. Put my hands up dropped the bar. She turned out to be quite cute. Did not turn into a pron flick.

Did she have a pair of clean underware in the trunk of her car?

Mine almost got ruined. My point in an earlier post was use your head, do not be stupid you will not get shot. Another time was pulled over and cop ask for paperwork. Put my hands on wheel and told him about the gun in glovebox. No big deal. But before he let me go he thanked me for that. Said "neither you nor I need that kind of surprise at 4:30 AM"

Well, Barkoff is a P.I.

Poaching deer was overlooked a few months ago as long as one had a cool WD-40 thread.

Yep but its popular to speak of the probably less than 1% incidents and paint them like they are everyday and all the time...

I guess I"m lucky, we have good police where I live. But then again I wouldn't live in any kind of city if at all possible.

The thing is that they are nearly every day anymore. I have no idea what the stats would be if they were available and you could discern them, as to how prevalent this stuff was in the past. Lots of LE think that tazers are a lot better than say, blackjacks, which used to be common. I have no idea. All I know is it pains and scares me to see some mentally unstable kid who was seemingly not a danger to others begging for his dad with his last breaths as he dies from being beaten by police. It further pains me to see some diabetic dude tazed because he's so out of it he can't follow some barking dog's orders and then the cop giggles psychotically when told of the man's affliction. It goes on and on.

I have no sympathy for scofflaws like the Ferguson bandito or the cigarette outlaw in New York. It's too bad they chose the path they were on and it's good that decent LE took them out before they themselves hurt somebody. The crap like yelling "stop resisting" while doing a beatdown on somebody who doesn't deserve it is disquieting though. Whether you believe it or not, it could be you or me or worse yet, one of our kids.

I fear the government a whole lot more than scumbags on the streets. The government is truly organized crime.

I know that simply due to the media access, and the media HUNTING for stuff like this, you can find one every day.

The LEO, IMHO, has come a LONG way since say 50 years ago when beatdowns were a bit more common and covered up, swept under the rugs so to speak.

Today its hard to "get away" with anything.

And then you consider how many contacts are done EVERY 24 hours, vs finding an incident or two a day.

As always I"m not in favor of bad things happening, and no entity or person is perfect, but should try to be as we all should every day.

And yes, it could be me in the next five minutes. It will never be our kids though. But it damn sure could be yours or others.

I suspect that due to the media and the prevalence of cell phones etc... that the numbers have to be down instead of up.

There it is, a little common sense goes a long way. Spot on Jeff.

Sorry I'm late...been hunting. I suspect "stop resisting" is a suggestion made in training in the last several years. I usually said something like "Put your hands behind your [bleep] back, you [bleep] [bleep] or I'm gonna [bleep] kill you."

An old Sgt once told me that the bad guys don't really pay attention to what your saying unless you put a "[bleep]" in there somewhere.

Communication 101...speak to the dumbest guy in the room.

I always figured you for the "Go on and move [bleep], make my day" kind of guy...

I suppose my point is that it doesn't matter what you say if the situation justifies it. Or not.

Hmm, never thought of LT like that... but think that LT will do what LT needs to do, without much thinking about who GAF

Thats the whole problem, if the damn LEOs would learn to say "PLEASE" stop resisiting... everyone would listen right away....

I believe that. And, it would probably translate better youtube then someone just yelling "stop resisting" over and over...Probably a whole lot more effective too.

What hasn't been mentioned is how the COP'S attitude sometimes changes once the cuffs are on a man who hasn't resisted the arrest and cuffing.

I personally know of a few County Mounties who used to delight in trying to provoke a fight with a guy they had just cuffed with no quarrel whatsoever.

A guy I knew well, a BIG guy, used to get arrested fairly regularly for some drinking related offense. He ALWAYS wound up beat all to hell and it was ALWAYS after he was cuffed.

Yeah, I know....... it don't count since I can't post a video of it.

Can't imagine why.
At some point a light bulb should go off -shouldn't it?

Some people are slow learners...

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/kang-chun-wong/

Apparently the 11th time is the charm...

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/court-police-departments-refuse-hire-smart/

Link to something interesting

Strong as an ox and damn near as smart.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/santiago-hernandez-nypd/

Been around enough cops in my past to not believe that BS for a second. All the DS's in my past I spent time with lived for a beatdown.

They ain't planning on retiring from the business then.

Cops work for the government. They're funded by the taxpayers, but they work for the government...either local, state, or Federal. They're gonna do what the government tells them to do, regardless of what bull$h!t it is, or how much it tramples on the rights of ordinary citizens. Even if the government tells them to disarm the citizens, the cops will do it. "The politicians make the laws"..."it's our job"...those are just excuses the cops use to justify doing what the government tells them to do, again, regardless of what bull$h!t it is, or how much it tramples on the rights of ordinary citizens. And the cops are more than willing to do it. The majority of local and state cops are also tax collectors with a badge and a gun. Their mission, first and foremost, is to generate revenue for the local and state governments that they work for...under the guise of fighting crime. We already know that government is rotten to the core...that they're oppressive and tyrannical...it just amazes me that seemingly reasonable men are so willing to do as they're told by the government along these lines. And to hear cops gripe about the oppressiveness and tyranny of the government, while at the same time they are doing a lot of the governments dirty work...is hypocritical, comical, and disgusting collectively.

What are you going to do to stop this tyranny?




Travis

The one I find comical is the "hand on the head" when the perp is getting into a rig. I'm 6'4" and have been getting in and out of rigs for near 70 years and not once bumped my head. Is there a reason for that practice or is just another technique for establishing supremacy?

It's likely unstoppable at this point.

Realizing that the American Republic is dead, and that we owe its bloating rotted corpse no loyalty whatsoever...nor those who represent it or work for it...is an important step in the enlightenment process.

So you're just making everybody aware of the tyranny?



Travis

You support the same things I do so not seeing what your problem is with me. The only people I support a free pass on concerning child molestation is when police officers engage in that behavior which is the only time you support it as well.

It's just another topic of discussion on this forum...along with coffee percolators, shaving preferences, arthritis medicines, ugly men's sweaters, and Christmas ornaments with grown men's pictures on them.

Show us the report from one of those meetings where an officer has been incarcerated for speaking their mind.

So.... Ol' Eddie gets in a fight at a beer joint parking lot, acquits himself in fine fashion, and then some stalwart defendants of justice show up and arrests everyone with blood on their knuckles.

Eddie submits to the cuffing and takes the ride with 'em.

Soon as they arrive at the station, but while he is still cuffed, the taunting begins, and when Eddie 'splains what sort of cowardly sons of bitches they are, out come the sticks.

Y'all are cool with that.

So none of y'all ever got drunk or ever got in a fight in a beer joint parking lot.

Either that , or you're hypocrites of the first order.

I'm just curious because I just spent a week in what I would consider a fugged up communist state.

And if I lived there, I'd be one vocal sumbitch.



Travis

All anyone has to do is the same thing you do. Support the police no matter what they want to do and everyone will be happy. Indicate offense at something they have done(like raping a young lady) and there will be hell to pay.

That's EXACTLY how 99% of the people I work with view the police. The general, law abiding, tax paying, working public ain't as dumb as the gov't and their paid enforcers would like to believe.

There is difference between dumb and ignorant.

Never got in a fight. Pop told me it wasn't worth it.

have been drunk more than once though.

Still have not been arrested.

And if I was arrested, I'd basically agree I should not be beaten up just cause.... OTOH pop would ask me exactly how did I manage to get to a place where I got beat up to start with..... yep, I know.

And to think folks actually believe this. Sure some cops would confiscate guns, but the majority won't. At least not rural cops.

As to cops being tax collectors, when was the last time you handed a cop money?
They cite you for a violation, the judge doesn't have to do anything about it. They can toss it.
Want to blame someone for hte money part go to the court system then.

At least you should learn how it really works.

Cops have been arresting folks for violating unconstitutional gun laws in NYS for decades. What part of "shall not be infringed" do you think it is that they and the lawmakers don't understand ? While it is true that the majority of upstate county sheriffs have publicly stated they have no intention of enforcing the SAFE act, the state police surely will and when the time comes they absolutely will attempt to confiscate by force. You can take that to the bank. They are not loyal servants of "the people" nor of the US Constitution.

And another one...

Who the phug said ANYTHING about incarceration? You asked where officers have to listen to grief and criticism, I showed you, so now you up the requirement?

OK, I see how you are now.

Remember this?

"...we had to taser the unconscious guy we found lying on the ground, because he wouldn�t obey our commands to get up.�

Most cops don't care what happened to this kid. And most other cops will be supportive of the cops who did this.

When someone decides to resist arrest you take them to the ground because it is the safest way to subdue them. If you left them on their feet they could use their largest muscles, their legs, to resist. On the ground they can't use them.

The problem here isn't people who are resisting. It is people who aren't resisting and get taken down anyway whilst the cop is yelling at them to quit doing something that they weren't doing anyway. A variant on this is when somebody is doing nothing wrong and they are assaulted by police.

How many people have you arrested?


I have 15 years experience arresting and putting people into handcuffs. It's been my observation that there is three main types of reactions of arrestees. 1 the mushy: these are the people who start to sob, try and barter their way out of the arrest, or wven start bawling aboit the arrest. The second is the passive resister: these types may tell you "no" while pulling their hands away, almost going into a fetal position, and often incorporate traits of both extremes. The third type, the active resister is the one who's body language, and vocalizations tell you he is likely to fight. Any type can become any of the others very quickly. Personally, at the first hint that someone is going to be combative, I take them to the ground, it's so much easier to control someone there than try and control a kicking, screaming, punching individual

Here are yet some more symptoms. No willingness to acknowledge problems, unwillingness to listen, lack of understanding.

sherp?

You were more lucid when you were arguing gay rights.

I'll ask again. What experience gives you any expertise on how people should be arrested?

Don't worry about him. I am sure he also complains about officers raping women they pull over while you are comfortable with using that as a penalty for traffic violations, drug offenses, or the woman just not giving the officer what they deem as the correct level of respect.

Well yes. Since you aren't an officer that means you shouldn't have any opinion on anything they do.

Unless you agree with their actions. This is particularly important to remember if you are ever on a federal jury when the officers need your unquestioning support more than ever.

I'm trying to figure out with over 15 years in public service, LE/Fire/public service/EMS, and a close working arrangement with the hospital emergency rooms, that I can only recall one (1) case of a post apprehension beat down or excessively aggressive arrest, yet it seems as commonplace as a herpes blister the way some folks go on about it, and with even less concern.

None of the officers in the videos find fault with what happens either, only cop haters. It isn't wrong or excessive if an officer does it.

Yep, if they are in a diabetic coma they could come to and if they figure out they are being beat on they could really use those legs to retaliate against the officers so that is not a time for half measures. Put them down and put them in to a regular coma via bludgeoning. If they don't like it they can always complain, get the officers on paid suspension till it is found good, and possibly get a settlement from tax payers.

right, shatp.

So does that mean I was a hater when I noticed an excessively aggressive arrest?

Seeing that my duty, first and foremost, was as a paramedic, and taking physical insult to the human body as a serious concern, but only recalling one instance where an arrestee required medical care related to his arrest, I think its safe to say either things changed dramatically over the past decade + OR optionally, you are over-dramatizing.

The latter being a huge issue, because the situation definitely needs adjusting, but your efforts focus it in an entirely unproductive manner.

Interesting that in your listing, you allow no spot for the compliant arrestee who doesn't cry or whine.

But it's MORE interesting that all it takes for one of your arrestees to be taken to the ground is for you to receive ANY sort of "hint" that the guy "might" be going to start resisting. In short,anyone NOT crying is at risk of being thrown to the ground when you are the arresting officer.

A literal reading of your post explains exactly why a cop would be shouting "stop resisting" while assaulting a person he is arresting.


And that is the reason for the thread.

Thanks for clearing it up for us.[ unless what you wrote ain't really what you meant, in which case the thread can continue ]

I see your point. Cops "whupping up" on folks they have arrested is OK as long as the person arrested doesn't require a trip to the E.R.

A few open-handed slaps to the face of someone who is not resisting is not a problem in your view, I guess.

Never seen open hand slaps at cuffed suspects.

What I am saying is that the level of disrespect that is being foisted as commonplace in the LE community is totally foreign to me.

As much as you want to tout that you have seen it happen, and I am not disputing that, I am saying that I have not seen it happen.

Slapping around, beatings, etc, did not happen in my presence - did not hear about it happening despite avenues of gossip from other cops, other paramedics, other rescue personnel, and yes, even hospital personnel (which is why I brought it up, as another avenue of information, not a gauge of "whupping up")

So who's right? You and your experience, or me in mine?

And if the truth is somewhere in the middle - how is the lopsided BS of these posts supposed to help?

I will say that if someone is not resisting, then they do need to be treated fair and square.

I find it hard to believe that this happens very often.

But I do believe it, as expecting police to be 100% perfect is ridiculous. Find some harm done then punish the offending officer. Just like anything else. Easy enough.

But I also suspect that most folks taht claim they didn't resist, probably did.

And I wouldn't expect a few slaps to the face, I'd expect to be face planted to the ground instantly and in a bit of pain until the cuffs are on.

It's likely that most new cops are idealistic about a cop's role in the community. They probably have all sorts of personal "lines in the sand" they just KNOW that THEY will never cross. Lines get blurred quickly in the real world.

IF an order were given to confiscate firearms at gunpoint, each individual cop would enforce it, or not, based on which course he thought was safest for him at the time.

Officer safety IS paramount...... right?

exactly.

I watched a lot of folks burn in cars, people drown, and allowed guys to shoot or knife folks until they tired themselves out for arrest.

"So who's right? You and your experience, or me in mine?"

The good thing about experience is that it just exists on its own. Judgements about the experience are a different matter.

You and I aren't basing our conclusions on the SAME experiences, so we are not likely to agree. Surely you don't fault me for giving more weight to my own experience than to your experience [which is actually a non-experience in this instance].

I've been killing deer for 60 years and never have killed an albino deer.

That doesn't position me to doubt your account of having seen TWO of them.

I'd just figure they are more common where you hunt.

Those words re officer safety have been agreed on by our forum cops for years. Wasn't me that made 'em up. Go argue with them if you don't agree with the statement.

Rookie cop in Arizona just got shot dead on a domestic violence call. Multiple shots. He had ASKED the murderer to allow him to pat him down. Respected the man's rights, acted sensitive. Got killed. Kinda high price to pay for some of the jimokes here to feel very smug about. Yeah. Officer safety. As far as a gratuitous beating, they are actually pretty rare as we want the judge and everybody else to put their focus on the criminal and what he/she did rather than have everyone licking their chops to fry a "brutal" cop. I have been kicked in the head by a long legged black scum who I arrested for trying to kill a bartender by using a knife. He NEVER stopped fighting. He STILL lost the fight. So what if he didn't look very pretty afterwards.

You're use of the phrase was accompanied by its justification of cops taking firearms under orders.

I found it as stupid to the situation as you probably found my examples.

" He NEVER stopped fighting. He STILL lost the fight. So what if he didn't look very pretty afterwards."

THAT situation has not one damn thing to do with the topic of this thread.

And.. what happened to the rookie in Az. IS an ABOMINATION. Any other comments I could make about it would sound mitigating.

But, I'll add this comment to my post since it is apropos:

I've suggested to several Tx DPS officers FORTY years ago, that if the Dep't would make it policy that in EVERY traffic stop after dark, the officer approach the vehicle with his revolver in hand, pointed at the ground.
If it were standard procedure, the public wouldn't feel threatened by it.

City cops should apply the same rule to ALL domestic violence calls. A man doesn't need L E experience to know how dangerous those situations can become without warning.

When a cop is SENT for, the dynamic reverses and you will find me giving him the benefit of every doubt.

When he initiates the contact, I see it differently.

We've seen that policy used to justify all sorts of excessive force in lots of discussions right on this forum. And it's not that different from the "just following orders" excuse for doing something that's insulting to all right thinking people.

And it's appropriate in OUR conversation in this sense:

In something as drastic as confiscation of firearms, especially in the "us VS. them" mindset of L E in this country at the present time, a rural cop might decide his interests are better served by siding with "the folks".

An NYPD cop might elect to follow orders. For the same reason.

I O W ...... an individual cop will have had ample opportunity to demonstrate his dedication to the Constitution, especially the 2A, long before the confiscation order comes down. [Personally, I don't believe it ever will, on a State or Federal level.]

Despite protestations to the contrary, I don't see a lot of examples of that dedication.

Wouldn't bother me if they came up with handgun in hand. Just in case I"m a bad guy.

But thats why both my hands are on the steering wheel in plain sight. With the window down a bit. I don't fidget etc.... When they ask for DL etc... I tell them where it is, and that I"m going to reach for it etc...

But again if I go through all that, and they decide to arrest me for whatever reason, because I look like the description of a suspect etc... I'll get out as told, and let them cuff me and off we'll go.

I won't be running my mouth about them being stupid or whatever, its just life, and we'll be in and out and fine.

And if I"m abused in the process, slapped or whatever, then I"ll simply press charges and file a suit as should be done whenever that 10% or so of society acts out. Of all society.

Be nice if we could weed the bad out of every job. Period.

BTW the new dog has found 8 deer at last count. And continues to amaze me with his nose. He is having fun too. Not sure how happy he will be come end of Jan or so when he has to wait until October... will have to see if we can find some pigs to blood trail...during the year.
He certainly is not great at it yet, but at this point I think he will make a good if not great trailing dog. Had his first run in with a turkey the other day. Was not sure about that. I missed the neck at 143 yards by just a hair, so we had to go down and get him and finish him off.

Only thing I don't like is he wants to chase or trail just about everything around. Makes me a bit nervous, would prefer he do just the wounded trials and leave the rest alone, but its bred into them I suspect.

The government is nothing more than organized crime on a massive scale. The worst threat that every American faces comes from his/her own government.

"but its bred into them I suspect."

Most all good curdogs will run "fast game" starting out, just like even the best bred young coonhound will tree possums. I've found it best in both situations to neither encourage, nor discourage it. Once they figure out which action pleases you, a biddable dog will take THAT action.

When they take off after deer, I just go hide from them and make them find me with their nose.

Some give it up quickly, some take longer.

Back to thread topic:

I'll just say that I, personally, have never been mistreated by a TEXAS cop DURING handcuffing. Of course, it's been over thirty years since the last time, but it always went like this with DPS troopers:

"Mr. Williams, I'm gonna have to take you in. Please face away from me and put your hands behind your back. I know you are not going to give me any trouble, but I'm required to put handcuffs on you."

Once they turn you over to the County boys, things can change quickly.

County boys from 30 or 40 years ago had some bad reputations. Even around here.

But the "quality" of the local LEO has improved a lot, at least around here, that plus cameras all over the place...

Good to know on the dog. We are afraid to let him run off the long leash yet while trailing. He is so nuts and full of energy, I just don't want him running the baby goats or getting loose and far enough away to get a road or such. Evidently he was run over when he was a puppy to start with.

Never realized Cur could be such good dogs. Now if he will outgrow chewing on everything sooner than my labs did it'll be all good. LOL.

The good thing about curs is that they like to chew stuff like stumps and bricks.

Yep. I've come home lots of times to find that I had gained several garden hoses. Unfortunately, they were pretty short and had no threaded ends. And my good long garden hose was missing.

Shout out for the County boys:

I had a Tarrant County Detective come get me to take me from a City jail to their place. As soon as we were out of sight, he pulled over, got out, came around to my side, and unlocked my cuffs.

I was getting a little concerned , but he just re-cuffed me with my hands in front, saying he knew I wasn't going to give him any trouble. Before he took me into the Tarrant County jail, he reversed the deal so my hands were behind me again.

Not all cops are idiots.

I recently got a ticket for no seat belt, he could have hit me with more I suppose, but I called his shift supervisor within a couple of days and told him I appreciated the way I was treated after the officer stopped me. We discussed how important it is that officers in interactions with citizens are courteous these days in lieu of all the negative MSM publicity. Hell even when they do it correctly by the book they're painted as bad guys!

but he was a gray hair like me, in fact the shift supervisor even responded "we've a bunch of seasoned guys here (read experience and age) on our force here" It was the University police force btw.

I think age has a lot to do with it, and I also think motivation has a lot to do with it. And experience. Young guys that see a fellow officer get roughed up or disabled during a fight, pretty much make up their mind it's not going to happen to them.

I know when I was younger, it didn't take much to get me to dance. As I've gotten older there's still a bit of frog left in me as it turns out, but it's not as prevalent.


despite their best efforts to prevent it, I'd say every force ends up with guys on the force that are there for the wrong reasons. I.e. they want the power that comes from having a badge and gun.

add youth to the mix and you're gonna have problems occasionally

and that's what makes the news.

my guess is some of the young guys would/could learn from their mistakes and go on to make pretty decent cops with tutelage from the older hands, but in these days of media scrutiny and cell phone cameras they're not always going to get the chance.


I've had a run in with a bad cop or two, and it sucks big time.

but the majority of officers I've made contact are decent men trying to do an often chitty job, dealing with drunks, stupid folks and occasional true bad guy. Don't know how they do it personally. I don't have the temperament for it.

Some of y'all seem to be resisting the rest of y'all.

Put your hands behind your back please. Or I'll break 'em both.

lol talking about the county LEO from Texas, when I first rolled into Houston, I was around 20-21, brand new pickup, long hair, smoking dope etc. Had Illinois plates as we'd come from Chicago.


we missed a turn on a country road and did a U turn, oops red lighted.

gun drawn, get out of the car face down on the road, "if I find one grain of marijuana you boys are going down"

fortunately my pard had stashed the pot down in his crotch and no self respecting redneck back in those days was gonna touch another man's junk.


but he was tickled to find the good switchblade and brass knuckles I had on me. they were both quality items.

he pocketed those and didn't even write us up as backup pulled up.

still miss that lil switchblade

and as a whole the Pasadena Police force was one of the nastiest most corrupt forces I've ever dealt with (Pasadena was where Gilley's and the Nesadel were)

they had a racket going there providing security for the bars with off duty police, wore their whole uniform but the badge

thumped many a guy with a nightstick or sprayed em down with mace/pepper spray and then call one of their on duty buds and haul em off to jail

friend bought a bar there later and got shook down pretty well by them. he'd turned them down to provide security and hired his own doorman/bouncer

within a few days he got about 9 shots of 9mm in his front door whereupon his bouncer went out the back door never to be seen again and the next day the cops came by to see if he'd changed his mind about what security they could provide.

nasty bunch of mofos those Pasadena police ime, in the late 70's

What a silly chicken$h!t thing to write somebody a ticket for. "To protect, and to Serve".
The community is much safer now as a result of that.

Don't judge all Cur Dogs by those bow legged Goat humpers that come out of Texas.

ID Curs are sweet as honey and never chew on anything.


Well,,, almost "never".


As far as the tired old cops and robbers debate goes.
Just like time it's self, they're both changing and neither one for the better but I guess I'd still rather have the Cop over for a beer.

true but he did me a favor, I pulled out a lil abruptly at one stop sign and a car was coming down the hill where normally there's no traffic, cop said the guy had to hit his brakes, and while it wasn't that close I should have probably waited for that car to go by.

then I did sort of the same thing going across the main thorough fare, line of cars coming so after making my stop I raced across the street to avoid waiting for all that traffic.

I'd put in a 12 hour day already and had to pick up my kid from work, and was hauling recycling and trash (transfer sites for each are across the main road from each other)

he asked if I was wearing a seat belt and told him "no since I'd dropped our recycling and was just headed across the street I didn't bother"

gone my whole life without wearing a seatbelt most of the time, it's a hard habit for me to develop just driving around town.

but it's now the law. btw I agree with your statement that our gov't is the greatest threat to our freedom and security fwiw

but also realize we need police forces, and they have a chitty job to do.

does pizz me off to find on occasion no one has time to investigate a burglary but they do make time to write me a No seatl belt citation, second one I've gotten.

The thing about Curdogs is every owner makes his own Breed Standard,

But...... there was a Plott Hound involved while YOUR " CUR" was being built.

Mine are nice too!

A tich of Red Bone way back when too.
We do that to breed the desire to follow cows around out of em.

That is all.

What's her name?

Pat.

Originally Posted By: gitem_12
Originally Posted By: EthanEdwards
The problem here isn't people who are resisting. It is people who aren't resisting and get taken down anyway whilst the cop is yelling at them to quit doing something that they weren't doing anyway. A variant on this is when somebody is doing nothing wrong and they are assaulted by police.


How many people have you arrested?


I have 15 years experience arresting and putting people into handcuffs. It's been my observation that there is three main types of reactions of arrestees. 1 the mushy: these are the people who start to sob, try and barter their way out of the arrest, or wven start bawling aboit the arrest. The second is the passive resister: these types may tell you "no" while pulling their hands away, almost going into a fetal position, and often incorporate traits of both extremes. The third type, the active resister is the one who's body language, and vocalizations tell you he is likely to fight. Any type can become any of the others very quickly. Personally, at the first hint that someone is going to be combative, I take them to the ground, it's so much easier to control someone there than try and control a kicking, screaming, punching individual

*******************************************************************************************************






Interesting that in your listing, you allow no spot for the compliant arrestee who doesn't cry or whine.



****Gene, I sort of expected most would include that person in the first type.. That said most of the "i'll go peacefully" type usually do some form of whining.********

But it's MORE interesting that all it takes for one of your arrestees to be taken to the ground is for you to receive ANY sort of "hint" that the guy "might" be going to start resisting. In short,anyone NOT crying is at risk of being thrown to the ground when you are the arresting officer.

************ If you go back and read. i stated any hint of being combatitive, not resistant, and no those terms are not interchangable*********

********* no, I prefer to make the easiest arrest on all parties as possible, however if you look and act like you're gonna run/fight/ kick/scream/bite/any other action I may not mention, then yes i'm going make it clear thati'm in control and get you into cuffs as quickly and safely for both of us as possible. If that means taking someone to the ground to gain control over them so be it. They had the opportunity to place their hands behind their back and be compliant. If at all possible i'm going to minimize the opportunity for them to blind side/sucker punch me, or make a play for my weapon

A literal reading of your post explains exactly why a cop would be shouting "stop resisting" while assaulting a person he is arresting.

Shouting "stop resisting" is a training thing. It's said to gain conpliance, it's also said loudly so that potential witnesses can answer truthfully under oath that they heard the officer tell the defendant to stop resisting

*********** no one has any use for bad cops. But as said many many times on these posts. Bad cops are the exception. You yourself yourself that "county cops" 30-40 years ago were rough, IMO policing in genereal 30-40 years ago was a totally different game than now, I think cops today are better trained and better screened during the hiring peocess than any time in History


And that is the reason for the thread.

Thanks for clearing it up for us.[ unless what you wrote ain't really what you meant, in which case the thread can continue ]

*********** many on here seek cops that act more like robots than human, in an assumption that the cops will then be perfect, i suspect if those folks got their wish they would find themselves a lot less happy then than they are now

I tell every new guy I train, that the most powerful weapon he carries is discretion and he should become extremely proficient in it's use

lol

SOB, that made me laugh out loud in the office. Now the gals are staring at me.....

Randy, Pasadena... in those days... for a long hair dope smoker... wow I"m amazed you got out alive! LOL. Those days folks probably got ripped off or beaten on a daily occurrence.

And here we have folks saying its getting worse... I don't see how really... but I could be wrong.

All these cur pics and not a one like ours.... maybe he isn't even cur...

Whatcha got? A Blackmouth? Mine and Blue's are Cartahoulas.

I'm sure its party mutt, but from pictures, sure looks like blackmouth to us, sans the blackmouth....

Oops yeah, sorry no camo on deer hunting picture... sure I"ll get grief for what I wear hunting too next. LOL

BTW the best trailer I ever saw was a catahoula. That cracked eye crazy dog was unbelievable in S Tex brush. Its what made me want to see if this one might have an ounce of effort in him, since he was a stray for us anyway that got a new home. My Mom won't call him by his name, tiger, she just calls him lucky...and she is right.

You've gotta bring your A-Game to get one on Pat. I'm gonna go say the Pledge Of Allegiance and slap my wife on the butt now. I'm on fire.

Bkue's dog looks like a bona fide old time quality Leopard Cur instead of an old time Catahoula.

Yours looks like a ................. reindeer?

But it's MORE interesting that all it takes for one of your arrestees to be taken to the ground is for you to receive ANY sort of "hint" that the guy "might" be going to start resisting. In short,anyone NOT crying is at risk of being thrown to the ground when you are the arresting officer.




And that is the reason for the thread.

Thanks for clearing it up for us.[ unless what you wrote ain't really what you meant, in which case the thread can continue ] [/quote]

Now you are getting it, learn to read people, get the jump, or have a short career. Wait too long, get your ass kicked a few times, observe an additive change in yourself.

Like I said.... A Curdog Breed Standard exists only in a breeder's mind.

A fella named Carnathan in Tupelo Ms. used to sell a lot of "Blackmouth Curs". But Brindle, Ringnecks, Flop ears, etc. have NEVER been characteristic of BMC.

So... OL' Howard just started a separate registry for pups that come out like that. He called 'em Southern Curs.

So.... pups out of the same litter might be registered as different breeds.

Y'all may think that ain't important, but I was a fact witness in a Lawsuit down in Rusk County between Carnathan and Randy Wright.

When you get $$$$ as the primary motivation in breeding dogs, the quality of the dogs goes downhill quick.

Like I said....... I read his post LITERALLY. I wish more folks would read mine thataway.

So he is big. He is drunk. He was fighting, has been repeatedly arrested and is at least verbally combative. I don't see how questioning Eddie's version of politely submitting makes me a hypocrite. He sounds so credible.

I suggest Eddie's real problem is, first and foremost, ole Eddie. How many arrests are needed before, for the sake of anyone who might love this guy, he rethinks defining what it means to 'acquit himself nicely'?

'acquit himself nicely'.

Taken in context, it means he prevailed in the fight in the parking lot.

BTW.... If a couple of guys voluntarily go outside in a parking lot to fight each other, why is that the cops' business?

Are you a cop?

Reason I ask is 'cause I use the "watched users" function here to identify the forum members who are cops. It puts a little magnifying glass next to their names when they post.

I'd hate to leave you out if you belong.

And.. up to now... Just about everyone who focuses on Ol' Eddie instead of the cops asinine behavior has one of them little magnifying glasses next to his name.

Added: It wasn't "Eddie's version".. it was mine. So... make it a hypothetical [it's not] and assume Eddie offers no resistance. Are the cops still justified just because he's a drunk?

I know what you meant and only have a problem wit hit in that it seems to keep on happening to this guy.

No, not a cop or even close. I am conversing- not screaming or anything and will work on coming across better. I don't think we are really so far off from each other and yes it makes a difference if it isn't Eddie's version.

I do hear what you are saying and agree cops need to be held to high standards and don't condone abuse. They are just people and you get whatever\whoever you get on any day in any mood they are in. I remind myself to respect the authority if not the man. I never give them a reason to beat me though some have irritated the sh*t outta me. I have surprised a few with blatant honesty and that seemed to carry some weight. They get lied to constantly and it has to be tiring.

I still think Eddie, or anyone who gets arrested and finds it just a normal day needs a look in the mirror before his problems will go away. I hope that happens. He and the cops will be better off for it. It won't excuse either but will avoid repeats.

By the way- you got me curious about Curs now. They are new to me.

Some truth right there. ^^^^^^^^

Here's one that looks like that yeller dog.



She had the same Brindle Sire my Brindle dog has and a BM dam.
She had allot of hunt in her but the Parvo got her. (And yes, I had her vaccinated before some loud mouthed know it all chimes in.)

RIP Penny

I didn't think you were a cop.

Most cops have revealed themselves as cops before they make very many posts. They have their little code words,"on the job", "lacing up" etc. that they use so they don't inadvertantly badmouth one of the brethern.

Yeah... I'm sure we would get along fine if our trails cross.

I bred Blackmouth Curs for about 20 years and learned a lot about the other Cur breeds in the process.

I'd start a thread about them but it would shortly be inundated with cut and paste crap off the internet.

A good WORKING dog don't care what color he is, In fact, the black in BMC refers to the INSIDE of the mouth, but most puppy mills focused on a black mask.

But a good breeder learns that good dogs are produced by breeding REAL close up. When you do that, and cull properly, you're gonna get consistency in color. Over time, that became "yeller" [not to be confused with yellow]

The unquestionable trademark of the BMC is his working style. He is a front end bay dog as opposed to Heelers, Border Collies and such.

He shares this attribute with Lacy Curs.

And both breeds are marked by athleticism. They have to be extremely agile to survive the work they do among range cattle.

They are silent on track but should have really good mouths once they bay their quarry.

What makes for a good cowdog makes for a good hog dog as far as BMC are concerned.

I'd read, even the cut and paste...

On street fights, I don't have an issue with em much. But I'd sure think the smarter thing to do is have a house fight in the back yard.... much safer all around...

Can't say that I ever saw a street fight here, close a couple of times but never made it

Yes, if you did not like the way an officer did something to a civilian then you are a cop hater.


The only thing that has changed in the last 10 years is the video recording. We need to do away with it so we can get back to the officers' words being the only thing that matters. Take any claim from malcontents of decades ago and it can be used to narrate the incident with a modern day video"victim" (better, and once upon a time, described as the perp). The only silver lining is officer's are still rarely punished due to this technological demon, but unfortunately so many of their collars are unjustly let go where as in years past they would be incarcerated for years on the word of the officer. We need to get back to that time of high morale for police.

Wow.

Just when I was firmly convinced your posts were meant to do nothing more than stir up sh*t you post something worthwhile.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you do this?

Because he's a bigot. He hates cops for some reason.

I don't think he hates cops. He's just old and crotchety and bitter about his misspent youth.

Truthfully, it makes it easier to see which cops actually just outright condemn some of the REALLY bad cop behavior without doing the shuck and jive "bad video angle,etc." bullschitt.

It happens more often than you'd think, but it's mostly the same ones over and over.

Some, like Maggiedood and DINK, have never seen a cop do ANYTHING they couldn't justify. And they don't believe non-cops are qualified to pass judgement on the actions of the Police.

And when a magnifying glass shows up on other type threads, I can get a better idea if they are sort of OK in spite of their line of work.

That's about it.

You'll never know if I'm against or for illegal actions carried out by LEOs. I'm telling you right now I condemn LEOs who go beyond what is acceptable and necessary. It's against the law, violates the person's rights and makes the jobs of his/her coworkers harder to perform. I've said that before but apparently you're convinced I'm lying. Fine. I've been staying away from these threads because it's always the same posters opposing one another. It's almost as if there's a template that everyone follows regardless of a good, insightful point made by either side. In fact, unless you're a criminal, citizen or LEO, we shouldn't BE on different sides. But, you've had your mind made up about me a long time ago and nothing I say will make any difference. With that said, there are times you are going to believe an LEO did something criminal, and I will honestly believe the LEO did what he/she did for a valid reason. I base my opinions on my experience as a Texas LEO, any stories linked and on the discussion as it progresses. I.e., Ethan and I were at one another's throat 5 years ago; today I value his opinion. I can understand what he means and I can imagine myself in his shoes, and find myself agreeing with him more and more. However, you are intractable so I quit bothering with trying to get you to see things from another viewpoint long ago - you can't and you won't.

Thanks Magnumdood. I appreciate it.

I also will say with no hesitation that to sum it up, Magnumdood is one of the good guys.

Congrats, you just surpassed Hawkeye for board loon of the month of December.
Your prize is a 108 channel police and emergency scanner, with adjustable gain and clutter reduction.

Keep vigilant, it's up to all of us.

Fair enough.

Well, to sum up the original topic:

Most agencies train their cops to keep stating, "Stop resisting" in case the subject can't hear and/or any recording devices can confirm the officer did say it. It is a case law reaction.

However, case law does say you have the right to resist unnecessary force.

Cops are allowed to use the necessary force to overcome resistance and make the arrest. The interesting part is how to define "necessary". It will include all the factors in the case, ie, the severity of the crime, the size of the people involved, etc. If the case is political or high profile, the cop gets screwed.

I have only had to wrestle and yell that stuff when dealing with drunks or stupid thugs. The thugs do have a lot of friends with cell phones that record video. It keeps a lot of cops in line with policy, but does put us in danger. Some one posted, "If you work in he monkey cage, expect a lot of schit thrown at you." He was right. But I don't see a lot of guys willing to do this job. There are truly evil people out there.

It is really good to hear offers of help from good citizens when dealing with the bad ones. My partner and I had to wrestle a meth crazed psycho who tried to kidnap a schoolkid (ten years old) from the front of the school. During the brawl I saw that 5 urban hipsters were filming the fight, but only one old guy jumped in to help subdue the knucklehead that put up a freakishly good fight. One other anonymous hipster called 9-1-1 to get us more help but the others were stating that they were going to sue the old guy because his actions "traumatized" them.

They can't write better stuff than this in Hollywood.

Be careful tonight. I hear you guys are expecting a party.

I miss the good ol' days when things were simpler and there was a lot less jabber...

I'd be scared to jump in, except around here where I know almost all the LEO folks from DPS on down.... I would not want LEO thinking I"m helping the thug or attacking them somehow.
Plus I"m getting old enough I"d just as soon shoot someone, rather than get in a fight... that wouldn't be good. Well maybe not but the way my body hurts most days....

I'd not hesitate to have jumped in years ago, but IMHO LEO jobs are much more dangerous these days than they used to be.

Cops' jobs ARE more dangerous now around here than they were 30-40 years ago, and - remarking on your post - ANYONE getting in a scrap nowadays is at more risk of serious bodily harm than was the case back then.

A lot of my "misspent youth" Blue referred to was in the old County line beer joints that were common in Texas. Being on the County line in this part of Texas meant they were about 15 miles from either County Seat.

Beer joints being what they were, fights were commonplace, and the Sheriff left it up to the owner of the joint to deal with 'em. The ones inside the joint were dealt with by application of blackjack or club, so most disagreements were settled outside where the owner wouldn't intervene.

There was a sort of code of conduct which governed the fights and a Cardinal rule was that the only "weapons" allowed were what you were born with.

That all changed early 'eighties when J L waded into a brawl INSIDE his place between some Mexican and White cedar hackers.He got cut"long, wide, and intentional" as the saying goes, but survived.

Allowing towns, instead of Counties and Precincts, to vote in the sale of alcohol pretty much did away with the old roadhouses about the same time.

Sheriff John Edwards kept the peace in this County for 20 years with one deputy and John never wore a gun. Those times are gone, forever, I expect.

It's easy to say that "times have changed". But what that really means is that our "culture" has changed. Even that is not accurate, since what really is different is that new "cultures" have emerged, and none of the new ones are good.

I believe Law Enforcement, in general, has responded wrongly to the culture changes. You have tried to preserve a kindred spirit among ALL LEO's which may have been appropriate in simpler times, but exists only in some fantasy world now.

Big city cops inhabit a world far different from small town cops, and their manner of dealing with the citizenry of the city may be appropriate. Perhaps a "us vs. them" mentality is inescapable in that environment.

But instead of different "cop cultures" emerging to deal with the different cultures where they operate, this "kindred spirit" has resulted in a mindset among ALL cops which is entirely inappropriate for the task at hand.

Trying to define ONE root cause of a complicated problem requires painting in extremely broad brushstrokes and espousing sweeping generalities, and that's what I've done in this post.

Curdog, the sheer mobility of people today made certain that the trouble migrates. The places with the most savage crimes and highest rates have a very high indigneous population. When one has to roots or ties, the people in question act FAR FAR worse than if they had roots in the area. A uniformity of sorts was bound to happen in the inside of police work attitude wise.

You and I exchanged PM's some years ago, so I respect your opinion, and in fact, I considered the points you raise as I posted my remarks.

But consider, this, please:

In a big city, where another cop is possibly accompanying you, or if not, a call for backup brings one fairly quickly, the "Us vs Them" mindset may actually enhance officer safety. The attitude you project and your manner of speaking, if modified to be more friendly, probably wouldn't make a damn bit of difference as far as changing the mindset of the type people you interact with.

But when rural cops adopt the same attitude and manner of speaking - and many of them have, thanks in large part to TV shows, I believe - they are creating an "Us vs Them" mindset where none existed before. And, in these rural areas, it is detrimental to officer safety as well as making it more difficult to do their job.

A cop in a rural area NEEDS the citizenry more than the individual citizen is ever likely to need him.

And he damn sure needs us more than he NEEDS a member of NYPD.

But he identifies with them, not us.

And there's your "Us vs Them".

In your typical "county line" place up to the eighties at least, you have the Sheriff's Office get a call on some scumbag that's wanted or is a known troublemaker that seems about to blow up and an officer shows up. There might be five scumbags in the joint with the one really bad one as the leader and a couple more that might jump in on the cop if the opportunity arises. Then there will be a couple of alcoholic cowboys or farmers that may have been to jail themselves but are basically all right and who are gonna jump in on the side of the cop if the scumbags start to get the upper hand. The "us vs. them" mentality creates a situation where the old cowboy just heads out the backdoor instead.

Both of these last 2 posts lends more weight to my earleir assertion. It is the Kali to Colorado migration in a nutshell. The boom town aspects of the Dakotas now. The nature of the problems migrates with the troublemakers. To be sure a lot of very first class folks move around a lot,but one RARELY hears of them fomenting violence or other really criminal behavior. Cops tend to morph along with the region they live in. Hell, you guys know there is a lot of meth cooking and usage in rural areas now and meth causes extremes by itself. In my 24 years on the streets, even da 'hood got far more violent and I had to radically change my approach just to survive.

Crack changed everything, and none of it for the better.

Thought y'all declared WAR on it sometime back?

I'm pretty sure that was the folks in Washington did that.

Crack is one extremely potent psychotrope. Three drugs are the worst. PCP(angel dust),crack and meth. The USERS get explosively violent for little descernable reasons. The entire fabric of the areas they rule changes to violence.

Given that, it seems that "escalation of force" is not a viable policy for cops.

You are going step by step to get to the threshold of "deadly force" and your opponent is skipping all the steps.


Just shoot 'em before they get there.

We didn't want to kill them we wanted them in jail. I am relieved to be retired as the violence is even worse but the rules for the force are far tighter. The citzenry is getting it right in the ass.

Hi, I'm Looking for Ray Finkle?

This thread is so..................Last Year.

Georgia Police Chief Accidentally Shoots Wife Twice

...and is placed on administrative leave. That oughta' teach him.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/wife-peachtree-city-police-chief-shot/njdyf/

Please don't paint with a broad brush folks.

With a revolver.

laffin'

I once worked with a retired Deputy Chief of Police from a very large police force and in the course of conversation we discussed police tactics. His advise was this:

1. NEVER argue with a cop; in the end, he has the last word - "You are under arrest".
2. NEVER touch a cop, even while pointing to make a point (see #1).
3. Once under arrest, he'll ask you to "Turn around" and handcuff you.
4. If you resist or refuse to turn around, he'll throw you to the ground (to get the upper hand) and handcuff you.

4 good rules to remember when talking to a cop.

He must not have been one of the highly trained ones that we hear much about.

He'll probably be on administrative leave for a little while, with full pay, while a report is concocted that clears him of any wrong doing.

A town of Madison police office was struck in the face with a handcuff while taking the woman into custody.
Last night some hussy got uppity. Get one cuff on and they get loose and start swinging, it's a weapon. Should've shot the cont.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/officer-security-manager-injured-in-badger-bowl-disturbance/30486032

The article says the report of two shots was wrong. There was only one.

"Should've shot the cont."

Yep, the cop and two security guards were no match for her physically, according to YOUR link.

Yep.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/psycho.txt

o Of all psychoactive substances, alcohol is the
only one whose consumption has been shown to
commonly increase aggression. After large doses
of amphetamines, cocaine, LSD, and PCP, certain
individuals may experience violent outbursts,
probably because of preexisting psychosis.
Research is needed on the pharmacological effects
of crack, which enters the brain more directly
than cocaine used in other forms.

o Alcohol drinking and violence are linked through
pharmacological effects on behavior, through
expectations that heavy drinking and violence go
together in certain settings, and through patterns
of binge drinking and fighting that sometimes
develop in adolescence.


o Illegal drugs and violence are linked primarily
through drug marketing: disputes among rival
distributors, arguments and robberies involving
buyers and sellers, property crimes committed to
raise drug money and, more speculatively, social
and economic interactions between the illegal
markets and the surrounding communities.