This one has legs even though its an archery kill.
[quote]Twin Cities dentist admits killing beloved lion, thought he was acting legally Eden Prairie big-game hunter says he regrets death of Cecil in Africa. By Paul Walsh and Brandon Stahl Star Tribune staff writers JULY 29, 2015 — 7:09AM itemprop RENEE JONES SCHNEIDER, STAR TRIBUNE A dog sniffed at stuffed animals placed Tuesday at the front door of River Bluff Dental in Bloomington, owned by Dr. Walter Palmer, who has come under fire for the killing of a beloved lion in Zimbabwe named Cecil. TEXT SIZE 592 1895 78 EMAIL PRINT MORE A big-game hunter from the Twin Cities found himself at the center of an international firestorm Tuesday over the death of a beloved lion in Zimbabwe, but said he regrets killing the animal and believed his guides were leading him on a legal hunt.
Walter J. Palmer of Eden Prairie, a practicing dentist in Bloomington and a prominent bow-and-arrow hunter, issued a statement addressing the killing on July 1 of Cecil, a lion that was a favorite among tourists and wildlife researchers.
“I hired several professional guides, and they secured all proper permits,” Palmer’s statement read. “To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled.
“I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt.”
Zimbabwe game officials said Tuesday that two of Palmer’s guides are facing charges in the incident and that they “are looking for Palmer.”
Palmer, 55, who pleaded guilty to a license violation after shooting a black bear in Wisconsin in 2008, said he has not been contacted by any authorities in Zimbabwe or the U.S., but added that he will cooperate with investigators. The public-relations firm that worked with Palmer on the statement said he was in the Twin Cities on Tuesday.
This handout picture taken on October 21, 2012, and released on July 28, 2015, by the Zimbabwe National Parks agency shows a much-loved Zimbabwean lion, Cecil.
This handout picture taken on October 21, 2012, and released on July 28, 2015, by the Zimbabwe National Parks agency shows a much-loved Zimbabwean lion, Cecil. More “Again, I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion,” the statement concluded.
Earlier Tuesday, the Telegraph newspaper of London identified Palmer as the hunter who shot Cecil and reported that he paid $54,000 for the hunt. The Telegraph said the lion was illegally lured out of Hwange National Park, where it had protected status, and onto a neighboring game farm, where Palmer was on safari.
Palmer’s dentist office on Rhode Island Avenue was closed Tuesday, apparently abruptly. One client showed up for an appointment, unaware of the global turmoil surrounding his dentist.
A profile on Palmer’s business website said that he is from North Dakota and that he graduated from the University of Minnesota dental school. He and his wife live in Eden Prairie, about 2½ miles from his practice. They have two children. A knock at the door Tuesday brought no response. A neighbor described the Palmers as very private.
As the Telegraph’s report and subsequent news coverage spread on the Internet, commenters took to the Facebook page of Palmer’s River Bluff Dental with a vengeance.
“You utter scum,” one of many hostile comments read. “You should be in jail, and you should hang your head in shame.” The Yelp page on Palmer’s dental practice was inundated with hostile comments, and by midevening, nearly 200,000 people had signed an online petition condemning the incident organized by an online group known as Care2.
Late Tuesday, U.S. Rep. Betty McCollum, D-Minn., urged the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Department of Justice to investigate whether the killing violated any endangered-species laws.
Chelsea Hassler, outreach director with the Twin Cities-based Animal Rights Coalition, said her group and “many outraged citizens” intend to protest outside Palmer’s office on Wednesday afternoon.
By late Tuesday afternoon, small stuffed lions had been left at Palmer’s home and dental office.
Lists 43 kills
Palmer’s kills are listed by an organization called Safari Club International, a big-game hunting group that claims 55,000 members worldwide, including about 1,000 in Minnesota.
The club keeps a detailed record book in which members display photos, measurements and other information about animals they have killed. Palmer lists 43 kills, all by bow and arrow. His list includes moose, deer, buffalo, a polar bear and a mountain lion.
A photo posted in the record book from 2005 shows him kneeling behind a lion, with his bow propped up against the animal. The book also documents with a photo that he shot an African elephant in Zimbabwe in 2013.
People familiar with the safari industry refused to comment Tuesday on Palmer’s case, but said it is normal for hunters to place themselves in the hands of hired guides and local outfitters.
Jeff Martinell of Troy, Pa., who books African trips as the owner of Luxury Hunts, said it’s up to the guides, also called professional hunters, to know the laws and regulations of a lion hunt, including whether the hunters are on preserve land or shooting at a protected animal.
“If he bought a lion hunt and they take him on a lion hunt, he [doesn’t] know where you’re going,” Martinell said. “The finger should be pointed at the professional hunter, not the hunter himself.”
Martinell also said it is common practice to lure big game with bait, apparently the tactic used in Cecil’s death. “You find a lion, put the bait out and wait for the lion to come in,” he said.
Bob Lange of rural Glenwood, Minn., has hunted in Zimbabwe five times, and once, at the government’s request, shot a lion that had killed six people.
While stressing that he is unfamiliar with the specifics of Palmer’s hunt and that he doesn’t know Palmer, Lange said the case appears typical of trophy hunting in Zimbabwe.
“If what I understand about the hunt is accurate, nothing seems unusual or illegal about it,” Lange said, “unless the landowner didn’t have a hunting permit. But if that was the case, you, the hunter, would have no way to know. You’re in the outfitter’s hands.”
Guilty plea in Wisconsin
The incident is not Palmer’s first brush with authorities.
In 2008, he pleaded guilty in federal court in Wisconsin to misleading a federal agent in connection with the hunting of a black bear. Two years earlier, Palmer had killed a bear near Phillips, in Price County. That location was 40 miles outside of the zone where he held a permit to hunt bear.
Palmer and others transported the bear carcass to a registration station inside the allowed hunting zone, according to court documents, and at the station, he falsely certified that the bear had been killed in the legal zone. Facing a maximum penalty of five years in prison, Palmer was sentenced to one year’s probation and fined nearly $3,000.
In the spring of 2003, Palmer was convicted in Otter Tail County in western Minnesota and paid a small fine for fishing without a license, a misdemeanor.
And in 2009, Palmer agreed to a settlement with the Minnesota Board of Dentistry over allegations that he sexually harassed a receptionist. She alleged that Palmer made comments about her breasts, buttocks and genitalia.
Without admitting guilt, Palmer settled and paid $127,500 to the woman, who also was his patient.
The settlement included references to his bear-hunting conviction and “substandard record keeping.”
Poaching charges
The Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority and the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe said Tuesday that a local guide and a farm owner are facing poaching charges and that they are expected in court Wednesday.
“Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt,” the joint statement said. It did not address any legal consequences for Palmer.
The statement said Theo Bronkhorst, a professional guide with Bushman Safaris, is believed to have lured the lion to Honest Trymore Ndlovu’s farm, where it was killed. Its carcass was discovered days later by trackers, the statement said.
During a nighttime pursuit, the hunters tied a dead animal to their car to lure the lion out of the national park, said Johnny Rodrigues, chairman of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force. Palmer shot the lion with a bow and arrow, injuring it. The wounded lion was found 40 hours later and shot dead with a gun, Rodrigues said in the statement.
The lion was skinned and beheaded.
The hunters tried to destroy the lion’s collar, fitted with a tracking device, but failed, the statement said. Zimbabwe authorities said in their statement that the “lion trophy has been confiscated.”
“The saddest part of all is that now that Cecil is dead, the next lion in the hierarchy, Jericho, will most likely kill all Cecil’s cubs,” Rodrigues said.
The conservation group said Cecil, recognizable by his black mane, was part of an Oxford University research program. Tourists regularly spotted his characteristic mane in the park over the past 13 years, said LionAid, also a conservation group.
In 2009, the New York Times featured Palmer in a report from northern California, where Palmer was hunting elk. He told the newspaper that he can hit a playing card from 100 yards with his compound bow and that he eschews bringing a firearm as a backup.
“I don’t have a golf game,” he said of his devotion to hunting, adding that he learned to shoot at age 5./quote]
The organized protest will most likely be sizable today due to cooler weather. I think this dentist will soon be looking for new patients or a new state.
The Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority and the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe said Tuesday that a local guide and a farm owner are facing poaching charges and that they are expected in court Wednesday.
“Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt.”
This sounds like a Safariman brokered hunt.
"Palmer shot the lion with a bow and arrow, injuring it. The wounded lion was found 40 hours later and shot dead with a gun", Rodrigues said in the statement.
Hmmm... azz shot and used others to finish the job later?
If the lion cubs are doomed and the lion population is so low, why won't the animal rights idiots save the cubs and relocate them? I'm guessing they contribute nothing to the overall conservation of lions except for hot air and finger pointing? I wonder who pays for the park and all the conservation programs including shooting the poachers selling critter parts to the chicoms??? Bet it isn't the concrete living, do nothing, never been in the woods, "animal rights" fundraisers. Liberalism is a cancer.
The guy's going to have a tough go of it. Jimmy Kimmel came down hard on him last night televising his pictures and personal information to encourage more harassment. He related the dentists hunting activity to an inability to get an erection. I know it's not going to happen, but it'd be great if Kimmel was sued off the air.
~ And in 2009, Palmer agreed to a settlement with the Minnesota Board of Dentistry over allegations that he sexually harassed a receptionist. She alleged that Palmer made comments about her breasts, buttocks and genitalia.~
The guy's going to have a tough go of it. Jimmy Kimmel came down hard on him last night televising his pictures and personal information to encourage more harassment. He related the dentists hunting activity to an inability to get an erection. I know it's not going to happen, but it'd be great if Kimmel was sued off the air.
I don't really care about the lion, or the toothy, but Kimmel bugs me for some reason. Cross eyed twit isn't really even funny. Maybe it's just that weird lazy eye thing, I dunno.
It's probably a bit of a stretch since I don't know the hunter fro Adam, but when I saw his name and numerous trophies connected with SCI and their record book, I felt like I got a glimpse of who this guy really is. Probably shortsighted on my part but maybe not.
I don't know how accurate the report is, but I read the land owner didn't have a permit, neither did the PH. And that they used bait tied to the bumper of a car to lure the lion out of the preserve. If that's true, the PH is in deep-chit.
That said, I've been around a few different doctors/dentists in hunting environments. They were the most horrific 'sportsmen' and individuals I've ever encountered that shared 'like' interests.
Never understood why attorney's get so much grief. I'd hunt with 1000 attorney's before I'd hunt with another doctor.
Looks like hunting is going to be the next Confederate flag.
anti hunters, anti gunners, anti White folks, anti Americans, lurk daily, scanning the news, looking for any story with legs, that they can use as a weapon against their targeted group.
I don't know how accurate the report is, but I read the land owner didn't have a permit, neither did the PH. And that they used bait tied to the bumper of a car to lure the lion out of the preserve. If that's true, the PH is in deep-chit.
Don't know until the whole story comes out, but baiting in LEGAL areas is perfectly acceptable, including shooting those animals that wonder off the reservation because their stomachs (or dicks) lure them away. What I've always found stupid is the reverse. If one makes a perfect killing shot on an animal and it runs INTO a preserve, you are SOL. None of this matters, this will be the hunting equivalent of the Confederate flag Witchhunt...
This is a front page story in a couple of our National papers and it really does seem as if they are trying to stir a lynch mob.
Details of the hunt as sketchy, but its alleged the lion was baited out of the Park to be shot on an adjacent hunting concession.
Given the corrupt nature of the country, its very difficult to form an opinion of whether anything illegal took place or not..
Frankly, anyone who hunts Zim is only ever a step or two away a disaster of some sort, again due to the corruption and lawless nature of the country, its Government and its people...
The guy's going to have a tough go of it. Jimmy Kimmel came down hard on him last night televising his pictures and personal information to encourage more harassment. He related the dentists hunting activity to an inability to get an erection. I know it's not going to happen, but it'd be great if Kimmel was sued off the air.
I don't really care about the lion, or the toothy, but Kimmel bugs me for some reason. Cross eyed twit isn't really even funny. Maybe it's just that weird lazy eye thing, I dunno.
I'm battle weary, a tsunami of outrage toward all hunting continues as the urbanization of the world continues to lose touch with reality...
"Late Tuesday, U.S. Rep. Betty McCollum, D-Minn., urged the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Department of Justice to investigate whether the killing violated any endangered-species laws."
If the lion cubs are doomed and the lion population is so low, why won't the animal rights idiots save the cubs and relocate them? I'm guessing they contribute nothing to the overall conservation of lions except for hot air and finger pointing? I wonder who pays for the park and all the conservation programs including shooting the poachers selling critter parts to the chicoms??? Bet it isn't the concrete living, do nothing, never been in the woods, "animal rights" fundraisers. Liberalism is a cancer.
That point about the cubs caught my attention too when I saw that some were whining about the runner-up's killing the cubs so the lionesses would come into heat and they could create their own progeny.
There are, as you write, several stupid positions is the reports. Focusing on this one lion and one hunter, whose hunt seemed pretty typical, except for the unresolved questions about licenses, seems quite wrong-headed to me.
I do understand that "Cecil" was great-looking and it would be good for the gene pool if his cubs were preserved, but I suspect that he has already made substantial efforts in that regard.
Also, it is accepted that "Cecil" (a stupid anthropomorphic idea to give such a name to a lion) is 13 years old. Given that the full life span of lions in the wild is only 10-14 years, he was about due anyway.
As for the university researchers, most respected researchers that I have followed who study other species are not terribly upset if a collared specimen is taken by a hunter. That is common and is the luck of the draw. Journalists are making assumptions that I suspect are incorrect.
Too bad that the PH et all. concealed the collar, but in a place like Zimbabwe, which I know a little about, who is to say others would not do the same thing. The rule of law is not so dependable there.
All in all, I reserve judgment on any possible wrongdoing without more facts. I surely would not rely on the British tabloids -- or US TV comedians who pretend to be legitimate social critics (if there is such a thing.)
Some of the people wailing and gnashing their teeth are in fact just hysterical anti-hunters. There are more than a few hunters however that, based on what is coming out about this particular incident, are viewing this as closer to poaching. In fact it's my understanding there's been two actual arrests regarding poaching charges in this case.
My girlfriend broke up with me when she found out I was planning on baiting a bear and then killing it. I explained it is legal in Minnesota and spot and stalk really is not an option in this terrain.
Jimmy Kimmel came down hard on him last night televising his pictures and personal information to encourage more harassment. He related the dentists hunting activity to an inability to get an erection.
Where did that come from? Why does Kimmel associate killing with sex?
If the landowner and PH didn't have permits, they'll be up a creek. And I bet the government in Zim will find something to charge Palmer with, even if he's legally absolved in the death of the lion.
I've seen outfitters in New Mexico do illegal things for hunters, and I've had hunters claim ignorance about NM game laws.
I always find it odd when someone pays a lot of money for a hunt then makes no effort to find out about a) the biology of the animal and b) what is and is not legal in the area they're hunting, but I've seen it happen a lot.
Jimmy Kimmel came down hard on him last night televising his pictures and personal information to encourage more harassment. He related the dentists hunting activity to an inability to get an erection.
Where did that come from? Why does Kimmel associate killing with sex?
Betting in the end Palmer pays the lawyers, PR firm and others way more than the $54k he paid for the hunt....in addition to probably moving his practice as someone else said.
What is unfortunate is the costs SCI and others will have to pay to remove tarnish from this event and reduce the money available to do more productive outreach, marketing and habitat help. Yes, they draw big dollars from deep pockets, but it will hurt the image and their resources.
That said, I've been around a few different doctors/dentists in hunting environments. They were the most horrific 'sportsmen' and individuals I've ever encountered that shared 'like' interests.
Never understood why attorney's get so much grief. I'd hunt with 1000 attorney's before I'd hunt with another doctor. [/
quote] There must be something about lawyers getting grief, Dick Cheney head shoots them!
No comment on the lion killing, but the good dentist got busted in 2008 for killing a bear 40 miles outside his hunting area and then registering inside his area. Convicted. I've got no sympathy for poachers in this country.
I detest poachers, and the dentist doesn't have a great history. But, it is too soon to say he's guilty of something here or if he learned anything from his previous conviction. However, the liberal lynch mob doesn't care about facts or waiting for facts to come out. Ferguson, MO and "hands up, don't shoot" is a great example of this.
Mugabe's regime has murdered countless people since he's been in power and brought the remaining ones to near starvation but hardly anyone can muster any indignation over that. Let someone shoot a fricking lion that wandered out of a park and the whole world goes nuts.
He screwed up when he didn't harvest the various viable lion tissues and sell it to labs for experimentation. Apparently those ends just the means in the eyes of lefties.
I am good friends with an outfitter that has guided Palmer several times. He told me that Palmer was fanatical about following the law on all his hunts- wouldn't let them do anything that was even questionable. I doubt he was complicit in this case. You rely on your outfitter and guide to do the legal thing in the legal area.
Boy talk about getting worked up over nothing. Left alone, male lions will fight and kill other male lions and they routinely kill all the cubs when they take over a pride. "Cecil" didn't have much time left under any set of circumstances.
All these lion lovers need to spend some time with them when the lions are hungry. If any survive, I'll bet they never give one of those lions a cute name or describe a lion again as "handsome" or "beautiful".
Bigwhoop: NOTHING good for the American Sportsmen Hunter will come from this incident - even though it occurred on the other side of the planet. Including the fact that said Dentist has given monies to "Republican candidates"/causes and he and they are being demonized for that. The incident in America involving the Black Bear poaching gives me an insight into this "ego-Hunters" mind set. He deserves disdain and a fine for the lion incident but he IS and IS GOING to suffer 1,000 fold what he deserves. He's ruined. Maybe it was a kharma thing? If I was that dentist I would exit stage left for a year or two. For his and his families safety. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
Same Ghouls who are complaining about this have no problem supports the killing of 50 million fetuses and selling the parts, Killing and decimating the Bluefin population of the world to get Sushi or killing Rhinos for their horns so some pervert in the Orient can get a hard on. Not many complaints in those areas, but a Lion that might grow to be 14 years of age in the wild awful that he was killed and beheaded. GMAFB
Convict firstin the media and destroy their name the new MO of the national media.
We are a fugged up society, my patience with Libtards has come to an end.
Bigwhoop: NOTHING good for the American Sportsmen Hunter will come from this incident - even though it occurred on the other side of the planet. Including the fact that said Dentist has given monies to "Republican candidates"/causes and he and they are being demonized for that. The incident in America involving the Black Bear poaching gives me an insight into this "ego-Hunters" mind set. He deserves disdain and a fine for the lion incident but he IS and IS GOING to suffer 1,000 fold what he deserves. He's ruined. Maybe it was a kharma thing? If I was that dentist I would exit stage left for a year or two. For his and his families safety. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
With the over the top, outrageous reaction by the American public to this story you can bet your sweet ass it is the perfect segue to attack Republican front runner Donald Trump on his values using his son's fairly recent safari to Africa which caused a previously subdued response as it kind of flew under the radar.
"Here's Your Reminder That Donald Trump's 2 Sons Are Also Big-Game Hunters "
It didn't take long for this to be a big deal. Its the way our society operates. Palmer has had death threats and the Bloomington PD has been hovering in the area of his building. Its all the anti's needed - some incident to flock to like a moth to a flame. The officials in Zim will drive the story based on what is revealed from their investigation - such as, what did he know and when did he know it.
What a bunch of dumass libs, this happened around the world in another country, but as usual can't keep their hands out of other folks business. Thats what is wrong with the world today, if we would worry bout our own country instead of everyone else's we might be better off.
What a bunch of dumass libs, this happened around the world in another country, but as usual can't keep their hands out of other folks business. Thats what is wrong with the world today, if we would worry bout our own country instead of everyone else's we might be better off.
I am good friends with an outfitter that has guided Palmer several times. He told me that Palmer was fanatical about following the law on all his hunts- wouldn't let them do anything that was even questionable.
He killed a lion. Libtards see every lion as Simba or Mufasa and every lioness as Nala (if you're lost, watch the Lion King). So if he would have taken this same lion (13 years old) but it didn't live on a preserve and wasn't collared, just in the wild, whack job animal rights groups that do diddly squat for conservation would still be protesting and harassing him. See the black rhino hunt auction by SCI last year that was completed recently. So if he did something illegally give him his punishment. If he didn't, well maybe he will do better research next time into areas and PH's, and possibly save himself some harassment.
On that note if he is cleared of any wrongdoing, can he legally get any compensation from these hippie animal rights groups for disrupting his business? I'm asking because I don't know all of the legalese for this type of cluster.
If only people were half as upset about the Christians being beheaded as they were about Cecil.
Whether a person is conservative or liberal can almost always be answered by asking one question. Babies of bambies, which are you ok with killing?
Anyone remember the election in Zimbabwe a few years back where Mugabe's thugs pretty much tortured and killed the opposition. The world wasn't near as upset as they are about Cecil.
BTW wasn't there another famous Cecil in that part of the world a century or so ago?
If the landowner and PH didn't have permits, they'll be up a creek. And I bet the government in Zim will find something to charge Palmer with, even if he's legally absolved in the death of the lion.
I've seen outfitters in New Mexico do illegal things for hunters, and I've had hunters claim ignorance about NM game laws.
I always find it odd when someone pays a lot of money for a hunt then makes no effort to find out about a) the biology of the animal and b) what is and is not legal in the area they're hunting, but I've seen it happen a lot.
At the end of the day, the guy choose to hunt in Zim which is a country that is rife with corruption at every level. What is "legal" is kind of an abstract point, and will matter little on how he is treated.
I think bow hunting dangerous game with a bow, crossbow, spear, etc. is somewhat of a stung. While there have been countless members of the Big Five and the big bears taken with a bow, including those taken by Fred Bear whom I admire, I just deem it as adding an extra level of risk with a very high price for failure. I don't condemn it, but it's something I would never consider doing. An arrow kill is by blood loss and one of those huge animals can do a LOT of damage before their brains run out of O2.
Anyway, this is from Ivan Carter, a person with impeccable credentials:
CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .
1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.
My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.
I'm expecting that after the hoopla dies down, some rather hefty bribes to the appropriate officials will make this all go away as far as Zimbabwe is concerned.
I am expecting the PH will have to look for another line of work, if nothing else due to the stain on his reputation in the eyes of the international hunting community.
The only wild card here is if our own Administration decides to get involved to create even more distraction over here. If so, extradition of the Dentist as per Zimbabwe's request does not seem all that far fetched.
Looks like hunting is going to be the next Confederate flag.
Yep. Who are the folks who decide what stories people hear about and whether or not a story will have legs? Whoever they are, they enjoy inordinate power.
Just wait until our own Injustice Department gets involved and charges him with a criminal violation of the Lacey Act. The Lacy Act makes it a federal felony to cross state lines for the purpose or in the act of a game violation.
They used it four or five years ago to prosecute a similar situation of some guy who had killed a bear or something, the details escape me, in Russia.
I don't know what the guy knew or didn't know, but I can see how it could happen easily. The game laws in Zimbabwe are Byzantine to say the least and one must rely on the guides and owners for compliance.
From the Zimbabwe Game Department and their posting over on Accurate Reloading:
We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-
The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place, "authority to hunt"
Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form
All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get Any off take of animals be it for cropping, management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.
1.government hunting concessions 2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas 3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies
All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc
99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter. So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting. Off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc. on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting, have the intent to hunt, look for, tracks stalk etc.
Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck, hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form, but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!
1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.
2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc
3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.
4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.
5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.
6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.
Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas, with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners, moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments, and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degree our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.
JorgeI, I saw the Ivan Carter post this morning, as I follow him too. Most of us here seem to know his points and agree.
I can't help noticing that none of the bleating crowd complaining about this lion made any reference to the woman TV producer who was pulled out of a car and killed within the past month, by guess what? These are not pussy cats that one cuddles.
The best review of the facts I have yet seen is by what appears to be a knowledgable local. It is long, but well worth reading:
One point made, which I suspect is accurate, is that local park officials may have been on the take and complicit in standing by while the lion (and client) were set up. That would not surprise me at all.
BTW, I was under the impression that back in the early days of Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, the lion population was completely wiped out by cattle farmers. Obviously, there are lions there now, but I am not sure what happened. Could conservationists and sportsmen had had anything to do with that? I cannot believe that the government did.
Anjin: I had that link on my email this morning as well, but Ivan's seemed more "to the point" and less wordy. I've also posted (above) what Zim Parks had to say. As o your query of lion repopulation of the Lowveldt, that is absolutely true. Conservationists and hunters, along with the gov't and private organizations like DSC, etc, had a LOT to do with the repopulation once the cattle was removed. J
Quicker than I thought, "mother jones" is spouting about Trumps sons being big game hunters. African exotics, of course.
Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.......
Things ain't looking up fer the Dentist that's for sure.
Hard to feel sympathy tho for a guy who shot a bear 40 miles away from legal, and then hauls it to legal where he lies about where it was shot. Says here that was an actual felony conviction in 2006 tho I dunno if that is true.
Whatever the facts of this lion thing, sounds like the guy is facing a perfect storm of bad karma. (From Anjin's link...)
The remains of Cecil, the 13-year-old dark-maned lion who had become a sort of rock star in Hwange national park were found in July of 2015. He was allegedly baited out of the park so that he could be killed legally. Legally, if, of course the land-owner, one Honest Ndlovu and the PH - Theo Bronkhurst - had a lion on quota or on licence. (If they didn’t - which was the case - there is an unsavoury practice known as a “quota transfer” where an animal shot in an area without a quota is recorded as having been shot elsewhere and needless to say this is illegal and unethical in the extreme.)
At one stage, weren't potential clients being urged to avoid booking hunts on areas that had been stolen during Government land grabs? I seem to recall there was a question whether such hunts could ever be considered "legal"?
Who cares? In a world starved for "dirty laundry", this is soiled underwear. You have to love a wild animal with a name. That is all it takes to bring this incident to the front page.
A school bus going over a cliff, full of school children has no value to news wires, but a lion named Cecil, now that's news...
Pete: Yes but for a different reason, if the property was owned by one of Mugabe's thugs then US clients at least were subject to prosecution under the Lacey Act. The other problem stemmed from non-Zimbabweans, selling hunts in Zim and the law there is clear on that. Zim in reality has some very good laws, regulations and requirements for PHs, but like everywhere else, there are scumbags around. I've never had an issue and literally thousands of Americans, Brits, Russians, etc go hunting there every year with no issue. Mugabe KNOWS where the money comes from and foreign hunters are left alone.
Pete: Yes but for a different reason, if the property was owned by one of Mugabe's thugs then US clients at least were subject to prosecution under the Lacey Act.
Yes, I recall that, but I also seem to recall the Parks management were very unhappy with the situation and there was a lot of legal wrangling whether the new "owners" could legally sell hunts on the ground..
I get the impression that certain people within the Parks department are still very old school, but the issue comes from Robber Bobs cronies being "parachuted" in above and below them, and also into "management" positions within the Safari company's themselves..
One thing I have no doubt is that had the denist been a supporter/crony of Robber Bob, then this would have been a non issue..
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.
It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.
We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.
It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.
We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.
The news media will conveniently leave that out of everything
I think bow hunting dangerous game with a bow, crossbow, spear, etc. is somewhat of a stung. While there have been countless members of the Big Five and the big bears taken with a bow, including those taken by Fred Bear whom I admire, I just deem it as adding an extra level of risk with a very high price for failure. I don't condemn it, but it's something I would never consider doing. An arrow kill is by blood loss and one of those huge animals can do a LOT of damage before their brains run out of O2.
Anyway, this is from Ivan Carter, a person with impeccable credentials:
CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .
1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.
My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.
That said, I've been around a few different doctors/dentists in hunting environments. They were the most horrific 'sportsmen' and individuals I've ever encountered that shared 'like' interests.
Never understood why attorney's get so much grief. I'd hunt with 1000 attorney's before I'd hunt with another doctor.
Sorta a "blanket statement", don't you think.
But, overreaching is not an uncommon Fire phenomenon.
I think bow hunting dangerous game with a bow, crossbow, spear, etc. is somewhat of a stung. While there have been countless members of the Big Five and the big bears taken with a bow, including those taken by Fred Bear whom I admire, I just deem it as adding an extra level of risk with a very high price for failure. I don't condemn it, but it's something I would never consider doing. An arrow kill is by blood loss and one of those huge animals can do a LOT of damage before their brains run out of O2.
Anyway, this is from Ivan Carter, a person with impeccable credentials:
CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .
1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.
My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.
As a dedicated hunter for over 60 years, I believe this dentist/bow-hunter broke the Hunter's Credo by allowing the lion to suffered for 40 LONG hours after being shot with an arrow until it was shot dead with a rifle 40 hours later. Incidentally, "40 hours" is over 1.5 days... a VERY long time to suffer great pain.
By doing so, hunter and/or his PH gave the anti-hunting crowd ALL the "ammunition" they needed to create a "problem"... and it's obvious that is EXACTLY what they're doing.
What was apparently done and what apparently happened in this situation isn't how a true sportsmen/hunters operate.
As to the right or wrong of the hunt, it is apparent that this whole situation is hardly a case of a "fair chase" hunt.
I think bow hunting dangerous game with a bow, crossbow, spear, etc. is somewhat of a stung. While there have been countless members of the Big Five and the big bears taken with a bow, including those taken by Fred Bear whom I admire, I just deem it as adding an extra level of risk with a very high price for failure. I don't condemn it, but it's something I would never consider doing. An arrow kill is by blood loss and one of those huge animals can do a LOT of damage before their brains run out of O2.
Anyway, this is from Ivan Carter, a person with impeccable credentials:
CECIL THE LION I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .
1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period . 2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit. 3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar. 4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution…. 5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident. 6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.
My thoughts… I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.
There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...
A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –
To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.
Thanks, Jorge. I haven't had time to do any research on this and my email/facebook are blowing up with folks asking for comments & clarification. I'm not taking any baits from the trollers, but it's good to get some info I can trust.
The question of is lion hunting with a bow a stunt was answered yesterday:
" How likely is it that an expert archer can kill a lion with a bow using just one arrow?
100%, in seconds."
So you can put that aside for the future.
So will a properly placed 22 or a spear. It doesn't mean it's the best way or even smart...
There are plenty of game animals wounded and lost with "proper rifles"
The only shot that will drop an animal at the shot is to brain it, but most hunters don't take that shot as it's a smaller target then the heart lungs.
With a heart lung shot, a modern compound with a good sharp fixed broadhead will do essentially the same tissue disruption to the hear lungs as a small bore with a "premium" bullet or a big bore with a hard cast. So if you consider a 45-70 with cast sufficient, the same goes for a modern bow and arrow.
Shot placement is the issue, and no sporting weapon will make up for a muffed shot.
There are plenty of game animals wounded and lost with "proper rifles"
The only shot that will drop an animal at the shot is to brain it, but most hunters don't take that shot as it's a smaller target then the heart lungs.
With a heart lung shot, a modern compound with a good sharp fixed broadhead will do essentially the same tissue disruption to the hear lungs as a small bore with a "premium" bullet or a big bore with a hard cast. So if you consider a 45-70 with cast sufficient, the same goes for a modern bow and arrow.
Shot placement is the issue, and no sporting weapon will make up for a muffed shot.
to name a lion, male or female, is so anthropomorphic. that is, we have humandized a wild animal by assigning it a humanized name.
a wild animal is not an extension of the human condition. their place in the ecosystem is quite different from ours.
so once Jack, Tom, Dick,. or Harry, or Cecil becomes aan animal's name, Katy Bar the door. we have humanized a wild animal, and that's a difficult concept to get to work properly.
but, that's not the whole story. but it is a start. what about albino deer? are they special even if they don't have a human's name assigned to them?
The Obama administration is probing the killing of Cecil the lion but hasn’t been able to reach Walter Palmer, the Minnesota hunter and dentist who allegedly killed Cecil in Zimbabwe after he and two others lured the beloved lion out of a national park.
“The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service is investigating the circumstances surrounding the killing of ‘Cecil the lion.’ That investigation will take us wherever the facts lead,” said Edward Grace, the agency’s deputy chief of law enforcement, in a statement.
“At this point in time, however, multiple efforts to contact Dr. Walter Palmer have been unsuccessful. We ask that Dr. Palmer or his representative contact us immediately,” he added.
The killing and beheading of the popular 13-year-old lion has provoked outrage, widespread publicity, and an explosion of online scorn toward Palmer.
Grace’s statement goes further than yesterday’s Fish & Wildlife Service comment that the agency is “currently gathering facts about the issue and will assist Zimbabwe officials in whatever manner requested.”
Palmer, in a statement to the Minneapolis Star Tribune two days ago, said at the time that he hadn’t yet been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or in the U.S. but pledged to “assist them in any inquiries they may have.”
The Associated Press quoted a spokeswoman for Zimbabwean police on Tuesday saying that they are looking for Palmer.
According to the BBC, one of the two men from Zimbabwe who assisted Palmer, Theo Bronkhorst, pled not guilty in a Zimbabwean court Wednesday to the charge of “failing to prevent an unlawful hunt.”
Palmer, whose practice has been shuttered amid the outrage over Cecil’s killing, expressed regret about the killing. “I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt,” he said in his statement.
The confirmation that U.S. authorities want to speak with Palmer comes as several dozen House Democrats, calling Cecil’s death a “reminder of the perils the African lion faces,” are urging the Interior Department to quickly boost protections for the iconic species.
In a letter today to Interior Secretary Sally Jewell, approximately 50 lawmakers will call for the Fish & Wildlife Service to “expeditiously” finalize a rule that lists the lion as “threatened” under the Endangered Species Act, arguing this would improve conservation in several ways.
Here’s how the letter led by Raul Grijalva, the top Democrat on the House Natural Resources Committee, makes the case for the rule:
“First, it would outlaw the trade of African lions or lion parts by people subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, except under limited circumstances. Second, it would require the Fish and Wildlife Service to certify that sport-hunted lion trophies could only be imported into the United States from countries with sound conservation plans that enhance the survival of the species in the wild. Third, it would make the African lion eligible for funding for conservation and recovery efforts under the [Endangered Species Act].”
African lions have declined by almost 50 percent in the last three decades to under 40,000 today, and inhabit just 22 percent of their former range, the letter states.
The FWS issued a draft rule last October, took public comments until late January and is now crafting the final rule. The process “generally” takes about a year, FWS said.
However, those protections would not stop a number of threats.
According to the FWS, the biggest threats facing the lions are loss of habitat, loss of animals they prey upon, and conflict between humans and lions, which is spurred by expansion of human settlements and agriculture into the lions’ natural habitat. With their native prey disappearing, lions end up killing livestock, which leads to “retaliatory” killings.
In a separate letter, Grijalva is asking Natural Resources Committee Chairman Rob Bishop to hold a hearing in September on Grijalva’s bill, which would create a new “Rare Cats and Canids Conservation Fund” at Interior. The bill “would enhance U.S. financial support for international conservation efforts that would protect lions like Cecil, as well as other rare cats and wild dogs with dwindling populations,” his letter states.
The guy's douche. But the liberals are using this to attack ALL hunters and smear them with the same paintbrush.
Fug the liberal anti-hunters.
Really? A "douche" you say?
I've known Walter for over 20 years and he's my dentist, I'd argue you are DEAD wrong. This story is a complete over reach and I agree with your second point but do not rely on the media outlets view of his character.
The guy's douche. But the liberals are using this to attack ALL hunters and smear them with the same paintbrush.
Fug the liberal anti-hunters.
Really? A "douche" you say?
I've known Walter for over 20 years and he's my dentist, I'd argue you are DEAD wrong. This story is a complete over reach and I agree with your second point but do not rely on the media outlets view of his character.
Be that as it may, his past record of game violations, and then getting himself into this mess, whether criminally liable or not, has lots of folks wondering about things.
I'm sure he's a good dentist with an excellent rapport.
As a dedicated hunter for over 60 years, I believe this dentist/bow-hunter broke the Hunter's Credo by allowing the lion to suffered for 40 LONG hours after being shot with an arrow until it was shot dead with a rifle 40 hours later. Incidentally, "40 hours" is over 1.5 days... a VERY long time to suffer great pain.
By doing so, hunter and/or his PH gave the anti-hunting crowd ALL the "ammunition" they needed to create a "problem"... and it's obvious that is EXACTLY what they're doing.
Great post Ron. The only thing I could add is that he put humans in danger by allowing a wounded lion, and one acclimated to people, to get away.
A national phugging uproar over shooting a friggin lion yet....while on the same day....we murdered 3500 children! We've got our priorities so phugged up....we don't even know who/what we are!!
Stuff the sumbeech (the lion) and build a monument to it!!
The guy's douche. But the liberals are using this to attack ALL hunters and smear them with the same paintbrush.
Fug the liberal anti-hunters.
Really? A "douche" you say?
I've known Walter for over 20 years and he's my dentist, I'd argue you are DEAD wrong. This story is a complete over reach and I agree with your second point but do not rely on the media outlets view of his character.
One more vote for DOUCHE. AND he muffed the shot. Incompetent, previously convicted poaching DOUCHE.
The confirmation that U.S. authorities want to speak with Palmer comes as several dozen House Democrats, calling Cecil’s death a “reminder of the perils the African lion faces,” are urging the Interior Department to quickly boost protections for the iconic species.
Great. It's unfortunate that these idiots don't have far more pressing needs on our turf.
We can harvest for their monetary value, the body parts of innocent children, who experience horrific, agonizing pain as their little bodies are literally ripped asunder in- utero (with the cooperation of their own mothers) without so much as a peep of protest from the public (with the consent and blessing of the courts actually). Yet there is outrage when an old-aged animal is killed (which, in nature would die of disease, starvation or predation anyway). We have utterly lost any sense and perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
FWIW, there was already about a 99.99% chance the USFWS was going to list the lion as "threatened" by the Oct 2015 deadline anyway. This will make it 99.999%.
reposting my quote from earlier today>
Originally Posted by Zim Wildlife Dept
We have in the past hour talked to officials at the Zimbabwe parks authority HQ in Harare. As far as they are concerned the client has not intentially done any wrong doing. As far as being a legal hunt, he had complied with all required documentation.
It's the landowner , or shld we say the current occupier of the land,and the professional hunter who was conducting the hunt who are in hot water. For allowing an animal that was not on the 2015 authorized hunting quota for the said property to be killed.
We were advised that investigations are ongoing at this time, and details will be made available in due course.
Following the incident, court documents emerged showing Palmer was fined $3,000 and given a year's probation after pleading guilty over the illegal killing of a black bear in Wisconsin in 2006.
The much-loved Zimbabwean lion called "Cecil" pictured in October 2012. Zimbabwe National Parks via AFP - Getty Images, file
Palmer had a permit to hunt bears within a certain area near Phillips, in the north of the state. But on September 1, 2006, he was part of a group of people who killed a black bear 40 miles outside this permitted zone, according to the court documents from April 2008.
Realizing what they had done, the group agreed that "if any authorities were to ask where the bear had been killed, they would say" it was hunted within the correct area, the documents added.
We can harvest for their monetary value, the body parts of innocent children, who experience horrific, agonizing pain as their little bodies are literally ripped asunder in- utero (with the cooperation of their own mothers) without so much as a peep of protest from the public (with the consent and blessing of the courts actually). Yet there is outrage when an old-aged animal is killed (which, in nature would die of disease, starvation or predation anyway). We have utterly lost any sense and perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
The confirmation that U.S. authorities want to speak with Palmer comes as several dozen House Democrats, calling Cecil’s death a “reminder of the perils the African lion faces,” are urging the Interior Department to quickly boost protections for the iconic species.
Great. It's unfortunate that these idiots don't have far more pressing needs on our turf.
We can harvest for their monetary value, the body parts of innocent children, who experience horrific, agonizing pain as their little bodies are literally ripped asunder in- utero (with the cooperation of their own mothers) without so much as a peep of protest from the public (with the consent and blessing of the courts actually). Yet there is outrage when an old-aged animal is killed (which, in nature would die of disease, starvation or predation anyway). We have utterly lost any sense and perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
Jordan
try for a little more drama next time...my gawd
My Gawd indeed! The description of abortion I gave is precisely accurate for any fetus over 150 days old (and probably for those much younger). Yet there is nary a peep of protest from the very people who are up in arms over the killing of an animal by a licensed hunter who had no idea his guides had lured it off a reservation.
Lion murderer Walt Palmer is an [bleep]. But, he’s also an [bleep] who’s contributed more money to animal conservation in Africa than pretty much anyone else. In fact, trophy hunters like him are a large part of the reason we still have animals like lions at all.
Maybe a side effect is that this side of the argument will get out.
In the meantime its pure politics.
Coming up to an election year the Libs want ANYTHING that can make the political Right look bad. Now we are all painted as unethical torturers who inflict horrible pain on beautiful wild animals so as to get our rocks off.
ANYTHING that can oblige Conservatives to tear each other down. Already worked in spades with the Confederate flag. Support that flag being flown and you're painted as a "racist", support it being taken down if it offends enough folks and half of Conservatives wont vote for you.
Look for this lion issue to be drug out as long as they can. The Dentist WILL be charged, with something, just so they can bring him to trial. Next year.
I'm telling you he will be charged with a Lacey Act violation and broken by the Feds.
You are probably right. They don't GAF either. It's just the latest distraction from the debt, deficit, lack of jobs, traitor in the Whitehouse, liars in the Senate, etc. More people are worried about Cecil than Ambassador Stevens.
I'm not Clinton fan, but charges were proffered and millions of dollars spent trying to impeach him over an inconsequential lie told in response to something that was not Congress' business in the first place. McConnell lies about consequential things in response to things that are everybody's business and the GOP defends him with all their might.
I'm fully betting that "our" government will enact an importation ban on African Lions, if not ALL big cats into the U.S, in an effort to appease the angry mob.
I'm fully betting that "our" government will enact an importation ban on African Lions, if not ALL big cats into the U.S, in an effort to appease the angry mob.
Yep. This almost guarantees the USFWS to declare the African lion "threatened", thereby shutting down the legal importation of any lion parts from any hunts at all.
Poaching will, of course, go through the roof then.
Yep. The only way to really protect the African animals is if they have value associated with them. People spending big money to hunt them gives them this value, without it they're screwed.
The gullible public, brainwashed for generations by Disney animal characters, talking and acting human, identify wildlife in that light. Cecil was people more than lion, a wicked hunter killing him was nothing less than cold blooded murder.
They have no concept of range capacity, population dynamics and true wildlife conservation.
Evidently this dentist has some compulsion for pushing the envelope. I say that because it's reported he had other game hunting issues.
Seems he was promised the hunt he was seeking and went with these guys, who took steps to produce a trophy without regard for rules and regs. A compulsive type will cut corners and seek those who think like he does.
The dentist may be an innocent victim, but I doubt it. He went with those who would produce what he wanted, no questions asked. But, I don't want to judge the doctor, just guessing until we know more.
I have a good friend who is a compulsive hunter (also a doctor), who went to Africa to kill an elephant with a spear. He had a special spear made, a take down type that would deliver curare. He wounded an elephant and the PH had to finish the animal with a .470 NE.
This guy got into a Lacy Act Federal prosecution because there is no spear season for elephants. The PH got in big trouble with his local government, seems he was fined and lost his license. My friend professionally videoed the hunt, his CD becoming prime evidence in Fed Court. His defense that the .470 NE actually killed the animal didn't hold water. He got zapped, lost his U.S. hunting license for 3 yrs. and paid a hefty fine plus big legal bills.
FYI - the antis and the global propaganda ministry are already turning their attention to other American hunters; Kendall Jones is in the crosshairs (again).
I was contacted a couple of days ago by a well-known reporter/writer who asked me to comment on the killing of the lion people in Zimbabwe named Cecil. I declined because, like most people, I know only what I've read in the media -- not what actually took place -- and I have not followed the story closely enough to be able to make an informed opinion.
I'm glad I declined to comment because I just checked the story and the writer editorialized on one comment to make it look more one-sided than it was. Another commenter made a statement that he can't possibly know to be true. A third point was made purely on the basis of "reports" that were not more than rumor. The article could have been worse, but I'm glad I didn't comment and get my name mixed up with that.
FYI - the antis and the global propaganda ministry are already turning their attention to other American hunters; Kendall Jones is in the crosshairs (again).
All part of the plan.
Hunting, shooting, guns, ammo, oil, coal, lumber, conservatives, republicans, Christians, family values, proper education, decent neighborhoods, whites, Americans, You and I = BAD.
Liberals, gays, transgender, democrats, socialists, blacks, wolves, grizzlies, crazy people, green energy, spotted owls, big government = GOOD.
We can harvest for their monetary value, the body parts of innocent children, who experience horrific, agonizing pain as their little bodies are literally ripped asunder in- utero (with the cooperation of their own mothers) without so much as a peep of protest from the public (with the consent and blessing of the courts actually). Yet there is outrage when an old-aged animal is killed (which, in nature would die of disease, starvation or predation anyway). We have utterly lost any sense and perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
We can harvest for their monetary value, the body parts of innocent children, who experience horrific, agonizing pain as their little bodies are literally ripped asunder in- utero (with the cooperation of their own mothers) without so much as a peep of protest from the public (with the consent and blessing of the courts actually). Yet there is outrage when an old-aged animal is killed (which, in nature would die of disease, starvation or predation anyway). We have utterly lost any sense and perspective of what is right and what is wrong.
Jordan
try for a little more drama next time...my gawd
RJ is 100% correct.
+1
Social priorities are upside down.
Not a new problem. Old as Isaiah (5:20)
Woe are we as a culture...
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Tragically this event will have a ripple effect throughout our hunting community and cast a blanket of shame upon ALL hunters in this country.
It's been this way for decades in California, this incident will in my opinion will have a dramatic effect upon our hunting culture in general.
Hanging a trophy buck or bear on the wall in your den will rekindle this event in the minds of many.
It saddens me deeply to see where this is all headed...
Fully agree, and well-state. This event has probably already made many folks who have never thought about safari hunting much or at all to have a negative view of it and all hunters in general. After the recent White House petitions to extradite him (at least two), look at the nature of the other recently submitted petitions (many related to hunting):
Basically, this has struck a nerve and it will impact the image of hunting and hunters, making it harder to gain support among some folks who were ambivalent in the past. It definitely gives the antis an audience and toehold to open the doors to negative legislation, gain donations for organizations that actively lobby against hunters and to influence those willing to listen to them.
Think of the impact Sandy Hook had on gun owners and our ability to buy ammo and guns. We still don't have the availability and pricing of pre-event. Equate Cecil the Lion to those kids...in that for some it is an endearing image shattered by someone with a gun.
Will the media furor die down? Of course. Their job requires them to move on to the next hot topic/event. Will this have long-standing repercussions? Absolutely.
Where could I post this to piss off the most scumbag anti's???
I used to piss them off with my many kill photos. Being far outnumbered by ignorant agenda driven masses proved that to be a serious mistake when they successfully used those very photos against me in anti hunting campaigns.
The vast majority of Americans are psychological basket cases. They love meat, but would be mentally scarred for life if they truly saw where it was coming from or worse yet were forced to procure it themselves and a great majority of those very same meat lovers are screaming bloody murder over not only this whole "Cecil" the lion debacle but over the entire philosophy of "sport" hunting as well.
FYI - the antis and the global propaganda ministry are already turning their attention to other American hunters; Kendall Jones is in the crosshairs (again).
All part of the plan.
Hunting, shooting, guns, ammo, oil, coal, lumber, conservatives, republicans, Christians, family values, proper education, decent neighborhoods, whites, Americans, You and I = BAD.
Liberals, gays, transgender, democrats, socialists, blacks, wolves, grizzlies, crazy people, green energy, spotted owls, big government = GOOD.
Good will become evil and evil good. Humm. Where have i heard that before?. Nah, couldnt be. That was written by illiterate sheep herders thousands of years ago
Rumor has it that in the weeks prior to Cecil's untimely death, he ran down a pregnant gazelle, crippled it's hind legs, ripped into her belly, and then ate her fetus while she was still alive and bleating. Cecil subsequently claimed he was doing research for Planned Parenthood...
In other news, Iran now has a green light to develop nuclear weapons, the Chinese are training to invade Taiwan, the American military has been decimated, the American government has refused to defend the country's borders, the president has been quietly sending thousands of more troops back into Iraq, Kuwait and the Ukraine, war still rages in Afghanistan, and ISIS continues to shoot innocent people, burn them alive, drown them in cages, and teach seven year old's the ancient Muslim art of beheading with dull knives.
Coming up: How to handle the abject horror and psychological trauma of accidentally encountering a Confederate Battle flag, a Nativity scene, a gun show, or a public display of the Ten Commandments...
Coming up: How to handle the abject horror and psychological trauma of accidentally encountering a Confederate Battle flag, a Nativity scene, a gun show, or a public display of the Ten Commandments...
Coming up: How to handle the abject horror and psychological trauma of accidentally encountering a Confederate Battle flag, a Nativity scene, a gun show, or a public display of the Ten Commandments...
Tragically this event will have a ripple effect throughout our hunting community and cast a blanket of shame upon ALL hunters in this country.
It's been this way for decades in California, this incident will in my opinion will have a dramatic effect upon our hunting culture in general.
Hanging a trophy buck or bear on the wall in your den will rekindle this event in the minds of many.
It saddens me deeply to see where this is all headed...
Fully agree, and well-state. This event has probably already made many folks who have never thought about safari hunting much or at all to have a negative view of it and all hunters in general. After the recent White House petitions to extradite him (at least two), look at the nature of the other recently submitted petitions (many related to hunting):
Basically, this has struck a nerve and it will impact the image of hunting and hunters, making it harder to gain support among some folks who were ambivalent in the past. It definitely gives the antis an audience and toehold to open the doors to negative legislation, gain donations for organizations that actively lobby against hunters and to influence those willing to listen to them.
Think of the impact Sandy Hook had on gun owners and our ability to buy ammo and guns. We still don't have the availability and pricing of pre-event. Equate Cecil the Lion to those kids...in that for some it is an endearing image shattered by someone with a gun.
Will the media furor die down? Of course. Their job requires them to move on to the next hot topic/event. Will this have long-standing repercussions? Absolutely.
![[Linked Image]](http://assets-s3.usmagazine.com/uploads/assets/articles/90155-jimmy-kimmel-gets-choked-up-about-cecil-the-lion-video/1438172690_jimmy-kimmel-cecil-article.jpg)
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