To preface, I did thoroughly use the search function. Which led me down many rabbit-holes of research about larger calibers to use for brown/grizzly bears in Alaska. However not all of my questions have been answered.

I am looking into getting a rifle in the late future (12-16 months). Primarily to be used for large bears in AK. I currently have and love a rem700 in 7mm-08 (Mc Millan, leupold 3.5-9,Douglas barrel, cerakoted) which will do about anything I need. Such as deer, elk, moose, sheep, goat,and black bears. Though I don't feel it has enough oomph for the large species.

My research led me into looking at several different calibers, 35 Remington (Rem Mohawk), 350 Remington Magnum (Rem Mohawk), 300 Win mag, .338 Win Mag, .338-06, 35 Whelen, 375 H&H, and a few others. While these are all to me, suitable choices I have a few caveats which make the decision a bit more difficult.
Firstly I am a smaller framed individual, (5'10 and 150 pounds on a good day) though I am in good physical shape having the vigor of youth, recoil is something I need to be conscious of. I would much rather have a rifle I am comfortable and confident with, rather than a flinch inducing cannon. While at the same time not having to trade off weight for reduced recoil. Hopefully keeping the weight around 7.5# if realistic. Another restriction is that I would prefer not to have a muzzle-break, as I very much enjoy my hearing and ear-plugs in the field are just not realistic to me.
In addition, I do not reload so I am limited somewhat there as well. Though my father does heavily, and I'm sure with the proper motivation (New dies and lapua brass)he would be happy to load up a few piles of ammo.

Also I know that some larger calibers, while having large projectiles, compromise power for distance. I would like to see an acceptable range for animals out to 350-400 yards.

Any recommendations for an appropriate tool for the job?
I would likely get a mcmillan stock for it, get it coated, and drop a leupy or zeiss on it. My preference is for older remington 700. Though a winchester is not out of the question; and I have heard good things about the Kimber 84m here on the forum.


Thank you for the advice!

George:

I'll tell you the same thing I tell my hunting clients; bring the gun that you're most familiar with and have the most confidence in.

Your tried-and-true Remington model 700 is plenty sufficient for interior mountain grizzly and/or coastal Alaska brown bear. I've had clients who shot both species with far less.

However, if you're just itching to buy a new gun and if you're recoil sensitive, I'd go with a .375 Holland & Holland. The Holland has mild recoil for it's immense size and a 300 grain bullet in that caliber has about the same trajectory as a .30-06, so down-range shots (300-400 yards) aren't all that problematic.

Mav

I have heard that the .375 H&H is the "Gold-Standard" for stopping power in AK. Having lived there for 6 1/2 years, I saw my fair share of them. It is also my understanding that the recoil is a soft-push rather than a sharp-jab like the .338 WinMag. Correct?

I would be comfortable using my current rifle, and while I believe it can do the job given proper shot placement I am a little leery about its stopping power close-up.

While I am not itching to get another rifle, I like most men do see some excitement in the endeavor. If a new rifle were to come about, are there any weight recommendations you might be able to make? I shouldn't be looking to sit at 6 pounds and change. Closer to 7-8 seems right, but having not shot one I don't know.

Well, the thing to remember is to take your time and get close and make a good shot the first time around, so you won't be forced to take care of things when they're right in your face.

But, if you're more than a little apprehensive about using the caliber you now have, then I'd use something considerably larger. Nevertheless, the caliber you currently have on-hand - the one you mentioned at the outset - will certainly do the job under normal brown/grizzly bear hunting situations.

in terms of rifle weight, that's not much of an issue when it comes to brown/grizzly bear hunting. However, spring hunting is typically more strenuous than hunting in the fall. Even still, the average factory weight of a production rifle (7-1/2 pounds - sans scope, sling and ammo) isn't too heavy when on a typical brown/grizzly bear hunt.

A 7mm08 for bear in alaska? You have got to be kidding me. Any guide or hunting partner who would let you use that ought to have their license yanked. Beause its their life chasing a wounded bear into the alder. Or the next hunter who gets mauled by the wounded bear you leave in the woods. If they let you use it its because they intend to shoot at the same time with their .460 and do the job right. The .375 is old school meaning its probably the best all around bear gun you will hear guides talk about in the 40 years I have been here. The 45-70 is nice too since you have all that history of buffalo and indian hunting to reminisce about. Recoil is a mute point in this day and age with the quality of recoil pads which can take the pain away. We had a number of guys asking for help tracking their wounded bears on the Alaska forum because of poor caliber choice and poor shooting. Take enough gun.

Such nonsense.

Knowing the 7mm08 would do the job, I am still apprehensive as to its stopping power. It does have killing power, but stop-right-there power I don't think so. Having known family members who have tracked wounded grizzlies through alders, I understand it is a stressful experience to say the least. Though on the flip side, I know that a 375 H&H with good shot placement is no guarantee of an immediate kill; bears are amazing creatures.

That is good to know that weight won't be a large issue with the H&H. Any advice as to action/barrel? Off-hand I'm thinking an old 'A' series prefix R700 LA and screwing on a new tube.

Thanks

Yeah, you would probably feel a little under-gunned with the necked down version and when following up a wounded b/g bear in dense foliage. Of the 200 or so b/g bears that I've been responsible for, I've had to go in after 7. It's pretty exciting, to say the least.

Anyway, I recommend a bolt action, of course. The precise manufacturer is pretty much up to the individual, though. There again, it's a matter of familiarity and confidence. If you like Remington actions and know them well, then that's what you should stick with.

Wow, 200 bears! Would love to read that book...

Guess I need to turn in my license then as this spring I allowed two of my brown bear hunters to bring a .270 Win and another a 7 mm Rem.
I was not the least bit surprised that their large boars died just as quickly as the ones shot by the other hunters with a 300 Win, 35 Whelen and a 340 Wby .
Of course they all could shoot and actually hit the bear in the vitals on the first shot.

The only wounded bear I had to chase was from a hunter who was using 9.3x62 ( which is legal in most African countries for elephant and I know from experience is just as lethal as the 375 on big bears)

George, while the 7/08 would not be my first choice for a big bear rifle - with good bullets and adequate shot placement it will work. My recommendation has always been anything with the power level of a 30-06 or up --THAT YOU CAN SHOOT WELL.

I would feel more at ease given that extra oomph of a 7mm, as opposed to a necked down case. A rough/quick look at numbers yields slightly heavier projectiles and about 500 extra lbs of force at muzzle while an extra 500 or so at about 200 yrds. (Again a rough estimate comparing 140gr 7mm08 to 175gr 7mm RemMag)


Also Phil, I checked out your website. Looks like you are living in paradise. I didn't see any financial information for costs of hunts, and the old add-age of 'if you have to ask....'. Perhaps this would be better discussed over email?

Here is a photo of the hunter from Colorado who used his 270 with 150 partitions. The den is right behind the hunter. Notice how far the bear traveled after receiving two quick hits tight behind the shoulder.



If you want to discuss a bear hunt in the future e-mail is the best. Or PM me

That's a nice looking bear there! Good to see a .270 handling the job nicely. I can't wait to get out and about it AK again. Just a different kind of hunting up there.


Also will shoot you an email this afternoon.

Use Rem 700 Titanium in 7/08 loaded with 140 G Nosler Partitions for sheep . Carry a few 160 G Nosler partitions for bear. If, If, and if have time to load 'em up.
Most important in my mind as the pros above stated . Know yer gun.
My first choice for bear is Winchester 71 in .450 Alaskan. Or there abouts.
Cisco

If you love it and shoot it really well in all positions why don't you just use what you have with a premium bullet? Sure it is nice to have a bigger bullet going downrange, but in the end placement will be near everything.

I do enjoy my current rifle, and am quite comfortable in its operation. I don't want to use the event as as excuse for a new tool, but I do wish to use whatever will give me the highest chance of success.

Perhaps the 7-08 will indeed do the job.

Rifle used: Winchester M70 300 H&H Magnum.

You are going to be shooting large bears at 350 to 400 yards?

Preferably not. But, on extremely rare occasions a hunter makes a bad hit and the next thing you know the bear is quickly out there at 300+ and putting a hell of a lot of distance between himself and whoever stung him. A relatively flat shooting caliber makes those rare instances a little less problematic than they already are.

Very good point, and very true- I use the same philosophy on my hunting rifles.

If I ever come into money I'm giving Phil a jingle. Then I'll load up some stiff 200 grain partition loads in my '06, go through a list of gear I'll need and get to bear hunting. Til then I'll just shoot little ol blackies and dream big.

It would not be my intention or preference to make long (350-400) shots on bear. However the rifle would likely be used on a multitude of species, at various ranges. Having the ability to comfortably make a long shot, is as Maverick mentioned less problematic.

Looking a touch more at the 375 H&H from a research aspect I see two possible ways of tailoring it more towards my needs. However my lack of knowledge makes these avenues murky, and the pros/cons of each option is unknown to me.

Option one, a removable brake that is only fitted during practice. Which is then removed before hunting, and a protective cap is screwed on the threads. (I saw this on another caliber earlier this morning on a camp fire members rifle)

Option two, a suppressor. For this option I am unsure of the corresponding barrel length for a 375 H&H, as it would surely get unwieldy with a 24" tube + can.

Any thoughts as to these options?

A 375 with a high quality recoil pad. Just ask which one and I'm sure you'll be bathed in options and opinions. Hand load and get comfy with it. Start with lighter practice lower price tag slugs. Then a few practice rounds with the hunting ammo. If you NEED a brake then get one. Then shoot some more. That's what I would do if I were going to go with a 375 for just one hunt.

George:

Just to help you out a little bit with your .375 dilemma;

Since the .375 Holland & Holland has mild recoil when compared with a .300 Winchester Magnum or .338 Winchester Magnum or .264 Winchester Magnum, and since you're a little concerned about noise or decibel levels for those who might be sitting behind you when you shoot, I'd nix the idea of a muzzle-brake. You really don't need it for the .375 H&H. The "felt" recoil of a .375 Holland & Holland is just slightly more than that of a .30-06 or at worst, about like that of a 12 gauge shotgun.

have you ever thought about the 9.3x62? great caliber. a guy in the yukon sold me on the cal, but if your recoil sensitive then i would take something your reliably going to shoot well. you dont want some big bang stick that you can't hit the brod side of a barn with. i sure your 7mm-08 will do fine, BUT once you see that huge grizzly bear or brown bear you will feel a little bit underguned and intimadated. then again i have friends that hunt grizzly and polar bear with 308's and 303's. a guy in nunavut was out hunting polar bear and actually took the polar bear down with a tiny little 223 round! Now that is something i would not reccomend. LOL. but the 9.3x62 doesnt have much recoil is more of a fast push the a rapid smack on your body.

If the recoil is similar to a 12 gauge or 30-06 than I will be just fine. I certainly put a hurting on pheasant here in SD. Although I did use a buddies over and under, which was accidentally switched to fire both tubes simultaneously, it certainly got my attention
Currently using a weatherby sa-08 12ga and find it very comfortable to use.

Sounds like a winner to me then. Keeping the weight around 8# scoped seem reasonable?

Also need to find someone in my area that has one, so that I might test fire. But that will likely be an endeavor

I have a 35 Whelen which is more of a push that a hard snap. Mauser action. There is also the 338 Federal and the 358. Shorter actions, thus lighter weight, and both have a punch. My 308 Ruger with a skeleton stock kicks harder than the 35 Whelen if you are recoil sensitive. Browning make a 325 mag in a lever action.

Magnums like the 300 WM kick harder than a 3006. Now you can reload the 06 hotter or buy light magnum ammo from Hornady.

I've heard that bigger diameter bullets make a bigger hole for faster blood loss especially in a fat bear where the hole might seal up. Don't know, but also a heavy bullet for caliber hits them harder too.

Does anyone feel recoil under field conditions anyway? I'm looking to build a load for my 375 in the 2350-2450 fps range and it should cover my bases for all hunts. FWIW, I should think it will offer a tad less recoil as well.

A scoped and loaded and slung .375 Holland & Holland that comes in at around 9-10 pounds makes for pleasant shooting practice at the bench. It might be a little heavy for packing around at 8,000-10,000 feet on a trophy bull elk hunt or, for carrying around when on a mountain goat hunt. But, it's certainly not too heavy for a fall brown/grizzly bear hunt or even a spring brown/grizzly bear hunt.

Phil,

I really like your new 9.3x62 M-70 with the Legend stock and light barrel. IIRC, it's about 7# or so.

Please re-post that photo with details on the gun for this thread.

Thanks,

DF

I think that is reasonable, right at 9#. Would certainly draw a nice relationship with my other hunting rifle. 7-08 for deer, goat, sheep, elk, and black bear. With the 375 for moose, brown/grizzly, and bison. There could be some overlap between the two calibers, but they largely cover everything on North America.

Here it is, It's a pre-64 ftw with 22 " stainless bbl in an Echol's edge stock. It holds 5 9.3x62 rounds in the magazine and weighs a bit over 7 lbs. - it is my current rendition of "the best all around Alaskan rifle"
Previous winners have included my FN 30-06, a FN 35 Whelen, a couple of stainless M-70 338 Wm, a stainless M-70 375 H&H, a Ruger 375 H&H, an FN 375 Ruger and, in the factory category, the Ruger 375 Alaskan.

Well, there has never been a guide in history that recommended the 7mm08 for brown bear. Sure you could do it, many times matter of fact. Like crossing a lake with no life jacket. Easily done if you have no fear or caution. But you also have no margin for error. And much better hunters than you or me have all kinds of problems killing brown bears with much larger guns than said caliber. The gun is all wrong. Small, fast, light bullet is exactly opposite of what you want which is heavy, large and slow. Early guides Hal Waugh and Ralph Young liked the .375 and Joe Want carried something larger. Even the current poster Mr Shoemaker has been linked to the .458 winchester. If he wont carry one why should you? Get a good pachemayer pad. And I promise when you are looking at that brownie you will feel not one ounce of recoil���

Alaskan territorial hunter Hosea Sarber liked and used his 270 on Brown bear, as did Kodiak Guide Karl Braendel. Since our bullets and powders are much better today, unless the bears are tougher or the shooters less capable, there is no reason you can't safely hunt with the same calibers that have been used for nearly a century.
The world record Kodiak bear was killed with a 30-06 in 1952 and I have used mine to stop a few as well. Including this one



Do I "recommend" a 7-08 for Brown bear - no - but would I guide a hunter who wanted to use one - most certainly. It is equal to the 7x57, and when you talk with any experienced Alaskan or African PH you will find out that more game is wounded by hunters being "over-gunned" than by being "under-gunned"

Damn!! How much did that one weigh??

i too would like to know what that bear weighed! its a monster!

It was a long way from a scale but I estimate it weighed 1100-1200 lbs. I have only taken one that had actually been weighed by F&G biologists the previous spring and it weighed 982 lbs as it emerged from it's den. This bear was the same size as that one but is a fall bear with four inches of fat covering most of it's body.
The bear in the photo in my avatar was at least 300 lbs heavier.

sollybug
Whether or not one feels recoil during a hunt has NOTHING to do with whether or not he will flinch. A flinch starts BEFORE the recoil occurs.
And, a person is much more likely to flinch under the excitement of shooting at an animal than they are when they are at the range and can concentrate on not flinching.
Reread what 458Win said about seeing more problems with hunters having too much gun that not having enough gun.
The problem with having too much gun is not that they make too wide or deep a wound channel, it's that people flinch in the field.

I once had a client whom I had advised to bring a .30-06 on a coastal bear hunt. He showed up with a .338 Winchester magnum which he'd borrowed from a friend. While on the gravel bar and checking his gun after the plane dropped us off for the duration of the hunt, he had a misfire and the flinch he exhibited was something to behold. My first thought was, "This is going to be an interesting hunt". Suffice to say that he missed two bears during the course of the hunt. Thank goodness he never accidentally hit one. The next time he came, he brought the '06.

I am not so concerned as to the recoil during the moment of truth. But during the preparation needed to become proficient with the weapon. If I can't comfortably shoot a particular caliber in field positions or on the bench, I don't see much point in taking it in the woods.

Still thinking the 375 could be the golden ticket.

Though a 7mm Rem Mag or .280 could be a contender as well.

Thanks, Phil.

I just love looking at that rifle. It has such nice lines and seems such handy bear medicine.

DF


Edited to add: What receiver sight and how is the Legend comb height for iron sights?

It is mighty handy Probably because D'Arcy's stock design comes the closest to matching the one I cobbled together on my 458. Only his is a lot prettier

Didn't that .458 have a name, something like "ole ugly", or such?

D'Arcy told me the Legend comb was set up for scopes but did OK with tall iron sights. Evidently the comb height is right for your receiver sight, or you wouldn't have it set up that way.

BTW, which receiver sight and is it a ghost ring type set up, or something else?

DF

The comb on Ole Ugly is lower but the grip and forend feel are quit similar

I had seen pictures of Ole Ugly, but didn't remember it was a Mauser.

D'Arcy's Legend stock is made only for m-70's. Did you go with a M-70 because of the Legend stock and how do you compare those two actions, the Mauser and M-70 for what you do?

DF

Wasnt Hosea Sarber mauled/died by a bear attack? Maybe the .270 explains that....Well I agree with the flinching problem and shooting an unfamiliar gun its more likely. I shot a 7mm for years and would have to practice dry firing to avoid flinching. Finally I broke down and put a good recoil pad and problem solved. A guy let me shoot his .460 and I flinched like a mofo I was so scared and afterwards I feel it kicked a lot less than my 7mm. But he had a nice recoil pad also. I have hunted with a .243 quite a bit which is a necked down 7mmo8 and the recoil and noise is substantial (it�s a tiny custom 4 lb rifle.). I bet you don�t see much difference in pain to the straight case .375 with a good recoil pad.

No offense to anyone but IMO as long as your Guide is backing you up buying yourself some magnum "ALASKA RIFLE" wouldn't be neccesary.

If you are skillful with the .30/06, 270 Winchester, or 7mm Magnum, that your comfortable shooting bring it and save yourself money.

+1


What about guys like WDM Bell....more about skill than the rifle.

Tundra Camo...

W.D.M. Bell was on his own in Africa poaching Elephants for their Ivory.

In my scenerio for an Alaskan Bear hunt I want a experienced Guide backing me up. As I understand it most Guides use .338 Winchester Magnum chambered rifles for up close work with bear teeth and claws.

Not at all, in fact he wrote that he rather liked the 270. But preferred his 30-06 - even over his 375.

He was law enforcement and was investigating some salmon poachers when he disappeared - all they found was his skiff.

+1 for the 375 H&H!!

Bell was using a small caliber(compared to normal ones used) to get the job done.

Like any other hunting, it's the bullet that does all the killing - and where the shooter places it that determines how quickly the animal dies.
It is amazing how very little all the other stuff - like bullet diameter and velocity - changes any of the first two.
And how much you paid for you scope, or who built your rifle, or how well you once shot off the bench, doesn't matter a bit.

So,

where is the line?

.375 H&H same as 9,3x62 same as .35 Whelen, same as .338 Win Mag same as .300 Win. Mag. same as .30-06 same as .270 Win same as 25-06 same as .257 Roberts same as .243 same as .223 (AI that is)...???

It seems to silly old me that we are seeing the pendle go to the other extreme from Keith and his stories from "up Alaska way".

Since no one has mentioned this yet, FYI.

Ruger Alaskan

Ima dumbazz, dont even live in Alaska, and sure aint a Bear Guide.

But I came across a very cool 416 Taylor on a VZ-24 Mauser action, it wears 1/4 rib express sights, set it in a BC syn stock with alum. chassis, has a 1.5-5 Leupold in a set of 8-40 drilled Talley QD's.

The 400 gn Hornady RN Interlock bullets backed down to very reasonable 2250 fps is a very surprisingly manageable round to handle, and I would think it should be a perfect G Bear rifle up close or out to maybe a 100 yards or so.

Just one wannabe's opinion.

Gunner

I have done some reading about the 375 ruger. Would do the job I imagine!

I have shot a few rugers, and while nice, I prefer an older rem 700. Though recently some pre64 winnys have been calling. Half the fun of a new toy is the speculation in its purchase

Just can't seem to find the perfect solution for me.
The 375 looks very promising and effective, but I can't pair it down to 6-7# and shoot it comfortably (Based on what others here have mentioned).
I have been looking at a Remington 350 magnum. Seems nifty
Have also been looking at a Rem 7mmRM but its not too far off from my current rifle.
Need to take some more time reading I suppose. Getting out and shooting some couldn't hurt either.

Hi Carl,

So if we apply mathematic laws the 375H&H eaqual the 223AI and vice versa.

I like the fire i learn every day.

Regards my friend

Dom

But he was an very exceptional shooter, training all day when not hunting, shooting birds in flight with rifle or his C96 Mauser with stock.
He also learnt the anatomy of the elephant, and most of the bulls he shot never had seen a white man or heard a rifle shot. Other man, other times other gift. Most shots were really close so close that it would be almost impossible to get like this today. And he never stand still looking "at the shot", jolting bolt as fast as he can with fantastic precision.
And was not poaching. Taylor was a poacher most of time, Bell hunted for ivory on licences and rights mostly.
Like the Topperwein, Annie Ockley, Crosman, and other more modern US pistoleros or riflemen, Bell was over the crowd.

Dom

Yeah, seems that you're in a conundrum of sorts, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. It's not like you're heading out on that bear hunt in the next twelve weeks. Eventually you'll land on an idea that suits your need and your sensitivity. In the end, you're just going to need to go for it and take a leap of faith.

.............Tons of choices here from cartridges to rifle choices.

The problem is, is that most of them will work fine making things more confusing and tedious with your selection process.

Some years back, I owned and used an older M/70 375 H&H on a successful big bear hunt, which with only a light 4x fixed scope weighed about 11.5-12 lbs. Damn thing was a pig to carry and to handle as well. Sold it. Once and maybe a few times as well, people including me have purchased on emotion rather than using some common sense and thinking ahead.

Before considering which cartridge, I suggest you go out to every local gun dealer or gun show that might be in your area and start handling some rifles. If recoil is a consideration while at the same time you`re leaning towards a 375, a minimum rifle weight before scope of about 8 to 8.5 lbs lbs would be a good and logical choice.

Stock choice boils down to preference. For harsher weather I personally prefer the non-woodys myself and a rough it type of rifle which doesn`t need any coddling or babying. Some prefer the more lavish woodys.

At 6'3" 235 lbs my handy 20" tubed 375 Ruger Alaskan is perfect for me. Bought in back in `08 for future bison, moose and some big bear use when I get the time to go. There is a huge difference in every way for the better between my Alaskan vs my former woody 375 H&H.

Go find the rifle that is best for you in terms of rifle weight, OAL, handling, carrying, looks, stock preference and design, and then usually the cartridge and recoil preferences will follow.

Got two pards that have Taylors. 'Fire-member Beerhuntr has one that I shot (once). I still have that bruise from 2 years ago.

Another pard built one on a lefty Savage action sourced from RWE. Killed a brownie on Kodiak last fall with it. The bear didn't like it one bit.

Of course not Dom.

I argue, that by getting used to discussing inconsequential increments we becoming unaquainted with the concept of "boxing" in cartridges and use types.

Problem with this is overlap at the fringes and also inconsequential increments right at said border.

But,

if we do away with any borders you get above chain of "reasoning":

Do it step by step -

Q: .375 H&H and 9,3x62 ??
A: same same

Q: 9,3x62 and .35 Whelen??
A: same same

Q: .35 Whelen and .338-06 ??
A: same same

Q: .338-06 and .30-06 ??
A: same same

Q:.30-06 and .270 Win. ??
A: same same

...

I bet, were one to put in the time, one would find an example thread, probably many for each of the above; and hence my Question:

Where is the divide?

Is it just mental or is the .375 H&H really not worth anything more than the .270 Win in any hunting situation?

I'm thinking about the same. The right option will eventually jump out at me. I'd rather have a rifle that I loved, and did everything I wanted as opposed to something that fell a little short.

Maybe building an ultra-light 280 or 7mmRM would be closer up my alley.

Out of curiosity has anyone owned/shot a remington 700 classic in 350 Mag?

Here in the Twin Cities area there are several 1000+ lbs Kodiak Bears on display in sporting goods stores. Every one of them was taken with a 375H&H.

Was joking Carl, only joking...

To me, one must use a rifle and ammo he can manage well, without going borderline, then use the right bullet for the job (penetration, tissue destruction), then more important learn about the anatomy if it's the first time he hunt that game, be it a bear , a buff, a moose, an elk...and then train to shoot from field positions and play the bolt shouldered the faster he can to double or even triple in case of, instead of bragging of half moa or BC of his bullets.

I saw to many people looking at their shot because they want to get one shot kill
Saw that on very big water buff bull in Australia, not a good idea..

Never be over gunned if you can't manage the tool but never be under gunned, because you think it's good to follow new trend to use the smaller caliber you can. This don't prove your better or smarter.

But i'm sure you understand what i mean till we met shortly and spoke together.
Not enough money for grizzly in Alaska, but next year my Mozambique buffalos gun will be N�1 450-400. I know it will do the job and me too. Hope to get pictures....

Dom

George_in_SD, if I may say so you, are (way) over-analyzing and over-thinking this issue. As has been stated any cartridge from the 30/06 to the 375s will fill the bill. (and as noted some below the '06 can and have done it, and probably will again).

The .350 Rem Mag is a very nice cartridge too; it will do well for bear with 30/06 level recoil or a touch more depending on the rifle, which really, is probably the first and last part of the equation. Get one you like, at the weight you like, and practice to 200 yds from every field position.

I like a bigger cartridge for big animals and would go to one of the 375s myself, and have. They are robust but not vicious kickers like some of the smaller, medium bores can be -- the .338s, big .30's, etc.

George, I am also a III if I may say so.

I am admittedly over-thinking this, as I do most major purchases.

I would jump on a 350 Rem Mag, but am slightly concerned about the availability of ammunition. Especially given that I do not reload (Yet!).
For me it's either 350Rem Mag, 375 H&H, or a lightweight (7mmRM, 280, or 30-06)
I see the merit of going to a larger caliber most definitely. Though I do not want a heavy-heavy rifle, as I would use it in the future on longer back-packing/hiking hunts. Finding the happy medium seems difficult to me.
If a 350 RemMag has lower recoil than a 375 (Which I know to be a slow-push, as opposed to fast-hit) than it may be the golden ticket. If it can be slimmed down weight wise, and still be manageable. Given ammo is reasonably available.

Thoughts?

Hunting brown bears is my favorite pasttime. I've killed several and helped others kill many more. Given your parameters--factory ammo and recoil conscious--buy a SS 30/06 and go hunting. Anything else is simply chest thumping.....

I've said it before and will make the same offer again.

I'll bet a cold Pepsi more brown bears have been killed by the '06 than by the next two most popular calibers combined.

I don't hunt bear, and I'm not a guide, but that Ruger Compact rifle in 338 or 375 Ruger Compact Magnum sure looks like it would make a good bear rifle. Compact, rifle sights, decent cartridges, and from what I've seen and heard the Ruger would be adequately dependable. As far as factory produced rifles it looks like what in my mind's eye a bear rifle ought to look like.

You might go handle one and look at some reviews of the cartridges a little bit. It ain't gonna hurt anything.

..........You`re probably 100% right. But regardless, personal preferences do vary with not all siding towards using a 30-06 as a first preference for big bears.

For a big brownie hunt, either my 375 Ruger Alaskan or 338-378 Bee would get first considerations before my 300 WSM compact, which is really a 24" to 26" tubed 30-06 AI.

I'm the 3rd.. and last - two daughters!

If you are not going to hand load and would like a light rifle I would recommend the 30/06; there are a ton of factory loads and it can be had in some light rifles and if you master it, you would not need more on this continent.

I reserve the right to say you are over-thinking it because I should know.

edited to add, I noticed your caveat about reloading. If you decide to do so, while some may think the 350 RM an odd choice, it is a solid 300 yard cartridge (and more, depending on you); there are good 358 bullets available with recoil not discernibly above the '06, at least for me. So you could built it light too. I have a beautiful 350, it's only fault being about a pound and a half heavier than I'd prefer. A 225-gr TSX at 2700-2800 fps (longer box) is pretty potent.

Welcome to the fire neighbor!

+1 on the .338 RCM. I can attest to its effectiveness on big black bears, at least, and it's quick-handling in thick cover.

Agreed.

Basically what it all boils down to, is simply choosing a caliber and manufacturer and then just go bear hunting. It's not rocket science, nor brain surgery.

The reality is that no one is getting any younger and the cost of hunts increases exponentially each year.

So, basically speaking, pick a gun manufacturer and choose any number of adequate calibers and then, go kill a bear.

Pretty simple, really.

I have been guiding and killing big bears now for over thirty years. Re-read what I wrote a couple pages back and that everyone has been ignoring.




If you think you need the biggest and most powerful rifle, that is fine, If you put the bullet in the correct spot it will kill bears just fine. But so will a 270, 7mm, 300, 308, 338, 35 or 375.

When I am asked what I recommend I tell my clients that if they use a premium bullet, anything they can shoot well will work.
If pressed for "the best" I recommend either the .338 Win or the 375 ( Ruger or H&H, it doesn't matter)

The bear that wore this hide took a single hit from a 300 Win and didn't travel over 50 feet. That is a 12 foot ladder it's hanging on




And when I am guiding, and likely to have to wrinkle a wounded bear out of the pucker brush and keep them out of my lap, I like my 458 Win. I really can't say that it kills them any faster than my 30-06, but it certainly puts them down quicker, which then gives me a chance to get another shot in them as they are getting back up.

I suspect most "heard" you, Phil.

I'm just thinking that redundancy of point several times over is not gonna make a difference to some.
Move on. Don't need any bonofides explained, don't need tellin' over and over again. Some (alas) will never get it.
The good news is that some will be blissfully happy not getting it...makes the world go around, thinks I.

Phil, your latest bear gun, the light weight M-70 in 9.3x62 sounds really good. Lots of power, 5 down, one up and in a D'Arcy Legend stock. It is obvious that gun reflects many years of packing rifles and killing big bears.

As the latest product in the evolution of your thinking and experience, one would assume this rifle represents the "perfect" packing rifle for big bears.

How close am I?

DF

Carl,
Fixed it for you

An infomercial aired some years back that had the tag-line: "A mind is a terrible thing to waste..."
Seems it would apply to your "hypothetical" on taking the time, yes?

best,
Mark

Good morning, Phil.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I carry my .375 Whitworth for all the same reasons you carry your .458 Winchester. Following up wounded bears is tricky business. In fact, so tricky, that only once have I taken a client in with me. Otherwise, I just do it myself, so I don't have to babysit someone or worry about myself being shot.

And unless a potential client just can't live without bringing his super-duper mega-velocity magnum or quasi "elephant gun", I always advise customers to bring the gun and the load that they know the best and can shoot the most effectively (accurately). I've had guys kill brown/grizzly bears with everything from .243 Winchesters on up to .460 Weatherbys and they all worked sufficiently when conditions were right and when the first bullet was placed where it was supposed to be.

You can pretty much tell or determine a potential client's seriousness about hunting Alaska game in the first few minutes of a conversation. Generally, when the conversation turns to "what type of gun do I need", you can pretty much weed out the sincere clients from the tire-kickers. A hunter who's sincere about going bear hunting will listen to practical advice without debate and then go on a bear hunt.

Again, the basic bottom line on rifles and cartridges for anyone who's seriously considering a brown/grizzly hunt to the Far North, is to choose any of the bolt-action manufacturers and any one of a number of adequate calibers and just go bear hunting. Everything else is just talk.

Mav

I wanted to take a moment and thank all of you for your informative, and wise advice. It's good to know from those that have been-there-done-that what works. If a 30-06 will work, hopefully I can get it a trim and fit 6.5# ready to rock. Now I just need move on back up to AK

no problem getting a .30-06 in the neighborhood of the weight you're seeking.


but you will know when you touch off a 180 grainer in it!


still a good choice for a multi purpose rifle imo, though never having owned one myself it's the caliber I steered my oldest boy towards when he got his first big game centerfire rifle (I'd already gotten him a bolt action .223, trigger time, trigger time, trigger time)

everything boils down to compromise, you're apt to spend a bunch of money getting your .30-06 down to the weight you desire and then find you have a custom rifle that while a joy to carry is not much fun to shoot. Everyone's recoil sensitivity varies.


I'd be inclined to buy a stock rifle, either Tikka (some don't care for the detachable box mag) or one of the Win featherweights and not have a lot of money tied up in the rifle, but that's just me (who owns a NULA) speaking of if you really want a light wt. '06 a call to Melvin might just be in order

Personal preferences aside, the point being it has/does/will work.

One thing, and probably purely subjective, is comfort level.

Obviously one has to have spent some time in bear country with a certain arm to find out whether it instills said comfort.

To me it starts with a .30-06 and 180 TSX Bullets. It was what I had next to me when I took this pic -



I have also carried a .308 Win (Savage 99) with C&Cs and did not fancy that too much.

9,3x64 with 286 gr. TSX DWM - worked

You`re probably 100% right. But regardless, personal preferences do vary with not all siding towards using a 30-06 as a first preference for big bears.

[/quote]
Personal preferences aside, the point being it has/does/will work.
[/quote].........Of course the 30-06 has, is, and will do the job on the big bears. Never stated it wouldn`t or couldn`t.

But when one has a 375 Ruger and a 338-378 Wby additionally to choose from, either one will get big bear duty before my 300 WSM.

Yes and, how many miles must I carry my gun? Through country teeming with bears?

Yes and, how many bear with said gun must I shoot? Just to see and to know, that its good?

Oh, how many nights must I spent in a tent? With bears spending it outside?

The answer, my friend, is typed on the 'fire, the answer is typed on the 'fire.

***

To the tune of "How many roads..."

And let not those who can not walk, or hold a tune, or never spent a night in bear country be discouraged...

Oh, how many nights must I spent in a tent? With bears spending it outside?



^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

If you're going to be indoors, then them being outside is preferable, right?






[/quote]

Most definetly.

Yeah, me too. Only once have I ever had one enter a tent, but thank goodness I wasn't around at the time. Had a bunch of them stroll right next to tents over the years, but only once had one decide that it was going to see what was inside.

Don't quit your day job.

Who did that song?

Bob Dylan.

Bob Dylan.







Let's keep it that way, OK?


I get that from my kids almost everytime I sing.

Timing is evathang!

Meaners...

What's really amazing is that no matter how many times someone posts a "bear rifle" thread we all read it and it gets multiple pages of posts! Including myself

BTW I do a little brown bear guiding and I happily carry a 375 Ruger Alaskan....

I've been reading about hunting Brn/Griz bear since I was a kid and I've come to the conclusion that IMHO the discussion/writing about the selection of the proper rifle/cartridge combo is just one part of many parts that make "the hunt". Seems the same with some other varieties of big game to. Wouldn't have that change for anything. So carry on.

And everyone comes to the same conclusion - that what they want to carry - it the best.

Was caribou and blk bear hunting on the upper reaches of the Kuskokwim in the early '90s and saw scenes like this nearly every day of a week long hunt. Second to last day, outfitter offers my buddy and I a chance at one of the many browns we were seeing for $4k a piece. I decided not at that time -- talk about false economy! I was appropriately armed too. Those were my 340 B days slinging 250-gr Nos Part's.

Do tell. Inquiring minds want to know.....or at least I do.



FWIW....on this topic....if I ever went, I'd probably take my 30-06. Never went, and at current rate that bills vaccum my wallet, it's likely that I never will

Sorry to hear about your economic situation, Justin. Hopefully you'll eventually be able to go on some sort of an Alaska hunt for any of the big-game species that are available. It's a pretty unique experience.

In reference to your question - about the one time that a bear chose to "peek" inside one of my tents - wasn't much to it, actually;

Arrived back at camp right at dark and found both tents flattened (client's tent and my tent). After scavenging the remains and some quick in-field repairs in the dark, I had a functional tent set-up for the client. I spent the remainder of the hunt "sleeping under the stars", so to speak.

Was a great hunt. Killed a really nice bull moose.

Mav

George,

I am not a bear guide. I am Alaskan and I have shot 1 Brwn Bear/Grizzly in LDAP. However, the 350 Rem Mag in a mohawk kicks more than my 9.5 lb whitworth Express 458 that is magnaported. They (the 350s) weighed only about 6.5 lbs and the actual kick from the rifle is memorable.

A 350 Rem in a Ruger 77 would be great. It weighs at least 1 lb more.

I think that you might come up with a very good 300 Win Mag in a mauser like a CZ550 Kevlar. There are enough good gunsmiths in SD that you could have it cerakoted, dakota 3-p saftey, ported and tuned so you have a 9.5 lb rifle that with 200 grain partitions would kick like a 270 and would be able to handle the rough stuff.
Leupold was making 3X scopes. Get the old lyman dot recticle with thin crosshairs.
Work the action 400-500 times so it is smooth as butter.

Practice shooting a paper plate off hand at 50 yards till you can get it 9 out of ten times.

You would be the envy of many and would be prepared if tshtf.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Thanks Maverick.

Not much to the economic situation. Just a middle class American with 4 kids. Love them all dearly, but they came at the rate of 1, 2 for 1, and one "oops" after wifes tubes were tied. lol. Thank God daily for my job and my family. Long as I can raise them right, that's all that matters. In the mean time, I'll just stick to white tails and hopefully blackies soon enough. Lord knows NC has enough bears to go around until I can hunt a "real" bear haha.

Really enjoyed reading this thread. Get a chuckle out of some responses. I can't imagine a creature on this planet that can last very long with a hole through both lungs. Maybe I would opt for a larger caliber and cartridge if I planned on running face to face with Yogi, but in an ideal world, I would like to think the bear had no idea where the loud bang came from when I let the air out of him, and that once we met face to face...well...all that Id would get would be a hollow stare from cold dead eyes.

Personal protection as a guide having to potentially follow a wounded bear into thick stuff, and getting maybe one shot off before they're rolling in the mud together, yeah Id rethink that. Hunting and personal protection are two different things IMO.

Again, take my opinion with a grain of salt. I've never killed anything that weighed more than me.

Here�s one heckuva cool story for all you bear-hunting aficionados.

On a spring day back in 1953, 63-year-old Bella Twin and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse and picking berries near Lesser Slave Lake in the Swan Hills of northern Alberta, Canada. As the story goes, they were walking an oil-exploration survey line when they ran into a humongous grizzly bear following the same line toward them. The two feared that if they ran, the grizzly would notice them and give chase, so they hid in a brush pile and hoped the big bruin would pass without any trouble.

Unfortunately for the bear, it was intent on getting its share of berries and came very near Twin and Auger. Frightened by the close encounter, Twin raised the rifle she was carrying and fired. Her aim was dead on. The grizzly was struck in the head and fell dead.

Bella�s bear was no ordinary griz. Its skull scored 26 5/16, placing it at the top of the list of Boone and Crockett world�s records where it stayed for many years. The bear currently ranks number 30 among the all-time records and still stands as the longest-reigning provincial big-game record in Alberta.

In the half century since Twin killed her record grizzly, many differing accounts of the incident have been given. However, all of them agree on one thing: little Bella Twin killed that 1,000-pound-plus griz with the humblest of all rifles�a single-shot, bolt-action, .22-caliber rimfire. With just one long-rifle cartridge, this petite Cree Indian grandmother finished off one of the biggest grizzlies ever documented and earned remembrance as one of the world�s truly legendary hunters.

Thats an awesome story Salmonella.

Justin I do agree about the double lung shot; won't make it but a hop-skip-and-a-jump away. As long as its not in the alders!

Have been mulling over this issue some more as well. I do like the 30-06, but am now leaning towards a 308. Just love a short action, and I can get my Remington 600-Mohawk. I was reading about bullets for re-loading, and though I don't reload (yet!) my father does extensive load work for his 308's. So cranking a few out wouldn't be an issue.

Any recommendations as far as bullets go?
180 grain seems to be the standard
.308" (7.62mm) 180 grain, Sectional Density .271
Though a 220 grain seems interesting. (A woodleigh bullet. People seem to love these for bear from what i've read)
.308" (7.62mm) 220 grain, SD .331 (Just for interesting comparison numbers, obviously not apples/apples and one measurement 'SD' is not indicative of total performance .375" (.375) 300 grain, SD .305)

Seems like a 220grain might be pushing the "You could, but why?" area as the seating depth may interfere with powder capacity and diminish velocity. Could tilt the scales towards a 30-06 for some extra oomph.
Any experience with this particular issue? May warrant another topic in a more relevant thread.




Ballistic stats are from article by Chuck Hawks article
http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

25-35 works for me, once between the eyes, DRT...

Dude you are all over the place. Why would you be leaning twards a 308 when you have a 7-08? the difference is practicly zero. Even a 30-06 from your 7-08 isint much. If recoil is an issue and a 375 H&H is to much to handle maybe you should consider needle point or something that is moore suitable to you.

Real men shoot a minimum of a 505 Gibbs, and hold the rifle butt against their crotch when they shoot, none of this sissy shoulder fired stuff.

Leaning towards the 308 because it has larger and heavier projectiles than the 7-08. Also that the 30-06 compared to 308 is near the same as well. As mentioned earlier in this thread

Get your father to load you a 210 gr Partition over 56 gr of IMR 4064. Good for about 2700 +/- with very reasonable recoil. The Weatherby factory ammo ($$$) would give you the same (more or less) ballistics and the deal is done. Or you could experiment with the various premium 225 grains good for 2600 +. I have never hunted a large bear though I hope to (I have killed 40 +/- CA pigs with this load but would not be arrogant enough to compare the two animals). If a 30-06 does the job, a .338-06 adds a little frosting without giving you a detached retina in the process.

After having done an egregious amount of reading, I believe I have firmly decided on caliber. 358 Winchester - Gives excellent projectile weights and energy, sufficient killing power, some factory ammo, and easy re-sizing of 308 cases in the future. Also is a non-magnum caliber. Might have found my golden ticket

Gonna build one or buy one already chambered?

This hits the nail on the head for me.

A certain range of combinations instill in me a level of comfort, whereas combinations outside the guardrails of my range do not instill comfort. If I go too far out the bottom end of this range of combinations, it starts to feel like a stunt trying to kill big dangerous animals with sub-level chamberings. If I go too far over the top end of this range of combinations, I feel over-gunned with a bigger chambering than I can effectively manage.

With that in context, I am not an AK resident and I require a professional to assist me with their big bears. As a result of this, I must defer to that professional's expertise on my chosen chambering that falls within my personal comfort range. If feedback from that professional is that my choice is too much of a stunt and that I'd be better served stepping up a notch or two within my comfort range, I'd do so. If feedback from that professional is that my choice is too far over the top and that I'd be better served stepping down a notch or two within my comfot range, I'd do so. If on the other hand, if I get a green light for my chosen combination within my comfort zone, I'd not worry one bit and I'd go forth and hunt big bear with confidence.

I see nothing but bad stuff resulting from a hunter relying upon a firearm that is outside the bounds of their comfort level.

Best

I guess this means the thread is over...


I'm happy that your original desire for an 8 1/2 to 9 lb. rifle, handling 350 to 400 yard shots was achieved. I'm positive you'll have easy access finding a plethora of varying factory loads for the Winny.

Good luck on the Brown Bear hunt. Remember to take lots of pictures and post them back here upon your return...

best,
bhtr

Just an observation but it might not be a bad idea for the OP to see if he can hook up with chums or relatives who hunt and who might have a variety of rifles chambered for different cartridges; spring for some ammo,and actually fire these rifles himself.

This way he can see where the upper levels of his comfort zone and recoil tolerances might land.He might find that it is higher than he thinks,and does not preclude things like a 338 or 375H&H.

Especially, since Dad is a handloader, it would be no real trick to load a 375H&H "down" with 4064 or RL15 until it approximates a 358 Winchester,and still maintain that 8-9 pound rifle weight.(I bet he could do much the same with a 338 Win Mag)And after the use of such light loads in the 375 over an extended time frame,he could (if he wants)boost charges up to full throttle level after his comfort level is determined.Handloading is a wonderful equalizer.

With the 358, you're operating at the end of the road...no where to go.But with the 375H&H throttled back,you have plenty of room to go up if desired,moderate recoil,plenty of bullets worthy of the task and factory ammo just about anywhere to cover those unforeseen contingencies.....Just a thought.

Have several qualifiers:

1) Modified model 700 in .416 Remington Magnum with 21" barrel, Timney trigger and Williams aperture sight.
2) Savage model 116 "Alaskan Brush Hunter" in .375 RUM with 18" barrel and 3-9x40mm Leupold Rifleman scope mounted with Warne QD mounts so the excellent iron sights can be accessed in seconds.
3) Marlin model 1895G "Guide Gun" in .45-70 GVT with X/S sighting system and 2-7x33mm Leupold Rifleman scope mounted with Warne QD mounts so the excellent iron sights can be accessed in seconds..
4) Marlin model 1895GS "Guide Gun" in .45-70 GVT with pretty decent factory sights and 2-7x33mm Leupold Rifleman scope mounted with Warne QD mounts so the pretty decent iron sights can be accessed in seconds.

Man, nice post. I think I upchucked my dinner when I read, ya a 7/08 is fine!!!! Please, like ya dude if you can drive a Ford Ranger GOOD load a ton of stone in her leave the F=250 home. I was born at night but not last night. My pick goes to the H+H. like you say limbsaver recoil pad and M. brake if recoil is your girlie thing. I shoot a .300RUM good to better but all means nothin when X hairs are on the boiler room target. Lucky you hear the bang from the rifle.....later

.300 RUM?
I thought we were talking about hunting bear...,,......not ptarmigan.

LOL, like that. I've only used the .300 for blackies in my neck of the woods, but in the beautiful last frontier for browns like I said H+H all the way. Like Garth Brooks sings I hunt deer in posted places....later

Ole Elmer couldn't have said it any better...

DF

STAINLESS RUGER WITH CANOE-PADDLE STOCK - .338 MAG - LEUPOLD OR BURRIS 1-4 SCOPE.

Terry

I am selling this for a friend. Weatherby mkV in 375 H&H, has been ported, McMillan stock, Leupold Vari=x 2.5 x8. Rifle weighs just short of 9 pounds on my scale.
This would probably be what I would take on a bear hunt if I had the oportunity!

Nicely put, Mark.

LOL

When seconds count, Police is minutes away...

Nice looking wood there! Is that an Accuracy Innovations wood stock? Checkering looks familiar.


A lot of folks mention the H&H, especially given its history. Guess I just want to be different. Tis quite helpful to get the input of everyone here. Thanks again

Not wood, just nice grain in that plastic!

Thanks, Carl.

Ein Troll, den dieser Mann ist.

Mark

Bwahahaha!

As if a conclusion matters..........

For the Love of God, speak English!

Bitte, mein Herr, haben Sie ein Streichholz?

Carl,

A very nice pun...
well done sir

The old time answer used to be - "Not since Superman died!"

Gentlemen,
A great discussion. I love to hear from the old Sourdoughs and references to ivory hunters. I used to work in SE on the mainland once in a while and saw bears everyday. It is humorous to think back on my first trip in about 1980 carrying a Ruger .44 mag and running into a set of tracks the size of a dinner plate with water oozing back into them, surrounded by thick alders and salmon with claw marks in them.

I carried rifles after that using what I had, a Ruger .270, then a .444 Marlin and later a Model 71 in .348 that I got from my great uncle Merrill of Granger, WY.

I agree about shot placement and practice. The worst scenario is a nimrod that borrows a gun that he is afraid of and doesn't take the time to learn to shoot it. Native Alaskans are notorious for being under gunned. They "shoot em in the ear, and follow them until they drop."

Everyone talks trash from an armchair,shooting an animal in the "Ear" is great,but most of us Cheechakos would rather have it dead,Old Timer told me killing a huge Brownie is easy,stopping it is an altogether matter.Might be something to think about................

Sandrat,
It ain't trash if you've been there.