Sorry for being off topic, but it is a sav cal, does anyone know if a pump action rifle/carbine was ever chambered in the 250.

To stretch things a little more, if you were going to do a project like this, what would be the ideal make and model to play with.

Pumps arn't big over but I believe they still have a strong following in the US, humor me fellas i'm bored today.

Johno

I know Remington pumps have been put out in 300 Savage for specials, but never heard of a 250 Savage.

Only Savage pumps I'm aware of are the model 170's. 30-30 and 35 Remington calibers.

John,

The Remington 760 can pretty much be re-barreled for any reasonable caliber that you want. Good strong action and slicker than owl [bleep]. Many old used ones available for relatively small bucks.

George

I have heard of Remington M760s being rebarreled to
.22-250 (dont ask me why) so a 250 Savage should be
no problem.

Only problem would be figuring out which magazine works best with the .250, and then finding some. I would bet that either the .244/.257R or the .243/.308 might work, but the best match would be the .300 Savage mags. Not easy to find any more!

FYi, there ARE many used 760s out there, but by FAR the greatest number are .30-06s or .270s. The shorter cartridge versions (.222, .223, .243, .244, .257, .300, .308, .35, and .358) are much less common. Probably the most common of the short ctg. versions is the .308 (several Federal agencies once used first the .30-06 and then the .308 versions for service rifles back in the 1950s and early 1960s). Some local and state police also used them, mostly in the same two calibers. I suspect they liked them because they were also using 870s or some other pump riot gun.

I do not mean to hijack this thread but since we are going off topic do not forget to include the 7600 in .35 Whelan. I recently picked up a sweet custom modified to an 18.5 inch carbine. It cured my itch for a 99 in .358 for a while. I'm going to use it for bear drives in the laurel thickets this fall.

Very nice rifle!

This all came about when a friend said he had heard, seen, believed. A 250sav pump was out there for sale, it nver surfaced. But it got me thinking. And George the 760 was actually the rifle I thought would be good for a build. Un fortunately they are not as common here, I look at G.B and weep at the prices as its now impossible to bring them out due to the cost.

Rom thats a sweaty, and would'nt boot much at all LOL

Johno

I have not even had the chance to shoot it yet. I'm sure it is going to be a fire breathing dragon in low light! LOL!!!

Just been doing a bit more research on the 760. For a short time after the war the made them in 30 M.1 & 22 Hornet. You blokes ever seen one in those calibres, bet that would be very rare. Also checked remingtons listing of calibres and no 250-3000, seems odd they offered them in about evrything else.

There is 2 in 300sav on G.B,

Johno

I have a 760 in 300 Savage. It shoots great. I can neck size the ammo, so it must not have a real tight chamber. I don't run the loads hot either.

Original 760s are going up in price, unfortunately. Some need full-length resizing to chamber reloads. Is that because the chambers are undersized, or because some are oversized and the cases swell at the head. I've heard this is mainly a problem with .35 Rem for some reason (also with the same caliber in T/C Contenders). Hot handloads probably aren't a great idea in 760s for slick function. They are strong enough, God knows, but dependent on close-to-factory ammo dimensions to shuck smoothly.

I'm looking for a 760 on my road trip with my bro from SeaTac to Big Timber MT to pick up a rifle at C.Sharps. We'll be going across WA to Lewiston, ID, then up Lolo Pass (12) to Missoula, then Interstate to Big Timber. Then probably back to Missoula, down 12 to Orofino ID, and up to Moscow by the back way to look at my old house there, Then up to Spokane and the Interstate back to SeaTac.

Anybody got any favorite gunshops that aren't too far off that route? I'm looking for a C&R 7.65/.32ACP auto for a shooter (to add to my "Leroy Brown Commemorative Guns" nasty .32 collection) and a nice but not too nice 760 in any short "deer" caliber.

I have sure never heard of a Remington M760 chambered in .30 M1 or .22 Hornet. I've been around long enough that I have to really doubt that occurred. Plus, those cartridges would require significant alterations. By the way, I do like the looks of that custom .35 Whelan that was pictured. I have a custom Mauser in a .35 Whelan Improved and this is one nice cartridge.

The Scarborough Cabela's had a Rem 760A in 300 Savage last week. IIRC, the money asked for was in the mid 300s. Again, IIRC barrel code indicated that the DOM to be 1952, the first year of 760 production. Looked to be in pretty good shape. Worth a call if you are looking.

I believe most Remington pump rifles are sold in the
PA and NY areas. Every time I visit PA I see a fair amount
of 760s and 7600s for sale. I was there in June and saw
a 7mm-08 for sale, didnt check the price.

The only times I can think of that you should have trouble with neck sizing ammunition as opposed to full sizing is if the magazine won't handle the expanded case, or if the chamber isn't exactly round. If the chamber is a bit off, then you can only re-insert a neck sized cartridge in the same position as it was when it was fired.

Oh, the third time you might have problems with neck sized cases is if you try to fire them in another rifle. Cost me $25 to learn that and to get the gunsmith to unstick the bolt on that rifle.

Boltman
When the fellow told me they came in hornet and M.1 carbine I was a little less polite than you. But I am having a nice crisp white wine with my humble pie. LOL
Heres the link as I copied it
http.remingtonsociety.com/rsajournals/M760N/?na=5
Hope you can make sense of that. It seems after WW 2.production resumed with three action lengths, including the cals I mentioned. We don't see many 760s at all down here, and in those cals, even in the US I would expect to be extremely rare. Well off topic, but its funny how something can run to very intersting information

John

Remington Model 760= Amish Assault Rifle.

Grice's Gun Shop in Clearfield Pa. had a special run of 7600's chambered for .257 Bob a few decades back. I would think if they could do that, 250 would be no problem. Grice's get's a lot of unusual stuff from the factory. Maybe they'd consider contracting with Remmy to make a run of these?

Grice's Gun Shop did a special run of 300 Savages about 3 or 4 years back. Took quite a while to sell them all I think, I was shaking my head the whole time thinking they should have gone with 250 Savage.

Johno - I am really confused now. My understanding is they started manufacturing the M760 in 1958. So, when you mention resuming production after WWII, I really get lost. In addition, three action lengths - again I get lost. I've never collected these however, so perhaps someone who knows more on this topic can jump in

If you find a map and a compass bearing let me know, I am lost also. You are correct, I think. Though I thought it was early 50s

Did that link for you?

Johno

There's a reason for that. They were asking full bull steep retail prices. After they had held them for a couple years I contacted them to see about a trade price for FFLs. No response. Guess they'd rather hold them than sell them. They must have deep pockets to hold them as long as it took to sell them.

Johno's link

I read that there where three prototype length actions for various cartridges in 1943.

It goes on to say that the 760 was then introduced to the public in 1952 in three cal. 30-06, 300sav and 35 rem.

Thanks for the link, Johno (and the assist, Grogel). I'd plum forgot that they made 760s in .280 Rem. And I'm surprised that they made so few in .35 Rem. My guess is that most of those are still in the East (and still being used). I saw a recently- manufactured .223-chambered Rem pump being carried in a BLM cop car last year when I was out in the CA desert. He said it was his, not issue. (For that duty, I'd prefer a plain old .308 version with a compact 4x myself. Some of the "coyotes" out there tend to shoot back.....)

Another option might be the Rem #8, it was made in 25 Rem. If the 250 Sav cleans up the barrel chamber and you can find a 300 Sav bolt head.............

Or hey, how about Savage 99 in .250-3000. Now there would be something!

That would be special gnoahh, but as I said in my first post it all started as a comment from a friend. The thread then got a life of its own, seems to happen.

Thanks for providing the link GD, I only have dial up so was reading as it down loaded in dribs and drabs, shoulda paid more attention, going to the library and get on a more modern system and have a good read.

Being prot types I guess those cals never made it outside. My friend tells me he knows of one in Tasmania, he also assures the the Tasmanian Tiger is alive and well

Johno

The best pump rifle ever made IMHO was the Remington model 14 and 141.

Made those in 25 rem as well. Not easy to find, but I have seen them out there. Doubt that it could be converted to 250 Savage. Somebody that knows way more about gunsmithing than I do will have to pick up the ball on that one.

The recoil-operated Reminton 8s and 81s aren't readily converted to ctgs. other than their original "family". I've never seen one converted except a .32 rebarreled to .30, and a .25 converted to .30. Presumbaly these were done when the .32 and .25 Rem shells stopped being readily available, while the .30 hung on for quite a few years.

When I was a kid the local cattle baron packed an 81 Remington auto in .300 Savage. We were raised on .25-20s and .30-30s and thought it was a serious cannon! I never saw any other deer rifle than a Winchester lever or a bubbulized Jap rifle or Krag until I was hunting in the Santa Lucias behind Big Sur CA in the late 1950s, and met a retired doctor who had a Win 70 in .270. With, of all things, a telescopic sight! (I'd HEARD of those newfangled things....still don't like 'em much.).

Gary - thanks for posting a link that worked. Very interesting reading. I know the M760 has been a popular hunting rifle for many decades and has accounted for all kinds of deer and other big game. In Pennsylania, where they haven't allowed semi-autos to hunt big game with for many years, it was hugely popular. Personally, I never cared for them. My main complaint is they rattle like a tin can. Now the M14 and M141 are a very different story. I admire most aspects of those rifles. In fact, as we are off-topic anyway, I'll try to scrounge up some pictures of one here. By the way, it seems to me I have seen a Remington M08 rechambered to .250 Savage. I have several M08's and M81's and they are a favorite to take to the range. I bought my first M08 in .35 Rem. probably 35 years ago. It was used and I paid $67.50 for it. It accounted for many deep woods Minnesota deer. I still have it.

Here's a picture of a nice 141 in .35 Remington that I have in my archives (and in my safe).

This one doesn't rattle at all.

Here's a picture of a M14 I have in .35 Remington. This one doesn't rattle at all either. Remember, it was the M760 I accused of being a rattler

That's a nice one.

Man were really off topic here!! the only one of those beasts i have is a 14 1/2 in 44-40 winchester ,if it wasn't a winchester caliber i wouldn't own it !!!!! Don

That is one of the nicest 14's I have ever seen. 14's and 141's are real sleepers in my book. I'm surprised they don't have a bigger following and aren't more highly collectable and hence more valuable than they are. For any of you that haven't ever had the pleasure of shouldering one and shooting one...they are sweet.

Randy

Mmmm, they are nice rifles

Hey Don, thats the beauty of an off topic thread, you can take it anywhere you like. Feel free if you have the urge

Johno

Great! I get to say how much I like my Model 14 in .35 Rem! Made in 1928, and it's been used, but then, I like rifles with sweat on them. Really slick, nice handling, easy kicking rifle.

C'mon--you guys that complain about the 760 being a rattler just never learned to sit still! Anyway that's what my momma would say. (Adult ADD even handicaps deer hunters? Learn something new every day! Or is it just that high-test joe?).

Agree about the 14/141 being sweet pumps, tho. And its baby brother, the 25.

I got a buddy who had a 141 in 35 rem rechambered to 358 win,totally different animal now !!!!! Don

Don - a .358 in a M141 would be an interesting gun. I assume it works well for him? As long as we are off topic and Mike Armstrong mentioned the M25 - here are a few pictures of a M25 Carbine in .32-20 that I have. It doesn't rattle either

Beautiful 25! Love it; never could find one that I could afford. Most people tht have 25s would sell their mother first.... When I was a kiddie, people used to shoot deer with those things. Of course a big blacktail where I lived was 100 pounds with the guts out! And the real problem in getting them was snakin' the bullet thru the manzanita branches (and not stepping on a snake while you were snakin') and into the deer. I never got a shot over about 60 yards.

A lot of deer have fallen to the .25/20 and .32/20. Not long distance shots but real, "hunting" where you actually work to get close (even if you had to go over snakes). Speaking of rattlers, back to the M760, I agree that up in the stand you should be able to calm yourself enough to not rattle the thing when you hold it. However, stealth hunting through the deep woods where you might come on a deer that is real close - is no place for a gun that rattles

See how much fun off topic is

What would the correct model designation be for the 30 M.1 & 22 Hornet be?

Johno

Johno - again, I had never seen or heard of these calibers in the M760. They've got to essentially be prototype rifles. I will say this, pumps are fast! I was just talking to a fellow last evening who uses a vintage Colt Lightning (in .44/40 I believe) for Cowboy Action shooting and he is a real believer in the speed of these rifles. By the way, I'm using a bit of restraint in not posting a few pics I have of some Colt Lightnings I have here. And a bit of restraint in not pulling out the camera to photograph a Colt Lightning Express rifle in .40-60 that arrived here a couple of weeks ago. The medium frame Colt pump rifles are pretty dainty to carry in the hand (mine are both SRC's) but that large frame express rifle is a real beast - on the order of a M1876 Winchester.

Post those pics! It is summer time and slow here.

I've always liked the .25-20 round. I first saw a Rem 25 right after I started buying/collecting guns. Of course it was more than I had. But I still have a mental picture of that rifle in my head. Forward about 30 years...I found and bought two in .25-20. One to set on the shelf and look at and one to shoot. The second one was in great shape also but D&T'ed with a side mount. It's a great little rifle. I've put a lot of rounds through it. Still looking for a Lyman (R25) tang sight for the other one.

I inherited my grandfathers Model 25 in 25-20. His was drilled and tapped since I can remember. It sat in his gun cabinet for 30 years till he died. I really think I was the last person to fire it prior to his death. I put a new scope on it took it to the range and after getting somewhat used to the 20 pound (it seems)trigger pull, it shot amazingly well for a gun last made in 1939. I proceeded to kill lots of groundhogs with it last summer. I wouldn't think twice about hunting deer back east with it, provided I again upgraded the scope. For the ranges I encountered back there, it would be perfect. P.S. He also had a 141 in .32 Remington. Oh yeah and as for Amish Assault Rifles, that's a no go, they don't use firearms but do use bows and crossbows!

The Amish I've met in Potter County PA use Remington 870's for just about everything. They carry them in their buckboards and road hunt the hell out the area.

My Amish neighbors, years ago in Penna., had an 870 and a 760 tucked out in the barn. The kids hammered around in a Chevy convertible they kept in another neighbor's barn, up until marrying age. Then it was back to the horse and buggy. Nice folks, if a little hypocritical. They did let me shoot groundhogs out in their fields (46 one summer, 41 the next- it was polluted with them) and kept me in eggs and beef, and horse apples for my garden.

Post the pics, we are running at 6 pages for an O.T. whats the record?

We spoke some time back about my Colt Lightening in 44-40 Boltman, its was in exceptional condition. Sold a few months back for $3000.00 AUD about $2,600.00USD. Just a bad time when I needed money, guess we have all been in the very uncomfortable spot. Managed to hold onto my chequed straght stock F though

Johno

Ok, as long as somebody asked for it, here is a pair of Colt Lightning SRC's, one is .38/40 and the other is a .44/40. One is a, "baby carbine." One is full nickel plate and the other is nickel receiver and nickel trim. What I need to do is take some pictures of the latest addition, the .40/60 Express rifle. Continuing in the off-topic venue ;0 a pair of Colt Express rifles in .50/95 recently came up for sale and I was sorely tempted.

While we're off topic, let's not forget to discuss the wrist action pump .44/40 and other caliber rifles. Here's a .44/40 two barrel set that I was discussing with the owner just last night. He very recently received it and has already tried it out. Both barrels even shot to point of aim!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...e_Burgess_Slide_Action_Rifle#Post4270122

Once again off topic, but several years ago I saw a Remington
Model 14 or a 141 in .25 Remington caliber. Very well used
gun, didnt buy it, and it was the only pump .25 Remington
I ever encountered.

I'll bet it was a M14 as I don't think that caliber carried into the M141. Just like it was chambered in the M08 but not the M81. Of course, never say never.

Well I have enjoyed this, seen some great old rifles and learned more than when I started the thread.

Johno
P.S.
Still can't work out how they missed building it in 250 sav

Johno - stay tuned. The old boltman had his camera out today so I photographed some rifles I have never photographed before. All off-topic, but all vintage pumps. Well, one is a .35 Remington that is both a pump and a semi-auto By the way, I'm sure some here will remember a prototype Marlin .250-3000 pump. I know I've seen pictures of it but can't recall at the moment. I'll bet someone here has more info.

I believe the Marlin prototype in .250 Savage was a
Model 336 lever action.

I often wished that someone would once more do the story on Bill Ruger taking a 99 Savage in 250 and making an auto. carbine out of it, when he was young. If I remember correctly, he said the 99 should have never been a lever-action. But either a pump or automatic. I love the way Ruger went back to a rifle that looked much like the 99. Any info on this story?? Haven't seen it in years.Thanks.

336 250-3000 Look close and you can see that it has spiral magazine to allow the use of pointed bullets.

Come on Boltman, waiting, waiting, waiting

Johno

Thanks Gene. Interesting rifle. I'm thinking of a prototype clip fed pump action Marlin. By the way Gene, any luck finding a Standard Arms .50 caliber camp carbine?

Sorry Johno - lots' going on here. But, I got the pictures taken today - I'll try to get them posted tomorrow. I'm glad someone is eager to see them

An old thread on it.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2704331

Here's the pic of Ruger's converted 99 as posted by elwood.



Here's an article on it also.

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2010/02/04/Join-NRA-National-Firearms-Museum-Feb-12.aspx

Thanks a million for all the effort you put in to finding that info for me. I've kicked myself a thousand times for getting rid of the magazine the article was in . It showed the gun taken apart and his story of how he built it. Thanks again!!

Rory
Thanks so much for the article, this has been an interesting journey. Looking forward to Boltmans pics tomorrow.

Was there only the one proto type semi auto made? Looking at that pic i'm sure he could have made a pump action also

Johno

So, no one has the information on the Marlin clip-fed .250 pump? I seem to recall it sold on auction a while back. Anyway Johno, I'm downloading pictures this morning. Here's the Colt .40/60 pump. Certainly not as sleek and petite as a Savage 1899 but it has a nice beast-like quality to it:

Johno - the above rifle has a 28 inch octagon barrel. Holds quite a few more ca'tridges than a '99 Let me know when you are ready for more (I photographed two other rifles when I had the camera out yesterday).

The Standard Auto did come in 25 Rem, it was sort of a pump action or gas as the spirit moved one. I have it in the 25 Rem and a pump only in 35 Rem

Hey All: Just got a notice from James Julia Auctions, Oct.5-6,2010. Didn't see any 99's, but they are having from the late Richard Rahal Collection of Marlins, .250 Sav. pump. Also a M3000 lever in .250 Sav. I won't be going, too-o-o deep for me.

... 99 LL ...

I guess the Colt would be rather barrel heavy on an off hand shot, to my eye the carbines look nicer. Beautifull rifle though. What else ya got?

99 LL is there an internet catalogue on that auctio, all I get to do down here is drool over the stuff at your auctions

Not sure if we have an FFL here, maybe George. If we do and you have time, can you look at the export of relic/currio. I believe anything over 50 years old, I am told this gets past the $250.00 State Dept licence fee for modern rifles. There is still a fee but cheaper, if anyone knows an exporter i'd appreciate the info

Its for all those Ts in 22 h.p. ive got hidden away over there

Johno

Johno - the Colt Large Frame Express rifle does feel a bit heavy to get off a quick offhand shot but maybe back when men were men it wasn't an issue? I see that reference has occurred again to Standard Arms so here is a .35 Remington I have. I've had it to the range many times and five shots quick is an enjoyable experience with it. I did cut my head open with it once - it shoots brass straight up and bounced an empty case off the roof over the benches - the sharp end of the case mouth cut the top of my head. I survived of course. Now, I always wear a hat when I shoot it






[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...20remington/StandardArms35022cropped.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...20remington/StandardArms35017cropped.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...20remington/StandardArms35016cropped.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2...20remington/StandardArms35012cropped.jpg[/img]

Here's a few more shots of the Standard Arms .35 Remington:

Gee got lot of finish of mate, great carving. We were talking over, some pretty experienced fellas and the 35 rem is very scarce. Thatreally is nice one.

If you have time have a look at 141s in 35rem on guns international, tell which you think would be the pick of the crop. Little more pricey than I thought but its an international site so that may explain it.

Johno

Johno:

Check out gunbroker.com. There are several listed there. The 14's and the 141's in 35 Rem are still fairly common.

I think they (35 Rems) bring a higher price than the other calibers because 35 Rem ammo in the states is still being made and very easy to come by.

Can't go wrong with a 14 or a 141 in 35 Rem. If you find one...you won't be disappointed.

Good luck.

Randy

Back a number of years ago I bought a Remington 14 1/2 from an elderly gentleman who had bought it through an ad in the AR back in the 30's. I remember seeing the ads (not at the time however) from Hudson in New York. They also advertised Winchester 1892 and 1886 models, as well as Colt New Services. I believe they would buy obsolete models and sell them out at what were then very reasonable prices.

The Remington was in 44/40, and in excellent condition, except for a scratch about an inch and a half long extending down and back from the ejection port. I loaded three or four rounds of reloads, and found they would not feed. The cartridges slid vertically up the face of the carrier in slots, and those slots were very snug. I then found out, as I was trying to pry the stuck cartridge out the carrier, where the scratch on the receiver was from, as it was joined by another, nearly identical.

I never did get around to shooting it, but sold it to a local gun dealer/gun smith who thought it would be ideal for wild pigs. I had told him about the feeding problem, but he was planning to use factory loads. He discovered that he could not get even a twelve inch group at fifty yards, and some of the bullets were not strikinng exactly head on. He measured the bore, and found it was so oversize that it would not be possible to chamber a cartridge with a sufficiently large bullet, even if you could solve the feeding problem.

I doubled the money I paid for it, and he made a profit on it, selling it to a collector who wasn't concerned about shooting it.

Johno - Remington M14's and M141's aren't too hard to find. They're real sleepers in my book. If a forum like the Savage forum were devoted to them, in a few years you would see prices rise signficantly. The Savage 99 used to have similar status to the Remington pumps until they started to become, "collectable." The .35 Remington is the most popular because ammunition is dramatically easier to obtain than any of the other calibers. Plus, it is a darn good hunting caliber. Hey, the O.T. thread you started has really taken off - about 1000 views and the weekend hasn't even started! If you want to see a high finish gun, check out this Model 14 and 1/2 I have in .44/40:

Once again slightly off topic of this thread, I was at a
gunshow back in the 90s and saw a Savage pump in .300 Savage
caliber, at first I thought it was a Remington 141, but it
was stamped Savage. Seller had it tagged as a R&D gun,
dont remember the price, and it wasnt a Model 170.

Jericho - pretty hard to get in trouble for being off topic on an off topic thread. That sure sounds like an interesting Savage pump rifle. I wonder if anyone knows where it ended up? Seems like a gun for an advanced Savage collector

Just looked at the James Julia auction listing - partial picture of the pump in 250 Savage is shown - Marlin pump It has the special Swebilus rear sight which, if contemporary, would date it to around 1916 ~ 1920.

I'm not sure that's the one I remember or not. I do recall it was a Marlin pump in .250 with a box magazine. I seem to recall the prototype I saw (I only saw a photo) was more square as far as lines. This one is pretty neat. Gene - is this an old auction?

Here is the patent on the sight - (I spelled the name wrong on my previous post - I still don't think it's need the 2nd 'I' though ...sorry Gus)Swebilius sight August 1915

Here are some patents on the Marlin rifle including one for a semi-auto version, earliest 1914;
Patent 1
patent 2
patent 3
patent 4
patent 5

steve, I think its the upcoming October Julia's sale... FDR's Fox FE grade is going to be for sale!!! Likely to be the most expensive American made SxS to ever sell in the public view...

Drew - I know you are a Fox guy so I figure you will have to have FDR's gun. How could you ever forgive yourself if you don't bring it home?

Gene - you can always be counted on for the highly technical stuff. Very interesting. I like the sight detail but also interesting to note that they were working on both a pump and semi-auto version. A Marlin semi-auto in .250 circa around 1920 - what a deal. I want one! I often think that if I were to win a big powerball, I would be digging up patent drawings like this and commission the building of rifles that never got off the ground. This would be a neat example. There are patent drawings of rifles from John Browning, Andrew Burgess etc. that might have been really neat rifles. Another one I would have built would be one like the Savage .32/20 prototype

working on the home refinance paper work as we speak... already cashed in the 401K and sold my right kidney...I'm about a 1/4 of the way there...

Persistence wins the game. I'm estimating that Jackie's kidney will fetch more than yours?

her's has not filtered quite the load of "stuff" that mine has so its a little cleaner...and thus yeah, worth a bit more...

Johno - I did get a chance to go over to gunsinternational.com and took a look at all the Remington 14's and 141's listed there. What they heck - do these sellers think they have Savages or what? I was surprised at how pricey most were. Puglisi's had a, "clean" one for around $2500, LeRoy Merz had some showing some wear for about $1700. There were lesser ones there as well but it sure looks like when a guy finds a decent one of these priced reasonable, he would be wise to pick it up. By the way, I was reminded how much I like the M14 carbine. They didn't make a carbine (that I can recall) in the M141. Also, I like the M14 and 1/2 carbine real well too, but I didn't see any examples listed. How often do run into any of these pumps down your way?

Johno - by the way, did you do any shooting or hunting with that Colt Lightning you had?

AHHHHHHHH, clutches on ATVs "*&%$$#@

Feeling better now, she's back together and running well, just needed to share.

No I never hunted that rifle, I do think I sent you some photo's it was as close to a 90% carbine as you would find. Thing I should have taken it to the States to sell.

There is some beautifull rifles being posted here, I am gratefull the mods have let this O.T run, have'nt to well of late and this has been enjoyable.

Tell me what would the beaut marlin 250 pump be expected to sell for, a great deal me thinks.

If someone could provide a link to that auction i'd be gratefull, ive bee to the web site but can't get the catalogue.

It does seem mate that those rifles on guns international are over priced.

Johno

Johno -

Here is the highlight to the "selected highlights" section of the auction catalog. A lot of Dick Rohal's Marlins are featured in these highlight (remind me, I've got to go empty my drool bucket). As far as what that pump .250 will bring, I have no idea. This is an auction and desire, competition, ego and so on can all come into play. It just takes two guys who have to have it and have deep pockets. I would enjoy owing that rifle.

http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/div_catalog_296_sh.asp

Johno - where'd you go? Your off topic thread is going to hit 2500 views before too long By the way, the old Boltman suffered the agony of defeat this weekend. I was bidding on a rifle I had been searching for - for over 30 years. It is a vintage American pump rifle and it is a .50 caliber and it's NOT a Colt. Who here has one?

If that ever happens here are some more for you to make!!!

These would be of interest to Savage collectors to make -
Savage toy gun For those with kids...
Double barrel '99' For Drew (the double barrel guy) and those who use their 410 barrels but would rather not have to swap them in and out. This was designed to disengage the bolts from the lever so that either side could be fired and cycled independant of the other or together if both side had been fired...if the breech bolts are disengaged when loaded - how do you unchamber a live round???? I'll have to read more of the patent, and I find them hard to read.
Pump action roughly based on a 99

Here a couple you would probably NOT want to make--
??????? for the musky fisherman who still wants to dispatch his catch with a pistol but doesn't want to be easily busted...
Buglar Alarm
revolver This one from 1909 is referenced by four other patents from 1977 to 2003

...and here are some pump rifles, 1895 to 1910 - no shotguns - no major manufacturer (no manufacurer period, for most!!!)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

Holy smoke Gene! Lots to digest here. I am thinking though my powerball pick will be the double barrel M99. I have seen one Burgess made up similar to that - shotgun action/barrel oneside; rifle action/barrel other side. (I'd better run out and buy a couple extra tickets).

Gene, is it just me or does it seem that when the task of entering all that pat. info was done, many of the firearms related items where miss spelled in such a way to make them hard to find.

Maybe if I searched for other types of patents I would find its not just gun stuff and I could put my tinfoil hat away.


Steve, I hope you havnt run out of OT guns to show us, Ive been enjoying your pictures and thinking about what you said at the fest about how as a child you ate gun catalogs.

Gary - here is an off-topic rifle for you to puzzle over. Here's an initial picture:

Is this the one you didnt get today?

Actually they spell beter than I do - I just write my posts in WORD and use the spell checker before I post (I actually do!)

Seriously though all US patents before 1976 are only stored as scanned .tif files and not as text. GOOGLE uses text recognition software to try to decipher it, if you look at some of the stored scans they are not very clear of sharp, the software will read specks of dirt as part of a letter and miss light or missing areas - for example a B with a faded bottom will be read as a P, a P with a speck of dirt a B, a K could end up being read as a R, P, B, or b. You can see the problem. Most of the patents I have, I stored as pictures about 3 years ago from the US patent site, I filtered out just gun patents - their site is harder to use initially but makes it much faster to view patents once you have some filtered out. This is from their web site with the restrictions for the early patents -
"Patents from 1790 through 1975 are searchable only by Issue Date, Patent Number, and Current US Classification. When searching for specific numbers in the Patent Number field, patent numbers must be seven characters in length, excluding commas, which are optional"

You also must have a program capable of reading .tif files - they have a link to a couple of free ones which is what I used.

I recently tried to find a patent using just the date - there were 850+ patent assigned on that one day!!! I filter out the firearms patents and ended up with 3 but none of them were the ones, don't think just having a patent date will make finding a paticular patent easy!

I only use the Google site to relookup patents I had already found and then post that link because it does not require a special viewer.

Gene

As long as we are looking at pumps, here are some more Marlins - 22's though. 2nd up from the bottom is a model 32 and has the Swebilius rear sight - standard on those, pre WWI - it was also used for a short time after WWI on early model 38's, all I have seen with it are Marlin-Rockwell stamped. Those sights are very easily broken and many you see will be damaged (not that you really see many!).

I'm bck, typed a big reply Boltman after you posted the link, darn thing just disappeared. As did my reply here a few minutes ago. Don't know whats wrong, some fine fire arms i that auction. Anyone want to take a guess on the value of the marlin pump in 250?

darn shame you missed that rifle after waiting all that time, is is the one in your last picture? Looks to be an all metal .

Gene was that link to sav 99, a pump action design on a sav 99? Can't get it to open for me.

Surprised this thread generated so much interest, it has certainly been enjoyable for me and a clearly a lot of others

Johno

John,

Don't know if you can visualize an early 20th century American country store with an old potbelly stove and a bunch of chairs around it filled with good ole boys sipping coffee and telling tales. That's pretty much what you've got here. Everybody's got an opinion and everybody gets their chance to get listened to. Some know, some want to know and some will never know. There's bluff and blow and true knowledge with favorites and whipping boys. Its all free and most of its worth what you pay for it. Its up to you to snatch those little pearls of wisdom and squirrel them away. The companionship is what makes it work and for the most part we're all better for it.

George

Yes - that is the one I didn't get this past Saturday. The bidding was jumping in $100 increments as quick as a fully automatic rifle. As I was phone bidding I had the disadvantage of not being able to examine the rifle in the flesh. Later, through a friend who knew the winner I was able to obtain better pictures. That would have made a difference and I would have bid more had I seen those pictures or held the rifle. Oh well, maybe another one will come up for sale in another 35 years

Here's another shot of the forearm. It's ironic as the main reason I didn't blow through with a winning bid was the forearm. The picture I had to work with (prior to the auction) of the forearm was quite dark. I made the assumption that the brass exterior (i.e. moose/bear) sleeve was missing. I was unaware the forearm was checkered and obviously original. I had never seen a forearm like this and expected either brass or wood. That's what happens when you search for a rifle for over 30 years yet had never seen one or even a picture.

George,

Good words! I liked them so much I put them up in the "Misc. Good Things" sticky.

Steve, at least you know what you are looking for, now.

The cartridge is just listed as a .50 cal, buckshot or ball. Do you know what cartridge it shot? Have you seen one?

One time at the Saratoga NY gunshow (pre 2000)..Chas Yellott had a 'Peerless' engraved Rem 14 on the table for sale...it was like new and unfired. After the show,I went home and told my Pop about it. The next day Pop and I went to Chas to look over and buy the Mod 14. It had belonged to Harry Uhlein of Schlitz Brewing,and came from his estate in Lake Placid NY. Traded it for an 1899 SRC in 38-55 in the same condition and some cash and catalogs. Should of taken pictures of that one.

Rick - as best I can tell, the "camp rifle" sometimes referred to as a, "camp carbine" shot a variation of .50-70 cartridge. What a caliber departure for an action developed around the .30 Remington, .35 Remington, etc.

Jed - that peerless engraved M14 Remington sounds like an exceptional find. Of course a like new Sav. .38/55 SRC is nothing to sneeze at either. Both would fit in nicely here.

As Gary Grogel referenced in an earlier thread, I have been very enthused about this stuff since a young age. I still have the various free catalogs I picked up at gunshops and hardware stores as a young child. Vintage repeating rifles have had strong appeal going way back. My Dad hunted with a M1886 .33 Winchester when I was very young. I had an uncle with a Sav. .250 and I recall the year my cousin (who was a year or two older than me) used it to shoot a monster Minnesota whitetail. My grandfather used a M1886 .45/90 and I recall my grandmother mentioning that even though she would hear a lot of shooting during the course of a deer hunting season, she also new when it was the .45/90 that had been touched off. Also, my great uncle used a Winchester M1876 .40/60. As I started researching firearms I was enthralled to learn about the .50 caliber repeating rifles. First I learned about the .50 caliber M86's and then came awareness of the '76 Winchester in .50/95 and then the Bullard in .50/115 and the Colt Express pump in .50/95. Oh, and the Whitney-Kennedy in .50/95. Speaking of the Whitney-Kennedy in .50 caliber, I have located two in 30+ years and neither were for sale. And finally, the elusive Standard Arms .50 caliber camp rifle. I pined away for all of these - and the pining hasn't let up much. I guess this is just like George described, sitting around the potbelly stove with the good ole boys

George.
It must have started raining, I had us outside. Sitting beside a nice trout stream, listening to the red deer roar in the hills. Thats ok we can go in by the fire and pass one of them jugs around filled with the elixer the hill people make on dark foggy nights.

Steve, must be a heart breaker to miss that. I made a similar mistake on a 250-3000, still had the gunstore sticker on the side. Had a friend at the auction check it for me. He said it had a poor re finish job. Turned out to be what Jedd refers to as crocodile skin, it was all original the finish had just gone bad. It went cheap and was in top condition. Never look after the auction, only hurts ya.

Johno

Johno -

Never looking back is good advice, but I have trouble following it. I haven't given up on this rifle. I know the winning bidder got a bit carried away and went over his planned limit. He may have some buyer's remorse. He may find something else he wants more. I may even find another one. A friend had a lead on one in the last couple days.

Sitting beside a trout stream would be nice. I probably picked an indoor scenario, as you suggested, because I live in an area where it rains or is overcast close to 300 days a year. Either place would make for good conversation.

I'm getting thirsty just reading this.

Hard to have buyers remorse when they only go for 20.00

Gary - leave it to you to find a photo! This is the first advertising photo I have ever seen. Thank you much. I also now know that it held three shots total - I never knew that. It makes sense how much fatter the .50/70 cartridge is. I had expected they would have a wood forearm and that is what I expected on the rifle I bid on. Although the metal forend looked original to me. I understand some of these guns were made up from parts after the factory went under. Interesting that the ad states it is .50 caliber but gives no information beyond that. Also interesting that they don't specify it was a smoothbore. We know for sure the rifle didn't catch on and I am not surprised.

Johno - this is one heck of an interesting thread you started.

I found a website that says only 25 to 30 camp guns where ever made. Is that still the believed production number?

Yes, that's the number I keep hearing for production. One would think surviving specimens would be particularly low for a rifle that basically wasn't good for much and for which ammunition was likely extremely hard to find.

Well, I made you a shirt to wear to gun shows
Wanted shirt



Do you have any Idea how many are accounted for in collections?

That's a pretty attractive and sporty T-shirt Gary. However, I guess if I happened to walk up to a table at a gunshow and there was a Camp Rifle laying there, it would be difficult for me to play the, "barely interested" angle . Some years ago - ten or more - I talked to two different guys who collected these and had multiple specimens. Those were the only ones I had heard of in collections, until this one came up for auction.

Its sure been a fun thread, wandered all over the place. Now T shirts, and its a beaut. Buyers remorse, somehow I don't think ya should hold your breath on that, but you never know.

Johno

Gary - nope I am not out of O.T. interesting rifles to show. As you know, I like antique/vintage big bore repeating rifles a lot. Here's a teaser photo. A pair of American made big bore repeating rifles with round barrels and full length tubular magazines mounted underneath. These load in the bottom.

ward-burton no. 97?

Hint; They are bolt actions and have a external hammer, and one was used in the movie Cross Fire Trail.....(I think..maybe???? Boltman????)

You're on the right trail Gene. Also, the calibers have to be guessed - they are not the same.

Beau Dorn.

One has to be 45-70, the only caliber I remember hearing about, the other might be .43 spanish or I have seen what I thought was a misprint 60-40 (s/b 40-60 maybe??)

Remington-Keene Repeating Rifle, .45-70-405. My next guess before the hint was going to be burton-keene so I was getting close. My keene guess came from this ...

keene pantent

Steve, with the Ross, Remington-keene, and savage 99 all being in the movie Joe Kid makes me wonder if you didnt have a hand in that movie

Gene - you're a real ringer. Yes, one is .45/70. And yes, some were made in .40/60. Not many. But the other one is not a .40/60, it is marked .433 - it is a .43 Spanish. I have fired them both. These are nice big bore repeaters. Lots of firepower and hold plenty of shells.

Here's a couple more pictures:

Well you've met me Gary, so as you know, I'm not no Hollywood actor. And very unlikely to be "discovered" anytime soon . But it is very good to see vintage rifles used in these movies. I was quite impressed with the Ross placement in this movie. Here are a few shots:

Not really, I just accidently stumbled onto this info when trying to find out if any of these were ever made in 22 short! - they weren't, so that's why I don't have one.

gnoahhh I have always heard them referred to as the Amish machine gun, so be it. Cheers NC

Bad, Bad, Boltman just went off topic.
Where are the mods when ya need em

Johno

Johno - I did have my co-conspirators (And I'm sure names were taken). Hey, we'll hit 3000 views by this evening

Keep em coming Steve.

Ok - here's a scenario for you: you are being sent into a very remote wilderness region with minimal supplies. You are by yourself and you have to live off the land. You may be out in the wilderness for many years. You can bring one rifle from your existing collection. It must be a centerfire rifle. The only other caveat is that you can load the rifle but the only ammo you can bring is what fits in the rifle. So, no extra ammo. And, you will not be able to acquire any additional ammo while you out on this long adventure. So - what rifle would you project Boltman would bring? What would you bring? By the way, as this is an O.T. thread, it doesn't have to be a Savage, but it could be.

Evans first model if available, second model if not.

That looks like a second model with the 'sliding' hammer/stricker and not the 'swinging' one? I have a list of patents that I will be adding that would be even better!

A single shot with this stock would work - stock

Any gun that this magazine fits - Magazine

or one this stock could be added to - stock with magazine Now if that double barreled '99' double 99 could be fitted with this stock to feed the rifle side and the other side were .410 fed by the above magazine - you may never have to reload!

or any of these if they ever had been made-
1
2
3
4
5

Gene - I nailed it the other night - you are quite the ringer. You know more about my guns than I do . In fact, when I first posted this little puzzler it ran through my mind to preface it that anyone but Gene can take a crack at it

It will take me a bit to absorb the information you passed on in your above post. Some very provacative ideas and I will enjoy mulling them over. If I do win the powerball, you will be my choice to pick some vintage never built firearms to bring into production. In fact a double barrel Savage that would compete with the firepower of the Evans sounds almost irresistable. Particular if one side fired shotshells and the other rifle shells.

Back to my little puzzler, my logic was to choose the rifle that I could kill the most big game animals with. Pick a Savage and you have about a maximum of six deer. I don't have a first model Evans but if I did that would have been my choice as 34 deer would have been possible. My current Evans could account for 26 deer. One advantage is my Evans is chambered for the .44 Evans Long so certainly a better big game cartridge than the .44 Short. However, in that type scenario with limited cartridges, one would be firing only at close range where a kill shot was very likely. Here are some more pictures:

Steve; If you look real close at your Evans action as it closes and watch how it locks up and then look at a Browning designed Winchester 1887/1901 lever action shotgun you will realize that John Browning did get ideas from other designers, it would seem unlike to me that he would never have seen an Evans.

Gene

I do have a M1887 shotgun here and have owned several M1887 and M1901's in the past. It would have never occurred to me to compare the actions of those two firearms (to an Evans). I really wasn't joking when I said you knew my guns better than I do

I can see how if you have studied these designs as closely as you have, the originality and "genius" of some of these famous inventors starts to fade a bit.

A true genius will see the value of someone elses idea and use what is best for the application - someone who always has to be different does not always have the best idea. I learned a long time ago when doing factory work that some of the people that were not considered geniuses came up with the best and easiest ways to do things because they looked at the problem in a different and maybe much simpler way - whenever I saw a better idea I would use it and give full credit to the person no matter what I thought of them.

Well put Gene. Even though it is admirable, it doesn't seem that giving credit is a requisite aspect of "genuis."

15 pages, over 3000 views.

Is this the longest off topic, that went off topic and continues to go off topic thread that we have ever had? Been fun, learnt lots about guns I knew nothing about.

Johno

Im going to give ya a scenario that is so far off topic it has made me drink a nice glass of bourbon.

Imagine someone backed into your wifes car and their trailer hitch punctured her A/C condenser.

Imagine to save 700.00 you bought a used condenser, put it in and charged the A/C by yourself for 145.00 total and felt peaty good because it worked just like it should.

Imagine you took it for a test ride and as you backed out of the driveway you didnt see the bike you son left out.

Imagine you popped two tires running over the bike.

Saved enough doing the A/C to buy tires.

Rant over, carry on :)Gulp, Gulp



I am enjoying Steve and Gene's passion for collecting and knowledge of these rare firearms. Thanks Guys for sharing.

boltman
I can help with an early Evans rifle or a much lighter Evans carbine for your long trip.

Could this be inspiration for a T shirt?
You could have a pic on the front of the hitch going through the condenser. Then on the back the rear wheels going over the bike.

Sorry just could'nt leave that alone,somewhere in all that is a plus,i'm sure of it. I really am sure

Johno

Fug - the lighter carbine would be much appreciated. I'm not quite sure when my journey will start so best I get the Evans here sooner rather than later. I would enjoy the lighter weight for sure.

Gary - your story sure reminds me of another recent story posted here - Kenster and his $250 M99H recent purchase which resulted in a $5000 trip to the emergency room. And he didn't even fire it! I think Johno's idea for a T-shirt would work really well for that one too. Kenster did supply a nice picture.

Johno - it has been a long haul but the road still seems open ahead to me. I've got to do some digging here but I've got something in my files (somewhere - pre-computer) that I think I might even be able to stump Gene with. Maybe.

A recent comment made to me by Gene reminded me of how much I have wanted a Roper shotgun during my collecting career. This in turn reminded me of my long-term desire for a Blake rifle. If you can find a Blake rifle (with the original magazine) you really have something. Sadly, I have neither a Roper or a Blake to photograph

Steve , there is a shot of the Roper action here

scroll down

another here

and some nice ones of the whole gun

Very nice Gary. This shotgun is not only the first repeating shotgun, but the first shotgun with a screw-in choke (way before it became fashionable). So, who here has one?

No photos of the blake but this 1895 recreation magazine has a article on how it works with some good diagrams and also a ad for the rifle company. Kinda like a bolt action 99

google books article

blake at rockisland

Yes, the Blake does bear some resemblance to the Savage '99 - a bolt action version with a rotary style magazine, with the magazine of course being detachable. I like that it is an eight shot repeater . I have always found it a very interesting rifle. Occasionally I have seen one offered for sale - usually from a high dollar auction house. The last one that tempted me had quite a bit of finish but it was missing the magazine and that was a real deal-breaker for me. Thanks for the diagram and pictures Gary.

Are you looking for a Blake in .236, .300 or .400? - actually I had no idea what a Blake was until I did a search after your post..and found this; http://www.cabincreekcds.com/BlakeRifle1897.htm This info had me confused at first - the schematics shown are not of a Blake.

Gene

Gene - when it comes to Blake rifles, one shouldn't be too fussy. Of course, I want a .400, but mainly I want one with the detachable rotary magazine - preferably two of them . I think given the rotary magazine function of the Blake, it may be an off-topic rifle, but it sure is close. Be pretty neat if they had made it in .250-3000 but they were long gone before that cartridge came along. By the way, the schematics shown in your link are confusing as they show a tube-fed rifle. Maybe there were other versions of the Blake I was unaware of.

Gene - did you see this link from Gary:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GE...=onepage&q=Blake%20rifle&f=false

It shows the mechanism quite well. They state this is the first magazine of its type. One wonders if Arthur Savage handled a blake rifle at one time. I think Blakes came into production in 1892 - so right in the vicinity of the Savage .30/40 prototype I believe. And, curiously enough, in .30/40.

Yes; I saw Gary's link - and Gary, I always check your links out. The link I gave shows magazines other than the Blake and from what I could gather they are included in the CD as examples of what else was being used when Blake's design came out. I started looking for the patents for the Blake and from the date you gave me I am getting close.

While doing that I did find another interesting pump action rifle - it's a revolving pump action with electric firing and a tube magazine to feed the cylinder...wonder why these never became popular.....? electric firing pump action I believe Remington tried electric ignition a few years ago and I think it was still a flop.

Very nice Standard Arms. Mine isn't in quite as nice shape. Model M (pump only) in 30 Rem. One thing I've noticed is every one I've seen had extra nice wood in the but stock.
Doc

I saw a standard arms rifle the other day in the Ft .Nelson heritage museum in British Columbia, It was in a rack of really beat old rifles.I think an old trapper had it, or one of the guys building the Alcan highway. Don

Gene - that electrical pump rifle really blows my mind. I suppose on long hunts you'd have to bring several electrical battery packs. Probably each one the size of a large moose quarter. Not surprised it didn't catch on. It's hard to picture the need for it - it's not like slide actions required a lot of effort to pump.

Don - good to hear you are keeping your eyes open on the road. Was there enough of that Standard Arms remaining to tell if it had nice figure in the butt as Doc Foster mentions? Oh, and was it a pump or semi-auto? Doc - I too have typically seen nice figure in the buttstocks of most Standards I have seen. I assume that when they purchased wood, they only bought high figure wood?

Still waiting for someone to post pictures of their Blake rifle.

Steve, If you scroll up from the Blake article there is on on the new Savage rifle. I wonder if those two fellas knew each other.

Looking through the rest of the magazine, above the savage article are some photos of the displays at the sportsmans show.

Father down in the ads are ads for spencers and Blakes, What a time to be a gun crank out east.

Well I am done looking at patents again for a while - several years ago when I first started doing it I found it more interesting than any books I had, it's still is! I found some more real interesting ones - none by Blake though.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=a9p1AAAAEBAJ&dq=477666
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=dv91AAAAEBAJ&dq=481452
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=KhB2AAAAEBAJ&dq=483229


Steve, I also found a good one for your first 'project' buid from a patent - think you could handle a John Browning design to start??? Browning rifle design

Gene, those are great and all 1892. Given the fact that this forum exists I guess that you could say that A.W. won the rotary magazine contest. Can only Wonder if any of them gave him inspiration.

Gary - yes I agree that the existence of this forum is a great indicator of the design that prevailed and should be declared the winner

To add to the above, the 1899/99 is simultaneously a greater collector gun as well as a great hunter/shooter. I think of all the vintage rifles that are collected out there, Savage has the highest percentage of collectors that still shoot and hunt with them.

Not so off topic after all. I do find it interesting that your collecting took you into these early repeaters.

How has the internet changed collecting for you. Gene and Fug Id like to know how it has changed it for you guys too.

Before the internet did you just watch the auction houses or was there a good ole boys phone network you where hooked into?

Gary -
I still know some guys who are very darned connected and they don't turn on a computer. They mainly travel around the country to shows and this is still a pretty good way to see what's out there. I would love to do that. Be a great retirement. See the country, meet great people and see a lot of guns. As much as I use the computer/internet, I'd much rather see the guns in the flesh.

By the way, it is kind of funny how we came around full circle and back to Savage

I know this thread won't die, but getting back to the model 14, I guess they did make a carbine version.

Did not know that until today. Never saw one, never even heard of one until I came across this.

http://merzantique.com/photo.php?id=2252_0_2_59_M36

Randy

[/quote] Johno - I did get a chance to go over to gunsinternational.com and took a look at all the Remington 14's and 141's listed there. What they heck - do these sellers think they have Savages or what? I was surprised at how pricey most were. Puglisi's had a, "clean" one for around $2500, LeRoy Merz had some showing some wear for about $1700. There were lesser ones there as well but it sure looks like when a guy finds a decent one of these priced reasonable, he would be wise to pick it up. By the way, I was reminded how much I like the M14 carbine. They didn't make a carbine (that I can recall) in the M141. Also, I like the M14 and 1/2 carbine real well too, but I didn't see any examples listed. How often do run into any of these pumps down your way? [/quote]

Randy - I had mentioned my fondness for the Remington M14 Carbine several pages back. I had seen the one Merz had listed. It's a big price but you just don't see them very much anymore. I remember a time they would pop up every now and then, not any more. By the way, I'll bet everyone has learned something who has read this whole thread. There's been lots of stuff I sure didn't know. Everything from Remington M760's in .30 M1 Carbine and .22 Hornet, to all the patent stuff Gary and Gene posted

http://www.gunsamerica.com/94541827...-Modern/Other/Remington_Model_14_1_2.htm

Not a carbine but a reasonable Model 14 and 1/2. Another piece I would like to have is a M14 and 1/2 carbine. This GA ad mentions a thumbnail sliding piece on the bolt and he described it as a, "release." My understanding is that for those rifles fitted with a sliding piece on the bolt - it was the safety rather than a release. I have handled several (decades ago) but not owned one. They are rare, add value and are quite desirable among collectors. A Model 14 and 1/2 carbine with the bolt safety is a very desirable collector piece

Here is a Model 14 and 1/2 carbine. Typical internet auction - he mentions the rifle has been reblued but also states it is, "100% original."

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=183023929

I'll be darned - a saddle ring carbine in a M14 carbine. Probably can't letter the gun although I have minimal experience with lettering Remingtons. Going way back, I wrote Remington and they did provide me with some date of shipment information on a M08 in .35 (made in 1906), a M17 shotgun and a M721 in .300 H&H. Haven't messed with trying to letter anything Remington in more than 25 years.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=181223338

I'm still following fellas, don't have much to add. Just been a great ride.

Must due to run off topic again.

Going to start prepairing my vegetable garden for spring,this should now take us to TOMATOE STAKES

Johno

Oh no, tomato stake EG's I shouldn't be too critical as I have many of them here including two "salesman's sample" tomato stakes. So, Johno, glad to hear you are still following along. I don't suppose you run into many fellows hunting with Blake rifles down there?

Have to confess my ignorance mate, i'd never heard of the Blake until this thread. Its been educational.

Suns out bugger the garden,get the quad trailer finished and go and chase some fallow deer tomorrow. Now thats a plan

Johno

"The Rifle in America" by Sharpe has 6+ pages on the Blake and I found a date for the patent! ....only 4 patents on firearms granted that day so very easy search! The year was one I had looked through several years ago and I did not save many patents for bolt actions. That patent led to a couple others.
Blake rifle
patent for magazine
updated rifle

Johno:

How about a picture of a fallow with an HP?

Randy

Gene - very interesting. It sure does seem as I look at these spool magazine patents that we aren't all that far off-topic. One of the interesting parts is that they were essentially detachable magazines. This has a lot to do with the fact that often when you find these rifles they are missing the magazines. I am not aware of an after-market manufacturer

Randy

All my 99s are back in Australia, as soon as the property here is sold we will be moving back. Health ( mine ) and family problems back in the land of Oz. I have my rem 700 classic in 250 that I will be using.

Johno

Johno - I don't suppose there is anything down there that a .250 won't handle nicely