There always seems to be at least one, usually several current threads running where someone is asking about firearms related to elk hunting. They ask which caliber or bullet style is best or which gun they should buy for elk hunting. Or they are asking what's the effective range of caliber "X" or compare one bullet performance to that of another or one rifle to another.

Whenever I read such a post it occurs to me that "There goes someone who doesn't know much about elk hunting." They haven't enough hunting experience to realize that shooting and killing an elk is the easiest part of the whole process. The most difficult part of elk hunting is finding the elk and the second hardest part is getting them out after we kill one.

I would like to read more posts about how to sneek through the dark timber when you know they are in there somewhere but you don't know exactly where. Or maybe a post relating to what kind of results people have had using a cow elk call. Then Maybe a post regarding how to manage to be patient when you know that you are sitting in the right place and you know that sooner or later an elk will walk by if you just have the patience to sit there long enough. And then I would like to read a thread where the subject of hawling out an elk is discussed.

I guess maybe I need to start those posts.

KC

I could tell you about the times I snuck through the timber and it worked but it would be a lot easier to tell you when it didn't. Maybe that is why we don't talk about it much. When it works is when I don't do the wrong thing or am in the right place at the right time.

I will always remember twenty minutes in an Alder swamp after I saw an elk part about 25 yards away. I could smell him, I had seen part of a rack, I believe I could hear him breathe. I was sitting on a log watching an abandoned skid road half a mile above the travelled road. I had been there about an hour. I sat waiting for him to move for twenty or more minutes. Yes, I looked at my watch. My butt started to hurt and I shifted about six inches. He heard it, figured out where I was and slipped out. All I heard was a hoof, a rear I believe, touch a log as he slipped out.

I go back each season and think about the one's that outwaited me or when I got impatient or when I simply wasn't man enough to get to where I needed to be fast enough to kill him. And yes, sometimes when I didn't manage my rifle well or shot poorly.

Whoever said experience is something you get right after you need it knew about elk.

"I would like to read more posts about how to sneek through the dark timber when you know they are in there somewhere but you don't know exactly where"

"how in $%% do I find ELK, the areas huge and they seem to be very hard to find"

I POSTED SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR IN A REQUEST A YEAR OR SO BACK, THINKING IT WOULD HELP THE NEWER GUYS......I got very few replies or useful info in responce.....but Ill try to give some pointers or bits of info that might be useful

(1) get out your topo maps well before the season and try to find the least accessable areas, furthest from roads, and camp sites, that still have both water and expansive brush and timber

(2) realize that on opening day the areas near roads and camp sites (within a mile or so depending on the terrain features)will generally be long ago vacated by the ELK.

(3)look for lands/fences posted as PRIVATE PROPERTY that limit general access to areas, in many cases gates accross roads block vehical access, but a walk accrossed BLM or NATIONAL FOREST land will give access to seldom hunted areas.

(4) yes youll need to get a decent GPS to validate your true location and learn to read map boundries carefully and LOCAL COUNTY BOUNDRY MAPS giving detailed property borders, will help.

(5)learn to USE the movement of the majority of casual hunters movements within a mile or two of those roads and camp sites, to push the majority of the game and to concentrate the game in those areas.
HUNT FROM DAWN TILL DARK, STAY ALERT, YOUR CHANCES DECREASE DRAMATICALLY SITTING AROUND CAMP

(6)game will generally take the lesser steep slopes and stay near or into the edge of cover, game like hunters will generally avoid extremely steep areas UNLESS PUSHED,but they need both water and food plus cover, any area that does not have those is LESS likely to hold game.

(7)north and east facing slopes GENERALLY hold more food plants and cover and SOUTH AND WEST facing slopes less, you can normally see what moves on the OPPOSITE slope in a narrow canyon better than your own side,use that info!

(8) areas extensively covered with juniper, aspens and oak brush generally produce better results than larger conifers , open grass or sage once hunting starts to apply pressure on the ELK.

(9) a $20 bill slipped into several local ranchers hands in exchange for a brief few questions on the local herds is usually money well spent, ESPECIALLY if you can do it a week or so prior to the season

(10) talk to the local biologist several times well before the season opens

(11) GLASS from SHADED areas under trees limbs or without being high lighted on a ridge crest and wear dull grey/browns/greens or better yet camo in dull grey/browns/greens. watch the wind dirrection,mark your maps and ask the local game department for info.USE a wide brim hat, shading your face and eyes helps

(12) buy groceries/ supplies/gas locally and be friendly to the clerks, ask where the better areas are and WHAT AREAS ARE NOT WORTH HUNTING

(13)walking rail road right of ways can occasionally allow access to national forest or BLM areas beyond private land boundries


(14)learn the games anatomy and to shoot off hand out to at least 75-100 yards both fast and accurately enought to hit a 6" paper plate within a few seconds, game seldom stands around like those silly calender pictures taken in national parks, youll need to be effective at shooting slow walking targets at times with-in a few seconds, take advantage of ALL oppertunities instantly when they occure, they seldom last for more than seconds, this IS why heavier caliber ELK rifles have an advantage, (you can,t always get ideal shot angles on the vitals)Im not advocating texas heart shots but having the ability to place a shot near the last rear rib on the near side and rake thru to exit the far shoulder RELIEABLY a nice option the heavier calibers are better at.

(15) rim rock, steep river banks,narrow canyons,fire crew access roads, fences and rail road right of ways can influeance the way game routes its travels thru an area you can use that info,find the best locations where a rifleman can can control access thru an area, power line right of ways can be a great way to allow a rifleman to deny game crossing thru an area un-detected
(16)
hunting with a partner or partners and acting like a team where the movements of one member may push game too the others,and scouting by the others aids your chances is smart. if you place one member 3/4 way up a slope and one 1/4 of the way up your chance of spotting game movements for both increases

(17) don,t get to concerned with absolute accuracy, a guy that can shoot and hit a 4" plate consistantly at 100 yards in under 4 seconds will kill plenty of elk but a guy that can shoot 1/2" groups but takes a minute to get ready will have far fewer chances
(18) learn to use a cow elk call it will occasionally help you get in closer before the herd spooks, and allow you to cover for some noise made, Ive even had several ELK come on a run when I was just calling as I slowly still hunted thick aspens

(19) when you stop be in the shade and hopefully against a tree stump, behind a fallen tree or under conifer branches or near brush,sit & glass,don,t stand, your harder to detect that way.

(20) pay attention to whats going on well out on the edges of your visual range, use binoculars,you can cover far more ground with vision, carefully glassing, than walking thru it,Ive seen ELK stare out at us from timber from over 200 yards away,on more than one occasion as we slowly walked logging roads, don,t talk, the human voice carries hundreds of yards and spooks game, try to stay in the edges of brush, when moving, looking out,unscreened movement and standing in the open makes you very easy to spot/avoid/detect

Before I had ever killed an Elk, I blew what would have been my first chance. I was on one side of a small finger canyon and spotted three Elk working along the opposite ridge just below the skyline. I covered behind a tree waiting for a clear shot but decided I would have a better shot if I moved to a location behind another tree. I never saw those Elk again, but when I crossed to where they were I found that the tracks turned hard right just where they were when I moved.
One lesson learned.

Yep, yep, and yeppers.

But that's not really where these forums shine--besides, you kinda' gotta be there to learn much of what elk hunting is.

I'm far from always being right, but one can take a look at a small area, and it looks "elky". Food, cover, disturbance (or the absence thereof). Same thing with deer. The last few summers I've been taking my little boy out in northern Colorado checking out moose (he loves to "scout" for moose, and I'm starting to get a feel where to find moose at times....at least I think I am......


Casey

Ya' shoulda' plugged 'em with the 338-06 on the spot!


I wanna see your Cerra-cote that's on your rifles sometime--been thinking about doing some kind of coating on a couple of mine.



Casey

i hunted and killed elk in colorado in the early 70's, then the army moved me all over the world for the next 27 years. after i retired i returned to colorado but found very few elk where i used to hunt.

the following allowed me to kill an elk my first time in a new area (and almost every year till the present). i hunt with recurves or longbows in colorado, but have used a muzzle loader twice:

i first got the kill data for the state for the previous 3 years. i then selected an area i wanted to hunt.

i called the colorado dow and asked for the name and number of the biologist of the area i was interested in. some areas also have a manager (perhaps they all do, i don't know)

i bought usgs maps of the area

i called the biologist, said i was new to the area, and asked if he would help me find a location which would offer me an opportunity if i hunted hard. no atv area interested me. he mentioned several areas and said i could look him up when i came to co.

i arrived in the general area 3 days before season opening and called the biologist. i invited him and his wife (and entire family) out to dinner on me. he said he couldn't accept that but i could drop by his house and he would show me some places if i had maps.

at his home, he spent about an hour with me showing and telling me where he thought the elk were.

i asked him to prioritize the top 3 locations, which he did.

since he wouldn't accept a dinner out or an offer of some cash, i went into the closest town and bought him a very nice knife he could use.

i did some scouting of the area he said would be his first choice, and on opening day i killed a big cow. i have hunted that exact spot for the last 9 years, and have taken an elk in the first 3 days each year except 2.

moral of the story - ask for help from the people who know the area. be willing to work hard because elk are only where you find them. the more time you spend in a given area, the more familiar you become. knowledge of the elk in your chosen area and their travel patterns (both undisturbed and pushed) beats luck everytime imo. good luck.

Great post 340mag!

-jeff

I agree with everything 340 mag said except 14. A poorly placed shot/angle is just as bad with a bigger caliber/cartridge as a smaller one.I had the magnum craze years ago and found myself taking those less than optimum shots.

I might add that most guys move way to fast and cow call to often in the timber.

Many have too big a scope on thier rifle, power wise, to hunt effcetively in the heavy stuff

KC, the problem with "talking" about elk hunting is, like the old preacher said, "it's better felt than telt" and is better learned by doing than reading...

Still agree with you... can hardly stomach gun conversation anymore...

KC, I think a lot of hunters go through stages of learning. I remember years ago I really enjoyed reading about and fooling around with different guns and cartridges. After finding a satisfactory solution to the firearms question, I admit I'm a little bored by the subject.

I may have the gun thing figured out, but I haven't got the elk figured out! I've only hunted elk a dozen years now. I've still got a lot to learn!

I really appreciate the hunters that take time to share their experience....

KC - good call. I think there's a lot of guys who like to debate the intricacies of one rifle/cartridge/bullet/scope combo vs another. That really doesn't matter much. It's actually getting out in the field, and hunting. Doing it well, that matters. Shooting is important of course, but far to much is made of the specifics of each rifle/cartridge etc...

I'd like to see more input from skilled & successful hunters as well.

Good post. Thanks, Guy

My personal experince is that I might get one shot at an elk in the timber for every ten that I see and are legal. I might be able to cut that in half if I took more questionable shots.

After a person hears that familar thump ,thump, thump quite a few times of an elk trotting away in the timber without actually seeing it, they start to learn to slow down, watch the wind more. Then they start to hear hooves cracking branches or clicking on logs and they slow down more and watch the wind even more. Then after a few years, they start to see hair, eyes, ears and legs. Further effort and they start to see elk in thier beds.

When you get to that point, you know about 1/2 of what is required to be a succesful elk hunter in the timber, and you just keep learning after that. When you think you know everything there is about elk hunting, you are either too old to do it, or need to go back and relearn the things you forgot.

Also I think too many guys give up too fast and decide there are no elk around even though they know they are in good elk country . They may not be in that particular drainage or on that particaulr ridge, but you either go find where they are, or wait and they will eventually get pushed into the area from other hunters, if your hunt is long enough. I believe I have killed lot more elk on Tues., Wed, etc. or even the last day of the hunt rather than the 1st week end. This is why I dislike the 1st elk season in CO. 5 days is way too short if you need to go find the elk. Of course I always settle down and hunt better after a few days. Once you figure out the elk are not going to come easy, you start to figure out things a might more and work harder at it.

Some guys who go on guided hunts or hunt exclusively on private land where the elk are not pressured as much never get to the more advanced stages of elk hunting as thier elk come a lot easier.

Except for late hunts where the elk are herded up and working to get thier food, I have never seen or have benen able to shoot a bull in an open meadow like you see on those hunting shows Quite few guys won't hunt with me because they say I worked too hard at it.

Fun thread..
Many spend alot of time and money on 'shooting stuff' and neglect their hunt planning, physical condition, knowlege of elk-terrain-habits , use of edged tools etc..

IF you can shoot offhand( maybe with good sling or bipod) at hit a dinner plate at 250 yards with a .257, 264, .30 caliber or larger bullet, you won't have a problem killing a bull elk in most scenarios or states..:)

There have been quite a few posts on these forums over the years on all the REST of what it takes to find, hunt, butcher & pack elk..

The selection of rifle and cartridge and bullet and the marksmanship are the cake part of it..:)

The rest takes time, planning and hard work..:)
BUT it's all worth it in the end..:)Jim

Well said 340mag and hotsoup. When I'm hunting dark timber
I hunt very much the same way I was used to hunt Whitetails
in mesquite draws. I put the wind in my face and move very
slowly for about 10 to 15 feet then squat down and visually
try and break down the timber in front of me until I'm
convinced I'm alone then move up a few more feet, get a
slightly different angle and do it again. I've had some
sucess doing this but I've been busted more times than
I've taken an Elk. The only way I can hunt this way is I've
got to be sold on the area's potential. Normally when I'm
hunting this way it's because I've seen some Elk move into
the timber and it's usually shortly after daylight so
I'm set for most of the day. Later Baker

Dancing Bear,



Once I timed an elk for twenty-two minutes. It came down a trail and stopped no more than ten yards away. I don't think it know what I was. After the twenty-two minutes, it bent down and took a snipit of grass and looked back in my direction. It didn't even move an ear. Then it troted off.

I hear that. That's about how I hunt blacktails. You HAVE to know there's some animals around or it's impossible to sustain the concentration... not to mention you can waste a day crouching around in the woods without a critter within a half mile, something i've probably done more often than I'd like to know about! :-)

-jeff

After I had hunted elk for about twenty years and seen some success, I thought that I knew enough to write an article on how to hunt elk. Every year since then, I learn again that there's a lot that I don't know and the information in this article is only right some of the time. Just the same, there's still a lot of good info in the article so I'll repeat it.

I get an elk every year. Sometimes I get both a cow and a bull. My hunting buddies rarely get an elk and one guy asked me why. I replied that there are no secrets to hunting elk. You already know what you have to do to be successful. But most people won't or can't do what it takes to be successful.

You have to hunt throughout the entire year: studying, gear maintenance, shooting, scouting, etc.

You have to hunt every day of the entire season. You should arrive at camp no later than the day before opening day and don't leave until the day after the last day of the season. Don't hunt just on the weekends.

You have to hunt all day. The most productive times to hunt are just after dawn and just before sunset. So if you want to hunt during those times you have to do most of your hiking to and from the truck, in the dark. Stay in the field for the entire day.

You have to hunt the places that others won't or can't. Get away from the roads and hunt in the mean nasty hollows, where it's hard to get into and hard to get out of.

You have to learn to think like an elk. Pretend that you are an elk and you know that hunters are trying to kill you. Then go to the places and do the things that you need to do to avoid getting killed. That's how you find elk.

Once you've done all that, then you can employ these strategies.

Rule#1: Be safe with your rifle. Assume that any firearm is loaded unless the breech is open and you can see that it's empty. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction and never point your rifle at anything unless you intend to shoot it. Don't rely on the safety. Carry your rifle with the chamber empty and the safety on. Don't chamber a round until you spot a target. Never shoot at a target unless you are sure what it is, sure you can hit it and sure of what's behind it.

Rule #2: Be proficient with your rifle. Always make a clean, quick, humane kill. In order to do this you must be proficient with your rifle. No matter how good you have been in the past, you need to practice several times each summer to ensure that you are current. Don't just sight in your rifle. You must practice to ensure that your rhythm is smooth and habitual and you can hit what you aim at. Practice at 200 yards and 300 yards so that you can determine in the field, if you should take that shot. Also, get off the bench and practice in the prone position resting your rifle on a daypack and also in the sitting position. There never seems to be a bench rest in the field just where you want it.

Guideline #1: Be in good shape. Altitude sickness is a real concern in the mountains. You need to be in good cardio/vascular condition to deal with it. Also, everyone must do their share and you can't do that if you can't hike the hills, and haul out your share of the game, collect firewood, carry water, setup & break down camp, etc. If you are in bad physical condition, then you will be miserable and you will not enjoy the adventure. It's really endurance breathing that you need to develop before you arrive at high elevation. Bicycling, climbing stairs, swimming and high altitude hiking are excellent exercises for this purpose. Also drink lots of liquids in order to minimize the effects of dehydration and Acute Mountain Sickness. By the way, alcohol and caffeine are not good liquids to drinks because they are diuretics and you will end up even more dehydrated.

Guideline #2: Scout, Scout, Scout. You need to know your hunting area like your back yard. Take several camping/hiking trips and several backpack trips into your hunting area each summer. Know where their winter range is, where their summer range is and where the migration routes are that connect the two. Know where the game trails are concentrated crossing saddles on ridges, where the bedding areas are, where the water holes are, where the hideouts are. Take a couple of long hikes where you expect to find game, just before the season opens.

Buy US Forest Service maps, USGS maps, county maps and BLM maps of your area. These maps contain different information. Copy this information onto the USGS maps. You can only reasonably hunt the area on one USGS 7.5' map. But as luck would have it, the best hunting area is usually where several maps come together. Tape the maps together. Memorize your map. Update it with field data from your scouting trips. You now have a map containing information in a way that no one else has.

Guideline #3: Hunt where the elk are: Seventy-five percent (75%) of the elk live in twenty-five percent (25%) of the available habitat. You can waste a lot of time hunting unproductively in an area where there is always some thin sign but never enough sign to indicate the presence of a large herd. Sure there�s the off chance that by pure dumb luck you might encounter a lonesome elk and ever year someone gets lucky and fills their tag that way. But your best probability of success will be in the vicinity of the large herds. You scouting goal is to discover where that 25% hotbed is located. When you find that area it�s hard to miss. It will stink with elk musk and urine, there will be heavily used game trails in every direction, the grass will be cropped short, there will be lots fresh elk droppings and you can hear elk scurrying away just beyond in the trees.

Guideline #4: Hunt the right elevation for the migration: Elk accomplish an annual migration, spending the summer at higher elevation and spending the winter in some sheltered place, usually at lower elevation. In Colorado's 1st and 2nd rifle season, most elk will be found at higher elevations in mixed aspen/evergreen groves, with lots of grass and forbs for food. They can travel a long way for water. Look for them to start moving down their migration routes in the 3rd season.

Elk will wait as long as they can before being forced to migrate by bad weather. They will go back up if it warms. So if weather in the 3rd season is warm and dry, then look for them up high. Mule deer will migrate sooner and faster than elk. One day of really bad weather and deep snow, will result in lots of deer in the sage where the day before there wasn't an animal to be found. Deer usually stay down once they have migrated. In the late seasons elk can often be found in rancher�s pastures.

When the weather is warm, there will always be a few elk spread out throughout their entire range. So the population density (elk/square mile) is less dense and your chance of bumping into an elk is low. I hunt the 3rd rifle season and hope for heavy snow and bad weather to drive them out of the high country. They will concentrate in the foothills, at the bottom of the snow line. Since they are concentrated, the population density is higher and your chance of seeing an elk is improved.

Guideline #5: Use hunting pressure to your advantage. I hunt an area on opening morning where there is good vehicle access and lots of other hunters. I hunt in the places where I think the animals will run to avoid the opening day hunters. Most hunters will stay within a mile or so of a road. A few others will horse pack in five miles, usually more. So it's good to get back in 2 or 3 miles before the sun comes up and hunt the in-between areas.

Guideline #6: Hunt bedding areas at dawn. Elk like to bed down in isolated, gently sloping groves of mixed aspen/evergreens with lots of grass and forbs for food. They can travel a long way for water. Isolated means someplace where it�s difficult for people to access. Find several places like this when you go scouting. Hike in the dark to arrive at an overlook before the sun comes up and wait to see what comes out of the grove.

Guideline #7: Hunt the ridges at midday. Setup overlooking a saddle on a ridge where game trails are concentrated and wait to see what walks by. This takes lots of patience and works best if you have somebody stealth hunting through the dark timber to get the animals moving.

Guideline #8: Hunt the water holes in the afternoon. Find some isolated water source, maybe the highest place where a creek first starts coming out of the ground. Setup concealed from view, with a good field of fire 100 to 200 yards away, at least 3 hours before sunset, and wait to see what comes to drink. Wait until the very last shooting light is gone before going back to camp. I have field dressed a lot of animals in the dark using a flashlight.

Guideline #9: Hunt the hideouts late in the season. Elk know that someone is trying to kill them as soon as the first shot is fired. So they run and hide in the most inaccessible terrain around. Find some cozy little pocket surrounded by the meanest, nastiest country around; a place where it looks like there's no way that an elk could get in there; a place where you would hate to get an animal down because you would hate to have to haul him out. That's where the elk will be and that's where you should be (and where I will be) late in the season.

Guideline #10: Be persistent. You can't catch fish unless you have your bait in the water and you can't find an elk unless you are in the field looking for them. They're not going to walk up and surrender themselves to you. You have to find them. That's why they call it hunting and not killing. Many hunters give up after a couple of unsuccessful days and go home. Be prepared to stay the entire length of the season and to endure whatever fatigue and weather, you may encounter. Hunt an area for several days and if you don't find anything promising, then try a different strategy or different area, but don't give up.

Guideline #11: Be patient. Human beings are noisy, stinky creatures. Our dominant sense is our vision. The elk's best senses are their smell and hearing. Their vision is motion sensitive and they can't see colors. Many young hunters spend lots of time hiking and covering a lot of ground and wonder why they never see any animals. You should spend most of your time sitting quietly and watching. You should hike slowly and quietly and most of your hiking should be in the dark.

Nice, KC, and thank you!

-jeff

Great point. What rifle/load you're using don't mean doodly squat if you can't find the animals.

KC, I like the way you think........

I know of individuals who have purchased or traded their way into anywhere from 20 to 100 "elk rifles" over the last 30 + years. Most of these rifles end up getting experimented with at the range for a while, then traded off on something else. In other cases, those rifles get placed in the back of safe and they're forgotten about, while new "elk" or "all-around" rifles get added to the front row. Most of these rifles are seldom or never hunted with, and the way it works out, some of these guys have gone through 10 or more "elk" rifles for every bull they've actually put on the ground.

And I don't mean to sound too critical here, because in years gone by I've done the same sort of rifle recycling myself, waiting for the good ol' State of Confusion to generously throw me a bone and issue a resident elk tag via the drawing process.

I found that the best plan is to invest in one or two good and reliable rifles, stick with them, and spend the rest of your spare time working out, planning hunts, and hunting. If you can't draw a tag and hunt elk every year at home, put in for other states. Either way, the rifle preoccupation is an inane, resource-draining dead-end............

AD

Agreed, AD, and I've churned through too many rifles since 1999, no doubt.

HOWEVER, to me what settles it is when I get a "keeper". My .338 WIn Mag, in particular, is/was such a great rifle right out of the box that it makes a guy go hmmm... I can't find ANY reason to get rid of this one, or spend money dinking around with it, or whatever.

Problematic rifles are much easier to churn. What everyone needs is a couple of what Dober calls "honest" rifles, and when you get one, you need to hang onto that sucker!

-jeff

Hiya AD ...

Guilty as charged!!! Yep, you've described me perfectly. I've tried to get ahold of a couple rifles to do my hunting with but something always goes wrong with the plan, wind up with one that just won't shoot, got hunting season looming, and do some crazy trade that sets me back 5 years.

The current plan is a Seven XCR in 7mm-08 and a 700 XCR, probably in .375 but maybe a .338. I picked up the Seven last Friday, haven't shot it yet. The 700 is still down the road a ways.

We'll see if I can pull it off.

I can tell you that after 20+ years spastically trading equipment trying to get it right I'm burning out. I sure wish it'd all settle down. There are days I get so frustrated I'm ready to sell everything and buy a bow.

The closest to a solution I ever got was a few years back when I had a 7mm-08 in a stainles Seven ... shot good for 4 years, then I got stupid and fried the throat practicing offhand. About the same time I had a Ruger #1 in .375 ... supposed to do it all. 260 grain ballistic tips for elk, 220 grain hornady flat points loaded down to .38-55 speed for deer in the brush, cast bullets. I had it going pretty well then one shot I let the tip of the stock down too low and it crunched a tendon at the outer end of my collar bone. I was on my knees trying not to puke for a couple minutes. It hurt baaaaad. I took it to the gunstore and put it on consignment. Now I sure wish I'd waited about 3 weeks but man I was in a world of hurt. Since then none of my elk caliber rifles have shot well enough. Went through a couple Ruger 77 mk IIs in .338 that weren't quite minute of barn door accurate, a 700 LSS in .300 that wouldn't shoot, got a .338 RUM in the 700 XCR that I could not manage, it kept scoping me in the forehead ... hard. So ... that's how my quest goes.

You got the right idea, it just seems easier said than done ... or else I'm unlucky.

Tom

I wholeheartedly agree with your post KC. I like to shoot, but love to hunt. Don't get me wrong, I've a ton of respect for those of you with a wealth of ballistics and rifle performance experience and knowledge. But I see many folks who start from relative scratch getting way, way too wrapped up in the pro's and con's of various calibers and cartridges that, truth be told, would all be just dandy for elk. I've seen guys hunt with .25-06 on up and all do well. Half my big game battery is a .300 Ultra, the other half is a .270 Win. Most all the guys I know and hunt with use one rifle.

I know this is a family site, but I like the crude analogy of worrying about your elk rifle is like worrying about what condoms to throw in your pocket before going out tomcatting. (My experience is quite dated in this regard, but stay with me, it's a good analogy.) Yes, a little bit of thought goes into the choice. But there are way more things to worry about and challenges to overcome before you get to the point of using that item. And...the followup could range from easy to a whole lot of work.

I think time spent scouting is very well spent. I always tell people that I hunt all year, I just shoot the animals during their respective season. I think the very best thing a novice elk hunter can do is to find someone to take them with. I found that I needed to flounder around a couple years before the guys I knew would take me along. I know that's not possible for everyone, I'm just relaying my experiences. I think they just wanted to know I was serious.

I'd say select an area and get to know it well. Don't be shy about stopping and BS-ing with the other hunters you meet. Some cough up good information, some lie like a rug. You can usually pick out the good information from the bad.

SD

There are condoms called "magnums".

Uh... which caliber equals what condom?

Joke... just runnin' with superdave's (excellent) analogy a little.

-jeff

In a condom, I need a magnum. in a rifle, not that important. Have plenty that will work.

Or like last year I called in 3 bulls all of them to within 25 yards never saw a head but tips of horns parts of legs, if you can tell me how to hunt reprod where the only light is the sky I am open for those pointers because it doesn't matter what caliber or how fast your bow is you can't shoot what you can't see. Grin!!

ehunter, that's where you need that big magnum! Just aim where you think their body is, and shoot 'em right through the reprod.

If the thunder don't get 'em, then the lightning will!

:-)

-jeff

Or at least you could blast a big enough path to see what I missed You know shooting lanes...

That's how I hunt grouse. First barrel clears the brush. Second barrel misses the grouse. :-)

-jeff

_____________________________________
ehunter...
Hunting elk in the dense reprod timber sucks..and is by and large, a worthless endeavor.

You have to ambush them going in or coming out..or send your beaters in to flush them out..:).... otherwise, you'll only smell them, hear them and see parts but no decent shots..Also damned dangerous IF there are any other hunters in that stuff with ya..Jim

Jim, I have shot an elk almost every year in that stuff.Last year it was at 5 yds about. Not many hunters where I go though.I like it because it is exciting, one on one with the elk. In long range hunting like some guys do, it is all about being skilled at shoooting. In the nasty stuff it is not so much marksmanship/shooting skills as it is you stalking skills

Saddlesore, ALOT dpends on what sort of age the reprod has on it..whether I will get in there and hunt elk..:)

15-20 year old reprod has some visibility down low as the lower branches die...
Some of the newer reprod 'tree farms' are so thick that elk hunting could be done with a 12 gauge, moccasins and 0000 buckshot..:)

I've hunted and tracked thru that latter stuff..but usually so dense including the ground cover that hunting cannot be done easily..
I've killed some nice elk as they came out of the denser stuff we have here in western Oregon..Usually know their travelways and before you ever see them, you hear this rushing sound like waves breaking on the beach as they plow out of the stuff..Jim

What seems to have killed the area I hunted my first 4 seasons for elk, Tower Mountain in the NF John Day Wilderness area, is a combo of naturally reseeded tamarack reprod (it burned) combined with all the blowdown from the trees that died in the fire... you want to talk impenetrable! The elk will bed in the edges of it but that's about it.

It was very huntable as 2-4 foot high reprod, and before all the dead stuff fell down, but as 6-8 foot reprod, ferget it. Maybe when it gets to be 20 feet high and some lower brances die off, as Jim says, it'll hunt again...

One cool thing when the trees were more like 3 or 4 feet high was that when it snowed they'd get all white. Then when an elk would move through them, they'd knock it off, leaving green, and leaving a trail I bet you could see from orbit! That was nice.

I miss that area a BUNCH. My group has a lot of intel on that area so to speak, a lot of years hunting there. We've been flailing a bit the last couple years trying to find a new spot.

-jeff

Jeff, I think we've talked a bit about hunting traveling in & thru some of the denser stuff..

Nothing like a bit of pre season work with good hand held pruning shears to do two things:

Give us a way thru quietly( and almost dry) and ALSO give the blacktail and elk little corridors they also will gravitate to and use also..

It's all fun..but I have not found the Roosevelt elk spending much time in the reprod other than cover and a bit of rest when pressures are high during the rifle season..

The older reprod, with all the dead branches and thick layer of needles on the ground , will stay pretty dry even in really wet weather and even in windy weather, the elk like those areas as the reprod doesn't creak & groan like the older growth and they have some cover..
When they lay down , visibilty is pretty good..often over 60 yards and so they feel safe there..Jim

Agreed and I'm excited to see your area with you sometime, Jim! You heading over there this spring?

However, that said, I didn't communicate the scope of the "problem" at Tower Mountain. The reprod/blowdown is in sizes measured in the square miles... many square miles.

It pretty much shut the elk down (I think) there. Once it grew up/blew down past a certain point, they couldn't move through it any more. Not with any speed. They go into it to feed in the spring or summer (based on old sign) but don't seem to want to use it when they are under any pressure. Put it this way, there are saddles that old guys had made a career out of hunting, crossing points and so on... last time I was there I talked at lenght with one such gentleman I met watching a saddle he'd watched for over 30 years and pulled a bunch of elk out of. His words might have been the tipping point for me, at least, as far as deciding to hunt somewhere else.

I LIKE hunting the dense stuff for blacktail. it'd be fun to learn to hunt elk that way.

-jeff

Guys over here the big bulls don't leave the reprod till dark they just follow the herds and the young bulls in the clearcut until a cow comes into heat. You don't find the big bulls in hanging in the clear cuts very long. I am bowhunting and really when you get into some of those jungles they have open areas and water they can live in there all year. Plus you never see another hunter in there with you and well you can't even see your hands or or partner for that matter. It makes for close encounters as saddlesore said it can get exciting I might add there is more reprod than big timber.

I just about crap my pants when calling in a turkey... can't imagine calling in an ELK!!

-jeff

The elk over here alot of the times will show up quitely they will some times bugle as well but alot of times we will softly call and rake trees some times you hear a stick break or horn hitting a branch. We have had some come in blowing snot but they are lot more careful these days. Yes we have had some steaming moments when they get close but that is what makes it fun. We have found after bumping elk leaving we need to give them about 45 mins some times they will come in to see whos there but won't make a sound. The decoy helps us as well. We try to set it up so that is not completely visible.

My partner almost got stepped on by a bull making a bee line to a decoy a couple of years ago after calling we gave up and went to take a nap, in the middle of a hot afternoon the bull heard the calling and saw the decoy. My partner was laying down next to a brush pile and herd a thud as the bull stumbled or some thing he looked up and saw legs, the bull looked at him and ran around a bush pile and so my partner went the other way and missed him at 30 yards partly because he had his boots off and was standing on some black barries partly because he was in shock and still half a asleep. In the mean while 25 yards away I was snoozing and dreaming of elk go figure I never heard the bull take off or the shot. I honestly did not believe him until I saw the tracks and I could tell from his face he had a close encounter. From where he first saw him from his tracks to my partners boots was one stride. He was a big 5x6 bull we saw him again a couple of days later with some cows.

We will be going in to trim some trails this spring so that we can get around in the reprod. We have one area that looks like a cattle stall where the bulls hang out and catch the thermals and it is a reprod patch that is surrounded by cuts. Most people just hunt the open clearcuts and after day one or 2 the bulls are not there not will they answer a call except to say they are leaving.

KC: Doesn't deal with elk, but I remember this from a very old Readers Digest. "I can sit absolutlely motionless and silent beneath a hickory tree for 20 minutes. A gray squirrel can do the same for 21 minutes."

One reason you read so many threads on the subject is that there are so many people who don�t have the answer. No shame in that, as we all started at Ground Zero in our learning processes.

When I moved from the Midwest to Colorado I had never hunted deer, let alone elk. The Internet wasn�t as popular back then and certainly wasn�t as accessible as it is now. Instead of going online I did a lot of reading, compared a lot of ballistic tables and then asked my elk hunting mentor who also happened to be my State Farm agent and worked in the same building I did. He recommended a 7mm Rem Mag and that is what I went with for my first centerfire.

Sometimes the hardest part is finding them, sometimes the hardest part is getting them out � I�ve seen it both ways but I�ve never seen it where the choice of cartridge made any difference for me or my hunting partners. A .308 would have taken every animal I�ve ever shot.

That said, consider me one of those people that are preoccupied with firearms. I enjoy them for their own sake. Shooting them and developing hunting and target loads for them provides year-around pleasure. By contrast, hunting is an activity that is limited to a few days a year.

I think your right and its the off season so the rifle is the question at the moment. grin!

I think you guys in the NW have a completely different kind of thick growth. Where I hunt it has very seldom been logged. Most is al old growth original timber in Wilderness areas, or may have been timbered 100 years ago. Here the problem is blow downs . You can walk a 100 yds or more at times without ever touching the ground, but the elk can move through it like ghosts without making asound. Getting a shot is indeed difficult, but carrying elk quarters out a few hundred yards, 3-5 ft above the gound to where we can get the mules to is really tough. Sounds like the NW elk hunting is alot harder thanwhat w ehave here

NO I don't think its any harder it is different I have never hunted in Colorado but we have some blow downs in Eastern Oregon that get pretty thick and like you say it is a small step at a time and slow hunting.

The elk here will hang in the 5-12 feet reprod that is still open enough to allow food to grow but as it gets more mature it kills every thing out on the ground level. Then like Jim said they will move though it but not live in it. The elk use the reprod as a refuge in the 5-12 foot stuff. Once you get into it there are openings and old trails and skid roads. Alot of food along the creeks and in little meadows.

The problem is most of the area I hunt is private timber companies and they harvest the trees so there is very little old growth and the elk use the reprod like corn in the midwest. The older bulls can stay up wind of a clear cut and smell every thing going on in the cuts if the cows move they can just follow them on the edges. The bulls will feed in the cuts at night. We kept seeing these small rag horn bulls but never found any big bulls until we started hunting in the reprod more and then it hit us these bulls didn't mind the little bulls running with the cows until they went into heat and then they would run off the little guys. The majority of the breeding happens at night over here. Occasionaly you will see a big bull in herd but in our area there is a lot of bowhunters and we think they are just hiding out and following the cows.

We also don't have to deal with the elvation you guys are hunting in.

These older mature rosies have figured out the hide and not being so vocal technique pretty well. Big blacktails will also live in these reprods I think of them like huge cornfields in the midwest.

That is pretty interesting Ehunter.Public land bulls are pretty quiet around here too. I suspect it is from every one pretending to be a champion elk bugler and then going out and sounding like the biggest baddest bull in the woods. Guys run around and bugle like crazy with the idea they are scounting and locating the bulls. They even drive up and down the roads buglin. Some even use tape cassetes in thier trucks or on atv's. These bulls learn in one time when they come into a call,and then smell human to not do it again.They know the sound of every bull in the area and can tell when it is a fake bugle. Cows are starting to be leery also, and most bulls will leave the country with even a cow call.

Elk are also going nocturnal in feeding and breeding. It isn't until it is very cold with a good bit of snow that you start to see them more and more in the daylight.

Two things that drive the elk into the thick timber and hidey holes are that guys go into the timber only a few days before season, again thinking they are scouting. Heck,any elk in there leave for the next drainage. Or they set thier camp up in prime elk habitat start fires, clang on pots and pans, sight in thier rifles,run chain sawa,drive in tent stakes,etc. then wonder why they see elk sign a day or two old but no elk.

Another thing I see is elk hnaging out in lodge pole pine groves during the day. These trees are maybe 60 ft tall, maybe 8 inches in diameter, no lower limbs. There is no food except for maybe a few mushrooms( which elk love), very little water,mostly pine needle ground cover, very little cover, and you can see maybe a 100 yds, which means elk can see you too. It does not look like elk habitat and a lot of guys just blow though it, pushing the elk out the other end. I killed a little bull two years ago with a 44 mag carbine as a small herd were just walking through the lodge pole

One of the gun and hunting writers of yesteryear (I think it was Jack O'Connor, but I'm not certain) was asked by a reader who wrote in: "What is the best elk rifle for my part of the country?" To which the reply was: "Whatever rifle is in the hands of the best elk hunter in your part of the country."

I suspect many readers went scouting to find out what kind of rifle the person they perceived as "the best elk hunter" was carrying, but that was hardly the writer's point.

John Plute used a .30-40 Krag on the bull that was #1 for a century or so...but he kinda knew how to hunt elk.

FWIW...

DN

Boy you hit it on the head Saddlesore the elk unless your on a private ranch and or in the wilderness have heard it all. Here we hunt behind gates you either walk, bike, ride or horse in. So the majority of the guys walk the roads and call I swear the elk can tell when on your road now. Don't get me wrong there are a few elk killed every year that way but the bigger bulls are not giving up that easy. We have had the best luck although we have gone elk less for the last 2 years in a row a new record for us, not even calling until we get into the crap and then softly calling not the full out CD sounding tape, really elk calling is not about sounding pretty its about knowing what to say and when to shut up.

We found a new area last year by accident. Normally we would walk the 3 or 4 miles up the hills to hunt elk with the theory to get away from the people. Well as bikes get more popular it is getting harder to 1 beat people in 2 to get away from them. So the last 2 weekends we called in 2 bulls I think it was the same bull twice but within a quarter of mile of the gate I think all the pressure up on the ridges had moved the bulls down closer to the bottoms and the majority of the people were walking by them we found a good sized heard by hearing them walking cross a creek. We were hunting from a 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile from the gate. We started poking around and we found a ton of fresh elk sign and all the rubs we couldn't find on top were down on the lower ridges so that is why we were not finding those bulls on top.I think those bulls were hiding out in the bottom to lower quarter of the ridge and walking up to feed with the girls at night. We would get you see you later calls early in the morning at first light but no real response and we would see a lot of cows with a few small bulls that had no interest in talking other than to occasionally bugle to see if they could. Those bulls were hanging out down lower the light bulb finally went on. We thought we were getting old and lazy but maybe we are getting lazy and smarter grin!! Occasionaly us old dogs can learn new tricks

My own Roosevelt elk area 30 miloes east of the pacific ocean, which I have hunted successfully for bulls for 16 years, is walk in only..No gates..They are not needed as I couldn't ride a good saddle mule into the area...let alone a bicycle, quad, motorcycle or 4x4 veh.:)

It's that steep, broken and thick.There is some old growth, down timber, old burns, older and newer reprod, and down toward the creeksheds from the 2000' elevated hills and ridges, ALOT of brambles, devils claw, salal,ferns, banana slugs..:)
All of it is travel hunt up from the Forest roads and pack down if you kill an elk.

The Roosevelts in there don't bugle much at all...And IF they do, the denseness and wetness absorbs their calls so what might sound like a bull 1/4 mile away is in reality..less than 200 feet away..
The elk ALL know each other's voices..as they live and die in herds which on the topside might be 60 animals, but usually less than 20.
Listening helps, but calling never has worked effectively for me with the Roosevelt bulls in that country.
More like hunting blacktail deer..they go from bed to breakfast and calving grounds and water in less than 1000 acres unless extremely pressured..Jim

NOTE: And they NEVER need to migrate even for the worst weather..they live in that country 365 days a year for their whole lives..FULL time residents, little or no pressure..all the things they need right at hand..
For part time hunters in that country, we are always playing 'catch up'..they know the country and every inhabitant from rodent to birds so much better than we can ever know it..Jim

Jim.WOW 2000ft elevation. I would have to dig a hole 6000 ft deep to do that . I bet even my old crapped up lungs would work at that elevation.

That sounds as bad as my old whiteatil hunting days growing up in PA. Hunting in laurel thickets

Jim I agree the elk are not as vocal you need to be close in and call softly. One of the bulls I called in from a 1/4 of mile last year he was plain hot the best kind we could him coming thought he crap all the way and he was on a bee line he winded me at under 20 yards and I could not see enough of him to get a shot.

The biggest bull I called in last year was a nice 6x6 and we called in to about 40 yards of my partner by cow calling we could see him all the way in he came along a old skid road he was about 125 yards out and kind of trailing along some cows that went into the reprod, but he was in no hurry and he could not see the cow so he was very weary. We did not get a shot as he got to the 40 yard mark and turned and left?

Another time I was calling into some over grown brush reprod draws just cow calling softly he grunted and started up the hill he had a couple of cows were talking like crazy so I tried to sound like a calf and give the excited calls the cows I think pulled him up but it was thick and I all could see and hear was the cows talking and I could hear them walking. Well they get up to a old landing all I could see was one cow at about 30 yards I could see her head and the tip of the bulls horns and part of his butt at under 25 yards he grunted a few times and we were all on hold they could not see a elk he was not rut committed and he was not leaving those cows unless I looked pretty good to him. I dropped down a few yards but coming down on elk and crashing though is not good they eventually dropped back down and he gave a come on over here girl bugle and they then moved back down we did try to follow but the wind busted us and that was that.

These bulls are getting very weary and they are looking for elk before they commit we did call in 3 spikes in the 3 point area only area go figure. One of the spikes came in to us at less than 7 yards he was young but it was cool. He was very lonely

What simply amazes me and I am not sure how many people know it but these elk remember elk calls if you bust them and want to call them the next time you had better use a different call and they have you pin pointed to exactly where are standing from a long ways away.

Ive consistantly seen guys make the mistake of camping in a convienient camp site and hunting on foot in the immediate area of camp for the season durration, not useing glassing to cover the areas,not calling or bothering to scout thru the area. at the minimum you need to check carefully each canyon or series of canyons in each drainage ,only long enought to find the herds or be reasonably sure they are not currently there, then if you don,t find them, move to the next drainage, and repeat the process, again several times untill you locate the current eLK herd location, remember theres usually a couple herds and all of them can easily cover miles every day, calls can be helpful but they are not 100% effective and swapping canyons for days at a time is NORMAL..FOR BOTH EFFICIENT HUNTERS AND THE ELK,...... UNLESS your familiar with the area and the ELKs escape routes under pressure, and where you can reasonably expect to place yourself at those locations,. letting the other guys do the leg work to push them past you, but that usually takes many years of familiarity with that one area and scouting many dozens of sq miles , and even that won,t prove 100% a sure deal, a single bunch of ELK can easily swap between a dozen drainages over a few weeks

ehunter...
I have posted this observation / analogy before concerning humans attempting to call in Roosevelt elk in their own close cover country:..:)

IMAGINE...

You and the wife and all your kids and relatives-friends are sitting at the dinner table....and you hear what sounds like 'one of your kids or your wife's voice calling ' you to come and see, help etc from downstairs..

Your first response may be to get up fast and go downstairs..but then you see them all sitting near you at the table..
( that's assuming the caller can speak 'elk' very well at all)

IF you DO go downstairs...wouldn't you be wary( and as a human( armed..:)??

The Roosevelt elk all know each other well..and except for a few satelite bulls or broken up herds, they pretty much know where each other are also..
I don't call much at all these past 15 years..I listen, move, work to intercept them...and kill them tho..:) Jim

________________________________________________________________
Saddlesore..:)

Now don't be laughing & poking' fun at us relative 'flat landers' who kill elk in western Oregon & Washington..:)

I did 20 some years hunting RM elk from 6K-11K elevations in central AZ & NM years ago..

I lived there and worked there tho so didn't think much about it at the time..:)

Did notice that when hunting javelina down nearer to sea level, I'd have no problem running after them and finding them..

Same with the Roosevelt elk up here..We've run around them and after them a few times until they were stopping to look back and wondering:

( like Butch & Sundance when the Pinkertons were chasing them)

'WHO ARE THESE GUYS'???...:)

Killed several nice branch bulls who were just too tired to go much farther and stopped to look back..:)Jim

340 what you say is true you need to spend your time hunting where the elk are not where you have seen them I agree. Not sure where you hunting at in our area the elk feed in a loop and
will usally cycle back though if not too interupted in a few days. Rosies don't run out of the country like rockies one of our tatics we used to do was try to scare them out of a cut on purpose and follow them into the timber they might run a hundreds yards and settle down and then by cow calling like a lost calf you can get alot of elk to come to help you. Rockies will and can run for miles if spooked don't ask how I know that Also most of the feed for the areas we hunt are in the clear cuts and they will move in and out last year we would see the same herd about every 4th day in this one cut not sure where they were at on the other days.

Jim calling still works it is not like it was years ago these elk are very weary like you say. Alot of elk will drop in when you calling not making any sound at all just to see who dropped into their area. That is one reason raking early in the season is so good they Young bulls that we call rovers will sneak into see what bull it is before they make sound especially if they have been called in before or just got their lunch handed to them by another bull. I watched a rag horn 3 point one time run out a 5 point much bigger bull I think just because the kid had no fear and acted like he was the stud of the mountain. Some satalite bulls are on the move all the time once the rut starts and a cow call when bring them, lickety split same as a spike that has been run out by a heard bull they like company and spikes are down right lonely unless they have some other junior bulls hanging out with them or if a young bull is with some cows he will move off asap if you bugle to him he wants no part of another bull. He may not even know what he is doing yet but he has big plans. Like you say it is all about how and when and what to say to them...

One thing we do differently is we use the sound of a bugle to help locate (not to call them in) where you have already located them maybe your area is more isolated were we hunt the herds get bumped quite a bit. We can glass a lot of country and see elk but getting a mile to them with the wind right is a challenge a elk can walk up down a canyon in 5 mins where it might take us a hour to get there. Therefore if we can locate them in the dark it gives us a head start don't get me wrong we don't try to get into a bugling contest a single bugle is all you need. Man we can talk hours about theories and ideas and experiences

I like your therory about the dinner table we agree we just never put into those terms. Bottom line it is easier to get them to come up vs getting them to come down I agree.

ehunter, Some of how well calf, cow or bull calling works is the time of year..the season( archery or rifle) and how close the elk are to breeding season.

I've had better luck hucking bulls or pouring half a canteen of water out on a flat rock with a few cow call mews than calling Roosevelt bulls in close with a bugle, squeal or grunts....:)

BTW, hucking elk involves chucking hand sized rocks so they mimic a bulls footfalls or tossing and breaking branches and ferns when you want that darned branch bull to come in the last 30 yards for a good archery shot in close cover....:)
The cow mewing and water on the flat rock should be self explanatory..:)Jim

Nope that is another tip to try I have heard about the water. See its the little things that will help to make a difference.

I know a guy once who would call and tie a rope to a reprod tree and jerk on it to get the bull to go to that tree to give him a broad side shot he claims to have killed 2 elk doing that and it makes sense.

I agree with you walking around in the woods blowing a call is not going to work. All your doing is educating the elk pretty dam quick and they have been getting schooled for a long time now. I will continue to carry my calls and maybe this year I will get a clear lane to shoot in? Or that big old dude will take a step or too closer. We have killed plenty of elk but we learn something new every day. I will also try to sneak in when ever possible quitely what ever will work every elk is a individual and they all react diffently. We as hunters have to be aware of that and act accordling that is what makes it so much fun about the time you think I know what to do they do some thing different.

ehunter..
Hunting with a good partner..close together ...when you know how each thinks and have some good hand signals and plans... works really good for elk and deer in close cover..or bears, lion..or men for that matter.:)

Such a close friend and partner for the hunting isn't easy to find or develop these days tho.

Over the years, we've tricked and sidetracked and distracted many a nice mulie, blacktail buck or bull elk by teaming up on them intelligently..
One watches..one kills and stalks..OR one walks and the other watches and waits..OR one calls and shakes the brush, rattles or scrapes or calls..and the other waits for the killing shot..
Variations on the above are almost endless..

When all is said and done, no matter what firearm or weapon we may carry..the only hope we have is to out-think the native critters...outmaneuver them..anticipate what will fire them up and how they will move and BE THERE..

Think about that..and IF you don't have one yet..find or develop-train a good partner for the close cover hunting and killing..

TWO can butcher and pack out easier than one also..:) Jim

Yep I am fortunate enough to have had the same hunting partner for 30 years we went to college together. He is the better shooter so we try to set him up and I do the calling. It has worked well for the last 30 years we think alike We did not get a elk the last 2 years because we have been shooting only bulls but after last year we are rethinking our needs like having a freezer full of meat instead of just deer.

ehunter...Not sure what part of Oregon you fellows hunt...but sounds like you have a good 'team'..:)
IF the unit you want to hunt is a bull only unit...then you better find the bulls and bear down on the hunting IF you want to put elk liver and backstraps in the skillet and meat in the freezer..:)

Good luck..and good planning and execution for your hunting this year, Jim
PS:
I'll kill a nice fat bull this year..like I do every year..just trying to figger out how to make the pack out easier..:(

This year if it has hair we drop the first legal animal then we hunt for the grand daddy we hope. Jim there is no easy pack any more only the smile after the last load is in the truck

Nope we have fun we figure if we don't have a elk tag on some meat at the end of the season it is not because we did not try and we sure as heck better have sore ribs from laughing at each other or with each other. Between the two of us normaly we get at least one elk and then the guy who shot becomes the guide and acknowedged ledgend and expert guide and the caller and the other guy is the poor mistfit hunter who has to put up with the expert and ledgend..

ehunter..
Even when I was younger and stronger and dumber, your words ring true on this concerning downed elk:
______________________


"there is no easy pack any more only the smile after the last load is in the truck "..
_____________________________________

I'd settle for a skillet eating and jerk making after the butchering and work on a few of mine..the truck was aways off..:)

Hope you have more than elk hair to pack this year..I will for sure..:) Jim

This is sure interesting. All the differnt types of elk hunting terrain, cover. We haven' heard from the guys who hunt the sage brush flats as yet. That has got to be differnt. A few years ago I returned to NM to hunt elk. A lot of that country is pretty much like CO,but I hunted the north end of the Gila and it was all big mature ponderosa pines which was all fairly open under them. I just sat around and had elk walk by to shoot one

______________________________
Saddlesore, I've killed some nice bulls off a molly mule in
coutry like you describe when hunting up near Eagar Az years back..

The mule was broke to the rifle and a good saddle mule and the butchering and pack out was done pretty easily..comparitively..:Jim

Saddlesore what is hunting like in your area is it spot and stalk in the thick stuff? Do you have open parks? If you do I imgine that there are hunters around every opening? You guys are hunting in the back country?

What a wonderful thread. If this was a real campfire I'd be tossing on logs... and bringing you guys coffee/beer/whisky/ibuprofen or WHATEVER it took to help keep the conversation going!

Very cool.

-jeff

Twin hookers would be a good start.

Ehunter. There are a lot of open parks for sure ,and they are usually ringed with orange. The closer access,the more orange.
Lately I camp lower, and ride in every morning 5-6 miles and then hunt. However,I won't hunt outside Wildernes Areas. ATV abuse is so prevalent that I end up so mad and frustrated after the hunt that I don't enjoy any of it.

We might sit close to the mules an hour or so,to shoot some deer, but usually I get back into the timber a few hundred yards and just poke around some as I can't get too far away.

This past year I shot fat cow about 200yds from the mules and two years before that I shot a small bull in the lodge pole pines about 400 yds from the mules,but I was able to go around them and ride up to him. In 2006 I din't shoot an elk,I was hanging a tent up to dry after the 1st season, fell and broke tow ribs. I had to scrub my meat hunt the 3rd seaosn. After that I decided I would not do any more pack in hunts

I have hunted the country for many years and although I might get in an area I haven't been in I can usualy tell if it holds elk. More often than not, I have shot elk within a quarter of a mile of where I have shot elk previoulsy.

In the picture attached, I shot 7 bulls in 7 years straight, out of the bowl shown, several years back when I was younger.

Wow very cool photo I will try to get some photo's this weekend so you can see the type of area we are hunting. I hear you about the atv use it is a huge concern for us as well. Most of the coast area where we hunt is Private Timber land and for the most part they open it up for hunting via walkin during archery and then drive in during rifle season. I was talking to one of the managers of some private timber land last year they will not even allow atv use on the roads any more in thier area's because of the damage done to the new replanting that has been destroyed. So now they are having patrols in those area's that is how bad it is has gotten. Nothing like starting your hike at 2:30 in the morning getting up on top of the ridges and have some idiot come crusing by you waving. The good thing about the patrol guys is if you get a elk down they will often haul it out for you.


Lets talk worst packouts

The worst pack we had was a bull my partner shot at noon on a Sunday. We had been working this bull for a couple of hours but he was not coming in when the cows went into the timber we followed them. The clear cut was wide open and the elk were unaproachable it looked like a moon scape. Well in the timber the bull came in to us on a dead run. B shot that bull and we watched him run off and die it was 75 degrees at noon and we had to get that elk ASAP it was over 80 in the afternoon. We were 5 miles in and almost all of it up hill goin in. We got most of it out that evening and went back in the morning before first light and got the rest of the elk. It was a 10 mile round trip from the truck. We were pretty tuckered and I wish we could have had some mules on that day. I was pretty sore and stove up. The only time in my life I was hoping to see a atv We each made 3 trips over the day and 1/2 to get that elk out. I boned it out and bagged it on the spot but we still had to clean the meat of some fly eggs. Now we are older and smarter and try not to get our selfes in so much trouble now.

this looks far more like where I hunt 90% of the time, (canyon country like this, or similar but smaller side canyons)

heres an photo of a small bit OF DEEP CREEK

340 that looks like the snake country a little bit in Oregon. Its definatly rugged more than some of our coast range.

Saddlesore and 340 Mag are definitely hunting RM classic elk country..:)

The Roosevelt elk country I hunt up around Mt Hebo in the coastal range looks more like this snapshot..:)

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1180905621045263374GefOEK

Alder, cedars, vine maple, salal,devils claw, blackberry,doug fir, big leaf maples..and more thick than open except for newer cuts and older burns..Jim

That looks familiar!

's why I worry about things, perhaps needlessly but what the heck, that folks who don't hunt this "jungle" might not understand... like the sound of the safety, or the color of tape I would use on my rifle muzzle... you can end up CLOSE to the animals. Real close. Because you cannot SEE them if you aren't!

-jeff

Jeff,
Yep alot of close in hunting..slowwww going ..Listening, watching, smelling..Usually pretty damp or wet tho, which makes sneaking around easier..:)

Always fun when one does see a small herd of Roosevelt elk in the stuff..usually there's three to five more within softball pitching range you haven't seen yet ..but often are seeing YOU..:) Then like a covy of noisy grouse, they charge thru the stuff out of view..unless you are fortunate enuf to have your things ready and on the bull you can legally shoot..Jim

Jim maybe or mountains are as steep as some rocky mountians we just can't see the top. When you can smell a elk or even a buck you know your close or if they step on your feet that is also another good clue

Jim have you ever had to get off a trail for fear of getting ran over? I have not but once when we kids were up shooting the 22 and we stopped to eat a sandwich in a old skidder road. One of my buddies got up to come over and get something from my lunch as he was standing by me a deer came flying off the bank and landed right we where he been setting seconds ago we always wondered what spooked that doe and what would have happend if he had not came over to get a peice of candy..

ehunter, Whether the mountains are 10K above sea level or 2K, when the lines on the topo map( 20 foot intervals) are nearly touching, that's usually steep enuf for me..:)
Never come close to getting run over by elk..:)but have had them close enough I could almost touch them as they passed by..
Elk are funny herd critters..Once they decide to move, alarmed or not, they pretty much follow the lead animal..usually an older cow..The rest of the herd just fall in behind the leader and keep pace with the lead elk..
Often I have had them pass by me noisily and I don't think they were even aware I was less than ten feet from them..( cows yearlings and calves, no bulls that morning) Jim

I hunt along the top of a canyon like that. I almost went down into it last year to try to get another guy his elk. There is one way down and back out and I have watched two guys try to get an elk out of it.
Can't say which was worse as I have had a few. One year, the last day of the season I saw raghorn through some dense aspen. I poked a few shots at him with my 86 , 45-70,but just killed few trees. After awhile I began to think that this was the only horn I had seen in 10 days and maybe I should try to follow him.There was no snow, but I could pick up a few scuffs in the duff in the trees.

In about a quarter mile he went into some thick timber so I crept in and sat down against a big pine. I had one of those old plastic envelope cow calls made by Elk Inc and blew it once real low.Darn if that bull didn't jump up, not 25 yds away. He stood behind two horizontal logs and I could see his chest and 1/2 a head. It was in a 4 point or better area, and I had to keep raising the gun and then the binoculars trying to grow another point. The 86 had a full octagon barrel and peep sight. It weighed 13 lbs fully loaded with 405 gr bullets and was getting heavy holding it up and keeping still. I finally saw the 4th point and threaded a bullet between those two logs, right down his brisket.He rered up on his back feet and went over backwards and crashed about 50 yds back into the roughest blow down there.
He ended up with his head under a log about 15 inches in diameter, one back leg up over the log and a front foot wrapped around a small pine about 4" in dameter. Here I am, all 150 lbs, trying to move 400 lbs of elk enough to gut it. I had small axe in my pack to cut the pine down and I had to cut the elk's head off to get it free and then using two ropes I was able to get the one hind quarter back off the log.
I got it gutted and quartered and layed the quarters on the log, then went back to camp to get some help. Only to find the rest of the camp had pulled out except my brother. So we led two mules back up the mountain and the proceded to carry the elk quarters out to the mules by walking along the blow down logs which at some points were about 6 ft off the ground. Some where I have a picture of my brother up on one of those logs.
We got back down to camp,saddled two more mules nd packed the elk down to the truck about 6 miles and then rode back up to camp. Got there about 10PM. The next day me and my brother had to break camp and then pack it all out ourselves.
If you scroll back to the photo I posted, that bull was killed just above the 2nd set of rocks on the left side of the photo above the green pines. We were camped in the little grove of pines at the very right side of the photo just past the open grass

We usually have about 1/2 our group camp near their trucks and 1/2 back pack in several miles down the canyons, and hunt with one or two, sometimes three more guys, sleeping where ever darkness finds us,trying to leave no indication we were ever there, untill we get a couple ELK down in the group,then spend most of the rest of the season packing out meat, and making dry ice runs. after a couple days some members swap groups, but the state average success runs close to 20% filling tags ,we run generally double that or better.
some guys don,t want to work that hard, but personally I think most of the MASHOCISTIC FUN in HUNTING ELK is getting into and out of the remote areas and getting the ELK we shoot out and lisening too the road hunt crowd, we run into near camp bitch about there being "NO ELK"...........probably because THERE ARE DARN FEW ELK standing around looking stupid within a 1/2 mile to a mile of roads with moving trucks on them most of the time...........that and knowing that the vast majority of the hunt we see no or at least very few other hunters down in those canyons, as most guys push the herds down in but won,t follow...yeah! before you ask I almost always regret needing too be packing out the meat for awhile,durring the climb out, but that passes

Saddlesore good story I could picture the elk all tangled up. We had one elk that rolled under a log we had to do the gut less method we had trouble getting him out from underneath. I read some of your stories about the mule and horse issues they were a eye opener so just having mules and horses doesn't mean it gets any easier it just a new set of problems.

340 mag I have a problem when I look at my toes and all I can see is air like your canyon, but your right I bet you have very little competition from other hunters. How much ropeing do you have to do? Can you take the elk down or do you have to come back up? Man that is rougher than taking it out on a road we have since bought game carts that may have been our undoing.

I think the best thing about working that hard to get a elk out is setting down and having a cold one while the road hunters gawk at the meat or the heads just give them a nod and toast and smile.

I have a friend who is a elk nut he is one of those guys that as far as I know has only missed getting his elk once or twice in 30 years. He loves those kinds of canyons and he just smiles and gets a twinkle in his eye he has yet to meet a canyon he doesn't like. Of course he was a hounds men back when you could chase cats in Oregon and if you know some of those guys they are any way.

I like these stories about the country you guys hunt and the way that people do it. This is a whole lot better than reading a hunting mag about elk hunting.

I think you can take experienced elk hunters and put them in any new country and they will find elk their success rate may not be as high as their area but they do know how much work to put into it and where to start and what to look for.

As a bow hunter in Oregon I truly admire rifle hunters who hunt on the westside during general season it is crowded and all those roads we walked in on during our season are open for trucks and the road hunters are every where. I have taken my son a couple of those hunts and while we did find elk he was not able to connect but I did not really have a clue how to hunt those areas even though I had been seeing elk in there almost every day during bow season. Even our honey holes had hunters in there. For me it was a eye opener..

Weve almost always boned out the meat and packed it out in large ziploc bags after cooling it off in a snow bank or stream before packing it out, we try to limit packs to under about 80 lbs for the trip out and it usually takes several guys two trips to recover an ELK. YEAH! Im well aware of that leave the sex evidence attached B.S. so one ham gets carried out almost whole, (minus leg bones ) but the hide, bones and most of the innereds seldom gets pulled out, LIVER, heart all the meat and horns do,yeah!,

We do the same thing although we don't have the snow option. The proof of sex is a pain in the rear though. I screwed up on my deer last year in Oregon if you leave the head attached you are alright but right before we went home I boned the deer out and took the head but had I got stopped and checked they could have given me a ticket because I didn't have the boy parts attached ..00ps I didn't think about that until after I the season?

Have you guys been doing the gutless method?? I am going to try that on our next elk usally we break it down and then bone it out we carry some plastic el cheapo painters tarps that we lay the meat on and then bag the meat up and haul it out.


Weve almost always boned out the meat and packed it out in large ziploc bags after cooling it off in a snow bank or stream before packing it out, we try to limit packs to under about 80 lbs for the trip out and it usually takes several guys two trips to recover an ELK. YEAH! Im well aware of that leave the sex evidence attached B.S. so one ham gets carried out almost whole, (minus leg bones ) but the hide, bones and most of the innereds seldom gets pulled out, LIVER, heart all the meat and horns do,yeah!,

"we carry some plastic el cheapo painters tarps that we lay the meat on and then bag the meat up and haul it out."

that pretty much covers it! but I usually cut them up while Ive got them hanging from a tree or tri-pod I fabricate (I carry a smal 1000 lb 4 sheeve block & tackle pulley and two guys can lift an ELK with that reasonable ease...(should have bought TWO as I can,t find a duplicate high quality pulley anyplace)its got 4 wheels on both pullies and parachute cord its not that big or heavy but its seen many elk hung just fine

Here is my hunting buddy glassing for deer last year. Already had both my cow elk tags filled and was looking for a bull.


Here�s a raghorn 6x6 I took out of a herd of 80 or so a few years back. Nothing but sage for miles in every direction.


My first cow from last year, from a herd of around 25. There were trees a mile away at the creek below and in the hills a couple hundred yards behind where we were sitting in the sage (I�m actually facing the hills in the picture).


Took my second cow last year off this hill, herd size around 30. Sparse, short grass everywhere, watched the elk for over a mile as they approached.


Took my deer last year just a short while after this picture was taken. Have taken elk out of this area in the past.


This kind of country is more to my liking, though. That�s Dave on the left, me on the right. My cow is down 260 yards farther back on the hill and out of the picture to the left.

wow that is really wide open...

How do you hunt that open country? Is there a lot of belly crawling in cactus like pronghorn? Are these late season hunts after migration? Do the elk feed on the sage brush like deer. If so how do they taste?

It was a tangled blowdown MESS where I hunted elk last season:



This is the canyon below our camp:



Purty country down at the bottom of the canyon:



-jeff

Lots of glassing helps. Usually the elk are migrating and hole up on a hill top or in the tall sage. The first elk I took out of this country (downhill and to the right of the truck a few years before that picture was taken) was part of a herd of 80 or so that we spotted at 11:00 in the morning. They bedded down on a knoll and we couldn�t get any closer than 500-600 yards. We hid behind some sage on a ridge and watched them until dusk, sitting through sunny skies, wind, rain, sleet, a short blizzard and more sunshine. At dusk they moved off the knoll and we were able to close to 450 yards using the ridge as cover. I then went the last 100 yards on my back, head first through 6� of fresh snow, knee-high sage and lots of barrel and prickly pear cactus, pushing myself with my feet. Closed to 350 yards and sealed the deal with a shot from the sitting position just as shooting light and legal shooting hours expired. Other times we just get in the migration path and wait. Have spotted a few loners or couples (usually cows) that we stalked. We set up early one morning and soon found ourselves surrounded. Another time we spotted a herd of 9 bulls and my buddy stalked to within 50 yards. Unfortunately he only had a cow tag.

The elk spend the summer and fall in the high country and don�t taste any different than the ones we shoot up there.

Jeff what unit was that is it Murders Creeks we have 8 points and have been thinking about going over there. Looks like you and Saddlesore can give the rest of us log walking training.

Coyote hunter that would tough for me to hunt but I think it would be fun. Eastmans had a Idaho hunt on tv last week and alot of the country looked like that. I am thinking it would be a darn tough bow hunt

That's Desolation unit, ehunter. If you hunt that unit, I recommend getting horse-packed deep into that canyon! We didn't and didn't see many elk. Talked with a guy who did, nad they saw lots. We did get a nice spike, though.

-jeff

We have talked about hunting those canyons but getting a packer to bring them out. I don't mind going in and getting out for the most part . I am old and smart enough now to know that its in my best interest to budget the money for a horse packer and have a phone number in case. At least at that time of the year you have days to get it out if it is cool not hours like bow season but if we go it will be with a rifle I want to shoot a bull with a rifle. I have got enough elk with the bow. I want a new life experience and I am enjoying the rifle thing a lot now. I will get to try my new kimber on deer and antelope this fall. To me elk hunting with a rifle and the time of the year and how to hunt them is as strange as all get out to me. I am not sure how to hunt them other than wander around in likley looking elk spots.

Jeff

Look familar?

JDK, Yep!!

Tell your tale, JDK! This has evolved into an elk-killin' story thread, and yours is a good one!

-jeff

Sounds good we are all eyes

Hint: JDK is the guy I talked with both before and after the Desolation hunt, who was horsed into that canyon.

ehunter, there are trails into that canyon, but the elk aren't by them and I'll tell you what it'd be about all a guy could do to go down one of those trails and then make it back out in a day... much less hunt... there was some depressed and tired-looking guys coming out of there.

I met an old codger who's family had been hunting there since the 40's. He clued me into some old trails that were not on the maps. We used those to get down in there. If you got off the trails the blowdown was so bad you could take 10 minutes to go 50 yards!

I came out of it thinking that the only way I'd do that hunt again would be to be horse-packed in like JDK. At least then, you are starting the day out where you want to be!

-jeff

Ten minutes for fifty yards is about right.

now THAT looks very familiar, to me as ELK country......in many ways, and its that type of blow-downs and timbered slopes that make shots over about 200-250 yards rare, simply because you can rarely see 150-250 yards in most places even if looking at the opposite slope face

Triple the diameter of some of those logs and stick some new growth between them and you will get an idea of some of the areas I get into

Up until last November I had zero elk hunting experience. We hunted Desolation and had a nice but tough hunt. I personally saw 12 bulls for the week and shot a 4x5 on the last morning. Passed on two bigger bulls 5x5 and a 6x5 (stupid stupid stupid) but really had my heart set on a 6x6. I saw one of those Saturday evening but he was about 450 yards away across a draw and with my 308 I was uncomfortable at that range. The gun is up to it but I'm not sure I am.

One of the things that impressed me was really how similar it was to hunting here in northern maine. Lots of empty country with patches of what I'd call gamey lands. After the first barrage on opening morning, it was apparent that the bulls really dove into the regen. Later in the week after the pressure dropped off, the bulls seemsed to relax a little. We worked really hard, camped under the stars 2 nights so we didn't have to walk so far and saw a lot of elk. Also saw a bear, cougar, 6-7 mulies and a ton a grouse.

I can't wait to hunt elk again.

JDK's experience is perhaps the single thing that most moved me towards being willing to pry open my wallet and pay a pro to get me into the good stuff.

Saddlesore... i should have put my rifle in that picture for scale. Those are big logs, some of them!

It is/was gorgeous country; loved that part of it. But the elk weren't where we were (if we'd been PEOPLE huntin' we'd have tagged out <g>) and getting where they were was not gonna happen on a practical level.

They'd had a cow hunt there the week before, so it looked like aliens had taken the elk. TONS of elk sign... a week old. I will try to avoid that in the future- hunting a bull tag when there's been a cow hunt right before it.

One interesting thing to me is how much stuff changes in a relatively small geographical distance. The unit we used to hunt, Ukiah, borders Desolation and in fact I've hunted down from our camp on Big Creek into the eastern edge of that canyon (the pics are from the western edge). You could see the mountain in Ukiah that we hunt, Tower Mountain, from where we were camped in Desolation. As the crow flies it couldn't have been 20 miles to Tower Mountain, but things were really different. The blowdown being one of them. Tower Mountain has it's blowdown, but not like THAT, except in the burned areas.

-jeff

We did get an elk BTW. Jerry killed a big spike on the 2nd day. 320 yards, 225 Accubond from a 338 WM, DRT...

I found a neat spot up there. Looked both elk-y and hard to get to on the map... and it was both. It was all I could do to get into it, scout/hunt it a little on day 4, and get back out in a day. There were fresh bull tracks and fresh sign from a small herd that was obviously holed up there. Went in a different way on day 5, using the marks I'd set on my GPS to allow me to drop in on it, and got real close to a bull on the last day of the hunt in that little bowl. Got ratted out by a squirrel when I was in easy smelling distance of that bull. I let him move off, since he hadn't actually seen or smelled ME, just heard this little rodent going ballistic 50 yards downwind from him... probably should have blown my cow call and charged in on him, in hindsight.

That was out of the canyon proper- out of the wilderness area, actually.

Neat country... but then elk country usually is.

Ironically there's elk within 6 or 8 miles of me as I sit typing this! Oregon coast range Roosevelts. A different game.

-jeff

True thing. And at the end, if you're desperate enough, you can tag the horse! :-)

Dude... could happen! I don't even like the damn things.

-jeff

We had a coupla horses when I was in high school. I like them. As family pets they're pretty cool. I was never a real comfortable or enthusiastic rider, somehow my sister's wound up with the riding "duties" and I wound up with the shovel. :-(

I'm around them a lot; we take care of our neighbor's when she's gone, etc.

I don't hate 'em, but they don't move me!

I will probably take some riding lessons this summer to get ready for getting packed into that big ol' canyon this fall <g>. That would probably be a BAD time to start the learning process.

-jeff

Jeff I will bet your ridding mules and they are pretty easy to ride.

The outfitter said that there are whole stretches you can get off and just walk alongside the mules and horses if you want... says a lot of guys do that to rest their knees. It hurts your knees to ride a horse!?

Sounds like an adventure. I'm all about adventure. To turn things back towards the intent of this thread, the whole idea is to NOT worry about the firearm... NOT spend the money on guns and gack... but rather spend it to get in deep into relatively unpressured elk.

The outfitter says we'll never see another hunter, and any shots we hear will be from one of the guys in our camp. I like that! Plus, in that steep country, to have someone who will go get your elk out of whatever hole it dies in is pretty cool too.

-jeff

Jeff you should consider some bike cycle shorts to wear under your pants if your not used to the saddle we did that to avoid the chafering that comes from ridding when you do not do it very much the padding was nice too and nobody but us knew we had them on . Yep I will be waiting for the stories and pictures make sure you have lots of batteries your going to have a busy fall...

Knock on wood, Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise...

I'm trying really hard NOT to be preoccupied with firearms... other than practicing with what I got.

Then again I know that what I got is serious elk medicine, overkill really, so that helps <g>.

-jeff

When I stop eating and breathing regularly you can call it preoccupation!

The bicycle shorts help alot. If you have any prostate problems, the padding helps that also. If not the shorts, at least wear poly long johns. Anything that helps you slide.

Years ago, guys use to wear panty hose,but you sure didn't want to be seen with them.

Sore knees can happen, but correctly adjusted stirrup length and sccabard placement can help. Too short of stirrup length is the most common culprit

Saddlesore, I'm 42 years old.

At my age, guys are in complete denial about even the POSSIBILITY of prostate problems!

:-)

-jeff

Trust me, 8 hrs in the saddle and when you get off,you will wonder why that thing won't work. Before you got on,you could probably write your name in the snow. After, you will have probles just gettin your initials done.

All,

Eight hours in the saddle without a walk-stretch-piss-grub-drink break is way too long.

Particularly if it's not your own a good saddle horse or mule you are familiar with..and it with you..and the saddle and stirrups are fitted for some other person..you'd be lucky to walk unaided after eight hours...let alone function or hunt..or deal effectively with a camp whore..:)

Olson..42?...:)You ain't even seen age or pain yet..:) Jim

That's what you old codgers keep telling me, but, I'm in denial.

You know my legs feel great the last year or so. I think skiing hard the last 3 seasons has really helped my bad hip, ironically.

I would imagine the groin muscles are gonna be SORE for a guy not used to riding, eh?

-jeff

Saddlesore I was going to mention the nylons but didn't want to be known as a girly girl but I hear they work although

I have a friend who has logged all over the US we were having dinner at a bachelor party for a buddy there were about 20 guys carring on and talking it was pretty rowdy and he started talking about logging in the south and being in water all day and he was saying that they bought all the nylons out that the local 7-11 and were them every day for 3 weeks about that time I looked around the table it was dead silent half the guys had a fork stopped in mid air a bunch had drinks half the way to their face and all eys were on him. It was the funnier than heck he had to explain it all over again.

My oldest daughter had this friend, Carl, who used to come over to our rural property to play. Living in the woods, play dates are what it's all about; no real neighborhood.

It all ended when they were about 5 years old, and little Carl mentioned needing new panties to his dad.

-jeff

lol I can understand that. grin!!

I found this video of Saddlesore, Jeff O, and ehunter in elk camp..:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Sp9sVReIis

Hey Jim you had to be behind the camara and I think that was Jeff the lead singer in the glasses grin!!! Boy those bos had moves I think Saddlesore all those log tripping trips paid off nice You were really grooving there. LOL

ehunter, nothing like an adult beverage to limber up an old saddlehunter after 8 hours on a horse in rough country..:)
and now you've seen Jeff O at his best after a day's hunting..:)Jim

That is flat out FUNNY!!! :-) Thanks for the morning chuckle!

Where in the world did you find that? Search on "saddle sore" or something?

Disclaimer: yes I have been in some bands. Yes I'm sure we looked like dorks <g>. But not like THAT! :-)

Hey Jim- PM sent!

-jeff

Jeff, I'm an old Huey Lewis music fan..and that vid was too funny to pass up..:) Jim

Jeff -

Groin muscles never were an issue, it's knees and inside of thighs. The horse is sorta roundish on top making your feet stick out somewhat and the weigh of feet, shoes, and stirrups twist the knee joint sideways. Different horses' shapes are different so it's not a constant deal. We had 2 horses. The one I usually rode, if I rode, was a morgan mare and she was bad that way, almost flat on top. On the other hand, she was much the safer to ride. The other one was a quarter horse / arabian mix and terminally dumb. The original dizzy blonde horse. He didn't have sense enough to watch his feet so he'd shortcut across canyons where there was no dirt, just air, and wonder why he was falling. His plus though was a relatively skinny back so when riding, my feet were more nearly under me. The mare was a retired cow horse, the gelding had spent his whole life in a stable. For the thighs, it depends on a good saddle fit.

Best thing I can say is every hour or so, get off and walk for 5-10 minutes to let the blood circulate, knees recover a little, etc. After a couple hour ride, I had a hard time walking back to the house from the barn. Legs just didn't really want to operate normally.

Tom

Greaaaat.

I bet I end up walking next to the damn thing half the time!

No point getting packed in there, if my legs are too stove up to function afterwards. Gonna need my legs in there.

-jeff

Oh, I think it's well worth being packed in. Even if you walk the whole way, the horse can carry camp in and elk meat back. You don't have to over dress just to have warm gear, you can carry a little more stuff to camp more comfortably ... etc.

Another thing I like about horses is they are pretty good lookouts around camp. If there's any sort of critter lurking around they'll generally smell it and raise a fuss.

Tom

Yeah, that's the idea- let the mules carry enough stuff that we can have a comfortable camp. Otherwise it'd be a spartan backpacking camp, and frankly while I'd do that, the other guys wouldn't. No way. Our normal elk camp is an embarrassment of "stuff".

-jeff

Terrific post KC. You said what I had been thinking for a long time. Some really excellent and informative responses shared some really valuable hard earned experience. My personal thanks.

I've often noticed frequent, almost passionate, arguments over merits of a bullet or caliber vs. another, yet almost everyone will agree that there is hardly anything legal that won't be lethal if bullet is placed properly. This site has a rich tradition of being heavy on the topic of firearms compared to other sites that dwell more on hunting technique, campcraft, methodology, etc.

I really enjoyed the examples of various terrains that people hunt and I would like to add one more.

I've had much of my success by climbing above other hunters -habit from years of mountaineering activities. Traversing above treeline on this sunlit peak in the background (and ones like it) is the type of hunt that has been productive for me. Timberline is 11,500 in the photo.

Gees I would have to take a oxygen bottle with me to up there nice photo though.

Alamosa:

I can't figure out where that picture was taken. Not steep enough for the Sangres. San Juans, maybe some place near Sawatch Park or Cochetopa Pass? I hunted Sawatch Park, the Weminuche and over on the Creed side but that was a couple of decades ago.

What's the name of that peak?

KC

That is Hermosa Peak in the photo taken from the Graysill ridge in GMU 74. It is also pretty typical of the type of higher terrain I hunt in the Weminuche and Sangres as well.

I've met a number of other regional, SoCo, hunters that I guess you could call alpine elk hunters. My own style of hunting depends heavily on the wind and sometimes I have to get to these altitudes just to find any wind. It's a b!tch bringing an animal down from those elevations but at least it's downhill and there are usually good opportunitys for cooling the meat.

I've noticed that elk found at these altitudes seem to always have escape routes planned in advance - just like elk anywhere else - they never seem to me more than a few seconds from the exit.

So are you finding the elk in the basins? Is it hit and miss with the snow? Seems like you must have a small window of time to hunt them in the fall?? I am guessing you bump some nice deer in there as well.

Only on very rare occasions have I seen snow accumulations enough to impede hiking above timberline before December. A more common problem is the weather can change really fast and hit really hard. When the rock gets covered with a layer of ice footing can be really treacherous. Lightning gets real personal when there is no cover. It suks getting forced down the mountain by some route you dont want to take and then having to take the long way back. Fortunately elk don't usually go too far above their safety zone of trees unless they are traveling somewhere.

Along the ridge atop the Sangre de Cristo's there is a spot where the ridgeline drops to 12,500ft - just low enough for a few trees to cover a saddle and provide some cover. This is a natural passage for game animals crossing from one side to the other. I took this photo of this large broken arrowhead I found in that saddle.

This was evidence to me that hunters had been climbing high to bag their game for a long time around here.

Awesome pic and irrefutable evidence you are hunting someone else's honey hole.

Alamosa:

That's a really cool picture. It would be nice to get some idea of scale. Are you sure it's a broken arrowhead? Could it be a scraper?

KC

That is cool hunting where hunting as been going on for hundreds of years that will give you goose bumps.

I absolutely love this thread and the premise behind the original post. Don't get me wrong, I like a little gun talk too, but THIS is the type of information that a guy perusing the elk hunting forum is really looking for.

I tried to start a thread a while back to get some tips on late season hunting. If anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated. The last time I elk hunted was almost 20 years ago and even then it was more of following my dad around, him getting me into the elk and him field dressing it for me. After that we hiked back to the truck and paid a guy to follow us back with horses to pack him out. To say my elk hunting experience is limited is an understatement. I've been twice in my life and to be honest the only thing that I learned (through no fault but my own) is that I walked a lot, and killing was the easiest part. In hindsight I wish I would have paid more attention to the details, but that's long gone. I got back into hunting for the first time in 20 years (I'm 36) last year, and I'm feeling more enthusiastic about it with every passing day. To think about the time in my life that I wasted by not hunting bums me out, but I figure better late than never.

This season I was fortunate enough to draw for a late season bull tag in 3A and 3C of Arizona. For those of you familiar with the area, I believe, there was close to a world record archery bull taken in this area a couple of years ago. The area is notorious for big bulls. However, the majority of these big daddies are taken during the archery season. By the time my hunt starts (Nov. 28th) they'll have been pressured to high heaven. I would LOVE to take a big bull and that's my primary focus, but my hunt is only 6 days long. I will probably focus my 1st 3 days on trying to take a monster. By the time I get to my final three days, I will probably be in the mood to take anything legal! Considering the fact that I MIGHT draw this same tag (or the one I REALLY want, which is an early season tag in the same area) 2 or 3 more times in my life (if I stay in AZ and put in every year over the next 15 to 20 years), I am very anxious to make this hunt a successful one.

Any advice is truly appreciated (especially concerning late season hunting).

Thanks.

skinsscalper:

SCOUT, SCOUT, SCOUT.

If I were you, I would spend every weekend from now until the season starts, getting to know your hunting grounds and elk movements within that territory. I would study maps, then take lots of day hikes and overnight backpack trips into your area. Take your time and stop to study what you see around you. You will be on fact finding studies and getting somewhere is not the goal. The journey and what you learn along the way, is the goal. Get off the roads and trails. Do lots of cross-country hiking where no one else goes, except the elk. Then transfer all that you have learned onto your maps.

In Colorado the Division of Wildlife publishes big game maps containing lots of good info that's area specific. If AZ offers the same, I would study what they have to offer. See if they show where the elk spend the winter, where they calve, where they spend the summer and the routes by which they get from one place to another. Transfer that info onto your maps too and memorize your maps.

Then take some more day hikes and overnight backpack trips. Learn where the water is, and where the game trails are. Where there are meadows, aspen groves and dark timber. Try to figure out, if you were an elk, where would you get your water, where you would feed and where you would hide through the night. Learn where the mean nasty hiding places are located and how to get into those places in the dark before the sun rises.

If you wait until hunting season to do all this, it will be too late. You need to know this stuff before the season starts so you can develope several hunting strategies that are based upon field gathered data. You need to know your hunting area like your back yard and you need to know how and when the elk move within that area, specially how they move as a response to weather.

BTW if you think that you can be successful and not do this because the wife has other plans, or you have to take the kids to soccer games, or you have to work, or you have to go on vacation somewhere else, or you have to visit the realtives, or you have a weak back, then forget hunting. This summer you have spend hunting and other priorities have to wait.

Good luck and safe hunting.

KC

skinsscalper:

Did I mention that you have to do lots of scouting?

KC

Yeah, I think you covered that!

You are, of course, correct... one little thing though. Scouting helps a LOT, but the elk's behavior will change completely once the shooting starts. So, some "social engineering" is in order, too. If skinscalper can find people who've hunted that exact unit and ply them with beers or something, and find out how to integrate the intel he gets from heavy scouting, with what guys who have hunted it tell him about the elk behavior once the season starts... THEN he'll really have something! IMHO.

-jeff

Hire somebody to fly you over it. You can learn more in 30 minutes than is three weekends. And you don't have to fly that low.

Yep,the best laid plans from scouting can be crapped up when 50 other hunter show up. Talk to the DOW game biologist and get informatin as to how much hunting pressure is in the area you intend to hunt

re-read my first post on this thread, you can FREQUENTLY PREDICT the elks flow OUT of the more popular areas , and into the remote harder to reach areas,to a very high degree in most cases with careful study of the terrain and natural funnels and camp and road access, PROVIDED you do the research necessary as to the natural barriers and access points and it gets even more predictable after talking to locals and hunting an area a few years.
HUNTERS are MORE predictable than the ELK in that hunters rarely wade chest deep streams or climb over steep slopes or get more than about 2-3 miles from roads or obvious trails, to get access to areas (ESPECIALLY IN STEEP CANYONS) if your serious youll serious youll take that info and cross those barriers to get to far better hunting.
EVERY year I get asked WHERE we got THAT ELK, and when I truthfully point into some deep canyon and suggest hunting the far slope and remind them they need to wade a 2-4 foot deep stream to get access they mumble something and say , yeah RIGHT! like you really did that!(after they drive off, our group usually laugh, as they drive off, we consistantly have ELK,usually more than one at the season close, they don,t, but WE ARE the DUMMIES)
many times its as simple as walking two miles in rolling hills to get access or just crossing a steep canyon to hunt the far ridge and next drainage,but you need to know that the next ridge and canyon beyond doesn,t have road access or youll waste your time and effort

I never cross streams that are more than over the tops of my boot bottoms( on my mule that is).

The typical area we hunt and is common in CO is Wilderness areas Not big by Montana or Wyoming standards. Ten miles will put you coming out the other side or at least meat hunters coming in from the other side. Up to 3 miles in you will still see on foot hunters and quite a few of them. In the 4-6 miles, you will run into the outfitter's camp. Count on at least one, some times up to three in every drainage with 4-6 hunters in each camp. The add the DIY hunters like me .

You have to get those elk flow patterns down, but expect elk to come through every three days or so becasue they leave the counrty and then hit other just as pressured areas and the same elk or differnt herds comeback around. Most of the Wilderness areas are surrounded by private land and it does not take long for the elk to figure out that they are not shot as as much there and they all eventually end up on the private,

Figuring out what they elk do and where they go from other hunters is more imposrtant than figuring out what they do otherwise.

The following photo ,which I posted previously is a good example,.

You can go to the very top where there are huge flat meadows and count herds of 2-300 hd of elk all though the summer. By the 1st week of September,the archers have run them off. By mid Spetember the muzzle loader hunters have run them off the top to the timber between the rock cliffs. By the 1st rifle seaosn,they are in the blow downs below the rocks and after the 1st season, a lot are headed towards private land. Late seasons,they herd up and you find them where ever the grass is the best.

Climbing down into a canyon and up the other side,usually just puts you into a differnt group of hunters over there or down in the canyon

Great pic Saddlesore.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, which is great... do you find cows in different areas than bulls during the 1st Rifle.

I have read many times that cows and bulls use habitat differently, but it is not described in detail. Post-rut, when the cows and bulls separate where would you look for each in the area of your picture? Or also in a general sense?

Thanks in advance.

RTR. In the 1st season, the last few years,bulls are still bugling, picking up any cows that didn't get bred or are cycling late. Bugling is sparse though because of all the previous hunting pressure in archery and muzzleloader season, coupled with all the pack strings goiung in and out making a lot of racket,setting up camps ,etc.

So you might or might not find cows and bulls,together. In this picture,I took 8 bulls out of that bowl in the late 80's and early 90's. The biggsest, 5 x 6, was taken just above the dark row of pines on the right side of the photo. Look for the very small pine in the flat of the meadow and go diectly above that above the dark pines.
My camp was always in the pines at the extreme right of the photo, just into the pines in the foreground.We kept a quiet camp though.
I took two more raghorns about 200 yds downhill of that 5 x 6.

I took one bull above the top bare rock face on the left side of the photo,and took 3 bulls just outside the photo on the right hand side about 1/2 way up. I also took two more bulls in back of where this photo was taken.

Hunting partners also took 4 more bulls in the same vacinity in the same time frame.

Typically we see as many cows in those areas as bulls

The last few years, I have been hunting later seasons,and have not been hunting as high. I have been shooting a cow every year except one when I broke two ribs.

This coming year,I might not get to go due to recent back surgery,but if I do, I will have a cow tag for an early Sept rifle season and I will hunt higher and I can buy a 2nd cow tag for the 2nd combined season and will hunt a little lower.

Last year , we did not get into any elk until Wed ,and we found them about 500 ft below the rock cliffs.

What you can't see in the photo is that a lot of the pine is nasty blow down timber where the elk hole up. SHots are usaully taken in feet rather than yards

I have never seen one elk in that meadow and I hunted around it for 10+ years or more.

Pre rut, cows and bulls will mingle together with more of the bigger bulls off in solitude. During rut,the bulls will go where the cows are. It is a misconception that the bulls move the cows where they want them to go. The bulls will keep the cows together and push them here and there,but come time to move and an old lead cow is more likely to take the herd and go.

Post rut,the bulls will leave the cows and go find a hidey hole, with water, good grass and seclusion in order to recooperate from rut. Some spikes and small raghorns may stay with the cows and some juvenile and biggerbulls will form bachelor groups. Older mature bulls tend to go off by themselves.

As the weather turns bad,the elk will start to herd up more, seeking southern slopes that are not covered with snow,and retreating into the timber during the day and early winter snow storms for protection. Bulls will start to herd up with the cows at this time, but still the older mature bulls tend to hang back. As the snow gets deeper,those herds will move down in elevation and usually co-mingle with other smaller herds. At this time you will see bulls and cows together again.

The more snow and the colder it is the longer the elk will stay out feeding.They have to have those calories to stay warm. Later in the fall and in early winter, thier diet will switch to more browse instead of grass as the grass has a lot less food value in it by then and usuualy is covered with snow.

It is interesting hearing about the different areas that we hunt. One of the things we have noticed is that where we hunt we are hunting private timber companies in Western Oregon there is very little Federal land and the state land is over run with roads and people. The gates are closed and the areas while steep are not really that big. 5 years ago we could walk into our area and never see a person it was a 3 mile walk up hill until we started hunting very light pressure during bow season. Then we started using bike basicaly pushing up hill and ridding out. As GPS got more popular and people discouvered bikes started to see more and more people. Last year opening morning we saw 10 people in our area most of them on bikes. While they don't bother in the brush they are bugling from their bikes on the roads and talking and the sounds carrying into the canyons. The good thing is the elk flat won't bugle back to some one on the road they know. So last year it seemed to be a foot race and we moved on to another area. One moring we got a late state hey we are in our early 50's and decided to go back in that area any way on the way in there were 4 trucks every body was long gone and gone up higher. We decided to take it easier and explore the lower country. Long story we called in 2 bulls in two mornngs less than 600 yards from the parked trucks every body on top of the ridges had pushed the bulls down. We had seen elk in the big cuts but very little bugling and almost no bulls. Down on the bottoms we started to see find rubs and fresh trails all over the place because they elk had been pushed down and every one else had been going on past them. You can bet I will be sleeping in more this year and getting to the gate a little later and we will be in elk heaven....I hope.

ehunter. I have been trying to tell people for years to hunt were other people are not rather than where the books say elk live. In high pressure areas, one has to throw out the rule book because elk have no rules except to stay alive.

I have a little honey hole down north of Gunnison in Co that I have killed an elk every time I went in there or passed up a shot. Both bulls and cows. The outfitter in that area takes his hunters right by it every morning heading up higher.
DYI hunters camp by it but never hunt it.I never let them see me go in or pack elk out of it.
In Northern CO,north of Vail in the Eagle Nest Wilderness, we hunt an area that there is a road up on top of a bluff and the outfitters ride in on the ridge on theoposite side.We go down the canyon and shoot elk come from both directions. Right along avery popular hiking trail.

I hunt smart instead of hunting hard.

Yep as I get older I get smarter but we are learning grin!!

You know it always seemed to me that the futher out we got the better but so does every one else. I respect what 340mag is saying and for years that worked for us but again we are in different kinds of country. The funny thing about this was last winter I took my brother in on a rifle hunt into our elk spot on top the ridge when we left the gate we thought cool first in of course we left 2 hours before day light got on top about 2.5 miles in spotted a herd of 30 elk at day light all cows. Dang the elk got spooked out by another hunter. As we walking out we found 5 different groups of guys had been watching that herd All from different gates Crapola I didn't know that many guys were in there almost 3 miles back at first light. So I suggested my new honey hole as we walked in we jumped another bunch in there but we all were saw were tails we get in there about 1/2 mile and we ran into one guy we started talking and he was shocked to see us. He had rifle hunted that area for 2 years and we were the first people he ran into. We were 1/2 a mile from the truck, on flat ground. So yes hunting smarter not harder I think pays dividends I will let you know this year there is a big old 6 point that was hanging out there last year and I think he is still there my fingers are crossed

Thanks Saddlesore. Great information. That is great that you have so much history in this area.

Do you have any pics of the blowdown area or other parts? If the blowdown area is a primary bedding and hiding area, how far out do they move for feeding areas? Still hunting that must be tough.

Do the members of your camp spread out to the locations you know to locate animals and/or do you try to drive them to the others?

What is the width of the area from ridge top to ridge top?

I'd have to scan any blow downs, as they are older.

The elk tend to move out into feeding areas at night A lot of elk now become nocturnal like whitetails during the rifle seasons. A person might catch them at day break or just at dusk but you have about a 15 minute window there. Elk do not needa 10 acre meadow to feed. There are always a lot of 1/2 acre patches in the blow downs around bogs or whatever that provide enough feed. The more pressure they see,the less they move out into bigger areas, except when deep snows start to force them out.

Other hunters in my group just spread out and take different locations. We have always found that trying to drive elk is apoor proposition.
Ridge top to ridge top is probably about 3 miles.

Here is a photo of the country to the right of the above photo. A lot more counrty up higher as you can see.

Here are some photos of elk taken in thick timber blow downs.None were shot up the tail pipe. Sorry for the extra space, should have croped them first

This bullwas shot with 145-70 at about 15yds




This one is my brother carrying an elk quarter along logs in a blow down

Great pics and great info Saddlesore. Hunting one area over and over has paid off. It makes sense they can find lots of small areas for feed in the blowdowns. 15 yards is really close for that nice bull.

We better be careful...someone might start a "perfect blowdown rifle" thread! :-)

Bumping this thread back to the top... really really enjoyed all the great stuff in here... hoping to stimulate MORE!