Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Toby Bridges latest blog

Alright . First im sorry this took so long for me to post .
It took a little longer for me to dig through my files and find it

Now a couple things to remember here before you read these scans

Idaho has its wildlife management alittle different then other states .
This was alluded to earlier when I mentioned that the commission is not a law making body .
The way our system is set up is that we have a Department of Fish and game . That department has sectons that cover everything from hunting to fish .
Within the department is many, many sections ranging from fisheries to big game then you have management and enforcement, each with their own directors and administrative sections .
These are all paid state employee�s .

Now above that we have the Idaho fish and game commission .
On this commission sets one person from each from each region .
These people are not elected officials but appointees . They get no pay only re-imbursements for cost accumulated . They serve for a 4 year term and serve by the will of the governor. At the time of every gubernatorial election . The commission members all resign . The governor then either accepts their resignation or rejects it . In wich case they stay on the commission tell such time their term is fulfilled OR the governor asks for their resignation

Above that is the congress and senate natural resource committee .
This committee is made of of elected officials from the congress and senate
Above them we have the full congress � both houses �

Then we have the governor as the final say .

Now how this works is lets say you want to make a rules change in anything . You approach the fish and game department through a suggestion process .
That goes to the appropriate section within the department .

If that management section feels its feasible , then it goes to their director who recommends it to management . Then the management takes a look . If they feel its feasible then they incorporate it into a recommendation to the Idaho fish and game commission � again made up of NON elected officials and non paid state employee�s �

Now the commission takes a vote . If the commission agrees then its applied as a rule for the next years season . Its interesting to not here that a commissioner can disagree and if they disagree strong enough , they can step above the rule of the commission and disallow that rule within their region .
The same also can be true . If a commissioner agrees with the proposal BUT the total commission does not , , then that commissioner has the power to implement that rule within his region , without the full approval of the commission . This is what Tony McDermott �Panhandle Region commissioner �
did in in the 2007 rules change . in that he converted his regions muzzleloading areas to short range weapons areas so as to Circumvent vent the commissions misapplication of the side lock only rule . which did not apply to short range weapons hunts.

But it cause consequences . that move he also inadvertently aloud muzzleloaders to used everything because those short range weapons rules are not confined by the muzzleloading rules , but are regulated by the any weapon general season rules . as such , completely closed ignitions , variable powered scopes, sabots , sub caliber projectiles , jacked bullet and core lock designs, electronic ignitions , basically any and everything one can think of .
However doing so DID NOT INCREASE the numbers of muzzleloading hunters in those areas . What it did to was raise the sales of shotguns and slug ammunition in the surrounding areas and BOST the numbers of hunters taking part in those hunts .
Which resulted in the next year those hunts again becoming MUZZLELOADING ONLY

Now once a rule is made , by the commission it get implemented for �1� year . In which time the natural resource committee looks it over . IF they accept it , it then goes to a vote of congress as a proposed law . If congress accepts it , then it goes on to the governor for his signature

At any time though that rule can be struck down or changes . again this is what happened with the side lock/ pivoting hammer which was proposed for TRADITIONAL ONLY HUNTS here in Idaho .

During the process of the commission voting , the wording got change to incorporate all muzzleloading hunts . Not just Traditional Only hunts

Now here is the scans I did of the Idaho fish and Game Managements 2007 proposals to the Idaho fish and game commission .,. This is The Fish and Games proposals and their wordings to the commission itself .
Now when you go to ANY meeting where the department is making recommendations . Every person within that meeting is given a copy of the recommendations . The very same on that given to each commissioner .

Now you will notice that under some of the polling box numbers is a section that states RECOMMENDATION : what this is a management clarification or appendix of the above numbered recommendation

After the department reads those recommendations . Then the floor is normally opened for public comment . Such comment is then recorded in the minutes of the meetings and added to any written comment . The reason for the written comment at meetings is that often folks do not want or like to speak in public as such , the process allows for ANYONE who choses to , too write their opinion on a provided card and drop that card into the comment box. All of which will later be read to the commission as a whole .

Now some of this doesn�t pertain to muzzleloading . But I have includes the complete recommendations so as to avoid anyone stating that I purposely left something out .

This report also contains polling of ONLY the internet surveys. It does not include hard copy polling from the regional offices, phone in or written comments

So for those of you from out of state , take close notice of the effect of out of state opinions on those polls
They are listed in each bracket under NONRESIDENT

Now I call your attention to page #1 this page covers all hunting to include center fire .
recommendation rule : 13.01.08. Unlawful methods of take as well as recommendation rule : 13.01.08.410

NOW page 2 is on archery . take a look there folks and you will find the very same push for technoligies as is being pushed in muzzleloading . this is resulting in very much the same fight brewing here in their sport and season

Page 3 is strictly muzzleloading .
Now again I must apologize because I scribbled some notes at the top of the page during the meeting .
What these notes tell me is that the documentations on this page were read verbatim to the commission by Brad Compton Big game manager








Now I call you attention to the wording of rule recommendation :
And the wording of rule #13.01.08.410

Some info to clarify for some of you on the wording of recommendation : 13.01.08.410
We established muzzleloading hunts in in the mid 1970�s . the rules for these hunts excluded modern muzzleloading designed inline rifles . basicly becouse the modern designs were not an issue or even a consideration at that time.

In the early 1990's ,those of us working to get hunts were confronted with the issue that the management department was not willing to establish more hunts do to a relatively low number , �when compared to archery and general season numbers� to provide muzzleloaders with additional hunts . At that time modern muzzleloading basically consisted of older versions of the inline ignitions and the want for conical applications .
A proposal was brought forth to alow modern muzzleloading into the hunts as a way to boost muzzleloader numbers , so as to get additional hunts . But as many of you know , modern muzzleloader boomed in the following years , with all kinds of advancements in powder, bullets and designs ..
So as a way to try and preserve the original intent of the allowance of muzzleloading , some areas were designated in 2001 as Traditional ONLY hunts .
The number of areas was about 50% and nostly in the greater southern area of the state .

Now on to rule #13.01.08.410
Notice the 10 thousand reference in this recommendation . Today the state says we are down to roughly 5000 , even with the allowance of modern muzzleloading .
Now understand that 5000 is done by the number of actual people who say they hunt in a muzzleloading area during a muzzleloading only hunt its not a hard number , just an avarage . It does not include those of us that hunt in the general season , becouse you dont have to by a stamp . NOR the number of stamps sold . The reason they don�t go by stamps is that with our sportsman package � combination license and tags � you also get a muzzleloading stamp.
So judging actual numbers by stamp numbers give a false account of the actual numbers of folks in the field participating in muzzleloading

Now after toby here got involved in this process and stirred up some 2000 resident and NON resident hunters to circumvent the commission and play main stream politics by going to the governor with complaints .
Which is extremely distasteful considering the fact that our system was set up so as to try an d keep politicians out of the process as much as possible .
Which is by the way failing more and more all the time . Thus becoming management based on public opinion more the science

The result was the rule was changed for 2008 by politicans NOT the Fish and Game .
But he and those who supported his views , did not read the wording of recommendation rule : 13.01.08.410 ..
The result was and is that the state held true to what they were saying and basically reduce opportunity .
They did this by removing ALL the traditional only hunts state wide . They closed some hunts completely and converted other hunts to the permit draw only system . Which to remind you all , then ties you in to ONLY that hunt and weapon , when it comes to that species .THUS effectively locking a person who gets that Permit from all other hunts for that species regardless of time or weapons application .

Now there are a few exceptions in that some hunts were left open . The largest % of those areas are in the panhandle . Once again those in the north can thank Tony McDermott for doing that as he foresaw a need concerning whitetail numbers in those areas . But understand that there was a push to shut many of those hunts down as well .


Now many of us Traditional and modern alike requested that the management dept provide the documentation to support the application of this side lock , pivoting hammer rule to ALL muzzleloading areas against what was recommended .
That I know of , NO such supporting evidence was ever sent out to anyone . Most certainly not me .
However the management section has not changed their stance on the issues . Thus what we are running into is that even when a recommendation is ask for for even a new permit only hunt , a closed door is ran into

So now as Txhunter stated in his post / opinion. We now have less available tags . While some folks may say its not true , I have to disagree . For the base reason that when ever you go from an open hunt system to a permit only system , you force a reduction in the number of folks who will buy such a tag or recieve such a tag .As well as most times also apply a limit to the number of tags available in the permit hunt . Thus you have reduce the number of hunters. Basicly a CYA situation. where on one hand it can be said no reduction has been made . But at at the same time its clear it has .

now since this is already long and im getting really miffed here im going to finish this with a scan of the Idaho fish and game news paper Artical that was on news stands at the same time . this is what residents have a lot of access to , that NON RESIDENTS don�t , unless they subscribe or stay up on the situations within a state , ANY STATE .Im not sugesting all states put out this news paper . but what im am saying is that alot if information goes around inside a state that out of state people for the most part never see

So if you are a NON resident and want input on a states issues , its best that you do your research and understand what the issues are . IF you don�t then what happens is you can effect something within the state based on your opinion and dislike for any given state rule , when in fact there very well be more to it then just what you see or think .

Which also can be said to include RESIDENTS who do not take the time to get involved and make knee jerk reactions based on surface opinions on any given subject .






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