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True, but I don't want to carry two guns to a stand. I'll be sitting with my 7x57. It'd be easier just to swap out a cartridge.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Rev,at the distances you kill pigs,a .22 Hornet will work. 
Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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You're probably right!! 
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Yup,I am. But my wife thinks differently. 
Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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That's generally the way it is.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Aug 2009
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Life Member SCI
Life Member DSC
Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell
Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Can you find SR4759 locally? Good stuff for reduced loads. and both have a similar burn rate.. I've always found the data interchangeable... I prefer 4227 in 223 sized cases... Sr 4759 is better in the larger cases, say 243 and up... I run Sr 4759 in a 7 x 57 with a 120 and 130 grain bullet and have taken several deer with it, to include a 210 lb blacktail... which is a big one..
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sr 4759 loads will also quite often give the same point of impact as standard loads with the same bullet weight, which I find convenient...
I use 44 grains of 4064 or 4895 with a 140 grain ballistic tip as one load, and 28 grains of Sr 4759 with a 120 grain ballistic Tip in another load...
both pretty much have the same POI at 100 yds...within minute of say a Robin Sized bird...which is close enough for my needs...
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Thanks SF. The problem is can't find 4759 anywhere, although 4227 is available. Would you use the same charge of 4227 and 4759 interchangeably? What velocity are you getting with the 28 gr load of 4759 and the 120 BT?
Thanks again.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Id have to chronograph it again, as I don't think I have those notes... I've been using that charge since like 2008....just remember the amount as I have a batch of 20 pieces earmarked for that load, and they spend their off season time in a zip lock bag with a 3 x 5 with info on it for company...
I hunt in an area that a 30/30 would be right at home in... so the 120 and that SR 47509 load would be right at home also...
125 yds or less... furthest distance we've killed deer out of that 3000 acres is 150 yds...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Thanks SF. The problem is can't find 4759 anywhere, although 4227 is available. Would you use the same charge of 4227 and 4759 interchangeably? What velocity are you getting with the 28 gr load of 4759 and the 120 BT? Thanks again. The powder ditributor that my LGS uses told them that SR4759 HAS been discontinued. On a side note, they have so much 4227 I don't know if I'll ever afford to buy it all. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ed,
I checked with Hodgdon when that was reported on the Campfire here...I was told by them " don't believe what you hear on the internet ( big surprise), instead call us and we will tell the straight scoop"...
they told me they had no plan of eliminating it from the product line... they just make powders in runs, and of course the slower movers get put on a lower priority...
Unique and Blue Dot have been scarcer than Hen's teeth for several years... but Alliant's Ben Ammonette emailed me back when I asked him and he told me the same thing... no plans of eliminating it... neither is as big of seller as some of their other powders, so its being positioned in the production runs according to its sales standings is all...
At least that was the word, from the factory people, who are the contacts with the public..
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SF
One of the techs at Sierra gave me two starting loads for IMR 4227: 22 grains in 100 gr hp and 21 in 120 gr sp. Have you tried those with any success? Remember, I'm just taking out raccoons.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yeah, I'd rubber stamp those two recommendations...you are not pushing any limits...
if you find any, either of the 4198s are also good powders for that type of duty....
I tend to use charges ranging from 25 to 30 grains in many rifles and calibers, ranging from 243 on up thru 30/06....
for something like Raccoon sized stuff, if we are talking trees in the yard...even down to 20 grains of 4198 works real well...
and yeah, I've used 100 and 120 grain bullets, along with the 110 and 115 grain Speer HPs...
just FYI, the old IMr Brown Sheet for the 7 x 57, listed the following loads as Max for the 7mm Mauser, with 4227
1. 130 grain Speer, 22,5 grains 2080 fps, 44300cup
2. 145 gr Speer, 22.5 grains , 1840 fps, 44400 cup
3. 160 gr Speer, 22.5 grains, 1890 fps, 46000 cup.
hope that helps ya out Rev Mike...
best regards
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Thanks, SF. I appreciate the information.
The application is actually for raccoons raiding feeders, and all shots are within 60 yards. The plan is to find something that shoots to the same POI that I can slip on top of a magazine of full power loads to pick off the raccoons as I'm sitting in a stand.
But here's a question, and please understand that this is coming from a neophyte: How do you know how far you can reduce any given powder charge and it still be safe? For instance, the tech at Sierra said that I didn't want to go down too far with 4227, not for fear of sticking a bullet in the barrel, but for fear of a detonation instead of a controlled burn. His comment was "You don't have an action strong enough to handle that" - meaning that even my M70 and M98 wouldn't contain it. So my question is, How does one know how far to reduce a charge?
Thanks again. You and Mule Deer ought to write a book on reduced loads. I'm serious.
RM
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Mike,
Well first, my knowledge compared to Mr. Barsness is like comparing the volume of a thimble vs a Water Tank...
The only real way I've done it, is to do the opposite of working up, but take a working known load and work down...
different powders can get squirrelly when you start to work down, and will start showing signs of eradic ignition...
all powders will not necessarily work very well...they may get the bullet to shoot, but that isn't accomplishing the objective... you want it to be accurate and safe, and consistent...
I have found shotgun powders work extremely well in many cases...
For a short course in this endeavor, for around $20, or less at a used book store... pick up a current or used Lyman Load Manual for Cast Bullets and work off of that...
Cast bullet loads are no where near what is SAAMI specs, as the most many of them are shot at is about 30/30 speeds...so in many firearms you are nowhere near max pressure, so I have always found using that load data for jacketed bullets work just fine...
but I'll defer that confirmation to Mr Barsness....
but I will point out that many of those shot gun powders have different patterns to them than do regular rifle powders...
an example is that you can take a max load say in a 243, with a 100 grain bullet... with regular rifle powder, you can put more in when using a much lighter bullet and be safe... not so with a shot gun powder...
in a 243, what I found was max with a 100 grain bullet, is also the same charge for max with a 55 or 60 grain bullet....
but follow those Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals and you'll be fine and find a lot of shooting time for cheaper without wearing out your barrel so fast, and also find they are a joy to shoot with how low the recoil is with them...yet with the right bullet they are plenty for deer and smaller at 150 yds or less, 200 or less if you know how to play with your trajectory...
feel free to PM me if you have any questions ever...
best regards
seafire
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Thanks, SF, I really appreciate this. This is really helpful. I'll definitely pick up the Lyman manual.
Again, I appreciate it.
Mike
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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Mike, I have used 10 grains of Unique with both 160 (1387 fps) plus 135 grain (1527 fps) cast bullets and 150 grain but, that one was not accurate and I didn't chrono it. Also used 20 grains of MR 4759 with a poly filler and the 160 cast for 1778 fps. I believe Unique to be about the best powder for reduced loads and have employed it in the .250-3000, 7x57, .308, .30-40, .30'06, .358, and .45-70 maybe more. Unique leaves a lot of air space in the rifle cases so adopt a procedure which will prevent a double charge! I haven't noticed detered accuracy in relation to powder orientation with Unique. If I were searching for a light jacketed, say a 130-140 grain bullet for my 7x57, I'd load 14 grains. Then set up my chronograph, while checking for accuracy, and stop whenever accuracy was satisfied or at 1800 fps which should be in the neighborhood of 16 to 17 grains. Not a recommendation, just telling what I'd do.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
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Campfire Ranger
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Mike,
Well first, my knowledge compared to Mr. Barsness is like comparing the volume of a thimble vs a Water Tank...
The only real way I've done it, is to do the opposite of working up, but take a working known load and work down...
different powders can get squirrelly when you start to work down, and will start showing signs of eradic ignition...
all powders will not necessarily work very well...they may get the bullet to shoot, but that isn't accomplishing the objective... you want it to be accurate and safe, and consistent...
I have found shotgun powders work extremely well in many cases...
For a short course in this endeavor, for around $20, or less at a used book store... pick up a current or used Lyman Load Manual for Cast Bullets and work off of that...
Cast bullet loads are no where near what is SAAMI specs, as the most many of them are shot at is about 30/30 speeds...so in many firearms you are nowhere near max pressure, so I have always found using that load data for jacketed bullets work just fine...
but I'll defer that confirmation to Mr Barsness....
but I will point out that many of those shot gun powders have different patterns to them than do regular rifle powders...
an example is that you can take a max load say in a 243, with a 100 grain bullet... with regular rifle powder, you can put more in when using a much lighter bullet and be safe... not so with a shot gun powder...
in a 243, what I found was max with a 100 grain bullet, is also the same charge for max with a 55 or 60 grain bullet....
but follow those Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals and you'll be fine and find a lot of shooting time for cheaper without wearing out your barrel so fast, and also find they are a joy to shoot with how low the recoil is with them...yet with the right bullet they are plenty for deer and smaller at 150 yds or less, 200 or less if you know how to play with your trajectory...
feel free to PM me if you have any questions ever...
best regards
seafire I think that's the best advice yet. Lots O' knowledge to be gained from that book, even for a non-cast bullet shooter.
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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For a short course in this endeavor, for around $20, or less at a used book store... pick up a current or used Lyman Load Manual for Cast Bullets and work off of that...
Cast bullet loads are no where near what is SAAMI specs, as the most many of them are shot at is about 30/30 speeds...so in many firearms you are nowhere near max pressure, so I have always found using that load data for jacketed bullets work just fine...
but I'll defer that confirmation to Mr Barsness....
seafire John: Yesterday Seafire provided a wealth of information for me in this post. He deferred to you on the question of using cast data with jacketed bullets for light loads. Any comment? Thanks to everyone for their responses.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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