Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Professional dog trainer - Worth it?

Hi all,

Many of you know that I recently got a Nova Scotia Duck Toller with the intention of him being a gun dog and family pet. We have had him since Christmas and he is coming along pretty good, but it is also obvious that I haven't had a dog in 20 years. I am considering sending him to a "local" (3 hr drive each way) hunting dog trainer that seems highly rated in order to get the kind of hunting companion I want. The trainer says 1 month for obedience training and at least 2 for hunting training. He raises pheasants and chukars as well, so the dog would get exposure to live birds and shooting.

Having never done this before (an it not being cheap) I am wondering if it is worth it? Any issues with the dog becoming detached from the family? Our pup will be 5.5 months at the time training would start.

Any info/opinions would be appreciated.

SS

Been biting my tongue on this one but here goes....Im not from the gun dog arena and I know things are done differently there...but as complicated as a skill set can be for a good gun dog I'm not a fan of having someone else train a dog and drop it off.......especially a toller...they have Border Collie bred into them generations ago and are capable of a great deal.
I personally would do my homework as fast as I could and train the dog myself.5 months is getting pretty old to start training.
One month for obedience and two months min. for hunt training......I could teach the dog to do your taxes in that amount of time.....
If you can train him yourself you become a 'team'....and stay that way without any transfer issues between trainer and handler.

Sorry, I know thats probably not the answer you were looking for, but like everyone else I have an opinion, and that was it.


FWIW in my area of dog training we have an old adage... " The only thing you can get two trainers to agree upon is what a third trainer is doing wrong..."

I see this as the OP having difficulty teaching the dog the basic commands. For that I feel investing the time and money in a decent trainer is money well spent. The difference between me and the consulted trainer is that the basics can be taught at home with the help of a local dog trainer.

Look in the community Ed pages, the Yellow Pages (or the online equivalent if you aren't a dinosaur like me), the local bulletin boards, or word of mouth for someone teaching basic obedience classes. These usually occur one night a week and their greatest benefit is not only teaching your dog what you want it to do but also teaching YOU what you need to know and do.

Sending the dog off for training without you getting trained will soon have your dog back to whatever point it left you and worse yet, it will have learned you are not the master of the pack and therefore it do not have to be listened to. Then you are in worse shape than before.

Spend the money on basic training for you and the dog and you will be miles ahead. Once you have reached that point, the task of training the dog will be less daunting as you will have a base to start from and some success to build confidence. From that point you can do the training yourself with just a little help. For that you could go a couple of ways.

First, you could send the dog to the trainer for training. Depending on what is meant by "trained" two months could be reasonable. Your dog will not refuse to bond with you, it takes more than a couple months for the pup to "forget" you. For proof, look at police and service dogs. They spend the first several months or even year in a foster home, go to a trainer, then get paired up with their handler for additional training. After that they are pretty dang loyal to their current handler- if you don't believe that, punch a K9 handler in front of their dog!

The negative is the dog will come back knowing what it needs to do but you would still be clueless as to what you need to do in keeping the dog's skills sharp. Soon, what you spent on training will be lost and you will be back to where you started- if lucky.

Secondly, you could see if you could have weekly or bi-weekly training sessions with your picked trainer. I know several trainers and they all offer such "classes" as it is a form of advertising if nothing else. The advantage of this is you would also be getting trained which will allow you to maintain your dog's level of training. This is my #2 recommendation due to time and cost based on the distance you describe.

My number one recommendation is to join a training group for the type of hunting you plan to do. I don't know of a group dedicated to the actual training of tolling but there are many that can help with retrieving and even upland flushing. It would probably be more than one group in the latter case but you should find at least one group of each closer than 3 hours to you. The advantage of these groups are in having more than one to help you with your dog and you will learn from others as you help them. Many of the members will be very knowledgable handlers and will be able to help you as well as a "pro" trainer. Being able to participate as an observer or helper rather than the handler allows one a different perspective and one can better concentrate on what is being done and how as there is less personal pressure to perform. Many times having more than two hands and one body available makes a much smoother and productive training session possible.

Another advantage besides seeing how others train is that you will typically be able to borrow or rent some equipment which will be helpful but rather expensive for one dog. Bird/dummy launchers is one part but even just plain old bumpers can get expensive when starting from scratch. Learning where one can economize is always a welcome part of dog training.

The only negative I can see in joining a club or clubs is it is addicting. Not only do you and your dog get an education but the socialization and commraderie is very rewarding. And that does not factor in tests and trials one often enters, even if only sometimes. This is also a real negative as some are geared more towards competition rather than "hunting" but one can still use their help to make a good hunting dog. By the time you realize this route is not for you, you and your dog will likely make a decent hunting team at the least.

You are at the point of starting the dog in its training. At the age the dog is, it should already have its basic commands down but there is still time as many "puppy" obedience classes request a pup to be at least 6 months old to start. In the "old days" a dog was often not started on formal training until a year old but techniques were often very heavy handed and a dog needed to be fairly well along in their mental maturity. Starting early usually means less "force" in the battle of wills that comes as the pup matures. If nothing else, the bites don't hurt as much...😀

^^^^^^^^^^^


THIS...is all excellent advice!

I pity the next guy who responds as we point out all the ways he is wrong!😀

Thanks for the input guys. To be clear, the pup has been crate trained, knows how to sit, lay down, and stay. Come is a bit hit and miss still. What I'm really looking for is someone who knows what they are doing to lay the foundation for hunting with him. I understand that it won't be flipping a switch. He will need maintenance and I will need to learn how to handle him properly too.

You have given me some things to think about. Thanks.

SS

I know you guys are gonna flame me for this but to me getting someone else to train your dog is like asking someone to take you wife's virginity.

It is and should be a very intimate relationship and I want to be involved at all times.

+1 Everything Uglydog2 said.

I grew up training Golden Retrievers. My parents were very active in both the local club as well as the Golden Retriever Club of America. I spent my childhood throwing bumpers and being a bird boy as well as showing, training, and laying tracks.

When dealing with a novice as yourself, training dogs is 50% dog training and 50% people training. It's important for you to be involved.

One important note, while your trying to get this figured out, it's important for you to spend at least 10 minutes everyday with the dog on a lead working on basic obedience training now. If you do this now, you'll be way ahead of the game.

Go and watch a field trial sometime, so you can see what goes on too.

Im certainly not gonna flame you for that!

And take note of the things you DON'T want somebody doing with your dog......




When i had my one and only bird dog ( a Brittany) I caught hell for the dog not "being steady to wing and shot" and for not having a E-Collar on it...


In the real world of hunting when I shoot a bird I want the dog as close to under it as he can get...personally.


And if you need an E-collar on a dog....you need a different dog and/or a different trainer.

When I was 15, this lady that was good friends of my parents and a member of the club, wanted to pay me to throw bumpers for her one summer. It was a great way for me make money as a 15 year old. She'd call me a couple of times every week to help her train.

The problem I had, was she was into force training. If her dogs acted up or weren't completing a task to meet her satisfaction, she'd beat the living schit out of them. I couldn't stand it.

She had a friend that had Labs. This lady had a dog that, when she'd send the dog, he'd jump up into the air, spin around, and bark, before it would take off. The dog was a great retriever, but kept getting disqualified or was just not scoring well in field trials because of it. So they had the bright idea of getting a cattle prod.

So here we are in the field, I get the signal to throw, the bird flies and hits the ground, she sends the dog and it did its thing. It was funny as schit the first time I saw it, until she zapped it with the cattle prod. The dog took off and wouldn't come back for a while. I don't blame him. Then they did it about 5 or 6 more times until she put him away because the dog was through with it.

The next day, she called me up to get me to train with her, and I told her I was busy. I got off of the phone and my father asked me what that was about and I told him. He went ballistic on me for turning down work and told me to call her back and go to work. So I did, but hated every minute of it.

The words "animal cruelty" comes to mind.

Yeah...Ive heard a large number of gun dog owners and trainers refer to "burning" the dog with the collar.

If you ever want to see how happy dogs with excellent discipline fetch stuff, tune in to some Schutzhund some time....

This is 9 minutes, but its fun to watch...got stuff besides fetching! Also note if you will none of the trainers/handlers ever even raise their voice...no need to.Particularly watch the skinny little blonde girl, she easily handles big hard dogs, and I've never seen anybody better at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-K2_CqVD-c

Hey Sam,

Best you can do, IMO, is to spend as much time as you can with that dog. Take it everywhere and always let it know how it's expected to behave.

This is easier said than done, I know. Most all of us work, and have obligations. The basic obedience stuff should take maybe a week. Sit, come, heel, down... Do this a few minutes 2wice a day for a week, and you will achieve good results.

You want to be this dogs best buddy, and the source of all that is good. Don't go overboard with punishment. A harsh word, and put the dog up if his antics get to be too much. This gets his attention and works him over better than a beating if you're his buddy.

If the dog has hunting instincts, it will be a breeze to get it hunting for you. Think through how to introduce the dog to water and to gun shots.

Swimming with kids on a hot day at the river...
Nose full of hot bird scent and lots of excitement and fun when you shoot the first blank pistol behind him.

Retrievers pick this stuff up easily, and you will gain from the experience...

That's cool stuff. The whole thing is much more enjoyable when you know the dog is having fun. It makes them much easier to train that way.

I'd like to train the little blonde girl to do some things for me too.

Yeah, she's a cutie and that level of self confidence is ALWAYS sexy!

Take the pup out of his comfort zone where there are distractions. Pups will focus on you more, and your voice. I trained my GSP and he was by far the best bird dog I've ever had.
I used a lot of the same techniques to train my coyote decoy dog, I actually used my GSP to teach him to chase the coyote down and bring them back. I never taught him to try and kill a coyote as that is my job.
Just as in bird hunting, killing the game is your job.
Basic commands are the building blocks to training. That's why you don't need distractions, especially your kids out there. He will want to play with them rather than train.
My GSP would retrieve at night, hold point, whoa broke, always retrieved to my left side, was "leave it" broke too., he was a great hunting dog. Make the training sessions short but productive.

Have fun, if you get frustrated, call it a day.

I totally agree. It is a tool for the lazy and mean spirited. I never used one and my lab was incredible. -tnscouter

Well, someone has to stand-in for the good trainers so it may as well be me. They are out there and have a place. Like the people in the video some-not all for sure-are specialists in what they do. The handlers in that video-if they are the ones who trained the Dogs-have skills that are out of the realm of most individuals when it comes to training. They know the tricks of how a Dogs mind gets it cues. They have brought those Dog to the head of the class. Most of us would fall short in the dedication to do so.

Anyway, is there a place for hunting Dog trainers? Of course. Now should it take a month for basic obedience? Nope. Should it take 2 to get the Dog up and hunting? Depends upon what you are looking for. With a flusher, definitely not. With a pointer probably. The one thing a trainer has the average Dog owner doesn't is Birds. A constant supply of Birds that he can use in a controlled manner to bring the Dog along.This is where the average hunter falls short for it takes Birds to make the Dog. Most certainly you will be ahead of the game if you can get the Dog into them before actual hunting season. Trainers have them, the rest of us mostly do not.

You could have Birds and if you worked your Dog everyday for 2 months it still would only be a novice when he/she hit the field and had to handle wild Birds. Trainers don't turn a pup into top class field Dogs in 2 months and neither will you.

There is also a place for the use of the E Collar used with some common sense. There is also the chance it just may save your Dogs life some day.

Anyway, waiting for all of mine shoots .5 all day crowd to chime in; it should be interesting.

^^^^^^


THIS is also all good advice.


On the E-collar I will back pedal, but only slightly. Properly used they are THE thing for aversion training.

By this I mean snake-breaking...and it should be done by someone other than the owner. It only takes a minute...literally.

Another use I saw for it was shaping a "straight" trailing bear hound. Don't want the dog chasing deer, elk etc......so the trainer/owner took him to smoking fresh elk tracks and turned him loose without saying a word. Dog of course hit it and took off on the track.
Again without saying a word ( thus to disassociate himself from the collar) he zapped the dog, and it stopped immediately, whereupon he ran up to it, sympathetic as he could be... " Did that old elk hurt you????" and the dog of course was all over him.. " Yeah Dad! it was awful!!!"


" I'll bet you don't want to do that again!!!"....." No Dad...it was terrible!"




But Battue was spot on when he noted the folks in the video had an insight into dogs that few have. We call it the "X" factor, cause you either have it or you don't. It can't be taught...especially as it pertains to the big, hard dogs.

And he was right about a proper trainer having birds on hand. It makes a HUGE difference.

This book or video is great, its basic and down to earth.

http://www.amazon.com/Game-Dog-Retriever-Waterfowl-Training/dp/0525939423

Training your own dog can be very rewarding, just remember its supposed to be fun for both of you.



Lots of birds help.

Just walked over to get a quick snack. The young fellow got a reinforcement of the hup and stay drill. Yesterday we thru the dummy for 5-8 throws, we heard the whistle to stop. We saw the raised hand to do the same. Someone got too far out-he was pushed too far, but didn't know it-and he heard the recall buzzer on the E-Collar and his mind said opps, or damnit. Or he did know it and said that CS, I don't know which.

Except for one Robin, who he kicked out of the yard and a couple Crows that mocked him up in the trees, that was the extent of the Birds we got into. Not enough.

I'm trying my hand at training a pointing dog for the first time. Though I've not considered sending him to a trainer as I'm just too cheap, I appreciate the insight/info posted in this thread. I know my biggest problem is being too gruff with Hank. I need to work on easing up on my body language and voice. It's not much of a problem in 'training' as I'm conscience of it, but house messes and regular troubles I let my frustration show too much.

Again, thanks for the info and I hope to glean some more.

Watch the video posted above, and again notice, no one raises their voice with the dogs. Its not necessary.


As frustration builds so it seems does voice volume. What i always tell my students when you catch yourself doing this, stop, change your body language and whisper your request to the dog.


You will often be amazed...

You will have more success, and fun doing 15 "training" sessions two or three times per day than one, one hour session.

And some days you will be "off" and some days your dog will act like you two are strangers, on these days, just go fishing it will be far less frustrating for the both of you.

^^^^^^^^^^^



Sage Wisdom




And the training "sessions" can and should be 2-3 minutes. Literally.

And as frustrating as some days are, there will be more and more days that will truly amaze you, at just how much dogs are capable of learning.

Once they "get it" they become obsessed with doing what pleases you.
That's when you two start thinking as one, and the fun starts.

I even taught my dog to schit on command.

....and don't be too hard on them. For the most part they are giving you all they have and then some.

Pointers are immensely harder than flushers to guide them correctly. The flushers, especially the English Springers and English Cockers are easy in comparison. However, they are the jokers of the hunting breeds and why I have thrown my coat in with theirs.

I will also have to put in my two cents in favor of sending a dog to a trainer. Some people are poor teachers, whether for dogs or people but they are capable of maintaining a level of skill in the pupil. It makes absolutely no sense for them to teach another creature so sending the dog off to be trained and then taking over afterward is the only way they can have a well trained dog. My former vet is such a person, she can do basic obedience but the rest is beyond her.

Another reason to send a dog to a pro is when the owner hits a snag or a plateau they cannot overcome. This may be due to a lack of experience, knowledge, perception, or observation but it is still something that may need a pro to get past.

A second type who would need the services of a trainer is the one who has limited or no access to training grounds or birds. As mentioned, one needs birds to train a gun dog and this can be very difficult for those living in urban or suburban areas. Couple that with a lack of land on which to train and sending a dog to a trainer may be the only means of getting a good working dog.

And this does not include the cost and space needed to keep birds. I have about $250 into my pigeon pen and much of that was built with scrap lumber and leftovers from other places. The pigeons were "free" as I caught them myself but food is still about $1 a week for a dozen birds plus electricity in the winter to keep the water dish open.

The quail pen is roughly half the price for one large enough for a half dozen birds but the birds run $5 rack. Food is cheaper at about 50 cents a day. I average three dozen a summer due to losses which can be pricey to some.

Pheasants run $6 each for worn out breeding hens and I do a couple dozen of them in a summer. Roosters or hens not past their prime are half to double that price. Ducks are $2.75 apiece as chicks and will average $1 a week over their life for food as will pheasants. The pen for the ducks and pheasants is also costly as it needs to be relatively large and fairly sturdy to keep out predators. The netting to put over the top is probably the most expensive part of the whole pen.

The cost and space needed can be daunting for many. The price to keep birds could go down for more birds but this is all the more birds I need for my purposes. I moved from in town to some acreage for the sole reason to have room for birds. I could find land to run on but keeping birds was frowned on by the city fathers. I moved before they got around to ticketing me.

Then there are the people who have great demands on their time, whether work or family. 10-15 minutes a couple times a day is fine for obedience but setting up even a very basic field exercise will take up what is has been recommended and only get longer for more involved scenarios. I train on my own property and the initial set up of two traps will take closer to an hour from grabbing the first one to putting away the last including catching the birds from the pen. And that is for only a single run, add on about half hour for a second run. This can be difficult to do for many as this is not a once and done proposition.

Though I have acreage, I lack a place for water work. I have to pack up the dogs and equipment and travel 4 miles to get to a place I can do some basic retrieves. And that is providing it is not being used by others for fishing or picnicking or that others don't show up. For more involved work I make a day of it at a buddy's place (he makes his living training dogs) or lease a place if I have a deadline to meet. The former is 70 miles one way, the other runs $25 for three hours.

I much prefer working my own dogs but also recognize it can be a difficult task for many. One can get just so far working in their yard- eventually one needs to get into the field under controlled conditions to go to the next levels. For those who do not have the time or access to get to these levels a pro trainer may be needed.

Oh, as fore collars, I am a huge fan of them. They are an immense help for corrections at a distance and are the best tool to break a dog from unwanted behavior.

The term "burning" was in vogue 40 years ago when I first began use of an ecollar as that is what collars did. One level of shock-high- on continuous was all that was available. It's been close to 30 years since I've heard the term "burn" used in this context as technology, knowledge, and understanding has progressed since those early days.

Of course, they can be used incorrectly and cause harm but that is no different than with any other tool used for training including one's voice. Knowing the correct use of a tool is the key to getting the desired results whether it is a saw, wrench, or ecollar.

Which tells me you don't know schit about bird dogs! I can tell you the top Brittanys in the country don't get put on the ground without their e-collars and garmins, with the exception of trials, where e-collars aren't allowed. My Brittanys don't break at the shot for a reason, and they don't get put on the ground without their e-collars and Garmins (with the exception of trials).

Good Pros are worth their weight in gold, especially if you send your dog to one of their summer camps. A dog will most likely see more wild birds at one summer camp then they will their entire life as a hunting dog.

Did you miss the part about the one and ONLY bird dog Ive owned?

But dogs are pretty much dogs, difference being the gun dogs are probably more eager to please than their more self-centered shepherding counterparts....which makes them more receptive to inducive rather than compulsive training.



And no, I haven't hung out with the field trial gun dog training crowd....



Because...Field Trials to me don't reflect field conditions..


and I want nothing to do with people who wont put a dog on the ground without an E-collar.


I shied away from people who train compulsively years ago and have stayed away.I work with big, hard, strong willed dogs on occasion and have managed to do it without ever even wanting an E-Collar.


Your Mileage obviously varies.



I was wondering how long this would take.....

How is it that trials don't mimick field conditions? The only people I've ever heard say that are people who have never been to a trial.

Field trial dogs are as far from hunting, family friendly and a child's pets as dogs can possibly be.

"Running big" "remote controlled" "high energy dogs" are not what all bird hunters want or need.

E collars are mandatory when your dog is hunting in another zip code than the one you are in. We call them picture dogs, you know, the ones that you keep pictures of in your truck, so you can show every one you see what the dog your are searching for looks like.

If your dog is out side of whistle range then he is not hunting with or for you.

Field trials are both entertaining and borderline animal abuse, and I see very little connection to actually training a bird dog and training a field trail dog.

To each their own, but lets not confuse the two.

Another post from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you want a good hunting dog you need a good place to run/train your dog with lots of birds. You can do obedience training in your yard but field work is where a dog is made. If you can't provide this then you may want to carefully consider a professional.

My spots for training now have houses and apartments on them which is one reason I no longer have a dog.

The whole world ain't Kansas there ToTo!

Tracking collars, on a Britney really? GSP's of course, mostly a necessity just because of field trial breeding programs. A good GSP's can smell a humming bird fart at half a mile in a 30 mph cross wind, but very few hunters have any where the time, property or know with all to ever make a hunting dog out of one. They are very photogenic though.

For Up land bird hunting, and water fowling there is no place for high energy, big running dogs, there's a stark difference in the two, and the training required for either to be good at what they do.

The fastest way to turn Joe Sixpack into an avid golfer, is to have him and a couple buddies go bird hunting with his 2.5 year old super field trail trained gun dog.

Again, You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what your talking about. This year my "trial" dog ran off horse the last day of AA Nationals on Saturday. On Sunday we were killing wild pheasants and quail over her in NE off foot, and by Tuesday she was laying in my 2 1/2 year olds lap watching cartoons on the couch, after she slept in bed with my wife and I. Off horse she will crest the horizon going away at 500+ yards. Off foot she probably won't hit 200, unless your in the prairies. I always get a kick out of people saying trial dogs and hunting dogs are so much different. Ive hunted over a ton of trial dogs, and couldn't tell any difference between them and the pure hunting dogs off foot. Of course, the dogs I hunted over were all trained the exact same way. The only people I ever heard say that trial dogs are wild and crazy in the field, are the ones who have never actually hunted over a trial dog. Everyone who has hunted over both realize trial dogs learn the game.

As far as sending a dog off with a trainer, its worth its weight in gold. Training a trial dog is really no different than training a hunting dog. If you can get a dog out to summer camp, they will most likely see more birds in one summer than most dogs will see in a lifetime.

I can say this much, I have no need to carry a solar power generator on my back to keep control or sight of my dogs, 200 yards is bit out of range for my 20 gauge O/U, we try to say in the same woods as our dogs are hunting in.

Once again To each their own.

Funny. My 20ga O/U seems to kill those birds pointed at 200 yards just fine!

I got drawn for a quail quota hunt in GA this year. The plantation I got drawn for is also a plantation we trial. I hunted the plantation exactly how I trial it. At the end of the day, or group moved twice as many coveys, and killed more birds, than any of the other 8 groups that were hunting that day. I couldn't see my dog much of the time. But I didn't need to. I knew she would stay with us and show herself now and then. Thank god I had he GPS, because we would had never found her on point most of the time. The birds were buried in that day, and without a GPS, we would have never seen her on point. I'll take the bigger running dog that handles all day over the boot polisher that makes 30 yard casts. I'll also shoot a lot more birds!

Sure am glad we have somebody here that DOES know what he's talking about!


Actually I have been to field trials and Ive even hunted over field trial dogs...who, as you alluded to, made the transition between field trial and real field very smoothly. Also seen them good in the house with family/kids etc.


But any time you wan't to discuss training methodologies , get an undergraduate and a post graduate degree in Canine Developmental Science and we can discuss the neurological implications of inducive vs. compulsive training, and the timing and application of positive and negative reinforcement, and positive and negative punishment. If we are to discuss methodologies, I would like the playing field to be level.

If you can tell me how to turn a dog at 200-300 yards that's giving you the middle law while heading towards a dirt road with joe the farmer driving down it at 100mph, like you see in SD all the time, without an e-collar, I'm all ears!

well....you have have a point there!

Those of us that hunt with boot polishers simply call their name.

That is a tough one, the police dogs we train to get after a suspect must on occasion be called off before they make contact....its a liability thing if they bite the wrong guy...


They are HIGHLY motivated to the bite, and extremely hard to stop....just like a bird dog thats free lancing and feels he is out of your range of control.

Getting the K9 to stop on command is one of the most difficult parts of the training, but obviously it can be done and personally I find it best to start with building the obedience it takes at about 8 weeks.


I did it with my one and only bird dog....a long time ago when I was just learning, and my results were what could best be called "mixed"

There are your run of the mill Bird Dogs, which is what most of us are used to. Then there are good Birds Dogs and then there are great ones that are so hot you will burn your hand when you stroke their neck.

Most anyone can handle the first, a few the second and damn few the third. The third will take you breath away when they are on. Nor where the third born to dick around within shotgun distance.

Different posters are throwing all three into the same grouping which is a disservice to each.

E collars have their place used properly,and for the most part are an improvement compared to some of the things that went on prior.

I always do!! ;-). When I'm hunting I like the idea of always knowing where my dog is no matter what, and always having control if I need it. It makes the hunt a lot less stressful for me. However, in a trial the rush of watching your dog head over a hill at 500+ yards, and not knowing if you will see it again under judgement, is a huge rush as well. It's what makes trialing so much fun to me. Especially when you ride over the hill and find your dog standing with a limb find, and you know the judges are impressed. Obviously the level of steadiness that's best could be argued over while drinking beer, and we could drink all the beer in the country and we still not agree. I send my dog with a Pro because he can provide something I can't, which is thousands of wild birds every year. With that said, people send their dogs to Pros and expect magic. If you don't work with the Pro as well to learn how and when to correct the dog, then your just pissing money away.

Gary Lester has been interviewed and he talks about foot hunting every one of his All Age dogs. Too many people think dogs can't do both, and do it well. The dogs learn the game, they just have to be given the chance. One of the questions I asked my trainer before I commited to sending my dog to him was if he could foot hunt over his All Age dogs. His response was "every single one of them". All the trial dogs I've hunted over cut their speed in half, and their distance by more than that, when your not on a horse. Break out a horse and they all become totally different dogs.

No doubt, and you can-with training-bring a big running hot one in and a smart one will learn to pace itself. They know when they are on the line along with a competitor lunging right beside them.

Still the super hot field trial Dog is another animal vs a good walk behind gun Dog.

The horse is what we call a "trigger"...its presence tells the dogs the parameters of the game have changed. You would ( or perhaps you wouldn't) be amazed by the number of owners/handlers/ trainers that don't notice things like that.....
A good handler or trainer does and makes them work to his advantage. Dogs are 'triggered' by scores of things, most of which are a lot smaller than a horse!
A K9 knows when he's pulled out to do scent work that if he's working on lead with his collar, he's looking for dope, if he's had his harness put on, he's looking for a suspect...every gun dog Ive ever known cranks up when he sees a shotgun.......

Oodles of examples of this, but most don't notice them....

And I was just happy to have my 5mo old pup not run off and to bring a few bumpers back to me yesterday on a walk in the field...

That is a tough one and it is not always successful in the field. My stepson is a K9 handler and he has had 3 "mistake" bites with his dogs that I know of. A coworker is currently being sued for a dog that not only did not recall immediately upon turning on a bystander but also did not release immediately and needed its jaws pried off the person's arm. And both dogs and handlers have more than one national award for dog handling. In a similar vein, I have acted as the bite dummy on many occasions for several agencies and have seen this happen numerous times in training, demos, and tests. A dog is not foolproof in its willingness to do as commanded each and every time, it is something one needs to be aware of when handling a dog and how to best deal with such an instance is up to the handler/trainer.

I'm not going to comment whether an ecollar would have been a good choice or not (and I can see where it could be a benefit and where it would be a negative) but with a hunting dog, having a means of enforcing a command at a distance is often a saver of grief. Whether running towards a road with traffic, chasing unwanted game, or plain disobedience for a variety of factors, having the means to reach out and enforce a command at the moment can be very helpful. I would rather enforce the command at the instant rather than wait until the animal realizes to obey and then reinforce the desired command.

In my observance, there are different needs and results needed with a hunting dog and a service dog. The methods and results are often the same but the means of getting there are not necessarily so. Not many these days wish to or can spend 2-3 years getting their hunting dog into field shape though it is common and needed for this in service dogs. There are greater demands placed on the service dog which are not necessary with hunting dogs which require more time and often a different approach to achieve. There is a difference between the two types and there can be a lot to learn from both.

I'm there with you pointer. Did the same thing on Sunday. Some Canada Geese flew overhead while we were out and he was completely keyed in on them, which was pretty exciting.

I didn't know this thread would become so heated when I posted it. Lesson learned I guess. Thanks to all of you that provided information. We have decided that three months with a professional trainer won't hurt either the dog or us (aside from in the wallet I suppose) and in the long run it should help provide us with the dog we want.

SS

Dog trials are just like real hunting. Except for planted, pen raised birds.

Most, but not all.

There are Ruffed Grouse, Woodcock and Quail Championships which are ran on all wild Birds.

Wanna bet? While many trials do have planted birds, many do not. The cover dog trials are all wild birds trials, as are all of the chicken and sharptail championships run in the praries. So are many of the trials in the South. While many of the weekend trials run on planted hirds, many of the championships are wild bird trials. Again, another quote from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

So, most dog trials are run on wild birds? Or just a very small percentage?

Trial dogs make great hunting dogs, unfortunately most of the trial folks I have met are self-important douchebags.

It is where dogs are owned by horse show people.

Sam,

Dog training is much like raising kids, there are a number of different paths one can take and, if successful, is one which the user will believe in. The trick is to realize there is no single "best" way for all dogs ( or kids) and it pays to learn as much and as widely as possible. In this way one can change and adopt to what the pupil needs to bring out the desired results.

There is no one way to accomplish this as there are many different needs and even in a single subject such as hunting, there are marked differences between classes such as pointing dogs and retrievers. One is best served to keep an open mind and study other methods and techniques as it is likely one will find something useful and easier for you and your pupil to understand. It's why there are many training books for both dogs and kids.

I have only seen 1 horse show person in all of the trials I have gone to.

Depends on the venue.... Cover dog trials, I believe, are all wild bird trials. All of the Championships run in the Praries on chickens and sharptail are wild bird trials. Weekend 30 minute trials tend to be run on throw down birds. So it really depends on the venue you are competing in. NSTRA for instance, is run on pen raised birds. But many people don't consider NSTRA real trials either.

I have only seen 1 show horse person at a trial ever.

Have gone to a few trials and will go to others. However I could never get into them, mainly because the judging is often extremely subjective and the best Dog doesn't always win because of it.

That being said the vast majority of participants are fine individuals. Douchbags are everywhere and easy to ignore where ever you find them.

True that^^^^^^^^

Mine seem to be triggered by their food dishes...which are no where near the size of a horse....

I would suggest the book Gun Dog by Richard Wolters it is so common sense it will be the best 15 bucks youve spent it a long time. DK

Not to start a complete pissing contest, but please, NO! Wolters was not a dog trainer! This subject has been hashed out numerous times. Choose a book by George Hickox, Dave Walker, Delmar Smith, Rick or Ronnie Smith, or even the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish videos, pick any of them, but DONT use the Wolters book.

As a Toller owner I can tell you to do it yourself.

They are wicked smart, just get bored easily, so make the training sessions short and fun.

My first Toller (Maggie) was a great retriever on duck, pheasant, chuckar and quail.

All the Tollers I have seen are soft, and a heavy had with set you back weeks. Make it fun, positive and short and both you and the pup will have a great time.

Never hunted around a Toller, but guessing they are a flushing/retriever type Dog.

If you are going to spend the money and time, then I would be looking at a flushing Dog trainer, think English Springers vs one who specializes in pointers. Same thing with books and videos, concentrate on those that work with the flushers/retrievers.

Google "Total Retriever Training" by Mike Lardy. I used his program on 7 labs. Richard Wolters never trained a dog, Jack Jagoda trained Richards labs.

Doc

Doc

The first thing I learned when I took my GSP to basic obedience was he wasn't the one who needed the training.

The first thing I learned when we started hunting is he's a lot better at finding stuff than I am at hitting it.

a good retriever trainer is worth his weight in gold. having self trained and had pro trained dogs I'm not ashamed to say the pro trained dogs were better performers than the ones i trained myself.
Here's where i saw the most difference-when i duck hunt my dog is a tool I use to recover game. once a bird is down i send my dog and then go back to hunting, i don't sit and stare at him ooh'ing and ahh'ing. i send him and expect him to do his job while i keep calling for myself and guests.
My pro trained dogs did just that-they performed like workers and did everything adequately. my self trained dogs needed my attention more in order to accomplish the same task. Not having the resources available that a pro has for training cannot be overemphasized.

The downside i have found is that all trainers (retriever trainers) seem to be used to labradors. when you hit them with a non-traditional breed that may require a different style of training they seem to get lost. i have seen it when getting a chesapeake trained and also with my current Boykin. I would think you'll run into the same with a Duck Toller unless you find someone with Toller experience.

I do not want to hunt with my dogs if I don't train them. It is a partnership and I take pride in teaching them and learning from them. The dogs I have trained may not be great or perfect, but I never had anyone hunt with me that wasn't eager for me to have my dogs along the next time.

To me asking a pro to train your dog is like asking someone else to rear your children. Educate yourself, take a seminar, read, talk with others who own and hunt with your breed and take the dog hunting more than you can afford. Dogs, like children, are pretty forgiving of the mistakes we make raising and training them. At the end of the day you can claim all the credit for how your dog turned out...even if most of it belongs to the dog.

Perry

I just tuned in to this thread.
Wow.....
From my experiences, there's some truth, and quite a bit of bullshjt going on here.
First, as you old members here, know I bought a started dog , with the basics done already, and know through my thread, that Trap and I are now running master and finished levels in hunt tests.
Is he totally self trained, nope. Did I take him to the top levels, yep.
Field trials , a hunting dog does NOT make.
I hunted with a dog that passes master tests easily, and gets invites to the master nationals every year.
It's a pos hunting dog. It's a robot.
The owner can brag all he wants about his ribbons, but the dog hasn't a clue how to be a duck and goose dog.
Heck, the dog wouldn't even pick a goose up.

Do I know what I'm doing ?
Nope...
Do I try ?
Yep.
Is Trap perfect ?
Nope.
Does Trap retrieve most everything that falls from the sky or even shot ?
Yep.
Is he my best friend, and we spend 24/7 together ?
Yep.
Does he learn what is expected of him with this much togetherness ?
Yep.
Did he get some discipline with an e collar when he didn't do what he knew to do ?
Yep.
Did it hurt him ?
Nope.
Did he learn there is a consequence for not doing what he was told to do, and refused ?
Yep.
Does he wear an e collar now ?
Nope.
I can see a pro Trainer doing basics and up to whatever you pay for, but, to bond, it takes being together and becoming a team.
The dog also needs real life experiences. It can have all the training in a controlled environment it can stand, but won't have common knwledge, so to speak, of what it takes to be a real hunting companion.

Shameless brag.

So are you saying ribbons are important, or not important?

No.
It just shows a dogs capability to be trained.
The balance is a hunting dog that is under control, can be sent on blind retrieves, and you don't have to throw rocks for them to retrieve downed birds.
Training is one side, in the field experience is the other. Combined, is a great companion.

Which ever way you go, keeping your Dog in shape to hunt should be a priority; it doesn't happen with a daily walk around the block.

There's a big difference between retrievers and pointers when it comes to the hunting/trial world. Pointing dog trials are much less controlled, especially in wild bird trials. In the pointing dog world, the birds do much of the training, and that's why sending your dog off to a Pro can be such a huge advantage. Wild birds make a bird dog in the pointer world. Since most of use can't spend several months each year in the praries chasing wild birds, the only other option is sending your dog with s pro.

Many don't understand the difference between average, good and better than good. Saturday some of us had a fun day with the Dogs and shot some planted Chukars. Toby had flushed one out and it was shot. We were finished and perhaps 30minutes later a friend who is serious about his Dogs came around with one of his pointers. We were standing around BS'ing and someone looked back. Around 20yards away from where the Bird was flushed, the Dog was locked up solid while none of were paying attention. He had to practically drag him away. That Dog wasn't about to bust what he thought was a valid contact. He trains his own Dogs, but a good Dog combined with smart constant training is why it played out the way it did.

I wouldn't consider the above senerio good bird work, especially on planted birds. But it could be been used as a good training situation.

Tell me why.

Because it's a non productive. I don't want a dog pointing birds that aren't there. In a trial, you might get two NP's and then your out. When hunting, I don't want to walk to a dog that's on point only to find there's no bird there. Dogs need to know how to check the scent. What the guy should have done was relocate the dog and allow it to work the scent to figure out it was pointing old scent..... If the dog had hit the brakes at the first sign of scent, and then worked the scent to realize it was old, then moved on, that would have been good bird work.

That's where sending your dog to a Pro, that can put your dog into hundreds to thousands of wild birds, really pays off. The only thing that can train that kind of thing is lots of bird contacts. If your buddy pulled his dog off, the dog didn't learn anything, and he missed the opportunity of a good training scenario.

I can see your point.

This Dog has placed in some of the better trials and handled by him. Hasn't won yet, but good chance he may.

I'm guessing he's a younger dog?

Can't imagine a dog like helping put a lot of wild pheasants in the bag but I could be wrong.

Like what?

Not sure on the age.


Wild Pheasants are not the easiest for any Pointing Dog when they get to running. In addition, his training wasn't directed towards him being a Wild Pheasant Dog. However, I've hunted Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock over him and he is better than most. In fact a lot better.

I'll take a hard flusher anyday when wild Pheasants are on tap.

Depends on the cover. In milo and corn that haven't been knocked down, I'll take a good cocker or springer any day. In cover without rows for the birds to sprint down, you will put more birds in the bag with a pointer that ranges more. Here's a video of a 15 month old Brittany near the end of its first summer at camp in SD. This is a hell of a pheasant dog. You could have limited over her on this bird work alone.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6eNwQaT7xnU

All of it depends on the Dog and how good they are. A good Springer that has learned to take air scent would have put the same Birds in the air the Brit did in the video. And did it with a lot more spirit.

Addition: and I would have a lot more fun watching him do it. Limit one no limit.

I'll disagree, and I've been fortunate enough to hunt over some of the best springers in the country. I love them both, but each has their place.... The dog in the video was only 15 months old remember, and just learning how to handle pheasants. With flushing dogs you want "spirit", with pointing dogs you want calm composure with style! I've seen springers push running birds too much and put them in the air out of gun range more than I care to say.

We disagree again. Not a Pointer person myself, but given a choice I prefer to hunt over those that slam into their points. Although the best Ruffed Grouse Dog I ever hunted over was a cautious setter that gently covered her ground. She often smelled Birds at 40 yards if the wind was right. Then it was a step at a time into them until she knew one more would be one too many.

Slamming into points won't put many pheasants in the bag for a pointer, the pheasants will just walk out from underneath the point. That's another reason sending a dog to a pro can be so beneficial. The dog in the above video had learned how to track and pin running pheasants, and to take its time. You can hear in the video the trainer say "this is three year old stuff". That dog has now had 100's of pheasants killed over it.

Here's another video. You can see that as soon as the guy got anywhere close to the dog the bird flushed wild, but within gun range. The dog had been standing with the bird pinned for 5 over minutes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZt-kI8nWBI

Here's another video of another Brittany showing that pointing dogs can handle wild pheasants even in thin cover. You can see the first bird sprint out the back of the field, but the others held for the point until the handlers got close enough to shoot. The only way a dog can learn to work birds like this is to put the dog on huge amounts of wild birds.... Btw, both the dogs in the videos are dogs that have placed at Nationals, or finished in the top 5 overall in the country, and have both won tons of trials, including Placing in the ABC pheasant championship multiple times.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5qOxy-1IKQ

Those Pheasants were not running, they were just walking around and a good Springer would have put them in the air also. We like a different type of Dog and that is ok. Limit or not, I would find little joy in hunting over that particular Brit.

Out were there are a lot of Pheasants, killing 100 over a young Dog is not all that much of a challenge if you hunt him/her a lot.