|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,246 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,246 Likes: 11 |
I rarely have anything productive to say, and this is no exception, but here is the mule deer I killed via vanilla .223 Rem this year. While he took two shots, the cartridge had zero influence on that. The first shot was an anomaly and either hit a branch first or the bullet failed to expand. At the second shot, he instantly folded and fell to the ground. It was as quick as any big game kill I have ever seen, with any round.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,720 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,720 Likes: 2 |
Ive seen some hit in the shoulder by kids with the 223 sp that went well over a 100 yds. One hit too far back getting the back of the liver went a quarter mile and was only found because of my gsp.
Man, i hate trying to trail up deer after dark when there is no exit hole and thus no good blood trail.
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,246 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,246 Likes: 11 |
To be even more useless, here is an antelope I took at 550+ yards this year with the same .223 Rem. He stumbled 5-10 feet with a hole in his lungs before falling. While I am a it, here's a doe I killed the same day with the same rifle. I think she made it about 50 yards with one shoulder broke and her lungs ventilated. Here's another doe I took this year with my .223, which ran a good 300 yards with her lungs completely blown to hell. There were chunks of lung all over the sage, and after finishing her off, I realized literally half her vitals were missing. I rarely see this much damage, even when shot with a MUCH bigger round and frangible bullet. This all just goes to show that 22 CFs are no less effective than other rounds...sometimes they go down instantly, sometimes they make a short death run, regardless if you punch lungs or break shoulders. Very occasionally you'll have one run a ways, regardless of how much damage your bullet/round does. To the OP: you'll be just fine with whatever choice you go with. Please avoid FMJs though. That 60 partition is a ruthless killer, if you can actually hit something with it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,417 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,417 Likes: 2 |
The 223 and 22-50 are both awesome for deer, antelope, hogs dogs rams and lambs. But terrible choices for big game hunting.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
3-7-77
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
I have killed deer with the following cartridges....22LR, 223, 243, 6.5X55, 6.8SPC, 270, 270WSM, 7X57, 7-08, 308, 303 British, 35 Rem, 20 guage slug, and 50 caliber muzzleloader, along with a few I have probably forgotten. Probably half of those deer, and I have hunted for over 50 years and quit counting a long time ago, were killed with the 270 and a 130 grain bullet. I have shot them at 15 yards, all the way out to 450. Of all the cartridges I've used, I consider the 270 to the best.....period. I have had shoulder problems for several years now, and shoot a 243 more than anything else these days.
Having said all that, I could care less what someone shoots, although I do believe one should use some common sense about it. just because a certain cartridge will kill a deer, or an elk, or a bear, or whatever, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice for the job. Jack O'Connor told the story of an Indian who killed a grizzly with a 22LR, and an account of an elephant being killed with one. Does that qualify the 22LR as a good choice for a grizzly, or an elephant? Of course not. Which brings us back to the OP about the 223 and 22-250 for big game hunting. If that's all I had to use, then I'd do it and do the best I could. But....that does not mean they are "good" choices, because there are far better cartridges available, and those are the ones I would use. What you would use, is your choice and your right.
What bullet/bullets in that 243 and 270?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,688
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,688 |
To be even less useless, here is an antelope I took at 550+ yards this year with the same .223 Rem. He stumbled 5-10 feet with a hole in his lungs before falling. While I am a it, here's a doe I killed the same day with the same rifle. I think she made it about 50 yards with one shoulder broke and her lungs ventilated. Here's another doe I took this year with my .223, which ran a good 300 yards with her lungs completely blown to hell. There were chunks of lung all over the sage, and after finishing her off, I realized literally half her vitals were missing. I rarely see this much damage, even when shot with a MUCH bigger round and frangible bullet. This all just goes to show that 22 CFs are no less effective than other rounds...sometimes they go down instantly, sometimes they make a short death run, regardless if you punch lungs or break shoulders. Very occasionally you'll have one run a ways, regardless of how much damage your bullet/round does. To the OP: you'll be just fine with whatever choice you go with. Please avoid FMJs though. That 60 partition is a ruthless killer, if you can actually hit something with it. T Inman, Ive been hunting now for 43 years. In those years Ive taken only 6 or 7 deer with a 223. While others on this forum have certainly killed truckloads more deer than I I still think the 70+ deer Ive put in the freezer was a big enouph sample for me to say the 223 worked as well as any of the other cartridges Ive used. The furthest I remember one running is about 50 yds with a lung shot. 😀 For a lot of years however I have mostly hunted with my 270 not because I think it kills deer any better but because I usually hunt deer and elk in the same day and I havent wanted to try the 223 on elk. This year I tried a reduced recoil load in the 270 for two grandkids deer hunting and had some mixed results. Next year I'll be getting out the 223 that in my opinion recoiled less but killed more effectively than the reduced recoil 270 load I tried this year. On that note that was my thinking when I started this thread. Its no surprise that many others have seen the same results as I have in my small sample of deer hunted with the 223 I am currently playing around with the little 6.5X55 swede and the old cartridge has impressed me so far 😀 Trystan
Last edited by Trystan; 12/18/16.
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,212
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,212 |
I have killed deer with the following cartridges....22LR, 223, 243, 6.5X55, 6.8SPC, 270, 270WSM, 7X57, 7-08, 308, 303 British, 35 Rem, 20 guage slug, and 50 caliber muzzleloader, along with a few I have probably forgotten. Probably half of those deer, and I have hunted for over 50 years and quit counting a long time ago, were killed with the 270 and a 130 grain bullet. I have shot them at 15 yards, all the way out to 450. Of all the cartridges I've used, I consider the 270 to the best.....period. I have had shoulder problems for several years now, and shoot a 243 more than anything else these days.
Having said all that, I could care less what someone shoots, although I do believe one should use some common sense about it. just because a certain cartridge will kill a deer, or an elk, or a bear, or whatever, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice for the job. Jack O'Connor told the story of an Indian who killed a grizzly with a 22LR, and an account of an elephant being killed with one. Does that qualify the 22LR as a good choice for a grizzly, or an elephant? Of course not. Which brings us back to the OP about the 223 and 22-250 for big game hunting. If that's all I had to use, then I'd do it and do the best I could. But....that does not mean they are "good" choices, because there are far better cartridges available, and those are the ones I would use. What you would use, is your choice and your right.
What bullet/bullets in that 243 and 270? 270....130 grain Sierra Game King, and 60 grains of H4831. Nothing on this planet will kill a deer any quicker, except maybe a lightning bolt, and that would be arguable. 243....I've used 85 grain Sierra HP's, 90 and 95 Nosler BT's, 95 grain Hornady SST's, 100 grain Core-Locts, and 100 grain Winchester Power Points.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
270....130 grain Sierra Game King, and 60 grains of H4831. Nothing on this planet will kill a deer any quicker, except maybe a lightning bolt, and that would be arguable. 243....I've used 85 grain Sierra HP's, 90 and 95 Nosler BT's, 95 grain Hornady SST's, 100 grain Core-Locts, and 100 grain Winchester Power Points.
There is no magic in bullets or how they kill. All else being equal with sufficient penetration, the wider the wound channel (the bigger the hole) the faster things die. There are cartridges and bullets out there that do considerably more damage and make considerably bigger holes then the 130gr .270 Game King- it's not even close. The Hornady 75gr A-MAX and the 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking are two .224 bullets that have a wider wound channel in deer sized animals than the 130gr SGK. All these are from the 77gr TMK. All penetrated between 18-20 inches and all went through "shoulders" coming and/or going. You think the cartridge that created these is "too small"? How far you figure these mule deer and whitetail went? Right at 2,600fps impact velocity. 2,750fps impact 2,300fps impact. 2,550fps impact. 2,650fps or so It isn't the 1960's anymore. Once John Nosler came out with the Partition and people started realizing how to engineer projectiles from the targets perspective, the world of "sensible" choices changed. Manufactures can and do create bullets for specific characteristics in tissue and it is no thang to get a 300gr .338 bullet that will come unglued and only penetrate 10in, or a 50gr .224 that will penetrate 30+ inches. Yes, it's possible to build a 27 caliber bullet that will create much more tissue damage than a 77gr .224 bullet. However I haven't met anyone that wants MORE damage than the above. So if a person can get as much or more damage than they want, more penetration than they need, less recoil, less cost, less blast, and more precision... Bullets, bullets, bullets.....
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,442 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,442 Likes: 1 |
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,167 Likes: 2
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,167 Likes: 2 |
Be gentle, as some of you may not like what I've killed most of my deer with..... Arrows.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,688
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,688 |
270....130 grain Sierra Game King, and 60 grains of H4831. Nothing on this planet will kill a deer any quicker, except maybe a lightning bolt, and that would be arguable. 243....I've used 85 grain Sierra HP's, 90 and 95 Nosler BT's, 95 grain Hornady SST's, 100 grain Core-Locts, and 100 grain Winchester Power Points.
There is no magic in bullets or how they kill. All else being equal with sufficient penetration, the wider the wound channel (the bigger the hole) the faster things die. There are cartridges and bullets out there that do considerably more damage and make considerably bigger holes then the 130gr .270 Game King- it's not even close. The Hornady 75gr A-MAX and the 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking are two .224 bullets that have a wider wound channel in deer sized animals than the 130gr SGK. All these are from the 77gr TMK. All penetrated between 18-20 inches and all went through "shoulders" coming and/or going. You think the cartridge that created these is "too small"? How far you figure these mule deer and whitetail went? Right at 2,600fps impact velocity. 2,750fps impact 2,300fps impact. 2,550fps impact. 2,650fps or so It isn't the 1960's anymore. Once John Nosler came out with the Partition and people started realizing how to engineer projectiles from the targets perspective, the world of "sensible" choices changed. Manufactures can and do create bullets for specific characteristics in tissue and it is no thang to get a 300gr .338 bullet that will come unglued and only penetrate 10in, or a 50gr .224 that will penetrate 30+ inches. Yes, it's possible to build a 27 caliber bullet that will create much more tissue damage than a 77gr .224 bullet. However I haven't met anyone that wants MORE damage than the above. So if a person can get as much or more damage than they want, more penetration than they need, less recoil, less cost, less blast, and more precision... Bullets, bullets, bullets..... It is true! 270 bullets bounce off 😀 Nice pictures Trystan
Good bullets properly placed always work, but not everyone knows what good bullets are, or can reliably place them in the field
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,833 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,833 Likes: 1 |
Holy crap, that carnage is as bad or worse than a 30-06 with a 150 grain ballistic tip.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,212
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 19,212 |
So, if I were to post some pictures of a deer that got squashed on the interstate by a semi hauling steel, does that mean that the deer is "deader" than one that get's hit by a Ford F-150. The amount of damage to the deer's carcass would certainly be greater, so I suppose it would be "deader" Right?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,720 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,720 Likes: 2 |
So MD, what do you usually use for hunting when you go for big mule deer or big elk, please?
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395 Likes: 2 |
Holy crap, that carnage is as bad or worse than a 30-06 with a 150 grain ballistic tip. Indeed. They are wicked little bullets. The 77gr TMK was engineered specifically for the purpose. Bucks get TMK's/A-MAX's, meat gets monos/bonded. So, if I were to post some pictures of a deer that got squashed on the interstate by a semi hauling steel, does that mean that the deer is "deader" than one that get's hit by a Ford F-150. The amount of damage to the deer's carcass would certainly be greater, so I suppose it would be "deader" Right? You said that 22 cal CF's were "too small" for deer. I would presume that "too small" would mean "doesn't do enough damage to be ethical" or something similar. Based on the picrures- is it too small?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286 |
That is a great deer and photo!
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,442 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,442 Likes: 1 |
The 222 Magnum was a cartridge that probably would have been better than the 223, in my opinion. Back in those days I had a 22-250 and saw little need for that cartridge. I remember shooting wood chucks with a friend who had the 222M. For longer range wood chucks the 6mm and the 22-250 were my choices.
But if the brass was as cheap as the 223, I'd be using it for pd's. For deer, I prefer something bigger.
I prefer classic. Semper Fi I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,774
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,774 |
I have probably shot 40-50 caribou with a 22-250 when I was teaching in Ambler. Most people still hunt with 223s. I grew up hunting with a 300 win mag but you do what locals do when you go to a new territory. I used a Remington 788 with a 3X9 Simmons scope and used a curtain rod adjuster for a sling. The first week I was teaching there three of my students came in with a 3 year old interior grizzly that probably weighed about 350lbs. Its head was filled with bullet holes. They were out caribou hunting with their 10/22s when it popped up on a swale about 25 yards away. They immediately opened fire because grizzlies made good soup. I counted 25 hits but from them the bear instantly tried to get away and they weren't going to let it get away.
A lot of people in more open country use smaller caliber rifles. I have bounced up and down on caliber size and tend to stay around 30 caliber. I will say that it is preferable for somebody to use a 22-250 very effectively then to gut shoot a game animal with a 338 Winchester that they can't shoot. The 243 is an exceptional cartridge for somebody just starting out. The 30-06 is also a wonderful cartridge for a starting hunter.
Sincerely, Thomas
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 43,901 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 43,901 Likes: 11 |
That is a great deer and photo! +1, nice buck T Inman!
|
|
|
|
527 members (260Remguy, 1OntarioJim, 260madman, 1minute, 257 roberts, 1badf350, 60 invisible),
2,366
guests, and
1,201
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,426
Posts18,489,172
Members73,970
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|