Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting LR Hunting - Why?

POP that 378 is simply stunning.All your bee's are pretty nice.Did ya find a good load for your 30-378?Nice to see the Made in the USA on the box.

Guys,

I apologise for starting a schitt-storm (couldn't resist the spelling on that one - bravo!), as that was not my intention at all. Alas, I am on business in Italy, so my opportunity to access the Net has been limited, hence the all-quiet. However, the debate is wonderful, allowing concepts to be developed and real-time experience to be shared. Thank you.

To establish some facts, I was not actually a sniper, merely an Army Officer (Captain in the Royal Engineers, commando and diver trained). I shot both pistol and service rifle internationally - no biggy really. However, during my training period, the last 30 years and still learning, I have come to fear one thing at distance, the wind. I'm no Sgt Hathcock, but from the books I have read, even he had respect for this particular factor. I can readily interpret ballistic and trajectory tables, but even with a wind-watch and LRF to confirm matters, it remains a variable nonetheless. Ergo, there must be a "risk" on-game, one which I personally, could not afford to take. Hence, my initial question, how is a LR rifle mounted? I can only assume in a solid jig, allowing the dial-ins to be made from a fixed datum. I would love to know.

As was stated earlier, I understand that it is a case for horses for courses, as the desert photo demonstrates admirably. The European scene is clearly different, but our POA options are further restricted by legislation and food standards, these being: heart/lung, head, high and low neck only. Quartering shots have to be weighed up, as any penetration of the diaphragm and thereby, rupture of the rumen, renders the carcass as "contaminated" and subject to destruction (burial). Therefore, we have to use our rifles like a surgeon's knife; I prefer a high heart shot to sever the pulmonary artery and aorta. One thing is certain, nothing up the arse - we leave that to our politicians!

Accordingly, as our wonderful weather demands, the gear we typically use is of the highest quality. My money is only spent on Sako, Schmidt & Bender and Swarovski - others may have different brand preference. Nonetheless, the rifle must work at dusk and dawn, rain or shine, without compromise; the first shot must be terminal. As for Goretex, it is a non-starter, as it swishes and tears easily on barbed wire. Thus, heavy cotton moleskin, wool, Deertex jacket and Ljundhag boots for me. We also use dogs track a wounded beast (a no-no in the States, I understand), but law in most European States demands that a dog must be available within 20 minutes' notice. To date, I have never needed my lab to assist, but he is asleep in the truck, just in case.

That's the situation, more or less, for deer. However, the hunting banner covers many topics and species. Now, call me a hypocrite, but I have shot foxes at dawn at over 400 yards off a fence post. In these parts, it would be considered rude no to do so!

Thanks for your contributions and fair-play throughout.

Regards,

Jacobite

I had the 180 Accubonds doing 3500 and the 200 accubonds doing 3330 fps . Both with Retumbo. Groups were in the 1.5" but the rifle kept on double grouping (same as the 270 Bee ultralight) so I skim bedded both and ensured the accumark was fully free-floated. The weather has been really bad so I am waiting to go out and play. Velocities are there for both and potential seems great. We will see.

In my opinion you did not start anything. This subject along with some others have been thoroughly discussed here many times and no one will ever agree on one ideology. As far as I am concerned we are all friends here, we just have diferent beliefs that's all.

....well clearly not a Gunner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...I think that covers all the lethal POAs (with the addition of thoracic spine) one might choose for opening shots .....but they are by no means a UK restriction <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

180 3500 that's pretty quick man.That'll pack the mail out there.

Hopefully it shoots right.

In the end it is to each his own and I don't respect anyone more or less either way.

I personally want to try to harvest the animal on his own turf by overcoming it's superior senses....and that is my personal preference and do not expect anyone to feel the same way.
When it bowhunting season, I use a bow and when it is gun hunting season I use a gun.

I have never said that one person is a better hunter than another....and will never say that. Nore do I have doubt in anyone's shooting skills.

All I will say, is that I don't get warm and fuzzy inside when a fellow hunter's goal is to get as far away as possible before they feel it is sporting enough to shoot.
I would not give my Dad a pat on the back if he came to me and said that he saw a deer at 200 yards, so he moved back to 800 yards in order to make it more difficult.

I know that the last paragraph is exagerating and please just take it as that.

I wish everyone luck and hope you all enjoy hunting as I do and help make it always be available for our kids and grandkids.

And that is what I call HUNTING!



Bravo! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

10-4

Jacobite

Nope you didn't start anything, as mentioned by others. We do this and many other things now and again.

I'd like to offer a bit more info as you requested. First off what is long to some is not to others. By target shooting definition here in the US long starts at 800. 600 is mid range. FYI.

How do I rest the rifle? For a longer shot its almost always prone over a pack. Much the same as I shoot my 50, prone over a pack. I don't care for a bipod.
How do they hold? Very well actually, with a laser setup and me holding an AR by sling prone, my wobble is under 0.5 moa. Over a pack its less than that by far.
Wind-- yes it is a factor. But in a medium weight gun, say 10 pounds or less all up, you can have some flat wind resistant cartridges that help a LOT. IE you are used to dinging NATO rounds downrange at long range. I know well because all I shoot in competition is the AR15 in 223 out to 1000 yards. But that round is very similar in ballistics to a 308 round to 1000. Now you may have been exposed to some flatter rounds but normally not.
Compare this with flat rounds used in hunting and the wind is a bit easier to master.
That added with the fact that if you take time to watch mirage I can see any change in speed that is 1mph or more. Coupled with a few other gadgets you have some failsafes. And then add in the fact that you already know what terrain features between you and the target are going to do to the wind, you know exactly what direction its coming from (hence its value) and the simple fact you can focus on each feature per yardage and see exactly what the wind is doing on this knoll, that gully etc...... It takes much more experience than most are willing to put in, but it is very much something that can be conquered.
Thats also figuring that better round, IE BC of between 5 and 6, and a MV of more than likely 3200 plus FPS helps a lot again. Then figure what difference 1 mph of differing wind speed makes and you can see it is possible to be very deadly on a tiny target out to a mid range shot. IE most consider 500 and 600 stretching it, those shots, especially done with a scope(I'm an iron sight service rifle shooter) to keep tabs on things, well lets just say it would surprise me severely to be off more than say 3-5 inches impact wise.

But again, we are talking extremely advanced. If you want to talk true long range, I"m fairly sure we are dealing with 35 pound guns on solid benches and rests..... Guns that have really fast bullets in the BC area of 7 and above. I know that for a true long shot I"d rely much on my 50 instead of other available rounds.

Regards, Jeff

Well I guess its time for me to climb up in a box blind with my scent lock camo on and start shooting deer with a bow over a food plot....NOW THATS HUNTING....By the way,killed my first deer at 12 years old in pa with a BOW FROM THE GROUND...Didn't kill my first deer with a rifle until I was 16....20 years later I just don't find it sporting to shoot anything under 500 yards with a rifle.Didn't get a deer this year.Got one last year though...12 yards with a Black Powder 44cal pistol...Like I said...I Long Range Hunt because I can't sing or dance...:)

Here is a legal buck just to the right of the muzzle brake at a range of fifty yards. Also a doe even further right. I spent the better part of an hour getting to that range and shot it with a digital camera instead of the rifle because that was "sport" to me. Killing the deer at that range was just that "killing".

Any of you who are so lacking in skills that you feel that shooting that deer at 50 yards would be fun can go ahead and shoot. It would not even be a particularly difficult bow shot (with a compound) at only 50 yards.

As I said before, on the last day of deer season I passed on maybe 30 deer and ended the season without "killing" one. I just hunt for fun and do what ever happens to make my day enjoyable.

and 1 other thing, if you've never tried to get the rifle on a buck chasing does at 500 yds, try it, see how unsporting it can be? I know this, in the last 30 years of the hundreds of deer I've taken at under 100 yds, the percentage that gets away if I decide I want them is less than .01 percent, at 500 yds at least 50-60 percent will walk away before you get set up to shoot, another 25-30 percent will not offer a high percentage shot so 85% of the deer you want to harvest at mid-range will just walk out of sight. In my hunting area I may have a window of about 20-30 yds which the deer must stop in, clear of brush and twigs for me to attempt a shot. In my extended range hunting I've shot 22 deer beyond 375 yds, of those there wasn't 1 non fatal hit, and there was a total of 1 clean miss.
While your in the woods honing your hunting skills I'm at the range doing what I enjoy, doing the part of hunting I do best. All hunting involves shooting, I just shoot farther than most, why? because I've developed hereditary hearing loss, I'm 78% deaf, I can't hear a deer walking in the leaves more than 15 yds, how much chance would you have of getting set up to shoot if you didn't know the game was there till they were 45 ft from you?
Game uses they're best defense to keep them alive, predators use they're keen senses and best abilities to take they're prey, I am a predator and I use what I have to make the most of my "hunting" yes it is hunting. different from yours but its still hunting. You say its just shooting, I challenge you, hunt in the wooded ridges around here (eastern wv) take a deer at 700 yds and tell me its just shooting!
RR
RR

WOW??? I just dont know what to say?
If you could get a gun that would shoot a projectile 3000 yards accurate enough to hit a tennis ball would you want one to hunt deer?
As for Your west virginia wooded ridges, do you mean its hard to find a shot that far away. Or do you consider that far. As I live in the Oregon Highdesert and its not uncommon to spot game a mile away.
But why would I want to shoot that far?

Why wouldn't you???

Brown Dog,

A Gunner - pah! I wore their lanyard with pride, after it was stripped from the Royal Regiment for cowardice. You know the tale, the Sappers kept the guns running and spiked them in the face of the Russian infantry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As to the spinal shot, I know that it works well. However, I would only take one from a highseat on a going-away angle. Hereabouts, it is 99% spot and stalk, so such opportunity is slim at best. A particular favourite of min WAS the frontal chest shot, which drops beasts like lightning, although the gralloch is a messy affair. Yet, since the FSA and Game Handling legislation was introduced last year, the local GHE's have become very selective, in terms of carcass spoil. In fact, there is one GHE, which demands what is termed the "butcher's shot" - try not to crack a rib, please!

This has affected our pound price and thus, in an effort to reduce waste, I have been experimenting with CE bullets in the '06 (IB and TSX) and gone up to 160gr in my 6.5x55. The latter is a simple hole punch and is my default choice for roe. It pencils through, but the bleed-out is phenominal. Tool for the job, me thinks. Meanwhile, the TSX is supremely accurate (0.4 MOA) and seemed to do a number on a couple of red hinds, I tried it on. A limited study, but initial impressions are favourable.

Thanks for your contribution and may St Hubertus smile on you.

Regards,

Jacobite

"but law in most European States demands that a dog must be available within 20 minutes' notice."

no wonder theres all the screaming in parlimnet.
"A DOG?, IN 20 MIN? THATS FING STUPID YA BLOKE"
"AH WHADAYA KNOW? AVE YE EVER UNTED?"
"BUGGER YOURSELF LIMEY, ME DADDY RAISED ME UNDER DA FOX HOUNDS"
"BLAH YE DONT KNOW [bleep], FOXS SURLEY AINT YE ROE, BLOKES"

The rumours are untrue, folks. Dick Van Dyke is alive and well and masquerades under the assumed name of "Cohiba"... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nice smoke, BTW!

Seriously, if it were not so tragic, you are not so far from the truth. All you need do is read Hansard's minutes of the "Hunting with Hounds" bill to see bigotry and ignorance in concert. Whilst not a fox hunter, I see no reason for people to be barred from doing as they please on their own property. I don't particularly like golf, but if people enjoy it, that's fine by me. Sadly, in this country, every inch of ceded right and privilege is one yard closer to totalitarianism. Neither I, nor my grandfathers before me took the Queen's shilling to see this county's heritage simply frittered away.

I speak as an injured party, villified by press and politician alike for holding target pistols in the wake of the Dunblane massacre. In essence, 57,000 pistol shooters were disenfranchised and had their possessions seized with minimal financial compensation. In my case, a �4K race gun warranted �1500 and a 2nd Gen Colt '73 costing �1400, just �800 in return. I'll say this for you "Yanks", at least your Government respects its citizens, if not fears them. In my mind, that is no bad thing.

Have a good weekend.

Jacobite

we tried to get yall on the program but you had to do it the kings way.