Please do not misconstrue my question, I am not trying to be antagonistic. Moreover, I am not distance shy and as an ex-Army rifle team member, have shot with open irons out to 800m. Nowadays, I am somewhat more conservative (courtesy of improving age) and as a qualified deer stalker, take upwards of 30 deer every year. For this, I use an '06 with quality 8x56 optics and to date, have never felt wanting. However, my shots are all within 250m, which is nonetheless a long shot from field positions. On the range, things are different and I have from the trench, shot my Sako into less than 2" at 300m (Hun's Head) without significant effort. Thus, both man and machine are capable of better.

Therefore, my question is, what type of rest or jig is used to stabilise the truly impressive rifles used in this discipline and above all, what is the reason for shooting at game over such long distances? Whilst I live in a rural county, I cannot imagine an interrupted field of view exceeding 500m, without some obstacle (tree, fence, cows) affecting both safety and placement.

Any help in explaining the why's and wherefore's would be appreciated, as at present, the scale is beyond my meagre comprehension.

Regards,

Jacobite

Don't you get bored doing the same ole thing every year?
Where is the challenge?
Where is the difficulty?
Where is the sport?

I passed up about 30 deer on the last day of the season because they were all under 350 yards and it was simply no challenge to kill one. It would have just been "killing" and not any enjoyment. The last deer I saw was buck that was in the open field not more than 200 yards from my truck and only 100 yards from me. Simply no sport nor fun nor challenge to make a hundred yard shot. End result is I did not kill a deer but I am just a happy as if I had.

I also bowhunt a lot and that is a lot of fun and I enjoy that immensely.

well it probably has something to do w/ England being about the same size as Alabama.
There is alot of open country here in the US. couple that with our ability to own many weapons and you see that we are very Specialized when it comes to hunting.
There was a time when a man did everything w/ an -06 and a weaver K3. Now we (Americans) tend to want everything and have weapons that we envision as being for specific uses.
Long Range hunting is just one aspect of our variety.
We have people that hunt pigs w/ knives and we have people that hunt deer w/ 50 caliber beanfield rifles @ 700 yards+.
We hunt bear with longbow and turkey w/ 3 1/2 Mag semiauto shotguns.
Thats what happens when you have a conumer driven economy and an advertising gullible populace combined w/ freedom to own almost any weapon designed.

I hunt in the wide open desert; cover and Terrain rarely allow you within 300yrds. It is not uncommon to spot bedded deer at 1.5 miles. It sounds like you hunt in much denser conditions.
You have to be comfortable in your hunting environment, and for me its better to be over prepared than not.

Hi Buffalobob,

Stalking is very challenging, I would say. One has to use fieldcraft and stealth to move into close quarters, select the target beast and despatch it cleanly. Over here, things are stringently controlled, in terms of game management, firearms ownership and above all, health & hygiene and thus, precision is the absolute rule. Do I get a "buzz" from squeezing a trigger? Not really. However, I do get a rush having stalked a hind and her calf to within a few yards and observing Mother Nature at work or better still, having a roe buck come to within 5 paces of me without being compromised. That is my motivation. As for the numbers game, it is a case of managing the population on my lands, as if I were to fail to do so, nutritional stress and over-population could weaken the herd and threaten its long-term survival. This is a balancing act at best, one I struggle with each year.

As to long-range shooting, I can see its role within a park setting from a high seat or hide with a stable platform, when a given cull must be achieved. I've done it, but it equates to nothing more than deer sniping and can be very effective, if time is of the essence. Notably, it is illegal in this country to shoot deer from a vehicle, period. Therefore, we have to get "out there", which clearly can go one of two ways: correctly or tits up. Either way, it is a joy to be in the open and like you, I am happy, even if I have passed up a shot or indeed, seen nothing but trees. There's always tomorrow...

Thanks and regards,

Jacobite

I don't think we are saying anything greatly different. The purpose of hunting is to enjoy the expereince and that does not require that anything be killed.

Shooting from a vehicle is usually illegal in the United Sates and has very little to do with long range hunitng but is usually associated with the 100 yard rifle hunters.

AS far as deer sniping goes, I have put my point out there and that is just that the types of shots you take are not any more than deer killing and boring to my way of thinking. At long range there is a shooting skill level to be acquired through practice and experience. It is possible that I might actually miss. If I got good enough to routinely kill animals at 1000 yards then I would certainly get bored and give it up.

I certainly agree with you that there are few things more enjoyable than having an animal very close to you (as long as it is not going to eat you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but shooting it with a rifle is very little sport. That is why bowhunting still winds my motor.

When things get too easy I will look for a different challenge. The people who have thrown away their compound bows and hunt with the recurves or homemade bows are the ones who are having all of the fun. They might not kill much but they are certainly having a lot of fun trying.

In case it is not clear to you, I will say that I, personally, do not see long range hunting as a way to kill more animals than another method of hunting. In my early days long ago, that was my objective, but I gave it up and mostly went to bowhunting. Now that I am retired I have time to do more different types of hunting I simply see it as a challenge.

WHY???? Because I can't sing or dance

Sometimes you gotta take them were you see them.

Jacobite

I like Boyd's answer and its my first thought as to a reply. IE don't care for it then don't come over here....
But the truth be known, how much time and effort did you expend to become a really good "sniper" in the military? Many years of training and hours involved to be able to put that first round where it counts cold barrel zero at a distance. Lots of effort. Much like stalking, bowhunting etc....

We all revel in differing things. ITs why not all of us hunt, fish, play ball etc... I love thick hunting. With a bow. Closest kill has been 3 yards on the ground, recurve, no blind. I also love hunting a thicket in where I stalk and usually have very close but quick shots with an AR15 that I love very much. I also have hunted where long shots are very workable. Some places one can see for miles literally. And sometimes though you could get closer there are reasons not to want to or time allowances. And to date my longest kill is only 802 yards. Have one that was 950ish but we decided to shoot a rock first to be on the safe side as I was borrowing a gun.....long story....anyway rock was dead but feral sheep started walking off..... no dice.

I take pleasure out of a myriad of opportunities, choosing not to get bored with one(bow kills under 15 yards number over 100 and I got down to a custom recurve instinctive shooting to keep it interesting....)

I think its simply a matter of choice. Why folks love hunting with bow(your choice of style), pistol, muzzleloaders, modern firearms etc... and the distances at which it works out for them given skill, ability etc.... Much as I love hunting with an AR15-- I don't really know why, but I just love it. And I"ve yet to fire a second round with it while hunting.

Hope this clears it up some and answers the question in a civil manor!

Be glad you can still own a firearm and hunt over there. YOu've lost just about everything you possibly can. I revel in the fact I can own and shoot a class 3 gun, hunt year round something, carry a 45 almost anywhere I want to, reload, shoot matches, and have my own property. Though our democrats are quickly trying to erode all those rights by one method or another.

Jeff

Congradualations on your style of hunting. First, a bit of information from someone that has hunted all over the UK. You can only shoot an animal in the lungs. A shot anywhere else results in a hugh fine. All meat is sold commercially & belongs to the estate. I usually shoulder shoot animals. This is a no no in Europe. Red Stag are a bit smaller than elk & a good sized target, Sika & Fallow Deer are Whitetail size, but Roe Deer are about the size of a German Shepherd, if that. Think a lung shot the size of a cantalope. No public hunting is available. All hunting is on estates so a quota is established. If the estate needs "X" number of animals harvested & you have hunting rights or payed to hunt there a whacking you go. Remember, it also rains most of the time & is usually foggy. The terrain is just great to stalk in. Until you have fell into a bog up to your a$$ you don't know what true hunting really is. Believe me I have in Scotland. Love the hunting there & the people. Very hunter & gun friendlly once out of London. I plan to return soon.

tbear,
It sounds as though you've confused some constraints imposed on you by your stalker as being a UK policy...it isn't <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you make return visits and get to know him (and he comes to know and trust your ability) you'll probably find those 'rules' will relax/disappear.

Glad you enjoyed the Highlands!

I understand both sides of this arguement. I don't have a problem with anyone shooting long range. I know people that have done it and I have made a couple of long shots.
Although this year I shot my whitetails at less that 30 yards and my elk at less than 30 feet.

All and all I do my best to get as close as possible without spooking the animal....the reason for this is I would be sick if I shot off a front leg or wounded an animal because I was pushing the envelope on range for reasons such as "it is boring to shoot them close".

These are just my thoughts. I am not saying anyone on here has wounded an animal.....but if you have ever missed one, that means that it could have very easily been a wounded one.

Just my 2 cents.

Because sometimes the landscape makes it a pretty useful skill to have.

This forum title should be changed to Long Range Shooting.

Let's call a spade a spade folks.

Here in PA, there are over 450,000+ deer shot every year. While I don't have hard data to back up my opinion but I am willing to guess that 90-95% are shot under 150yds.

I have killed critters so close that I probably burned some hair on the hide clear out to 615yds. In addition to having a rifle built for such hunting, a caliber capable of humane kills, rest, rangefinder, ballistic knowledge on the rifle, and a spotter. I have a self imposed limit on my range under a different range of conditions. This limit is to insure that I limit the variables to a wounded animal. I am dead accurate out the 850yds but it would have been a pop shot on the critters that have been out to that range had I pulled the trigger. Not going to do it.

Well, first let me say, this thread seams to be antagonistic. I am new to the fire and couldnt help but get involved in this topic because I for one dislike Long range shooting. It probably is bad form to come on here and say anything as the providers of this sight deem it a acceptable enough "sport" to offer it as a catagory in the forum directory.
But that said, I feel the excuse of shooting a deer within proficient weapon range is "boring" and unsporting, unacceptable for rationalizing long range shooting.
In my opinion, the only reason for long range shooting is lack of hunting skills, which should not be confused with shooting skills.
First is the factor of wounding. If you miss, that means the projectile did not go where it was intended. Could be shooter error, or animal movement. Both exagerated at long distance targets. This is not hunting or "sport". It is the difficulties of shooting long ranges.
Second , What is sport? For that mater what is hunting. Is hunting the challenge of beating the game animals senses and getting close enough to kill it? And is sport not the METHOD used to achieve this goal?
Third, where do we as hunters draw the line at weapon technology. When is enough, enough? Would it be challenging to shoot a laser 1000 yards? Or click the shoot button on a remote rifle over the internet?
A picture of the desert is little arguement of why you should shoot 600 yards. The open sage is a defense, just as the deep swamp or dizzying cliffs which our prey have evolved in to survive, and escape predators. Technology can eliminate these obstacles, Yet is it sport to do so ?
I for one have seen the affects of long range shooters. The jaws blown off, legs gone, gut shots and such. Not to start about the attitude of the magnum hunter. Who shoots 600 yards at a elk and proclaims " I musta missed. If this 300 weatherby would have hit him he'd be down." As the gut shot animal walks off unaware a hunter is even in the woods.
If you want the challenge of shooting, why not shoot targets. If you want to hunt , why not try hunting?

Amen Brother! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How does lack of hunting skills have anything to do with killing a deer. We are killing animals are we not? So what is the difference if average Joe who shoots his gun 5 times at the camp to see if he is still minute of deer on his pie plate and kills a deer at 75yds versus an individual who shoots 500+ rounds with dozens of different combinations of powder, seating depths or bullet styles/weights at 550 yards?

Spade or not Killin is killin regards of choice of weapon.

BTW do you know how large a deer is at 500 yards while standing a bunch of jing weeds on a 100 acre hillside? I am willing to bet I spend more time with my binos over my eyes in one day than most do the entire season. If I want up and personal, I grab the bow.

Just out of curiousity, do any of you "hunters" have modern-technologically advanced scopes on your rifles? Gortex in your boots? Water proof gear? GPS? ATV?

CAUSE THEY CAN'T DO IT IN FRANCE, REASON ENOUGH FOR ME.

I used to be antaganistic to long range shots on game, then I became a bit educated on what is possible, and am no working on my skills and equipment.

My thought is, if one has the skills and equipment for taking game at 500m or more, it certainly isn't going to be detriment inside 250 m.

Hunting conditions vary alot around the world, and not everyone has the time to know the land and habits of their quary like the back of their hands.

It really doesn't matter what equipment folks use, so long as they know their limitations and place shots accordingly. I'd say a good lr chap is better suited to take game than the bubba the madly flings bullets, or arrows with little ability to consistantly place them in the vitals.

How does lack of hunting skills have anything to do with killing a deer you ask?

That's easy, barring the use of monstrosity rifle/scope combos, if a guy does not have the requisite hunting skills (ie. ability to get sportingly close to an animal) then he's not at all likely to be a successfull hunter. A successful shooter perhaps, but not a successful hunter.

Reloading and trigger time on the range has very little to do with hunting.

Take a guy that takes to the hills every year with a bow and fills his tag. This same guy can put 'em in tight out to 800 yards on paper. Now, take another guy that only has the tools and skills to shoot out to 800 and kill paper targets and/or animals.

The former is a hunter , the other is merely a shooter . By extension, one is hunting and the other is shooting.

Thus, my rationale for why this particular forum should be more aptly titled Long Range Shooting, instead of Long Range Hunting.

What does lack of hunting skills have to do with killing deer?
EVERYTHING?
Lack of skills is why people have to shoot so far. No excuse. I know all the game I took over 200 yards was because I COULD NOT get any closer. I limited my shots to about 250. If standing and no wind.
And the truth is I should have let them go and tried another day. But I was to lazy and wanted the horns.
Now I only hunt iron sights. I dont need to kill so badly I cant try another day. I have no gortex,gps or any of that bull crap.
Im out hunting for the experience not bragging rights.
That said , to each his own. Just love how quickly you can get someone in the wrong rilled up!

By the way, there is no excuse for bubba shooting like a slob either! The game we hunt deserves more.

Oh and I can shoot, I can regularly ring a gong off hand with my 45-70 at 300 yrds. Doesnt mean I would shoot that at a elk.

Well I guess we will agree to disagree regarding the fact that a long range "hunter/shooter" does not have the woodsmanship to be a hunter by your definition.

I guess I should be ashamed of my top 10 SCI free ranging animal because I shot farther than 250 yards?

Only if it was free-ranging inside a high fence. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My point exactly, Make sure you tell us of your trophy. The score of his horns matters more than the method taken.

What I do not understand is what the difference is between a elk or bear or whitetail or muley or antelope or sci top 10 trophy at 500 yards. There is no difference between shooting a doe or smart ole monster at 500 yards. How would either know you where even hunting them. Unless you already have spooked them.
And let me get this straight. The sport/challenge of long range shoot/hunting is you might miss? So your trophy may get away or get wounded? Dont we owe it to the game we hunt as ethical hunters to strive to make shots we are sure will cleanly kill? But wait, that would take the challenge/sport out of the long range "hunt".
I know this will change no ones mind, so I agree to disagree, thanks for the debate! I enjoyed it.

Cacci

I dno't know anyone that hasn't missed ever. That means everyone is capable of wounding, regardless of range.

Jeff

Mr Spade, I mean bushcraft.

Lets call all rifle hunting shooting then too. Doesn't take any skill to get within 200 yards of a deer either. Now maybe the only real hunters are bowhunters??

Jeff

In my outfitting bussiness the worst weapon for deer miss/wounding is blackpowder guns. Nebraska only allows open sights or 1x scope so that is part of the problem but we have had very few hunters show up that have spent anytime developing loads. You see TV shots of xxx yards and these people think they can do this with the data on the bullet box. Will I go to a muzzelloading forum to partake in a "lively debate" on how unethical it is to wound deer with crude weapons? No, as I thoroughly enjoy blackpowder, archery,and yes, long range hunting. It is all hunting in one manner or another requiring different skills and I will never critisize ones choice as long as it is legal and they have prepared themselves.

Safari

True where do we draw the line. Challenging is not a modern rifle, lets limit it all to matchlocks or even spears?

Have you noticed that many folks that take long shots are also bowhunters? I'm proficient on both ends, close and long. Each takes a skill set. My choice. Not your choice. I don't fault you for a close range shot, why fault my choice? Result is still a dead deer.

Your scenario on the elk, sorry, wake up brother, taht one gets played out, simply by numbers of slob hunters period, at ranges of 200 and well under all season long..... For the most part I'd bet the dedicated long range folks put in many more hours of time and effort than the average joe, and on average, wound much less than the average joe.

Too much name calling here, and division.

Jeff

Safari, you fail to realize that everytime you pull the trigger you take a risk. One just never knows. As to skills, you can shove that statement, as mentioned I happen to enjoy lots of variations of skills. Have you killed anythign with a custom recurve, instinctively, at 3 yards on the ground? And you are saying (you are blindly painting a wide stroke of all that take mid range shots) taht I have no hunting skills? You have said such. I enjoy that bow very much. I enjoy what it takes to shoot a muzzleloader. I enjoy what it takes to make a mid range shot also.

Why such condescending tone? Why exactly are you correct and I am wrong?

If it simply changes all of your life to change the forum sub title to long range shooting at game animals, I'm all for that, lets petition Rick and go with it. Won't change the fact that its different strokes for different folks.

Jeff

Buffalo, send a link on your outfitting, PM is fine.
I may be interested. I like your tone!
I hunt varying weapons and distances!! Preparation is the key. My nephew can't hit an elk target every time from field position at 75 yards. I can hit it every time in the vitals from field positions at 200. It takes practice and effort as you mention. Iron sights are tough but the skill level is up to the time put in. Much like it is for the mart mart crowds with the bore sighted rifles opening morning....

Thanks, Jeff

Well , No I havent killed anything with a custom recurve at 3 yards. But one of many I have killed with a bow include, A nice raghorn bull at about 12 paces with a english yew wood longbow and horn tips, [email]74@27[/email] inches. Which I built!
I did state that it was bad form to come to your house ,so to speak and start something! Sorry couldnt resist. And I am done now , as I stated in my last post. I agree to disagree.

What does bother me is that "hunting" continues to go high tech. And I feel we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
No more longbows, now we have ultra short arrow throwing machines capable of 100 yard accuracy.
No more flintlocks, now we have inline scoped professional hunters!
And no longer is the old 30-30 or 06 good enough, Now we need 500 yard rifles.
All to shoot some meat which few of us need?
I do know very well about wounding, If you hunt very long you learn the hard way. enough said.
I am not a purist, and am not into dividing our ranks, Just playing the devils advocate and asking some questions.
As mini pearl would say " Im thru playin now!"

OOPps I forgot, I shot a doe once with a damon howatt hunter. Not custom by any means. She was jumping over me. I hit her in the brisket and it went out her right shoulder high. She walked off for a handful of yards , wobbled and fell. It was very personal.

Jeff,
PM sent, I think.
Thanks
Lance

Safari

Yes agree to disagree. Just chaps me that others do what they want, yet toss stones at something they don't participate in when, as mentioned, the goal is a dead animal.

Nice kills with the longbow, thats something I never could get into much. Tried and tried and just kept coming back to the Brackenbury. Have stone heads, but have only shot one, a miss, and have not gone back to that route for some reason. Though an aquaintence killed many with them over the years.

I get kinda miffed quick like you do too. I've just simply got too many years in long range competition with iron sights to know what is accomplished took much more for a for sure long range shot to impact correctly, than it ever took me to learn and become adept at bowhunting. And all other methods in between. So the time dedicated is there.

I myself fight tecnology a lot. Its like an internal battle. I always go back adn think, he we are not walking anymore, we ride, we fly..... I'm not hunting with a club or a cliff, I've passed that. All this current technology will be old in coming years. I'm guessing we may be hunting with funky weapons in years lamenting the fact that the hard way to do it was with laser rangefinders and real bullets and if you didnt' do it that way you are a wuss for using technology.....

Very hard to civilly sort this out on a board.

Thing is, I really respect each others choices. For instance I've had some bad experiences with round balls in MZ guns. I shoot conicals. I get condemned, yet conicals have been around a long time. I love MZ seasons that only allow iron sights. Yet when I hunt a state that allows scopes, I do take that advantage, as my sig line says, Just in case.

If I was out only for the experience of the woods I can do it without a gun or tags..... I am out to kill. Sometimes it works soemtimes it doesn't.

Thanks for your time!

Jeff

Jeff,

Clearly there is a grey area. No disputing that. My gripe lies with chestbeaters shooting animals way out there and bragging about (via implication) their "hunt" and/or their "hunting" skills. Where was the pursuit? Where exactly was the hunt? Where was the essence of fair-chase? Increasing the distance is easy, why not stalk in as close as you can regardless of the weapon in your hand to see just how good you really are and in the process make the experience that much more sporting and challenging AND create an even greater assurance of a fast kill?

Any fattass road hunting slob can buy shooting accuracy. On the other hand, one must learn, earn and continually hone their hunting skills.

Anyway, distance or weapon choice is not at the heart of my gripe. You know as well as I do that taking an animal at three yards can be done by just about anyone with just about any adequate weapon. Park your butt downwind of a well used game trail for 10 days during the rut and I garuantee that you'll get a shot at something, that is if you don't die of sheer boredom first. That's not hunting in my book either, its called sitting. Plenty of people do it and take animals, but we don't have a short range hunting forum. Why? - because no one would brag about it! (BTW, I'm not saying or implying this is what you did, I'm just providing the example.)

Jeff,

Just read your last post...our thinking is probably closer than what I initially surmised given your 4th paragraph.

Allen

If you weren't there hunting with the folks that went long, how can you say they didn't persue their game?

It's a big hunting world with alot of different hunting conditions, so don't be so quick to condem those that hunt differently than you as unethical or shooters vs hunters.

They elitists and their high and mighty stands will do more harm to hunting than the antis.

458,

C'mon...don't even try to pin that devisive elitism BS on me. No division here...let's just call a long range shot at an animal what it is...a long range shot.

Whats the magic distance the differentiates between hunting and shooting?

It's a fair question, and there needs to be some basis for the reasoning vs, it just doesn't seem like hunting past X yards.

I think some of the others have hit it on the head. "Long range" means different things to different people depending on their skill level. I too have seen people who don't have any business shooting at game at even 50 yards, such as the fellow in WY on an antelope hunt who couldn't hit a doe standing broadside at about 50 yards resting his rifle on a truck hood. He missed shot after shot at game, thankfully not wounding any by some miracle. His shooting form was terrible and I wonder if his scope was even zeroed.
I have personally taken game out to 500 yards. Most of my deer, however, have been shot at 50-80 yards and I have also taken 20 or so deer with a bow. I don't feel that I should have to justify my taking of a "long" shot when I am sure of the range and the trajectory of my rifle and am in a steady shooting position.
Three years ago I passed up a shot at what would have been the largest buck I have ever taken, an 8 pt whitetail that probably would score around 140". A magnificent mature animal. He was standing broadside at 275 yards but some high grass prevented me from assuming a steady prone or sitting position (believe me I tried!). My crosshairs wobbled on and off him and I just couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger and risk wounding him. I had to watch him just walk off. Under those circumstances 275 yards was way too far for me to make a precise shot. Had I been in prone position with no grass in the way I could have almost certainly placed my bullet within an inch or two of my aiming point at that distance.
I guess my point is that we should all try to be as proficient with our equipment as possible so that we can take advantage of the shot opportunities that our hunting skill such as it is presents us. Some guys have no business taking a 50 yard shot and some guys can make a sure shot at 500 yards nearly 100% of the time. Which one is the unethical shot? I say to each his own, just know your limitations and be responsible.
I hope everyone has a fun and successful hunting season this year.

458,

Good question that relates to my earlier "grey area" statement. Again, my gripe comes down to the bragging about the long distance thing. Having a forum titled Long Range Hunting might initiate some dufuss that has no business taking the shot to attempt the shot in the hopes that he too could post a thread and join the ranks of the Great White Long Distance Hunter, when all he's really doing is sending a bullet downrange....big f'ing whoop-dee-doo I say.

First of all the shot was 277 not 500. Secondly, I really don't believe that (other than a water hole) your average shot on any sheep species is going to be on the shorter distances. I think I would call 12,000 acres of cattle fence free range <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So that hunt is a good example of knowing my gun, its ballistics and certainly my limitations with that particular gun. From the time we first saw the sheep to the time I pulled the trigger was almost 3 1/2hrs. The first 1 1/2hrs was making the 3 mile walk around the aoudad to work the wind and come in from above. The next two hours was a cat and mouse game of getting within range to make the shot. Hell I didn't even run down to the animal after the single shot because I wanted to have a total experience. I stood their against the yucka plant, close my eyes, felt the rain/wind on my face and smelled the desert air.

That was a "hunt" my friend and not a shooting contest. Yes the challenge was real.

In regards to wounding an animal, I know people who have no business shooting 130 yds (clearly not "long" range). Do I agree that we owe it to the animal for clean kill, DARN RIGHT. I believe you have categorized long range shooters of just launching lead down range. For me it quite the opposite, I will pass it is not right. Matter of fact, on my mentioned hunt I did not shoot at 325 because of the wind/rain. This is the gun that is good out to 800yds.

Don't believe any inches were given?

You could say that any information could lead a dufus to attempt something he doesn't have the skills for. Really no different than a guy who doesn't know anything about bow hunting having a 5 pin sight fit to his compound so he can shoot out to 50 yds, or further, despite not being able to consistantly put shots into the vitals at 1/2 that distance.

This forum is for those that have the skills to accurately place shots at long range to share what they know with those who would like to learn.

Even if one never intends to shoot past their rifles PBR, having the skills to accurately place shots at 2 to 3 times that range won't ever hurt.

As I've said, you can't be too good of a shot, or have too accurate of a rifle. True it won't mitigate lack of hunting skills, but it might just compliment them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You see discussions from time to time where someone claims to have seen numerous wounded animals as a result of long range shooting. I have a hard time believing there are that many people out there that are truly set on a long distance shot and have the equiptment to do it. It seems that every wounded Elk wondering around Montana was shot from some extreme distance. I think it is irresponsible to make such statements with as it appears as more speculation than fact. How many people are lugging around 12+ lb. rifles with the barrel half burned up from load developement, $1,000 plus scopes, rangefinder, weather station, ballistic software on a palm etc. etc.? Would you say 1 in a 1000 in the field? Probably less. These shooters/hunters, what ever your preference, aren't causing problems because there isn't enough of them to matter. If someone would go on a quest to somehow limit a persons ability to shoot game at long ranges through regulation, please remeber that the trusty old 300 Win Mag you've carried for years can be very deadly at 1K.

Lance

I think ya`ll ought to go to WY and shoot p-dogs @600+yrds. I just got a 40S&W for the close ones... If you like it keep shootin, if you don`t go home! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Congratulations on your past long range shooting successes, POP. Very nice shooting. Good to see you're as lousy a hunter as the rest of us.

Spades are spades, and I call this one a hypocrite.

I sincerely hope I am wrong and that was an attempt at sarcasm on your part.

To each his own, but there is room for everyone. Auto Insurance companies are pressuring Wildlife management to open up hunting near populated area due to all the wrecks caused by deer hits on roads. Muzzle loaders and bow hunters are the only ones allowed due to the limited range of projectiles. Reasoning behind that is that long range gun bullets can travel several miles. Horns are of no interest to me and my wife/her friends finds it a disgusting ritual. I have left many handsome racks in the bush with head attached. The best deer head and highest score that I have ever seen scoring in the top 6 Boone and crockett in Alberta was run over by a truck. My cousin took the head off the deer in the ditch, he doesn't hunt deer because he says they stink to much and his kids won't eat it. Opinions vary so widely on every issue. But we all have one thing in common and that is getting out there and hunt hard because it won't be long before you can't anymore. So relax and enjoy yourself and don't get so uptight. Long range/short range all in the same hunting kinship.

POP where are you hiding your earmuffs?

Canuck, Why do you say It wont be long before we cant hunt anymore?

I love that 416 picture POP.A true classic by anymeans.

Bushcraft

The only thing I take exception to, is that you can buy accuracy. Yes you can. But the SKILL to be able to shoot and be 150% sure of your first shot kill, that took me years and years of competition shooting. Its much more difficult than learning to sneak into a deers bedroom and smack em.

I started being a 100-200 yard shooter. Then as I started shooting I"d stretch to 300, but along the way I was realizing that at 300 yards in a match, I could miss a change and miss the center by 5-6 inches(really usually ok on game though) BUT not making me happy. I started match shooting in 91. It was not until about 96-98 that I was totally confident in being able to lay down, look at it all and dump a center shot cold bore at beyond 300 yards. And its progressed to where I can do it at 600 every time too(somewhat weather dependant and thats why I decline some shots, much as mentioned about a close buck, but not 150% sure of the shot, I"ve let em walk under 100 yards for similar reasons)

Now I do totally agree on idiots "skyblasting" Those same idiots are usually as dangerous at 100 or 200 as they are at long range, and more than likely more dangerous up close as further out most don't even come close to game. IE not even within feet....

I do not suggest and never have, than anyone push their known limits. Though thats done all the time by what I consider short range shooters.

My solution, but folks hate it generally, is to qualify on a range. Even if its off a benchrest, but prefer a field shooting test. Cost prohibitive, but it would sure place folks where they need to be.

I"ve mentioned before that I quit a great guiding job because I wanted to make folks "qualify" on a paper plate for those that wanted to hunt the stands with 300 yard plus oats patches opportunities. Have seen enough wounded deer from 250-400 yard (mid range) shots that aggravate me.

So yep, I'm wishy washy in a way, but those that choose and do the work for mid range or longer shots, and are qualified to take those shots, they put in much more time each year than most normal hunters do. Won't argue that its shooting vs stalking, but then again you state that sitting isn't "hunting" to you either. So we are on the same tune, just a different page.

Call it what you wish, but the skill level for long shots is way beyond the skill to get within 100 yards of any animal that I've ever hunted.

BTW why do I take long shots? Sometimes for the challenge, often its whats offered at that moment in time or nothing, and its something that I want, yet that doesn't mean I take every long animal I see. I prefer to go to the table with a loaded deck if you will. If that deck deals me a short shot, great, if not...... well there is my sig line....

Regards, Jeff

Jon, we have been though this before on another forum haven't we? Anyone can do what they want, just like anyone can have an opinion. You can air yours as I air mine.

A hypocrite? OK yah....according to your standards.
500 yards is my limit and yes that is extreme long range for me. Ideal conditions existed (for probably the only time in windy Wyoming <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />). I could not get closer after a while of trying so I took the shoot. If this makes me a hypocrite then OK........

but in my opinion not quite the same as:

[color:"red"]
1. Hmm he is too close, let me see if I can get one wayyyy out there.

2. Let's see... I can get closer but my ego does not allow me to kill one that close.


3. Let me lob substandard match bullets at deer/elk at over 1000 yards just because their bc is higher. [/color]


Please do not mistake the above statements as an invite to a flame war that has been fought I do not know how many times here and on other forums. These are statements that have been infered by myselfand others from statements and actions of some long range shooters. Again this is my opinion just like the gentleman who suggested you call it long range shooting and not hunting...because hunting it is not.

The guy who is taking the picture has them...on the 416 pix that is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Father time man. I'm already having hip problems and can't walk very far anymore If you hunt every year, how many hunts have you got left before the old body is worn out?
So hunt hard and hunt long because it isn't an infinite number.

I really got lucky finding that classicmark II unfired in box...and it is a Jap also.

I also got lucky about a month ago and picked this 378 WBY jap again and has 3 shots through her. I believe that because she has no muzzle break.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

378 bee


416 bee



270 ultralight bee



30-378 Bee Accumark



man can you tell I have been on a WBY kick?

the fact that you guys give two schitts about what anyone other than yourselves think is the correct way to hunt simply amazes me. If you don't think that shooting a deer or other big game animal at a certain distance is hunting, oh well. I do my own thing and if folks cain't except it that is their burden not mine.........Blake

depends on terrain.
out west the animals can see you from a farther distance so its not gonna be the same as here in the south.
were i hunt if you can see more than a couple hundred yards your in a pasture.

or a powerline.......Blake

POP that 378 is simply stunning.All your bee's are pretty nice.Did ya find a good load for your 30-378?Nice to see the Made in the USA on the box.

Guys,

I apologise for starting a schitt-storm (couldn't resist the spelling on that one - bravo!), as that was not my intention at all. Alas, I am on business in Italy, so my opportunity to access the Net has been limited, hence the all-quiet. However, the debate is wonderful, allowing concepts to be developed and real-time experience to be shared. Thank you.

To establish some facts, I was not actually a sniper, merely an Army Officer (Captain in the Royal Engineers, commando and diver trained). I shot both pistol and service rifle internationally - no biggy really. However, during my training period, the last 30 years and still learning, I have come to fear one thing at distance, the wind. I'm no Sgt Hathcock, but from the books I have read, even he had respect for this particular factor. I can readily interpret ballistic and trajectory tables, but even with a wind-watch and LRF to confirm matters, it remains a variable nonetheless. Ergo, there must be a "risk" on-game, one which I personally, could not afford to take. Hence, my initial question, how is a LR rifle mounted? I can only assume in a solid jig, allowing the dial-ins to be made from a fixed datum. I would love to know.

As was stated earlier, I understand that it is a case for horses for courses, as the desert photo demonstrates admirably. The European scene is clearly different, but our POA options are further restricted by legislation and food standards, these being: heart/lung, head, high and low neck only. Quartering shots have to be weighed up, as any penetration of the diaphragm and thereby, rupture of the rumen, renders the carcass as "contaminated" and subject to destruction (burial). Therefore, we have to use our rifles like a surgeon's knife; I prefer a high heart shot to sever the pulmonary artery and aorta. One thing is certain, nothing up the arse - we leave that to our politicians!

Accordingly, as our wonderful weather demands, the gear we typically use is of the highest quality. My money is only spent on Sako, Schmidt & Bender and Swarovski - others may have different brand preference. Nonetheless, the rifle must work at dusk and dawn, rain or shine, without compromise; the first shot must be terminal. As for Goretex, it is a non-starter, as it swishes and tears easily on barbed wire. Thus, heavy cotton moleskin, wool, Deertex jacket and Ljundhag boots for me. We also use dogs track a wounded beast (a no-no in the States, I understand), but law in most European States demands that a dog must be available within 20 minutes' notice. To date, I have never needed my lab to assist, but he is asleep in the truck, just in case.

That's the situation, more or less, for deer. However, the hunting banner covers many topics and species. Now, call me a hypocrite, but I have shot foxes at dawn at over 400 yards off a fence post. In these parts, it would be considered rude no to do so!

Thanks for your contributions and fair-play throughout.

Regards,

Jacobite

I had the 180 Accubonds doing 3500 and the 200 accubonds doing 3330 fps . Both with Retumbo. Groups were in the 1.5" but the rifle kept on double grouping (same as the 270 Bee ultralight) so I skim bedded both and ensured the accumark was fully free-floated. The weather has been really bad so I am waiting to go out and play. Velocities are there for both and potential seems great. We will see.

In my opinion you did not start anything. This subject along with some others have been thoroughly discussed here many times and no one will ever agree on one ideology. As far as I am concerned we are all friends here, we just have diferent beliefs that's all.

....well clearly not a Gunner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...I think that covers all the lethal POAs (with the addition of thoracic spine) one might choose for opening shots .....but they are by no means a UK restriction <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

180 3500 that's pretty quick man.That'll pack the mail out there.

Hopefully it shoots right.

In the end it is to each his own and I don't respect anyone more or less either way.

I personally want to try to harvest the animal on his own turf by overcoming it's superior senses....and that is my personal preference and do not expect anyone to feel the same way.
When it bowhunting season, I use a bow and when it is gun hunting season I use a gun.

I have never said that one person is a better hunter than another....and will never say that. Nore do I have doubt in anyone's shooting skills.

All I will say, is that I don't get warm and fuzzy inside when a fellow hunter's goal is to get as far away as possible before they feel it is sporting enough to shoot.
I would not give my Dad a pat on the back if he came to me and said that he saw a deer at 200 yards, so he moved back to 800 yards in order to make it more difficult.

I know that the last paragraph is exagerating and please just take it as that.

I wish everyone luck and hope you all enjoy hunting as I do and help make it always be available for our kids and grandkids.

And that is what I call HUNTING!



Bravo! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

10-4

Jacobite

Nope you didn't start anything, as mentioned by others. We do this and many other things now and again.

I'd like to offer a bit more info as you requested. First off what is long to some is not to others. By target shooting definition here in the US long starts at 800. 600 is mid range. FYI.

How do I rest the rifle? For a longer shot its almost always prone over a pack. Much the same as I shoot my 50, prone over a pack. I don't care for a bipod.
How do they hold? Very well actually, with a laser setup and me holding an AR by sling prone, my wobble is under 0.5 moa. Over a pack its less than that by far.
Wind-- yes it is a factor. But in a medium weight gun, say 10 pounds or less all up, you can have some flat wind resistant cartridges that help a LOT. IE you are used to dinging NATO rounds downrange at long range. I know well because all I shoot in competition is the AR15 in 223 out to 1000 yards. But that round is very similar in ballistics to a 308 round to 1000. Now you may have been exposed to some flatter rounds but normally not.
Compare this with flat rounds used in hunting and the wind is a bit easier to master.
That added with the fact that if you take time to watch mirage I can see any change in speed that is 1mph or more. Coupled with a few other gadgets you have some failsafes. And then add in the fact that you already know what terrain features between you and the target are going to do to the wind, you know exactly what direction its coming from (hence its value) and the simple fact you can focus on each feature per yardage and see exactly what the wind is doing on this knoll, that gully etc...... It takes much more experience than most are willing to put in, but it is very much something that can be conquered.
Thats also figuring that better round, IE BC of between 5 and 6, and a MV of more than likely 3200 plus FPS helps a lot again. Then figure what difference 1 mph of differing wind speed makes and you can see it is possible to be very deadly on a tiny target out to a mid range shot. IE most consider 500 and 600 stretching it, those shots, especially done with a scope(I'm an iron sight service rifle shooter) to keep tabs on things, well lets just say it would surprise me severely to be off more than say 3-5 inches impact wise.

But again, we are talking extremely advanced. If you want to talk true long range, I"m fairly sure we are dealing with 35 pound guns on solid benches and rests..... Guns that have really fast bullets in the BC area of 7 and above. I know that for a true long shot I"d rely much on my 50 instead of other available rounds.

Regards, Jeff

Well I guess its time for me to climb up in a box blind with my scent lock camo on and start shooting deer with a bow over a food plot....NOW THATS HUNTING....By the way,killed my first deer at 12 years old in pa with a BOW FROM THE GROUND...Didn't kill my first deer with a rifle until I was 16....20 years later I just don't find it sporting to shoot anything under 500 yards with a rifle.Didn't get a deer this year.Got one last year though...12 yards with a Black Powder 44cal pistol...Like I said...I Long Range Hunt because I can't sing or dance...:)

Here is a legal buck just to the right of the muzzle brake at a range of fifty yards. Also a doe even further right. I spent the better part of an hour getting to that range and shot it with a digital camera instead of the rifle because that was "sport" to me. Killing the deer at that range was just that "killing".

Any of you who are so lacking in skills that you feel that shooting that deer at 50 yards would be fun can go ahead and shoot. It would not even be a particularly difficult bow shot (with a compound) at only 50 yards.

As I said before, on the last day of deer season I passed on maybe 30 deer and ended the season without "killing" one. I just hunt for fun and do what ever happens to make my day enjoyable.

and 1 other thing, if you've never tried to get the rifle on a buck chasing does at 500 yds, try it, see how unsporting it can be? I know this, in the last 30 years of the hundreds of deer I've taken at under 100 yds, the percentage that gets away if I decide I want them is less than .01 percent, at 500 yds at least 50-60 percent will walk away before you get set up to shoot, another 25-30 percent will not offer a high percentage shot so 85% of the deer you want to harvest at mid-range will just walk out of sight. In my hunting area I may have a window of about 20-30 yds which the deer must stop in, clear of brush and twigs for me to attempt a shot. In my extended range hunting I've shot 22 deer beyond 375 yds, of those there wasn't 1 non fatal hit, and there was a total of 1 clean miss.
While your in the woods honing your hunting skills I'm at the range doing what I enjoy, doing the part of hunting I do best. All hunting involves shooting, I just shoot farther than most, why? because I've developed hereditary hearing loss, I'm 78% deaf, I can't hear a deer walking in the leaves more than 15 yds, how much chance would you have of getting set up to shoot if you didn't know the game was there till they were 45 ft from you?
Game uses they're best defense to keep them alive, predators use they're keen senses and best abilities to take they're prey, I am a predator and I use what I have to make the most of my "hunting" yes it is hunting. different from yours but its still hunting. You say its just shooting, I challenge you, hunt in the wooded ridges around here (eastern wv) take a deer at 700 yds and tell me its just shooting!
RR
RR

WOW??? I just dont know what to say?
If you could get a gun that would shoot a projectile 3000 yards accurate enough to hit a tennis ball would you want one to hunt deer?
As for Your west virginia wooded ridges, do you mean its hard to find a shot that far away. Or do you consider that far. As I live in the Oregon Highdesert and its not uncommon to spot game a mile away.
But why would I want to shoot that far?

Why wouldn't you???

Brown Dog,

A Gunner - pah! I wore their lanyard with pride, after it was stripped from the Royal Regiment for cowardice. You know the tale, the Sappers kept the guns running and spiked them in the face of the Russian infantry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As to the spinal shot, I know that it works well. However, I would only take one from a highseat on a going-away angle. Hereabouts, it is 99% spot and stalk, so such opportunity is slim at best. A particular favourite of min WAS the frontal chest shot, which drops beasts like lightning, although the gralloch is a messy affair. Yet, since the FSA and Game Handling legislation was introduced last year, the local GHE's have become very selective, in terms of carcass spoil. In fact, there is one GHE, which demands what is termed the "butcher's shot" - try not to crack a rib, please!

This has affected our pound price and thus, in an effort to reduce waste, I have been experimenting with CE bullets in the '06 (IB and TSX) and gone up to 160gr in my 6.5x55. The latter is a simple hole punch and is my default choice for roe. It pencils through, but the bleed-out is phenominal. Tool for the job, me thinks. Meanwhile, the TSX is supremely accurate (0.4 MOA) and seemed to do a number on a couple of red hinds, I tried it on. A limited study, but initial impressions are favourable.

Thanks for your contribution and may St Hubertus smile on you.

Regards,

Jacobite

"but law in most European States demands that a dog must be available within 20 minutes' notice."

no wonder theres all the screaming in parlimnet.
"A DOG?, IN 20 MIN? THATS FING STUPID YA BLOKE"
"AH WHADAYA KNOW? AVE YE EVER UNTED?"
"BUGGER YOURSELF LIMEY, ME DADDY RAISED ME UNDER DA FOX HOUNDS"
"BLAH YE DONT KNOW [bleep], FOXS SURLEY AINT YE ROE, BLOKES"

The rumours are untrue, folks. Dick Van Dyke is alive and well and masquerades under the assumed name of "Cohiba"... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nice smoke, BTW!

Seriously, if it were not so tragic, you are not so far from the truth. All you need do is read Hansard's minutes of the "Hunting with Hounds" bill to see bigotry and ignorance in concert. Whilst not a fox hunter, I see no reason for people to be barred from doing as they please on their own property. I don't particularly like golf, but if people enjoy it, that's fine by me. Sadly, in this country, every inch of ceded right and privilege is one yard closer to totalitarianism. Neither I, nor my grandfathers before me took the Queen's shilling to see this county's heritage simply frittered away.

I speak as an injured party, villified by press and politician alike for holding target pistols in the wake of the Dunblane massacre. In essence, 57,000 pistol shooters were disenfranchised and had their possessions seized with minimal financial compensation. In my case, a �4K race gun warranted �1500 and a 2nd Gen Colt '73 costing �1400, just �800 in return. I'll say this for you "Yanks", at least your Government respects its citizens, if not fears them. In my mind, that is no bad thing.

Have a good weekend.

Jacobite

we tried to get yall on the program but you had to do it the kings way.

Idiocy knows no borders when it comes to "gun control" as opposed to "gun confescation" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I feel your pain brother, they are trying to do it here as well, and I fear they are slowly succeeding, despite our best efforts....
Cat

Bushcraft and POP, or anyone else who thinks it isn't hunting.

I challenge either one of you to come with me and then we'll see if you can say it wasn't hunting. Hunting does not have a defined distance that I am aware of.
If you would happen to be lucky enough tag along to where I hunt, you'd find yourself well above 9000 ASL. Areas I have pre scouted, areas where I have bugled in the big boys to well, just a hair over 13 paces. I have also found myself preparing for a shot well over 900 yards if the situation was right.
Just because we call ourselves long range hunters doesn't mean we always look for that situation. However, should it arise we are prepared and can take the shot ethically and cleanly.
Again, open invitation for anyone who says this isn't hunting to spend some time with me. It may just change your mind. Trust me no fat ass road hunter could handle even the first 5 min. with me or anyone who hunts with me.

I also hunt in Wilderness areas since I am a WY resident. I know what it's like up there....way up there.

My problem with this sort of ""HUNTING"" is that some people do it to show off to their internet buddy crowds and others do it because they are ego-maniacs.
There is a myriad of posts that epitomize this point but I will not refer to them. Look around and you will find them.

Taking a laptop, an 100 lbs bench, a 25 lbs rifle into the field, feeding it substandard (for game) match bullets just because their BC is higher, and specifically looking for a game animal past 1000 or 1500 yards away just to feed your ego and brag to your buddies? No thanx. Nothing hunting about that buddy. At least in my opinion.
You wanna do that? Great ! Get a lifelike target set it up at 3000 yards and have at it. Hell I am in too!
I practice long range also. Given the situation I know I can make a 700-800 yard shot but I do not. I rather hunt and stalk the game. This to me is hunting. the aforementioned is long range shooting.

BTW the below statement is what separates you from the rest!
ou wrote:

"Just because we call ourselves long range hunters doesn't mean we always look for that situation. However, should it arise we are prepared and can take the shot ethically and cleanly."

To me this is hunting.... I agree. Its what seperates us all. I happen to be able to think that many forms of hunting are just that. Hunting. Long as I'm happy with mine, you be happy with yours.

Lets sit back and think a bit. 100 pound bench and big gun etc... how many hunt from hundreds of pounds deer blinds, with heavy barreled guns? Not a lot of difference. In long green fields. DIdn't the original term come up as bean field rifle.

To further this a bit more, most don't have a problem with folks setting up on a PD colony and shooting. Ain't much different there. Game is game. I don't intentionally let anything suffer and don't think anyone should.

Gets very confusing where one can draw a line so I submit a line cannot be drawn.

My sig line covers my thoughts on the situation anyway.

Jeff

Wait a minute now. Now you're disagreeing with these Long range "hunters". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The reason why is that PD's or other varmints do not consitute any type of game to them. How do I know about that?

I will tell you.

Because these "hunters" only admit to missing, or taking them 6-10 shots to get on target when they are shooting at non-game rock chucks or pds or coyotes.

Amazing though that when they shoot at elk deer antelope or buffallo from one zip code to another they never ever miss.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BLA BLA BLA

Are you referring to me? If so what are you insinuating?

look when the compound bow more than doubled archer's effective range that was cool, when the inline magnum muzzleloaded more than doubled the blackpowder hunters range that was a miracle break-through.
Now that modern equipment, powders and ability have way, way more than doubled the effective range of rifle hunters some of you call foul, guys thats BULLSHIT!
If which this is not speculation, I can hit a 4" circle at 700 yds, because of dilagent work with my rifle and loads in preparation for hunting season, How can you condemn me for it, or better yet HOW DARE YOU CONDEMN ME FOR IT? I don't say a word about you bunch odf lazy bastards that hover over your bait piles to hunt, Nor do I condemn the rich egotistical guys who hunt behind fences, but what I do isn't hunting? Ron White is right, ya can't fix stupid.
Hunting is persuing game and making a humane 1 shot kill, what is it about shooting one at 500 yds that is not hunting. I've hunted both ways, took deer from 3 steps to 627 yds one is just as hard as the other, if you don't believe me try it, don't whine till you know what your whining for.
Oh, how do you figure a 50 yard shot is harder than one at 700? can't wait to hear these responses!
RR

Do you fall in the aforementioned category? If not then let someone else comment on your post because I am not referring to you BTW I have made 500 yards also but for the right reasons. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There are many who do not feel the compound bow or inline muzzleloader are benificial or a positive influence on Archery or Black powder muzzleloading seasons!
The only thing both did for the appropriate hunting methods was made it easier for beginers,(quicker learning curve) And possible for experienced SHOOTERS to increase there killing distances.
Much like a rifle increases killing distance over a bow. What will be next with the rifle to increase its killing range and to what end? Maybe a digital scope/video camera, with range finder and compensater all in one? Ohh are those advertised in the American Riflemen?
Keep shooting yourselves out of hunting!

ACtually I'm not one of those folks that blast away for the heck of it at anything. I will say that a close miss on a PD is a dead deer or elk anytime.

I'll also offer this, on PD they(I can understand this train of thought anyway) don't take the time to work each animal out exactly like they would on a deer. They are taking liberties learning about what conditions do and taking SWAG shots. Its a learning curve. For me, if I ever get lucky enough to do a PD shoot, I'm more of a one shot one kill mentality. Numbers mean nothing. I'll make each shot a game practice shot and do my thing.

Jeff

Safari
Actually we won't progress ourselves out of hunting, though by becoming more efficient, we will or may narrow the opportunities. The only thing that keeps more tags out there than animals needed to thin down is less than 100% success.
For me, given a good shot, I'm 100% normally so give me a tag and show me an animal and its dead. But many others never see game(with my luck I'm often one of those) and lots miss etc....
The more efficient we become, the less tags will be out there since it won't take like 10 tags issued for each elk shot, it might be 2 tags for each elk shot. Thats what we have to watch out for.

Jeff

look if you use cover scent, scent lock, buck lure, or even camo? then you have no room to say nothing, the only thing LR hunters need to efficiently and cleanly take game to 700 yds that a normal 50 yard stumpsitter uses is a rangefinder.
give me a range on an undestirbed deer to 800 yds and I'll give you venison, and I'll kill that deer DRT alot more often then the guy who shoots them at 40 yds.
Its like this, if you shoot 100 yds often, then 100 yds is a chipshot, same for 500 yds, if you know where the bullet hits then its a given. What I want is to know why its unethical?
Are you close enough to god allmighty that you call the shots on who's ethics are right? ethics are a deeply personal and indavidual thing, its not what you do when someone is watching, its what you do when nobody is.
RR

Not me, I have built several rifles to do this type of hunting but have gotten lighter and lighter as time goes by. Typical Tactical types but lightened. Current one will finish at 7-9 lbs depending on scope...

I do carry a pocket pc, and kestral 4000. Not to menton my rifles are fitted with Angle cosign indicators and bubble levels.

I'm prepared for most situations. I have passed on more than one B&C animal because the situation wasn't right.

My beef with this whole thing is that you can't group al uf us LRhunters into one group. You can't make blanket statements to say all of us arn't hunters... I spend as much time in the off season observing areas as much as I do "time in country" hunting. Albeit, my work takes me into my hunting areas...

www.dnrranch.com follow the outfitting button..

;-)

Well Pop

Once more dishonesty has surfaced from you.

This is your statrment




You knew that was untrue when you posted it.
We are probably as a group more honest about our craft than most.

Oh really?

The only misses I have read about and do recall are the ones on varmints and targets at these extreme ranges. The reason why I think is that they are politically acceptable. Missing on game is not. I never recall someone posting that is took him or her 3-4 shots to hit an animal at these ranges.
If I am wrong post it.
Disonesty from me? Hardly buddy. I can quantify my statements. I always analyze what I post and very carefull how I word my posts.

yup most won't because the reply we'll get is "see you were to far" yet short range guys miss all the time and it is acceptable. But God forbid if a LR guy misses...whoa, hold your horses there...it isn't anything but a bunch of I told ya so's
Me personally I have missed 2 times... once at 870 +/- and once at 1521. both were clean and I did kill the 1521 with the next shot.
Never have I wounded an animal or lost one. Ever.

I posted a picture of a deer earlier in the thread. The picture went with a story of a miss. The reason there is a picture is that if there is any doubt in my mind about a shot not being a clean miss, I will take a lot of time and trouble to follow up.

POP, you wrote:
"The only misses I have read about and do recall are the ones on varmints and targets at these extreme ranges. The reason why I think is that they are politically acceptable."

I posted of a miss (even entailed a slight wound) not to long ago-range in the 546 yds. give or take a yard. Got some numbers messed up. I made a drop chart that could easily be confusing with my ART reticle (my fault). Wasn't even rushed on the shot. My practice distance is 600 yards, and I felt really bad. I had never done this in practice, but I blew it that day. The animal was doing fine, as I watched it for over 300 yards, but couldn't shoot (houses and a road). Followed up to the best of my ability (confirming the health or lack of) by doing a lot of walking. Yes, I learned from it (never make a drop chart like that again).
Judging a whole group of people as being all the same (IF my perception is correct) is an interesting choice on your part.

Fellas I am talking about situations likethe above. I am talking about the other heroes.

POP,

Ok he made a mistake he admits it and learned from it...

Can you tell me that NO S.R. hunter has ever done somthing wrong, even somthing he has practiced?
Example: deer hunter walks through dense timber jumps a buck, leaping and bounding away.. hunter says I made this shot before, BOOM, catches the buck iin the hind quarters breaking a leg and the buck keeps on going but hunter never gets a chance for a follow up. Never finds deer. Probobly happens 100's of times a year. But, because "thats hunting" it is OK?

I'm willing to bet the typical L.R. hunter spends more time practicing, learning from practicing and fine tuning his skills than the typical S.R. hunter.

Hell, I've missed short and long range. Repeatedly...

And, connected both short and long range.

Have never lost a big game animal, and save for 2 squirrels that got into holes in trees before expiring, never lost ANY game animal.

Does that count? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you can make the shot, confidently and safely, take it. If not, don't.

POP,
Did you intend to write what you actually typed above or did you mean, "Fellas I am NOT talking about situations like the above. I am talking about the other heroes."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Big azz sausage fingers! Yes that is what I meant to type. Sorry fellas, I apologize.

whew...

Jacobite-

If you go to the elk hunting forum and the "500 shots at elk" thread you'll see where I recounted an experience of mine where even if you hunt hard and well, circumstances may arise where your only shot--certainly different sounding than your situation where you control your own herd by yourself--if you are to take even one will be a long, long one.

Here, in the U.S./North America and particularly the mountain west and high desert southwest, where a prized tag is finally recieved, maybe after years of waiting, the serious among us practice for every contingency; read that as meaning practice with the right equipment to take a clean, killing shot at long range should that be the one that presents itself without the hope of closing the range.

You can put candles in a pile of bullchit, but that dont make it a birthday cake!
There is no sense in trying to convert or reason with the " Its the only shot I had idiots!" long range or short.
And what is with the condecending idea that if a hunter limits there shots to close range they are not proficient shooter?
And this bs, like, Its way up above the timber line and im from montana, wyoming so you dont understand! Give me a break grizzly adams.

Been there, done that, had the restraint to not shoot and either HUNT closer or not tag out!
Shooting game at 1500 yards makes me sick, And if you think that because I call a spade a spade and its going to separate our ranks and mean no hunting , well if this is what more and more "hunters are buying in to than Maybe the antis are right!
Before you go all bat sht and start calling names, I live to hunt! love it , want it around for the future generations, but if they think that this bullsht is hunting then they dont deserve to kill which is all you are doing.
So keep trying to rationalize your actions and pat each other on the backs and ruin Hunters images all the way to the end !
Because with your thinking IT WILL END.

I'm not quite sure if you're angry with me or just everyone on this thread and in general but take it easy friend. I really agree with what's at the heart of your comment; however, your generalization in grouping everybody whose ever taken "a long shot" together is and always will be inaccurate (pun intended).
It's not just the distance in yards; it's all the other circumstances that are present that determine for that hunter at that moment in time whether the shot is ethical or unethical, right or wrong.

Are you referring to me? If so what are you insinuating? [/quote]

Pop, not really specific to you but to this whole stupid notion that you aren't a hunter, your lazy, your use to much technology in hunting, if you like to shoot/kill/aim long range.

Holy crap, on the first day of any rifle season it sounds like a small war zone here in W. PA. While I can't back up this claim, I'm willing to bet a nice chunk of change that the average shot folks are "attempting" are under 150 yards!! No rapid fire when shooting 500 yards.

There is BY FAR MORE IRRESPONSIBLE HUNTERS SHOOTING UNDER 200 YDS THAN THERE ARE OVER 200.

Look, there is no way you can put a ethical or sporting spin on taking a 1500 yard shot at a game animal.
You are correct about the anger. I should chill, I would say it is more disgust.
A 500 yard shot is nothing more than inablility to get closer, and the lack of restraint to wait another day. Or year.
The more I read of what modern hunters feel is sport. The more I realise the Antis will win.

safari,

I'm sure by your post that you are a pefect hunter and have never made a mistake. Sure is a shame to see, that your narrow minded self has no room for teaching new tricks to an old dog.
Sorry to say but long range hunters won't ruin the images of hunting or hunters. Guys like the freak in WI that shot people, yahoo's that shoot at sound and don't identify their target etc. that will ruin hunters images.

get a grip..

Why does it seem as soon as someone questions something, the examend immedietly push the image of purity upon the one questioning.
I would turn the question to you. Why are you so narrow minded as to think others would accept your ideoligy? Why are you so narrow minded as to think you are justified?

Safari-

Sorry, I missed the "1500 yd affair" or whatever it was and can't imagine shooting at game that far either with a hand held weapon.
While I hesitated to post the experience I did just because I didn't want to make people think that's my regular MO, I don't think a ~ 500 yd. shot at a calm, stationary and broadside animal with a large heart-lung target by a practiced rifleman with a good rest is an unethical shot nor a particularly difficult one.

Ah, here's where this spill over to/from the "traditional vs. in-line" ML debate came to and from.

Safari hound

you come up on a thread foaming and frothing at the mouth and giving us a bad time for no reason.

You say we are not skillful and then we prove we are and yet you still continue to foam and froth at the mouth.

Why are you on posting on this thread if all you can do is foam and froth at the mouth?

I realize others aren't always willing to accept what as I do as idealogical. However, blanket statements covering all LRhunters as ruining the image of hunting is a bit beyond the "norm". Especially because ( I am betting here ) You know nothing of how it is done, when it is done correctly.
I am not narrow minded to think I am justified. Let see justified, from the word justify:

to give somebody an acceptable reason for taking a particular action

Because the terrain and conditions did not warrant any other acceptable way of harvesting the animal.

to serve as an acceptable reason or excuse for something

because I was confident and able to do this efficiently and quickly

to give a reason or explanation why something was done

see above...

how's that?

Safari_Hound,

I'll give you my rifle if you can shoot a legal buck on this 80 acre hillside while hunting on that side of the hill, where we sit on the opposite hillside to make our shots. Max range for us will be 559 yards--max range for you 5.5 yds. We will see your skill in the thickets! We will see your skill as a hunter! We will see the blood trail not from an animal but from you bleeding from all the thorns in your legs, arms, ears (my favorite)

Bla-bla-bla

All this talk about hunting in wyoming at high elevation and ruggedness,and need for long range shooting,is a joke. Unlike you rick I'm actually from wyoming not pennsylvania.

I've hunted the North and South Fork numerous times,along with all kinds of other areas in wyoming. The only reason to take a shot over 500 yards(in alot of cases 300 yards),is because to get closer would mean actually hunting the animal. Along with alot of arse breaking effort to cover terrain and run the risk of scaring the animal. This is fully acceptable to the slob that must kill something regardless of possible outcome.

When you're hunting at 9000 feet,most of the hunt is spent getting to that elevation. Most people are burned out by then and the use of long shots on animals, tends to simply matters,that is if they actually connect on the animal with a killing shot.. This is especially true when you're a halfassed outfitter or guide,who is trying to get some east or west coast slob in position for a shot at a game animal. Getting any closer(you know actually hunting) would mean stumbling around,out of breath and whining. The long shot is a band aid in this case.

The only thing that long range shooting of big game animals is,is shooting. Its not hunting,if you were hunting you'd have been closer. I've killed a number of elk,deer and antelope at over 500 yards. I've never been able to confuse this with actual hunting.

Whoa! Reign it in a bit; it's certainly OK to have opinions, even strong ones but not very considerate or polite to criticize by virtue of your generalization above everyone who may not agree with you.

I wouldn't make blanket statements which are judgements about every 300+ yd shot somebody else may choose to make.

Sledder,

I see you think you know me, quit hiding behind that keyboard and let me know who you are...

Never knew it was an issue where we were from... Been here 10 years I think I can speak from experience as far as the hunting here.

You must not have hunted to o far or real hard. I can show you numerous places where "stalking" or as you say "Hunting" would surely get you busted and a long shot might get you the trophy of a lifetime. So I'm not sure of your knowledge of the Northfork and areas above 9000 ft.

I have passed or more then I've killed, so if you are referring to me a s a slob, halfassed outfitter/guide, please let me know who you are and we can meet for a cup of coffee. I'll buy. I think you don't have the guts.


""I've killed a number of elk,deer and antelope at over 500 yards""
Funny how you say it isn't right yet you've done it yourself. I guess you were just in it for to
""kill something regardless of possible outcome.""

Hypocrite...

+1

+1

I am not going to get into the bashing here....

I guess I just fail to understand the motivation of long range hunting.
When I here someone say that shooting from a longer distance makes it more sporting, to me means they are intentionally increasing the difficulty and therefore increasing the risk of not making the perfect hit.
Now, I have seen pictures and information on how well some of the people on here can shoot and practice with hundreds of rounds a year along with developing their own loads etc. I do not want to take anything away from that.
I just don't understand why someone would intentionally increase the chances of missing or wounding an animal in order to make it more difficult or sporting.

I may have misunderstood and if I have would appreciate a better explanation.

I personally feel that if you want to see how far you can shoot....shoot at a target that doesn't have the chance to walk away with a limp.

Guys,

I feel terrible for being the architect of resentment - I was just interested in understanding how the equipment was used and to what purpose. However, the morality or otherwise of hunting only serves to hand a walk-over victory to the likes of the League Against Cruel Sports and PETA, so I would ask everyone to forge a common front and simply agree to disagree, please.

I've shot service rifles to half a mile with iron sights, but on paper only. I've also shot match rifle at 1K with a x24 on top, again paper only. Did I need to practice to hit that Fig 11 / X? You bet - so the skill factor cannot be refuted. I've always maintained, it's the idiot behind the rifle that makes it work. Yet, all of the above was within a controlled environment - the range. The field, I would submit, is not. Therefore, I can only state that within my particular "field", 250m is about as far as I would practically attempt to kill game and only then, with good light. The reason is simple - husbandry. I must select the right target, determine age, condition and sex in all seasons and pelage, be it dawn or dusk. To do so, I use the finest German and Austrian optics, allowing me to check, re-check and check again. Only then, will I unsling the rifle and mount it on an improvised rest (tree, stalking sticks, knee). The shot itself needs to be accurate and lethal, with no holdover. Hence, I must respect my capabilities under the above circumstances - I'm very competent, but no Olympiad.

Landscape and custom will dictate what is both acceptable and safe, I realise. Hence, what works in my backyard may fail in yours. There remains but one caveat, which we all must respect - fallability. Nothing is certain other than the Physical Law. The flight time of a bullet vs. the spacial change of a dynamc target are two factors, I for one, could neither compute, nor consider. To those that can, fair play.

Regards,

Jacobite

No worries!

This happens every so often. It gets all our supressed feelings out so we do not go postal in real life! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.

This is good for stress! In a bit we will all be screaming "SERENITY NOW!!!!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PLUS IT BUILDS CHARACTER!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[color:"red"] CHICKEN SOUP FOR THE HUNTER'S SOUL![/color]

HA HA !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Taking shots at animals beyond 500 yards,isn't hypocritical,its being honest. I can honestly tell you,that having killed a number of animals at over 500 yards,is in no way to be confused with actually hunting. Hence the reason you have to start these type of threads. You yourselves know that this type of shooting isn't hunting.

Anytime you have to question what you're doing as to wether its hunting or not,its not hunting. You've answered your own question.

Thanks for the PM rick.

Didn't think you'd actually tell me who you were...

Come out and slam a guy but hide behind the keyboard... That says alot in itself...

Simply put, shooting deer at 200 yards, even with the basic rifle and scope is boring. Shooting at long distances is a challenge and with a range finder, ballistics calculator and a good scope, not to mention a Wby. 30-378, you can get the job done. Try it sometime and shooting deer at 200 yards will become a sport of the past.

Just my 2 cents worth. Hunting as defined by the Webster dictionary "seeking game". As soon as you go out the door of your house with a gun in hand, you are seeking game. I thought like you also that long range shooting was not sportsmanship. True years ago all we heard about as long range rifles were 308 and 06 which don't have much hitting power out past 500 yards but now they have rifles that are very accurate/scopes and range finders. It is very difficult to judge distance this is why so many people wound or miss. Now they have range finders that can tell range to within 10 feet. I was skeptical also but some fellas that speak out on this forum have a good argument which wasn't in place 15 years ago. Us old fellas have to acknowledge the new crop of hunters coming out with all that fancy gear perching themselves at strategical locations and sucessfully knocking down game at ranges well over 500 yards. After all packing all that gear, you really can't stalk anymore.

378,

You kinda hit the nail on the head, sorta... Things have changed drastically in the past 10 years... Hell manufactures of SCpoe, rifles, almost anuthing hunting related have acknowledged that LR huntig is here. I'm not saying that everyone should do it. THere are definite idiots out there that shouldn't even think about it. Trouble is some who shouldn't will.
The stalk is still park of my game. I just don't often have to stalk as much. There are times I've been able to stalk within 60 feet and times when 600 yards was as close as I was able. But both times I was able to place my bullet. Only took 1.

I don't care what we call it, my supposition leans back towards old bows and hunting on foot for the real thing, anyone can get within 100 yards or less given time, so no firearm is actually hunting to me.....

The subject is how or why we can do this legally and ethically.

378- I don't carry much gear extra. Rangefinder and windspeed meter and about an 8.5 pound gun. Of course I know what the temps are, and have my paper tables. No bench, 15 pound gun etc.... Some do though, you've seen the links. I prefer to shoot off my pack prone or with a sling. Comes from days of competition.

Jeff

I hear your arguement that long range shooting is what makes the difference of GETTING that trophy of a lifetime.
So Youve climbed the mountain, braved the cliffs, scanned the hills and worked to find that old magnificent goat. Finally he is spotted. Laying in a saddle, Not bedded there by chance he has found a refuge. As he lays rechewing his cud of hard earned forage, he relaxes, Yet still vigilant of aproach. He knows if anything appears within a couple hundred yards he can escape. Hard earned safety. This is how he has become YOUR trophy of a lifetime.
As you and your guide look upon him thru magnification, you judge he is truely magnificent. But there is no aproach.You will have to wait him out, hope to make the right stalk or just have to wait till tommorrow. But wait. You pull out your range finder. He is 495 yards. With your balistic table in your head you quickly access your hold.Resting your weapon on your packs. wedging it in where its steady, You even dry fire a shot, to practice. The click of the firing pin seems deafening in the wilderness silence. But at 500 yards Old long beard hears nothing.
So YOu chamber a round, and breath out slowly, pressing with the tip of your finger, the rifle suprises you as it goes of, a clean shot, And within a instant you have degraded a cunning advisary to nothing more than a long range target.
Congrats on the trophy.
Welp, Its seems you guys are correct. You are elites . Marksmen well practiced and deadly .You CAN shoot 500 plus yards so you SHOULD.
Heck its legal so its OK.
That should be what we live our lives by. Just like lawyers!!!
All this boils down to is technology expanding the range of killing. Making it easier to kill. Dont bother with your expert shooting stuff, pulling the trigger can be mastered at the range. getting within the safety zone of a game animal or stalking as you call it ,takes practice in the feild,I am talking about the zone which he can smell ,hear, see and sense you. not 500 yards.I dont get how you continue to assume I cannot shoot. I have shot game way out there. I do not brag about it because I am not proud of it. I was wrong for taking the chance of wounding, I know that.
All things aside. What you are missing, Is it is not the anti nuts who will see this debate or your shooting and be upset and decide hunting is unfair. They beleive any killing is wrong and they are fruitier than my kids breakfast cereal.
But Joe and Jane public, who happen to turn on the outdoor channel and see this sniping of game that are oblivious to being pursued as unsporting, unfair and unethical. And those my friend are who will take your hunting rights away. With out the mainstream vote the peta groups are ineffective .
To quote capstick. He is speaking of elephant but he is also speaking of the self imposed rules of the hunt.Which some of us put upon ourselves. He says.
"So it is with elephants. Or lions. Or brown trout on the dry fly. Just as a man man indeed slaughter an elephant from a safe distance,he may also HUNT a particular one under a code of rules that is part of the same ethic that forbids passing signals to a partner at bridge, shooting sitting ducks or using night crawlers in a fly-only trout stream." What he is speaking of is putting his life on the line, Not mearly obtaining the TROPHY of a lifetime.
In closing i surrender. You win. All this debate is unhealthy. Im going hunting.

Nice story Safari. Lets say you were stalking in and suddenly he sniffs you, rats that slight breeze gave you away! He jumps up and looks right a you! You can see the full curl a full 6 inchs past the eyes. He turns and all you got for a target ia a big ass and only 200 yards. Tell you what about 90 % of you stalkers would shoot an animal on the move, pretty well the stupidous thing you could do.You want to talk about wounding, this is how most of the animals get wounded that off hand quick shot on the spur of the moment (desperation). Don't tell me you wouldn't shoot. It is sure thing, just as you look at your toilet before you flush. A long shot with a stationary target is better than the scenario I have just depicted. This debate is healthy and we should throw all the cards on the table.

I agree with you. In the 60's was a good article in one of the hunting magazine about Fred Huntington (RCBS) new 1000yd elk rifle 30-338mag which lead me to the 30-338mag. About 15 yrs ago Dan Lilja (Lilja Barrels) did some articles for PS magazine about LR elk rifles interesting part was barrels/bullets/caliber and scopes.

I'm almost 65 so I started to watch a change starting in the 80's as to bullets and barrels for us early LR hunters(500Yds) which was good. I have nothing against someone who want to only shoot a max 250yds or hunt the dark timber for elk which I consider those guys to be a breed apart which I admire. My first LR rifle I had build in the mid 60's was a 7mag have we come a long ways.

WyoWhisper, I haven't always agreed with you when you posted on the other site but I like your rifles and the article in 6br about them. I guess you and Allen Day moved over here about the same time. Well good luck

Now that's a sportsman. Sorta like catch and release. Is that a 30-378 acumark popping up there. It's nice to see sportsman like you around. When you get older you get wiser. Respect always your elders. Trouble is it's harder to find one nowadays. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't think there's any question that equipment has improved greatly. What hasn't changed is wind. And from 600 yards and beyond the wind becomes more then a major problem. At a 1000 yards a small breeze becomes a major factor throwing the bullet off by feet.. At 1500 yards,you haven't got a [bleep] clue where the bullet is going to hit. But then again who cares because you aren't taking a bullet.

As for arse shots on game at close range. If you use enough bullet the outcome of an arse shot is more certain then any shot taken beyond 500 yards.

The arse shot is a deadly one. You betcha but I was suggesting he was on the run at the time of the arse showing. The shot taken while an animal is on the run is the foolish one referred too. They sometimes bounce sideways suddenly and you really shouldn't be shooting at game on the run. I agree it is just as foolish as shooting a mile away.

Well said! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

378, It does no good to support your side of the debate by trying to assume what I or others who shoot close would do.
Just because some slob would attempt a 200 yard texas heart shot at running game does not make long range shooting (AT GAME ) acceptable.
Sorry , but no I would not attempt a moving tail shot.

And The Capstick quote is from Death in the long grass. In his introduction. Sorry not to credit that.

anyone that cannot read the wind within 1mph at 600 and be able to tell what its going to do the whole time, does not nearly have enough practice to be thinking like a 600 yard shot. It takes work but 600 is very readable. Granted 1000 becomes a bit trickier and that I've not shot many times at 1500 and beyond yet, so don't really have a good grasp on it. Though I will say that I've never been off much more than about 2-4 feet at 1500-1600 yards. The problems compound as you get further out. Group size becomes an issue, as does time of flight, and the nuances of differing layers of wind, plus the fact of the arc of the bullet taking itself up pretty high into winds that maybe layered into things not visible at that height off the ground....

500 is still a chip shot for a capable shooter.

Jeff

Great post Jeff, you said it all right there. Life everything else in life, LR shooting included "stay within your abilities" If this is done nobody, not nobody has any right complaining about anyone.
Those who say "there's a chance something will go wrong" Well thats BS, anytime you push the safety off something can go wrong. Those of us who shoot LR know that our equipment is thouroughly tested and we practice more than anyone else so who has the most chance of something going wrong?
are more deer wounded at less than 200 yards than beyond 500? You know that there is.
The actualy hunting bit, I'm not buying it, The ridge that I hunted over last year would have been much simpler to put a treestand up and take 50-60 yard shots, but I chose not to, not a challenge there, if you know how to deer hunt or whatever, both of the tactics discussed here are sporting, hell anyone who knows and understands the game they seek can place themselves within the magical 100 yd range. So do you place yourself in position to get the 50 yd pretty sunday shot so you can come on to people who prefer another method and start the "holier than thou" routine, or to you put your skills and abilities with a rifle, your knoledge of ballistics, your days of practice to use? Who made it they're priority to ? my ethics? Do I ? they'res?
Oh and the capstick bit was awe inspiring, till I remembered he used to either pick off babboons at 400-500 yds with his 375 H&H or mow them down with a mac 10 submachine gun.
So is he a hunter? or a shooter?
RR

Roper,

No sweat we all have our differences... Al least we are able to co- habitat here.... ;-)



Sledder,

Holy crap... are you serious?!? Yeah, you really showing you colors now. Just get is close with the earsplittenloudenboomer, it'll kill it...
Me personally 1500 is pretty crazy. All my pokes that far were at PD's
Anything for me inside of 800 yards is pretty much table fare. Now as far as an arse shot on something. I'll bet just about anything that my success rate is hands a feet above some lead slingers who's shooting them up the poop chute. What if you're off by a mere 3" hit a hip bone bullet deflects out instead of in.

At 800 if I'm of by 3" my shot is still a double lung.


Jeff,

+1

This is an interesting subject which I have debated on other forums and here is my answer. IF a person can make a 1000yd shot with confidence that he will kill the intended target with 1 shot then he should take the shot. Anyone who has doubts about their ability to make the shot should stick to closer shots. I have made many long range kills. I prefer them, for me it is the challenge of shot placement not just in the vitals but in that little light or dark spot just below the ear or behind the shoulder and so on. Having the confidence in your equipment and yourself is paramount to long range shooting and that comes with practice.

Off by 3"....if you are able to consistantly (lets say 90% for grins) throw them in a 6" diameter ring at 800 yards with "in the field" conditions, I'm impressed. Nice shooting sir.
This being the case, I say by all means let'er fly at 800 yards if that is what trips your trigger.

Anyone see the new LR prone targets for F class? Thats a scoped gun prone, front rest allowed? I don't know the dimensions for sure, but they are small. In F class or any target game if you were allowed unlimited time, you could make all shots inside the Xring. Which is a tight group for sure. Thats where the hunting or shooting at game part comes in, we are allowed to take the shot when all is right. Which means that each shot is a "pinwheel X" when released.

Jeff

It is interesting that none of you long range shooters have made a point of why you should shoot so far. Other than you can and its legal.
You state it is more challenging? To emphasize the shot on a live animal as the basis of the challenge or sport is ridiculous. If the possibility of a miss is sporting or challenge I have been taught wrong! I was under the impression you should not shoot unless you are certian . If you consider getting within 500 yards of game a challenge, I am confused, as it is easily posible to walk in open veiw of game within that range. Even drive a vehicle. Yet you chastise one for shooting moving game, Your reasoning of the possibility of a miss being sport, would lend itself entirely to shooting only moving game as a sport or challenge.
If you want a shooting challenge, why not try a 30 yard shot on a charging bear? Or limit your weapon to open sights, etc...
So It goes that a 800 yard shot is a gimmi? easy table fare? what next, farther. Or possibly of hand, maybe you could miss that way and it would be more sporting?
Sorry your bucket dont hold water!
And would you stop with the bs about more game being wounded close, It is unsupported dribble. Heck more left hand shooters wound game! (I have no Idea, but same bs).
Long range shooting is nothing more than a way to kill more game with less hunting.( time spent getting close to game).
Im tired of arguing with you guys, Have fun. Heck its legal. Laws are funny things. Just ask OJ.

That is why I hunt - to "have fun".

This should get the fur flying
http://media.putfile.com/buck-0001

oh yeah, walking in and putting a treestand over a game trail and taking a 30 yard shot makes you better, that right?
With good equipment that you have conficance in 500-600 is a gimme.


You state it is more challenging? To emphasize the shot on a live animal as the basis of the challenge or sport is ridiculous.


what is the challenge to you? freshening the corn pile?
If you want a shooting challenge, why not try a 30 yard shot on a charging bear? Or limit your weapon to open sights, etc...


been there done that, actualy had the bear by the scruff of the neck in one hand, pistol in the other when I fired the last shot.


Sorry your bucket dont hold water.


yours neither whatever is in yours is BROWN


And would you stop with the bs about more game being wounded close, It is unsupported dribble. Heck more left hand shooters wound game! (I have no Idea, but same bs).


That is fact, for one thing there are hundreds of thousands more deer shot at 200 and less than at 500, and a much higher percentage of those shots are made by less effective marksmen.


Long range shooting is nothing more than a way to kill more game with less hunting.( time spent getting close to game).


I spend way, way more time conditioning myself, looking for places to shoot, and making my equipment the best I can make it than most hunters ever dream of so peddle your snake oil somewhere else, you don't wanna hear about our successes and methods, there's a little "x" in the upper right hand corner of your screen.
RR

Safari hound. I see good arguements on both sides. I'm somewhat of a fence sitter if I may. I'm wondering about what long shots are nowaday? A long shot 20 years ago was 400 yards, now I see fellas calling 1000 yards a long shot. I see the discussion see/sawing back and fourth. A long shot for me is 500 yards and for others it's 1000 yards. Each to his own skills based on his equipment. This will be a never-ending story. Until someone comes fourth and mediates the confusion on what distances are we talking about. Is below 300 yards Short Range. 300-600 yards mid range and onward long range? Can this be ever nailed down?

Cacciatori,

see my article on my shooting ability.. from a bi-pod in field conditions...

10 shot group at 1013 yards

Safari Hound first this is not an argument, it is a debate. Second every center fire rifle made today is capable of hit and killing an animal at 1000 yds. the only limitations is the shooter. I do not say what you consider hunting is wrong because I choose not to hunt that way, it is your way and that is fine. I choose to hunt from long range because I can shoot at 1000 yds. I have consistantly taken animals at that distance and will continue to do so until age forces me closer. Don't get me wrong if I have a shot closer I will take it as well but I am not limited to a 100yd shot.

I cannot speak for the others here but I am not the type of hunter that grabs his shotgun the day before season and puts around thru it @50yds and says that is great lets go. I practice with my rifle 3 to 4 times a week and more if possible. I also reload my own ammunition I weigh every bullet and every powder load so I know within a very small margin where my bullet is going to hit. Along with those preparations I also scout areas, setup treestands and all the other things that you short range hunter do.
So summing up just because you cannot shoot at my range doesn't mean I should be limited to your range.

some of the Sr hunters are confusing what is stalking and hunting. Stalking is part of hunting. WE all don't look for the longest shot possible but we are prepared for the long shot should it arise.

WyoWhisper That is some fine shooting sir!

FWIW, on the issue of what its called, my sport, highpower service rifle shooting is called midrange to 600 yards. 200 yard only matches, same as 300 yarders are reduced courses. Then listed from 600-1000 yards is considered long range. Again, only FWIW.

Jeff

Side note: My grandfather considered anything over 50yd as long range, and shots past 100yd to be grounds for a beating (he died in 1940). My father considered shots over 100yd to be long range, and anyone attempting shots over 300yd to be stupid (1907-1969). I, personaly, prefer to stay inside of 250, but I'm prepaired to go 440yd IF the conditions are right.

Now, to be fair to my ancestors, gramps was using a 32-20, and dad had stepped up to the 30-30. Now me, I'm dottering along with the plain old 30-06.

Times change, equipment gets better, and some people are willing to hone their skills to a razors edge. I have no issue with any of it, as long as everyone stays inside of their confidence zone.

Hi Ric,

Thanks for the article - it all falls into place now. With a truly wonderful landscape like that, I can see that approaching to anything less than half a mile will mean a lot of leopard crawling! This also explains why custom rifles are built to undertake such tasks. My Sako will "only" hold sub-2" up to 300m, not 500. I might as well sell that POS now and commission a new rifle from your buddy! However, I think that your rifle would look a lot nicer with my Swarovski 6-24x50 on top. Who knows, with that combo, may be I could even hit rocks at 1K?

Serious question though. Are you actually permitted to use match bullets on game in the US? Over here, we would be crucified for that, as the 1991 Deer Act prohibits all non-expanding projectiles. In which case, how do they perform?

Thanks and regards,

Jacobite

Unfortunately yes. For instance Wyoming regulations state no full metal jacket bullets or expanding bullets.

Match bullets can fall into either category pending on what day of the week it is. They might come apart or go through like an FMJ. One in a great while they act like substandard expanding bullets at best.

This however does not hault their use by some "long range hunters". They need the super high BC to maintain super sonic speeds for game in the next area code regardless what the end result of bullet performance is.
I have "seen" shots with 300 gr 338 bullets that go completely though an animal at 1000 plus yards without any expansion at all! Game was found afterwards. Yet to some this constitutes a successful hunt.

Disclaimer--not all hunters act like above. Just the problematical ones.

Jacobite:

here is an idea of how the Sierra Matchking (MIDDLE MANGLED BULLETS) acts on impact from 1800-2600 fps on wet news print.

Wyo,
That is definitely some impressive stuff and an art.
As I said before, I don't want to take anything away from true marksmen. If I had the equipment and developed loads and could shoot like you fellas and gals, I would want to stretch my range as well.

I have a question with a hypothetical situation......

A dandy whitetail out at 800 yards is slowely grazing through a meadow with a moderate wind or even gusty......a bit up hill or down (whichever you prefer). A person spots him and lays down with equipment to measure wind and range, bipod, custom rifle, etc. Assuming that deer isn't going to stand there for an hour and/or give the person a practice shot. What percentage of Long Range hunters will hit that deer in the boilermaker only given one shot?

I am not saying I doubt anyones shooting ability or actually looking for a number. This is just a question out of curiosity.
If I were a betting man, I would bet that there are very very few shooters (that would attempt this) that would run that first bullet through the bread basket. I could be wrong and you may be one of those few that would pull off that spectacular shot. Again just curious.

I think what makes me curious about this is that I sometimes read how someone shot a record group at 1000 yards, but then I see that center of that group is about a foot away from the center of the target. One could run an entire box of bullets threw the same hole, but if that hole is a foot from the aim point, it doesn't much matter when it is a dandy whitetail standing out there......he is either missed or wounded.
I may be off base, but I am just trying to better understand. 5 almost perfectly consistant mistakes don't get you record in the field.

Again, I am impressed on your article. It is something to be proud of and something I doubt I will ever do. I am just trying to better understand how it transfers over to a game animal.

Thank you all for input and teaching me something.

Very nice dude! You in Cody?

Jacobite:

Here is an idea of how the Sierra Matchking (LEFT NICELY MUSHROOMED BULLET) acts on impact with a North American moose at about 2300 fps.

Cacc

Sounds like a setup to me....But I'll bite. Personally a moderate to gusty wind and I'm out on an 800 yard shot.

Groups you see at 1000 are WAY different than at 800 or under. In fact there is a large difference for each 100 yards the further out you get.

What you see on groups that are small but a foot off are at least 1000 yards, have a certain short time limit in which to be fired and you just have to make do.

Reverse that to a game shot, you have all the time in the world and if it walks off, so be it. You can work and adapt it and get the first shot right or know that it has to be passed.

Sometimes we get mixed up with those that specifically seek out all long range shots. And thats fine with me. I happen to know where my limits currently are and abide by them.

As mentioned through this whole thread, not that I really care as I'm always 150% sure before I shoot, the true slobs are short range shooters and always will be by default. Until you force folks to qualify on a target before getting a license this will not change. And even if taht law would come(I'd totally endorse the heck out of it, even though the parameters would probably be such that most LR shooters could make it on their heads on the wrong hand, blind folded...and probably a fair amount would never pass it....) it still won't make it illegal to take a shot less than 100%. Thats up to each individual.

How one can predict that any shot is moer or less dangerous than another, up to a point, is beyond me. I've seen alert deer bound and run instantly taht would result in bad hits or misses from well inside 100, have seen non alert deer do it too. One can only do the very best they can, within their capabilities and self imposed limits. They have to live with the results of their actions(my only loss being a shot under 70 yards at what I thought was a wide open deer, only to expand a bullet on a vine I never saw and hit the deer with frags only, breaking a lower leg only.... ask me how-- wife and I trailed it for over 5 hours never getting a clear shot to finish it, very evident about the hit though- and even that one I dnot' think the deer ever died...) I know its tough to loose one. Hope it never happens again.

Personally I suspect my ethics of what it takes to shoot, are far above and beyond the majority of other hunters.

Regardless of if anyone thinks its hunting or shooting.

Jeff

Rost495. If you wanted to buy a long range varmint (coyote) gun what would you recommend? What caliber? Heavy barrel or noodle? We have an infestation of coyotes here in my area and not long ago a kid got his lunch stole while waiting for the bus, by a bold coyote. You seem to have a good selection of rifles. I have some good rifles but they don't have the accuracy required for long range shooting.I see on other threads that the 80 grain is popular for coyotes.

Hi Dave and POP,

Thanks for posting the pics. Hmmm...not a lot of linearity in the results, I would say. OK, paper media is not flesh, so is there corruption in the result? Possibly, but the degree of aberration would be too much for me to entertain, let alone illegal hereabouts. At the end of the day, it is all about kinetic energy; if V-squared is high enough, any material can be frangible - how else does an APFSDS tungsten dart kill tank crews?

Still, if it's OK with you guys, I'm happy to "slob" about at sub-300m. I'd never take a shot at running game, unless shooting battue, always check my target, backdrop, wind and sight-line before mounting the rifle, use top-quality optics to verify the target and thus far, have never lost one (about 700 deer to date, I think) - touch wood. Also, as Jeff stated, we have a professional training scheme in most European countries; I have both the German Jagdschein and British DSC2 qualifications. I, too, think it would be an excellent programme for the US and would help expand the credibilty gap between genuine conservationist hunters and the antis, in particular. Live and let live, says I. If I come out West, I would love to have a go with one of those LR rigs. However, if you want to walk my woods and fields, get ready to belly-crawl and work for it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have a great weekend and thanks for all your thoughts and contributions. Tomorrow is our last day for pheasants and duck, so both my black lab and I will be in the field - only the third time this week! I really should get some more trigger time...

Regards,

J

Rost495....No setup intended.
I give you credit for passing on that shot.
I wonder if you are in the minority or majority there.

Also, I understand that a lot changes from 800 to 1000....but I don't think that it brings those shots back onto a paper plate.

I've done real well at staying out of this but time to say something. Rost is probally in the minority. I believe that the majority of long range shots are taken by people that are not up to the task.

Don,
I doubt if most people who are supporting LR hunting would disagree with you.
The majority of LR hunting I have seen has been in Colorado on the plains antelope hunting or in the mountains elk/deer. The things that have disgusted me is the "hail mary" shooting, and it seems to be worse in groups (at least what I have witnessed). You may not have been talking about this kind of shooting but these guys just keep elevating/kentucky windage until they get close or if they are lucky get a hit somewhere. A hunter my partner and I visited with a man this past November who uses a semi-auto rifle with this very purpose in mind.
Get a hit anywhere then just keep pumping lead. He also considered himself a LR hunter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Earlier that day we witnessed a doe muley that was killed by a couple of guys (range 350-400 yards). All I can say that there was a lot of shots (more than 6). We had glassed and ranged some of the area earlier and were in the midst of making a stalk. We could have shot from where they were, but they were shooting from the road or just off of it.
I have never shot a big game animal beyond 700 yards myself, but some of those who have consistently do it, will intentionally use a spotter shot 25 yards or so to the right or left of the animal or even above it to confirm the dope. If correction is needed it is made and then one shot is made on the animal.
You may disagree with the style and you may not call it hunting, but can you give credit to these guys who are serious about it that they want that animal to be killed cleanly with a lethal shot on the first shot?
Also, not everyone who uses SMK's, say any and every SMK is suitable for game. I have used SMK's twice on deer to date with good results (1-shot kills) and one A-Max with the same results. Berger even considers some of their bullets suitable for hunting.
IMO there will be what has been called "slob hunters" who sling lead at both short and long ranges and everything in between.
Although I have not done it yet myself, I am not opposed to making a "spotting shot" to confirm my dope is correct. If the animal runs and I lose the opportunity-so be it. The guys I am familiar with want a lethal connection on the first shot, not just a hit somewhere.
There will always be people who will pull the trigger hoping to get lucky at all ranges.
I also believe it happens more often at shorter ranges, because many hunting areas (terrain) do not even allow for longer distances and many hunters who would be willing to take a snap shot at a deer know they don't even have a prayer at a deer at 500-700 yards. But since they think they have a chance a deer at closer ranges they will attempt it.
I think there is more people attempting LR hunting because of the technology, but that alone does not mean they have any business doing it.

378
Due to what I shoot and familiar with, a fast twist 22-250 AI that can drive something like a 70-90 grain projectile.
What that wont cover, and the wind does become an issue out further, then 6mm 06 or something in a 25 caliber.

I'm actually fortunate that I generally cannot have a shot at a yote past 300 where I'm at so my long barrled 223 upper on the AR gets almost all my work.

Thin barrels are as good as heavy, its all dependant on how many rounds you will shoot, how you travel and so on. For a multi round gun, a bit heavier. For coyotes you often don't have multi shots, and for a walking gun I'd just stick with a normal or light contour tube. Much different than a PD situation.

True long range in windy conditions I"d be really keen about thinking 257 wtby or 257 stw area. In a nice light gun(super light backpack type guns are tough to learn to shoot correctly but very accurate) that would double as a prairie goat gun and the like.

Maybe I"m in the minority like the others say, of course I think I"m in the majority but thats probably due to the company I keep. And I may purposely have blinders on not wanting to see the slobs. Though those barrage shooters.... heck I suspect, and may be wrong, that those types of shooters wouldn't even be lucky enough to wound and animal much less get close and tend to even discount those shooters...

BTW on the spot shooting, BTDT, lost out a few times but the few times I"ve had shots over 1000 I"ve also not been totally comfortable with the shot at all. Thats 2 times. Both would have been instant kills had I not shot the spotter. Both times the animal walked off and would walk and stop. Not the shot I was looking for....
As mentioned RE the paper issue, given enough time, those groups will be centered. ITs the fact that you cannot govern conditions or when the allotted time starts. So you have to shoot the paper even if you wouldn't shoot an animal. I"m much more lucky as my sport allows 1 minute per shot, sometimes more and from 10-22 shots for a match. I don't shoot slowly, but often will allow up to half the time to elapse to get to a favorable condition to me to be able to start center and finish center.

My longest shot, well it would have never been taken on the early days of the hunt due to the winds. Just got lucky on having ideal shooting conditions when it was demanded. Of course earlier days I had shots at 300 and under but on animals I did not want.

Jeff

Jeff

Thanks for the tips. I have dies for a 22-250 and rifle. It's an old bugger like me and not so accurate. I think the barrel is worn on it and the bolt is sloppy. I know I can't make long shots with it so I don't even try. A fella from out east traded to me for some money so he could get back home. I'll look around for a high end rifle in this caliber. The don't cost much to reload and can knock them down along way. Thanks.

378

Why don't you look at the option of having your existing action accurized and get a new high quality barrel put on by a really good gunsmith. If the action you have is a good action you can probably come out ahead with a better shooting gun than buying new.

BB has the best suggestion on the issue I've seen!! But I did recall you didn't like rebarreling, choosing to shoot with all factory stuff for some reason IIRC.
Jeff

xphunter,

That is just what I'm talking about. I am opposed to the idea of it but I understand some guy's can. I have been in this type discussion enough times that for me, it's just best to stay out. As I read back thru these posts, I find one guy I believe certainly can do this, two or three maybe's and a few that certainly like to support it and talk of it but are obviously not capabile! If we assume that the few I concider maybe's are truely good, then that leaves a few talking trash that are being associated with those that can, like it or not. One guy in particular is talking trash and none of the maybe's or the can do, have said one word.

Now I'm going to back out. I told the one guy I think can I'd stay out and here I've broken that promise.

Rost495 you forget where I live. Remember Beverly Hillbillies(Jed Clampett). Even if i wanted to rebarrel I wouldn't find anyone in Canada with the skills and tools required. I would have to send it to the USA and ever since 9-11 the door is pretty well shut. It would be cheaper for me to buy a new gun to dick around with that old gun. One of your country man had a good statement "putting candles in a pile of shiit don't make it a birthday cake". I like that line. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

378
Ain't that a shame? I'm curious how your palma shooters rebarrel. Gotta be some method without much hassle, one would think? As many tubes as they burn through anyway.

But would not surprise me either, if so thats a shame. Beautiful country, way too many taxes and gov rules. Your pistol rules aggravate me, you can no longer pass your guns on to the kids without a hassle etc...... Relative had a sweet 270 that I might have gotten years back.... no dice now...

I always assume and you know where that leaves ya..... I often take for granted that I pack a 45 on my hip every day without issue. Can own Class 3 guns. Don't have to keep my pistols locked up. Can kick open the door and shoot to my hearts content.

Jeff

Yeah there is a few places that do work on rifles but they are far and few between and very pricey. Most guys send their rifles to the USA to have work done on them or just order it already done. I know a few fellas that shoot tournaments and they have ordered their rifles ready to shoot just add bullets. I have built bullets for these guys because some reload but not many do anymore. Between playing golf and chasing rug rats and wine/dining wife they don't have much spare time. My youngest daughter is 30 years old so I have more time on my hands. As for gun regulations, well that's another thread. One is ongoing under Canada title in this forum. Have agreat day in your FREE country.

Actually wet newsmedia is about the best or at least one of the best tisuue simulators out there.

Either way this is my philosophy and we have been through this before.

Why on God's green earth would one want to use match bullets to accomplish a task that these bullets were not designed for, and against the manufacturer's recommendations? Is it possible that the people who use them for game know better than say ...Sierra huh?

With so many awesome bullets out there designed to kill why would one chance it?

OTOH, and I"m not advocating it, finding multiple uses for something is not a negative. Though I"m with you on match bullets. Do not have the guts to try it again, having seen some disimilar results a number of years back. Enough so that I'm afraid if they do start to really expand it'll be like a ballistic tip bullet and I stay as far away from those as I can.

Jeff

Its simple,match bullets often offer better consistancy in weight. Not to mention they slightly help defy gravity and wind. None of which has anything to do with big game performance. Which is fairly consistant,since long range shooting doesn't have anything to do with hunting big game.

Sledder
I agree. Using a rifle for any game harvest certainly isn't hunting. Its just shooting. The closer you get the more shooting it is.

Just a little correction Bushcraft. Hunting as described by the Webster dictionary "Seeking game". As soon as you go out the door of your house with rifle in hand you are actually hunting by definition. There are fellas that can knock them down effectively at long range and there are morons that can't hit a School bus at 100 yards. The hunters that are true sportsman - know what they can and can't do, they don't intentionally wound.

There is also the fact that most people still have to get out in the woods which involves all the hunting skills to get in to position to make the long shot, in other words if you go into the woods up wind of an animal I don't care how far away it is you will not see it, let alone get a shot. So yes it is hunting.

You should try getting out a little more ther angel. The majority of elk and deer could give a [bleep] about a human thats over 500 yards away. And then the ones that do,have usually been fired on a couple dozen times prior.

Deer here are not shot at much. IE I might shoot one a year. They travel all over, unexpected and they are up and down my range so I know what distances are. I know for sure at 400-450 where they cross if the wind is wrong they know you are there. For sure.

Sledder,

so what makes you think they care what bullet hits them then?

Animals react poorly to bullets. Match bullets are constructed very similar and in some cases better than the "hunting" bullets...

still gonna keep hiding behind that keyboard or are ya gonna tell me who ya are...
we can even meet at the complex and throw some lead at the 550 yard steel plate

Thanks for the offer there ricky. You and Porter should go together. You could baffle each other with bullshIt and maybe even fire a few rounds.

Well ricky animals don't care what bullet hits them. You the hunter should care about what bullet you're using and use a hunting bullet. Not some match bullet designed for punching a sheet of paper.

Yes ricky match bullets are similar to hunting bullets in that they are made out of copper and lead and travel down the barrel when fired.. A honda accord is similar to a ford Super Duty also. In that it has a wheel in each corner and a steering wheel. Are you going to pull a six place horse trailer with an accord.

sledder my answer to your whining my freezer is full of venison, I get in the woods as often as I need to and, as far as the quote in this post goes my answer is, I guess they better start giving a [bleep]!

Match grade bullets are better for hunting because they are inherently more accurate do to the fact that they are more carefully weighed and use higher tolerances than a plain hunting round. Other than what I just wrote a .224 DIA. HP is no different than a .224 DIA. MG. Hp. So better grade of ammo does not mean that it isn't a hunting round.

sledder,

Tell that to Walt Berger! I shoot VLD's

WyoWhisper,

Come on down and sling a few at the 600 yd target with me! We even have some 800 yd targets to shoot!

RE match bullets. Buddy went with me this weekend. Owner insisted he should shoot a doe too, was just along for the 500+ mile round trip for the ride basically. He shot a doe early on, about 125 yards or so, rib shot, coming out the front shoulder. Ran a bit as most deer usually do. About a 100 pound dressed doe. Was loaned a rifle, 308 PSS. Bullet went in, took the heart, exit about silver dollar sized. Great performance. Then back at camp I noticed the box of ammo. Fed gold metal match, 168 bthp. Nice performance for sure. Second animal I've seen go down with same. Owner is an ex highpower shooter. Many deer have gone down to this 308 in south TX and its all he uses anymore. FWIW.

Me, I stuck to 640 grain projectile and 2 of the 6mm 85tsx which did their usual bang up job. Not impressed with the 50 ball round though.

Jeff

Are you shooting the 50BMG now Rost?

Have a play toy..... notice distances shot... nothing even close to long, though I'd have stretched it if I had too...
Jeff

Elkhunter,
Are you in Cody?

Sledder,

My name "ricky" as you put it, yeah, kids name and one my Grandmother used to call me ( rest her soul ). However, you are the one who's acting as a child. Kinda what they call a "keyboard rambo" or something like that. Easy to hide behind the 'puter, but too much a pussy to actually identify yourself.
Easy to see you're like so many older people who refuse to believe there is any better way to do anything, other than your way.
Your analogy doesn't hold water as bullets arn't pulling anything. However if you drive each vehicle into a brick wall both will punch a hole in it and make it crumble.
It's ok though I didn't expect anything logical from you.

John, he's a good guy, builds a nice rifle and I have launched lead with him a few times at the Complex. Hell he's even shot a rifle or 2 of mine at the plates out to 1145 yards.
Once again, I am one step ahead of you.
Keep trying there buddy. You need to really read up and bring yourself up to speed if you gonna stay in this debate. Your knowledge of LRH and what you think you know is severely outdated. Better turn on your PC earlier and do some more research. The day starts be for Regis and Kelly ya know...

Oh yeah, forgot all about the wind issue. Was out in a field that had 800 yards access and a "trail" about 500-600 out there, were 100 yard power poles down to a well to verify my rangefinder... Deer crossed basically all morning at the 560 yard distance, and each one stopped and sniffed the air hard when directly downwind. Did not spook, but twas the only time they all sniffed...

From what I understand match bullets do not have impact performance of your average hunting bullet. (Correct me if I am wrong since I have never personally shot an animal with a match bullet)

Would a better analogy be shooting my field tips out of my bow instead of broadheads? I am much more accurate with field tips no matter the range, but broadheads of a required diameter are used to do damage as they pass into/through the animal.
I am quite certain that if I shot a deer in the heart with a field tip it would be fatal, but yet broadheads are required.

If you do not agree with this analogy, I will be more than happy to listen to a reasonable response.

I do not want to get into any of the pissin' matches. I am just once again trying to expand my knowledge.

Cacciatore

"From what I understand match bullets do not have impact performance of your average hunting bullet. "

"Would a better analogy be shooting my field tips out of my bow instead of broadheads?"


The analogy you offer would be considerably incorrect in my opinion.

The below picture contains an image of a recovered Match Bullet alongside an unfired version of that same bullet.

If your field-tip arrow could somehow transform into a broadhead while passing through the animal the analogy could be correct.

It's that expansion is not a design requirment, is why match bullets are "legal" in warfare (sniping).
It's not that they don't expand well, just simply that expansion is not a design requirment.
IIRC the core is actualy softer, IE pure lead vs a alloy, so they actualy tend to expand more (than a "hunting" bullet) at a given velocity or to expand as much at a lower velocity (2 ways of saying the same thing)

DaveKing,
Fair enough. I guess I misunderstood the post a few before you showed this picture earlier. It seemed that POP was showing the matchkings all tore up from impact.
I have no problem with you all using them if you feel confident in them. From the pic that you showed, it does the job...but there is an inconsistency between your pic and POP's. I don't know if I am 100% confident in newsprint, but I think it is a close as you can get without getting bloody.
In my opinion, if it aint broke don't fix it, but if there is a concern of a failure, then all efforts should be taken to prevent it.
Keep knockin' em down.

Cacciatore,

Think about all the bullets launched and impacted on all the game animals in just this past year alone. You WILL find that just about every bullet performed as expected and every bullet failed.

Seriously, think about it. POP showed one pic of one bullet failing. Does that mean they all have? Dave show one pic of one bullet performing as intended, does that mean they all did that?

obviously, No.

However, there have been thousands of SMK's used and in my personal experience with them none have failed and we never lost an animal. On the flip side I have seen AB's and BT's fail miserably. However, I would still use them if that was the most accurate bullet from my rifle. Just because a bullet fails one time does not mean that is the standard.

SMK's have been proven to work and work well, just as well as any "hunting" bullet manufactured.

Wyowhisper along with what you said good shot placement in some of the failures may have cause them not to and the same can be true of the opposite. With any bullet shot placement is critical as you know. Literally any bullet can kill an animal when placed correctly, while I don't condone it a person shooting a .22 long rifle could kill a deer at 100yds by shooting it in the head.

My preference of Match Grade bullets comes from reloading them, their weights are nominally the same which makes the reloads more accurate than hunting rounds with standard bullets. this is not merely a boast as I have compared them (MG) to standard grade bullets of the same weight using the same powders, primers and brass. Summing up if a bullet is inherently more accurate and with all else being constant they perform better.

Wyo, I can't say that I have experience shooting an animal with a match bullet.
I wasn't saying that the pictures shown were a perfect representation of the performance of all bullets.
I was just looking for an explanation.
I am on here to learn more about hunting and shooting (and hear a good story or two). I am not the type that believes to know all. I am the type that believes there is always more to learn and that there are always people out there know more than you.
I am just trying to learn something new, so I am asking questions.

If you guys say that you are confident with them, by all means continue to use them. Who am I to say what one can or cannot hunt with. That does not mean that I am going to run out and buy match bullets for hunting.

Because you're logical, you're sticking to hunting bullets!

Cacciatore as very few of us know eachother and therefore don't know whether or not to believe what we say here is some quotes that I found about match grade bullets which are readily available on line by. As I have only one axe to grind and that being to get the very best bullet I can for the most accurate shot possible on ANYTHING I point my weapon at.

Everything 2 Describes a match grade bullet as:

�A boat tail hollow point bullet is a match grade bullet design that uses the concept of a teardrop like shape to give it a lower drag coefficient and make it produce less turbulence in its wake. Only the base of the bullet has a boat tail like shape, the ogive is still pointed, it can also have an open tip for even better accuracy at long ranges.�
�Conventional bullet design usually make use of a flat or even concave base which creates turbulence and hence affects accuracy. The effect is not much really but when you are sniping at ranges of excess of 500 yards you need all the help you can get. �

Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition

MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition
DATE: 23 September 1985
1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.
2. Background.

Sierra MatchKing 168-grain match grade boat tail For more than a decade two bullets have been available for use by the United States Army Marksmanship Unit in match competition in its 7.62mm rifles. The M118 is a 173-grain match grade full metal jacket boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet, while the M852 is the Sierra MatchKing 168-grain match grade boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with an open tip. Although the accuracy of the M118 has been reasonably good, though at times erratic, independent bullet comparisons by the Army, Marine Corps, and National Guard marksmanship training units have established unequivocally the superior accuracy of the M852. Army tests noted a 36% improvement in accuracy with the M852 at 300 meters, and a 32% improvement at 600 yds; Marine Corps figures were twenty-eight percent accuracy improvement at 300 m, and 20% at 600yds. The National Guard determined that the M852 provided better bullet groups at 200 and 600 yards under all conditions than did the M118. [FNa1]

The 168-grain MatchKing was designed in the late 1950's for 300 m. shooting in international rifle matches. In its competitive debut, it was used by the 1st place winner at the 1959 Pan American Games. In the same caliber but in its various bullet lengths, the MatchKing has set a number of international records. To a range of 600 m., the superiority of the accuracy of the M852 cannot be matched, and led to the decision by U.S. military marksmanship training units to use the M852 in competition.

A 1980 opinion of this office concluded that use of the M852 in match competition would not violate law of war obligations of the United States. (citation omitted) Further tests and actual competition over the past decade have confirmed the superiority of the M852 over the M118 and other match grade bullets. For example, at the national matches held at Camp Perry, OH in 1983, a new Wimbledon record of 2--015 X's was set using the 168-gr. MatchKing. This level of performance lead to the question of whether the M852 could be used by military snipers in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

During the period in which this review was conducted, the 180-gr. MatchKing (for which there is no military designation) also was tested with a view to increased accuracy over the M852 at very long ranges. Because two bullet weights were under consideration, the term "MatchKing" will be used hereinafter to refer to the generic design rather than to a bullet of a particular weight. The fundamental question to be addressed by this review is whether an open-tip bullet of MatchKing design may be used in combat.
Berger Match VLD Field Testing Results
During the 2006 hunting season, Eric Stecker, Master Bulletsmith at Berger Bullets, is receiving regular feedback from hunters who are field testing the Berger Match VLD bullets. There is no better way to test how a bullet will perform on an animal than to put it through a real world hunting situation. That is exactly what Trevor Rosencranes did on a recent elk hunt. Trevor used a Berger 6mm 105 grain Match VLD to take an elk at a considerable distance. "I believe the Berger Match VLD used to harvest the elk performed exceptionally well. The bullet penetrated the chest cavity and had enough energy to decimate the lungs of the large animal. Berger's dedication to superior long range accuracy makes shots like mine possible." said Trevor Rosencranes, Cloud Peak Gun Works.

The VLD (Very Low Drag) design incorporates specific features that creates a bullet with a higher than normal BC. The primary design feature is a secant ogive. This sharp nose shape (secant ogive) allows the VLD to shoot flatter and be less affected by the wind. Berger also discovered that the secant ogive gives the VLD bullet the ability to penetrate from 1 to 3 inches in the animal before it starts to expand. The VLD�s delayed expansion allows it to open up deep inside the organs creating a devastating wound channel. This massive organ damage is too much for an animal to handle which leads to the animal dropping fast.

Thank you for the info.
Have you heard of anyone hitting the front shoulder blade of an elk or large game animal with one?
Do you think it will break up immediately or punch through and maintain its penetration?

Match bullets continue to get snagged on hype. Just because they are HP design basically. Note that Sierra lists other HP bullets capable of game shots.

In many years of shooting match bullets, sometimes loading upwards towards 20K a year with juniors involved, the one thing I"d be more scared of with the match bullet is it not opening, rather than it performing like a BT or true HP varmint style bullet.

Have not shot enough game with them to show you a moose or elk shoulder blade as I happen to choose another bullet for hunting for its better performance for ME. But I'd think of a match HP more as a soft point than an explosive or FMJ type projectile, and a much more consistently made one at that.

Jeff

To answer your questions first no I haven't heard and penetration of the should on an Elk or larger animal is certianly possible with a match grade bullet but, not the type of shot I would take regaurdless of bullet type on an animal of the sizes you are talking. You see along with using the best bullets etc I can I wait for the optimum shot and the one you mentioned would not be it. Having said all that I guess I should have added (depending on the cartridge you are using and the distance from the animal you are.)

Berger VLD are a whole different breed than Matchkings!

From their website:

The VLD bullets are proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. (Watch Demo Clip) The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate up to 3 inches before it starts to expand. This delayed expansion results in a wound channel that is deep inside the vital area of any big game. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 80% to 90% of its weight into the surrounding tissue traveling as deep as 18 inches. This results in a massive wound cavity that creates the greatest possible amount of tissue damage and hemraging within the vital area (organs). This massive and extensive wound cavity result in the animal dropping fast. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow but instead expend all of their energy right where it is most effective, inside the animal. Bullets that poke through so that they can cause a blood trail are designed to result in a hunter tracking a wounded animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a 30 minute video for $5 that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.





So unlike Sierra Matchking which Sierra (you know ... the people who design and make them) says you should NOT USE ON GAME, Bergers are in fact design to act also like a game bullet.

I personally do not like the design! I rather have full penetration and 80%-90% retention as opposed to 3 inch penetration and 80% - 90% of bullet consumption by the tissue. Nevertheless though, they are designed with game in mind also. The Matchkings are NOT!

POP I am curious, What animal on the American continent needs more than 3" of penetration to enter their body cavity and get to the vitals?

Dang near any of them depending on angle. Figure an average 150 pound whitetail deer in our country, to get through hair, hide, tissue,meat, ribs, and then into the vital cavity, that is over 1.5 inches right there. That takes into account part of one lung on a broadside shot.

Your plus is you can wait on shots. And thats fine. I often hunt with a 223 when thats the case.

When it needs to be done, you use a larger tool and better projectile. Last 2 does of last weekend were prime examples. I wanted the meat, and was running out of daylight on our last nite. Got on the 4 wheeler and road till we spotted some doe, crawled off, got in the brush and stalked them. In a hurry and as I got out into the open to get a clear shot(time is of the essence) both of them nailed me before I could settle for a shot. Was over 200 yards and both were at extreme angles. Thats where a good bullet came into play. One that killed but penetrated stem to stern at the same time.

Jeff

Ok but penetrating means just that IE punching a hole in the skin, rib and meat then hollow space then lung tissue hollow space etc etc.A .308 DIA. 168 Gr. Bullet with a MV 2700 ft/s a Ballistic Coefficent of .450 creating 2719 lbs/ft energy at the muzzle will do that at 1000yds. Note the numbers are from Hornady's 2007 Catalog and based on their 168 Gr. MG BTHP.

I agree on that issue, even saw the exact same round but fed gold medal do a job on a doe Sat AM. But I still prefer the reserve energy. The above is correct, but what about having to catch the flank on the way to the lungs. Did that once this year, had about 5 seconds to shoot or not. Good X bullet did the trick. Or the frontal angled to you where I have to bust a shoulder to get there? Did tha 2 times this weekend, excepting I was able to thread the needle easily and avoid the actual bones, but what if...

I'm with Pop on this one, you need the penetration at times, nice to have it in reserve.

Jeff

Rost495 I guess I am to pickie, I wouldn't take those shots atleast not thru the body. As I don't hunt antlers I would take a head shot. I should also mention I consider barnes tsx bullet in the MG class.

Pop,
Don't the "up to" and the "as deep as" concern you about this bullet on big game?
To me they mean that they were able to achieve these depths with a very small sample during tests.....we use the same crap at work.
So if my assumption is correct, that bullet would generally start losing that 80-90% of it weight much earlier than 3". If this is the case, it sure as heck isn't going 18" deep (which isn't a heck of a lot of penetration even on its best day).
Again, in my opinion from seeing the "up to 3"" and "as deep as 18"", it tells me that if I hit an adult bull elk rib (which is pretty tough), that this bullet is going to be in bits just a couple inches inside that animal. It may be enough to kill it anyway, but I don't get the warm and fuzzies from it.
I know you guys are remarkable marksmen and you can tell me that you avoid hitting the front shoulder, but don't tell me that you are able to consistently shoot between ribs.

I personally love finding my bullet just inside the hide on the far side or better yet a small entrance hole and a huge exit hole. My last elk had a big chunk of rib sticking out a large hole on the back side......to me that is a good bullet.

Arch

We aren't far off, I use head shots all the time. But my hunting time is very limited. Like my example. A rushed stalk, field position shot, over 200 yards, not able to take the time to calm enough to be 150% sure of a good head shot, so sometimes you take what you get. Thats why I prefer good bullets and horsepower in case its needed...

If I'm given time and options, I"ll often pass till I get a headshot. Doesn't always work. And if going out of state, I don't really want to drive 1000s of miles and take vacation, only to have to pass up a shot on an animal I want to take, regardless antlers or not.

The above doesn't mean I wont'use a match bullet, and have before, just not totally sure on them for length penetration, ribcage or head shots, no big deal.

Jeff

In all honesty probably none. Remember though I did said I prefer. As in what I like. Might not be the panacea just my preference. I like to err on the good side if possible.

Additionally as you know nothing always is the way it seems in the field. Your monster 6x6 300 lbs mule deer might look like to have the perfect stance at 300 yards, anod you might think your bullet will hit the deer totally perpendicular. If he , or you, ar of a couple of degrees this way or that way them 3 inches might not quite make it.


Moreover, I do not take Texas heart Shots but I have taken "raking" or "hard angle" shots on game. Were I not using an X a partition , accubond etc, I would not have had the luxury of tasting said trophy!

Yes they bug the heck out of me. Check out this group.

200 grain Accubond (.588 BC!) from a 300 RUM at MV of 3165 fps (95 gr Retumbo). This is a 300 yard group that measures .675". Yes 300 yards.



Most of my "long range" rigs shoot like this, or close to it with premiums! And this is what I do not understand.
1. How much tighter can this group get with match bullets? and even if it does get smaller does it really make a difference?

2. Are you willing to give up Accubond performace just to use a MK? Not me.

POP I see the issue are you shooting Winchester Ammo? I would not.

I never shoot factory ammo on game, or anything else for that matter (rimfire only). I always roll my own.
What prompted you to ask about Win ammo?

The Accubond isn't that Winchester?

Winchester does load them as factory (with red tips -combined Technology). Nosler makes the accubond. See here.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=193241

Ok. I also reload and have found that winchester bullets are lacking in uniformity, that being the least of the trouble I have with them.

the combined tech bullets are the exact same makeup as the nosler ballistic tips and accubonds with a black coating called luballoy.
RR

Yeah that is what surprises me that Amgel had a hard time with them...

When I got into reloading I decided that my reloads were going to be as close the perfect as I could make them, in doing so I started to buy bullets powder etc etc..... I weigh every load, every bullet and that is when I noticed the winchester 30 cal bullets I bought that were supposed to weigh 147 Gr. were weighing as little as 140GR. and as much as 152GR.. Infact in a box of 100 I could not find 20 that weighed the same, I called winchester about this and some phone genious said " so no one else is doing any better." Not true I said Hornady's bullets are within .10 of a grain throughout the box of 100. NOW COMES THE BEST PART... this dolt says "I guess you are just too picky for us" at which point I hung up!!!

wyowhisper,

Douglas, WY

Arch, the 147s??? Man give me a break... those are the worst of the worst to start out with. Sorry you started weighing those ones, you at least started at the bottom.

No one is within 0.10 of a grain all the time, but some are better than others.

I've weighed regular win, like PP and they are as close as any other hunting bullet.

FWIW I've shot differing weights of bullets at 600 in many matches doing testing. I've come to the conclusion its easy to clean a highpower target at 600 if you have come up with the load Via Audette test, and the charges are within 0.5 grains, and the bullets within 0.3/4 grains and case weights (in 223) within 2.0 grains. Anything over and the groups can open up too much. Finding hunting bullets within that .3/.4 grains is pretty easy on average.

Jeff

rost as I stated in the previous post the weights were "the least of the trouble I have with them."
The statements made by the person a winchester were both not customer friendly and just plain rude!!

I did find Hornady's bullets to be within .10 of a grain throughout the ENTIRE box of 100. I hold my loads of powder to exact weights measuring every single load, I weigh and group bullets and cases so they are not mixed together. Yes I am probably anal but I can be sure when I squeeze the trigger the only thing working against me is me.

So while I was new to reloading when I bought the 147's, it was the answers of the winchester employee the turned me off! There is such a thing as customer service and when I am treated like my business don't matter they don't get my business again.

Arch

Totally agree on the customer service issue with you. Been down that road a few times. Takes a good product for me to ignore bad service.

You say you are anal, how about loading reversing bullet weights/case weights by tenths.... Had a guy show me all this and his theory, I don't even recall how it worked but it was anal to the max. Funny thing is he never beat me in a match with all that work.

Nothing wrong with prepping to the max. It is both the arrow and the Indian IMHO.

The good shooters number their brass and plot shots, and if they find that on the 2nd firing say #6 is a flier just like it was in the first, regardless weight etc... that case goes to practice brass.

The unfortunate thing is that in both XC and LR highpower shooting the quantity of ammo required will not allow me to be that anal.

Where as loading 10 rounds of hunting ammo, one can do that very easily.

I"m not going back to Hornady when its crunch time due to loose tips and weight variations, but like all, it does happen to all makes, I just got burned one time at a match with a new lot pretty bad. In fact they replaced all 3500 bullets as that lot was bad....Doesn't mean the next bad batch won't be Sierra or the like.

Jeff

Jeff

OH NO ANOTHER VARIABLE!!! LOL I have not shot in many competitions, I take my shooting seriously and shoot every target as if it were going to kill me if I miss. Another one of my quirks, I do number my loads just so I know which one fails and then I check the case to see what if anything was bad. John

I only shoot long-range when I have to. That means if the landscape does not allow me to get closer. I find it more challenging and fun to get close up on the animal before I deliver the shot. It is quite a rush getting a moose on 15 meters before taking the shot. The closest I got last fall was 3-4 meters. One of the moose was standing 2 meters from me when I shot the second one following right behind it. It almost fell with it`s head in my lap. I can assure you that it was real adrenaling kick!

But when that`s said, I have nothing agains shooting animals at long ranges. But the rifle and the ammo must be suitable for the task, and the guy behind the rifle better put in some extra days on the range.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/hunsh_082106/index.html

"I'd bet most people would say that at some point hunting ceases to be hunting and becomes a clinical exercise in shooting. Where we draw the line is something each must answer for himself, but wherever that line is, it is determined primarily by distance. Most of us envision hunting as a contest between instinct and intelligence, but to actually be hunting it must be done at relatively close distances, where the hunter must employ skill and stealth to be successful. He must be aware of wind direction and that movement or noise at the wrong time can bring an abrupt end to the hunt. But when the quarry is so far away that scent, movement and noise (within reason, of course) are no longer factors, it then becomes purely a test of one's shooting skill and equipment. That's not an indictment, mind you, simply a statement of fact." - The Author

...it then becomes purely a test of one's shooting skill and equipment...NOT hunting!!!

Like the author, I believe we are all in the same fraternity, but the forum title should be changed from "Long Range Hunting" to "Long Range Shooting" for - what should be, fairly obvious reasons.

why is it that folks who don't agree with it, think it shouldn't be done, its unethical. can't refrain from coming in and running the pie hole, if you think its so bad go troll another forum.
And quoting an article which you agree with doesn't make it right, just makes it an article you agree with. If I quoted an expert with a different point of view would it be right also?
RR

Bushcraft,

Why do you come to the Long Range Hunting forum and suggest it is not hunting but shooting? Long range shooting is done during competition. Long range shooting occurs when I want to shoot at the gong 724 yards away. But the most long range shooting fun I ever had was shooting at rocks across a canyon at unknown distances. You need to learn some etiquet and how to use a dictionary.

Ringman,

Not to call your reply out as being tragically and laughably silly or anything, but you really should consult a dictionary before you start slinging unfounded insults around about the non-use of same.

Just so you know, "etiquet" (as you've misspelled it...at least before you edit and correct said misspelling) is correctly spelled:

e-t-i-q-u-e-t-t-e

What of the following is so hard for you to understand and accept?



Since accuracy is of such paramount concern to you, why not at least characterize your activity more accurately?

He nailed it, you missed.............

just another rag writer, bet he also wrote an article on what a jewel the rem 710 was
RR

Ridge Runner,

Perhaps you'll recognize these moronic tidbits...





GOOD GRIEF MAN...AN HOUR LATER?!?!? IT TOOK YOU AN HOUR TO WALK YOUR APPARENTLY FAT @SS AT MOST 552 YARDS!!!

WTF!!!

F---ING DISGRACEFUL!!!

GO AHEAD...SPEAK OUT LOUD AND PROUD ABOUT YOUR LONG RANGE SHOOTING SKILLS...BUT A HUNTER YOU ARE NOT!!!

Well for one thing, were you there? do you have any idea what, where, I had to go to get there? of course ya don't but you run your piehole anyhow.
Oh and I'm fat? Man if you only realized just how stupid you made yourself look, you know nothing, absolutely nothing, what are you a PETA operative? Have you ever been hunting? What an idiot.
RR

Bush

walk a mile man. Come on. Its taken me over an hour to get to a caribou I shot.

I know some folks that shot a mule deer down a canyon, off the top of a rim. No way to get to it without ropes, so they drove around. All 63 miles around to get to the canyon!

Don't agree with folks that have skill for longer shots? No need for all the hate. There are times and places for us all. I personally have fun doing whatever. Call it what you want. I run anywhere from a recurve and 3 yard shots to rifles and 800 yard shots so far. Have a grand time with them all. All are hunting. All require different types of skills that not many have. In all the goal is a dead animal. We take different roads to get to the same destination. If we all used the same route it would be over crowded.

Whats teh big deal?

Jeff

Ridge,

I'm a big fan of wild red meat. I've got a freezer full of it taken by my own hand and carried out on my own back. So, PETA operative I am not. In fact, I'd have your back against them or any other anti-hunting outfit, but I'd also be content to scrap with you with regard to what I believe to be a more accurate characterization of your activity. Again, what you are doing is not hunting. It is shooting at what just happens to be something living. Nothing more, hombre. Trust me...I know how to shoot. I know how to hunt. And I know the difference between the two.

As far as the piss poor, scratch that...NO EXPLANATION...of why it took you an hour to get over to the doe from your rest on the shoulder of the four lane interstate...C'mon...I've been back East a number of times...which is where I gather you are from since you are allowed to take that many dog sized deer. Nothing against your flora and fauna, but your terrain if FLAT in comparison to the areas we hunt out here in the NW. So, if you couldn't get to the spot you shot that doe in over and hour...yes, I'd surmise that you must be overweight, out of shape, lazy or just plain unethical.

You are welcome to look me up on Kifaru, or here on 24Hr. if you like. I have many friends that can vouch for me. You are also welcome to come out here and try to stalk in close with me on some highcountry mulies, elk, sheep, goats and bear. I'd be happy to teach you a thing or two about hunting with bow or rifle miles from the nearest remote trailhead. And, perhaps you could teach me a thing or two about shooting.

You delude yourself.
Why would anyone trust you when you have no credentials.


You deliberately insult anyone who doesn't happen to agree with your conservative philosphy.

You set your self up as some kind of expert as if none of us know anything about getting close to animals when we have all already proven this on the thread. You remind me of the last guy. Just can't quite accept that we already know how to do the stuff you do.

You have no point other than to continue to make the same statement over and over irregardless of the facts.

The only delusion occuring here is when people refer to their long range shooting activity as "hunting".

Anyone with an IQ hovering above room temperature should be able to understand and accept the obvious differences between a surgically precise shooting activity whereby there is absolutely no way an animal could suspect your presence and hunting. Long range hunting is not a hunting activity...it is a merely a shooting activity.

And no Bob...I'm not insulting anyone who doesn't happen to agree with my conservative philosophy...again, just pointing out the obvious (at least to anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand or very firmly planted up their backside).

Bob

Bush has credibility with me. Might have a different "tone" on the net than I do but thats about it, for those that have been there/done that, Bob is with us.

Jeff

Bushcraft,

I expected to get some flack for spelling errors. I flunked the forth grade for not getting it right then. I still know I don't get spelling correct now. But I don't go to forums I disagree with and male antaginistic posts.

Since you know so much, though, why is it you don't practice a modicum amount of your vast knowledge? Could it be you are like me when I was a teenage and read all kinds of magazines about hot rods and didn't know the first thing about working on them?

Thank you Rost.

Ringman,

Given your "vast knowledge" statement, I can only infer that you are insinuating that I must think I know it all. I'll be the first to admit that I don't. I've never said that I know everything. That being said I have a pretty decent foundation for learning more of just about anything I wish and aggressively learn/practice new things that will improve my life and the lives of those I care about.

Paramount to the learning process is being able to discern differences. Correct from Incorrect. Black versus White. Up versus Down. Hunting from Shooting.

As I've said before, there is a none too subtle difference between a surgically precise shooting activity whereby there is absolutely no way an animal could suspect your presence and a hunting activity.

I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that I don't practice or know anything about long range shooting. I never said I didn't. I've also never said I know more about long range shooting than anyone else on this thread. One of my favorite rifles is one that a very talented local gunsmith did some excellent work on and I enjoy loading up and printing some very fine groups with it at varying distances. After all, that's part of the attraction of owning a fine shooting rifle, right? See what she'll do! See what you can do! Shooting a steel plate at 500-750 yards is fun and fulfilling. Experiencing the abusive CRACK overhead when in the pit downrange watching tiny groups develop is awe inspiring. It takes a bit of learning behind a rifle and a willing/knowledgable coach to help you get there. Spotting contrails, for example, really helps a fellow gain an understaning of how wind, distance and elevation gain/loss to target affects the final placement of a round. It also makes one realize just how long it can take a round to strike a target...and realize all the crappy real world stuff that could occur between pulling the trigger and the strike of the bullet on target a long ways out there. Same applies to arrows by a factor of 10.

Heh, Non-Aristotelian Logic obviously wasn't part of the learning process. I've got something to learn from everyone and I don't much care how its named. Life is a bunch of rheostats, not a bunch of switches.

I'll be the first to admit I have been guilty of "shooting" game instead of "hunting." The last time was two seasons ago when I took a medium sized buck.

....at 40 yds from a treestand. First and last time for that. Blasting a blindfolded fish out of a barrel would have been more fulfilling. In my opinion, calling that "hunting" because it was at close range is not logical. No offense to stand hunters intended, that just didn't do it for me.

Contrast that with this season's buck, taken from 473. He was spotted at over 700 and I closed the distance crawling on my belly in a ditch as far as possible. The wind was strong enough to make the shot challenging at 473, but doable. Now that was a hunt. It might come as a surprise to some who have never been out of the woods, but animals can "suspect your presence" at quite a distance, depending upon the terrain. I've seen both deer and antelope begin flight upon spotting orange close to a mile away--especially when they've had lots of hunting pressure. Walking would have been much easier than crawling in a ditch...but even from 700+ I would have been spotted and he would have been gone in an instant.

To characterize the first as "hunting" and the second as "shooting" simply because the first was at a closer range is quite myopic. Had the terrain layout differed and there had been less wind putting the final shot even farther...wouldn't really matter to me. The story and the feeling of the successful hunt would remain. I've had most excellent "hunting" experiences at very close range as well. Just as good, just different.

But for certain individuals, once you go beyond "X Range" (whatever that may be as they all pull a different one from their posterior) it suddenly becomes less worthy than the "fish in the barrel" shot from a stand for that reason alone.

There's no logic in it, only emotion and ignorance.

Bushcraft,



I was not refering to your shooting, I was refering to you being polite.

+1

well bush, I'll tell ya, I'm not fat (5'10"/165) or lazy I work 2 jobs, 6 days a week in the off season, yes I hunt in the east wv/va, and for 30 years I hunted as you describe it, find the trails travel corridors and put up stands, shoot'em at 50 yds. just about the simplest thing you could possibly do if you understand anything at all about game. after all here you get in the right place all thats left is pick the one deer out of 100 give or take a few of the deer you see that day. sound like a challenge? that what gives you a thrill, if this is what you live for I'm sorry. I have a family to support so the exotic hunting trips are out for the time being, so I put as much challenge into what hunting I have as I can.
I'll reiterate what you said, you come here, I'll show you how simple it is to place yourself within 50 yds of any deer you can find, but after 30 years it gets boring, so I made a choice, wasn't your choice, what I do is legal, and in my eyes, the way I do it is ethical so I don't really need to answer to anyone for it.
Now it was a 3/4 mile walk around the top of a ridge to retriev the doe which I shot at 532 yds, yes I could have taken a closer shot, but chose not to, with that rifle, I can hit a 4" circle just about everyshot at 700 yds, so it wasn't a diffacult shot, with that in mind what is the problem with shooting a deer that far? I can hunt the close cover but choose not to, and you start insulting me, whom you don't know anything about. I don't know you, don't want to at this point, I come to this forum to learn and share experiences on LR "hunting" not to discuss ethics, if you don't believe its right, why are you here? I don't condemn you for not hunting like I do, so how about the same courtesy?
RR

Whoa...I don't have a beef at all with killing an animal at 700 yards and I'll stand right their with you to defend anyone's right/priviledge to do so. I don't have a beef with guys that sit in a tree-stand all day and whack a deer at close range either. That would bore me to tears since I prefer the challenge of stalking them on the ground.

My issue is with semantics and why it is so hard for some to understand and accept the differnce of shooting at something that has absolutely no chance of discovering or detecting your presence as a hunter. That's not called hunting in my book...again, it's simply a shooting exercise.

Check this out...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...&topic=0&Search=true#Post1260824

Bushcraft

I'm with ya mostly bud! But the end result is a dead animal. Once you start giving parameters its hard to say what is and isn't challenging. But it is your choice of wording. I"ve said it before, if you feel better about using shooting instead of hunting to get to a dead animal fine. Just be aware that the skill it takes to shoot a long shot is equal to or harder than it is to get to whatever you define as closer.. and hunting.

Jeff

Rost,

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one...witness the length of time required to gain proficiency during a sniper training course (the Army's SOTIC course for example is a mere 6 weeks - not all of which is related to time behind a rifle) versus the number of years it may take to master the habits/abilities of one's prey and all the other environmental variables.

Allen

I don't understand the statement "I coud have taken a closer shot, but chose not to" especially followed by "just about every shot."

What I hear is that there is a chance that you are going to be a bit off target and yet you passed on the closer shot and therefore increased the risk of wounding an animal.

I don't disagree with long range hunting. I understand that there are situations due to terrain and what not that make it the only option. I am neither saying that I wouldn't take a long shot if I needed to.

I have said it before. I understand enjoying challenges. I don't understand why one would pass on the closer more certain shot intentionally increasing the chances of wounding an animal.

We have all been through the capabilities of some of the shooters/hunters on here. I don't want to go down that road again. I agree it is some amazing stuff.
My question has only been about why pass on the close one to intentionally increase the risk of wounding.

I would venture to guess that if it were a buck of a lifetime, you would have thrown lead at the first chance. That must mean that it is ok to increase the chance of missing/wounding a doe.

Allen

Sniper school shooters are not nearly as good as a well trained long range shooter. I've seen them come over from sniper to the marksmanship units, while good, they are not great. Great takes years. Just like hunting.
Plus their training, is day in day out, all day, which is only relative to hours, IE no one I know of could "hunt for 6 months straight trying to learn, and if they could, well they'd be pretty good. I guided for almost 2.5 months, every day, for a few years, I'd be a bit rusty but by Jan 1, I could walk around and get up within bow range of deer pretty easy. BTW I've talked to marksmanship unit shooters of equal or better shooting skill than I have, that have gone to sniper school. Backing this up, the accuracy requirements are not that great. IE simple for them to pass. Other field crafts in the course, depending on their background, differ.

Cacciatore
I'd personally have taken a closer shot also, but I have no issue with the shot not being there but waiting till it is, I recently let a doe go, had her well under 200, but by the time the shot was right she was close to 300. Had to change the mentality from head to body shot though due to terrain messing with my position.
I think you are mistaken about the almost every shot issue on a clay also. Clay is the size of a heart. If he'd have said almost every on a 12 inch steel, thats another situation. I also don't think some folks understand how still and stable practiced shooters are. I've been put on a laser trainer prone wiht a sling and iron sights-- my wobble is just under .5 moa. With bipod or better yet backpack its under that. Thinking to what I've seen on ranges on sight in day again.... Folks sighting in and happy to keep the shots on a paper plate or beer flat at 100 off BAGS!! And they actually shoot AT deer.....

Regards, Jeff

I saw deer that day anywhere from 375 yds to over 600, this deer fit the desription of what I was looking for, and offered what in my opinion was the best shot of the bunch, was gonna take a yearling doe at 389 but once I got the rifle set up< I never saw her again, she was there, just couldn't find her. The week before I did take a 375 yd shot on a bedded doe, she had her head curled around her body, POI was just under the eye, exactly where I was holding, the accubond exited, re-entered behind the shoulder, double dead if thats possible, I know the doe bedded beside her never got up till she smelled blood.
Oh and bush, in these steep lil ridges I hunt in, you can set up downwind, and after sunrise the thermals take care of you, I've taken shots from 9 feet without the deer having any idea I was there, your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me, if a deer knows your there, they wouldn't be.
Oh and my shooting ability, well I can and have on numerous occasions, started from a 100 yard zero, in a 6-9 mph wind, dialed my scope to a first shot from a cold bore POI within 2-3" of POA and shot a 1 7/8" 3 shot group out to 700 yds. I'm not a great shot but I do practice alot and have one exceptional rifle, don't have no idea how my smith does it, take a cartridge with 122 gr of H2o capacity and make it shoot that well.
RR
RR

"the accuracy requirements are not that great"

I agree on that. They've pretty much just started down the extreme accuracy road if they haven't done a lot of it beforehand.

I take it you have never hunted over a big field of winter wheat?

Too interesting. I am not a long range hunter.......because.........I don't possess the skills to shoot that far. If I did I would be!!!


Be it 70 yards or 700 yards you hunt your way..........others will hunt theirs!


This isn't the place to rain on ones parade!!!

Last night at work my boss informed me that he shot his kudu while it was running, and he was in a moving vehicle from a distance of 573 yards. Is he the greatest or what? He says he shot it "freehand". I was so impressed.
I normally use a rest of some kind to make a shot at half that distance.
whelennut

Cacciatore,
I could show you some places in Minnesota where you cannot see five feet in front of you and can hardly walk it is so thick.
This is where the big deer go after opening day. I could not even get a pistol through there. So it is better for me to sit on a power line right of way and shoot at them as they go across. I learned this from my father-in-law. These deer are usually walking but sometimes running. I am not fast enough to hit the running ones because the right of way is not very wide.
I have made shots that infuriate my brother in law because he say it is to far. (I made the shot though)
He has a cheap rifle and a cheap scope and he never practices.
So it is to far for him.
I have a custom barrel on a Model 70 with a target scope on it.
I have put many rounds through it at measured distances and I know the trajectory. I only take shots that I am confident that I can make. They have not all been clean kills but taking shots at 50 yards in the swamps at alerted and running deer would not all be clean kills either. Somebody tell me how you can be certain that every bullet goes as planned when there are trees in the way and the deer can move at any instant. If it isn't moving already. My brother in law and I have almost gotten into a fist fight over this several times. He came really close to losing it one year when I paced off a kill at only 225 paces?
We had a lady miss a deer at 20 feet this year with her 30-30.
A friend of his I might add. I took one at 300 this year. It was
the only shot I had all season. For me that was a long shot but I don't have a problem with the guys on this board if they take shots at twice that distance, more power to them.

And used no holdover either cause the moving vehicle offset the drop....

Whelen,
I have hunted in the easter part of Minnesota many times with pumpkin throwers. I am originally from LaCrosse, WI and do most of my hunting in that county. It seems almost everything around LaCrosse is steep and thick. So i'll pass on the trip to see some thick places. I have unfortunately grown up being told "you go walk up that ridge and through that brush......and don't make a big circle around it.....go through the center." I used to carry a 20ga Remington 1100 with a short barrel and trimmed stock in case one were to get up and lick me in the face.....I hated carrying it. I would have been better off in my old football spikes and something to cover every inch of my body. I still have scars from some of the berry bushes. In fact I have had to wear a patch for 3 weeks after getting a scratch on my eye.
I also shoot IMO decent equipment....7mm WSM A-bolt with a 3-9x50 Leupy on it and I practice quite often.
I have made some longer shots and some short shots.
I also never said that I that anyone can be certain everything is going to go as planned. My point was only to understand why someone would intentionally wait for a longer shot to increase the difficulty when they were presented with a closer more certain shot.

Here is one I took in 96' in Minnesota with a 12ga pumpkin thrower. I love hunting the rut there.

NICE buck.
Jeff

Thank you sir. It was a fun hunt.

Dragging is 218lbs field dressed butt out of the woods wasn't though. Luckily that was when I was in good shape or I still may be dragging 11 years later.

Cacciatore,
Nice buck! I was just trying to explain that to some folks in Northern Minnesota 300 yards is a crazy long distance poke and hope. Mostly because they buy the cheapest equipment they can find at a discount store and never practice at all. ((or very little) I wouldn't wait for a longer shot myself but maybe they are bored and want to challenge themself. I don't understand why people wait to get one with bigger horns because where I hunt you may only get one chance all week. It is different everywhere.
I know people who never got a shot all season and were very jealous that I got one little doe.
I try not to condemn anyone for the way they hunt if it is legal.
We need to stick together if possible.
We had a fourteen year old shoot one a mile south of us that dressed out at 256 lbs. (I'm jealous)
whelennut

I did not intend to condemn anyone. I am all for sticking together....or I wouldn't bother coming on here.
I don't have a problem with long range shots if the person is comfortable with them. I just didn't understand the logic behind passing on the closer one for a longer one.

I apologize if it sounded like I was condemning it. I would never tell anyone they should think as I do or feel as I do. I just didn't understand.....call me thick.

We have to remember, and I am/was guilty, heated debates over keyboards are such. I can't see your face, expressions, tone of voice, we can't continually carry this conversation on face to face, by the fire, most things would resolve with a few laughs in the end.

Cacc, ain't been in WI or IL in a number of years. I remember I was in Janesville WI in taxidermy school and saw a "big doe" on the way to Gander Mountain years ago, being from TX wanted to see the store. Thought the doe was big.... local guys laughed and called it a fawn or yearling. Sure enough about that time, a "doe" stepped out. We have some dog deer here, its the size they need to be to survive, yours are the same way. They are large for sure. Best I ever shot was down south, rack wasn't much(I never see a good set of antlers seems.... and can't afford to hunt the good areas anyway....)but he was 224 gutted. That deer was big to me. 300wtby 180 partition, the neck stopped the bullet!! I had to shoot him again with a handgun to finish him..... PS wouldn't have to shoot 4-6 deer for sausage if they were your size either...

Jeff

I hear ya. For the record, I would never get into a heated debate on here......debate sure....but never heated. I enjoy hearing others experiences, ideas, knowledge, etc. When I don't understand something, I ask.


224 is a big deer.
We do have some big deer where I hunt back home. I shot a 168lbs field dressed doe two years ago. I had to look twice to make sure it wasn't a buck.

bushcraft,

Your analogy is weak at best....

The sniper course while difficult and challenging is not all based on accuracy. Shooting is only one requirement to pass the course. Remmber the weapons they use are built by master armorers and are capable of holding a required 1 MOA typically better. However, they are using factory match ammo while good not the best.
LrHunters are using custom rifles built for the purpose and using handloaded ammo that has been tuned, fine tuned and retuned, to achiee optimum accuracy.
To be an accomplished LRhunter you need years of practice in all types of situations and conditions.
So easily does the ignorant public view LRhunting as buying the biggest magnum you can and sitting upon a hilltop trying to throw lead as far as you can.
Years are spent understanding and learning ballistics and how it affects bullet flight and the charactieristics of downrange perfomance. No easy task and there is new information all the time. I will easily go on record and say most LRhunters are as accomplished as any SRhunter. More often that not have a better understanding and put to use a practical application for true bullet perfomance and ballistics than most SRhunters.
I will also go on record and say most LRhunters spend way more time yanking triggers and fine tunig their shooting techniques and skill than most if not all SRhunters. I have met very few ( keep in mind I have guided for years and now own an oufitting business )SRhunters that have an understanding of what a bullet does past 300 yards and very little if any idea what ballistics are and how a rifle and it's components really work together to achieve accuracy.
You call it what you will Shooting or Hunting.
I will go again, on record and say that most if not all the LRhunting friends I have spend just as much time afield scouting and paterning/learning the habits of their intended quary as any other type of hunter. Again we just don't go look for the spot with the best vantage point.
Ignorance is bliss...
maybe you and a few others should take some tme a get to know a LRhunter. You might just find we have more in common with the SRhunter than you think.

Your boss is either one of the best shots in the world, extremely lucky, or tells really good fish stories

Your rebuttal, while lengthy and almost entirely tangential (while remaining true to the core statements made by so-called long range "hunters"), skirts the concept of shooting at something that has absolutely no chance of discovering or detecting that it is being hunted...thereby merely reducing the activity to a shooting exercise. Sure you've got to know some basic habits of the animal you are shooting at (hopefully), but you might as well be "hunting" a steel gong, a paper target or the far of freshly laid cowpie.

Now, if you really want to sharpen your hunting skills or increase the challenge...take up a spear!

Not my balliwick mind you, but there is a fellow hereabouts that has been doing so succesfully every year for some time now...with deer and elk...on the west side of our state - which has some of the thickest underbrush found anywhere.

He's kind of a brute of a fellow and I find it humorous when everyone takes their bragging about "bow hunted this" to "rifle hunted that" when he walks in the place.

Bush/Wyo

Allow me, if I may, to jump in here. I've got a spear, a few bows, and a few long shots to say the least under my belt....

The deal here with some folks is that they insist they are holier than others in the definition of the word hunting and that at XYZ yards its no longer hunting. Thats fine with me. A bit anal IMHO but still ok.

What I insist on though, is that the skill level to each "extreme" end is the same, with the skill of the long shot, again IMHO being harder to come by.

I say this and have no spear kill yet, haven't really tried it more than 2 times. But I say it having a recurve kill at 3 yards on the ground, not in a tree... The years it took to get that kill were fewer than the years it took me to learn longer shots and the conditions that go with that skill. I've put in a LOT more time shooting, than "learning" to hunt. I've got much more success hunting much quicker than it took me to understand 600 yard shots to the point that they became chip shots. 1000 is still not totall perfect but getting there.
I'll also add that I can quit shooting at times, and when I come back I'm rusty but ok generally. When I quit hunting for 10 months waiting on th next season, I fall right back into the groove as good as the last season. Of course there are, IMHO, many more things one has to know to shoot vs the few things one needs to know to "hunt"

Call er what you feel best with, black rifle, hunting rifle, assault weapon or whatever, skill is still required. Hunting or shooting is just a word.

Jeff

So, let me get this right. Your goal is to let the animal discover it is being hunted so as to give it a fair chance? Not sure if you realize this, but that often leads to a running animal, which would mean a running shot, which is really not the best scenerio. This also reduces your activity to shooting excersize.

While a marginal attempt at discrediting my rebutle. Your saying that every tree stand hunter is participateing in a shooting excersize as well. Afterall, isn't that what treestands are for? You know, setting youself above the line of site dressed in camo (save the orange requirement) and hopefully lofting your scent above the animals detection as well? All in an attempt to insure the animal does not know your are there. Hmmm, kinda like....

So what is your point really? If there is one. Or, maybe you just wanted to be heard. Which only shows that you arn't here for anything constructive, just to be confrontational. Which is again, weak at best, because you're ignorant about LRhunting as your parallels are weak.

Did the deer he was hunting have a gun or something? I failed to be impressed. I see nothing difficult about killing a deer with a spear. I would assume a large percentage of us who bowhunt have been close enough to do it many times.

What the guy does is no different from what any of the rest of us do. He takes a particular aspect of hunting and works hard to refine his skills to the level necessary to succeed.

rost495,
As far as I know it's not illegal so I am all for long range shooting/hunting. You can only watch a trail for so long. Anyhow I want to see if I can take a big buck next year and I think my best bet is getting where I can see a long ways and then take the shot. Near or far. Instead of arguing about right or wrong,
how about answering a question for me? I think I remember you refering to the 7mm Magnum as NOT on the cutting edge of technology. OK, what is your choice for cartridge and what bullet weight would be ideal for deer up to 250 lbs? Say your shots were limitd to a maximum of 600 yards because of adjacent privately owned property. My first choice would be 7mmMag with 160 Sierra BT because I have one already and it works.

Because I can't sing or dance....Let it go Ric...These guys don't have anything better to do then worry about what we do....I think they should go out and shoot more.

You know all their supposition is just that, the description of "hunting" according to Webster:

hunt: "to chase or search for(game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing."

hunter: "a person who hunts game or other wild animals."

hunting:"the act of a person or thing that hunts."

Therefore anyone who steps into the woods or a field for the expressed purpose of killing wild animals is hunting. There is nothing in the definitions about distance! No bias of feelings, ability or the lack thereof.

Whelen

IF I dinged the 7mm, its only some reference to the rem mag version throwing a flier now and again at 1000 yards, such that it was not explainable and after talking with a LOT of 1000 yard competitors the consensus is the 7mm wasn't quite tehre, go 6.5 or 30 cal. for highpower.

That being said, I'd be totally happy to 600 with a 308. So no reason not to use your gun. I would be thinking just like you. 160 or 150 tsx/x type bullet. I've seen more than 1 elk dumped at over 40 with 140 x bullets from 7 mags... they work good enough.

I think you are set, I'd worry about the load and drift/drop charts and pratice. And a rangefinder/wind speed meter and practice.... You should be set. Be aware I'd doubt you'll get more than 1500 rounds of barrel life from the big seven. but IMHO you need to burn a barrel or two anyway till you really learn some things.... depending on your background...

Jeff

rost495 I agree with your acessment of the .308 and the bullet of choice, the only fault is the person pulling the trigger. Therefore with enough practice and a good rifle the possiblities are nearly limitless.

Jeff,
I used to shoot with a retired farmer/meatcutter named Rudy Wadekamp. He shot a 308 at 1000 yds. Well enough that he was invited to jolly old England to shoot. I learned a lot about 600 yards by being on the firing line next to his daughter and I listened to him coaching her. I asked him once about why he didn't use a 300 Magnum at 1000 yards. His answer was that you still need to learn to read wind at 1000 yards its just twice as much with the 308 Winchester.
He used to rebarrel his rifle every year.
I have heard that the 6.5 shooters do the same thing.
The hunting pressure is so intense where I hunt that I wouldn't have time to use a rangefinder. However on the power line right of way the poles are about 200 meters apart. I have managed to kill some between the second and third pole so far. They will not hold still and bullet placement is challenging to say the least. That is what makes it interesting for me. I like the 7MM Magnum because bullet energy is adequate even at 400 yards. Even more if you can get a stationary target.
Just learning,
whelennut

I know the name of Rudy!!

The rangefinder is only used to figure it out. IE mostly ahead of time. And if time allows furtehr on out. Last hunt, I forgot mine but was on same kind of ROW. 300 foot pole spacing. Made it really easy and quick.

Take your 7mag and shoot. Thats the answer!! The last yaers I shot, I was running 223 and those barrels last a bit longer than 308 soemtimes, the only way I made it through a year is that I have 3 uppers, practice, short range matches,and the real thing. The real thing might last 3 years as I burn the max rounds in the otehr ones. I probably averaged 2 barrels a year in truth and lots of that because I shot a 22 upper a LOT in the yard...

Jeff

Jeff,
Once I asked Rudy if he was a hunter and he said no. That suprised me and I asked him why not. His answer was that it wouldn't be challenging enough. I have heard he liked to take a poke at fox once in awhile though.
What is your opinion of the 6.5 x 284 for 1000 yards? Barrel life?
whelennut

Thats interestingly why we get in these pissin matches. Its just no challenge for the normal range shot any for a highpower shooter of good skill....

I'd do a 6.5x284 for 1000 yards, expect 1500 rounds barrel life of top accuracy. I don't know that there is a better option out there. I always liked the 7mm BCs but a LOT of folks have tried everything 7mm up to STW and keep reporting unexplained fliers. Maybe one of 20... enough to loose the match for sure. Only thing that impressed me enough to maybe try is the 7 wsm in 7mm. Its set the 1 mile record some time back and I talked with that guy a bit, I'd try it for sure. I have a bolt action needing a barrel. And a bois d arc stock off an old corner tree from our property. Wanted to do a kind of sentimental deal.... But it was all setup from a bit back and a long action 06 head size. I could have it done still.... not sure exactly what I want to do.... OTOH the 284 isn't bad, but how can you argue with all the current results?

I guess back to hunting, I started hunting, and highpower was an excuse to buy an M1A. Then to get better hunting accuracy. Finally to reach the top which I did in my estimation, I still love hunting, and while I love shooting, the hunting is a bit stronger. Mostly why I've quit shooting and gone back to hunting. But in the meantime its made me a very lethal shot....

Jeff

People do it different everywhere. I hunted in South Africa once and the farm hands asked me why I shot my animals in the lungs.
I asked them how it's done there by locals. They said that the meat hunters use a helicopter and shoot them in the head so they don't waste anything? I was using a borrowed 7x57 with iron sights and decided to stick with the lung shot. I didn't have a helicopter handy either.
whelennut

I like to stalk and out smart animals too, but when I'm hunting one of the 1000+ acre feilds I have access to I enjoy taking a longer shot if given the chace. It's not "risky", as I've seen it called in this thread, it is comforting to see my abilities put to good use, and yes I like to brag a little. Excuse me for liking to show freinds a 400yd head shot from time to time.

P.S. I've never missed a shot on big game past 250yds.