Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting LR Hunting - Why?

Cacciatore,

Think about all the bullets launched and impacted on all the game animals in just this past year alone. You WILL find that just about every bullet performed as expected and every bullet failed.

Seriously, think about it. POP showed one pic of one bullet failing. Does that mean they all have? Dave show one pic of one bullet performing as intended, does that mean they all did that?

obviously, No.

However, there have been thousands of SMK's used and in my personal experience with them none have failed and we never lost an animal. On the flip side I have seen AB's and BT's fail miserably. However, I would still use them if that was the most accurate bullet from my rifle. Just because a bullet fails one time does not mean that is the standard.

SMK's have been proven to work and work well, just as well as any "hunting" bullet manufactured.

Wyowhisper along with what you said good shot placement in some of the failures may have cause them not to and the same can be true of the opposite. With any bullet shot placement is critical as you know. Literally any bullet can kill an animal when placed correctly, while I don't condone it a person shooting a .22 long rifle could kill a deer at 100yds by shooting it in the head.

My preference of Match Grade bullets comes from reloading them, their weights are nominally the same which makes the reloads more accurate than hunting rounds with standard bullets. this is not merely a boast as I have compared them (MG) to standard grade bullets of the same weight using the same powders, primers and brass. Summing up if a bullet is inherently more accurate and with all else being constant they perform better.

Wyo, I can't say that I have experience shooting an animal with a match bullet.
I wasn't saying that the pictures shown were a perfect representation of the performance of all bullets.
I was just looking for an explanation.
I am on here to learn more about hunting and shooting (and hear a good story or two). I am not the type that believes to know all. I am the type that believes there is always more to learn and that there are always people out there know more than you.
I am just trying to learn something new, so I am asking questions.

If you guys say that you are confident with them, by all means continue to use them. Who am I to say what one can or cannot hunt with. That does not mean that I am going to run out and buy match bullets for hunting.

Because you're logical, you're sticking to hunting bullets!

Cacciatore as very few of us know eachother and therefore don't know whether or not to believe what we say here is some quotes that I found about match grade bullets which are readily available on line by. As I have only one axe to grind and that being to get the very best bullet I can for the most accurate shot possible on ANYTHING I point my weapon at.

Everything 2 Describes a match grade bullet as:

�A boat tail hollow point bullet is a match grade bullet design that uses the concept of a teardrop like shape to give it a lower drag coefficient and make it produce less turbulence in its wake. Only the base of the bullet has a boat tail like shape, the ogive is still pointed, it can also have an open tip for even better accuracy at long ranges.�
�Conventional bullet design usually make use of a flat or even concave base which creates turbulence and hence affects accuracy. The effect is not much really but when you are sniping at ranges of excess of 500 yards you need all the help you can get. �

Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition

MEMORANDUM FOR COMMANDER, UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND
SUBJECT: Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition
DATE: 23 September 1985
1. Summary.

This memorandum considers whether United States Army Snipers may employ match-grade, "open-tip" ammunition in combat or other special missions. It concludes that such ammunition does not violate the law of war obligations of the United States, and may be employed in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.
2. Background.

Sierra MatchKing 168-grain match grade boat tail For more than a decade two bullets have been available for use by the United States Army Marksmanship Unit in match competition in its 7.62mm rifles. The M118 is a 173-grain match grade full metal jacket boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet, while the M852 is the Sierra MatchKing 168-grain match grade boat tail, ogival spitzer tip bullet with an open tip. Although the accuracy of the M118 has been reasonably good, though at times erratic, independent bullet comparisons by the Army, Marine Corps, and National Guard marksmanship training units have established unequivocally the superior accuracy of the M852. Army tests noted a 36% improvement in accuracy with the M852 at 300 meters, and a 32% improvement at 600 yds; Marine Corps figures were twenty-eight percent accuracy improvement at 300 m, and 20% at 600yds. The National Guard determined that the M852 provided better bullet groups at 200 and 600 yards under all conditions than did the M118. [FNa1]

The 168-grain MatchKing was designed in the late 1950's for 300 m. shooting in international rifle matches. In its competitive debut, it was used by the 1st place winner at the 1959 Pan American Games. In the same caliber but in its various bullet lengths, the MatchKing has set a number of international records. To a range of 600 m., the superiority of the accuracy of the M852 cannot be matched, and led to the decision by U.S. military marksmanship training units to use the M852 in competition.

A 1980 opinion of this office concluded that use of the M852 in match competition would not violate law of war obligations of the United States. (citation omitted) Further tests and actual competition over the past decade have confirmed the superiority of the M852 over the M118 and other match grade bullets. For example, at the national matches held at Camp Perry, OH in 1983, a new Wimbledon record of 2--015 X's was set using the 168-gr. MatchKing. This level of performance lead to the question of whether the M852 could be used by military snipers in peacetime or wartime missions of the Army.

During the period in which this review was conducted, the 180-gr. MatchKing (for which there is no military designation) also was tested with a view to increased accuracy over the M852 at very long ranges. Because two bullet weights were under consideration, the term "MatchKing" will be used hereinafter to refer to the generic design rather than to a bullet of a particular weight. The fundamental question to be addressed by this review is whether an open-tip bullet of MatchKing design may be used in combat.
Berger Match VLD Field Testing Results
During the 2006 hunting season, Eric Stecker, Master Bulletsmith at Berger Bullets, is receiving regular feedback from hunters who are field testing the Berger Match VLD bullets. There is no better way to test how a bullet will perform on an animal than to put it through a real world hunting situation. That is exactly what Trevor Rosencranes did on a recent elk hunt. Trevor used a Berger 6mm 105 grain Match VLD to take an elk at a considerable distance. "I believe the Berger Match VLD used to harvest the elk performed exceptionally well. The bullet penetrated the chest cavity and had enough energy to decimate the lungs of the large animal. Berger's dedication to superior long range accuracy makes shots like mine possible." said Trevor Rosencranes, Cloud Peak Gun Works.

The VLD (Very Low Drag) design incorporates specific features that creates a bullet with a higher than normal BC. The primary design feature is a secant ogive. This sharp nose shape (secant ogive) allows the VLD to shoot flatter and be less affected by the wind. Berger also discovered that the secant ogive gives the VLD bullet the ability to penetrate from 1 to 3 inches in the animal before it starts to expand. The VLD�s delayed expansion allows it to open up deep inside the organs creating a devastating wound channel. This massive organ damage is too much for an animal to handle which leads to the animal dropping fast.

Thank you for the info.
Have you heard of anyone hitting the front shoulder blade of an elk or large game animal with one?
Do you think it will break up immediately or punch through and maintain its penetration?

Match bullets continue to get snagged on hype. Just because they are HP design basically. Note that Sierra lists other HP bullets capable of game shots.

In many years of shooting match bullets, sometimes loading upwards towards 20K a year with juniors involved, the one thing I"d be more scared of with the match bullet is it not opening, rather than it performing like a BT or true HP varmint style bullet.

Have not shot enough game with them to show you a moose or elk shoulder blade as I happen to choose another bullet for hunting for its better performance for ME. But I'd think of a match HP more as a soft point than an explosive or FMJ type projectile, and a much more consistently made one at that.

Jeff

To answer your questions first no I haven't heard and penetration of the should on an Elk or larger animal is certianly possible with a match grade bullet but, not the type of shot I would take regaurdless of bullet type on an animal of the sizes you are talking. You see along with using the best bullets etc I can I wait for the optimum shot and the one you mentioned would not be it. Having said all that I guess I should have added (depending on the cartridge you are using and the distance from the animal you are.)

Berger VLD are a whole different breed than Matchkings!

From their website:

The VLD bullets are proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. (Watch Demo Clip) The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate up to 3 inches before it starts to expand. This delayed expansion results in a wound channel that is deep inside the vital area of any big game. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 80% to 90% of its weight into the surrounding tissue traveling as deep as 18 inches. This results in a massive wound cavity that creates the greatest possible amount of tissue damage and hemraging within the vital area (organs). This massive and extensive wound cavity result in the animal dropping fast. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow but instead expend all of their energy right where it is most effective, inside the animal. Bullets that poke through so that they can cause a blood trail are designed to result in a hunter tracking a wounded animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a 30 minute video for $5 that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.





So unlike Sierra Matchking which Sierra (you know ... the people who design and make them) says you should NOT USE ON GAME, Bergers are in fact design to act also like a game bullet.

I personally do not like the design! I rather have full penetration and 80%-90% retention as opposed to 3 inch penetration and 80% - 90% of bullet consumption by the tissue. Nevertheless though, they are designed with game in mind also. The Matchkings are NOT!

POP I am curious, What animal on the American continent needs more than 3" of penetration to enter their body cavity and get to the vitals?

Dang near any of them depending on angle. Figure an average 150 pound whitetail deer in our country, to get through hair, hide, tissue,meat, ribs, and then into the vital cavity, that is over 1.5 inches right there. That takes into account part of one lung on a broadside shot.

Your plus is you can wait on shots. And thats fine. I often hunt with a 223 when thats the case.

When it needs to be done, you use a larger tool and better projectile. Last 2 does of last weekend were prime examples. I wanted the meat, and was running out of daylight on our last nite. Got on the 4 wheeler and road till we spotted some doe, crawled off, got in the brush and stalked them. In a hurry and as I got out into the open to get a clear shot(time is of the essence) both of them nailed me before I could settle for a shot. Was over 200 yards and both were at extreme angles. Thats where a good bullet came into play. One that killed but penetrated stem to stern at the same time.

Jeff

Ok but penetrating means just that IE punching a hole in the skin, rib and meat then hollow space then lung tissue hollow space etc etc.A .308 DIA. 168 Gr. Bullet with a MV 2700 ft/s a Ballistic Coefficent of .450 creating 2719 lbs/ft energy at the muzzle will do that at 1000yds. Note the numbers are from Hornady's 2007 Catalog and based on their 168 Gr. MG BTHP.

I agree on that issue, even saw the exact same round but fed gold medal do a job on a doe Sat AM. But I still prefer the reserve energy. The above is correct, but what about having to catch the flank on the way to the lungs. Did that once this year, had about 5 seconds to shoot or not. Good X bullet did the trick. Or the frontal angled to you where I have to bust a shoulder to get there? Did tha 2 times this weekend, excepting I was able to thread the needle easily and avoid the actual bones, but what if...

I'm with Pop on this one, you need the penetration at times, nice to have it in reserve.

Jeff

Rost495 I guess I am to pickie, I wouldn't take those shots atleast not thru the body. As I don't hunt antlers I would take a head shot. I should also mention I consider barnes tsx bullet in the MG class.

Pop,
Don't the "up to" and the "as deep as" concern you about this bullet on big game?
To me they mean that they were able to achieve these depths with a very small sample during tests.....we use the same crap at work.
So if my assumption is correct, that bullet would generally start losing that 80-90% of it weight much earlier than 3". If this is the case, it sure as heck isn't going 18" deep (which isn't a heck of a lot of penetration even on its best day).
Again, in my opinion from seeing the "up to 3"" and "as deep as 18"", it tells me that if I hit an adult bull elk rib (which is pretty tough), that this bullet is going to be in bits just a couple inches inside that animal. It may be enough to kill it anyway, but I don't get the warm and fuzzies from it.
I know you guys are remarkable marksmen and you can tell me that you avoid hitting the front shoulder, but don't tell me that you are able to consistently shoot between ribs.

I personally love finding my bullet just inside the hide on the far side or better yet a small entrance hole and a huge exit hole. My last elk had a big chunk of rib sticking out a large hole on the back side......to me that is a good bullet.

Arch

We aren't far off, I use head shots all the time. But my hunting time is very limited. Like my example. A rushed stalk, field position shot, over 200 yards, not able to take the time to calm enough to be 150% sure of a good head shot, so sometimes you take what you get. Thats why I prefer good bullets and horsepower in case its needed...

If I'm given time and options, I"ll often pass till I get a headshot. Doesn't always work. And if going out of state, I don't really want to drive 1000s of miles and take vacation, only to have to pass up a shot on an animal I want to take, regardless antlers or not.

The above doesn't mean I wont'use a match bullet, and have before, just not totally sure on them for length penetration, ribcage or head shots, no big deal.

Jeff

In all honesty probably none. Remember though I did said I prefer. As in what I like. Might not be the panacea just my preference. I like to err on the good side if possible.

Additionally as you know nothing always is the way it seems in the field. Your monster 6x6 300 lbs mule deer might look like to have the perfect stance at 300 yards, anod you might think your bullet will hit the deer totally perpendicular. If he , or you, ar of a couple of degrees this way or that way them 3 inches might not quite make it.


Moreover, I do not take Texas heart Shots but I have taken "raking" or "hard angle" shots on game. Were I not using an X a partition , accubond etc, I would not have had the luxury of tasting said trophy!

Yes they bug the heck out of me. Check out this group.

200 grain Accubond (.588 BC!) from a 300 RUM at MV of 3165 fps (95 gr Retumbo). This is a 300 yard group that measures .675". Yes 300 yards.



Most of my "long range" rigs shoot like this, or close to it with premiums! And this is what I do not understand.
1. How much tighter can this group get with match bullets? and even if it does get smaller does it really make a difference?

2. Are you willing to give up Accubond performace just to use a MK? Not me.

POP I see the issue are you shooting Winchester Ammo? I would not.

I never shoot factory ammo on game, or anything else for that matter (rimfire only). I always roll my own.
What prompted you to ask about Win ammo?